Fucking While Feminist, With Jaclyn Friedman
Jaclyn Friedman is, in short, a feminist rock star. She is the executive director of WAM!: Women, Action & the Media. She edited the incredible Yes Means Yes!: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape, and continues the work of dismantling rape culture in her weekly pro-sex column. She writes as compellingly about taking off her shirt for fun as she does her college sexual assault. And she has been fucking under these conditions for nearly 20 years.
Fucking while feminist presents a peculiar set of challenges for the pro-sex single. How do you talk rape culture on a first date while still managing to get laid once in a while? How do you find the feminist guy who won’t self-flagellate to the point of unfuckability? How do you avoid dying alone, basically? Friedman agreed to talk to me about establishing a feminist fucking litmus test, the art of locating non-douchey sex partners online, and the secret perks of fucking a feminist.
Sexist: So I was eating dinner with my boyfriend the other day and I started talking about my opinions on rape kits and shit, and I realized that I could probably never talk about this stuff on a first date with someone I had never met.
JF: And if you were me, you would go the a first date, and he would ask, “So, what do you do?” My online dating profile says that I’ve written a book and I’m writing another one. So they ask about it. And then literally ten minutes into a first date I’m talking about rape culture.
How does that usually work out?
JF: The way I hope it will work is that they ask these initial questions before we meet in person. So then they can go offline and collect their thoughts and then respond to me. My profile says I’m a feminist. So a lot of people who would be really scared off by me, we don’t get very far. When the whole Polanski thing was going down, I had this big argument with a guy about Polanski. First date. And last one.
Do you have any feminist litmus tests?
JF: I would like for there to be a set of feminist litmus tests that I could reference and use to find the right guy. Right now, I feel like I’m in an endless cycle of asking myself, “Am I willing to let this slide?” I’m mostly dating guys right now, which is fairly new for me. From my early 20s to my mid-30s I dated exclusively women and trans men. I’m not romanticizing that, like “it’s so much easier with women”—let me tell you, it’s not. But it’s a different set of questions you have to ask. I don’t feel like I can go in to these dates expecting dudes to know as much about feminism or sexuality studies or rape culture, the stuff that I live my life talking about and thinking about. I feel like I’m going to die alone if I do that.
. . . Here is what’s depressing about dating while feminist. Feminism is what I do with my life, it’s how I spend my days, it’s my job, it’s not just an opinion I have among many other opinions. If I had a hardcore litmus test, the pool of men I could date would be so tiny. And then when you weeded out men who are gay, the men I don’t find attractive, the men already in monogamous, committed relationships—really, I would never get laid again. So I do feel that I have to try to be flexible out of necessity. But if I were to end up with someone—and I do want a long-term, stable relationship with someone at some point—they would have to be feminist on some basic level. They would have to be.
Have you ever turned anyone feminist?
JF: That would be lovely, wouldn’t it? If I could turn a man feminist with the power of my vagina? It hasn’t happened yet. . . . When I was younger, I dated mostly women and trans men. Those relationships didn’t work out, obviously, they had their own issues. But the feminist thing wasn’t as much of an issue. And the only cisgender man I’ve been in a longterm relationship was a feminist when I met him. We would have feminism arguments where I was educated by him, and vice versa. And I thought, well, how lucky I am to have found a feminist guy! And he ended up being an ass . . . in somewhat unrelated ways.
Is there anything that men can mention in their dating profiles that tips you off to feminist compatibility?
JF: I’m e-mailing a guy right now I really want to meet who used the word “heteronormativity” in his profile . . . aside from that, which almost never happens, more what I look for is. . . you know the Bechdel Test for films? It states that any good film has to have two female characters who talk to each other about something other than a guy. Well, this is my test: When I look at personal ads, I look at their lists of favorite books, movies, and music, and they have to list women in all of those categories. They don’t have to have a majority of women, but they have to know that women exist in the culture and be fans of some of them. It’s a pretty low bar—or it should be. I used to look for guys who don’t list Fight Club in their favorites, but I’ve had to relax that rule, because all dudes evidently love Fight Club. I do draw the line at Ayn Rand. It’s more about avoiding red flags than anything else. . . . I also don’t respond to any guy who says they’re looking for a woman who “doesn’t have drama,” not because I have a lot of drama, but because I feel like that is code for women who have opinions.
. . . I also have a couple things in my profile that are screeners, that I’m hoping will turn off people I don’t want to be bothered by. I mention feminism. I say I’m a size 16. But I do it all in a flirty way, like, ’size 16 can be sexy,” not in a way that says, “I AM ALL THESE THINGS. DEAL WITH IT.”
So when you tell people that you’re a feminist, do they have assumptions about what the sex is going to be like?
