John McQuaid

John McQuaid

Posted: June 8, 2010 09:32 AM

The Real Helen Thomas Scandal

What's Your Reaction:

Last week, Israeli commandos boarded a relief ship attempting to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip and, during a clash with pro-Palestinian activists, shot nine people to death. It was an old-fashioned, bona fide "international incident," a fiasco that raised alarming questions about the current trajectory of Israel's security, the wisdom of its government, as well as the fate of Obama's Middle East policies and U.S. security in general.

Within a few days, though, the Washington media's "Israel narrative" abandoned those questions and focused instead on the ugly words and sudden retirement of cranky 89-year-old White House correspondent Helen Thomas. Somehow, the debate shifted from Israel behaving badly to Helen Thomas behaving badly.

I'm not going to defend Thomas -- what she said was deeply offensive. But in the overall scheme of things, it was a trivial incident, and DC's sudden obsession with it -- to the exclusion of a lot of other, more important things -- is especially ironic given the parlous state of the Israeli situation.

The Washington media universe may not have set a new speed record here for spinning itself, Tasmanian devil-style, from grave and difficult to trivial and ironic. (That seems, after all, to be what it does nearly every hour of every day.) But it did set a kind of distance record for leaping the moral gulf between important, complex issues and easy, knee-jerk ones.

If you withhold judgment for just a moment on Israel and the Palestinians, all you see are difficult issues, stark moral choices, no-win scenarios. The appalling economic conditions in Gaza, the awful paradox of a democratically-elected Hamas, the unintended consequences of Israel's unyielding military and diplomatic posture, the blowup with Turkey, potential impacts for terrorist recruitment, Iran, ad infinitum. But American politicians flee from these issues. Instead they fell over one another defending Israel for doing something indefensible. (Yes, of course the blockade-running is a provocation. But if you're smart, you don't kill provocateurs.)

The media and punditocracy follow the politicians. And pretty soon you've got Liz Cheney denouncing Turkey -- our ally -- for all but countenancing the destruction of Israel. Add Helen Thomas into this combustible mix, and a serious engagement with these issues (never a likelihood, but still) becomes impossible.

There are two problems here: The default media posture for hard issues is he-said-she-said, and when you try that with the Middle East all you get is people hurling accusations back and forth. That might work for cable chat shows, but not for understanding what's really going on in the Middle East. Worse, few in the media are smart or brave enough to weigh these issues. If they were, we might get more pushback on the vacuous political debate on Israel here in the United States. For instance, read Peter Beinart's carefully-argued piece on the failure of the American Jewish establishment in the New York Review of Books. Beinart's arguments are alarming. But he is simply too reasonable and nuanced to get much of a hearing in a media that feeds on outrage and is dealing with a situation that is a bottomless BP well of outrage. Reasonable won't cut it when you're arguing with Liz Cheney.

This post first appeared on my True/Slant blog.

 

Follow John McQuaid on Twitter: www.twitter.com/johnmcquaid

Last week, Israeli commandos boarded a relief ship attempting to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip and, during a clash with pro-Palestinian activists, shot nine people to death. It was an old-fashi...
Last week, Israeli commandos boarded a relief ship attempting to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip and, during a clash with pro-Palestinian activists, shot nine people to death. It was an old-fashi...
 
