| Scoreboard |  |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Total Viewers (million) | 10.3 | 6.7 | 4.2 | 3.3 | 1.8 |
| Rating/Share: Adults 18-49 | 2.3/7 |
James Hibberd reports that Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles dropped to 3.0 million viewers and a 1.0/4 (rating/share) in the 18-49 demographic. Despite whipping the fandoms into a frenzy earlier this week when he gushed over TSCC’s DVR numbers, Hibberd is now pronouncing TSCC dead himself.
Dollhouse dropped yet again as well, last night it drew 3.5 million and a 1.5/5. Only a miracle is going to save Dollhouse, but a slightly lesser miracle is necessary than with TSCC, as Dollhouse’s 18-49 numbers are 50% better than TSCC’s.
I’ll update this post with all the Friday night broadcast shows when I see the data. (update: I’ve updated with some of the additional data below).
Full details:
coming soon, sooner or later (looks like later, but have posted an incomplete table below):
| Time | Net | Show | Viewers (Millons) | 18-49 Rating/Share |
| 8:00 | CBS | Ghost Whisperer | 11.1 | 2.6/9 |
| ABC | Wife Swap | 4.2 | 1.3/5 | |
| NBC | Howie Do It | 4.12 | 1.1/4 | |
| FOX | Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles | 2.96 | 1.0/4 | |
| CW | America’s Next Top Model (R) 8p-10p(?) | 1.76 | 0.7/2 | |
| 8:30 | NBC | Howie Do It (R) | 4.09 | 1.2/4 |
| 9:00 | CBS | Flashpoint | 9.8 | 2.0/6 |
| ABC | 20/20 (9pm-11p) | 8.4 | 2.0/6 | |
| NBC | Friday Night Lights | 3.8 | 1.2/4 | |
| FOX | Dollhouse | 3.55 | 1.5/5 | |
| 10:00 | CBS | Numb3rs | 10.0 | 2.3/7 |
| NBC | Dateline | 4.8 | 1.3/4 |
Shows are sorted by viewers in each time slot.
Nielsen TV Ratings: ©2009 The Nielsen Company. All Rights Reserved. Source Marc Berman/Mediaweek.
Definitions:
Fast Affiliate Ratings: These first national ratings, including demographics, are available at approximately 11 AM (ET) the day after telecast, and are released to subscribing customers daily. These data, from the National People Meter sample, are strictly time-period information, based on the normal broadcast network feed, and include all programming on the affiliated stations, sometimes including network programming, sometimes not. The figures may include stations that did not air the entire network feed, as well as local news breaks or cutaways for local coverage or other programming. Fast Affiliate ratings are not as useful for live programs and are likely to differ significantly from the final results, because the data reflect normal broadcast feed patterns. For example, with a World Series game, Fast Affiliate Ratings would include whatever aired from 8-11PM on affiliates in the Pacific Time Zone, following the live football game, but not game coverage that begins at 5PM PT. The same would be true of Presidential debates as well as live award shows and breaking news reports.
Rating: Estimated percentage of the universe of TV households (or other specified group) tuned to a program in the average minute. Ratings are expressed as a percent.
Share (of Audience): The percent of households (or persons) using television who are tuned to a specific program, station or network in a specific area at a specific time. (See also, Rating, which represents tuning or viewing as a percent of the entire population being measured.)
Time Shifted Viewing – Program ratings for national sources are produced in three streams of data – Live, Live+Same Day (Live+SD) and Live+7 Day. Time shifted figures account for incremental viewing that takes place with DVRs which are currently in approximately 24.4% of all U.S. TV households. Live+Same Day (Live+SD) include viewing during the same broadcast day as the original telecast, with a cut-off of 3:00AM local time when meters transmit daily viewing to Nielsen for processing. Live+7 Day ratings include incremental viewing that takes place during the 7 days following a telecast.
For more information see Numbers 101.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:02 am
ouch…
Maybe the CW need a hit show. @ 3 mill a night, it sounds like CW material XD
March 7th, 2009 at 10:03 am
I’m sure these two shows will get another season… HAHAHA
March 7th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Robert, Dollhouse drew 3.5 in the demo - not overall. As far as I read it.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:06 am
gossi, The wording is a little odd, but the 3.5 million is overall.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:06 am
you read it wrong, gossi. 3.5 million viewers and a 1.5 rating in the 18-49 demographic.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Fox should remove terminator immediatley and put House reruns in it’s slot to at least give Dollhouse a decent chance of survival:(
I do love terminator but Dollhouse is being treated unfairly having it as a lead in:|
March 7th, 2009 at 10:07 am
gossi, 3.5 million viewers.. in 18-49 is only 1.5
March 7th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Is it, though? I haven’t seen overall numbers elsewhere. He’s specifically talking about the demo numbers there.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Yeah, 3.5 in demos maybe in Whedon’s dreams. With these numbers i would pull these shows immediately. Those numbers really affect FOX’s overall averages
March 7th, 2009 at 10:09 am
no, gossi, sorry but he’s not. Just like with Friday Night Lights he means 3.8 million viewers overall and a 1.2/4 in the demographic. 3.5 million 18-49 viewers would’ve meant Dollhouse IMPROVED, not dropped another tenth.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Sorry, I got it wrong.
Dollhouse has lost just over 25% of it’s live audience since launch, then.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:15 am
It’s 3.5 million viewers, 1.5 in the demo for Dollhouse. Still going down. I know I am going to enjoy seeing the whedonites spin these numbers.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:16 am
yep, with 18-49s, it has lost 25% of its live plus same day DVR viewers since the premiere.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:16 am
I wonder myNetworkTV was third last night? (behind CBS/ABC)
March 7th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Wow, Josh Friedman really should be banned from television for the rest of his life. He drove away too many viewers with his Sarah arc, the show simply cannot recover from that.
The last episode of TSSC was pretty good, in my opinion at least. A shame no one watches it any longer, I think the show will end pretty well.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:19 am
I like the show(dollhouse) but depending on c3 ratings it could escape cancellation, this is unlikely. If next week it falls further I wouldn’t be surprised if Fox removed both shows.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:20 am
cool, Would MNTV be third due to Smackdown?
March 7th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Wow. Surprised Dollhouse’s demo didn’t drop more considering how many viewers it lost. Sad about TSCC. Everyone must have been out seeing Watchmen.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:21 am
As a Whedonite, I see no way of spinning them. The numbers are bad. I do believe that C3 might look promising and the nice DVR numbers are a (very small) step in the right direction, but Dollhouse needs to start gaining viewers, not losing them. I don’t think it can survive without at least a 1.7 or 1.8 season average in the demo, hoping that commercial viewing is really as good as some people claim it to be. But yeah: We are in need of some miracle here, no doubt about it.
I’m waiting to hear the rest of the numbers. Did the demo suffer altogether? On every network?
March 7th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Yeah, let’s blame the movies
March 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Yes, they got 4 millions last Friday.
I think fans will blame Watchmen last night
March 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
horrible ratings for both shows.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
I’m guessing Ghost Whisperer and 20/20 did just fine in the demos, but for now it is but a guess.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Yeah lasts night TSCC was a big improvement. How could these numbers be true? im not surprised about Dollhouse. ive been waiting each week for a good episode and each week i get another disaster of a episode. The quicker its axed the better.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:24 am
yeah, Dollhouse and especially Terminator are both dead. What else is new?
March 7th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Blaming Watchmen isn’t entirely crazy. It’s easily been the most anticipated movie of the year and is aimed at the same audience as TSCC and Dollhouse.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:25 am
I can’t see FOX even keeping TSCC on any longer. I think it gets pulled asap. What goes in its place? Well, if FOX is really trying to do a Sci Fi night and not just just a dumping ground for bad/ratings challenged shows, then why not put Fringe reruns there? I bet Fringe reruns gets more eyeballs in the next month than original TSCC eps will.
BTW, how are the cable channels doing on Fridays? Specifically BSG on Sci Fi and whatever airs on USA? I know that Burn Notice final got 6 mill, but I think that airs on Thurs.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Watchmen opened to $25 million yesterday and its right in the same target audience as TSCC and Dollhouse. Plus they’ll be up against March Madness in two weeks. TSCC is dead. They only way Dollhouse gets renewed is if FOX thinks its ratings are ok given how much they screwed it over.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Whatever helps you sleep at night FC…
March 7th, 2009 at 10:28 am
I sleep just fine. Thank you djm.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Andrea, Psych and Monk were doing great on Fridays before their finales. BSG has been down, but still at OK levels for SciFi. And Disney does really well with their Friday nights.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:29 am
That’s great news! With numbers that low, FOX will have to take Termitator off the air and give Dollhouse a better lead-in. I’m sure Dollhouse will improve if that happens and then… only time will tell.
And last night the Dollhouse episode was not bad at all.
Without Terminator dragging Dollhouse down, it might actually have a chance.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Watchmen is not the most anticipated movie of the year, maybr Harry Potter or Transformers 2 or Terminator but Watchmen? no
March 7th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Fringe reruns is an interesting idea, Andrea.
information for Battlestar Galactica is always in the weekly top cable shows posts (though we won’t see last night’s numbers until Tuesday and there is no 18-49 data, BSG has been around 1.7-1.8 million. USA did much better with shows like Monk and Psych on Friday, but they finished their seasons two weeks ago I think. but the data is in the archives here:
http://tvbythenumbers.com/category/ratings/nielsen-top-cable-tv-show-ratings
March 7th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Jon,
I doubt that DH gets renewed. FOX has too many pilots in development for a show that it did not care for in the first place and gets a 1.5 demo.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:31 am
I hope FOX give Dollhouse the week off on the 20th. I’d hate for it to go against the BSG finale. My nerdy head will explode.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
‘I know I am going to enjoy seeing the whedonites spin these numbers.’
The bizarre thing about this show is that it arrived pre-spun - it’s a show that’s not even DOA, but D-well-before-A.
There’s talk that ‘the network let Joss do his thing’ after episode six - they gave up, in other words. They’ll make thirteen, because they know that’ll puff out the boxset, but I suspect they’ll decide that a set where three or four of those episodes are ‘never seen on TV!’ is the most attractive option.
But, yeah, let’s have it spelled out to us that advertisers are only interested in the Dollhouse viewers and 100% of Dollhouse viewers were watching Dollhouse and that if you add the money Fox is paying itself to show the series abroad it’s actually the most successful TV show of all time.
Alternatively, let’s apply some logic. The show had trouble attracting viewers, but a quarter of the few that did tune in don’t bother any more. Because it’s not a very good show. One in four people who gave it a chance, already predisposed to like it, have given up on it. Look into your heart - is that because Dollhouse is *freaking awesome*, or could it be that it’s because it’s a bit rubbish.
Whedon fans - what if Fox decided to show repeats of Firefly (y’know, that Whedon show you actually like) instead, promising to commission more if the ratings justified it? Would you slit Dollhouse’s throat just for the *slim chance* of a few more Firefly episodes?
March 7th, 2009 at 10:36 am
FC, I think the college basketball will be a bigger deal on March 20th than BSG.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Andrea, yup FOX is getting exactly what they wanted.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:39 am
well, i guess that settles it
March 7th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Given Nathan Fillion is on ABC’s Castle and Adam Baldwin is in NBC’s Chuck, Steve, that isn’t something which would ever happen.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Thanks Holly and Robert. Too bad there aren’t demo numbers for the cable outlets. That would be very interesting to see, but I guess maybe the numbers are too low to be reported.
Still, I would think that a younger crowd are drawn to cable than, say, your typical CBS show watcher. If so, it makes what’s happening on FOX and NBC look even more pathetic.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:45 am
TravisYanan posts them sometimes over at pifeedback, but his access is a little spotty. Very few shows make it over a 2.0, but several of the major cable shows (from USA, TNT, etc.) get over a 1.5.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Robert–If you usually get your Friday numbers from Marc Berman, you’ll be waiting quite a while. He’s traveling and will not post Friday’s numbers until late Sunday. On the other hand, James Hibberd did add the CBS numbers in a reply in his post.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Dollhouse just isn’t very good. I tuned into the first three and was left very “blah” by all three, and I don’t think I’ll bother with the fourth.
I do hope Fox lets Terminator play out its story arc, but I’d be surprised if this happens. Hopefully it’ll take Dollhouse with it when it goes.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:48 am
@ Chad
I agree. That Sarah arc killed the show!
March 7th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Holly,
Some numbers were just posted on Pifeedback.
Regarding, USA–that cable network needs to be featured on what they have done right to get the outstanding numbers they have.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:50 am
‘Given Nathan Fillion is on ABC’s Castle and Adam Baldwin is in NBC’s Chuck, Steve, that isn’t something which would ever happen.’
Summer Glau’s free as of Monday, by the look of things.
And the deal is to repeat Firefly, then see how it goes. Not a guaranteed return, just another chance for it to find an audience. A slim chance of more Firefly versus letting Dollhouse fizzle out. Which would you pick?
March 7th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Andrea, They’re just the numbers from Hibberd’s post. Nothing new.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Just to be clear about something, I am a huge Whedon fan. I run Dollverse.com, which is a website which gets mentioned in the Dollhouse EPK DVD sent to press. This show has been a huge deal for me. I started the website the day the show was announced.
And - I think it’s DOA. The numbers are terrible. And the first few episodes aren’t entirely great. The C7 numbers would need to be great to keep it on the air. Watchmen is not an excuse. CBS’s MARCH MADNESS and BATTLESTAR will severely effect the next few episodes, too.
I just wanted to balance out this (often repeated) idea that all Whedonites are raving idiots. We’re not.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:54 am
I wonder if they’re going to re-edit this week’s Big Bang Theory so that the guys refer to Summer as being from “Firefly”?
March 7th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Steve, Firefly is a thing which is dead now. I don’t want it back. I’ve made my peace about it getting cancelled. FOX is a business, not a charity.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:55 am
@ Steve, i’d keep dollhouse on the air as if firefly returned to bad ratings theres the whole cancellation again but look at family guy, it could work, but i like dollhouse more.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Is the C7 ratings something new this year, or did someone mess up when they meant C3 or Live+7?
March 7th, 2009 at 10:56 am
TSCC was hurt by the fannying around they did last week with another Sarah in mental turmoil sthick. Real pity because last nights episode was excellent.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:57 am
On the source you posted, there is now CBS numbers.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:58 am
DOLLHOUSE !!!!!!NOOOOO I LOVE DOLLHOUSE
March 7th, 2009 at 10:59 am
I think the fact that Dollhouse’s numbers and the will it/won’t it survive debate are infinitely more interesting and compelling than any of the characters or plots the show currently has says everything you need to know about the show. With every episode that airs it becomes easier and easier to believe that Fox were just burying this show on Friday nights - seriously can anyone here now say they’re surprised Fox didn’t want this as the lead-in for 24? Putting it on Friday’s is the best thing Fox could have done at least here it gets to finish its run.
Having said that I still think it might be too early to throw Dollhouse on the cancelled pile. If Fox wants Friday nights to work and if the reports of a major quality upswing for the second half of the season are correct then I think the direction and momentum of the final six episodes are infinitely more important to the future of the show. If things start to pick-up numbers wise during the second half of the season when (hopefully) good word of mouth kicks in then it may if nothing else give Fox food for thought.
I will however pre-emptively concede that those are all pretty big if’s at this point but I’ll also say I don’t think Dollhouse needs a sizable miracle to stay around next year. It really depends what Fox’s mindset is on Friday nights and the show in general.
If (and again another big if) Fox believed the first half of the season was horrible before it went on air they would have expected drops and you can argue that since a 1.5 is around the number people were expecting for the pilot they may very well have been expecting to be in a worse position than they currently are. With that in mind if Fox believes the second half of the season is much better that’s what they’ll be looking at. If the numbers start to pick up as (hopefully) good word of mouth starts to spread about the improved quality then I think the show looks much more promising for a second season. But again that’s dependent on what Fox’s mindset is with Friday nights.