JF: If you Google me, it’s pretty obvious where I stand on the sex stuff. Whenever I end up talking about my work on rape, I also am immediately communicating that I’m a pro-sex feminist. . . . I have been with some men who are surprised that I am, shall we say, less than vanilla in bed . . . A couple of guys were shocked that I like to play various games in bed, because I’m a feminist. That’s always really interesting to me. I’m always like, ‘Are you kidding me? The feminists I know are the craziest women in bed you can find!” Those are the moments where I feel like a one-woman feminist PR machine. I’m instructing the world one man at a time that feminists are really fun to sleep with.
So do you meet guys who pass the feminist test but then turn out to be disappointments for other reasons?
JF: Oh God. There is a type of feminist guy who is so eager to fall over himself to be deferential to women and to prove his feminist bona fides and flagellate himself in front of you, to the point that it really turns me off. And it makes me sad, because politically, these are the guys that I should be sleeping with! You know what I’m talking about?
YES.
JF: Everyone knows what I’m talking about. And some of them are even really cute! I want to say to them, “If you could be a person, like a whole, complicated person, who I feel like I could crack jokes around, then I would really like you.” But they’re so serious about their feminism at every moment that I don’t feel like a person to them. I feel like I’m on a pedestal, almost. I know that they’re not going to disagree with anything I say under any circumstances. And I don’t feel like I can make a raunchy joke about sex, because they’ll be horrified. . . . I hate to be critical of our allies in any way, because we need them, but there’s something about that certain kind of hyperfeminist guy that makes them unappealing to date, to me. I suspect it has something to do with our internal conceptions of masculinity, which is terrible on my part.
I think it’s also that they haven’t really gotten comfortable with their feminism yet.
JF: Yes. They haven’t internalized their feminism, so it’s always being externalized. And it places a lot of pressure on the women they’re with. There’s this very self-conscious performance of feminism. And it does sometimes feel like they want a cookie. . . . OK, I know this is such a delicate conversation to have, but I want those guys to wake up because those are the guys I want to want to sleep with!
So do you have any other fucking while feminist horror stories?
JF: . . . What happens to me that drives me up a tree is this: The guys who respond to me and are like, ‘You’re awesome. You’re kind of a hellcat.” They think it’s cool and kind of bad-ass that I’m outspoken and passionate about things. They think that’s really hot. They’re into it. But then when that outspokenness gets applied back to them, it’s suddenly game-over. You know the idea of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl? She’s light, and quirky, and she has no inner life of her own, and just there to serve our hero’s development and erotic interests. I sort of feel that I get cast in these dudes’ narratives as the Hellcat Dream Girl, there to prove how bad-ass they are because they’re dating such a bad-ass woman. They think it’s cute or sexy. But when I use that smart, outspoken bad-assery to challenge their own perspectives, it’s suddenly not sexy at all. It happens when they say something that I disagree with, and I act like a person and not someone that is playing out their particular fantasies.
It’s happened to me a million times . . . they want it as a trophy. “Hey, look at my bad-ass girl.” They don’t want to deal with me as a person. It follows this pattern where it usually comes from a person who seeks me out. They try to seduce me. They think I would be an accomplishment to conquer or something. They seek me out and try to get me interested in them, and then I am, and then they flee. . . . I feel like the same thing happened with the guy I dated for two years. He liked the idea of being a guy who would be with someone like me, but ultimately it turned out that he wanted someone who wouldn’t challenge him as much, a person who was easier and quicker to sweep away. I got evidence of that when, within three months of breaking up with me, he was dating a 23 year old who lists her political views on Facebook as “moderate.”
Do you ever feel like there’s a conflict between your life as a professional feminist and your personal life?
JF: Oftentimes I wonder what the people who know me professionally would think about the compromises I make when I’m dating. I wish this were a live conversation where other feminists were weighing in. I’d like to know what other women are doing. Am I making the right compromises here? Should dating require these sorts of compromises? Is there any tactic that produces better results? . . . I feel very unsure about what the best way is to live my politics and have a sex life. I really feel in the weeds about it. But it’s something I think about all the time, and I don’t feel like I have the answers.
Photo by Anh Dao Kolbe
10:30 am
You know I love Fight Club, right? I think it’s a companion piece to Susan Faludi’s Stiffed, an exploration of manhood in an increasingly consumerist and atomized culture, so … I think I’m getting different things out of it from the average guy who puts it in an online dating profile.
11:18 am
Thomas, it’s because of guys like you that I gave up Fight Club as a litmus test. Because I’ve learned that a lot of smart, progressive, even feminist guy like Fight Club. But I really disagree. I think it claims to be about some universal “manhood” when it’s actually specifically about white, straight manhood, which infuriates me. And women in the book have no agency whatsoever – Marla is some kind of Depressive Pixie Dream Girl, for sure. There’s much more I could say, but I don’t want to threadjack.
11:35 am
The movie is better.