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KDK0590   39 minutes ago (11:24 PM)
I'm not in the least offended by Helen Thomas' words. She was asked a question as a private citizen, and had the right to respond as she wished. End of story. And it certainly was not "hate speech" by any standard.
Zumabum   2 hours ago (9:54 PM)
The real scandal is the state of journalism in this country. She should have retired 10 years ago, but she offen has been the only person in the room with a set of balls. There is no Palistine unless one is going to be created and all cost should be born by England and France who organized this mess in the first place. Palistine never existed, the people are arabs that speak arabic. Thereis no Palistine language or history using the word Palistine. Palistine is a Roman term. Do a little research.
Jingo   35 minutes ago (11:28 PM)
If you weren't such a Philistine, you might have done a little research yourself and found that the name Palestine comes from Latin word for the Philistines. Philistines were people with their own language and culture who predated the Jews in part of what is now Israel. If I remember, correctly, Abraham had a run-in with a Philistine king named Abimelech when he was immigrating to Canaan. Philistine rule eventually subsided as Israel gained power. And since it's the winners who get to write history, you won't hear much about the Philistines anymore, except as a disparaging term for someone who is uncultured or uninformed.
patyash   15 minutes ago (11:48 PM)
Few corrections my friend. This is a religious conflict between Islam and Jews. If you know about Abraham than you know that Judaism started about 4500 years ago. Islam? 1600 years ago. Jerusalem was established as a Jewish capital 3000 years ago by king David. You are suggesting that the Jews are the winners? after 2000 years of persecution? are you kidding me?
patyash   4 hours ago (7:44 PM)
All of you good people who show such concern when Palestinians are killed by Israeli forces. Do you show the same concern toward other victims? So many Palestinians are killed by their own people. Do you care? Does the media even reporting it? I don't think so. Most of you don't know and don't care about other human being, they gets murdered every day, but who cares? Right? Don't delude yourselves your passion is selective.
lokipuck   2 hours ago (9:46 PM)
How the hell do you know?
patyash   32 minutes ago (11:30 PM)
Lets see how much you know. How many Palestinian got killed in 43 years of conflict? How many civilians the american army killed in Iraq and Afghanistan in 8 years? How much ink did you spend over the hundreds of thousand civilian killed by the american army? Oh, by the way the number of Palestinian killed in 43 years, 7000. look at yourself in the mirror and quit dealing with Israel. You have much work to do in you own home.
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Saad Asim   6 hours ago (6:27 PM)
Whatever your stance is on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, there is no excuse for Israel not releasing ALL the security/journalist videos that they took. Also since it happened in International waters on a Turkish ship, Israel should be the last one with the right to investigate. Either the UN or Turkey should investigate.
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (9:36 PM)
how about Turkey and Israel. Why should the UN be involved. Turkey might hate Israel, but at least they can be a little impartial. The UN lacks any degree of being impartial when it comes to Israel.
lokipuck   2 hours ago (9:47 PM)
Methinks it is YOU who lacks impartiality "when it comes to Israel".
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Acharn   1 hour ago (10:46 PM)
"Turkey might hate Israel..." Are you saying you think they DO? Because Turkey has been a good ally to Israel for many years.
bigbubba90210   6 hours ago (6:15 PM)
And for those who are gleeful that Helen Thomas is retiring, consider this simple fact: out of all of the White House reporters (technically she was a columnist, I know) she was the ONLY one to push back, to ask hard questions, and to not just go along and get along.

Whatever one might think of Helen Thomas, her retirement is a loss for all of us.
watches   6 hours ago (6:05 PM)
I disagree. The media, including Huffingtonpost, covered and continues to cover the Flotilla tragedy and its aftermath. However, it is merely another episode in the long and endless saga called the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Helen Thomas's anti-Semitic comments were newsworthy in light of her privileged status in the US media and White House. There are simply too many things to cover right now. North Korea attacked a South Korean submarine which could lead to "All Out War". Then we have the Beyond Petroleum incident playing out in the Gulf. Then we have war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Then we have economic crisis, as well as congressional response to it. There's still the Haiti tragedy, as well as Darfur. I think the Israeli-Palestinian issue is adequately covered by the media. Unfortunately, the issue will be unresolved until the Palestinians have a leadership who is accepted by the Palestinian people, and who is willing to negotiate with Israelis towards a two state solution.
Ramart   4 hours ago (8:23 PM)
What was "anti-Semitic" about her comments? Thomas was merely blurting out a facetious prescription for one way to end an intractable, six-decade-long, continually compounding and seemingly unresolvable dilemma of hatred and defensiveness that threatens the safety and security of Palestinian and Israeli alike, not to mention the stability of the entire region. Obviously, nobody's going to "go back" to anywhere, but Thomas' bigger point seemed to be that both sides appear locked perennially and pepetually in a conundrum of the highest order. My guess is she spoke out of frustrated passion, not bigotry or animus.
Ramart   4 hours ago (8:26 PM)
Make that "perpetually..."
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (9:39 PM)
Some of the liberals on here make a lot of good sense. You are included. There are a ton of much bigger issues going on in the world, and the media (which does lean left) gives a disproportionate amount of coverage towards Israel. There are numerous conflicts around the world that deserve far more attention and coverage - in my opinion the countries RESPONSIBLE for these situations like having Israel to scapegoat because it diverts attention from what they are doing wrong.
lokipuck   2 hours ago (9:49 PM)
You are wrong again on multiple counts.
phillossifer   7 hours ago (5:09 PM)
media needed someone to destroy, and they do it all time. yet, media doesn't mention, although bloggers did, the attack on an American ship that killed American sailers. Oh, yes, our ship din't have id right, or did it.
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:06 PM)
Wow, you people never stop bringing that up. Where is all the concern about the US dropping a bomb on the Chinese embassy in Serbia during the Clinton reign. There's another irrelevant issue you liberals can apologize for.
hezrez   2 hours ago (10:20 PM)
the media didn't destroy Helen Thomas, she did it to herself.

