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The Note, 4/23/09: Tortured Messaging: Confusion, contradictions leave Obama fighting battles he wanted over

April 23, 2009 8:25 AM

KleinBy RICK KLEIN

Is there an enhanced communications technique out there? Some black site where the Obama White House can take the narrative to keep its messaging safe? Is it legal to waterboard a storyline?

This week that was supposed to be about budget-cutting, energy initiatives, and consumer protection is now entirely and exclusively about Bush-era policies on detainee treatment. (Change, anyone?)

As for what to do, the disagreements are Democrat vs. Republican, House vs. Senate, leadership vs. committee chairman, rank-and-file vs. leadership, Netroots vs. Washington, and Obama administration vs. Obama administration.

The next days -- and maybe more than that -- will be consumed by questions of legal culpability, morality, and efficacy of practices that are no longer even being employed by the United States.

Before we even get there, Congress gets to devour some energy over what it should be looking at it and how it should be doing it. (And for your fresh headlines, Attorney General Eric Holder is on the Hill Thursday.)

If something positive will come out of expending political resources on this sort of peering backward, what exactly might that be? Was this part of anybody’s plan?

Fair to say it wasn’t the president’s plan: “Obama had hoped to put the whole matter behind him, first by banning those interrogation methods early in his presidency and then by releasing the memos last week with the proviso that no CIA official who carried out interrogations should be prosecuted,” Dan Balz and Perry Bacon Jr. write in a political tick-tock, in The Washington Post.

Obama quashed the commission idea internally, and the politics are spiraling: “The latest decision has stirred controversy on the right and the left. Obama has drawn sharp criticism from former vice president Richard B. Cheney, former CIA directors and Republican elected officials for releasing the memos. Those critics see softness in the commander in chief. He faces equally strong reaction from the left, where there is a desire to punish Bush administration officials for their actions and to conduct a more thorough investigation of what happened.”

Key insight: “Hopes for an immediate change in tone have withered. Republican opposition to his economic policies remains nearly unanimous. With this latest controversy, he is learning that neither the opponents nor the defenders of Bush's presidency are ready to move on,” Balz and Bacon write.

This is precisely the kind of bind that Team Obama had been seeking to avoid. It places the president between the anti-Bush fervor that continues to grip a large segment of his party, and the vows of a new tone that he’s struggled to bring to fruition in Washington.

Why this storyline has long legs: “Last week’s release of long-secret Justice Department interrogation memorandums has given rise to starkly opposing narratives about what, if anything, was gained by the C.I.A.’s use of waterboarding, wall-slamming and other physical pressure to shock and intimidate Qaeda operatives,” The New York Times’ Scott Shane writes. “For both sides, the political stakes are high, as proposals for a national commission to unravel the interrogation story appear to be gaining momentum. Mr. Obama and his allies need to discredit the techniques he has banned. Otherwise, in the event of a future terrorist attack, critics may blame his decision to rein in C.I.A. interrogators.”

What about a commission on commissions? “Democrats moved toward separate hearings in the House and Senate and seemed to be jostling each other for leadership roles on the issue, all but ignoring Obama's effort to head off an uncontrolled, partisan sprint toward a rash of probes that could impair the foreign policy he now steers,” Larry Margasak writes for the AP.

What about that new era? “Prosecuting Republican appointees may destroy any semblance of national security bipartisanship, as well as further expose Obama to opposition-party accusations that he’s jeopardizing the nation’s safety in case of another terrorist attack,” Bloomberg’s Jeff Bliss and Justin Blum report. 

Clarity, anyone? “[The president’s] response has been halting and hesitant. His message has been uncharacteristically muddied. And he is paying the price, at least in terms of message control,” Howard Fineman writes for Newsweek. “For an administration that has prided itself on clarity of expression, it is all getting very confusing very fast.”

Don’t forget the broader context (since Karl Rove doesn’t): “Mr. Obama acts as if no past president -- except maybe Abraham Lincoln -- possesses his wisdom,” Rove writes in his Wall Street Journal column. “A superstar, not a statesman, today leads our country. That may win short-term applause from foreign audiences, but do little for what should be the chief foreign policy preoccupation of any U.S. president: advancing America's long-term interests.”

Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., wants a “Truth Commission” that grants immunity; House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., doesn’t want to grant immunity; Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and friends don’t want prosecutions. (Who’s on whose side?)

ABC’s Jonathan Karl: “Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi made it clear today that the congressional showdown over the CIA's interrogation policies is just beginning. The speaker told reporters there would be multiple congressional hearings on the issue and urged the creation of a ‘truth commission’ to investigate as well.  Investigations should go forward, Pelosi said, without granting immunity ‘in a blanket way’ to those who created and carried out the policies.”

Nancy Pelosi’s hometown paper: “Pelosi backs anti-terror truth commission.”

Harry Reid’s hometown paper: “Reid declines forming panel to probe Bush interrogation tactics.”

Even Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton could be coaxed into playing politics on this one: “Well, it won't surprise you, I don't consider him a particularly reliable source of information,” Clinton said when asked by a GOP House member about former Vice President Dick Cheney’s request to declassify more memos.

Dangers of looking backward: “To go back and start penalizing or punishing a previous administration is what a banana republic does,” Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said on ABCNews.com’s “Top Line.” “Our country has never done that, and I think this is a terrible step in the wrong direction.”

Why prosecute? “There’s work to do. Obama’s right: America should look ahead, not back,” Roger Cohen writes in his column. “A Truth Commission could address the broad collapse of accountability that opened the way for an imperial presidency and the use of cruel and inhuman treatment, while avoiding a facile search for scapegoats that would allow too many to disregard their own small measure of responsibility.”

Realistically, can this happen? “First, the lawyers would have to be shown to have deliberately misinterpreted the law against torture,” David G. Savage and Josh Meyer write in the Los Angeles Times. “The other problem looms even larger. How could the government prosecute the mid-level lawyers who wrote memos but not the top officials -- including former President George W. Bush and former Vice President Dick Cheney -- who ultimately authorized the waterboarding of suspected Al Qaeda operatives?”

“It could create a partisan firestorm that Mr. Obama, who has said he wants to concentrate on fixing the economy and on other parts of his agenda, would prefer to avoid for political reasons,” The New York Times’ Charlie Savage writes. “And, like the interrogators, the policy makers could argue that government lawyers assured them the program was legal.”

What a week to lose your communications director: “What is wrong with the Obama communications team? After months of top-notch messaging, this week has been an unmitigated disaster -- and it’s only Wednesday,” Alex Conant blogs. “First was Obama’s ill-conceived and poorly executed announcement Monday that he was ordering his Cabinet to cut $100 million from the Federal government’s $3.6 trillion budget. Then came the bizarre statements from the Administration on torture yesterday, with the President unexpectedly flip-flopping on potential prosecutions of former government officials at the same time that the Director of National Intelligence penned a memo arguing that the practices produced ‘high-value information.’ ” 

Moving along, and ahead . . . From the White House, at 1 pm ET, “the President will meet with the representatives of the credit card industry about the impact of the current crisis on consumers in the Roosevelt Room. President Obama has been a strong proponent of cleaning up the practices of the credit card industry since he was a Senator and he called for measures to strengthen consumer protection in the credit card market during the campaign.”

The message from the president: “They need to clean up their acts,” ABC’s Jake Tapper reports. “He’ll tell them that he supports greater protections for consumers.” And with legislation pending on Capitol Hill, the president will threaten that “this will be done with their cooperation, or without it,” Tapper reports.

The AP’s Ben Feller: “President Barack Obama, appealing to mainstream consumers, is pushing for more legal protection for the millions of Americans who use credit cards. Obama was meeting with leaders of the credit-card industry Thursday, and he's already backing tougher legislation.”

The meeting is sort of stacked against the credit-card companies: “They aren’t likely to make much headway: Obama is pressing for consumer protections that go beyond proposals approved yesterday by a U.S. House committee and rules issued last year by the Federal Reserve,” Bloomberg’s Lorraine Woellert and Alexis Leondis report.

Also Thursday, Obama is on the Hill to make remarks at the Holocaust Days of Remembrance ceremony.

Plus, Hill leaders from both parties come to the White House for a 2:15 pm ET meeting with the president and Vice President Joe Biden.

Watch this gel: “The early-verdict stories are going to be written, creating both a challenge and opportunity for the new president. So senior White House aides are playing the game with relish, doling out made-to-order anecdotes and what-it-means analytical insights to help reporters write their 100 days pieces,” Politico’s John F. Harris and Jim VandeHei write. “You can already see the results in a spate of stories that -- thanks to competitive pressures -- editors are deciding to publish before the actual 100th day.”

Also this: “What has happened so far is no more than the overture to the first act of this opera. The big stuff is still to come. The soprano has not opened her mouth for her signature aria. That will be health-care reform. The devilish baritone is still offstage. Wait for the first international crisis,” David Broder writes in his column.

“The most important thing we now know about Barack Obama, after nearly 100 days in office, is that he means to confront that way of life directly and profoundly, to exchange sand for rock if he can. Whether you agree with him or not -- whether you think he is too ambitious or just plain wrong -- his is as serious and challenging a presidency as we have had in quite some time,” Time’s Joe Klein writes.

The AP’s 100-day poll, per Ron Fournier’s write-up: “For the first time in years, more Americans than not say the country is headed in the right direction, a sign that Barack Obama has used the first 100 days of his presidency to lift the public's mood and inspire hopes for a brighter future. Intensely worried about their personal finances and medical expenses, Americans nonetheless appear realistic about the time Obama might need to turn things around, according to an Associated Press-GfK poll. It shows most Americans consider their new president to be a strong, ethical and empathetic leader who is working to change Washington.”

Also marking 100 days: The DNC is out with a new Web video Thursday. “Until the Republicans have something other than saying no to Obama’s agenda,” the ad says. ”They’re the Party of Dr. No.” 

(One of the unwilling stars of the ad -- Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., the top Republican on the House Budget Committee, is the headliner on ABCNews.com’s “Top Line” Thursday.”)

More from the annals of the “Party of No.” AFSCME and Americans United for Change have a new ad going up Thursday that attacks Republicans for providing little or no support on some of the big ticket agenda items from Obama's first 100 days. “There have always been those who said NO to progress. But in times of crisis, Americans have never taken NO for an answer,” says the narrator.

Pushing back -- and triangulating anew: House Republicans are bringing a letter into their meeting with President Obama this afternoon at the White House -- making Speaker Pelosi into the culprit.

“As you approach your first 100 days in office, House Republicans remain committed to working with you and your Administration to address the needs of hardworking American families and small businesses that continue to face unprecedented challenges,” reads the letter, signed by House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, Minority Whip Eric Cantor, R-Va., and the rest of the leadership team. “Unfortunately, there has been a sad lack of bipartisanship. This lack of bipartisanship has been a major detriment to your stated desire to change the way that Washington works.”

“Democratic leaders in Congress have so far ignored your call for a new era of bipartisanship in Washington -- however the next 100 days can be different,” the letter reads.

Also ginned up by the House GOP: “House Republicans are calling on Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano to step down or be fired in the wake of a controversial department memo that has sparked indignant battle cries from conservatives and some veterans,” Politico’s Patrick O’Connor writes.

“Singling out political opponents for working against the ruling party is precisely the tactic of every tyrannical government from Red China to Venezuela,” said Rep. John Carter, R-Texas, per Roll Call’s Jackie Kucinich.

On energy (remember when that was going to be the focus of the week?) -- the SEIU, League of Conservation Voters, MoveOn.org Political Action, VoteVets, Center for American Progress, the Blue Green Alliance, Environmental Defense Fund and others groups are taming up to press for the president’s energy economy plan. The new ad is up Thursday.

Must-read: ABC’s George Stephanopoulos brings the back story of his trip to Tehran to interview Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -- including details of Iranian conspiracy theories, and the latest on imprisoned American journalist Roxana Saberi.

Meet “Periodista Jake”: ABC’s Jake Tapper gets a shout-out in Fidel Castro’s newspaper column, where Castro says President Obama “misinterpreted” his brother’s comments.