For the record here I’m not trying to spin the numbers, they’re bad (not as bad as they could be but bad nonetheless) my point is that I think Dollhouse is a unique show with a unique set of circumstances surrounding it and there are simply too many variables to take into account when trying to predict its future. As things stand I have no desire to see it back next year but I’m in no way, shape or form counting it out.
And since it was mentioned here’s a question worth pondering - why didn’t/don’t Fox (or NBC) pick up Smackdown? Whilst it doesn’t do blockbuster viewers Smackdown has proven to be a remarkably consistent and stable show and does do very impressive demos for the night particularly within adult males. I’d also imagine that given it airs all year round its license is going to work out cheaper than any original 2-hour block any network might throw together for Friday nights. On paper at least Fox and NBC can both make Friday’s profitable with Smackdown. It fills the two-hour block on Fox all year and NBC would still be able to air Leno at 10 (I assume he’ll be on air Friday’s) and DirectTV is going to pick up the tab for FNL again stick on after Smackdown at 10 midseason, it might even help FNL’s demos.
It struck me as odd at the time and continues to strike me as odd that neither Fox nor NBC was or seemingly is interested in Smackdown, the license can’t possibly be that expensive and even if it were I’m sure the WWE would be willing to drop it to get on to one of the big networks…
March 7th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Holly, in the THR interview, Kevin Reilly mentioned C7, I think thats where it started.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/03/05/ugly-betty-will-return-lipstick-jungle-really-dead-and-lots-more/14077
March 7th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Last night was the first time that I was able to catch the TSCC/Dollhouse combo. The funny thing about TSCC is that I really don’t feel like I missed anything by skipping the last few episodes. That does not say much for a serialized show. BTW, it was about time that Riley got terminated. I was just hoping that Cameron was going to do it.
I liked Dollhouse, but I’m not in love with it. If I was home again on a Fri night, I would tune in again….if it’s still on the air.
The numbers are just bad for both shows. I don’t think either of them will get renewed. I also don’t think that Fox is going to pull them any time soon. What goes on it place of them? Reality shows? Bring Prison Break back early? That show will train wreck on Fri nights also.
Fox is doing so well during the rest of the week, that it probably isn’t losing that much sleep over the Fri night mess that they have. They’re not happy, obviously, but not as unhappy as NBC is with most of its primetime line up.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Another thought, I don’t buy the idea that TSCC is dragging Dollhouse down. If that was true, Dollhouse wouldn’t GAIN viewers over TSCC.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Holly, Jon is correct re: where the whole C7 thing started, but to your point, I think it was a mangling of C3 and Live+7. I’m not sure a C7 exists even exists, but I’ll see what I can find out (and if Nick C sees this, hopefully he will chime in).
March 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am
@ Mike G. If a show builds on it’s lead in, even when both shows are falling people will still point the finger as to what’s dragging what down.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:12 am
“Another thought, I don’t buy the idea that TSCC is dragging Dollhouse down. If that was true, Dollhouse wouldn’t GAIN viewers over TSCC.”
That has absolutely nothing to do with it. I mean, Dollhouse gains viewers because many people don’t watch TSCC and watch Dollhouse. A lead-in it’s suppose to give some of it’s viewers to the next show, and I think Terminator isn’t doing that.
From your prespective:
Lie To Me loses viewers over American Idol.
Hey! American Idol is dragging Lie To Me down.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe not. I just can’t understand your point of view.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:12 am
The lead-in argument is as old as television and no one has ever won it either way.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Can i just chime in saying nbc actually has some good shows ecept there just not getting the veiwers they deserved.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Mike G, it’s not so much dragging it down, as it is hindering the upside. Dollhouse gains because all the Whedon fans know its on and switch to it. But thats not enough to carry a show; you need to get other people who don’t know who Whedon is but could still like the show. With TSCC getting less viewers and those viewers likely already being a subset of the Dollhouse viewers, it’s not bringing in those people.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Well, GAIN viewers from Terminator is very easy
March 7th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Thanks Robert, and did you see my earlier note about Marc Berman?
March 7th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Robert, will you post the usual table with all the numbers?
March 7th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Alex, you are right. Smackdown was consistanly getting 4 million on the CW and on MY Network TV took it over SD is getting almost the same numbers on a worst network! Imagine with the advertising of NBC or FOX i bet SD could get 5 to 6 million viwerers on Friday and the 18-49 demo would be through the roof for a Friday.
I wish NBC or FOX could read this a pick the show up, ha but i dont think they will pick it up unless the show starts pulling #s like WWE RAW then they will take a chance with the show
March 7th, 2009 at 11:27 am
NOOOOOO what the hell is wrong with people,,, WATCH DOLLHOUSE ITS SOOOOO GOOD!!!!!! WHY DONT PEOPLE WATCH…I SO SCARED FOR THE SHOW….PLEASE FOX YOU DUMB IDIOTS PUT IT ON MONDAY OR TUESDAY NOW!!!!
March 7th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Holly, I did see your note, thank you. Ricardo, I will eventually, but right now I don’t have all the show data and it could be I won’t until Monday morning when I see the actual report.
Sadly on most weekends we’re data panhandlers relying on the kindness of others.
But if you click over to the Hibberd post, he has more data, including all of the CBS shows in the comments.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:32 am
it’s more fun reading comments about Dollhouse, TSCC, and Knight Rider then it is to watch any of the shows. How depressing.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:35 am
I’m sorry that TSCC is tanking out. At least Dollhouse is tanking too so when they both get cancelled we can at least use the excuse that it was cause they were aired on friday…lol…Easier than the truth…Personally I think that the show died back in the fall when it was paired against so many other shows, and the action and high energy was apparently written out as compared to the first season…Last night was much better than the last 2 weeks but it’s just too late now.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:37 am
I confess, Dollhouse has grown on me to the point where it’s more fun for me than the comments.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Robert,
i haven’t watched the last nights episode yet. I’m sure it’s gotta be better then last weeks she’s a backup singer crap.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:41 am
i think dollhouse is getting more interesting!! I was happy to see echo finally not be the hero!!!Can’t wait for next week!
March 7th, 2009 at 11:44 am
I’m wondering that if Flashpoint comes back next season if it switches times with Numbers.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Smackdown! was probably the real star of last night’s ratings. They had a lot of Raw superstars on there and their cooking heading towards Wrestlemania.
MyNet doesn’t get into every home so their ratings are even more outstanding.
If MyNet reached third place on a Friday Night then I would suggest the big brother FOX step in and let Smackdown! air on its network all the way through Wrestlemania or pickup some special airings for the summer where MyNet gets pre-empted heavily due to baseball.
I guarantee Smackdown! gets at least 5-6 million viewers over there on FOX plus its cheap so what does FOX have to lose?
March 7th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Dateline: 4.80 million viewers
CW: 1.8 million viewers
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2009/03/cbs-posts-biggest-numbers-friday-with-ghost-whisperer.html
March 7th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Jimmy I definitely think Flashpoint will be back since its the cheapest scripted show on all of television but I think it needs to switch slots with NUMB3RS or if Cold Case moves to Fridays then have Flashpoint comeback at mid-season behind a good lead-in like Hawaii Five-0 or NCIS spin-off.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am
robert, last night at the CW was ANTM (R)?!
March 7th, 2009 at 11:59 am
I’ve now watched last nights episode of Dollhouse and have to say that the show took a massive step forward in quality last night and was by far and away the best episode to date. Maybe its not a completely lost cause…
I still think NBC and/or Fox need to take another look at Smackdown though, especially given how well its been doing on MyNetworkTV.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Cool, Victor, thanks for the links. I’ve made all the updates that will likely be made today.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I hope for both shows sakes they go up in the demos next week, but i think people are throwing the towel in and dvring them, not helping the shows but more or less murdering them:(
March 7th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Awwww … bummer about TSCC. What a great episode.
And Dollhouse was better too.
I don’t know what was wrong with FOX that they ever gave Friedman permission to spend so many episodes on such a flat concept.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
fox needs to eliminate tscc before it takes dollhouse below 3mil if fox replaced tscc with prison break,house reruns or even 5th grader dollhouse would have upto 6-7m lead in.
prison break would get 4-5m
house reruns - 5-7m
5th grader - 6+m
because dollhouse is a demo heavy show only the prison break is just as good a lead in as the other two.
i love tscc but its sinking fast. maybe fox should move it to sundays at 7 (an unwatched slot on fox) or hold the eps till the summer.
dollhouse has potential but cant achieve it because of foxs bad schedule.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
What’s wrong with people ? I think TSCC is a great show. Hopefully they don’t terminate it. Don’t know about this Dollhouse stuff but it doesn’t sound like much to me.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I’m pretty sure Fox gave up on TSCC a long time ago and stopped caring one way or the other about the creative concepts and storylines.
As far as Dollhouse goes, I’m hoping this weeks episode was the turning point. As I said having now watched it episode 4 represents a sizable step forward quality wise for the show. Its still not amazingly good but the concept seems to have settled in a little more and everyone involved seems to be finding their feet. I’m still unsure about the cast, Eliza Dushku still gives the impression of being out of her depth and whilst I’m not sure if its the writing, lack of screen time or just his performance Tahmoh Penikett is not coming out of this show well at all.
The bar was low but quality wise Dollhouse cleared it by some distance last night. Whether it can keep doing that from here on out remains to be seen but I’m feeling a little more positive about the show if not its future this week.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
If only Terminator was on the Sci-Fi Channel, then it could run another three years and, outside of this site, no article would ever be written about it without the word “hit” in front of it’s name despite the fact the ratings are so low.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
fox better open up fridays to smackdown!
fox thu
8-bones
9-dollhouse
fox fri
8-smackdown
hold hell’s kitchen only for summer time
March 7th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
I’ll also say that at this point I don’t think Dollhouse’s problem is its lead-in.
It would have haemorrhaged viewers week-on-week if it was getting an original airing of House as a lead-in let alone a rerun. Dollhouse’s main problem is the quality of the show, you can’t open any series with three awful episodes and expect people to stick around. If a better lead-in had led to a bigger audience then the drop-off would be even bigger and things would look even worse for Dollhouse.
When/if Dollhouse goes a couple of weeks without bleeding viewers and cutting its demo then we can start looking at the lead-in and suggesting that’s the problem. Until then the problem is that Dollhouse hasn’t been very good.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
bones and dollhouse would be a great combo. although i think dollhouse needs a quick fix ratingswise to survive the season and there are no spare slots on foxs schedule so the only way to improve ratings is to give it a better lead in or air a special episode after american idol.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
First post ever on here, and I have to say. I’m so sick and tired of the news posters here bashing TSCC. The show is so complex and interesting and actually makes you THINK. It just kills me that shows like The Bachelor and 5th Grader have better ratings.
It just goes to show that the majority of people would rather watch shallow crap like that. People who want to watch a compelling show watches TSCC.
And seriously, for all those people here yelling that TSCC should be removed and it’s dragging down Dollhouse; maybe your show should have better content then.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Noah,Alex, Fox told Freidman not to spend so many episodes exploring Sarah’s personality, but he ignored them, and we got 3 of the most boring episodes of the show, and this is the result.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Yep rick is either post-idol or after bones.
the dream combo would be fringe and dollhouse in the future. fringe should be stronger on its own in 2 years so if that does happen then they should’ve held back on a sci-fi show like dollhouse. the trouble is tscc was such a ratings dud that it hurt dollhouse in the process.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
One of the best episodes of Numb3rs. I really think that it should be back next season. But maybe one hour before. My favorite show.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
It would also be nice if Robert Seidman would have at least a little professionalism and stop verbally assaulting TSCC.
The extremely negative bias on this site is almost outright scornfull. Why do you hate the show so much? Did it mess with a series you liked and this is how you retaliate? By subliminal messaging everyone who comes to TVBTT to not watch?
So harsh….
March 7th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
On the Smackdown to Fox note - I’ve done a little digging and apparently MyNetworkTV pays a license fee of $700k - $800k per episode for Smackdown, which would work out at roughly half of what each episode of Dollhouse currently costs and doesn’t take into account the fact that the WWE would probably drop the license fee to get on Fox or any of the major networks. So basically Fox would be able to programme both hours on Friday night at a price that’s much cheaper than what they’re currently spending on one hour of Friday nights and would deliver consistently better ratings and demos than they’re currently seeing.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Dan, we’re looking at the shows from a purely numbers point of view here. If you are emotionally invested in a show and think it deserves to be on air even though it’s losing viewers for a network, this is not the website for you. Networks are businesses, not charities.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
“It would also be nice if Robert Seidman would have at least a little professionalism and stop verbally assaulting TSCC.”
He’s verbally assaulting the show by pointing out that the terrible numbers are terrible? TSCC has awful numbers and has had awful numbers for its entire season that doesn’t reflect the quality of the show it just means no one is watching it and its not coming back.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
It’s not Terminator that’s taking Dollhouse down, it’s the Friday slot. T:SCC is a quality SF show that would probably be better suited for a cable channel.
What really pisses me off is that Fox never really gave Dollhouse a fighting chance with this slot, while the sad, genre abusing garbage without taste or smell named Fringe got not only the red carpet but now also a second season.
If either Sarah Connor or Dollhouse get cancelled, Fox can just scratch science fiction fans off their list once and for all. If they can’t figure out a way to make enough money from their international fans, what’s the effing point of even giving any of their (good SF) shows a chance? They’re all doomed from the start anyway.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Of course the numbers went down , most of the target audience was at the movie theater watching er watchmen. Fox stinks anyway , no way is either show getting renewed on this network. Both should be on cable not main network tv.
March 7th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Sarah Connor was moved to Fridays because it did horribly on Mondays. And it shot itself in the foot by starting off Fridays with 3 boring episodes. As for Dollhouse, the show’s premise is arguably misogynistic, so I don’t blame Fox for being wary of it.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Robert Seidman wouldn’t normally quote Robert Seidman (or refer to himself in the third person), but, Robert Seidman said:
it comes down to the inability or unwillingness to differentiate between the following:
* Your show’s ratings suck
* Your show sucks
* You Suck!
and I agree with him!
March 7th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
alex thanks for your research as that price for smackdown is pretty cheap. its even cheaper than most daytime soaps and i thought it doesn’t get any cheaper than that.
fox could make a huge profit if they were to program smackdown. it would easily solve their friday night problem and they could just focus on sunday through thursdays.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Somebody said: “If they [FOX] can’t figure out a way to make enough money from their international fans”
To be clear - FOX Broadcasting Corp can’t make any money from international fans. They don’t get either DVD sales, or international licensing fees. They also don’t get international new media (download) money.
People might not like Fringe, but it’s got great numbers for FOX. This is a website called “TVByTheNumbers”. Not “TVThatILike”.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Isnt USA , a fox owned network?
March 7th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
“Isnt USA , a fox owned network?”
USA is an NBC Universal owned network.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Wow. I never thought that TSCC could get so low. This show is doing all it can to get pulled early. It’s just amazing.
DOLLHOUSE on the other hand dropped to where I figured it would at 1.5. The last episode was so horribly bad it was no wonder it would drop.
I know tons of people have jokingly said people would use WATCHMEN as an excuse, but they share the same target demos. So I think TSCC dropped to 1.0 specifically due to WATCHMEN. I wouldn’t be shocked to see that overall DVR numbers are similar to last week.