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brantl   8 hours ago (4:32 PM)
It's only deeply offensive if you read a bunch of crap into it. Helen was speaking from the perspective of someone who knows that the Israelis claim that they have to build in conquered lands because of their population pressure; Helen also knows that keeping land taken in war is a crime in international law. If the Israelis can't find enough land to live on currently without taking more land from the indigenous natives, then they should emigrate. Shouldn't they? The first land that was taken from the Palestinians, for the Israelis, wasn't a choice on the part of the Palestinians, nor was it a reasonable choice that they should become a second-class minority in a land invested with settlers who had no claim to the land, either.
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ItsAD   7 hours ago (4:39 PM)
A lot of the posters on here would appear to argue that the first land was taken from the Israelis, by the Romans. So it's actually fair. Or something.
LibertyJusticeEarth   7 hours ago (5:06 PM)
Didn't the Israelites (according to the Talmud) take it from the Caananites?

There has to be SOME statute of limitations. You can't expect Israeli children born after 1948 to move to Germany. But the Zionists did actively seek to establish a Jewish homeland in an already existing country called Palestine. Israeli denials of THAT injustice give credence to Hamas. And Hamas terrorism gives credence to the ultra-nationalist Israelis. And their raid on a shiip in international waters gives more credence to Hamas. And the circle goes on. Helen didn't help anything. Too bad - I used to admire her.
retromega   7 hours ago (5:12 PM)
Yes they argue that but they have, obviously, not read "The Bible" which details an incredible orgy of 'the chosen people' slaughtering any one who gets in the way of their God's commandments that they should kill anyone who stands in their way!

I know its hard to argue that "god", or "the God", or whatever name you give to him of her, has not told you to do any number of heinous crimes.

It appears that the State of Israel thinks it is still protected by their "God" however the y spell or write it. It also appears they belive their divine voice has singled out, at least for now, anyone who opposes the policies of the current government of Israel!
loupbouc   5 hours ago (7:25 PM)
ItsAD

In 1945, Palestinians were the native occupants of the land claimed now by Zionist Israel. Palestinians were the native occupants in 1920, when the British Mandate submitted to Zionist pressure and permitted the beginning of a Zionist invasion of Palestine.

In the second half of the first 100 years after Christ, the Romans expelled the Jews from Palestine. About 650 AD, Palestine became Arab Muslim land, and for 13 centuries (except a brief period of the 12th Century, when, TEMPORARILY, Europeans took some land), Palestine remained Arab Muslim territory — till 1920, when the Zionist invasion began.
davkaman   7 hours ago (5:33 PM)
Sorry, but your argument is less than cogent. The Israelis UNILATERALLY withdrew from Gaza in 2005: the withdrawal was a good thing, the unilateral way in which it was done was not. But it is hard to square this fact with your argument that they are "keeping land." The WEST BANK, is another story. Tout court, Israel should indeed withdraw from the conquered territories, and the occupation is indeed illegal under the terms of international law. That being 'settled,' I would like to know what makes brantl or any of us comfortable enough with OUR dispossession of the indigenous population on the territory that is now the USA, that he/they feel justified in condemning Israelis while being entirely sang froid and forgiving or oblivious about our own nasty historical inheritance. Is it because it was too long ago to count? If so, please provide the statute of limitations on that. I smell hypocrisy.
loupbouc   4 hours ago (7:49 PM)
davkaman

Zionist Jews are keeping all Israel unjustly. They are keeping much illegally, too, since they hold or control much Palestinian land beyond the Palestine portion the 1947 UN allocated to Zionist Jews (allocated it to Zionist Jews much because the British Mandate had done so, already, illegally, in the period 1921-1946).
isthatso   4 hours ago (7:53 PM)
Because two wrongs, do not make a right, it is time for all this to end!
love u   8 hours ago (4:14 PM)
Go Helen. Stop sending billions of money to Isreal.
patyash   52 minutes ago (11:10 PM)
The billions you are talking about represent 2% of Israel GDP. We can live fine without it. However you may want to check on the billions Egypt is getting every year as a reward for signing a peace agreement with Israel.
handyallen1   8 hours ago (4:00 PM)
nine people murdered by israel and were suppose to shut up ..HELL NO
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:10 PM)
If they had just sunk the boat you'd have more to complain about right?
Israel   10 hours ago (1:50 PM)
"The Washington media universe may not have set a new speed record here for spinning itself, Tasmanian devil-style, from grave and difficult to trivial and ironic."