11:50 am
Is it? I never watched it – my opinions are about the book only. Maybe that’s the key?
11:58 am
Your Bechdel test for guys profiles? I do the exact same thing only I list it right out in my profile. Not that it’s a definite deal breaker for me, but the guys who message me are put on notice (assuming they actually read my profile) that I do notice those things and will call them out.
Great Jaclyn, now I have yet another blogger I want to be BFFs with and share dating horror stories with. Sheesh ;)
12:10 pm
Me, me, me. Anyone else seems like a tool to build her “bad-ass” attitude. How, um, progressive.
12:18 pm
Yes, Esteban, why oh why would she care about her own reaction to her own dating life. How, um, … wait, what exactly was your argument again?
12:59 pm
Jaclyn, I also wish there was some guide to dating as a pro-sex feminist. There are the guys who claim to be feminist and use it as an excuse to do whatever they want. The guys who want a strong feminist woman to take control of their lives and excuse them from ever having to make another hard decision. But I’ve found the great majority of “dateable” guys that are not educated about feminism are not bad men, they are just not aware of what we feminists are working towards.
In my current relationship with a very good man I have taken an incremental approach to explaining what feminism is and how it relates to his life. When we hear a story about “corrective rape” in South Africa on NPR that can become a conversation about the rape culture here. When we see an ad that sexualizes rape, I try to explain how these images normalize violence against women. Why “Law and Order SVU” sucks. Point being, I’ve tried to show him the world through my eyes. There are compromises; the gender roles are a little more traditional than I would like but he passes my personal litmus test of seeing me as an individual rather than filling the role as an archetype for their personal narrative. I’ll take it.
1:14 pm
This is a great interview apart from this piece:
“From my early 20s to my mid-30s I dated exclusively women and trans men. I’m not romanticizing that, like ‘it’s so much easier with women’—let me tell you, it’s not”
It’s so…fetishizing. Trans men are not women!
1:17 pm
basketcasey, I’m well aware that trans men aren’t women. “It’s so much easier with women” was meant as one example of the the ways queer relationships sometimes get romanticized, not an all-inclusive example. Sorry if that wasn’t clear enough.
1:55 pm
Did you have a hard time finding feminist girls to date? It’s something I’ve had struggles with.
3:02 pm
Well I guess I’d be fucked because I can’t think of a single female director who has made consistently excellent films. Also you write off rand, but where does leguin fall?
3:54 pm
“I’m mostly dating guys right now, which is fairly new for me. From my early 20s to my mid-30s I dated exclusively women and trans men.”
I’m with basketcasey. Specifically excluding trans men from the category “guys”? Not cool.
@Jaclyn: All well and good that you say you know trans men aren’t women, but from where I’m sitting you just said they (we) aren’t men, either.
Interesting interview. I’m interested in the information gleaned from “favourites,” especially the (relaxed) Fight Club rule. It’s a shame there’s no way of knowing whether someone’s appreciation of their “favourites” is uncritical–although sometimes, that can be an informative conversation-starter, I suppose, and finding out exactly what they like about Fight Club an early litmus test in and of itself.
4:17 pm
Duck, I apologize for the lack of specificity. The deliniation I’m trying to make is that, honestly, most of the trans guys I know and/or have dated are much more feminist than the cis guys I’ve dated. Sloppy language, and I apologize.
5:33 pm
I’d say Fight Club, the movie at least, is pretty pro-feminist! granted, it’s a rather complex film, and so the more subversive elements (the homoeroticism for example) fly right over the head of a mass audience. but in general i’d say the movie (again, dont know the book) is about the acceptance/incorporation of the feminine within a masculine identity as a more effective way to resist corporate/consumer culture than the eternal appeal of fascism/masculinity in extremis.
5:35 pm
Have to comment about the Fight Club reference for one reason: Chuck Palahniuk (author of Fight Club) is a feminist. He’s friends with Susan Faludi. Fight Club is not automatically anti-feminist. In fact, it’s the only thing that got me through being raped.
6:29 pm
I am a man and I HATE Fight Club. I never watch it. I spend most of my time either online, DXing or playing video games.
7:08 pm
Great interview. Fucking While Feminist is just the kind of discussion that should be happening more. How do we reconcile our personal lives with our politics? Should we make some concessions for the sake of getting laid, even when feminism is so central to the way we experience society? This goes for platonic relationships too. Do we “choose our battles,” and let “little things” go, or is anything really a “little thing”? Do we overlook some ideological dissonance because the relationship is otherwise fabulous? IMO it depends on the incident(s) and the context.
I second kza’s question: Did you have any trouble finding feminist cis women and/or trans men to date? I assume, being queer and experienced myself, that you had some trouble, but different than with cis hetero men.
Related to that question: After this interesting interview, I’d love to see a “Queer Fucking While Feminist” of sorts, that explores those particular set of challenges.