Seriously? He needs . . . more time? “Norm Coleman asked the state Supreme Court on Wednesday to set a slower timetable than his rival seeks in the next phase of the protracted U.S. Senate race,” Kevin Duchschere and Bob Van Sternberg write in the Minneapolis Star Tribune. “Coleman, a Republican, proposed to the court that his appeal of Democrat Al Franken's victory in the recent Senate election trial be argued no sooner than mid-May, two weeks later than Franken suggested on Tuesday.”

A Bill Ayers appearance: “Two months after Boston College canceled a scheduled appearance by Ayers, the onetime member of the 1960s militant antiwar organization the Weather Underground will be at Brandeis University next Thursday and will be welcomed by students and school administrators,” The Boston Globe’s Jenna Nierstedt reports. 


The Kicker:

“It might be further useful to have such a commission so that it removes all doubt that how we protect the American people is in a values-based way.” -- House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., on the possibility of a “Truth Commission.”

“I believe what we have to do is wait until the Intelligence Committee finishes its work.” -- Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., on the possibility of a “Truth Commission.”

Don’t miss “Top Line,” ABCNews.com’s daily political Webcast, hosted by Rick Klein and David Chalian, at noon ET. Thursday’s guests: Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., and Politico’s Mike Allen.

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April 23, 2009 in The Note | Permalink | User Comments (215)

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I vote for an era of accountability. Maybe the torture thing would be a good place to start, followed by some Wall St. execs and the politicians that they own.

Posted by: Steve From NH | Apr 23, 2009 9:04:18 AM

obama opened up a can of worms far as im concerned if it worked fine with me a littl bath isnt going kill anyone.

Posted by: natale from mass. | Apr 23, 2009 9:08:08 AM

Steve From NH - : yep - and you can start with pelosi who was thoroughly briefed and approved these methods. this is not just a democrat versus republican issue if that's what you're implying.

Posted by: Larry | Apr 23, 2009 9:16:37 AM

Natale from Mass. et. al.:
It's not just "the little bath" as you so lovingly name waterboarding. It's a written list of inhumane activities that are ruled acceptable procedures to be used on prisoners by their captors.
In this case, it enabled private contractors hired by the US to
TORTURE
prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Some of whom were undeniably innocent.
Next time you're giving someone a "little bath", hold 'em under for a minute or two if you want to get the full effect. Then, keep them awake for a few days. Naked. In a 50 degree room. While screaming at them the whole time. And dogs, on a leash, barking. For days.
Now, imagine that is happening to your son or daughter in a prison in North Korea.
Not right for them, certainly not right for us. We were supposed to be better than that.

Posted by: Steve From NH | Apr 23, 2009 9:24:12 AM

The Bush Administration Started The Torture to try and link Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden to Justify the War In Iraq! so there you have it Saddam Had nothing to do with 911 So the Administration Lied tortured, and Broke the Law NOW SEND THEM ALL TO JAIL!

Posted by: Angie in Pa | Apr 23, 2009 9:25:07 AM

Ranking members of Congress were all briefed on the interrogation techniques, now they all ACT outraged. A politician opening up a "truth commission". I think there's an oxymoron in there somewhere.

Posted by: betsy | Apr 23, 2009 9:25:54 AM

Not implying democrat vs. republican at all. Let the chips fall where they may.

Posted by: Steve From NH | Apr 23, 2009 9:27:16 AM

How funny. Obama is so niave it is really scary. What did he think was going to happen when he released the memos??? Why??? I will promise you one thing, the rest od the world (including terrorist) are laughing at how weak we are. This is simply pathetic.

Posted by: billy bob | Apr 23, 2009 9:28:34 AM

Steve From NH I agree it was a lot of different techniques they used. The one that was probably the absolute worse is where they actually put bugs on a guy. This is just unexcuseable.

Posted by: billy bob | Apr 23, 2009 9:31:38 AM

Billy Bob
and thanks to the Bush Adminstration and their Lies and breaking laws is why we are Pathetic and the rest of the world is laughing at us! THANKS A BUNCH BUSH/CHENEY

Posted by: Angie in Pa | Apr 23, 2009 9:32:12 AM

Got that right. This is the dumbest move he can make. It will make the US less safe, and he is opening a can of worms most Americans don't agree with. I think this is the start of his downfall. All the promises on a "new beginning etc.. what a lie." This is using his political power to extend the law. What gives him the right to investigate anyone? NO president has ever done this and by doing so will make us less secure. What a nieve president we have. What a complete idiot to be honest. We care more about the terrorists than we do about Americans in this country whose #1 job was to keep us from being attacked.

Posted by: chad | Apr 23, 2009 9:34:54 AM

Yes, by God! They should keep all that crap secret. The American public does not need to know, just keep us safe. As for those warrant-less wire taps, if you are not saying something you should not be saying, you got nothing to worry about.

Posted by: Carl Spackler | Apr 23, 2009 9:35:31 AM

speaking of "complete idiots," the word is spelled "naive," not nieve.

Posted by: William J. LePetomane | Apr 23, 2009 9:37:59 AM

Torture does not work because the information is not reliable. As far back as the middle ages, people confessed to anything just to stop the torture. Even though it meant they would be put to death. How can you say it is different today? Rep or Dem doesn't matter. It stops and those who approved this should be questioned vigorously - Maybe a "little bath" like the ones they gave.

Posted by: kay | Apr 23, 2009 9:45:32 AM

steve from nh oh im crying youll never change my mind your just abunch of crying libs.and angie who cares what the rest of the world thinks.

Posted by: natale from mass. | Apr 23, 2009 9:45:49 AM

Thank God we poured water on the faces of the scumbags who were plotting to blow up buildings in LA and in NY. The interrogations DIRECTLY saved thousands of Americans' lives, but that is of little consequence to the liberals.

Waterboarding is not torture, and all of the liberals screaming that it is are simply wrong.

Liberals do not care at all about protecting the United States. Listening to many of them on TV, with all of their anti-American rhetoric, one might think that they are rooting for the terrorists to win.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 9:45:55 AM

Kay

First of all, waterboarding is not torture it's pouring water on the faces of scumbags who would cut your head off in an instant . Second, we obtained valuable info from the interrogations. Including the knowledge about an upcoming attack that was aimed at LA.

Experts said that thousands of lives were saved- innocent American lives.

Alas, liberals could not care less. They don't think America is a great country to begin, so it's no shock that they don't want to lift a finger to protect it.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 9:51:31 AM

Obama made the decision to cave to the left, so it's his own fault for botching the torture story.

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Posted by: matt | Apr 23, 2009 9:55:55 AM

Torture did not keep anyone safe. Moral issues aside, torture is at best a short term gain of info with a long term cost. And that short term info is suspect as the historical use of torture has been to elicit false confessions, not to gain intelligence. Long term we lose the support of allies and turn them away from us. No matter what you think about the role of allies, any help combating terrorism is a boon and increases the chances of success. Torture also gives the terrorists a propaganda tool to help recruit and drives them never to surrender and commit even more extreme acts to avoid capture. We lose all moral high ground in dealing with them, making us the powerful bully in the world, not the example of freedom our country was founded on. The fact of that matter is that the US has laws against torture, and we have signed treaties to say we would not torture. In both cases Bush administration officials have clearly broken these laws and no one should be above the law.

Posted by: Ordermonger | Apr 23, 2009 9:58:00 AM

Mr. LePetomane,
The misspelling of the word "naive" does not, in my opinion, make Chad a
"complete idiot." I think everyone understands the direction of Chad's comments. Even if one disagrees, there is never need to refer to anyone as an idiot.

Posted by: Percy | Apr 23, 2009 9:58:13 AM

Angie in PA

Get off the whole "world" thing.

The "rest of world" is at it ALWAYS has been- insanely jealous of the USA. And why wouldn't they be? In a little over 200 years, America crushed the economies of countries that had been fumbling along for thousands of years (thank you capitalism).

We have the best healthcare in THE WORLD (if you are rich living in asia or EU, you come to America for treatment).

We have the best schools in THE WORLD (most wealthy people send their children to America to be educated).

We have the most powerful military in THE WORLD (we are the world's cop who everyone loves to complain about, but we are ALWAYS the one everyone looks to for help).

We are the wealthiest nation in the history of THE WORLD (our poor people are fat).

We have become the generous nation in THE WORLD (give more $$ to AIDS relief and global charities then any other nation in history).

Who cares what the nazi germans, the communist chinese, the weak and corrupt french, or the south american slum lords care about us. They are all JEALOUS of us and wish they could be as great as the USA.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 10:02:16 AM

The Bush admistration approved the use of SERE techniques that were used to train soldiers to withstand torture upon prisoners. The SERE techniques were put in place to help soldiers withstand torture, not so that they divulged info, but to prevent them from making false confessions and give progaganda to the enemy. During the Korean and Vietnam war torture was used to make american soldiers confess to things they had not done. All the way back to the Middle Ages that is what torture was used for -- false confessions that were given out even if that person would be put to death for it. My that just sounds like a horribly accurate way to gather information. Torture is no better and in some ways worse than other methods of interrogation. But it is much more morally offensive and against the law.

Posted by: Ordermonger | Apr 23, 2009 10:03:05 AM

Dave
Do you Know for sure they were Terriost were they Actually Guilty of Terriosm why Because they were Muslims?

Posted by: Angie in Pa | Apr 23, 2009 10:07:32 AM

a little shot of high potency truth-serum goes a long way, we are supposed to honor and live by our good morals; thats a sign of greatness.

Posted by: jam | Apr 23, 2009 10:07:47 AM

Dave,
First the US has some of the worst preventitive health care in the develope world. The only thing the US is good at is expensive surgeries and techniques cause that is where the money is. But for everyday doctor visits and preventitive care like say diabetes Canada and Britain are much better.
Second, our poor people are fat because the only food they can afford is horrible for you. Say like spam, hot dogs, and such. They can't afford to buy fruits and vegetables and get what they can. This is not a good thing nor an indication that they are well off as they have a nutritionally very poor diet.

Posted by: Ordermonger | Apr 23, 2009 10:08:10 AM

Dave
Your right I give up with you Who Cares we dont need Allies we Dont Need any of them we dont need their Help In other Countries stopping the Terriost to hell with them right Dave

Posted by: Angie in Pa | Apr 23, 2009 10:09:42 AM

Wow...torture techniques as a political metaphor. Now that's writing! Can't wait for your comparison of German WWII medical experiments on prisoners to the debate on universal health care.

Posted by: Tom | Apr 23, 2009 10:11:02 AM

As noted, the Torture issue is the 'lead story.' And several Ex CIA Officials, in interviews 4/22/09 seem to have captured the essence of where we are, as "The Leader of The Free World" saying; "we have sunk to a real all-time low, when we suggest America, alone refuses to accept Established International Law." (paraphrased) The question becomes; "how can you Lead when you refuse to accept International Rules, that as the Leader you helped establish?"

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 10:11:46 AM

I have a question. why is fox news the only media that has any information about the health care plan essentially being steamrolled through congress? The democrats have voted to invoke a little know rule that limits debate and esentially prevents any real compromises from the other side. SO MUCH FOR BIPARTISAN DISCUSSION IN THIS CONGRESS. PELOSI AND REID NEED TO BE FIRED. Call your congressman and senator if you do not agree with the proposed plan.

Posted by: mj | Apr 23, 2009 10:14:04 AM

"The "rest of world" is at it ALWAYS has been- insanely jealous of the USA."

Lofl! Dave, you're killing me, bud. The USA wasn't of any consideration to the "rest of the world" until WWII. So, your bold ALWAYS is freaking hilarious. Also, you obviously haven't talked to many people in the "rest of the world." There certainly are plenty of people who are poor who wish they had been lucky enough to be born into a prosperous economic situation, such as that of the US in the last 50 years, but I wouldn't go jumping to many more conclusions beyond that.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:15:48 AM

All this take about torture is mkaing me crazy. The protests come predominantly from a group of people that think it's child abuse to swat your child on the behind.