It is the furthest thing from "trivial and ironic" that an establishment journalist who has been anti-Israel for decades has finally admitted the truth - that she is actually anti-Semitic and advocates ethnic cleansing! How many other "objective journalists" share her hopes and dreams of a Judenrein Israel? This is important information, it's the furthest thing from trivial.
Nwo2012   8 hours ago (3:37 PM)
Occupied Palestine. Not Israel.
NonConforming   8 hours ago (4:05 PM)
Actually the occupying Roman Army renamed the territory "Palestine" in 125 AD.
The Arabs that live in the region migrated from Arabia in the 7th and 8th centuries.
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:11 PM)
no, there is no country called Palestine in existence, sorry to break the bad news to you, your professors were wrong
an   8 hours ago (4:18 PM)
please, no nazi references. helen thomas in no way advocated for the murder of jews. what she said was the land belonged to the palestinians. israel's only right to the land comes from stories in an old book, and their (and the usa's) military might. yes palestine was under the imperial reign of britain before, but replacing one colonizing power with another is not exactly just. now the way she said it was blunt and unthought out, but how many times have all of us said blunt or worse things, it just so happened that a guy with a phone camera or something caught what she said. but anyway, that's not the point of the above article. the point is, that the whole helen thomas affair is a side story. the real story is the flotilla, and what's going on, on the ground in israel and gaza. the link to Beinart's peice is very informative, and i suggest you read it.
bigbubba90210   6 hours ago (5:58 PM)
What Helen said was ridiculously stupid and offensive, but were mere words. She didn't shoot people, including shooting a person four times in the head and shooting people in the back (which usually indicates a person is trying to flee, not fight). She's not the one who brought international outrage over Israel's illegal acts of piracy and killing. She played into the hands of a person recording her with a smartphone. Israel played into the hands of those who simply want to point out just how badly Israel is keeping 1.5 million human beings hostage in an apartheid state.

Helen hasn't starved anyone, nor has she left hundreds of thousands malnourished. She didn't decimate the infrastructure and economy of over a million human beings. She's not preventing said human beings from rebuilding their infrastructure and economy. She's not running an illegal blockade. And she's never committed war crimes (think white phosphorous, for starters).

I'll go out on a limb and say that you are concerned about Israel's security. You should be. Perhaps you might consider that Israel is destroying itself in order to save itself. Perhaps, instead of feeling triumphant over "exposing" Helen Thomas for the horned fiend she must be, you might take a less myopic view.

PS - Either you don't know the meaning of the term ethnic cleansing, as you'd like to use it, or you just had a knee jerk reaction and didn't listen to what Helen actually said. Try harder next time...
loupbouc   4 hours ago (7:54 PM)
Israel (1:50 PM)

Helen Thomas is not anti-Semitic (and is, herself, a Semite). She opposes Zionism, Zionist Israel, and Zionist Israel's state-terrorism.

Rightly, justly, Helen Thomas meant:

* All Palestinian land ought to be returned to Palestinians—all the land psychopath Zionist Jews stole from Palestinians, stole with massive terrorism.

* The Middle East deserves being rid of the terrorist Israeli state that, for more than 60 years, has committed mass murder, mass criminal mayhem, mass criminal property-destruction, mass criminal dislocations, mass criminal land-grabs, and more than several criminal besiegings against Palestinian Arab peoples and against Lebanon’s people.

* The Middle East deserves being rid of terrorist Zionist Israel, established with massacres and assassinations of many hundreds of Palestinians and house-burnings and other terrorist tactics that took expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes and homeland.
albant   10 hours ago (1:42 PM)
How easy it is to start a shootout against an icon like Helen Thomas. Her remarks of course could spark a discussion (wich is badly needed in fact). But those fanatic critics of Mrs. Thomas should also take a look at what murdering unarmed pacific people means. It seems that an elder woman is more dangerous than a batallion of trained brainwahed special forces soldiers. If so, something is terribly wrong.