7:56 pm
Hmm sounds like you want your cake and eat it too. They have to agree with you but not TOO much
8:11 pm
Palahniuk may be personally feminist, but I definitely would not call his *work* particularly feminist. There’s a lot there to take issue with. I was a bit disappointed with _Choke_ (the film, at least, since I haven’t read the book). But a lot of his work does question traditional masculinity and stereotypes (yes, even _Fight Club_) and shouldn’t be dismissed outright. I think the Fight Club is less about the fighting itself and more about pain, self-denial, self-destruction/redemption, and struggling with one’s body (and mind) and limitations in fundamental ways, and many women can relate to that. I do. And the Fight Club is not the panacea; it turns out to be a joke, a cult. The movie’s very dystopian besides for the feeble romance.
Sorry to be the English major party-crasher. Ha.
9:51 pm
“Hmm sounds like you want your cake and eat it too. They have to agree with you but not TOO much”
Ben, doesn’t _everybody_ want a partner who is “in sync” on worldview issues? Atheists aren’t generally thrilled at dating theists, either. In my country, rugby union fans would have huge issues dating rugby league fans, let alone Aussie Rules or soccer fans. It’s called “having stuff in common”.
But wanting some level of shared outlook/worldview doesn’t mean we want a partner who just says what they think we want to hear, because just humouring us to keep us happy is patronising pat-on-the-head stuff rather than them actually taking our opinions seriously and respecting them enough to discuss and challenge them where needed.
This is basic compatibility and respect stuff, not “wanting to have your cake and eat it too” stuff.
2:38 am
If I had a cake and someone tried to keep me from eating it, a fight club might break out. ;O) -j
3:21 am
I’m a straight male and I think Fight Club (the movie) is awesome. Marla is only in the movie to move the plot along, because this is not a movie for or about women – don’t get mad, there are lots of movies to go around.
Fight Club represents the counterpoint to feminism, masculism if you will. Gen X males coming to the terms with the fact we are no longer needed, we have no great struggle and we are mindless consumers. Fight Club is about letting go of all that, embracing the fact we are not special and finding meaning (and that meaning is not found in women). If you were to die today what would you regret not doing?
As for rape culture etc being a difficult discussion in first dates, do what I do: I ignore any woman who asks me before or during the first date “What do you do?” I hate this question, my job is not a reflection of who I am or my personality (and will stay that way unless I get a job as a Dinosuar Cowboy… or Cowboy Dinosaur!). Likewise I have no interest in her job (unless she’s a lawyer, because, y’know, gotta fight evil and lawyers).
3:30 am
I think what she is trying to say here is that yes we want to date feminists, but a lot of feminist men, either in an attempt to get in our pants, or because they are not quite comfortable with the whole feminism thing basically go out of their way to bash on themselves and constantly apologize for being born male. I don’t like that in a potential boyfriend. Accept your privilege, keep it in check, and move on, but don’t expect us to be happy about men hating themselves in the name of feminism
4:39 am
“The deliniation I’m trying to make is that, honestly, most of the trans guys I know and/or have dated are much more feminist than the cis guys I’ve dated. Sloppy language, and I apologize.”
So trans dudes are Probably More Feminist Because Of Their Ovaries or something? It’s not just the way you worded it, your whole stance suggests that trans dudes are an aside from dudes, and that’s fucked up, Jaclyn Friedman.
6:51 am
“JF: Oh God. There is a type of feminist guy who is so eager to fall over himself to be deferential to women and to prove his feminist bona fides and flagellate himself in front of you, to the point that it really turns me off. And it makes me sad, because politically, these are the guys that I should be sleeping with! You know what I’m talking about?”
“..but there’s something about that certain kind of hyperfeminist guy that makes them unappealing to date, to me. I suspect it has something to do with our internal conceptions of masculinity, which is terrible on my part.”
This is humorous because this is EXACTLY the reality on which the whole Game Theory is based. Chapter and verse.
9:13 am
“Gen X males coming to the terms with the fact we are no longer needed, we have no great struggle and we are mindless consumers. Fight Club is about letting go of all that, embracing the fact we are not special and finding meaning”
Max, speak for yourself. Im a single, independent, secure male who doesnt need or want a woman in my life. Im content doing things for myself and doing them well. The few times Ive been involved with women they wind up wanting to control every detail that it has driven me away from them. You can find plenty of meaning in your life as a single person and this goes for men and women. I have many female friends but dont have interest in dating any of them. I see too many guys my age (Gen X’ers as you say) fawn over women and I dont understand why.
10:02 am
Charlotte, please don’t put words into my mouth. I’m not trying to say anything universal about all trans men, and I certainly haven’t said anything about ovaries or biological determinism. All I’m saying is that, in my personal experience, the trans men I’ve met have ben much more likely to be feminist-identified or have thought about feminist ideas than the cis men I’ve met. For what is, I’m sure, an incredibly complex, socially constructed set of reasons.