The numbers aren’t good, but they’re expected. I know FOX expected the drop to 1.5 and it’s nothing to get worried about. Get worried if the show drops to 1.4 next week. DOLLHOUSE needs to level off, and I figured 1.5 would be the spot. Then it needs to grow when the content improves in quality.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
How many times has Nick changed his mind about an acceptable level in the 18-49 demo for Dollhouse? This is turning into a bad joke.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
FOX could try Terminator Tuesday at 9pm and Dollhouse Wednesday at 9pm after AI at least once or twice before they cancel them and try a Bones, Fringe combo on Friday. It might work provided that they haven’t killed off Fringe and Bones fans with all the pre- emptions.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
He hasn’t.
As far as I can remember he’s always said that he expected the show to drop to a 1.5 and that he wouldn’t be worried unless it dropped below that. I know he’s said previously that people that he’s spoken to within Fox have an ever changing scale of how they’re rating Dollhouse and its success or lack of. But he’s been remarkably consistent with his 1.5 watermark.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
And Matt2 that’s never going to happen.
TSCC isn’t getting within a mile of a post-Idol slot and neither is Dollhouse and more importantly than that Fringe and Bones aren’t going to air original episodes on Friday.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
While I agree that the first Dollhouse episodes have been uneven and surely not great hours of television, I thought the same of the Fox “hits” Lie to Me and Fringe - and the viewers seems to agree:
What is often ignored is that these shows dropped very similar to Dollhouse in the demos:
Dollhouse: 2.0 to 1.5 (4 airings) = 25% demo loss
Lie to Me: 4.9 to 3.7 (5 airings) = 24% demo loss
Fringe: 5.1 to 4.0 (4 airings) = 22% demo loss (I used the first post-House airing as the start)
Sure, they fell a little less and started much higher, but airing behind Idol/House CERTAINLY helped that a lot. All Dollhouse got as a lead in was a failed series that tons of people have sampled and given up on over the last year. That and the Friday slot probably have discouraged a lot of viewers from ever giving it a try.
The show definitely has to stop losing viewers right now.
But I can’t imagine that anyone, especially Fox couldn’t have seen the ratings development for these first episodes coming. And according to Nick C and the promos for the 2. and 3. episodes Fox was satisfied with the starting demo.
As I said, I think that Dollhouse kinda limped out of the gate creatively, which is even more reflected in the overall viewer than in the demo loss. But if the rumors of upswing in quality from episode 6 onwards hold true, I think the show should be given a (second) chance to catch on. I’ve heard that Fringe only became really good around the last airing, which was the 14th episode (one more than Dollhouse even has this season).
However I doubt word-of-mouth only can lead to any fast and sizeable upswing before the renewal decision will be made. The series needs more viewers as its lead in, be that through House/Fringe repeats or Prison Break episodes, and a.s.a.p.!
If Fox is serious about programming Fridays, they have to let a series survive it’s first season there (did anything other than X Files ever manage that??). But I guess less than a 1.6/1.7 just won’t allow a Dollhouse renewal, regardless of Fox’s goodwill.
Therefore I really hope they show their commitment to the series (assuming that exists) now by yanking TSCC after next week (they will leave it next week to see the influence of the Big Bang Theory crossover).
But I can see problems for the series beside its immediate ratings: What should/can be paired with it, now that TSCC is clinically dead. Kevin Reilly has announced that Fox wants to skew more female, that they are happy with Thursdays (so no Bones on Friday) and generally the following holds true: If a series is successful/promising, then Fox won’t waste it on Fridays, so only leftovers are open to debate.
Dollhouse certainly has a tough road ahead.
Man, that took forever to type.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Michael, I’ve been saying 1.5 will get the show canceled if it stays there. I however fully expected it to drop to 1.5. FOX knew it would drop. I knew it would drop. I’m sure Robert and Bill knew it would drop. The question is where will it bottom out? 1.4 is truly scary bad news. 1.5 is ok as long as trends back up later in the season. It could even survive a 1.4 if it trends back up to say 1.8 at seasons end (1.8 maybe for the finale). However 1.5 was expected. So it’s not as bad as it could be.
1.0 for TSCC on the other hand was not expected.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Alex, actually I’ve heard stirrings of DOLLHOUSE still getting a post AI slot later in the season. It was about 50/50 after the premier, but I think that chance has dropped into a 33% chance. Still they’re considering it. If the show rebounds when the quality gets better the chances rise. Plus I think Abrams is even going to help promote the idea of letting it air in FRINGE’s spot once.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Nick, does FOX realize that the big drop in both shows was due to Watchmen likely? I’d hate for this to go against the shows in a big way since it is an unusual weekend. TSCC finally got back on its feet last night from a slump of episodes and I havent been anticilating future episodes this much since who knows when. Dollhouse is getting good as well.
Theory time! Isn’t it possible that DVR numbers for the shows can be pretty steady week after week (such as the same total numbers they got in the premier)? I know live viewers have dropped each week, but maybe the same amount of people do end up watching the show via DVR?
March 7th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Nick C, you have changed your story of an acceptable 18-49 demo. You just said it for yourself. A 1.5 will get it cancelled (it had a 1.5), but a 1.4 is just scary? Now a 1.4 is a survival level? “It could even survive a 1.4″
“However 1.5 was expected. So it’s not as bad as it could be.”
FOX is going to cancel this crap. These numbers are just awful. Its going to end up in 4th place in the demo behind CBS, ABC, and MNTV and 5th in viewership behind CBS, ABC, NBC, and MNTV. That is just pathetic.
Below a 1.5 is expected too. Your right its not as bad as it could be, just wait until next week when it drops again!
March 7th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Nick C, how do you know FOX may air Dollhouse after American Idol? Are you hearing your stirrings from Dollhouse fans? I highly doubt it. American Idol is 2 hours on Tuesdays and will move to 9pm this week on Wednesdays. Once American Idol is done with 2 hours, they have the Osbournes Special one day, then Fringe returns, then Glee gets a special preview. Where is the room for Dollhouse? Oh wait there is none.
March 7th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Rachel, there will always be something and FOX knew that when it moved these shows to Friday. Valentines/Friday 13th, Watchmen, NCAA BBall tourney, BSG finale, etc., etc.
The DVR numbers are not going to matter for TSCC, no matter what, even if this week more people watched via DVR than in the first week, it’s not probably going to improve the 18-49 numbers much more (so it will go from a 1.0 to a 1.5 rating instead of a 1.4 to a 1.9). They can put a House rerun there and achieve those sorts of numbers even if hardly anybody DVRs the House rerun.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Nick C, do you really think Dollhouse (still) has a chance to get a special airing?
gossi (who also posts here) said he spoke to a Fox exec and they said no regarding airing the 6. ep after AI.
And I haven’t read one positive comment about Dollhouse from Kevin or Peter, for example in the recent THR interview.
That doesn’t sound too good to me.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
I haven’t seen any numbers for Watchmen’s opening yet but I think people are perhaps over stating its impact on TSCC and Dollhouse. If the drops had come from nowhere then I’d buy the argument but that’s not the case, Watchmen or not both shows would have dropped again this week.
And RJ there’s a difference between getting a 1.5 and staying at a 1.5 and dropping below a 1.5 and staying below a 1.5 for that matter. Nick’s point is that it can go to 1.5 and maybe a little lower as long as it rebounds strongly during the second half of the season and grows the audience back to where it was for the first two episodes.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
On the subject of Dollhouse getting a post-Idol slot I stand by my prediction of it not happening. I don’t care how good the show gets between now and the end of the season there’s no way Fox gives a prime post-Idol slot to Dollhouse when it’s pulling these numbers. They would need to be truly madly in love with the show to do that and if that were the case it wouldn’t be airing on Friday’s…
March 7th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Nick, my apologies. I was thinking of the Fox execs you keep talking to who do seem to change their minds with each new episode.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Robert: I don’t understand. So even if TSCC were to get 2 million DVRs this week, bringing the total to 5 million, the 18-49 rating share would just increase based on a percent? I mean as opposed to, say those 2 million viewers having a .9 share, it wouldn’t boost the total up to 1.9?
March 7th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
RJ, I don’t change my story. You just have trouble understanding things I say. You can drop to a 1.4 if you trend up later. It’s not a good strategy, but it’s not bad.
Robert, yes, there is always something going on during Fridays. However WATCHMEN shares many of the same target demos for both shows. So a slight drop was expected due to WATCHMEN, not huge maybe a .1 in the demo.
WATCHMEN pulled $25M in the opening day, and that is a lot considering the running time of the movie. So it likely did have an impact.
Again I’m interested in comparing DVR numbers of this week to last week. I think that might tell more of the story.
Richard, I asked Kevin about it last week and he said “they were thinking about it,” but I don’t know what episode. Just one of the final ones. I believe they’d like to see the show level off or trend back up first. Which isn’t a bad idea.
I think the THR article actually pointed out the C ratings being higher and that they hadn’t made a decision yet which is a positive.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Using Watchmen as an excuse is just that, an excuse. TSCC has been regularly dropping every week. The show was a weak performer on Mondays and when they get penalized and moved to Fridays they get the bright idea to open with the 3 most boring episodes of it’s run. The drop is not surprising; the fact that FOX hasn’t yanked the show already is the surprising part.
Dollhouse isn’t perfect but it’s deserves a better lead-in and more of a chance. TSCC had it’s chance, more than once, and squandered it.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Or are you just saying it wouldn’t be likely?
March 7th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Rachel, I don’t think it has any chance at 2 million DVR viewers, in fact, if it held the 1.5 million I will consider it extremely impressive (not impressive enough to make a difference, but impressive nonetheless). Unfortunately we won’t see those numbers for over two weeks, and by then we’ll have seen two more weeks of Live+SD info.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Er, my last comment is a continuation of my previous comment.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
So if i get this correctly even with the dvr numbers for terminator fox probley has already made there decision and its probley going to be one we have predicted from the get go.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Nick, speaking of C ratings, is that C7 just a mangling of C3/Live+7 or are there really 7 day commercial viewing ratings available (and if so, do the advertisers care about them?)
March 7th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Michael, you’re just plain wrong. The FOX execs have never changed their minds. They have always expected a drop in the early episodes. To get renewal they expect it to trend back up. That hasn’t changed. My understanding of their expectations has changed. I earlier believed that a 2.0 was required (in C3s) but later found out that 1.8 was really what they’re aspiring for. This will likely be the first week where they don’t match that 1.8 in C3 ratings (it will likely end up with a 1.7).
I also wasn’t awared that it was already profitable or understand the costs and where FOX was bringing in money. Bottom line the show makes money. If it can rebound to some decent Friday numbers (for FOX on overnights we’re talking about a 1.7).
March 7th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
I asked Kevin Reilly directly if they’ve consider DH after AI, ‘cos the show gets a bit swallowed up in it’s own mythology later on. I’d be surprised if it happens.
FOX is using AI as a jump pad for “GLEE” and “OSBOURNES: RELOADED” (they’ve announced that). So they know it’s value.
One thing which hasn’t been covered with DOLLHOUSE is the matter of the sets and the cast. The cast have options, which have to be renewed by FOX. It’s chump change for FBC, so if they pass, it’s over. Casting for the four leads was done 28th March 2008.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Ah k, got it.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
And that last comment was to Robert…
March 7th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Robert, I believe that C7 statement was either a misquote or a mangling of C3/Live +7 or FOX is having data pulled for them that others don’t (which could well be). I know the people I do business with never mention anything but C3.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Dollhouse will not get an idol spot. if they were going to give it an idol spot it would have been the premiere, not episode 8 or 9. They won’t waste it on a show that can’t get 4 million viewers. They did that for the OC once, can anyone remember what the show pulled? A 6.67 or something like that. They aren’t going to waste the slot. Get over it.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Thanks Nick. I’m with Jimmy and Gossi though when it comes to Dollhouse seeming very unlikely to get a spot after Idol at this point.
As for why I don’t think there will be much improvement in the Live+7 numbers for TSCC last night versus the Live+7 numbers for 2/13 episode — there was Friday the 13th and it was the day before Valentine’s Day and there was the Friday the 13th movie. I make a couple of assumptions here: 1.) that the difference between the Live+SD and Live+7 viewing is made up of mostly people who are going out on Friday anyway, and 2.) that while Watchmen may be more in TSCC’s target more than Friday the 13th, I’ll be very surprised if it accounted for the .4 (1.4 on 2/13 vs. 1.0 last night) difference in 18-49 ratings.
I’ll be shocked if the Live+7 numbers account for a .9 improvement over Live+SD w/18-49s. I’m guessing it will still be around a .5. But even if it increases to a .6 it won’t have mattered much.
[edit] and I won’t be surprised if the increase over Live+SD in absolute terms (.5 in the case of the 2/13 episode) goes down, not up.
March 7th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Can someone tell me if there has been ant interest shown on the behalf of Direct T.V. in once again purchasing Friday Night Lights for a fourth season? I would assume that the show would be dead in the water without their fiscal support. Its a shame that the season 3 deal between nbc and direct saw the show premiere in January(on NBC) as the huge numbers watching Sunday Night Football should be canvessed heavily during game broadcasts to grow audience. I figure a football show would benefit from being on during football season. Friday Nights is the best show on network t.v. and it would be a shame if it ended now as the third season has recaptured the incredible form that season 1 possessed. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
March 7th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Nick C, Dollhouse wont go back up. It has some tough Friday Night competition coming up.
March 7th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
To be clear re DOLLHOUSE and AMERICAN IDOL, by the way - I was referring to pairing it soon (the example I gave was episode 6). They *could* pair it up later, but I don’t see why they would. From episode 6-12 it’s all mythology mythology mythology. Episode 13 is stand alone.
March 7th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Greg, we’ve heard nothing, really. We see the FNL ratings on NBC and we have seen data that suggests it averaged around 600K viewers on DirecTV, I don’t have any information on how inclined DirecTV is to continue subsidizing it, but hopefully for the fans it will be more than a 1 year experiment.
BTW, that reminds me I’m supposed to be interviewing FNL’s Stacey Oristano (Mindy Collette) on Wednesday (and that I need to do a post soliciting questions!) and I’ll of course ask her if she’s heard anything though I doubt the cast gets that sort of information filtered down.
March 7th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
from what i’ve read Greg, i’d say chances are slim
March 7th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
I think Dollhouse *could* go back up with a stable lead-in, but it won’t make any real improvements as long as it has TSCC for an anchor.
March 7th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
They should put it after American Idol. They won’t.
The only chance Dollhouse has to gain viewers is with reruns of House, Bones or Fringe well advertised.
Dollhouse is getting good. I’m a believer! Next weak it will maintain the 1.5 and then maybe it will go up slowly.
March 7th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
RJ, I believe panels more than I believe you. I’m sure it will trend back up later in the season.
March 7th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Ricardo, I don’t think Fringe reruns on Friday would help. It seems a weak stand alone. It would tank, as well, I think. Bones or House would probably work.
Nick C, and what panels might those be?
March 7th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
If FOX have already paid for TSCC episodes, wouldn’t pulling it be wasting their money for the remaining 5 episodes? I mean even if they replace it with, say, repeats of House which pull a 1.4, the lost millions from paying for TSCC episodes wouldn’t make a significant gain from a new show in the timeslot, surely?
March 7th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Sad to say but Terminator is now officially dead!
March 7th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Ben, the way TV advertising works is the advertisers pay based on what the network expects (and can convince the advertisers) a show to get. If the show gets lower than that, the advertisers are not happy and expect make-goods, which means free or deeply discounted ads. So they are currently losing money by airing TSCC. The money for the episodes was already paid, but they don’t necessarily want to throw even more money down the drain.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Kevin Reilly said that advertisers do like it and Dollhouse however. If they get enough in ads, I assume Fox will keep them on.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Greg, supposedly NBC tried to offer a similar deal to Direct TV for Lipstick Jungle and Direct TV turned them down. Now, whether that means that Direct TV regrets the FNL deal or that it doesn’t think that a similar deal would work with Lipstick Jungle is anybody’s guess.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
well what would Reilly say? Man the advertisers are so pissed right now because the shows are just a disaster right now. We’re bleeding money and we are just so screwed because they’ve done even worse than we expected?