Thank you Mrs. Thomas for your courage to say what a very few dare to.
Thank you Mrs. Thomas for being the conciousness of a crazy mass media.
Thank you for countless years of honesty and ethics.

Your seat shoud remain empty from now on.
Nobody else deserves such a honor.

God bless you.

Albant, Caracas, Venezuela.
Israel   10 hours ago (2:00 PM)
"But those fanatic critics of Mrs. Thomas should also take a look at what murdering unarmed pacific people means."

Or maybe they should look at Palestinians detonating buses and taking kindergarten kids hostage.
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ItsAD   8 hours ago (4:26 PM)
Israel, you never see individual Palestinians. You never see the mothers, the old men, the children. You don't see the young men and women who aren't violent. You only see the few men who are.

It's not black and white. Don't try to make it black and white. You can't.
There is hatred and violence both sides. Own up to it.

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brantl   7 hours ago (4:38 PM)
Maybe if they stopped starving the Palestinians, they wouldn't have reason to hate Israel? Just food for thought, something you seldom seem to do.
renitaa   10 hours ago (2:12 PM)
how about thank you Martin luther King or Thank you Ghandi or Thank you Rosa Parks or thank you israel. These are all people who stood up to people who wanted them to die or didn't think they had the right to exist. That is courage. Helen might have been courageous in the past but her recent words were nothing more then a rant of hatred. Hate does not take courage. It takes courage to hold your hate. That is courage. Israel stood by for months and years while their children were killed just for eating pizza or just for praying or just going to school. 4000 missles fired in civilian territory and yet all they did was say...we won't kill you but we will stop you getting material to build more. That is not wrong. It is nothing less then anyone else would do if your children would were being killed.
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ItsAD   8 hours ago (4:31 PM)
Lol I read your first sentence and that song from Sesame Street started playing in my head:

"One of these things is not like the others,
one of these things just doesn't belong.
Can you guess which thing is not like the others
before I finish my song?"

Please. Israel stood by for months and years? Israel never killed civilians in the Gaza strip? You don't know your history very well, do ya?

There's hatred and violence on both sides. Everyone is guilty. Own up to it.
bigbubba90210   6 hours ago (6:07 PM)
They're called Qassam rockets, not the missiles (or whatever a missles is, to use your word) you referenced. And they're highly inaccurate, and have killed relatively few. Israel's MISSILES are always deadly, and always cause collateral damage.

Courage on the part of the Israelis would be to withdraw from the West Bank and acknowledge an independent Palestine state, and help that independent state to rebuild its infrastructure and economy. Keeping 1.5 million people in an apartheid state, which is what Israel is currently doing, is the antithesis of courage. It is, quite simply, cowardice. And, every day it continues Israel loses more and more of it's "moral authority."
loupbouc   3 hours ago (9:09 PM)
renitaa

You are hallucinating.
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:20 PM)
Not a surprise. I've been to Caracas and lived there for awhile to boot. I am very aware of your great leader Chavez and his views towards Israel. Also how he has destroyed your economy, you were one of the only South American countries to have a GDP go down last year, and how kidnappings and violent crime have skyrocketed. I love how I got hustled by your "military" at random checkpoints for money, and how the corrupt police harassed the citizens. It was great hearing gunshots all night and talking to the opposition - hearing how Chavez has taken away any form of private enterprise that dares oppose him. He has disastrously tried to re-distribute wealth. Also great how your great leader Chavez is working with the Iranians, who subject their women to horrible conditions and kill people who want democracy. Maybe you should look at your own country - which I know is sympathetic to the Palestinians because you have some twisted way of believing your two revolutions are similar. The attempted coup of your government was wrong, but that doesn't mean you should sympathize with terrorists.
Proisraelsowhat   11 hours ago (1:23 PM)
This is not news but an anti-israel rant. yea yea Mana will fall from the heavens and world peace will exist once israel is destroyed. I heard this once before from a German guy in the 1940's. His name was Adolf. Give me a break. The amount of food going into Gaza is higher now then when Israel really did control the strip. The markets in southern and northern Gaza are filled with food. I have been their. The problem is not the blockade but the lack of jobs. This is not israel's fault. The fault is the palestinians have been taught only two basic things how to hate jews and how to kill them. Not much jobs for that right now. May be thats why they want war and not peace. Oh yea and since when do peace activities have guns, knives and steel pipes. Reuters admited to doctoring photos just to inflame the situation. Lets have a little truth hear instead of just anti - israel rants by nazi party members who are still upset they lost the last world war.
Israel   10 hours ago (1:44 PM)
Fanned and favorited.