Which goes a little to kza and Dawn.’s question – I would say it was a *lot* easier to find queer cis women and trans men that were feminist and that I wanted to date than I’ve found it to be with het cis men. I mean, it’s hard to separate – there were a couple dry spells in my 20s where I couldn’t find *anyone* I wanted to date who also wanted to date me for a year or two. And I wonder if my standards aren’t higher for queer cis women and trans men – because my personal experience has been that there’s a much higher percentage of feminists among these two groups than there is among cis guys, am I more easily turned off by a lack of feminism when interacting with cis women or trans men? Possible. Fair? Probably not. Something for me to think about…
11:52 am
Jaclyn,
Your last comment raises an interesting question for me about the demographics of feminist identification. What percentage of gay men identify as feminist? How many women who have only had relationships with men identify as feminist? How many trans het women? Trans queer women? And so on. I’m probably dreaming, but if anyone knows any studies that have broken down feminist identification in this way, let me know!
Amanda
12:22 pm
I’d predict that a high percentage of trans people identify as feminist, mostly because we get to see the difference between being recognized as female and male. It was a big shock to go from being oblivious to my surroundings as a male to being a victim of attempted sexual assault in the same area that I used to hang out in.
12:28 pm
I want to comment on the point of this article, so you’ll have to excuse me from the Fight Club/transmen debate. ;-P
Jaclyn, I completely feel you, even beyond the dating. There’s a constant struggle to never contradict anything you believe in your daily life, which often ends up being alienating. In reality, we have to make these compromises every day. Our identities aren’t free of contradiction; I may consider myself a feminist and laugh at occasional sexism on television (albeit guiltily).
I read somewhere (tvtropes?) that the Bechdel test often passes movies that don’t consider themselves very feminist, but because of the limits of the test often these works tend to be just as, if not more, feminist than movies that tote the label. I think it’s similar for the men & women in the dating pool. My current boyfriend wouldn’t apply the f-word to himself, but I would consider him a feminist simply because of the way he acts.
I think the trick is just to find people you _like_ which is always difficult. Maybe someone doesn’t agree with you on smaller issues, but can you get along with that person? Do they support you? Are they pro-choice? Do they respect you? That’s what you have to find; relationships of any kind are constant compromise.
2:34 pm
Potential litmus #1:
his last girlfriend isn’t an idiot (ask for references)
3:55 pm
Jaclyn,
“And then literally ten minutes into a first date I’m talking about rape culture.”
well, talk about it in a less accusatory language. This is something I’ve only recently understood (I think I have) and some other people are apparently beginning to understand as well – http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/talking-past-each-other/ – much of the problem is *in the language itself*. I think that much of feminist vocabulary is bound to make guys defensive if you haven’t spent a couple of months to dissect what exactly you mean by it. If you say “we live in a rape culture”, chance are the guy is going to hear “I’m gonna call the cops if you try to kiss me at the end of the night”. Remember the “Schrödinger’s Rapist” piece? I think it was useful advice to guys, something that is rare for feminist authors, but it was still mostly seen as accusatory. And that, I’d say, is mostly a consequence of the language.
There is a very, very long, and very good, conversation about masculinity and feminism at Clarisse Thorn’s blog in which I participated. It took about three months to get to a point where there was a basic understanding of *why* we’re talking past each other with particular words in particular contexts and when terms are applicable and when not (http://clarissethorn.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/manliness-and-feminism-the-followup/#comment-1645).
I think there is a tendency among feminists to underestimate the shaming potential of their discourse. And that, almost naturally, leads either to a certain socio-sexual submissiveness – that you complain about here (I have expanded that in this comment in the mentioned thread http://clarissethorn.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/manliness-and-feminism-the-followup/#comment-1508 -
“OK, I know this is such a delicate conversation to have, but I want those guys to wake up because those are the guys I want to want to sleep with!”
or affirmative rejection of a discourse seen as unfairly limiting.
Interestingly, a similar question seems to have been part of Clarisse’s initial motivation to get into the topic -
http://clarissethorn.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/questions-i-want-to-ask-entitled-cis-het-men-part-1/ -
“A male friend once wrote to me, “I think you personally find expressions of masculinity hot, but you also have no patience with sexism. You’ve caught on that it’s tricky for men to figure out how to deliver both of these things you need, that you don’t have a lot of good direction to give to fellas about it, and that neither does anyone else.””
In my opinion, one of the most important issues here is that the general level of feminist advice – you say “wake up” – is not going to help most guys who are looking for a lot more broken down behavioral clues in such situations. And there’s not a lot feminism has to offer in that respect, “not a lot” is an exxageration already.