You honestly believe he’d say that?
No. He lies his ass off just like any good businessman would do.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Rachel, it’s not a question of whether the advertisers like the show, it’s whether they are getting the ratings they paid for. They could love the show, but if they aren’t, they are going to want it made up to them.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Jimmy, except DOLLHOUSE is getting the ratings they expected. TSCC is not.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Nick, are these ratings hurting TSCC’s chances of getting picked up by Sci-Fi at all?
March 7th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Last night episode was a good one! I enjoyed it and so did my son. Was surprised Riley tried to kill the woman, too bad she didn’t! She annoys the hell out me! Loved the scenes with Cameron and John. The part where Cameron opened her skin was pretty cool too. If this show gets canceled I’m really going to miss it.
Dollhouse was a good one and I watch it every Friday but I’m not attached to it yet. These shows need to be promoted a bit more…
March 7th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Nice Ghost Whisperer ratings…for all the hate I hear fans complaining about this whole Jim storyline over at the CBS message boards… people are still watching…and though I was quite hesitant about this story myself, it has turned out to be quite interesting and thrilling! Rock on Melinda, Rock on!
March 7th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Rachel P, considering that Sci Fi is not even looking at picking up the show, as far as we know, then the ratings make no difference. They’ll probably pick up the repeats, though.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
They need to repeat the episodes another day for those who can’t watch it on Fridays for whatever reason can catch up. Most stations do that these days and I am glad because I can’t DVR all the shows at the same time. I DVR at least 3-4 shows every night! Even if I’m watching a show live I still DVR it just in case.
I also DVR Ghost Whisperer. Even though I don’t like what they did with Jim I still watch it and will keep watching it…
March 7th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
John T. Folden:
If FOX places a non sci-fi show with DH, then that would end the whole Sci Fi Fridays experiment. I’m actually liking the concept of Sci Fri Fridays, it just needs better content. There are some sci fi shows in the works for FOX, Human Target, Virtuality, etc and it would be nice to place them somewhere that is familiar to people, and hopefully begin to change the whole notion of Fridays as Doomsville. (BTW like your website!)
On the other hand, these are the numbers from a year ago Friday:
Fox:
8:00pm Bones (R): 6.67, 1.7
9:00pm House (R): 7.21, 2.3
FOX is either 1) Going to need CW-like patience with building a sci fi brand, meaning staying with shows with low numbers, or
2)Blow up the concept of Sci Fi Fridays.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
John T Folden: Apparently you haven’t seen all that Nick C has been saying around here?
March 7th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
letthieri, don’t start blaming Fringe for Dollhouse’s low ratings. First of all, Fringe started back in September, Dollhouse in February so these two shows have nothing to do with one another. Also, Fringe isn’t the reason why Dollhouse was airs on Friday. so, get over yourself. There are shows that gain more viewers than fringe *coughTheMentalistcough* and THAT show has a 20 million viewer lead in with NCIS. so shut up.
March 7th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
John T. Folden, you might want to wait until Fringe actually airs an episode without a lead in before you start talking crap about it.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Oh wow, you have Show Wars here!
March 7th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Playe,
The original Fringe pilot had no lead in–and the numbers were subpar.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
by subpar you must mean 10 million viewers.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Rachel, it’s my understanding Warner has yet to shop the show to anyone else. They can’t until its run is over on FOX. However getting a 1.0 couldn’t help any cause.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
@gossi, sadly, I much prefer STAR Wars
March 7th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
No, Jimmy, Fringe got somewhere got around 8 million. And considering all the promotion it received, that was indeed subpar. The following week, it was paired with House and then its ratings went up.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Andrea, yeah well, not all shows are going to premiere with the mentalist numbers all right? Just the fact that Fringe has lasted for 14 episodes as opposed to other shows that got cancelled within 2 months holds well. So don’t shove that fringe’s ratings suck shit down my throat.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Actually FRINGE pulled just slightly more than 9 million for its pilot in final numbers. I think the numbers were around 500K less than the series average so far. So it did better with HOUSE and AMERICAN IDOL than it did on its own.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Yeah people are nothing but drones who watch the same crap over and over again making the same shows hits.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Uh, Fringe premiered to 9.2 million and 3.3 in the demo (overnight numbers).
March 7th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Ooops.
My bad.
Nick C was right.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/09/10/ratings-tuesday-september-9-fringe-premieres-to-9-million/5017
March 7th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
My show is better than your show. Cancel all the shows! Except mine, it’s the best. FOX, suck it!
By the way, I’m not actually serious. I feel the need to point that out.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Thinking outside the box can sometimes pay big dividends. Look at what happened over at ABC when they switched Private Practice to Thursday at 10pm. That show went from almost out of practice to cutting up the competition with surgical precision. And Brothers & Sisters jumped from a 9 million viewer average to 12 million following the special event movie. FOX probably won’t ever give Terminator or Dollhouse a test airing in a great timeslot or even a special event airing given what’s being reported, but they’ll always wonder what if because at the rate these two shows are bleeding viewers they’ll be lucky to muster up a 1.9 viewer number to beat the CW network in a couple of weeks.
And why not attempt to put a solid combo on Friday like Bones/Fringe. CBS proved long ago that big audiences will watch primetime tv on Friday if you have compelling dramas. Even ABC draws decent numbers for its newsmagazine. They actually had a great show here (Women’s Murder Club)and killed it off(ABC idiotic move of 2008- lol). Still, with numbers for 20/20 ranging from 8 to 11 million over the span of the last three weeks they might consider a Primetime/20/20 block on Fridays. Of course if neither of the two really care about Friday night ratings then leave things as they are. CBS appears to be the only serious contender for six and a half nights of programming anyway. But give FOX some cred for Saturday as well. They have their reality crime night and those shows might not be giants but they have a following similar to Wife Swap and Supernanny. That being said I have to give ABC seven nights of credibility in the fall when college football returns.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Andrea, I don’t think the Sci Fi Fridays can end well as it stands. If the numbers were low but steady then I could see the worth of having some patience (though, this is FOX we’re talking about) but you can’t build a house in quicksand.
Plus, the experiment pretty much ends once PB returns, anyway, right? 
(BTW, sadly for Nikolaj-Coster-Waldau, I’m not hearing good things about the status of Virtuality.)
Rachel P; I have seen everything Nick C. says. I’ll stick by what SFC execs have said.
playe; Fringe ratings are sub-par considering all the push it’s received from FOX. The premiere numbers, without a lead-in, were underwhelming. The numbers when airing behind House and AI are not spectacular, and the reruns - even with lead-ins - are lacking.
Here’s the last 4 repeat numbers:
12/16/08(R) 4.82 M 1.9/5
12/23/08(R) 4.22 M 1.5/5
12/30/08(R) 5.08 M 1.6/5
01/06/09(R) 3.64 M 1.4/3
You really think this show would do anything blowing in the wind on Fri@8?
March 7th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
How will you win over viewers if you keep cycling sci-fi shows on Fox? I won’t tune if they keep airing them on Fridays.
When TSCC and Dollhouse are canceled, they could just call off the sci-fi Friday experiment and pretend it never happened. It seems wasteful to force it to work during this depression.
March 7th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
On a note having nothing to do with TSCC, Dollhouse, or FOX…
Flashpoint went up a bit again even with GW going down. I think the random scheduling hurt its momentum, but it might be getting some back (before going off the air for a couple of weeks for basketball). Even as a cheap Canadian production, I don’t think CBS would keep it if it couldn’t stay over a 2.0
March 7th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Matt2. as I recall Women’s Murder Club was doing poorly in the demos on Fridays, and after the strike was given a second chance after DWTS, where it did exactly the same numbers it did on Friday, proving that the show had peaked, and had no growth in it. Canceling it was the obvious move by ABC.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
“I’ll be shocked if the Live+7 numbers account for a .9 improvement over Live+SD w/18-49s. I’m guessing it will still be around a .5. But even if it increases to a .6 it won’t have mattered much.”
This is probably a dumb question, but while I can see concocting a “rating” measurement (unlike a “share”) for DVR viewing, doesn’t this require redefining the underlying Nielsen “universe”? At very least, DVR penetration would affect things.
So, how does one get to the point at which these metrics can be simply totaled to produce a demo rating?
March 7th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Really, S? I did not know that it ever aired after DWTS. Thanks for the info. You’re spot on there. If you’re the lucky show blessed with an airing following DWTS and you can’t capitalize on it, you certainly don’t deserve renewal.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Holly at this point I would guess that CBS will keep Flashpoint even if the numbers drop slightly below the 2.0 especially if the reports of how cheap the show is for them to make are even close to acurate. I don’t really see much upside in trying something much more expensive on a Friday, whether or not they keep it at 9 is another question completely…
March 7th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Have FOX abandoned the ‘remote-free TV’ for dollhouse, as the torrent for this week’s episode is 350mb instead of 550mb as with previous weeks?
March 7th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Ben, no they haven’t as far as I’m aware. They still had the usual “Dollhouse will return in 30/60 second” banners running last night. Your source just made an error in judgment.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
I think FOX has shown the winning strategy by putting strong shows on strong nights. House/24 works. I think they should do the same for Bones. Bones would work as a Friday show because it brings its own audience, no matter where it’s scheduled. Also, because it does not work as a lead-in for new, scripted shows.
If I were to guess an early schedule look for FOX Fall:
Mondays
8pm: House
9pm: Fringe (this show will always be paired with House or AI)
Tuesdays:
8pm: Maggie Hill (”Female Doctor House”, will first premiere after House
then move to this timeslot).
9pm: Human Target (Stars Fringe’s Mark Valley)
Wednesdays:
8pm: Hell’s Kitchen
9pm: Glee (will get its premiere after AI in the spring)
Thursdays:
8pm: Smarter than a 5th Grader
9pm: Don’t Forget the Lyrics
Fridays:
8pm: Bones
9pm: Osbournes (will get its premiere after AI in the spring)
March 7th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
I think it’s interesting everyone is surprised by the Nielsen numbers. When will you people understand that this system is BROKEN?
25,000 Nielsen families, who are randomly chosen, decide the fate of the show? This is bogus. I wonder what percent of the 25,000 Nielsen families fall in the 18-49 demographic?
March 7th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Wait… no way only 25000 families are Nielson families….?
March 7th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Oops! Forgot about Lie To Me. Put that in place of Hell’s Kitchen. HK will come back midseason on Thursdays at 9pm.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
stop saying put bones on a friday with dollhouse! dollhouse is doomed and pairing any established show with it will only lead to that show (bones seems to be people choice) losing viewers.
fox are more than happy with bones and are having it on twice on a week coming up (wed and thurs) and a 10 week run to close out the season with 26 eps, that will average around 10 million viewers for the season. if fox moved it to friday with dollhouse you can knock 2 - 3 million viewers off straight away (even with bones loyal fanbse) and a good few points in the demo, to what gain, to increase dollhouses crap ratings to average and the same with its demo numbers.
im sure fox would rather one solid show that can gain good/very good ratings in any 8pm slot (bar fridays) to having 2 shows pulling in ok and average viewers and demos on a friday.
dollhouse is a sinking ship, fox would be stupid to let it take any other show under with it. repeats paired with dollhouse, ok, any new episodes of bones, fringe ect is a big no no.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Playe, you really need to calm down fella. At this point Fringe is in no danger of not being renewed for next season, and nothing posted on this or any other blog is going to change that fact.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/03/03/dollhouses-future-in-the-balance/13836
Why is it that almost everyone other than yourself can get thier points across without resorting to swearing or name calling? Are you a teenager or something?
March 7th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
playe; It’s so predictable and immature to resort to name calling when you can’t bring anything relevant to the discussion.
…and to show you are talking out of your a*s; I watch Fringe every week it’s on, without fail. However, that doesn’t hide the fact that the show needs crutches around it to look like a passable success.
If you need every discussion about Fringe to be covered in bunnies and sunlight then you best stick to a fan site.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Statseter; if you have a better system then set it up and see if the advertisers like it.
The current one may have it’s share of flaws but it’s not going anywhere any time soon.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
From:
http://www.nielsenmedia.com/FAQ/nielsen_families.html
——————————————
How many “Nielsen families” are there?
There are 5,000 households in the national People Meter sample, approximately 20,000 households in the local metered market samples, approximately 1,000 metered homes for our national and local Hispanic measurement, and nearly 1.6 million diaries are edited each year.
——————————————
We all need to be honest hear, SCI-FI is not a mainstream, ratings puller. You either love sci-fi or you hate it. Given that sci-fi fans are a marginal community, it isn’t a surprise that our numbers in a small amount of Nielsen families produce abysmal results.
Lastly those who blame T:SCC for Dollhouses numbers are just plain dumb. I don’t care what lead in show you put there, you could put American Idol in T:SCC’s slot and you’d get the same numbers. People don’t watch TV shows because a certain show plays before or after it. People tune in to your show because they either like it or they don’t.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
“fox are more than happy with bones and are having it on twice on a week coming up (wed and thurs)”
Sammy, not sure where you getting that from. AI and Lie to Me will be on Wednesday. Bones is only airing Thursday.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Although I am away from my desktop I think that currently there are somewhat fewer than 20,000 Nielsen families. They are expanding the number on a schedule that I currently do not have access to. I also don’t have the 18-49 breakdown with me, but when Robert sees this I know he has it.
As for the system being broken, read Numbers 102 via the link in the blue nav bar above.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
“Jimmy, except DOLLHOUSE is getting the ratings they expected. TSCC is not”
Nick C, I’d like a link to what FOX expected for Dollhouse. I doubt they expected a 1.5 demo. If they did, why even air it? It was dumped on Fridays for a reason, to die.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Networks generally believe that SCI FI shows do better than Nielsen states. They also routinely sell higher ad premiums because many advertisers agree with the philosophy.
The problem with Nielsen is it polls so few people in comparison to the rest of the US. The idea that Nielsen takes the time to make sure they have a proper sample of SCI FI fans from normal TV Viewers would be absurd. Nielsen can’t properly get good samples of the niche markets. It’s just impossible. However advertisers and networks know that SCI FI is bigger than Nielsen numbers. Why? DVD sales. In direct relation to other TV shows, SCI FI sells better than normal TV (these attachment rates of DVD owners vs TV viewers are really neat to look at).
Despite that a 1.0 is a 1.0. That’s hard to spin to any advertiser.
Look at all the BSG hype. Do people really believe that only 1.6M people watched an episode the other night? Seriously? There is no way the number is that low. In fact DirecTV is able to show us that the number of receivers that watched an episode in no way matched Nielsen numbers. BSG gets much higher ratings (% of total viewers on viewing the show) from DirecTV numbers. The problem with DirecTV numbers is that despite it being a huge sample in comparison to Nielsen (millions compared to thousands) we don’t know the Sex or Age of the viewers. We just know that subscriber card X viewed the show on Receiver Y.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
“see, John, you just said that fringe is nothing but fucking failure!”
Actually I’m pretty sure he said the show wasn’t a breakout hit (and it isn’t) and has been held up by big lead-ins from House and then Idol, which is true but debatable at the same time although its the lead-in argument and no one ever wins that out right anyway. As things stand Fringe is doing well not spectacular but well. I don’t particularly like the show but that’s because it has Abrams fingerprints all over it and the man is a complete hack who hasn’t seen an idea he won’t steal but none of that changes the fact that unless there’s some kind of unforseen disaster Fringe is coming back next year.