Posted by: MJ | Apr 23, 2009 10:18:30 AM

Dave | Apr 23, 2009 9:45:55 AM

..."Waterboarding is not torture, and all of the liberals screaming that it is are simply wrong. Liberals do not care at all about protecting the United States. Listening to many of them on TV, with all of their anti-American rhetoric, one might think that they are rooting for the terrorists to win." ...
______________________

As usual, as an AUTHORITY....... You're addressing this to The Commanding General of Abu Ghraib and several of the CIA Officials who participated in 'carrying out' these acts of torture???

Posted by:

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 10:20:55 AM

This is one issue he needs to go with his own feelings on. I'll be disappointed if he allows Pelosi, et al to flip him. I really don't think he will, but we'll see.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:21:03 AM

Dave makes waterboarding sound like someone with a garden hose rinsing them down. Those being interrogated are tied to a board unable to move. A towel is placed of their face while water is poured over them to simulate drowning. This is used to train the military NOT to make false confessions which indicates to me that the military knows such practices can solicit just that - false confession to stop the practice. Until I see proof that the information was accurate ant these upcoming attacks were fact, I will say that we should be above torture.

Posted by: kay | Apr 23, 2009 10:21:21 AM

Raise your hand if you'd like to see Dave waterboarded prior to hearing any more from him on the subject of whether or not it constitutes torture?

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:24:08 AM

"Dave makes waterboarding sound like someone with a garden hose rinsing them down."

Yeah, but Dave's a world class idiot, so whatevs.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:25:19 AM

Silky

We have gone over this before. You obviously haven't lived anywhere in "the rest of the world"- I have.

Does that make me an expert? No. But it does give me the ability to challenge many of the liberal lies that are contantly being told about how terrible America is. We live in the greatest country the world has ever seen, and listening to a liberal talk about it, you would think he or she was describing albania.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 10:26:04 AM

I thought waterboarding allowed for the ol' grab by the hair and hold the head underwater trick? I recall reading that.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:27:09 AM

"But it does give me the ability to challenge many of the liberal lies that are contantly being told about how terrible America is."

Huh?

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:28:41 AM

Please give examples of these "liberal lies that are constantly being told about how terrible America is."

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:33:11 AM

Silky

Raise your hand if you would like to see silky thrown to the taliban? I am sure those nutjobs would be very appreciative of all of the manhours he has spent defending their right to plot to kill innocent Americans.

I bet they would thank him so much for being their allie, as most liberals are, that would only cut one of his hands off before decapitating him. Afterall, he is an infidel!

(not that I want to see you killed silk, just making a point)

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 10:33:15 AM

One thing for sure here. If a major city is nuked everyone (including liberals) will be calling for Obamas head and waterboarding will seem quit tame.

Posted by: billy bob | Apr 23, 2009 10:37:01 AM

Prosecution will be the end of the Obama administration. I hope they proceed with their leftist agenda so that we can get back to normal and put some adults back in the White House.

Posted by: Concerned Houstonian | Apr 23, 2009 10:40:55 AM

"Raise your hand if you would like to see silky thrown to the taliban? I am sure those nutjobs would be very appreciative of all of the manhours he has spent defending their right to plot to kill innocent Americans."

When have I EVER defended anybody's right to plot to kill innocent Americans? Dave, at least TRY to think before you speak.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:42:50 AM

"One thing for sure here. If a major city is nuked everyone (including liberals) will be calling for Obamas head and waterboarding will seem quit tame."

That's Cheney's argument in a nutshell and it makes me sick.

Why do I get the feeling Cheney would willingly give a rightwinger the tools to make it happen, just so he could say "look, you needed me to keep you safe." I get a sick feeling in my stomach listening to Cheney link keeping us safe with accepting torture, wiretapping and increased executive power, ( but only when a rightwinger is President.)

Posted by: Amy in Maine | Apr 23, 2009 10:48:40 AM

Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:24:08 AM

Silky, you suggested; "Raise your hand if you'd like to see Dave waterboarded prior to hearing any more from him on the subject of whether or not it constitutes torture? ...
_______________

Silky, I don't think highly of Dave, at all. But I not so hateful as to wish Torture upon him! While he also charges me with being a "Softie Lib", I simply associate "waterboarding" with forcing someone to the "brink of death" by drowning. And I can logically contrast that with determining how much Electricity the human body can sustain and inflicting electrical shocks until the person is brought to a comparable "brink of death" by electrocution!

Posted by:

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 10:50:15 AM

Amy in Maine What should make you sike is that a city being nuked is a real possibility and will probably happen in your life time. Obama has just made that possibility more plausable, now that makes me sick.

Posted by: billy bob | Apr 23, 2009 10:56:46 AM

Memos on Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae? Don't hold your breath!

Posted by: LongT | Apr 23, 2009 10:58:02 AM

I think somebody advocating torture, while employing the rationale that the act is NOT torture should experience it himself in order to appreciate the reality. That is not wishing torture on somebody, but wishing to have somebody with a voice educted on what they're pontificating about. Dave does no operate in reality. I think that might help him come down to earth a little bit.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:59:34 AM

Amy in Maine What should make you sick is that obama has made the possibility of someone nuking a city more feasible. That should make everyone sick.

Posted by: billy bob | Apr 23, 2009 11:01:37 AM

"Waterboarding is not torture, and all of the liberals screaming that it is are simply wrong."
________________________

Dave

Anyone who believes in the Constitution of the United States knows waterboarding is unconstitutional.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 11:01:41 AM

Interesting "Censorship Tool" ABC's now using to control speech.

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 11:03:57 AM

"Amy in Maine What should make you sick is that obama has made the possibility of someone nuking a city more feasible. That should make everyone sick."

Um. How is that?

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 11:04:30 AM

"Amy in Maine What should make you sick is that obama has made the possibility of someone nuking a city more feasible. That should make everyone sick."
Posted by: billy bob | Apr 23, 2009 11:01:37 AM
_____________

I know you are well-equiped with that middle school diploma, but I have to ask:

Where do you 'experts' get this C R A P?

If you repeat fallacies enough times, do you believe it becomes true?

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 11:07:27 AM

Silky | Apr 23, 2009 10:59:34 AM

..."I think that might help him come down to earth a little bit." ...
_________________

... Anyone 'as far out' as Dave is generally oblivious to pain!

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 11:08:50 AM

It doesn't matter if torture techniques are effective or not. They are illegal. Until they become legal (with changes in both domestic and international laws that we ascribe to), effectiveness is irrelevant.

Accountability is the raison d'etre of our legal system. Isn't that still important? Isn't that what it means to be a "nation of laws"?

Posted by: Joseph | Apr 23, 2009 11:12:00 AM

"I bet they would thank him so much for being their allie, as most liberals are, that would only cut one of his hands off before decapitating him. Afterall, he is an infidel!
(not that I want to see you killed silk, just making a point)"
Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 10:33:15 AM
_______________

*Sigh.

..another day of thwarting the mentally unstable.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 11:12:38 AM

bobj72

Some of these dirtballs were waterboarded 180 times, I highly doubt they were on the "brink of death", as you claim.

Of course I am going to call you a softie lib when you say ridiculous things like that. Your mentality of "hugs for everyone" will place Americans in an even more dangerous situation then we currently are in.

As I have said before, the terrorists LOVE liberal talking points so that they can exploit them into helping kill more innocent Americans.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 11:13:50 AM

Who says waterboarding is wrong? What would you call a beheading? How come you don't have any rage on that topic you lib panzies.

Posted by: chad | Apr 23, 2009 11:14:26 AM

If a strong case emerges that the Bush administration authorized torture and got nothing but prisoners’ desperate fabrications in return, that will tarnish what Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney have claimed as their greatest achievement: preventing new attacks after Sept. 11, 2001.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 11:16:36 AM

"Accountability is the raison d'etre of our legal system. Isn't that still important? Isn't that what it means to be a 'nation of laws'?"
Posted by: Joseph | Apr 23, 2009 11:12:00 AM
___________________

merci beaucoup.
[secret liberal code language]

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 11:18:56 AM

We can now add blind hatred to the democrats - they all knew and went along with it. Forget it saved thousands of lives - forget the fact these animals killed over 3,000 men women and children - forget the fact thta we no longer go the boarding gates in airports to welcome our parents and the lines we must indure. They should have drowned them all.

Democrats do nothing but hate - they contribute nothing just look at reid and pelosi NOTHING is their claim to fame as it is with Obama.

There os only one word for demoncrats that fits punks.

Posted by: A citizen | Apr 23, 2009 11:19:19 AM

We can now add blind hatred to the democrats - they all knew and went along with it. Forget it saved thousands of lives - forget the fact these animals killed over 3,000 men women and children - forget the fact thta we no longer go the boarding gates in airports to welcome our parents and the lines we must indure. They should have drowned them all.

Democrats do nothing but hate - they contribute nothing just look at reid and pelosi NOTHING is their claim to fame as it is with Obama.

There os only one word for demoncrats that fits punks.

Posted by: A citizen | Apr 23, 2009 11:19:23 AM

Is the efficiency of torture the core question, or is it an attempt to distract people from the fact that it violates the US constitution and the Geneva convention?

If torture is OK because it "works", then what isn't OK? If someone "proves" that ethnic cleansing or human trafficking makes the country safer, shouldn't we go for it?

The [bottom]line is not whether something "works" or not, the [bottom]line is the Constitution.

Posted by: Le Gui | Apr 23, 2009 11:22:48 AM

Stick a needle in the top terrorists we still have in custody. I saw that Condi Rice gave the green light for waterboarding. That is awesome. Now I can say the libs are going after her because she's black. Hahahahahaha! This is probably why they are thrown off. They thought it was going to be Cheney!

Posted by: GK_1970 | Apr 23, 2009 11:23:43 AM

If I were to conclude that robbing people's houses or dealing crack can be lucrative, should I do it? So, if crime pays, should we become criminals? Do we really want to encourage the world to adopt torture?

Posted by: Barbar1 | Apr 23, 2009 11:24:13 AM

A. People under torture do not tell the truth but only what they think will stop the torture, i.e.the pain;

B. Therefore, they only say what they think the torturer wants to hear;

C. That is not giving the torturer any knowledge to interfere with what is going on elsewhere;

D. Cancellation of International Law is a start for cancelling Domestic Law and Rights (viz. Patriot Act and NAZI German "Reichstag's Fire");

E. Violating the Constitution is more of a good reason for Empeachment than an Intern under the desk;

F. In Nuremberg, in 1948, people were hanged for authorizing torture.

G. Saddam Hussein was not bin Ladin's ally but a fierce enemy

H. Thus, Hussein's was a protective force against Terrorism;

I. Hussein's Iraq was even the most advanced -and women promoting- country in the Middle East - after Israel, maybe;

J. There were NO WMDs !

K. So, the whole torturing was an attempt by criminals to find an excuse for their crimes.

Posted by: Joan B. | Apr 23, 2009 11:27:20 AM

Don't let the right wing detour us yet again - the argument isn't about whether torture works; a country with the principles on which America was founded simply should not be involved in torture in any way, shape or form.

My mother was one of the founding members of the Conservative party in New York. The party at that time was so different from the right wing traitors we have today.

Whenever we watched a WWII movie, she would remind me that Americans never tortured people and always treated their prisoners with respect, compared to the Axis enemies. That's what made us Americans.

Posted by: Zig, Maryland | Apr 23, 2009 11:28:51 AM

"There os only one word for demoncrats that fits punks."
Posted by: A citizen | Apr 23, 2009 11:19:19 AM
____________________

?

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 11:30:52 AM

Bush (who's conveniently out of the country) and Cheney (who once refused to talk about anything and now cant be shut up) can claim anything they want. History shows we went into the Iraq War for reasons that can only be described as lies. And the result has been nearly a trillion dollars spent and countless lives lost... all because of lies.

Posted by: sean | Apr 23, 2009 11:32:06 AM

President Obama seems to be legitimately conflicted. Seeking justice feels a lot like seeking vengeance and retribution - Obama does not this flavor for his Presidency. But Justice is not easy. ............


http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/04/23/the-two-edged-sword-of-justice/

Posted by: Ohg Rea Tone | Apr 23, 2009 11:32:35 AM

Barbara

Believe me, if the rest of the world "adopted" America's interrogation tactics the world would be a far better place.
There would be no beheadings posted on the internet on a weekly basis. No one would ever be dismbowled, have their fingernails ripped off, or be subjected to terrible beatings at the hands of islamic whackjobs.