And even when guys are trying to come up with feminism-compatible dating advice – http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/02/24/pickup-and-seduction-techniques-for-feminists-noh/ – a lot of feminist commentators quickly turn to saying how it’s sexist to even think about wanting to get into a woman’s pants. I’m sure you see how there’s a certain inherent contradiction in that discourse.
So I think that the biggest part of the problem is – again – a common feminist desire to have any debate only their terms, potentially to keep the discoursive hegemony in gender matters. But that’s not likely to work, and it’s probably only lead to more misunderstandings of people who probably agree with each other on a fundamental level.
And, reading this interview as a googleable footnote to your dating profile, could possibly join forces even in more personal matters.
Good luck for finding the one!
4:37 pm
Jaclyn, sorry for not being clearer. what bothered me is that you said “dating guys right now, which is fairly new for me”, not “dating cis straight men who are less likely to have been exposed to the feminisms, which is fairly new for me” or a variant thereof. You said “dating guys.” you know, NORMAL guys. REAL guys. bros.
I’m sure that wasn’t how it was intended at all, but you have to also think about how that comes off to other people… after all I’m told there is kind of a nasty stereotype about trans men being special, sensitive womanly men, or some such, and that’s something to avoid. etc. Does that make better sense?
4:50 pm
i love l&o! why does law and order svu suck? (i’m actually interested, i’m not trying to argue!)
4:51 pm
Charlotte, it does make sense, but that’s what I understood in the first place when I apologized in response to Duck for being sloppy with my language. Sorry that my apology was evidently sloppy, too!
5:50 pm
“If you say “we live in a rape culture”, chance are the guy is going to hear “I’m gonna call the cops if you try to kiss me at the end of the night”. ”
“I think there is a tendency among feminists to underestimate the shaming potential of their discourse. ”
Aw, poor babies.
Really…I know you’re trying to be constructive, but I hear this sort of thing and I just think, “grow a spine.” If a guy’s so delicate that a little (or a lot of) feminism sends him off into a whiny little fugue of self-pity and fear…well, that’s his problem, not feminism’s.
6:07 pm
NoahB,
“well, that’s his problem, not feminism’s.”
well, if you say so. But in this case it’s also Jaclyn’s problem. And to constantly reiterate that something is someone else’s problem isn’t going to help anyone solve it.
Btw, I didn’t say anything about whining, just about perceptions and a lot of guys either *avoiding* this kind of discourse and the people in it or often becoming submissive to female opinion in the way Jaclyn describes as unattractive.
8:56 pm
Do you ever wonder what would happen if you started thinking and acting like feminists and stopped obsessing about ‘how women are’ and ‘how men are’ and instead just realized that all people have a lot more in common with each other than they have dissimilar? The idea that certain categories of people are more or less likely to be feminists simply because of their genitalia and/or orientation (het men vs. trans men. vs. gay women)is, in itself, antifeminist. You know that right?
10:32 pm
Thank you for this, Jaclyn (and Amanda Hess/Washington City Paper)! I love your comment about sex with feminists being so great, because I absolutely agree. :-) Also, I’m a big fan of ‘Yes Means Yes’; I own my own copy and even got one for a friend.
“And the only cisgender man I’ve been in a longterm relationship was a feminist when I met him. We would have feminism arguments where I was educated by him, and vice versa. And I thought, well, how lucky I am to have found a feminist guy! And he ended up being an ass . . . in somewhat unrelated ways.”
Your words above ring so (painfully) true to me right now. I just ended a very committed, long-term, long-distance relationship with a man whom I felt exactly the same way about: “And I thought, well, how lucky I am to have found a feminist guy” who also happened to volunteer with sex ed, etc. But then he cheated on me with a fellow member of his feminist group at university, whom he also misled. That’s just the tip of the iceberg, but it’s really made me question the ability to find a feminist ally guy, although I know some, of course! But I’m hopeful, too, and just focusing on my own happiness and will see what the future holds.
While I don’t know other than from your writing, I gotta say: any guy (or girl or beyond) would be lucky to date you!
12:04 am
Ryan @15
Yes. Best synopsis I have seen here or over at Iglesia’s place, where the film is being discussed in more detail.
One would think that the ending with Brad Pitt/Tyler Durbin character being “killed” and the Edward Norton/Narrator character left standing with Marla watching the symbolic representation of the vacuous, atomized mass society crashing down in the background would make your point obvious.
But beyond that, it’s a movie and a large part of its goal is entertainment. And I reckon anyone who says they weren’t surprised when the twist is revealed is either not telling the truth or really, really clever.
2:41 am
I tend to go for academic types and have never had to have a peremptory feminist speech before dating a partner. I’ve always sought relationships with men who have similar taste in music, literature, politics, etc., and the feminism seems naturally to follow for them. I’m not sure why. Sound familiar to anyone?