In terms of whether it should be paired with Dollhouse on paper it works but I don’t think it would in practice, especially not a Fringe repeats (and that’s the only way I can see it happening now). If Fox takes TSCC off the air and I think that’s a longshot, it like Dollhouse is going to finish its run on Friday nights from the looks of things but if they do take it off air they’ll go one of two ways
1 - Burn off episodes of another show they don’t want anywhere else on the schedule, take a bow Prison Break and frankly I don’t think there’s much upside to burning off the PB episodes rather than the TSCC episodes at this point.
or
2 - They’ll put a House rerun in the slot to try and improve the demo averages for the night. In theory that might help Dollhouse although Dollhouse itself would need to sustain better quality episodes for that to work out. House viewers might stick around for the first week (or 15-minutes) but if its bad they’ll watch House and then watch something else.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
RJ, because quite simply you’re just wrong. I have yet to see you post anything of substance or accuracy. You consistently believe C3 ratings don’t matter when they are all that do. You also believe that FOX would pay for something they want to die. Guess what they’d really do? They’d cancel it before it ever aired. They do that you know. ABC did it to a comedy this past year. They had already paid for something like 5 episodes when they pulled the plug. It never even aired. It’s not good business to send a show somewhere to “die.” In fact it’s rarely even done. They may send dead shows (already canceled) to a certain night to air out the remaining episodes, but the idea that a Network actually sends a show someplace “to die,” is the sign of an uneducated conspiracy lover.
Yes, DOLLHOUSE didn’t look good from the first episodes that FOX had to judge. So they knew it would be insane to keep paying for it and air it on Monday Night like originally planned. So they moved it to Friday. You say to die. Kevin Reilly says to let the show air all its episodes and hopefully find some life. That is exactly what they did. They moved it to Friday knowing the first half of the season wasn’t good. He could have easily just axed the show. It happens. He decided to move it to Friday to let it LIVE. The exact opposite of your statement.
Also, you may not understand this but Network Execs are number crunchers and realists for the most part. You may need a link because you can’t wrap your head around the idea that they would expect a drop from 1.6 to 1.5 after airing the worst episode of the show, but they did in fact expect the drop.
If the show had aired on Monday Night like originally planned the show would be canceled today. It would not have pulled good numbers. It would already be off the air. So your whole theory sucks.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Seriously - I love Sarah and friends…
Fact: the previous 2 weeks were slow - but cool payoffs - last night was back on track…
Fact: I love Sarah & friends and I know its not being renewed - got it!
Also Fact - FOX is committed to finishing this thing out - it’s only 5 or 6 more episodes and they will run them all.
So those that love it - it’s over.
For those that don’t love it - it’s not over until ALL episodes run.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
For the record, Nielsen families aren’t randomly chosen, but strategically chosen based on population density, family demographics etc. This is then extrapolated to the country.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
WTF??? Less than 20,000 Nielsen families?!? And THAT’S supposed to be an accurate representation of what the millions upon millions upon millions of Americans watch?!
That’s absolute bull. I don’t care if the families are claimed to be “strategically chosen” or if Nielsen is the “only available measurement so we must use it lol” or whatever crap like that. Any shred of respect I once had left for the system is now completely gone. This whole thing is just flawed.
(On that note, I might as well announce what I’ve been meaning to today. I won’t be here nearly as often as I have been for a while, mostly cause I want to enjoy the rest of Terminator without fear of any spoilers.
I’ll probably check back here once a day just to see if there’s any big articles, and maybe to check some ratings (though I don’t know why I should even bother now). So yeah, I don’t mean to clog up this post, but just in case any regulars here wonder about my dramatic drop in postings, there’s your answer. =P Later guys.)
March 7th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
I really cannot see any reason as to why NBC can’t put Chuck on a Thursday with that lineup. I think it could easily capitalise on the audience that isn’t watching Ghost Whisper and possibly pull some away from CBS.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
jon - 2 episodes will air the week of 4/13 (on Wed 4/15 & Thu 4/16)
The Season Finale airs on 5/14/09
http://forums.fox.com/foxbones/messages
its been posted on the bones forum section on fox networks for a while now.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
You mean Friday Andrew? NBC has a bit more faith in Chuck to burn it off in a low rating night.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Ben, no they’re not randomly chosen. However by strategically choosing and trying to match demographics they can’t truly match the demographics of taste. All the set top box records and DirecTV records show that while some “popular,” shows are most definitely popular there are other shows that make the top 20 list that don’t even make the top 40 on Nielsen. The fact that the numbers are about 85% accurate seems to be enough for everyone involved.
However I’m sure for those shows in the 15% they wish there was something better. Nielsen is not good at capturing the “niche,” markets. The argument I constantly hear is “but they’re niche markets,” and that may be true. However the niche markets like SCI FI are much stronger than Nielsen indicates. I think I already mentioned BSG, but DirecTV numbers kind of show that something like 40% of BSG viewers must own DirecTV. I mean sure, that is a possibility. It is more likely that Nielsen isn’t good at measuring SCI FI related product.
March 7th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Doesn’t sweeps cover the niche markets?
March 7th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Ben, I’m not talking location markets, I’m talking demos. Like SCI FI is considered a Niche Demo, I should have said Demo vs. market. They can’t capture all the demos accurately. I can’t believe I made that mistake. Add the DVR mistake and perhaps I should stop posting for the night.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Oh, one last thought. It takes about 20,000 downloads for a show to reach #1 on iTunes, right? Yet networks don’t look into that at all since 20,000 isn’t a huge number. Yet that’s how many Nielsen families account for all of America.
Oh, that’s right… but Nielsen families are “strategically chosen” while any average American can just go and download something off iTunes or the like. Makes you wonder what those 20,000 people would translate to in Nielsen ratings.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
In regards to lead-ins. I think it helps some shows more than others but one only has to look at Fringe’s performance to see what a difference a lead-in can make. Fringe demo without House = 3.2, demo after House = 3.6-4.2, Demo after AI=4.1-5.0.
playe; Stop trying to put thoughts in my head or words in my mouth. Do you have a comprehension problem? I never said that. However, to ignore that Fringe has underperformed and has only become a success because of it’s positioning is naive, at best. If FOX wasn’t propping the show up every week with either AI or House, it’s ratings would be much lower now. It will most probably be easily renewed but it remains to be seen if it can become a stand alone performer like Bones.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Okay, I know you guys like to just present the numbers and say nothing more, and though I can’t help but feel there’s an anti-TSCC bias on here, I wonder what you “experts” have to say about this:
What factors/reasons would FOX have for renewing TSCC, regardless of the poor ratings?
Think about the implications of DVR. The promise of T4. And what this show could become if, as hinted by Thomas Dekker, it is retooled for the third season. If Josh Friedman can present a plan to revive this series and give it another shot at gaining a bigger audience, will FOX decide to stick with the show? Are they willing to invest in a potentially successful long-run project?
Don’t just throw the numbers at me. Be speculative and hypothetical.
Humour me, but don’t be sarcastic. I’m interested to see what you have to say.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Rachel P, well iTunes numbers are final. They’re the real deal. Nielsen numbers are estimates. DOLLHOUSE episode GHOST for instance has only sold something like 23,000 copies on iTunes. That’s it. 23,000 copies. That isn’t an estimate that is the total.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Veran, Warner could PAY FOX $1M per episode to air it. I guess that would do it. That is about the only hypothetical that would do it. DVR numbers mean absolutely nothing. They don’t mean anything at all. Nothing.
DVR numbers may lead a production company to believe DVD sales will be worthwhile. So they may end up lowering the cost for the broadcaster to purchase the show. Warner already sold the show to FOX cheap. It’s now easily losing FOX money because I’m sure this last Friday’s advertisers are demanding some free or cheap airtime on say Idol.
FOX already decided to not renew the show. It’s a done decision. Warner already knows it. Warner may shop it elsewhere, put it into syndication, or who knows what. However it’s done with FOX.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Rachel P; those iTunes downloads can’t translate into anything because they represent NOTHING. There are no demographics attached and it’s pretty much the farthest thing from a “representative sample” as you could get - you might as well ask “How man Dollhouse fans are fans of the show?”
March 7th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
“Also, you may not understand this but Network Execs are number crunchers and realists for the most part. You may need a link because you can’t wrap your head around the idea that they would expect a drop from 1.6 to 1.5 after airing the worst episode of the show, but they did in fact expect the drop”
HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY EXPECT A DROP? If I was a network executive, I wouldn’t expect it to drop if I wanted it to succeed. Your logic doesnt make sense. The reason you cant provide a link with the EXACT words on what the FOX Executives expected is because you made it up.
“If the show had aired on Monday Night like originally planned the show would be canceled today. It would not have pulled good numbers. It would already be off the air. So your whole theory sucks.”
It doesnt pull good numbers on Friday, so it wouldnt pull good numbers on Monday anyways. The only reason it isnt off the air yet is so they dont have a couple fans that are ticked off. If Dollhouse continues to drop again, FOX wont air the whole season out. FOX will just fill in some of those cheap episodes of ‘Til Death for most likely similar numbers. My theory does not suck. I at least provide some facts, while most of your “facts” are made up.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
According to my notes from last semester, this is the Nielsen household expansion schedule:
2002=5,000 HH (15,000 ppl)
2008=12,000 HH (35,000 ppl)
2011=37,000 HH (100,000 ppl)
March 7th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
“Rachel P; those iTunes downloads can’t translate into anything because they represent NOTHING.”
“Can’t” is a bit much. There’s likely plenty of signal in there.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
RJ, I’ve yet to be wrong here. I told people when certain shows were canceled, and then the media the same day started picking it up. I get my facts direct from executives at FOX. I’m sorry you’re incapable of reasonable thought when it comes to ratings. You admit the ratings would be bad on Monday, then you know it would be canceled by now. So your theory most definitely does suck. You don’t provide facts you provide conspiracy theories.
How stupid are you that you can’t understand that a show would drop in ratings after airing one of the worst hours of episodic television in years? That episode last week was horrid. FOX knew this. It was why they were worried about the show. Ratings don’t improve when you air bad TV. That is just a fact. Why you can’t understand that they expected ratings to drop early on is beyond me. They knew it wasn’t good. They know it gets good. So they just want the show to survive to the point where it starts getting good. Then they hope it rebounds from word of mouth.
If they wanted the show to die, FOX would have pulled the plug months ago. Whedon isn’t immune to having the plug pulled on him. Ask him about WONDER WOMAN some day.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Really? Gosh, that’s a big expansion. 208-ish %.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
RJ, also the show continues to make more money from commercials than anything they’ve aired previously on Fridays. Its ratings average in C3 are much higher than anything they’ve had on Fridays in years. So the show does have good Friday numbers. It would have horrible Monday numbers.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
J, I’m not sure if their plans have changed at all, considering the economy. I was given the info in like October or November, and it may have been from something published even earlier.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Veran, we don’t mind speculating on the numbers. I didn’t do so in the above post because at the time I wrote it I didn’t have many numbers, and the numbers we did have sort of spoke for themselves.
We’ve already speculated on numerous places on this site (see link to Renew/Cancel index at the top) that we’re certain TSCC isn’t coming back. At this point, I won’t be surprised if FOX pulls the plug and airs something else instead. I don’t think its DVR numbers matter much and I personally don’t see it winding up on another network (certainly not the CW, but I don’t think SciFi seems likely either).
I do not think FOX has any reason to pick up the show whatsoever, and I don’t think T4 has any bearing on any decision FOX will make.
Others have made some interesting arguments as to why SciFi might pick it up, and perhaps it will. I think that seems unlikely at this point, and getting more unlikely with each successive weekly drop in ratings on FOX.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
“RJ, I’ve yet to be wrong here. I told people when certain shows were canceled, and then the media the same day started picking it up. I get my facts direct from executives at FOX. I’m sorry you’re incapable of reasonable thought when it comes to ratings. You admit the ratings would be bad on Monday, then you know it would be canceled by now. So your theory most definitely does suck. You don’t provide facts you provide conspiracy theories.”
You think very highly of yourself. Trust me, your not that special, get over it.
Yes, I do provide facts. Just from my last post: 1. ‘Til Death is a cheap comedy. FOX got a bargain to get the fourth season. 2. You dont know the exact words that came from the mouths of the FOX Executives. I’ll wait for that link to the site that said they expected these ratings. Until then, I won’t believe you. So you talk to the executives at FOX? Yeah, I doubt it. Unless your emptying their garbages, not a chance. (Yeah, I felt that was kind of harsh.)
“How stupid are you that you can’t understand that a show would drop in ratings after airing one of the worst hours of episodic television in years? That episode last week was horrid. FOX knew this. It was why they were worried about the show. Ratings don’t improve when you air bad TV. That is just a fact. Why you can’t understand that they expected ratings to drop early on is beyond me. They knew it wasn’t good. They know it gets good. So they just want the show to survive to the point where it starts getting good. Then they hope it rebounds from word of mouth.”
A little low to call me stupid, dont you think? One of the worst hours? I believe it is the 13 worst hours of television. Whats the point of airing the bad episodes? If they lose all the viewers from the bad episodes, they wont be there for the new episodes. Viewers arent just going to run back to their tv screens to watch Dollhouse. Next week viewership and demos will fall again, and by episode 6 (which is supposed to be great; which I doubt) ratings will fall again.
*Now, I will TRY to ignore your posts.
March 7th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
::putting hands over ears: la la la la la la I am not listening::: Since many people seem in the mood to pick nits today, yes, I know, I probably should’ve said covering my eyes, not my ears. Oh well.
Going back to Friday Night Lights marathon on Hulu
March 7th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Nick C - you post a lot of stuff but you never back it up with links thats why people doubt you. you just posted that:
‘the show continues to make more money from commercials than anything they’ve aired previously on Fridays. Its ratings average in C3 are much higher than anything they’ve had on Fridays in years’
but wheres the proof? are you seriously telling me its more profitable to air dollhouse over a house repeat that costs nothing extra to make? if you are telling me this which seems unlogical and cant back it up with a link, why should people go against logic.
also you keep going on about C3, but if a show is only showing 60 seconds of adverts breaks instead of 3 minutes worth, the adverts have to make 3 times as much as the 3 minute ads to just break even with a 3 minute ad break. do you logicaly think that a dollhouse advert is pulling in 3 times the amount an advert is in a house repeat break?
March 7th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
RJ, its not low to call you stupid, it’s just observational. You have a problem believing I can remember what someone told me. That is pretty stupid.
I let people here know that DSM and PD were canceled before any media source reported it. Before even a janitor for those shows would have known it. So obviously I talk to somebody.
No, that doesn’t make me special or anything else. I generally refrain from mentioning my sources.
Also a show dropping .1 in the demo despite such a horrible hour of TV is a good sign. They obviously won’t be losing all their viewers. They just have to hold on for a few more weeks. Then the quality gets better, so it should even off. Then they hope word of mouth brings some back and new ones to the fold. This has happened so often in TV. The majority of shows that remain on the air for years had bumpy starts.
March 7th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Veran, T:SCC last week had the worst ratings of a new episode on the big 4. It’s pretty much impossible to save the show at this point. Friedman probably doesn’t have the trust of Fox since he was warned not to focus on Sarah and he did, resulting in 3 boring episodes that scared away a quarter of the remaining audience.
March 7th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Last time:
“I let people here know that DSM and PD were canceled before any media source reported it. Before even a janitor for those shows would have known it. So obviously I talk to somebody.”
PD has still not been cancelled. Numerous sorces have stated the three episodes could air on ABC’s website (which has been taken down) or thrown in on the schedule in the summer. However, ABC never officially said it was “cancelled”
I also agree with Sammy01, could you please provide some site with that info?
March 7th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Sammy01, point out where I’ve been proven wrong in data supplied. I stand by my statements. The C3 numbers are good. I can point to Kevin Reilly’s statement about them in a recent THR interview to back that up.
