Raymond Ibrahim: the Islamic supremacist mega-mosque at Ground Zero is making people talk about Islam

In "Why the Ground Zero Mosque is Counterproductive to the Islamist Cause" in Pajamas Media (via RaymondIbrahim.com), August 4, our old friend and former Jihad Watch colleague Raymond Ibrahim finds a silver lining in the capitulation to Islamic supremacism that is the Ground Zero mega-mosque:

While vexing to many, the mega mosque set to be built two blocks from Ground Zero has produced one interesting but unintended consequence: like the 9/11 strikes a decade before it, the "9/11 mosque" is also creating a stir, is making people think and talk -- about Islam.

Consider: Before the Islamist strikes of 9/11, mainstream America was incognizant of the threat posed by radical Islam. Islamic apologetics and anti-U.S. polemics were unquestioned orthodoxy, not only in their natural habitat -- academia -- but more generally.

After 9/11, however, the veil was partially lifted: a flood of books dealing with Islam, political Islam, jihad, sharia, "dhimmitude," and any number of related topics appeared; politically incorrect books on Islam became bestsellers. The media began at least to acknowledge the existence of radical Islam; biased and politicized academics were exposed and refuted.

In other words, one of the unintended consequences of 9/11 was that more Americans began to take note and interest in Islam -- which led to greater scrutiny of its formerly esoteric epistemology. After 9/11, it was no longer a few aging Orientalists who knew, for instance, that military jihad is obligatory in Islam, or that enmity for the infidel is standard, or that women and dhimmis are subjugated. The layman -- the heart of democracy -- began to be aware. In this sense, then, the 9/11 strikes were counterproductive to the Islamist cause.

All Islamists, of course, desire what jihadist groups like al-Qaeda desire -- the reestablishment of a global caliphate and enforcement of sharia law. But unlike al-Qaeda, most mature Islamists know that the time is not ripe for all-out violence, which only exposes their activities to greater scrutiny. In fact, Islamists have long found it more expedient to "destroy Western civilization from within," necessitating projects such as the Middle East Forum's Islamist Watch, which monitors and exposes subversive, nonviolent Islamist machinations on U.S. soil.

Yet if one of the unintended consequences of 9/11 was to place the spotlight on Islam, ten years later, one of the unintended consequences of the 9/11 mosque is the same: Since it became known, the mosque project has been reported by all mainstream media, including CBS, CNN, Examiner, Fox News, Al Jazeera, NY Daily News, New York Times, Reuters, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Washington Times, ad infinitum....

Read it all.

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I pointed this out in a National Post comment section. I mentioned that Mo/allah commanded that muslims leave their qu'ran's at home when they travel in infidel nations. By allowing the qu'ran to be translated and understood muslims have undermined their own homicidal plans. I especially like using the tri-translated USC site with all the official mo/allah books of hate for use against taqiyya spewing muslims. But that GZ mosk is the real kicker... A true beacon of bacon that is material proof of the lie of 'cultural relativism'...

"..the Islamic supremacist mega-mosque at Ground Zero is making people talk about Islam."

Let's talk about Islam! (video)

Islam cannot be spread without violence or intimidation. Since violence is swiftly prosecuted in the U.S., the only effective measure left for the dawa (missionary) campaign is intimidation. Mega-mosques are intimidating because they dwarf the nearby churches and synagogues, implying superiority of Islam. Allah doesn't care whether people become Muslim voluntarily or by force because he really doesn't care about people as long as everyone submits (from the Islamic viewpoint, returns) to him. (See Surah 3:83)

muslims cannot ever BUY enough "good" press to cover this mess up!!

Plus that deep cover CIA " NYC imam" might find that he is in danger from radicals in those ME countries he will visit on behalf of Hillary C.

MANY People who were on the fence about islam(e) being a religion are getting off the fence and getting pretty angry about his mega-insult mosque at GZ!