Her historical ignorance is breath-taking. Yeah, all Jews are from Europe. I'll go tell my Israeli wife that - she's already third generation, but her entire family came from Yemen.
wadda   7 hours ago (5:12 PM)
give it a rest, buddy.
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:26 PM)
Another comment I found that is pro-Israel, sticks to the facts, yet is flagged as "abusive". I guess the pattern I am finding is that you can say the most vicious anti-semitic things you want on this site, but if you dare defend a Jew or israel - especially with fact - then your comment is "abusive"
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pooka   2 hours ago (9:58 PM)
Hopefully saner minds will eventually prevail. Here are a few groups who are working for justice and peace.

Jews For Justice For Palestinians
http://jfjfp.com/

European Jews For a Just Peace
http://www.ejjp.org/

The Institute For Middle East Understanding
http://imeu.net/news/article0019199.shtml

Jews Against the Occupation and Jews Against Racist Zionism
http://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/jews-against-the-occupation-

Philadelpha Justice For Palestine
http://www.phillypalestine.org/

Jewish Friends of Palestine--many links to other organizations
http://www.jewishfriendspalestine.org/

This is an article about the ship Rachel Corrie and also includes a list of the things that Israel does not allow into Gaza. No wonder the children of Gaza are so malnourished.
http://imeu.net/news/article0019187.shtml
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:25 PM)
don't you love how anything pro-Israel here is flagged as "abusive"
loupbouc   2 hours ago (10:32 PM)
mountaingrub

Funny. I've found the opposite true here. (Also, that's just what happened to Helen Thomas.)
FR713   11 hours ago (12:44 PM)
Palestine is a fiction. It was never a country. Jews occupied the area of Israel at least 1,000 years prior to the establishment of the "Arab World"...following WWII no country would accept Jewish refugees....that speaks volumes about the inhumanity of the time..Libya and Egypt expelled Jews, as did other Islamic Countries and seized the assets of the dispossessed.. It is estimated that the land seized by Islamic countries from Jews during the period is more than 4 times the area of Israel....What about the assets stolen by the Islamic thugs...don't you folks know anything of history....Arab countries including Turkey were aligned with Germany in WWI...Syria, Iran and Iraq were taken from Turkey and others were created following WWI later Iran and other middle eastern Islamic countries supported Germany during WWII...ever heard of the term "Farhud" (Arabic means "violent dispossession") was a violent pogrom against the Jews of Baghdad, Iraq on June 1-2, 1941.....Ever heard of the Arab-Israeli conflict in 1948...Israel was established by UN action to stop the conflict...Ever heard of the term "Kafir" this is the term in the Koran that refers to non Islamic persons...according to the Koran you can kill, steal from or enslave a "Kafir"...most of America's slaves originated from Black Islamic slave traders It still is practiced today in Africa...Ever heard of Sharia law...Israel is been invaded in at least three major conflicts since its establishment.
libran123   8 hours ago (4:03 PM)
Add in the word dhimmi - refers to its non-Islamic embracing population that has the ignominious dishonor of living in Islamic conquered lands. In a similar manner to the Jewish reference to a non-Jew as being a goy, so too the term dhimmi refers to non-Muslims. However unlike the Jewish term, goy, and much more important, the dhimmi is a distinctly subjugated second class non-citizen almost slave who is subjected to dictatorial deprivation of any legal and human rights since he is a non-Muslim permanent resident in a Muslim state.
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:23 PM)
by the way your comment is not abusive, you are stating facts and people here flag them as abusive
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Simon Woodward   7 hours ago (4:54 PM)
Arab Countries including Turkey???? Don't think Turkey has ever been arab - read up on your history of the Eastern Mediterranean please - suggest Sir John Julius Norwich's book 'The Middle Sea'. The world already was enough ignorant Americans - try not to add to the list
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Simon Woodward   7 hours ago (5:10 PM)
sorry - should have said 'has enough ignorant....'
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:23 PM)
is now, read today's paper
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mountaingrub   2 hours ago (10:24 PM)
Your comment is not abusive. People here hate to hear facts. The Islamics were the main people behind the slave trade. Ironic considering how many American blacks are in the Nation of Islam.
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