Yes, Remote Free TV uses less commercials. 10 minutes vs 16 to 17 minutes. It’s not 3 times the number. Currently FOX is able to get away with charging a 20% to 33% premium on the commercials. No, they’re not meeting the numbers of a show with the exact same C3 rating in advertising income. They are however likely close to matching the income of shows in their C3 ratings of what they’d get without Remote Free TV. I recently heard that argument and it makes sense.
C3 ratings generally show that a show either matches its LIVE + SD numbers or drops .1 or .2 (for scripted stuff). Where as a Remote Free TV program gets a .2 BOOST to its Live + SD. So on average a .35 boost compared to what it would get otherwise. That helps increase income to come close to matching the numbers otherwise.
So the system needs some tweaks. I hear sponsored programming may be added to Remote Free TV.
So say HOUSE or BONES repeats in the same time slot. Which is more profitable? From what I hear right now, DOLLHOUSE. DOLLHOUSE is cheap (over sea sales help) and has a high expectation for DVD sales. HOUSE isn’t going to increase its DVD sales from airing repeats on Friday.
Otherwise I agree, repeats of HOUSE and BONES or LIE TO ME would be the smartest choice. It’s cheaper than the game shows and brings in decent ad rates. However DOLLHOUSE brings in decent ad rates and DVD sales.
March 7th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
RJ, you better tell Fuller to get his ass back to writing episodes of PD then. Why on earth is he over at HEROES now? Oh, right, because his show was canceled and reported by Media hours after I posted it here.
March 7th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Nick C - you cant predict DVD sales. plus having bones or house repeats gives them the chance to attract new viewers to the shows that are being repeated.
i don’t buy C3 ratings being more profitable or all shows would use them, if something was going to earn more money the networks would be all over it.
March 7th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Sammy01, every show uses C3 ratings. Every single one.
Also you can predict DVD sales. Every studio does it.
March 7th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Robert, I doubt you’re watch FNL on Hulu. This is much more entertaining. Besides being one of your best hits, if not the best.
March 7th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
I still think Dollhouse is doing ok for a friday night. The highest demo at 9pm is a 2.0 and Dollhouse gets 1.5…it’s not so bad, AND it beats F. Night Lights.
March 7th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Well I see the American people still don’t know decent television if T:TSCC is up for cancellation. The second season has really picked up compared to the repetitive first season. (With a big exception to last week’s episode which was crap)
Dollhouse has been guaranteed a season or at least half a season but we all know what happens to shows created by the person that created that one.
I agree with the person that said to move Chuck into this lineup as these are the only shows I watch.
Chuck, Dollhouse, T: TSCC on my DVR equivalent. And Bones and Lie to Me but not on DVR equivalents.
Someone needs to tell you lot (FOX) that rating systems don’t work, never have and never will. Not until it takes into account the innumerable online access to the shows and get feedback from real people.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Nick C. might have a point! I’m not that in to Dollhouse, yet. I say yet because Kevin Reilly said something interesting! Here’s what he told the Hollywood Reporter!
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ic8f85937f15b71d12ab1acf7e3d694ca
THR: Can “Terminator” or “Dollhouse” financially make sense as broadcast shows next season if their ratings don’t improve?
Reilly: Advertisers have liked the shows. Both shows are doing well on a c7 basis. It’s too early to rule them out.
March 7th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
The TSCC fans - and I’m one of them, except I don’t call myself a fan of anything, because fans tend to be blind - just don’t realize that the show has almost nothing left of the Terminator franchise in it except the name on the title.
Friedman screwed over every single character on his show this season except Cromartie and Weaver - and Cromartie was killed off (but then resurrected as “John Henry”, the nascent Skynet).
People don’t tune in to a spinoff of a major franchise which is a sci-fi action show to see a show devoted to psychoanalysis of one character and a family drama.
At WonderCon last Sunday, Friedman said if you run too quick a pace, the show turns into a “soap opera”! WTF? Everybody knows a soap opera runs at the pace of a glacier. And that is precisely what TSCC did ALL SEASON! Friedman WALLOWED in Sarah Connor’s psyche like it was sex for him!
The viewers didn’t.
“Fans” cannot be listened to because they always believe that everything that happens on their favorite show is perfect. Read the comments over at the Fox TSCC wiki - everything is wonderful about the show.
The problem is that the wider audience doesn’t see it that way. When they hear “Terminator”, they expect to see tension, drama, action, building momentum, and thrill after thrill.
That doesn’t even come close to what TSCC has been this season. Season one was pretty good. Then Josh threw it all away, thinking he had all season two to screw around. The numbers should have told him he didn’t.
Now he runs around saying ingenuously, “Well, I know nothing about ratings.” While at the same time he says that Friday’s numbers are the same as Monday’s numbers adjusted for Fridays. That’s a big help!
This was TERMINATOR, for Christ’s sakes! How the hell do you screw that up so badly that a guaranteed hit TV show turns into a ratings disaster?
No, it’s not the night it airs on! Fox put it on Mondays against Monday Night Football and Dancing With the Stars because it believed Terminator was the one show that could survive there. And it would have if it had BEEN Terminator.
But it turned into the “Sarah Connor Psych Study” - BORING! Except to a handful of Sarah Connor fans.
There’s only one person who shoulders the blame for this - Josh Friedman. The actors were wonderful, the writers were clever, the effects teams were great, everything was great about this show - except the VISION!
It’s that simple.
The show is over.
March 8th, 2009 at 12:35 am
Every Friday I read all of these, and then after i’m done I ask myself why I just read all the comments. Lol.
A) If FOX moves Bones, as many of you suggested, that’d be like the worst thing they could do. You don’t move a show that’s a hit on one night to Fridays. You just don’t. You can move it to any night Sun-Thu, but Fridays are too big a chance.
B) Someone suggested putting Chuck on Fridays. NBC could do that I guess, if they want Dollhouse type numbers for it. I doubt they want that.
C) Dollhouse is dead. Gut feeling and nothing more.
D) Terminator’s numbers get increasingly hilarious by the week.
March 8th, 2009 at 1:14 am
What could Kevin Reilly be thinking? Why would he say that advertisers like both shows considering their ratings are so low, even on Friday Nights?? What on earth??
I’d really like to know Nick C., you’re thoughts on this coment.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ic8f85937f15b71d12ab1acf7e3d694ca
THR: Can “Terminator” or “Dollhouse” financially make sense as broadcast shows next season if their ratings don’t improve?
Reilly: Advertisers have liked the shows. Both shows are doing well on a c7 basis. It’s too early to rule them out.
March 8th, 2009 at 1:30 am
i haven’t watched the last nights episode yet. I’m sure it’s gotta be better then last weeks she’s a backup singer crap.
Iit wasnt , she got wiped and became a idiot for most of the show.
dollhouse is just not a good show , I have watched all 4 , and it seems the premise itself it is bad and the cast is weak. I like eliza, but there really is no echo character, she is either a idiot, or some different personality each weak, hard to identify with echo, and she is the lead character.
so this show is going to keep losing viewer, no matter what the leadin show is , and and how about this put tscc on after dollhouse[ switch them ] and see what happens….probably would still be the same, each show is losing live neilsen viewers, but may continue with high dvr numbers.
the few I know who gave dollhouse a try just dont find it interesting.
so far there is no “hook” and they have yet to show alpha !LOL
and i am tscc fan who does stick around for dollhouse, and lots of them do they just dont have nielsen boxes.
and the high dvr numbers for both shows last week says that the neilsen viewers are going out on fri nite [ the ones who were watching tscc on monday ]
and so a big movie premeire could affect their numbers.
I just hope remaining eps get aired for TSCC, it looks like friday is not a good night, and the sarah eps didnt help matters. this weeks ep was much better, so hopefully ratings might go up a little next week
March 8th, 2009 at 4:25 am
Y: It’s called “spin”. What should he say “These shows are looking like failures and we won’t renew them but we ordered the episodes so might as well air them while we got ‘em”? hehe If the ratings weren’t tanking already, they surely would be after those kind of comments.
John Connor: No, those DVR numbers for Friday are NOT the missing viewers from Monday night. You’re completely forgetting about the DVR numbers the show, also, got on Mondays.
March 8th, 2009 at 5:57 am
The Nielsen system uses statistic sampling. No one thinks that it gives an *exact* viewing figure, but it’s good enough. And 25000 is a huge sample - the news networks use polls of 1000 people in key states to call a Presidential election, and they’ll be within two or three percent of the result when a couple of million people vote.
Advertisers spend billions based on the Nielsens. The system is good enough for them, and they understand the limits.
A lot of people here are missing the key issue here with Dollhouse. It doesn’t matter what the slot is, what the lead in is, what Fox executives think - what matters is that, four weeks in, *one in four* of the people who tried Dollhouse aren’t coming back.
This isn’t some undiscovered gem tucked away that everyone who watches it loves - it’s a show that didn’t appeal to many people to start with that has failed to hold on to the hardcore audience who *did* tune in.
March 8th, 2009 at 6:03 am
Advertisers like Dollhouse because they see increases in C3 numbers vs. the numbers we see.
Right now because of ‘Remote Free TV’ Dollhouse gets a bump in C3 numbers and those are the numbers advertisers care about. When a show is scoring a 1.5 in the over nights and getting bumped up to a 1.7 in the C3’s advertisers see something they like. Would they like it more if it was a 2.5 bumping up to a 2.7 or a 3.5 bumping up to a 3.7? Sure. But on Friday nights I’m guessing everyone will take a 1.7+ and run with it but the long and short of this is that advertisers like shows where the audience watch the commercials and Dollhouse fits that category.
Dollhouse’s numbers are fantastic but they aren’t horrible compared to everything else in its timeslot. From what’s been said regarding the shows C3 numbers (and those are the numbers that matter) I would guess it’ll finish this week just behind Flashpoint and 20/20 despite having a lot less than half the viewers. If that audience grows (and Fox seem to think it will over the second half of the season) then it’ll easily top its timeslot.
On top of that advertisers like Dollhouse on Friday’s because its performing better than what Fox had in the slot before it.
Held within the Friday night bubble Dollhouse isn’t doing horrifically bad.
TSCC is another matter completely…
March 8th, 2009 at 7:36 am
For a night with the lowest ratings, Friday sure has the most spark with the amount of comments compare to other days.
March 8th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Joompa, it takes a lot more posts to try to twist horrible numbers into something good than it does to just talk about the rest of the numbers. (See the Wednesday thread where the Knight Rider fans come out in droves.)
March 8th, 2009 at 7:57 am
Alex, you wrote “Dollhouse’s numbers are fantastic but they aren’t horrible”. Don’t you mean they AREN’T fantastic?
March 8th, 2009 at 8:04 am
@ Richard Steven Hack
You said what I’ve been thinking. The show lost it’s way for all the reasons you listed.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:10 am
@Nick C, you state: “It could even survive a 1.4 if it trends back up to say 1.8 at seasons end (1.8 maybe for the finale).”
This is the first time you have lowered your expectations to a 1.4 for Dollhouse. Is this a prediction? Are you expecting another drop now, and thus lowering your expectations so that you can claim this expectation as *prediction* when it happens next week?
Interesting that you now offer an objective critique of Nielsen too. Any word on how DirecTView is faring in the general marketplace? Are advertisers buying into the concept? I have only read that Starcom bought into DirecTView from the start. I’m wondering what other major advertisers are interested. As for not knowing the age, gender, etc…of viewers in the system, that’s not really true. The public won’t know that info, but TNS/DirecTV can pull that info easily from subscriber info and a quick survey. Advertisers and programmers will get the info they need, and that’s what matters, IMHO.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:13 am
@Steve Jeffers, you state, “A lot of people here are missing the key issue here with Dollhouse. It doesn’t matter what the slot is, what the lead in is, what Fox executives think - what matters is that, four weeks in, *one in four* of the people who tried Dollhouse aren’t coming back.”
You’ve hit the nail precisely on the head there. The true test for Dollhouse is if it holds now - 25% drop - drops further, or trends up. Only the last of those three options will save it. Personally, I don’t see that happening.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:16 am
OK, I understand that advertisers base their decisions off the C3 ratings, and I understand that Dollhouse and Fringe are pretty much the only shows to see an increase from Live+SD to C3. I’m not doubting the value of increasing from a 1.5 in Live+SD to a 1.7 (estimated) in C3. Obviously, advertisers will pay more for an ad getting 1.7 than 1.5. My question is, will they pay enough of a premium on that 0.2 bump to make up for the fact there are so many fewer ads?
In Kevin Reilly’s interview with The Hollywood Reporter, he didn’t sound all that high on the results of the “Remote Free Viewing” experiment. That seems to indicate that while they’re getting more per ad, the difference hasn’t really been enough to make up for fewer ads overall.
Using completely made up, arbitrary numbers…Let’s say that remote-free viewing means you have half the ads to sell (it doesn’t, remember, arbitrary numbers). It’s great that one advertiser is willing to pay $100,000 for an ad during Dollhouse for a 1.7 with remote-free viewing, but if two advertisers would be willing to pay $75,000 each for the 1.5 with twice as many commercials, is it really a success? While it looks good to say you’re getting an extra $25,000 per ad, overall you’re loosing out on $50,000.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:20 am
As for not knowing the age, gender, etc…of viewers in the system, that’s not really true. The public won’t know that info, but TNS/DirecTV can pull that info easily from subscriber info and a quick survey.
I’m not sure what cable provider you have, but I have never been asked to provide any demographic information to any that I have used, including DirecTV. Besides that, there’s no way to tell who is actually watching something in a household with DirecTView. Most households have more than one person in it.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:24 am
One more question on the C3 ratings. Since it seems the strongest argument for keeping Dollhouse right now rests on that bump from Live+SD to C3, is Dollhouse’s fate tied to the fate of the “Remote-free” experiment?
March 8th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Nick C,
You talk like Dollhouse is the worst thing ever. Those episodes were okay. They were not bad. The Target and Gray Hour were actually good. And I actually enjoy more Stage Fright than Ghost.
Dollhouse is not what we hoped fore, yet. Still, compared with most of television shows, it’s better. Also, it only aired 4 episodes until now.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Julia,
I think knowing who is watching on DirecTV - guests, household members, etc… is why a quick survey would be necessary. I have DirecTV. I have never been required to provide any demographic information, but I am not part of the DirecTView sampling. As I recall, there are places in my account information where I can fill in optional information such as age, gender, etc…not required, but optional. I’d expect the DirecTView panelists would fill in those optional details under the strictest adherence to privacy that DirecTV is able to achieve. I remember reading that the “Friday Night Lights” premiere on DirecTV was subscribers’ number two basic cable viewing among women that night. They must have gotten that info somewhere to claim such a fact.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:40 am
So, basically you are suggesting that DirecTView use diaries. You know, those things Nielsen uses in the smaller markets that are so hated by all Nielsen critics.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Julia, I am not suggesting diaries alone, as telephone, online, or even interactive remote fucntions could be added. The technology is there. There’s a beter comfort level, too, IMHO, when dealing directly with satellite/cable provider rather than a third party (Nielsen). Right now, they may need a quick “sign off” from DirecTView households that information of viewers may be requested in order to be a panelist. And right now, they may need to use diaries as follow-up, as Nielsen still does in small markets and during sweeps. I do hate diaries, but I understand when they may be the simplest option right now.
March 8th, 2009 at 8:52 am
People can lie (intentionally or not) as easily online or on the telephone as they can in diaries. Unless DirecTView has a technology that can compete with People Meters, they will not have any more accurate information than Nielsen has now.
March 8th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Holly I made similar points regarding ‘Remote Free TV’ last week in terms of whether the C3 increase and less ad time has actually led to a worthwhile and profitable increase in ad rates and the basic answer is that no one outside of Fox really knows and they’re not saying much right now. The general thought right now seems to be wait and see, as in wait and see what Fox does next year if they ditch ‘Remote Free TV’ then the answer to the question is the difference in rates isn’t worthwhile, whereas if more shows get given the remote free billing next year then obviously its worked or the success in terms of C3 increases means Fox has been able to make it profitable next season. If they keep it but don’t expand it (as in keep just Dollhouse and Fringe as ‘Remote Free TV’) then I suspect everyone will be a little confused.