Those captured would be waterboared, and that's it. Those interrogated would live another day and would walk away completely scar free, with all of their limbs still intact.

Yes, if everyone emulated the USA, the world would be a far better place.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 11:33:09 AM

Bad intelligence from torture led to 4267 American deaths in Iraq, destabilized the entire region, drained our military, and allowed Afghanistan to fall back to the Taliban, who assisted with the 9/11 attacks.

Posted by: Sarah | Apr 23, 2009 11:33:35 AM

This reminds me of the three generation syndrome; The first is entrepunerial and earns wealth. The second generation tries their best to preserve it. The third generation doesn't have a clue and blows it. Of course there are exceptions, like the ML Kings.

Posted by: LongT | Apr 23, 2009 11:34:55 AM

The ONLY "Saving Grace" we have -vs- the "Radical right-edge" is WE (Liberal, Moderate and Independent "Thinkers") OUTNUMBER THEM, about 70/30!!! And Don't Forget That!

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 11:36:46 AM

"Who says waterboarding is wrong? What would you call a beheading? How come you don't have any rage on that topic you lib panzies."

Oh how I wish I could have people like you say this to my face so that I could show you the degree to which I am a "lib pazie."

Is beheading Americans bad? Yes. Is using that as justification for the U.S. to torture people reatarded? Of course it is. If we're going to torture, it's not because others do it. And if you proposed that in any serious discussion you would be eye-rolled out of the room, if not laughed out.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 11:38:00 AM

the " torture" was not torture by any reasonable definition. No pain inflicted and no physical harm. It is a psychological technique just like putting a person in a box with an insect. People who are in an uproar about this need to start valuing the lives of Americans instead of wet faces of terrorist. This uproar by the liberal nuts has reached the insanity level.

Posted by: brian | Apr 23, 2009 11:40:20 AM

Zig, so your mom served in WWII? How about the internment camps set up in the US during WWII? Was that treating people with respect and allowing them freedom? You and your mother are not Conservatives. You call yourself Conservative in an attempt to break down true Conservatives. You're a "mole."

Posted by: GK_1970 | Apr 23, 2009 11:40:24 AM

Joan B

Stop your ranting and listen to reason. Waterboarding is not torture, no matter how many liberal idiots say that it is.

The Central Intelligence Agency said waterboarding the al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed caused him to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Hundreds, if not thousands of innocent American lives were spared because they dunked that islamic extremist underwater. It certainly seems worth it to me. How can you say the lives of those people don't warrant waterboarding (a technique our own navy SEALS use in their training programs).

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 11:40:26 AM

The reality of the situation is that this "technique" was used. In polite society, Americans condemn the use of cruel punishment and act horrified at the idea that the US would do this. In the real world, in the military, and in covert operations hard decisions have to be made and the people making the decisions have to live with that reality for the rest of their lives. Our government has had to do gut-wrenching things to protect us, and I empathize with that fact. The bombing of Hiroshima, blanketing the chemicals throughout the jungles of Vietnam, and yes; intensive interrogations of high-ranking prisoners, are all decisions that were not made lightly but were made and it probably cost innocent people their lives. The question in my mind is "Was it used on POWs during wartime or on detainees who did not have due process and were not found guilty?" But we should understand that the decisions that were made were made with full acceptance and approval of a complete government, Dems and Repubs and everyone in between. They all sat up in D.C. and either by vote, consensus, or abstaining had knowledge of these techniques and condoned the use of waterboarding and they need to stop the witch hunt now and accept their responsibility in this including President Obama who was a senator at the time. There should be nothing else done. The past is the past and we learn from it.

Posted by: afbrat59 | Apr 23, 2009 11:45:59 AM

GK_1970 | Apr 23, 2009 11:23:43 AM

... "Condi Rice gave the green light for waterboarding. That is awesome. Now I can say the libs are going after her because she's black. Hahahahahaha! This is probably why they are thrown off. They thought it was going to be Cheney!" ...
__________________

The Legal Counsel for the State Dept. under Sec'y Rice wrote an exhaustive Brief (memo) on Secretary Rice's Opinion, on the Bush Administration's direction on Torture. When the memo was requested, it somehow "No longer existed???" (That's per the Legal Counsel, himself!)

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 11:48:35 AM

huh pelosi knew about all along oh and congress was briefed on it constantly going back to 2002.what a surprise cant trust those libs.

Posted by: natale from mass. | Apr 23, 2009 11:51:14 AM

WASHINGTON: The Justice Department memorandums released last week illustrate how difficult it can be to assess claims of effectiveness. One 2005 memorandum, for example, asserts that “enhanced techniques” used on Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

But the memorandum then lists among Abu Zubaydah’s revelations the identification of Mr. Mohammed, and
on Mr. Mohammed, the record is murky. The memorandum says that “before the C.I.A. used enhanced techniques,” Mr. Mohammed “resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, ‘Simply noting, ‘Soon, you will know.’ ”

The same memorandum reveals in a footnote that Mr. Mohammed, captured on March 1, 2003, was waterboarded 183 times that month. That striking number, which would average out to six waterboardings a day, suggests that interrogators did not try a traditional, rapport-building approach for long before escalating to their most extreme tool.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 12:00:09 PM

"Banana Republic" Senator Bond? What about the RULE OF LAW? Do we prosecute people who BREAK THE LAW? Do we even investigate to see if laws were broken? APPARENTLY NOT, when it is a politician or a government apparatchik.

This whole discussion is disgusting. Evidently McCain, the GOP, and Obama are all under the mistaken impression that the LAW is somehow an "optional" thing. They promulgate the idea that a POLITICIAN can decide whether LAW ENFORCEMENT can or should investigate potential lawbreaking. You know what we call that? DICTATORSHIP- the rule of MEN, not the rule of LAW.

This is a country of LAWS. They are not "OPTIONAL LAWS". There is no Political or "men of power" EXCEPTION to LAW in America.

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson

The neo-GOP and Obama should remove themselves from the discussion and let the Department of Justice do its JOB.

Posted by: Warren | Apr 23, 2009 12:02:10 PM

SILKY i would love to say it to your face. Honestly i would. Anyone who cares more about terrorists than our country is a fool. If even one innocent life is saved by waterboarding a scum bag who has no concept of human life i am all for it. You sit here on your high horse complaining while Bush did everything he could to save lives. you protect the people who behead Americans, you protect those who hide behind women and children in mosques, you protect those who kill innocent people in buildings and you protect them by advocating our tactics. You libs are dangerous to this country. And for what? so some terrorist doesn't get a face wash? Listen to yourselves. How pathetic. Don't think for one minute some terrorist would slit someones throat for no reason at all. I would say it to you anytime.

Posted by: chad | Apr 23, 2009 12:06:35 PM

"huh pelosi knew about all along oh and congress was briefed on it constantly going back to 2002.what a surprise cant trust those libs."

Yeah, only "libs." Posts like yours are the most nauseating thing on the internet. More nauseating than new country fans.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 12:06:52 PM

conservative idiots -
torture is against the Constitution.

You know, that "thing" that you follow in the U.S., if you believe in the U.S.

You so called Patriots are so messed up.

Posted by: Arthur | Apr 23, 2009 12:07:57 PM

afbrat59 | Apr 23, 2009 11:45:59 AM

..."There should be nothing else done. The past is the past and we learn from it."...
__________________

What you have laid out is accurate and no one can dispute those facts. The real difference is, today Government CANNOT control the communication of The Facts (News.) And The Facts are disseminated almost Immediately, Worldwide. Before the development of Electronic Communications, Government's controlled the knowledge of their citizenry, that CANNOT be accomplished today. As recently as the early 70's our Government could Control the information received by the populace. NOT today, or ever into the future. We have got to be who we say we are, or the World shall become a Jungle!!!

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 12:08:41 PM

"SILKY i would love to say it to your face. Honestly i would. Anyone who cares more about terrorists than our country is a fool."

Anybody who interprets what I'm saying as pointing to this conclusion needs to go back to elemetary school.

As I indicated yesterday, I was very much personally effected by 9/11. The terrorists killed three friends of mine, whom I watched and heard die from my roof. So how about knocking it off with the reatardation-level reading comprehension skills.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 12:09:02 PM

"You sit here on your high horse complaining while Bush did everything he could to save lives."

LOL! Yeah, he did everything he could alright. He sent 4,000+ U.S. soldiers and 100,000+ innocent Iraqi civilians to their death "to save lives." Good thing he took out the guy responsible! Oh wait...he didn't? Well done, Mr. President. Well done.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 12:11:09 PM

"you protect those who kill innocent people in buildings and you protect them by advocating our tactics. You libs are dangerous to this country." _________________

I don't know any 'lib' who protected
Timothy McVey or any other domestic/international terrorist activity.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 12:16:36 PM

"Don't think for one minute some terrorist would slit someones throat for no reason at all. I would say it to you anytime."
Posted by: chad | Apr 23, 2009 12:06:35 PM
__________________

Thank you for acknowledging that domestic terrorists and nativists are extremely dangerous too.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 12:21:05 PM

Arthur

Waterboarding is not torture, no matter how many times you say it is. Also, judging by the looks of many of the scumbags who were interrogated, they were in desperate need of a good scrubbing.

The terrorists think that an X-rated afterlife is waiting for them if they kill infidels/Americans and will use whatever means necessary to accomplish their goals.

God help America if people like you succeed in crippling America against these animals.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 12:23:25 PM

If the Bush administration is to be crucified for torture, are the members of Congress who were kept briefed on the interrogation techniques also to be crucified?

Congress could have put a stop to it but I expect Congress will give itself a pass, as usual.

Posted by: MizFW | Apr 23, 2009 12:24:07 PM

Dave,

"Stop your ranting and listen to reason. Waterboarding is not torture, no matter how many liberal idiots say that it is."

Waterboarding IS torture. It was defined as torture long ago and has been used by the Spanish Inquisition through Vietnam, but not by the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

"It's a clear-cut case: Waterboarding can without any reservation be labeled as torture. It fulfils all of the four central criteria that according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) defines an act of torture."

Posted by: Joseph | Apr 23, 2009 12:27:50 PM

"God help America if people like you succeed in crippling America against these animals."

God help America if people like you are afforded driver's licenses.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 12:30:05 PM

This is just one of the issues that demand accountability from the eight year period I like to call "The Dark Years". The precedent must be set now. Unless people are held accountable for their unlawful, and illegal, actions during this time, we run the risk of some future president believing he, or she, is above the law as well. The next time it may be far worse, if you can even imagine that. The imperial presidency was closer to a dictatorship than we think. It could have easily been Americans jailed without cause and tortured, simply because someone decided they were an "enemy of the state". Actually, this was approved by the White House, but was never used. Kinda scary, isn't it?

Posted by: DaveM | Apr 23, 2009 12:38:56 PM

To all you Cheney haters just remember one thing you don't rise to power like he did in 3 admins and in the private sector without being very smart. (I personally don't care for him) But Obama opened the door for the American people to find out what attcks the Bush admin stopped and now if something happens it will fall solely on Obama's shoulders because he isn't willing to do whatever it takes to protect American lives. After all now the CIA will just have France, Germany, England, Spain, Portugal, Saudi, Jordan, Egypt (our close allies under the Bush admin) pick up the terrorists and torture them since those countries all will do whatever it takes to protect their citizens! Remember lib's that all the terrorists were taking flight classes under Clinton and the FBI and CIA were handcuffed from communication by none other than Eric Holder so blame Bush all you want but Clinton and Holder have just as much blame. We were attacked multiple times under the Clinton admin and he did nothing and the same thing will happen with Obama. Obama is weak and has no experience and every day it shows more and more.

Posted by: mike | Apr 23, 2009 12:39:36 PM

Silky

The terrorists LOVE people like you. I used to think that you were a paid blogger for barry's administration, but now I wonder if you not a member of the American Taliban?