2:51 am
Posted first at Yglesias’s blog in support of Fight Club:
I’m basing this observation on just doing a crtl+4 on this thread, but how did everyone miss that the author of Fight Club, Chuck Palahniuk, is openly gay? My understanding is that at times he has been both a Buddhist and a vegetarian. Not only that, but his father and his father’s girlfriend were both murdered by that girlfriend’s obsessive ex-husband right around the time Palahniuk started becoming successful. His novel Invisible Monsters rips apart traditional gender norms. Fincher, the director, has explicitly stated that the film is meant to be homoerotic, from the bathtub scenes to opening with the gun down Ed Norton’s mouth.
2:53 am
The guys who want a strong feminist woman to take control of their lives and excuse them from ever having to make another hard decision.
Women tend to be extremely contemptuous of men they perceive as weak. In this way, women are just as involved as men are in policing masculinity.
3:49 am
I agreed with most of what Jaclyn has to say, but this stood out to me as just wrong, or at least wrong in many cases, enough to bother commenting about:
“I also don’t respond to any guy who says they’re looking for a woman who “doesn’t have drama,” not because I have a lot of drama, but because I feel like that is code for women who have opinions.”
Jaclyn: You’re right, it is a code, but it’s a code for “women who are batshit crazy.”
I would also opine, and I don’t think I am too far out of line in saying this, that bringing up rape culture and insisting on a discussion of it, on every first date, is just not a fantastic way to meet gentlemen. It doesn’t matter that Friedman is a professional feminist; being a feminist does not necessitate discussing a very violent and painful subject on first dates, not anymore than, say, being a general surgeon requires that you discuss the finer points of bowel surgery on every first date.
There are just certain topics that you can avoid having be the primary focus of a first date, and this is one of them, and that’s that. Period, paragraph.
If a man is interested in a feminist, even after finding out that (gasp! oh no!) she’s a feminist and very outspoken about it, that (along with a few appropriate answers to probing questions during an initial conversation) really should establish his bona fides enough, for a first date. He shouldn’t have to prove he’s the ultimate feminist Renaissance man by talking about rape culture for an hour. Because you know what rape culture is about? It’s about RAPE. It seems pretty reasonable to me to note that most respectful guys are pretty uncomfortable with rape, the very idea of it, and it therefore really isn’t the most pleasant thing to discuss. We do, as a society, have to discuss it, of course. We need to do so more than we currently do. But this also isn’t a good argument for including it as first-date material.
As an aside, it’s also one of the very worst ways I can think of to get an interesting sexual dynamic going. Which, uh, last I checked, was one of the frequent goals of first dates.
6:04 am
I had a litmus test for girls too. If you like (Le Fabuleux Destin de) Amélie, it’s game over. Likewise, I had to relax that rule as well since inexplicably everyone seems to like it.
On that note: yeah, anyone with an ounce of testosterone in their bodies will love Fight Club, there’s no way around it. It’s ’cause there’s a lot of fighting in there. We like fightin’. Grrr!
10:42 am
NoahB (#37): see, as a guy deeply unhappy with current masculine culture, it’s comments like yours that make me reluctant to identify as feminist. (Amongst other things.) Feel any emotions at all? Don’t express them, or you’re not a Real Man and will get infantilizing attacks like that one.
Between that and the general use of coercive masculinity as a weapon of social control – why do you think the Man Up! campaign is named the way it is? – not going there. (Of course, masculinity has always been just that. How else could you get millions of men to die brutally abroad in pointless wars?)
10:59 am
>I also don’t respond to any guy who says they’re looking for a woman who “doesn’t have drama,” not because I have a lot of drama, but because I feel like that is code for women who have opinions.
You can send those dudes my way. “Drama” isn’t code for opinions; it’s shorthand for emotional dysregulation. To me, a man who doesn’t want drama is a man who wants a mature, intelligent, level-headed woman who is driven by logic and practicality instead of emotion. Sounds like a feminist-lovin’ guy to me!
11:02 am
Well, my partner hates Fight Club (like I do) and loves Amelie (er, not at all like I do) so if we’re applying some Bechdel Test Guy Test, I’m stuffed! =)
More to the point, Jaclyn: I hear you in so so many ways. Especially the Manic Pixie Hellcat Status Symbol – “look at me, my dick is so big I can afford to be with a strong woman!”. Hah. Hello, ex-husband.
I’d also add that that sort of guy, once you get into a long term committed relationship with him, is actually a synthesis of a trophy-seeking sexist and the responsibility-avoiding Peter Pan woh sometimes masks his weakness and fearfulness with unconditional assent. Because he wants a strong woman who can indirectly boost his masculine credentials, but also take control over his life and all major decisions, and *also* never actually challenge his opinions and prejudices. It’s an M.C. Escher tangle of Freudian complexes, and an impossible tight rope walk between having all of the responsibility but none of the power while successfully maintaining the illusion that it’s actually the other way around.