From what Reilly said in the THR interview I would guess that the remote free concept isn’t financially viable for a shows entire season. My guess is that next year either Fox will (as Nick’s suggested) pair it with sponsorship deals to try and offset the loss or as Reilly suggested in the THR interview reduce it to essentially a special event concept - season finales, premieres, stunt events and things of that nature where they’ll be able to sell the ads at an inflated rate as a one-time only deal. Personally I think for now at least the second option is more likely - I don’t think they’ll ditch it out right just yet.
As to whether Dollhouse’s fate is tied to remote free I doubt it, I can see Fox bringing Dollhouse back next year without remote free and I can see remote free coming back without Dollhouse and I can see both being axed but not collectively, as in I don’t think we’ll see remote free is gone so Dollhouse is as well. My read on this from week one has been that Dollhouse’s fate is tied into how Fox feels about Friday nights more than anything else but I may very well be wrong on both counts on that front. If however Fox ditches remote free then Dollhouses C3 numbers obviously become meaningless and that’ll change the bar on what it needs to come back.
And Michael yes it was a typo on my part when I said Dollhouse’s numbers are fantastic I did indeed mean aren’t.
March 8th, 2009 at 9:31 am
holly - that was my point though i got C3 confused with remote free t.v, i just don’t think that remote free t.v thats bumping up the demo by a couple of points is enough to make up for the loss or airtime for advert breaks. like i said if it was a roaring success every show would be using it already, as why would shows not use a system that earns them extra money. the fact that remote free t.v has not been expanded to other shows already gives you your answer.
March 8th, 2009 at 9:55 am
@Ricardo
“That has absolutely nothing to do with it. I mean, Dollhouse gains viewers because many people don’t watch TSCC and watch Dollhouse. A lead-in it’s suppose to give some of it’s viewers to the next show, and I think Terminator isn’t doing that.
From your prespective:
Lie To Me loses viewers over American Idol.
Hey! American Idol is dragging Lie To Me down.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe not. I just can’t understand your point of view.”
I’m running with the assumption that people who are watching TSCC keep the TV tuned in for Dollhouse. Therefore, if Dollhouse has more viewers over TSCC, then people are tuning in for the show regardless of whether or not TSCC precedes it. Dollhouse is a genre specific show that has narrow appeal, not wide appeal. TSCC and Dollhouse both target the same audience. It is a good pairing of shows. The problem is that there is insufficient interest in both of them.
I simply reject the argument that good lead ins make a significant difference for certain types of shows. When new series premiere after an established show, I certainly think it helps that first night’s performance. So, if Dollhouse premiered after American Idol, then it’s first night’s ratings would have been higher.
However, most people are channel surfers and will readily switch channels if they do not care for a show. There are too many options out there for people to just blindly keep their TV tuned into a single station. So, continuing my example of the Dollhouse after American Idol premiere, if those viewers did not like Dollhouse, they would simply not come back the next week. Dollhouse’s numbers drop regardless of the lead in.
I think that negative publicity about a show and/or the reality that a show does not have good ratings do more to sink the ratings further than any bad lead in. Dollhouse has been raked with bad publicity. Didn’t they start some type of a website last year to protest its cancellation? Why are people going to tune in when it is already an established conclusion that the show will be canceled?
The argument that Dollhouse’s decline is the result of TSCC is simply flawed. TSCC has enough problems of its own as does Dollhouse. I honestly don’t think that putting something else in front of Dollhouse will cause its numbers to go up significantly.
On the flip side, I have no clue how you came up with the line of reasoning that a show that draws 28 million viewers drags down a show that draws in about 10 million viewers. A show that loses large numbers after viewers after a megahit like American Idol has issues of its own. Idol has nothing to do with it except for the fact that two very different audiences tune in for each show. Idol is a family oriented show whereas Lie to Me is more adult oriented.
March 8th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Julia - so the People Meter cannot be misused? I think it’s just as easy to forget to push a button, not push a button for a guest, or push the wrong button on a People Meter as it is to lie on a diary or survey. People Meters are slightly improved over other technology, but I am confident that DirecTView will match People Meter’s accuracy in time. TNS’s STB system has only been around for a few years (Charter Cable then DirecTView). DirecTV must be calculating this stuff somehow, or they would not have been able to say :
“During the hour of its premiere, “Friday Night Lights” ranked No. 7 amid all of basic cable available to DirecTV viewers. (That note is important: DirecTV is measuring its competition based on its subscriber base.) Within the 18- to 49-year-old demographic, “Friday Night Lights” ranked No. 2 with women and No. 7 with men, the company said.”
Nielsen is not cited in the NYT article from which that quote is derived. Unless somehow Nielsen allowed DirecTV-susbsrciber-specific ratings to be used without citing them as the source, I will assume that DirecTV did not use Nielsen for the info in that quote. We are not permitted to know how demos are obtained at this time - likely a subscriber privacy issue, IMHO.
March 8th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Clutz, I have never said that Nielsen is perfect or People Meters are perfect, and I never would, because that would be idiotic. My problem with your line of reasoning is that you seem to disregard Nielsen in favor of DirecTView for NO REASON WHATSOEVER. There is no evidence that DirecTView has done or is planning to do any of the things you seem to attribute to it. Yes, I’m sure the technology they are using will advance, but so will Nielsen’s. They’ve changed a hell of a lot over the years, and will only continue to do so. You are so gung ho about DirecTView and so critical of Nielsen and it makes no sense.
March 8th, 2009 at 10:09 am
I think Dollhouse is probably dead if T:SCC is, and will be even if Dollhouse’s figures improve. Fox never seems to have much interest in sci-fi, and if they’re thinking in terms of “Sci-fi Friday” as some kind of regular feature, then it’s not the individual shows they’re interested in.
T:SCC dying leaves one hour of programming to put in SFF. SFF is a nonsense if it’s just one hour of anything. There’s no new programming ready to go that can just slip in there.
If Dollhouse had House like audience figures, then, sure, Fox would feel compelled to keep it. But at this point those who are looking at the show in terms of “Well, the figures are high enough to get sufficient advertising to fund the show” are missing the point. Dollhouse has to both be viable and fit into what Fox wants to do. Cancel T:SCC, and you’re canceling SFF, and if you’re canceling SFF, then you’re canceling Dollhouse.
The flip side of this is that if Dollhouse does really well, then Fox might keep T:SCC around for one more season while they hunt around for a replacement. But, for that to happen, Dollhouse would have to do really, really, well. And by that I mean really, really, really, really, really well. I just don’t see it.
I think both shows are going to get the axe.
March 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am
‘Julia - so the People Meter cannot be misused?’
Sigh.
Every possible system is flawed. The Nielsens have *known* flaws. The advertisers understand the numbers, they understand that they’re getting an approximation, they understand that having the TV on is not the same thing as watching every advert and deciding to buy that product.
The number of people watching Dollhouse is *roughly* what the Nielsens say it is. Plenty of failed shows have people bemoaning the Nielsens and claiming that millions of people weren’t recorded … but the Nielsens do constantly try to improve their models. As I say, the statistic sampling is the best in America. It’s way better, for example, than political polling.
If that doesn’t satisfy you, then … it doesn’t really matter. At the end of the day, the studios and networks and advertisers treat the Nielsens as *though* they were true.
March 8th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Julia, my intention is only to note that, in DirecTV’s mind, DirecTView is just about equivalent to Nielsen in ratings accuracy. The NYT mention of FNL’s demographics, within the DirecTV subscriber base, is all I need to show me that DirecTV is confident in their own metrics. As of now, the biggest flaw is that DirecTView is only a factor in this one subscriber base. If enough advertisers show enough interest, perhaps other cable/satellite companies will partner with TNS to form similar measures? The reason I started asking questions in this thread is that Nick C seems to have some inside info on what DirecTV is counting, which is favorable to “niche markets.” I agree that this system is a good fit for niche markets, and I’m wondering if any more advertisers have bought into the system yet? Dollhouse aside, DirecTView and future STB data sources are an interesting concept. If cable and satellite companies start trusting - and successfully selling- their own ratings systems to advertisers, how will that change the current advertising-based television model as a whole? I find it fascinating that advertisers have metrics choices beyond Nielsen, and I want to know how many of them are investing in such choices. I make no judgment that any data source is superior or inferior to any other; but it’s time to admit that Nielsen is no longer the *only* data source for television advertisers.
To go back on topic, I see some C+3 interpretations here that will be a factor in the future of Dollhouse. In order to claim success, the remote-free concept (as evidenced in C+3 ratings) will need to justify enough of a price premium that total advertising dollars are resulting in profits, yes? So how high will the C+3 rating need to be in the 18-49 demo to command a profitable ad price? Are we still saying a 1.8 rating is the magic number, or is 1.7 sufficient? Or will Fox be selling Dollhouse on “great DirecTView ratings” in addition to the Nielsens? If so, will such a sales pitch work?
March 8th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Yikes. I watch both shows, and I will not be mad at Fox if they cancel them, because this is just disastrous. Those Fringe reruns aren’t looking like such a bad idea at this point.
March 8th, 2009 at 11:41 am
squiggleslash said; “if Dollhouse does really well, then Fox might keep T:SCC around for one more season while they hunt around for a replacement.”
No chance, FOX already has several sci fi series in the pipeline, including Virtuality.
March 8th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Nick, Fringe reruns look disappointing on a Tuesday even when they’re behind something popular like House. What do you think they’d do all alone on a Friday?
March 8th, 2009 at 11:57 am
“like i said if it was a roaring success every show would be using it already, as why would shows not use a system that earns them extra money. the fact that remote free t.v has not been expanded to other shows already gives you your answer.”
It doesn’t work that way.
Rolling out a concept like Remote Free TV isn’t like flicking a switch and then its done, its infinitely more complicated than that. Even if Remote Free is an incredible success and ad rates for Fringe and Dollhouse (the first and so far only shows to use Remote Free TV) are through the roof Fox couldn’t apply the Remote Free concept to the rest of their prime time line-up. Arguably they might have been able to do it with American Idol and Hell’s Kitchen if they’d re-edited the shows, in Idol’s case the auditions but for scripted drama it would be pretty impossible to roll it out beyond Fringe and Dollhouse until next year.
Shorter ad breaks mean that shows have to be longer - Dollhouse and Fringe both run longer than standard network shows, which may or may not pose problems as/when/if they enter syndication. The fact that the shows have to be longer means that the production teams have to make them longer and that means (amongst other things) that the writers have to write longer scripts. Both the Fringe and Dollhouse production teams would have been made aware well ahead of time that they were going to be part of the Remote Free TV experiment and that their shows therefore needed to be longer.
Had Fox seen the numbers Fringe was doing and decided they wanted to make Lie To Me part of Remote Free TV they wouldn’t have been able to do it. Production was already well under way, scripts where written and filmed and it simply wouldn’t have been viable to make all the episodes longer. It’s also worth remembering that Fringe and Dollhouse are so far the only shows to get Remote Free treatment during the first and so far only season of trying it. This isn’t something you just roll out onto the entire network over night regardless of how successful it is. If you want to know if Remote Free TV has worked or not wait and see what if anything Fox does with it next year when they’ll actually have the option to roll it out onto other shows.
March 8th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
squiggleslash, regardless of Dollhouse’s performance TSCC is gone.
As far as Fox not liking sci-fi goes I think you’re off the mark and Fringe is waving hello at you right now. If Fox wants to keep the sci-fi block going next year then they’ll just pick up a sci-fi pilot because there’s never a shortage of them doing the rounds.
March 8th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Alex, there’s also the issue with ads that are sold at upfronts. They may have sold enough for a certain program (and I would assume American Idol would be one where this would be the case) that they already have too many ads committed to do Remote-Free.
March 8th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
alex i get your point but if it was successful surely idol would have it, why wouldn’t they use it if it makes extra money, adding a few extra minutes to idol wouldn’t be hard surely?
March 8th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I don’t believe the 8.4 million viewers number for 20/20 for even a moment. Most people are simply not desperate enough to watch a news program like that for 30 minutes much less 2 hours.
I think that Nielsen’s sampling methods are seriously flawed if they are standing by that number.
The whole broadcast model is an aging concept anyway. I think one will see a significant shift in the nature of TV content within another 10 years or so once the viewing platforms are *completely* viewer-centric and the whole timeslot concept goes away. The latter will only be relevant for live events while most content will be viewed as either streaming or recorded content at the viewer’s pleasure.
At that point, the statistical sampling approach of Nielsen will become less relevant as one will be able to *COUNT* the number of streamed viewings and extrapolate from it to the viewing numbers from any other content delivery method that is employed.
Broadcast is steadily dying, it just hasn’t received the formal funeral notice yet.
March 8th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Julia’s point regarding ads sold at upfronts would be why it isn’t on Idol and why my commitment to them being able to roll the format onto Idol (and Hell’s Kitchen) was ‘arguably they might of…’
March 8th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
What was on 20/20 Friday Night?
March 8th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
The 9pm 20/20 was a special on Siegfried & Roy. The 10pm one was something about work-at-home online jobs.
March 8th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Siegfried and Roy.
March 8th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
I don’t think its out of the realms of possibility that Sigfried & Roy and their final performance pulled those kind of numbers for a one-off. The drop-off from hour one to hour two would likely be interesting though.
March 8th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
The 8.4 seems accurate. Just a few weeks ago, 20/20 pulled 11 million.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/02/14/friday-ratings-how-did-dollhouse-and-terminator
March 8th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Alex, Hibberd reported in his comments the 10pm 20/20 data (20/20 10 p.m.: 7.6 2.0 6) but not the 9pm data, but you can still extrapolate…
March 8th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Fringe is sci-fi? I appreciate The Sci-Fi channel has done a lot to undermine the term by making pro-wrestling and movies about giant reptiles their major source of content, but I don’t see Fringe as sci-fi any more than Buffy or Charmed are sci-fi. Whatever the case, definitions that fit Fringe do not fit either Terminator or Dollhouse, and replacing Terminator with Fringe certainly wouldn’t attract the same demographic.
Fox has a history of tentatively trying out science fiction shows only to cancel them shortly afterwards. The X-Files was an exception, but it got by on the strength of its connection with 1950s mystery shows like The Twilight Zone. Dark Angel got in there because of James Cameron, and Fox clearly didn’t like it much but got themselves into a corner with it. We all know how Firefly turned out, and by all accounts that was bought in an effort to get rid of Cameron while saving face. From there… what? T:SCC is the latest example, and appears to only have had a second season because its makers wanted to promote the forthcoming movie and were willing to heavily subsidize it.
So no, I don’t think Fox likes sci-fi. I think they’re extremely uncomfortable with the genre. The only reason they show it is they’re also one of the most experimental networks, one of the most willing to try something new. But their history of sudden and very often difficult to explain cancellations demonstrates where they are on this issue.
Does anyone seriously think T:SCC, even though it was actually good for most of the first season, got renewed last year for any reason but the new movie?
March 8th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Yes. The ratings for T:SCC were decent in the first season. Now,it would have never gotten the back 9 for season 2 if it wasn’t for the movie but renewing the first season would be defensible even if there were no movie.
March 8th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
“Does anyone seriously think T:SCC, even though it was actually good for most of the first season, got renewed last year for any reason but the new movie?”
Me.
I don’t think the fourth Terminator movie had anything to do with Fox deciding to pick it up for a second season and the backward logic applied to make that suggestion work is astonishing to me. I do however think the writers strike had everything to do with TSCC getting a second season.