You don't happen to have a long beard and 7 virgins waiting for you, do you?

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 12:40:33 PM

oh poor silky getting a little offended poor poor silky dont cry .

Posted by: natale from mass. | Apr 23, 2009 12:42:37 PM

In Abraham Lincoln's administration during the Civil War, there were torture tactics used against Confederate soldiers who would not give up information. Most were hanged for a period of time till they talked. If they didn't talk the hanging was carried out in full detail. Federal prison's were horrible places to be, and I don't want to hear about Andersonville in Georgia that the Confederates used. Federal blockade and Sherman ruled out any extra food for these prisoners. Edwin Stanton was the most hyenous person to walk this earth.

Posted by: Steve | Apr 23, 2009 12:45:32 PM

IN addition, Terrorists don't fall under the Geneva convention. they don't meet the criteria. Sorry libs, you lose this one and your true colors are showing and so is your anti American setiment

Posted by: chad | Apr 23, 2009 12:47:28 PM

If you lower yourself to the actions of your enemy, then you are no better than your enemy. You become the enemy. I have always felt pride in the fact that America was a leader in fairness, morality and legality when compared to other nations in the world. In other words, we followed the rules making us superior to those other nations and that they looked to us for moral guidance in many aspects. The Bush years ripped all of that away. Torture of our enemies is the most visible example of our fall from grace. Other issues have yet to be addressed. America needs to know that those responsible are held accountable. If they broke the law, then they need to go to jail. Pretty simple.

Posted by: DaveM | Apr 23, 2009 12:49:55 PM

Heads will roll.... Heads will roll....

Posted by: Levi | Apr 23, 2009 12:51:46 PM

"The terrorists think that an X-rated afterlife is waiting for them..."
__________________

I bet there's alot of guys wishing that here in the states too.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 12:53:36 PM

make sure to include democratic leadership in any trial over torture.

and as we try other americans for their good faith, but political opposite view, at interrogating terrorists, saint barack continues to release those terrorists from prison!

buh-bye america!

Posted by: gaysforpalin, west hollywood, ca | Apr 23, 2009 12:53:57 PM

I am over 50 years old. Since I was a small child my parents taught me that America stands for goodness. America is the one country on earth that is not like China, Russia and North Korea and the many other countries that imprison people without a trial and torture them. We turned our CIA into Cheney’s private Gestapo army. I never in my lifetime would believe we would impression people without a trial. We would torture. In the movies that was always the bad guys. Our solders went to jail as Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld lied and told the world the procedures the solders used were not authorized and these solders were “a few bad apples”. Definitions are a lawyer’s game. Remember “it depends on what your definition of “is” is” during the Clinton hearings? Why is it now ok for a Republican president and his team of misfits to rely on changing definitions of a prisoner of war to an “enemy combatant” just so they can say the rules of war and the Geneva convention don’t apply? Clinton cheated on his wife and lied about it. Bush lied about the reason he was going to war in Iraq, he lied about approving torture and has his underlings working the press to distort the facts to the American people. How can the Republicans defend Bush when he is using the exact same lawyerly tactic for an even more evil purpose? A purpose that takes America off the “high road” in values and in world standing and degrades it to the level of some of the most notorious regimes.

Posted by: dan | Apr 23, 2009 12:55:20 PM

Chad- true patriots don't just look to protect our country from external enemies. A patriot looks inward, where morality and legality have decayed, like a cancer, and threaten us from the inside out. Torture is an example. I couldn't care less who we were torturing, it's the fact that those actions were illegal and violated our moral code. Had these actions stood, say, if a Republican had won the election; it wouldn't have stopped with terrorists. American citizens would be next. That policy had been approved by the Bush administration. Pizz someone off, you get the label of enemy combatant and you disappear forever, no lawyer, no calls home, just gone.

Posted by: DaveM | Apr 23, 2009 12:58:29 PM

davem and america has no assassin either wake up.

Posted by: natale from mass. | Apr 23, 2009 12:59:17 PM

Thank you, Dan. Well said...

Posted by: DaveM | Apr 23, 2009 12:59:31 PM

Natale from mass. - you are incomprehensible. If you wish to make a point, you must make sense.

Posted by: DaveM | Apr 23, 2009 1:00:53 PM

"What should make you sick is that obama has made the possibility of someone nuking a city more feasible. That should make everyone sick."

This is the crux of the matter, isn't it? This is the salient point.

The argument is: that it doesn't matter if waterboarding is torture or not, if we do not torture prisoners, we will not get information leading to uncovering plots to nuke us.

The truth is, interrogation experts say this kind of torture more often leads to false confessions, and false information.

The ticket agent who let Mohammud Atta through to his connecting flight knew in his gut something was wrong, but didn't have the authority to stop Atta. Now, he does. Changes in policy like that, increased security measures, more arabic speakers hired and trained for intelligence, have more practical implications for preventing the nuke scenerio than this fight over waterboarding prisoners. That's a fact.

Posted by: Amy in Maine | Apr 23, 2009 1:01:22 PM

"To all you Cheney haters just remember one thing you don't rise to power like he did in 3 admins and in the private sector without being very smart."
__________________

agreed, he's crafty, the 'ole dog.
and power hungry.
[so is Charles Manson, for that matter]

by the looks of things, he's having a bit of a challenge letting that over-authority 'go'.

I believe it's the issues of over-stepping his cabinet role, his involvement with this torture issue and other questionable Constitution violations, his continued politicising on FOX news that makes people wonder about his intent,integrity and accountability.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 1:04:41 PM

The "Saving Grace" we have -vs- the "Radical right-edge" is WE (Liberal, Moderate and Independent "Thinkers") OUTNUMBER THEM, about 70/30!!! Don't allow them to Forget That!

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 1:07:52 PM

I fine it interesting that we keep talking about waterboardnig as if it was the worse thing done by our country. You need to remember Abu Ghraib and the prisoners that died or were crippled there. It was a result of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld changing the rules that this group and many others thought they would be heros for breaking these prisoners. It is also interesting that only about 15 soldiers and one superior were punished. The big shots that created this problem were well protected from incrimination. These types of activities hurt us severely in the war because it enraged others to fight against us. If the most powerful nation in the work can't fight a war without these tactics, then how can we put others on trial for war crimes when they have far less power than we have.

Posted by: MikeMo1947 | Apr 23, 2009 1:09:54 PM

Too bad Obama doesn't keep word. Isn't it like he's bowing to the far left?

Posted by: Mihann | Apr 23, 2009 1:10:58 PM

im incomprehensible ooh davem those big words think m?ron think

Posted by: natale from mass. | Apr 23, 2009 1:11:36 PM

Dan

People like you who compare Cheney to the gestapo really show your true ignorance and really hurt America overall. The gestapa cut fingers off, murdered entire families, beat people on the soles of their feet, gouged eyes, starved and mutilated countless #'s of people.

America on the other hand, dunks underwater those we believe to have info that can save American lives, and you compare that to the gestapo?
That is very sad.

But I know people like you who make comparisons of our CIA to the gestapo, only make the terrorists' cause of complete annihilation for all infidels that much easier.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 1:12:03 PM

It is surprising to see the democrats getting on the wagon of morality.What morality may I ask ? Waterboarding 6 criminlas is a crime but killing late term babies is ok..hmm. Having gays deciding going crazy for marriage is ok..hmm. professing to be a Christian is being bias and ignorant.hmmm. Yeap..I love the hypocracy of the liberal democrats..Pharisees nothing less

Posted by: Frank | Apr 23, 2009 1:14:01 PM

It's kind of odd that the libs doesn't say anything about our enemy violations of human rights, Geneva convention, torture, rule of war, etc.
Professional courtesy?

Posted by: ReallyMeanIt | Apr 23, 2009 1:19:31 PM

natalie,

Too bad you wont take your enthusiasm for wanting crucify Chaney and also apply it to your own state Rep Barney Frank.

I'd love to see just as deep an investigation of Barney Frank's activites of the past years!


Will you support that as well? since you all seem so in favor of opening up investigations into past acts.

Posted by: Mike_C | Apr 23, 2009 1:22:00 PM

Thank God we have not beheaded anyone on TV, would that be called torture or put them out of their misery????? What about blowing yourself up in the middle of a crowded market with women and children, is that called torture or expressing yourself???????? How about putting bamboo sticks under your fingernails, is that called torture?????
Just wondering.

Posted by: Lizzie | Apr 23, 2009 1:24:56 PM

Don't our congressional leaders have things more worthy of their time than witch hunting? The past is gone and done. If this administration wants to redefine interrogation guidelines it should do so. There's nothing to be gained, everything to be lost by attempting to prosecute the previous administration. Don't forget, some day this administration will become the former administration. What goes around comes around.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | Apr 23, 2009 1:28:38 PM

you bet mike_c i cant stand barney frank lets put it this way i didnt vote for him and never will look what the dems have done to my state its not pretty

Posted by: natale from mass. | Apr 23, 2009 1:30:29 PM

How about it natalie?

An investigation into Barney Frank, now that is something I would pay to see!

Remember when barney hired a gay prositiute to live with him, and when barney was away at work FORCING banks to make bad loans to people who could never pay them back, the prosititute would have other clients over to barney's house. Good ol barney was running a gay prostitution ring out of his house! (this is all easiliy verifiable). Thank you mainstream media for virtually ignoring the story.

And do you remember the gay affair good ol barney had with the head of fannie mae at the same time he was head of the house financial services committee in congress?

He screamed all day long in DC about the need for more loans for poor people from fannie while at the same time having an affair with the head of fannie.

Can anyone say conflict of interest?

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 1:31:51 PM

"It's kind of odd that the libs doesn't say anything about our enemy violations of human rights, Geneva convention, torture, rule of war, etc."


You're kidding aren't you? Liberals were pushing for a boycott of South Africa back when Cheney said aparteid was none of our business. Liberals are derided for lobbying for help in Darfur. It was a Democratic President who gave the order to kill three pirates holding an American hostage. Suck on it.

Posted by: Amy in Maine | Apr 23, 2009 1:37:46 PM

Reading your posts are torture Lizzie.

Posted by: Amy in Maine | Apr 23, 2009 1:39:08 PM

dan | Apr 23, 2009 12:55:20 PM

"dan", I'm old enough to be your "Pop." Nothing has been said on this subject, that tops your eloquence and being "on point!"

It's Well Worth Repeating, you said; "I am over 50 years old. Since I was a small child my parents taught me that America stands for goodness. America is the one country on earth that is not like China, Russia and North Korea and the many other countries that imprison people without a trial and torture them. We turned our CIA into Cheney’s private Gestapo army. I never in my lifetime would believe we would imprison people without a trial. We would torture. In the movies that was always the bad guys. Our solders went to jail as Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld lied and told the world the procedures the solders used were not authorized and these solders were “a few bad apples”. Definitions are a lawyer’s game. Remember “it depends on what your definition of “is” is” during the Clinton hearings? Why is it now ok for a Republican president and his team of misfits to rely on changing definitions of a prisoner of war to an “enemy combatant” just so they can say the rules of war and the Geneva convention don’t apply? Clinton cheated on his wife and lied about it. Bush lied about the reason he was going to war in Iraq, he lied about approving torture and has his underlings working the press to distort the facts to the American people. How can the Republicans defend Bush when he is using the exact same lawyerly tactic for an even more evil purpose? A purpose that takes America off the “high road” in values and in world standing and degrades it to the level of some of the most notorious regimes." / This was Posted by: "dan"

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 1:41:33 PM

Ever been to Japan? I have. Those guys don't play around. Their punishments is harsh, but guess what...They have very little crime. Liquor and beer vending machines on every corner. No one robs them, the kids don't try to get into them (they know better), everyone rides bicycles and you can leave them UNCHAINED for weeks in an area at the train stations and no one steals them. I bet they do more than waterboard, but there is no crime there.

Posted by: Carol in Alabama | Apr 23, 2009 1:46:30 PM

"im incomprehensible ooh davem those big words think m?ron think"
________________

cocaine?

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 1:48:16 PM

Dave | Apr 23, 2009 1:31:51 PM

You ask; ... "Can anyone say conflict of interest?" ...
_______________

Please....... Can anyone say "a frivolous and impotent DISTRACTION??? Run for cover "Dave", run for cover!!!