As a corrollary to the problems of dating while feminist, I would say that even once you do find someone who is just the right amount of feminist in his actions, in bed and out of it, it’s still an ongoing negotiation. I often find that it’s myself I have to negotiate with rather than my partner. He never batted an eyelid when I stopped shaving my armpits, for example; but it was me myself and I who went into some kind of crazy gender roles dilemma about cooking and stopped doing it because of too much “do I really like it or am I just conforming” angst. A year later, being bit fatter and a lot poorer after eating out way too much, I’ve found a middle ground for myself, but my point is that it’s not just the man you have to compromise with but sometimes yourself and your own expectations (and separating the feminist ones from the normative ones is no picnic either!).
11:22 am
Not being a feminist doesnt make one a bad person, or someone not worthwile of dating. I dont and never will identify as feminist, read much in the way of feminist writings, etc. but I lead my life admirably and I treat all people with a sense of mutual respect if it has been earned. I agree with Key (#39). Treat people as individuals and dont lump them into all these categories.
1:04 pm
tony if you do not identify as a feminist, then you do not agree that women are equal to you and therefore are not a decent guy.
1:44 pm
I really enjoyed that piece. I completely relate to what Jaclyn Friedman identifies with regards to compromising while dating. In my last relationship, I felt like I was constantly negotiating with myself. He grew very progressive, but his friends were sexist, racist and homophobic. He refused to challenge them, and wouldn’t back me when I did. It felt like his ‘feminism’ was a performance as well. And he too found it sexy that I was strong and “feisty”… until I challenged him and refused to I back down… even when he got in my face. I’m now with a man who is more traditionalist that I’d normally go for. But he loves me as is and we can disagree without me getting angry or hurt. There is a mutual respect that exists even if we disagree. NO relationship will ever be perfect and you’ll never agree about everything. As long as the fundamentals are there, the basic values, you love and respect each other… the rest really is negotiable.
1:55 pm
@Mako,
I agree and this is also why I don’t identify as a feminist. Comments about female-centered gender norms are constantly attacked, but male-centered gender norms seem to be A OK.
It should be a bit of a wakeup call to feminists that it is so difficult to find feminist men who don’t self-flagellate constantly. Create a discourse that flagellates men constantly and the men who buy into that discourse will self-flagellate. Ironically, many feminist women will then find that unattractive since they buy into many stereotypical roles about masculinity and what to find attractive in a man.
@Rebekah,
Except that somehow feminist no longer means simply thinking that women are equal to men. I don’t identify with feminism because I dislike the discourse that surrounds it. I don’t identify with feminism because of the numerous personal attacks I’ve gotten from a wide range of feminists because of my sexual preferences. I don’t identify as feminist because of the focus on purely womens issues, while treating mens issues as negligible and, in fact, oftentimes exploiting them. I don’t identify as feminism because, honestly, it doesn’t strike me as being a movement about equality, it strikes me as being a pro-woman movement.
This is, of course, not to say that all feminists or even the majority are deserving of those criticisms. But I’ve seen enough examples in the community to desire to distance myself from the term. Do I believe in equality? 100%. I’m planning on devoting my life to fighting for it. But despite that I, sadly, don’t consider myself a feminist, nor is it a term I would comfortably embrace.
1:58 pm
@Marina…
How exactly would a guy having a girl tell him what to do all the time and take responsibility for his life “boost his masculine credentials”? Indirectly or directly, I just don’t see that happening.
2:12 pm
Thanks Tony. What’s interesting is that no one should have to ‘identify as feminist,’ but often this idea persists. A feminist is just someone who believes in equality, so as long as you aren’t a misogynist, and you treat everyone with respect and don’t treat people differently based on their gender, congratulations! You are a feminist, and you didn’t even need to buy a book about sociological theory.
Feminism isn’t about knowing and celebrating how powerful and strong women are; it’s about knowing that everyone has the same potential to be weak or strong or needy or crazy or stable or interesting or argumentative or patient. We’re just people; we all suck, and we’re all in this together.
2:55 pm
rebekah: Identifying as feminist is not required to agree that women are equal to men. It also doesn’t guarantee anything – anyone can identify as a feminist. (Even being feminist doesn’t mean that someone believes in equality for women who aren’t white, cis, and having sex in the right way. I personally really distrust the argument that you must identify as feminist in order to be for women’s rights, because it’s especially popular with feminist whose brand of feminism attacks or erases other women that aren’t like themselves.)
6:02 pm
Have you ever dated any transsexual women? how did they fit into your feminist / women are easier matrix? I’m trans – and I used to be feminist, until I came across the transphobic hate from the Michigan womyns festival, radfems, Julie Bindel etc. Now – if that’s feminism, I’m out. A festival of cis-sexual privilege and denial, imho.