And whilst you may not like it or approve Fringe is very much a sci-fi show more so than Firefly for example ever was. But I really have no desire to get into a debate about whether shows like Buffy, Charmed, X-Files, Fringe, Firefly etc. are ‘real’ sci-fi shows or not.
March 8th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Agreed. IIRC, the season one finale of TSCC pulled a 3.0 in the demo. It had been steadily increasing for a little while leading up to that.
March 8th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I don’t think the second season was ordered due to the movie. However, I do think the back nine was ordered due to the movie.
March 8th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Robert, I found some more ratings information for Friday here:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/tvguide/402781_tvgif7.html?source=rss
March 8th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Dollhouse has put me to sleep every episode I have watched. It should get the boot. TTSCC should be moved back to a night when people actually watch the tube. It is a pretty decent show and has plenty of nice eye candy.
March 8th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Richard Steven Hack, fans can’t be listened to? What bout haters? I am sure haters of Dollhouse just can’t wait to have the show cancelled.
March 8th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Remote Free TV gets higher premiums than normal. This is between 20% and 33% more than the SAME advert for the same C3 rating. The shows lose 40% of their adverts. The money doesn’t equal out. So no, right now it’s not financially viable.
However, they’ve shown that RFT has much higher advertising brand retention than normal advertising. So it may well continue next season in some form. I know JJ wants to keep it strictly because he’s able to tell more story.
They’re going to need to charge 40% more in premiums for it to be a success, something they’ve been unsuccessful at so far.
Clutz, I’m not predicting a 1.4 for DOLLHOUSE, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I thought it would drop to a 1.5 and level off there. It may well drop to a 1.4. The point is it can drop as long as it trends back up to something healthy. The show needs to keep a 1.8 in C3s to be renewed. I think right now it’s still AVERAGING around a 2.0. So right now it’s doing alright. It must trend back up.
I haven’t changed anything, but getting a 1.4 is BAD. Getting a 1.5 is BAD. 1.6 you can wiggle around and say it’s possibly alright. 1.7 and above and the show is fine. Again, if it can trend up to a 1.8 by seasons end or higher the show WILL be around next season.
March 8th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Also combined TNS data for all set top boxes, DirecTV, etc. is nearly 1M people.
March 8th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Nick, I’m not as sold as you that it’s fine with a 1.7. While I understand that reruns and unscripted content don’t offer potential for international or DVD sales, if Dollhouse is as cheap as you say it is (I think you said 1.5 million) I’m not convinced that they aren’t better off airing House/Lie to Me reruns regularly (or Bones) and promoting that even half as much as Dollhouse/TSCC.
I think with some promotion that would average a 1.5 (Live+SD) but let’s say it’s not promoted and it winds up with a 1.2 or 1.3 C3, between higher ad revenue, international and DVD sales it needs to average….$1.5 million per original episode MORE than a rerun to be more profitable.
That seems like a pretty steep hill to climb, especially given Dollhouse’s declining ratings.
March 8th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
What is sci-fi about Fringe? From what I’ve seen it’s a show centering around paranormalism. I honestly don’t think anyone in their right mind can argue that it’s science fiction, it’s pretty much the exact opposite! I’d put it in the same category as Buffy or Charmed but has a different dynamic to either of those shows, in much the same way as House is different from ER. But science fiction? Come on, that takes stretching the definition of science fiction beyond anything reasonable.
As far as the comments about T:SCC being renewed, I must admit to being surprised, I’d heard the ratings were poor for the first season, and I’m happy to be told otherwise. The first season was pretty good, especially in comparison to S2. It certainly deserved higher ratings than S2.
At the same time, if it wasn’t for T4, I still doubt Fox would have pushed it. By all accounts, they got it for a song.
March 8th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
let’s see, what is SCI FI about Fringe? Off the top of my head, , being able to move through matter (like walk through a wall), genetic engineering that completely changes a person, aliens, being able to communicate with the consciousness of a dead person, being able to extract information from a dead person as long as they haven’t been dead too long, and teleportation.
I’m sure there’s more. The approach they use to get info out of/communicate with dead people is psuedo-science (and certainly fiction, but not paranormal). Genetic engineering? Not paranormal. Teleportation is not paranormal.
I may not be in my right mind, but I honestly think it’s in the science fiction genre, but ALSO in the paranormal genre. But the SciFi channel must not be in its right mind either as it airs paranormal genre stuff. Ghost Hunters International — typically its #1 show of the week for SciFi.
March 8th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Science Fiction
noun.
A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.
Almost every episode of Fringe deals with some sort of “speculative scientific discoveries or developments” that Walter Bishop (and/or Massive Dynamecs) was involved with.
March 8th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
I don’t really see anything paranormal about Fringe. Fringe most certainly falls under sci fi, imo.
March 8th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
oops, missing word there… should be “anything EXCESSIVELY paranormal…”
The writers seem to approach virtually all the topics from a scientific or pseudo scientific POV.
March 9th, 2009 at 4:22 am
Fringe is most definitely science fiction, although with a more “cop show” dynamic to it - much like the “X-Files”.
It’s one of only four shows I bother to watch - TSCC, Leverage, and now Dollhouse being the other three. I may explore some other shows at some point, but these are the only three that stand out for me in terms of concept, characters, and story lines. Everything else is pretty much “been there, done that”.
This week’s TSCC was a disaster. There were some excellent moments, notably the huge knock-down drag-em-fight between Riley and Jesse, resulting in one of the greatly desired moments of the series - the death of Riley. Man, did people hate that broad!
The problem with this week’s episode is precisely what I predicted and also what Summer Glau hinted at during the Q&A at WonderCon last Sunday - Friedman is screwing around with Cameron again! The guy just doesn’t let up with abusing his characters! It’s like he has a sadism streak in him. He’s messed with every character on the show except perhaps Catherine Weaver - probably because he likes Shirley Manson - or knows that he messed with her character, Shirley would have the balls to bitch about it publicly, whereas Summer is too nice and polite to do that.
We can only wait and see how badly he screws around with Summer’s character. It would be insane of him to kill off Cameron, given how massively popular she is. But some people suspect that Friedman knows the show is doomed, despite his disingenuous nonsense about “I know nothing about ratings” which he said on his blog and repeated again at WonderCon last Sunday. And therefore he might very well do that. I doubt it myself, but I can’t trust Friedman any more - he’s screwed up too many times this season.
March 9th, 2009 at 4:49 am
Not that this might affect the numbers at all, but the DVR experience of Dollhouse has been terrible. I DVR a lot of my shows and yet three weeks in a row dollhouse has only recorded for 30 minutes (not interrupted, the FOX scheduling just has it show up for 30 minutes)
March 9th, 2009 at 5:06 am
As much as i like Dollhouse and hope it will continue being on FOX , but i think it would have ben much better if dollhouse was on The CW , it would have put it on a respectful night and i am certain it was going to pass the 4 million viewer each week !!
March 9th, 2009 at 5:31 am
Last Friday’s episode of TSCC was actually pretty darn good. Far better than the three episodes before it. It was nice to finally see some action AND to finally see Reilly DIE. She was freakin’ annoying. Now if we could just get rid of the other chick–Derek’s girlfriend–before the series goes bye-bye…
This show had a ton of promise when it started. I think a certain someone drove it into the ground.
March 9th, 2009 at 6:29 am
According to this article, Dollhouse got beaten in the demo by UNIVISION:
http://www.medialifemagazine.com/artman2/publish/Overnights_50/20_20_special_roars_for_ABC_on_Friday.asp
March 9th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Michael, It’s actually rather common for Univision to beat at least one broadcast show (not including the CW) in the demo.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:27 am
TSCC 3 million? Thats horrible. TSCC, you are terminated. Its gotten so bad, Im not even watching it any more and just reading summary reviews of the episode. I will probably watch the series finale live - provided I remember its on and they dont pull it early. Dollhouse? Cant stand that show. Joss has really lost it. Time to retire.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Seriously? A Mexican soap gets a better demo than Dollhouse?
Damn.
March 9th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Is this true?? - Neilson only has about 20,000 viewers …that is the lamest thing I have ever heard…20,000 represent the entire nation?
This system IS flawed if that’s the case - !?! So it’s a matter of opinion more than anything….so really there could be 7 or 8 million people watching Sarah and we would never know it!?!
March 9th, 2009 at 10:56 am
neilson seem to know what their doing….
March 9th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Everything I hear about the Nielsen system makes me wonder how something so outdated hasn’t been updated in all these years…
March 9th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Jordan, it has and it will continue to be.
March 9th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
‘20,000 represent the entire nation?’
Yeah. It’s basic statistics - as long as you make sure the sample is representative, and you ask the right question, a sample of 1000 Americans will get the same answer as polling every single American to within a couple of percentage points.
Or, to put it another, way - how many people do you think you need?
There’s a great explanation here:
http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/sampstat.htm
But you see it with online polls, assuming the polls don’t get crashed - by the time ten people have responded, you can usually see roughly what the result is going to be.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Well, all I can suggest is that people’s standards have dropped impossibly low if Fringe now counts as Science Fiction.
Paranormal Cop Show sounds right. A “science fiction” show with no science… bizarre.
I’m depressed. And I don’t mean because I’ve seen T:SCC recently.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Any show which revolves around a “mad scientist” is generally considered science fiction. It’s not a comment on the quality of the show or whether the “science” is plausible. It’s just part of the definition of science fiction.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
squiggleslash have you even watched Fringe?
March 9th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Steve Jeffers, so you’re comparing TV watching to political polls? This isn’t a 2 channel system! Yes polling as few as 1000 people can provide statistically viable information if polled correctly (there are many polls that do horrible jobs and are off by as much as 10%, but get great PR because politicians like to point to them to show they’re doing better than they are).
TV viewing habits can not compare to most polling. There are just far too many variables. The same percentage of Niche Demos does not exist in every normal demo that Nielsen has to go after. If they’re looking for a college educated female between age of 18 and 34 with an income under $60,000 and single that’s fine. However when you start strategically going after groups, you lose the fact that niche demos in viewing aren’t going to get near close to being measured accurately.
SCI FI is a great example. There are certain demos that the percentage is higher for there being a SCI FI fan. Lets call it group X. Group X is more likely to watch SCI FI. Nielsen strategically measures group X in the same “national percentage,” that they’re in. The problem is Nielsen believes this provides statistically valid data. The problem is that SCI is a Nich Demo, and thus harder to accurately measure. So a SCI FI show is more likely to be inaccurately measured. TNS data has shown this in the past (TNS measures about 20 times the people that Nielsen does). The problem is that its only Niche Demos that are inaccurate and thus there aren’t enough people unhappy with Nielsen’s results.
Cable companies and Sat companies should just make it part of their agreement, if you order their service your viewing habits will be measured and shared for advertising purposes only.
Then we’d have more accurate numbers, but less “data,” about the viewers. Combine that with Nielsen and you might have something.
March 9th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
‘TV viewing habits can not compare to most polling.’
All I’m saying is that a relatively small sample can give very accurate models of the wider population. And that 25,000 is not a small sample.
The idea of my television telling someone what channel I’m tuned to is a pretty horrific one. And, of course, all it does is tell the company what channel I’m tuned to - not whether I’m watching, who’s with me, how much attention I’m paying or whatever.
The Nielsen system, as I said, has problems. Every system does. Sci Fi and the people who advertise on it know that they’re under-represented. I’d rather have a system where people know it’s roughly right, that keeps adjusting its model than everyone’s television watching them as they watch television.
‘For advertising purposes only’ … so, say, if a politician wanted to place some political ads, he’d have access to the data? Great.
March 9th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
320 Replies! WTH Robert — more people post her about Dollhouse than are watching it!
March 9th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
haha Mel, but it’s not just Dollhouse and most of these comments may have been regarding TSCC. it’s not atypical that shows that are on the bubble or facing certain doom draw the most comments.
March 9th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
LOL Its just too bad — TSCC could have been so much better — there certainly was the interest in it and I think Fox put a lot of time and $ into promoting it. (at least last year)
I’m still on the fence about Dollhouse. I want to like it? But not sure I do.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Yeah, I was out at watchmen. Sorry Sarah, will see you next week.
March 9th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
Nick C said “Cable companies and Sat companies should just make it part of their agreement, if you order their service your viewing habits will be measured and shared for advertising purposes only.” … “Then we’d have more accurate numbers, but less “data,” about the viewers. ”
So they really wouldn’t be more accurate at all. We’d have no idea of the age/gender/number of those watching. The data would be useless to advertisers.
March 10th, 2009 at 12:40 am
Fox looks like CW and NBC when they air shows in Friday.
March 10th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
John T Folden, they’d be much more accurate in overall numbers. Using that data along with Nielsen would actually provide data that advertisers would use and love. Why do advertisers buy data from TNS now? Because it supplements Nielsen data.
March 10th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Wow, I feel like I have just surfed into a fundamentalist religious gathering. That is one place, to my knowledge, where one finds tons of absolutist statements and attempts at prophecy. Now I realise you can also find em here.
Unlike others I won’t play in universalist statements. Instead I inend to speak in subjective tones: I like Dollhouse very much and have from the get go. I don’t like 24 (to much repetitiion). I don’t like Fringe (Abrams is the most overrated “auteur” which is quite an accomplishment for a nation that produces, for the most part,juvenile media mediocrities). I think Bones is an OK mediocrity. I don’t particularly like Terminator and hope Summer Glau ends up on Dollhouse if the latter survives.
As to the prophetic utterances I will just note that in the US longevity is determined in the final analysis by popularity rather than on the basis of quality (presumably in such a environment Ulysses would never get published). Caveat: only time will tell whether Dollhouse will be cancelled.
March 10th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
I still think fox should give tscc 12 fall shows and use a new approach to making the series , more like 24, with a badass john connor who is like jack bauer ! that would be more in tune with the movie and with a faster pace the show would be more appealing to more neilsen viewers
mel:
320 Replies! WTH Robert — more people post her about Dollhouse than are watching it!
maybe it means these shows tscc and DH have more viewers than indicated by neilsen?
March 20th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Dollhouse just needs to sex it up a little. TSCC,Fringe, The Unit, and Flashpoint had better NOT be canceled at all. They are the ONLY good shows on tv at all. PERIOD!
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:01 pm
These shows should move to sci-fi, with a cheaper budget, to fill the BSG gap. They’re both showing tons of promise and intelligence. Terminator’s last four episodes were some of the best scripted TV I’ve ever seen. I don’t know where the show can really go, due to the limitations in it by a past and future mythology, but it’s getting better and better, creatively, as is Dollhouse. It would be a shame to see these shows perish. Maybe their viewership is just too savvy to watch them at night, when they can be streamed on the computer more easily.
April 14th, 2009 at 10:32 am
We Love TSCC. And will be very sad to know if this is not going to at least wrap up. So? Are we rare to be out of the demographic? It seems to me this should be a baby boomer audience. We really have enjoyed this show and have never missed an episode. Don’t care for dollhouse so much. It is ok, but we don’t think about it or discuss why Cameron gave John Henry her chip type thing. Anyway, we do hope it will stay around at least long enough to end without a lot of speculation.
April 15th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Here is why tscc has struggled..for one..monday night football, fri nights alot of people are out no duh, and basketball season thats the ONLY reason, tscc had 6 million viewers,fox should give tscc another chance cuz its thier own damn fault for the shows struggle, tscc was also renewed and confirmed from a spoksman from fox because of looping storyarcs, also shows struggle from time to time, i think tscc had a rough second half and thats it and would recover in a better slot thats all they have to do
April 15th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
as long as the fox blog wiki is still up, i think thats a good indication of fall, cuz if tscc was FOR sure done that blog would have already been shut down and its not…
April 15th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
LOL @ judging renewal prospects based on a Wiki still being up. That’s funny!