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 1:48:50 PM

Ever been to Japan? I have. Those guys don't play around... I bet they do more than waterboard, but there is no crime there.
Posted by: Carol in Alabama | Apr 23, 2009 1:46:30 PM
__________________

translation:
the whole country [especially people who don't look like us] is bad.
and we're good.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 1:52:29 PM

Seems to me like the Liberal activists are the ones sucking on it. Every member of Congress was briefed on the activities of waterboarding including the Democrats. Start voting responsibly and not reacting. Stop voting for corrupt conservatives and Liberal activists. Vote for responsible conservatives or Democrats who oppose all illegal activity.

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 1:54:53 PM

Carol in Alabama|Apr 23, 2009 1:46:30 PM

You say; ... "I bet they do more than waterboard, but there is no crime there." ...
_________________

But, you DON'T KNOW... do you? Different Culture, different history! And we DON'T attempt to pattern ourselves after others. That's NOT what's expected from America!!!

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 1:57:06 PM

Bush, Cheney, White House, and the GOP Congress told us the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were bad apples and were never ordered to torture prisoners.

Now, we know this was a blatant lie.

American soldiers were sent to prison for following orders from the White House.

There is no doubt in my mind that members of Congress were well aware of this torture happening from 2002-2005.

Now, the question is, will the Democrats step up to the plate and expose Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and those in Congress who knew the White House deserted American soldiers?

Posted by: Dan | Apr 23, 2009 2:05:20 PM

Accountability! How come the ear marks in the Omnibus Bill were considered old business, but this isn't.

Posted by: shiggybop | Apr 23, 2009 2:06:33 PM

"It's kind of odd that the libs doesn't say anything about our enemy violations of human rights, Geneva convention, torture, rule of war, etc."


You're kidding aren't you? Liberals were pushing for a boycott of South Africa back when Cheney said aparteid was none of our business. Liberals are derided for lobbying for help in Darfur. It was a Democratic President who gave the order to kill three pirates holding an American hostage. Suck on it.
Posted by: Amy in Maine
------------------------------
What's South Africa and Darfur got to do with the toruring issue in the Iraq war? I don't recall our military being over there.......
As for Cheney comments, shouldn't you libs agreed with him since all you cried about was us sticking our nose into other people business? So which is it?
And I don't remembered anyone was persecuted for helping the people of Darfur.
Obama didn't give the order to kill the pirates. It was the on scene commander who makes the call. Nice try though, barrack could used some embelishment since he's pathetic so far.
So suck on it until your senses comes around.

Posted by: ReallyMeanIt | Apr 23, 2009 2:07:00 PM

One side says we need it to get vital information. The other side says under no circumstances. The classic conundrum is the ticking time bomb scenario and the degradation of our values as a free society.

Most can agree that at certain times non harsh interrogations are not capable of getting information when it is needed. By the same token, harsh interrogations should not be the norm in a democratic society.

The decision should not be left to the interrogator. There is too much danger that it will become the norm. We need two things: a) a baseline when harsh methods are justified and b) an application to an independent tribunal much as you make application to obtain a search warrant. The only question is what is the level of proof needed. That is my view is what the debate should be about.

Posted by: cookslaw | Apr 23, 2009 2:16:54 PM

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Silky, Amy, Gus & cowgirl are good

Dave is bad

Dave is ugly

Posted by: Lee Van Cleef | Apr 23, 2009 2:17:24 PM

Dan
I don't think george bush told the soldiers at Abu Grab Your Ankles to strip the prisoners naked and mess with them. Nice try though.

Regardless, the liberals lept at the opportunity to spread anti-American and anti-war sentiment once the pictures were released.

Although the pictures were pretty funny, I don't condone the behavior of those soldiers there. But if I was fighing in a war and had someone in custody who was just firing rockets at my head the day before, I might have to do a little hazing too.

Nothing harmful to the slimebags, but humiliating perhaps.
Oh no, does that mean I am just like the gestapo too?

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 2:17:59 PM

Why are you still arguing about this?
bobj72, You're living in a Hollywood induced fantasy land. Do you think American officers in the War for Independence did not use physical violence to get information? This is war! If you don't want to fight the enemy, go live on the moon or in Sweden.
Terrorists do not stop killing because people are kind and compassionate.

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 2:20:55 PM

Lee Van Cleef

Terrorists LOVE liberals lobbying for them here in the USA.

But becareful Mr. Cleef, if you fall into their hands you will probably come out headless just like I would. All of your ridiculous pro-terrorist arguments won't save you.

Afterall, we are both infidels who don't believe in making our women wear clown costumes. They would love to have both our heads on a platter.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 2:22:03 PM

Water boarding torture? Let's ask Daniel Pearl what he thinks?? Oh, I'm sorry savages affiliated with Al Qaeda beheaded this poor man. Let's ask the Iraqi civilians who are blown up while shopping at a market? If an American soldier killed a member of Al Qaeda by beheading there are those within our government that would want that soldier to be prosecuted. When innocent civilians are knowingly targeted and killed by American soldiers they are prosecuted. Point is these savages use techniques that are far more brutal than the CIA water boarding, sleep deprivation, use of dogs etc (all with no permanent harm done to the one being interrogated, i.e. death). America is getting soft.

Posted by: NoSpin1600 | Apr 23, 2009 2:28:33 PM

"Terrorists do not stop killing because people are kind and compassionate."

They do if policies get out of their way, though.

Can somebody explain to me why the Israelites have to be where they are? I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely asking.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 2:33:09 PM

And if anybody knows how to think like a terrorist, it's Dave.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 2:33:49 PM

Lee van Cleef

Why can't you use your real name? What are you hiding from? Liberalism is in charge of the KGB now, or are you just lost in the media maze of deception like most of your "friends?"

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 2:34:48 PM

Many in Congress privately want this scandal to go away — including Democrats. They have been trying to confine the scandal to the issue of the destruction of the tapes and not torture. While the Bush Administration is clearly most responsible, they know that both Democrats and Republicans in Congress share some responsibility due to their failure to act and their concealment of their own knowledge from voters. Indeed, the danger of democratic leaders being implicated in the scandal has already been made clear by the White House. Almost immediately after the disclosure of the torture program and the destruction of the tapes, the Administration pointedly noted that Democrats were aware of both the program and the plan. If these officials are under serious threat of prosecution, they are more likely to give more details of congressional collusion. Immunity would be an easy way to make prosecution more difficult.
http://jonathanturley.org
Careful Obama Administration this is not about playing politics it has more far reaching consequences in the world than blaming previous administrations. Quit playing to the ULTRA LEFT. Until Bush and Cheney are dead they will be looking for a reason to have them locked up. BOTH SIDES OF CONGRESS ARE EQUALLY GUILTY FOR THE HAZING OF JIHADIST COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS. IF YOU WANT TO PROSECUTE MOVE TO CONGRESS RIGHT AFTER YOUR POLITICAL WITCH HUNT. START WITH PELOSI and then we can be fair about it and lock up every democrat and rebuplican that knew about it. WOULD THAT MAKE YOU PARTISAN HACKS HAPPY!

Posted by: Don't waterboard me Bro! | Apr 23, 2009 2:35:52 PM

This is war! If you don't want to fight the enemy, go live on the moon or in Sweden.
-------------------

how about Denmark? I heard all the girls are blonde there.

Posted by: 'Portant stuff | Apr 23, 2009 2:37:14 PM

MikeMo1947; Interesing that you think our enemies were inspired to fight by our torture techniques. Has it occurred to anyone that if we weren't making a big issue of the matter the world wouldn't know what went on in those determent camps. After all those prisoners were isolated from any public exposure. Once again it's the liberals and the press that are throwing egg on the face of the United States. Our secrets could just as easily have remained our secrets. Trying to make themselves look better at the expense of everyone else.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | Apr 23, 2009 2:37:51 PM

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Silky, Amy, Gus & cowgirl are good

Dave is bad

Dave is ugly

Posted by: Lee Van Cleef | Apr 23, 2009 2:17:24 PM

LEE VAN CLEEF IS IMMATURE

Posted by: Don't waterboard me Bro! | Apr 23, 2009 2:38:54 PM

Don't waterboard me Bro! -- NICE

Posted by: NoSpin1600 | Apr 23, 2009 2:39:31 PM

Lee van Cleef

"Why can't you use your real name? What are you hiding from? Liberalism is in charge of the KGB now, or are you just lost in the media maze of deception like most of your "friends?"
Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 2:34:48 PM
____________

I'm just a bad A S S in a spaghetti western. cut me some slack.

Posted by: Lee Van Cleef | Apr 23, 2009 2:41:23 PM

So we should sink to their level? That is wy I oppose torture. It would make us no better than the terrorists and in many ways affirm their position that we are the EVIL USA. In no previous war did the US torture, even after Bataan, etc. We should not do it now. Prosecute, no I do not believe that is right - they followed orders as anyone in the military must. However, it cannot be repeated..

Posted by: Kay | Apr 23, 2009 2:42:36 PM

John | Apr 23, 2009 2:20:55 PM

..."Terrorists do not stop killing because people are kind and compassionate." ...
________________

You fiery-eyed radicals will stoop to any length to justify your wrong-headed, immoral, arrogant, imperialistic and superior-to-thou strategies.


Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 2:43:08 PM

Silky(if that is your real name)
Because that is where they are. Why do you have to be where you are? Because that is where you want to be. Why do the Palestinians have to be where they are? Because that's where they want to be.
What policies need to be "out of the way?" And do you mean our policies or their policies?

Posted by: john | Apr 23, 2009 2:43:28 PM

Dont waterboard me bro! is hilarious

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 2:43:36 PM

Silky; If your asking why they're physically where they are, in the Holy Land, thank the British who gave the land to them when they found Israel not their economic or militarily strategic benefit any longer. If you're asking why Israel is ready to wipe Iran off the face of the earth, the Israelis understand that when enemies say they want to annihilate Israel they mean it. It's just a matter of taking care of business before the other nation's agenda comes to fruition.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | Apr 23, 2009 2:46:14 PM

There seems to be only two sides to the torture debate:
1. I don't believe we should use torture and I believe waterboarding, wall slamming, stress positions, sleep deprivation, nudity and a cold room is NOT torture.

2. I don't believe we should use torture and I believe waterboarding, all slamming, stress positions, sleep deprivation, nudity and a cold room IS torture.

The subject of the article was whether Congress should be seeking to second-guess what was done in the hysteria following 9/11 when another attack was believed to be...and indeed turned out to be...imminent.

I say no, Congress should at least attempt to give the appearance of governing.

Sadly, politicians always rush in when it's leaders who are needed.

Posted by: MizFW | Apr 23, 2009 2:46:49 PM

bobj72
What was the last thing you did that stopped a terrorist attack?

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 2:47:41 PM

Silky
What do you mean when you ask why the israelites have to be where they are?

They are hated simply because they are.

Sadly, they are also fighting a losing battle because their religion does not call for violent beheadings against those they don't agree with as islam does.
And toss in a liberal media who seems to be more sympathetic to the terrorist whackos then it is to Israel's survival, it appears to be getting worse all of the time.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 2:49:02 PM

For heaven's sake, torture doesn't work and even if it did, since when does my country claim that the end justifies the means? I served in the U.S. Army back in the 70s and we were taught that following an illegal order is as culpable as giving one. I have seen the museum at Tuol Sleng with torture implements. I don't agree with John McCain on very much but he admirably stated that this is a defining issue -- WE don't do that. Shame on the lawyers who speciously argued for torture and shame on the leaders (in the Administration AND Congress) who allowed it to proceed. My mother told me that two wrongs don't make a right and by God she was right! It's just as simple as that.

Posted by: Jim S. | Apr 23, 2009 2:52:42 PM

I'm serious here bobj72. I'm not trying to make you mad. If you have something that works, let us know. I'm sure we'll use it. Don't just demogogue give a solution. The only terrorist attack on this country that has been successful in the last eight years was in the 2008 election. So far it has been bloodless as far as I know.

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 2:54:47 PM

"Silky(if that is your real name)
Because that is where they are. Why do you have to be where you are?"
---------------------------

I once knew a Silky St. Smooth. that was his real name.

Posted by: I.M. Trugh | Apr 23, 2009 2:57:02 PM

Kay; You don't have to sink to any level other than whatever level is your personal comfort zone. Our military personnel were the ones doing the torturing. They were just following orders. They had no choice but to follow orders without question or hesitation. That's what being a good soldier amounts to. They're not considered to be people. They are government property. If you want to be in charge, run for office. Then you can decide what's best for America. Otherwise, let those the majority elected do their thing and let them move on into retirement when they're through serving their country.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | Apr 23, 2009 2:58:35 PM

"Silky(if that is your real name)
Because that is where they are. Why do you have to be where you are? Because that is where you want to be. Why do the Palestinians have to be where they are? Because that's where they want to be."

Who cares what my real name is? And actually, they're there because we put them there. And the Palestinians are where they are because they were driven out when we (and others) put them there. This my understanding.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 2:58:47 PM

"I once knew a Silky St. Smooth. that was his real name."

Me, I'm Silky Johnson...most beautiful hater of them all. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go put water in Dave's mama's dish.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 2:59:50 PM

How do we propose to depoliticize this investigation?

At this point the nation is too polarized to be able to succeed in doing this. We are at huis clos on this topic in America today. This is a serious problem. Is there anyway to improve the situation, or is it bound to deteriorate farther?
— John, Massachusetts

Posted by: John, Massachusetts | Apr 23, 2009 3:00:35 PM

"Silky
What do you mean when you ask why the israelites have to be where they are?"

I'm not sure the question can be any more straight forward.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 3:00:41 PM

Posted by: MizFW | Apr 23, 2009 2:46:49 PM
Thanks for being level headed. Wether we agree if it is torture or hazing. Does not matter right, middle, and left will never agree on anythind in todays political climate. But prosecuting anyone involved with what happened following 9/11 is wrong and will set a precedent that could adversly effect our country for years to come.

Posted by: Don't waterboard me Bro! | Apr 23, 2009 3:00:48 PM

"They're not considered to be people. They are government property."

I believe it's called an asset.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 3:01:59 PM

This story is all about justice. People like Lyndie England ("a few bad apples") were imprisoned for following the very guidelines that Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice and Bush fully approved. General Karpinski was disgraced for following those guidelines. It was those low ranking individuals who took the fall.

Posted by: GPS | Apr 23, 2009 3:05:15 PM

Well, we know that despite all the torture and harsh techniques and secret prisons around the world, we have not found Mr. Bin Laden.

Didn't he have something to do with 9-11?

Posted by: Mark in Minnesota | Apr 23, 2009 3:06:03 PM

The intelligent members of the Republican party must be thrilled that Dave is out here speaking for them so articulately and elloquently.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 3:06:27 PM

so lets prosecute americans for trying to keep of free from another devastating terrorist attack,and lets give captured foriegn enemy combatants u.s. constitutional rights?the most brilliant president weve ever had???

Posted by: 210hxc | Apr 23, 2009 3:07:02 PM

I may be going out on a limb here, which many of you will be happy to cut off, I'm sure... Some of you keep throwing out the number of military casualities in Iraq as proof that Bush was the worst President in history. Wasn't Johnson in the White House when Vietnam became a full-fledged battleground? Weren't the circumstances of how we got into that situation misrepresented, luring Congress into passing the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and duping the American people? During Johnson's tenure (1963-1969), 30,000 American troops lost their lives. And there had been no attack on innocent American civilians - we were protecting U.S. national security interests against the spread of communism.

Every president does what he thinks is necessary to protect America. We trust our leaders to know the best way to do that. I personally believe that if Clinton had responded differently after the Trade Towers attack in 1993, we wouldn't have a 9/11 to never forget or a "War on Terror." Revisionist rhetoric is not going to alter the past... Hopefully we learn and move forward. The change in the Oval Office demonstrated that Democrats were mad as hell and not going to take it anymore. Got it. Your candidate won and has said "no more" so you won. Why can't you be happy with that and let it go? And shame on Pelosi, Feinstein and others who are pushing their own agendas. Their President and party leader has said to move on, and they should respect him and do just that.

Posted by: older&wiser; | Apr 23, 2009 3:07:22 PM

the torture was aimed at procuring a false confession tieing Al Queda to Saddam Hussein to justify the war in Iraq. This piece of the puzzle fits and now it makes perfect sense to me... why else would you need to waterboard someone dozens of times to get the truth? I now realize the true extent of what we had to fear from the Bush administration.

Posted by: Kim D. | Apr 23, 2009 3:07:57 PM

Silk
Have you never read a history book?

The Jews, also known as Israelites, have been there for thousands of years. They just happened to pick an unlucky spot to settle down in because their neighbors all turned out to be islamic crazies (a whacky religion founded only in the last 1500 years by mohammed the pedophile and warmonger).

Would you advise the Jews fly the white flag of surrender and drive themselves into the ocean as iran, palestine, and lebanon have suggested?

With all of these liberals taking over pushing their appeasement policies, that could become a reality.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 3:12:36 PM

Jim S.
I am not rationalizing torture, and no one on this blog is advocating it for personal use. We are rationalizing warfare, or trying to. No one should be trying to justify or impugn those who took steps they deemed necessary to protect those they were sworn to protect. These people are terrorists, they are not fighting conventional warfare. Again, I ask what have you done to successfully stop a terrorist attack?

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 3:13:17 PM

"The intelligent members of the Republican party must be thrilled that Dave is out here speaking for them so articulately and elloquently.
Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 3:06:27 PM
____________

There are not too many intelligent people admitting they are connected to the GOP these days.

However, I am one who admires the GOP voice 'driven' through Dave. [Like oil through a goose]

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 3:13:26 PM

Silky; Well you're wrong this time. If a soldier gets a sunburn while on his own time and is unable to perform his duties because of the sunburn, he is charged with misappropriation of government property, not misappropriation of a government asset.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | Apr 23, 2009 3:16:08 PM

"Would you advise the Jews fly the white flag of surrender and drive themselves into the ocean as iran, palestine, and lebanon have suggested?"
_________________

No, I would support a two party nation.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 3:16:19 PM

The Hebrew Bible is mainly concerned with the Israelites. According to it, the Land of Israel was promised to them by God. Jerusalem was their capital and the site of the temple at the center of their faith.

The Israelites became a major political power with the United Monarchy of Kings Saul, David and Solomon, from c. 1025 BCE[citation needed]. Zedekiah, king of Judah (597-586 BCE), is considered the last king from the house of David.

The Israelites should not be confused with Israelis, the contemporary inhabitants of Israel.
It should be noted that these three words, Israelites, Hebrews and Jews, are historically related and often used (incorrectly) as synonyms. "Israelites" and "Hebrews" are occasionally used in English as synonyms for Jews.

Posted by: Don't waterboard me Bro! | Apr 23, 2009 3:19:32 PM

Isn't it a pity war is so ugly and inconvenient? Shame it can't be wrapped up in an attractive package with a nice bow, a thoughtful card and responded to with a thank you note.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | Apr 23, 2009 3:22:16 PM

gus
I could not care less what the republican party thinks of me. I am not a republican, I'm a conservative.

The republican party tried to beat the democrats at their own game by spending spending spending. And everyone knows, the democrats can NOT be outspent.

Regardless, how does it feel to have the terrorists in your corner? As i have said before, they LOVE liberals (up until they cut their heads off).

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 3:29:35 PM

Larry are you a veteran, and if so were in Korea, you certainly show no respect for those, you know Americans that were taken to Russia to be tortured. Maybe your son or daughter are in the Armed Services. You speak of things you know little of. After two wars I know what its like to see lots of dead friends, and others who have fought for our country. These animals killed thousands of civilians who went to work one day and died. They didn't even get the chance to be water boarded or anything else, they got killed. You may be one of the people who blame the victim. We who fight for freedom fight for all and its too bad we can't fight for who we want. Things would certainly be differently wouldn 't they?

Posted by: Russ, 30 yr. marine E-9 | Apr 23, 2009 3:46:14 PM

"Would you advise the Jews fly the white flag of surrender and drive themselves into the ocean as iran, palestine, and lebanon have suggested?"
_________________

No, I would support a two party nation.
__________________

and two nation state.
Dave, your not helping me stay awake.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 3:48:14 PM

Kim D

I love all of these liberal conspiracy theories you people come up with.

So now waterboarding was done to bring about confessions for justifying the iraq war?

I think Central Intelligence Agency might disagree with you. They said after waterboarding al Qaeda leader, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, he revealed information that allowed the U.S. government to stop an upcomg attack on Los Angeles.

Thousands of people were saved as a result of that terrorist nutjob getting a much-needed bath, and you want to complain. Why?

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 3:59:44 PM

"Regardless, how does it feel to have the terrorists in your corner? As i have said before, they LOVE liberals (up until they cut their heads off)."

No, Dave, they love *you*. You're a walking recruiting mechanism.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 4:03:08 PM

"Silky; Well you're wrong this time. If a soldier gets a sunburn while on his own time and is unable to perform his duties because of the sunburn, he is charged with misappropriation of government property, not misappropriation of a government asset."

I leanred that from Ludlum books.

And thank you for the digest synopsis, don't waterboard me bro!

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 4:07:13 PM

"Regardless, how does it feel to have the terrorists in your corner? As i have said before, they LOVE liberals (up until they cut their heads off)."

________________

Dave, you truly speak 'terrorist'.

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 4:19:52 PM

"I could not care less what the republican party thinks of me. I am not a republican, I'm a conservative.
The republican party tried to beat the democrats at their own game by spending spending spending."
________________

The New Testament of Dave

Posted by: gus amaral | Apr 23, 2009 4:22:07 PM

I love reading the posts of those who know without a reason or doubt, what took place during the Bush reign of terror. They know what plots were stopped, how many people were saved and all the intimate details of what went on during this dark period of American History. How do they know all this? Bush and Cheney kept such a tight lid on things, and only now does Cheney seem to be turning into a motor mouth, spewing his diareaha all over the "liberal" airwaves.

Really people, admit it. You do not know any more than the rest of us. You speculate and try to play revisionist history with your postings. There is no proof one way or another of the effectiveness of the torture inflicted on these un-charged prisoners. There is no proof that lives were saved. All we have to go on is the word of Cheney. Rush and Hannity do not know anymore than we do. Karl Rove, a law breaker himself, is not the reliable source for information. Talk radio, Fox news, none of it is a source for answers.

What we do know is that torture was used. We do know that Bush/Cheney lied repeatedly, stating they do not authorize and we do not use torture. This is on top of all of their other lies. So we do have "facts" but nothing concrete and "factual" about the results of all of this torture, so how can so many of you state so passionately what the value was of this torture?

How is it that so many that profess to be Christlike, sign on to the methods of torturing people? Did Jesus torture? Did he advocate "any means neccesary?" The strongest supporters of Bush/Cheney are also the same people who profess to be very religious, advocating against abortion, yet screaming for their guns. They care more about stopping stem cell research than they do in preventing the tools of mass shootings. Abortion is bad, torture is good. The arguments made by these so called christians make me see the true hypocrisy of religion and their followers.

Instead, let's try to be fair. Use interrogation methods that are proven to work. Make sure we have the correct suspects. How many times did Bush claim that we killed the #1 or #2 guy in Al Queida? Everyone must be in charge there. Help your neighbors. Worry more about the schools, your kids, your neighborhood. Let our president work and do what it was that the majority of America voted for. That is what you can do. Your lack of support, your lack of moral standing, your lack of compassion to your neighbor, that is appalling.. Grow up. Broaden your knowledge base. Listen to and be respectful of dissenting points of view. That is what makes you smarter. That is what make us stronger. That is what Americans, real Americans do. Look to our founding fathers and ask, would they condone this behavior? I think not.

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 4:29:25 PM

Gus

If we get hit again, it will because of people like you. Plain and simple.

Flowers and hugs to our enemies has never worked, and yet liberals like you are just as adament in handing them out as neville chamberlin was 70 years ago.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 4:31:34 PM

Dave - If I kidnapped your children and tortured them for months, over and over again, and then released them back to you with no apologies, reparations, nothing, how mad would you be? Would you want to kill me? Would you try by any means possible to get back at me or whatever institution I worked for that allowed me to torture your children? I bet you would. I would. I would mad freaking nuts!! So if we get attacked again, it will be because of Bush/Cheney and their torture program. If we get attacked again it will be because the hatred that was already there toward America, now is intensified because of the fact that we tortured. We have become no better than those countries with their despotic leaders that we invade to protect their civilian population. Saddam tortured. Polpot tortured. And now, we can go on record to say that Bush and Cheney tortured. Get it thru your thick heads people. We sunk to a new low when torture was made acceptable for use. Why is that so flipping hard to understand??

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 4:46:17 PM

John | Apr 23, 2009 2:54:47 PM

You slobber; ... "So far it has been bloodless as far as I know." ...
______________

As usual (for a "fiery eyed radical"); you make an attempt at reasoned seriousness, then it 'clicks in' and you resort to 'the absurd!' Now, through your "slobbering, and tears in your beer", Who are you charging as being "Terrorist" in the 2008 Election?

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 4:48:09 PM

"If we get hit again, it will because of people like you. Plain and simple."

Lol. Yikes. Meds, Dave. Take your meds.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 4:58:45 PM

John

Pouring water on someone's face is not torture. I don't care how many liberals scream that it is. The same liberals screamed that Vietnam was an evil war and after America left prematurely, 2,000,000 south vietnamese were MURDERED by the north in the killing fields.

So why did 9/11 happen if Bush and Cheney's policies made the islamic crazies hate us?

Why were hit in 1993 at the same spot, by the same nutjobs seeking 7 virgins in the afterlife, if Bush and Cheney's policies are to blame?

Why were the train stations hit in spain if Bush is to blame?

Why were the subways hit in London if Bush and Cheney are to blame?

Why were Danish reporters killed after daring to speak out against islam's chokehold on their country if Bush's policies are to blame?


When will you liberals realize that the terrorists hate us simply because we are alive. They need no other reason.

Women are considered equals in the west and people are allowed to choose their religion, or lack thereof.
Islam views that way of life as completely UNACCEPTABLE.

Yes mohammed said that war should not be waged against women and children, but there are a hundred other passages in the koran where he justifies the murder of ANY infidel. Where do you think the whole idea of beheading came from? Mohammed started that tradition.
Mohammed was not a peaceful man, he was a warmonger.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 5:01:01 PM

I still challenge any libby commentor to Define & Articulate the 'PUBLIC SAFETY EXCEPTION'..... Anyone, anyone at all (even an ABC Employee!!).

Posted by: Mr Reality | Apr 23, 2009 5:12:35 PM

Dave, you realize that people like John and I are of no consequence whatsoever to Al Qaeda. People like you make it easier for them to recruit. *You* are the one they love. You are a perfect demonstration of just the type of American they like to highlight. John and I are simply rationally thinking people who look for answers.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 5:14:00 PM

"When will you liberals realize that the terrorists hate us simply because we are alive. They need no other reason."

Holy crap. You are on fire today. No Dave, actually, they hate because of our support for Israel. Well, and that people like you are allowed to live here.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 5:18:15 PM

Silky
You realize, that you are completley wrong in your naive assumptions.

Oh yes, Spain is a huge supporter of israel. That's why they blew up the train station there.

Denmark is also another big supporter of israel, that's why they rioted in the streets there and killed journalists/reporters who were speaking out against the chokehold islam was placing on their country.

And don't forget the London bombings. London has been a huge supporter of israel too, right?

I repeat, the terrorists hate democracy and our very existence. They have been brainwashed into thinking that their way of life is the only acceptable way to live. period.

Posted by: Dave | Apr 23, 2009 5:31:20 PM

Dave,

Very strong points !!

Very well said.

Posted by: Mr Reality | Apr 23, 2009 5:31:58 PM

John, Who are you charging as being "Terrorist" in the 2008 Election?

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 5:42:06 PM

I dont really care about Denmark, Spain and London. I empathize with them, but what happens there is of no matter to me. The issue is America Torturing. If we ran our country like Spain or Denmark, we would be considerably safer than we are now. Less gun violence, safer, stronger borders, slightly better economies, better healthcare, work conditions, etc. But this is not about what happens in other countries.

You are correct. They hate us for no reasons and for every reason. We support Israel, which makes no sense to me. We try to push democracy on other countries, caring little about the effects of our actions. We overthrow governments because we feel we are correct and they are not. They hate us because we are in their faces. If we stopped looking outside our borders, focused on our country alone, I guarantee you that we would be safer. I do not suggest such a myopic action, but it is reality. WE STICK OUR NOSE IN BUSINESS THAT DOES NOT OR SHOULD NOT CONCERN US. And because of that, they hate us.

Using all of the examples, over the years, means nothing. Crap happens. On every presidents watch. So do we blame the Presidents? 9/11 is a no-brainer, because there is proof that Bush was informed. But even so, that plan was in the works for some time. The 1st WTC, the Cole, the Barracks, all of it occurred for one reason - we stick our noses in other countries business.

Torture does not make people like us any more. It will not smooth over relations with our allies. It will not make our country stronger. And like it or not, believe it or not, it will not make us safer. If they want to kill us, they will. As long as we flick their noses, they will want to and try to kill us. Torture one today, but the wrath of these idiots will still be there and the plans will still be executed.

Instead of worrying about what you can't control, about what you do not fully understand, you should do what you can to make the area you reside in a better, safer, stronger place. It is not a liberal idea to want that. It is not socialist to want that. I want my kids to grow up safe and respecting their country and it's government. With Obama, he will make mistakes. He is close to making one now by stating he will not prosecute those that tortured or authorized torture.

I look forward to the day where I can point to the television, as Cheney is led off in handcuffs and say to my kids, "look, that is what happens when you use violence to solve your problems." That is a lesson that will reverberate around the globe. Maybe then those crazy terrorists will see that we Americans do not condone that behavior, that we do hold people accountable. Maybe when we stop meddleing and flicking the noses of those that believe and think different than us, maybe then they will think about their actions. But violence begets violence. We solve nothing by terrorizing these terrorists.

I hope that my family or I never run into some of you posters and your families. Because if you practice what you post and believe, you are some angry MOFO's. Scary!!

Posted by: John | Apr 23, 2009 6:15:27 PM

John, just a summary to minimize confusion: You admire the countries of Spain & Denmark. You object to our support of Israel. You feel if we practiced isolationism we would be safer. We are the Leaders of The Free World, but you feel we should "keep our noses out" of the business of other countries. Torture won't make us safer. Torture or not, the wrath of the terrorist's will prevail. And you're a proponent of prosecuting members of the previous Administration (and anyone else) for authorizing torture. BUT I STILL ASK; "John, Who are you charging as being "Terrorist" in the 2008 Election?"

Posted by: bobj72 | Apr 23, 2009 6:46:29 PM

Are these people really running our Country? I think not! At the present time they are playing the game "KEEP THE PEOPLE CONFUSED WHILE WE LINE OUR POCKETS" and take away everythiong they have. They will never know until they are broke.

Posted by: Don Park | Apr 23, 2009 7:39:41 PM

Dave, you prove my point for me. Those countries allow women to do whatever the hell they want. Spain has a female Vice-President! That's not what it is. It's the muscle we bring to the table and use in support of Israel that is at the root. But we're all in their business and arrogant as hell about it and people like you rubbing their noses in what is wrong with their culture, etc. You are to blame for why they hate us Dave. But they like that. You are a great marketing tool (heh) for them.

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 7:45:56 PM

Since it would be my guess ---no one on this board has ever been tortured...don't you think its a little foolish for you to be stating waterboarding is NOT torture...the few that know so little...have so much to say..my guess would be YOU would be the first to confess to killing your grandmother if you were waterboarded...only a coward would think torture is a means to get information..I suggest we use perry mason methods..which is what the CIA normally did. Physicological torture is much more effective in breaking someone down..you back seat wannabeterrorists..are just cowards-whether you are Al queda or American..better yet..lets toss you to the terrorists if you are so f###ing brave...

Posted by: cowgirl | Apr 23, 2009 8:18:04 PM

Toss him?...hell Dave *IS* a terrorist. He knows what waterboarding feels like, he knows that THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM! (I thought that one was DOA 7 years ago...but alive and kicking on planet Dave.), he knows where OBL is (though apparently doesn't care...he's patriotic like that), he knows who they love...Dave is our man on the ground in al Qaeda!

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 8:27:13 PM

THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM!!!

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 8:27:37 PM

Of course Klein and The Note don't think anything should be done about acts of torture and the clear violation of U.S. and international law.

After all, when the Bush administration WAS torturing people, Klein and The Note didn't utter so much as a peep. They are complicit the same way much of the mainstream media are complicit in the many crimes committed during those dark days.

So ... if they didn't care about torture then, why on earth would they care about it now? Except to joke about it, of course.

Posted by: James Harrison | Apr 23, 2009 8:28:39 PM

I recall it was a guy who worked in the wallmart photo developing..that stopped an attack from happening on american soil..not torture policies. not homeland security,.as i recall, it was the Sunni Awakening that ran the Al Queda out of Iraq..not americans or torture policies..NOW -those are facts..the rest is pure BS..of the kind we heard for the last 8 years...

Posted by: cowgirl | Apr 23, 2009 8:30:55 PM

I just had a filet wrapped in bacon...USA STYLE!...along with some freedom fries and DEEEEEE-licious AMERICAN broccoli. F YEAH! Now I'm going to pound some good old American Budweiser (Guinness actually...don't tell Dave) and Jack Daniels (Powers actually, but don't tell Dave)!

Cue up the Lee Greenwood, you Freedom-hating Communists!!

Posted by: Silky | Apr 23, 2009 8:38:49 PM

Dave..You don't seem to get it..what makes this country great and free...is the Rule of Law..take that away and we are a third rate country with no Honor or Dignity..you propose we act as uncivilized and backward as our enemies...then what sets us apart from them..freedom?? That is a joke, Cheney degraded this country in a way i didn't ever think was possible..and spit on our values and way of life..I am all for loading you waterboarders up and flying you over Somalia or pakistan and giving you a boot in the Butt..and let you take your chances..you want to be uncivilized??/ well, get close up and personal with it..

Posted by: cowgirl | Apr 23, 2009 8:41:11 PM

Our Country is going broke and "OUR LEADERS IN WASHINGTON" or keeping us busy with "TOURTURE OF THE ENEMY". In the mean time they are doing as they always do. Passing laws to help the money people and break the working class. Our LEADERS do not want a working class ,because, we are hard to control. The "ILLEGALS and the WELFARE PEOPLE" can be lead ,because, they are getting something for nothing. I am all for helping any of these people ,however, our LEADERS are breaking the programs that we have built over the years for our retirement. Ask any one of the WONDERFUL LEADERS how much of their HEALTH CARE they are giving up to increase benefits for the under priviledged. I can tell you they are "GIVING UP NOTHING". They have 100% coverage for themselves and their Family's. Their Health Care is on a very different scale than the one we are on and they will recieve it for the rest of their lives. Let's get them on the same programs we have and see how much they are really willing to "GIVE UP". It is very easy to give away what belongs to some one else when it does not effect what you are recieveing.How many Republicans OR Democrates do you think would vote to change their HEALTH CARE to our Medicade & Medicare. Again I can tell you "NOT ONE",because, they are in a class of their own. Call your Senators and Representitives and ask them if they are willing to go to Medicade or Medicare instead of the programs they are recieveing to help the "UNDERPRIVILEDGED".Be prepared for about a 2 hour story about why they could not do that. Be prepared to be called "A RIGHTWING TERRORIST" because you are questioning them and are not going along with their program. Wake up America and "GOD SAVE US FROM OUR LEADERS"
. They are a bigger threat than any Terrorist Group I know of.

Posted by: Don Park | Apr 24, 2009 10:01:01 AM

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