Even a lady at my church is who is "Ms. caspar milktoast" in person is "HIGHLY ANNOYED". She was so upset with the NYC govt. and mayor, that she changed her vacation plans and is now going to "Amish county" in Ohio and Pa. to buy antiques and quilts. WOOHOO.

I was shocked to hear her say anything bad about the islamics. I believed her to be brainwashed(or braindead).


mr. islamic empire.... hey you out there, ya'll shot yurSelves in the foot, head, gut or nuts on this GZ mosque!

Good!! You needed that big time!

Islam can be judged by it's actions alone.

"..the Islamic supremacist mega-mosque at Ground Zero is making people talk about Islam."

Such talk should be encouraged and promoted at every opportunity.

Making the American public aware of this 'in your face' issue in particular, and of Islam in general, creates a better informed population and makes it more difficult for Muslims and their apologists to continue the ROP propaganda.

The process of saying your thoughts over a medium like the internet has been a boon to us who speak the truth. It's nice to hear people who share the same thoughts as you do. Truth always wins, especially when you have access to a medium. So, let the liberals fret over how to get their misinformation and half-truths out. I think the internet has been god-send (I'm an agnostic, btw) to us who despise the MSM.

I hope this discussion will include more than just the content of Islam's scriptural texts. It needs to include everything from the dishonest faux-moderation of Islamist apologists for jihadist mass-murder such as Feisal Abdul Rauf, the arrogance of his Islamist ilk who demand consideration, respect and sensitivity from non-Muslims while refusing to extend it to non-Muslims themselves, the disingenuousness of the phony cries of "bigotry" by dhimmi multiculturalist quislings who turn a blind eye to the arguments of the Muslim opponents of the Ground Zero mosque, etc., etc.

Let it ALL out. Let it ALL be seen and discussed...

Personally I prefer the Rodwell version, especially the preface makes it very clear what Rodwell thought of the writing and the confused perverted thought process behind it.

As Abe Lincoln said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

And when most of the people wake up to what Islam is really all about, it will be closing time for the most vicious, immoral ideology of all time.

Become an instant expert on Islam and hold your own in any conversation: http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/everything-you-need-to-know-about-islam.html

"our old friend and former Jihad Watch colleague Raymond Ibrahim"

When did Raymond leave Jihad Watch and why? Why "old" friend? So he and Spencer had a falling out? Please explain. Thanks!

I had the same reaction Mohammed must have had in Hell when I heard of the Ground Zero Mosque proposal: "what a bunch of idiots." The greatest impediment to stealth jihad is educating the enemy of the danger. Don't these fools realize that? Are they that greedy for personal honors in heaven?

Prior to 9/11 I thought the Muslim-Israeli conflict was all an ancient property ownership dispute. Boring and not worth an Internet search. Right after 9/11 I (and probably millions of others) did a search and came up with quranic verses and Khomeini quotes that I recall remarking to my co-workers HAD to be a prank. Today a row of my bookshelf is middle-east history and Islam.

I hope more useful idiots like this guy try to build more "interfaith dialogue centers" on the graves of innocent infidels. Makes me think of Admiral Yamamoto following the attack on Pearl Harbor and his remark about "Waking a sleeping giant."

For years we've been hearing that islamic terror against innocent Westerners is "blowback" from our own foriegn policy. This is garbage, of course, but now the overreaching supremacist Rauf and the even more despicable Daisy are on the receiving-end of some genuine blowback, American-style.

Simply put, they blew it. They couldn't control their longing, their yearning for this supremacist symbol on "conquered ground." But now they're a national and world-issue; there's no more stealth in their little jihad.

Even IF they do get their dirty supremacist mosque, it's already a tainted entity; it will forever (and rightfully) be the subject of anger, suspicion and revulsion, as will those who enabled it.

Nice going, Rauf! Perhaps your next book can be entitled, "What's Wrong With Feisal is What's wrong with America." Meanwhile, your "Cordoba House" is already covered with shame. The ejection-seat is that red button on the right, Feisal...

Thank you, Rabbi Ray. I agree, and I have posted here before that the GZM will be a great source of negative attention for Islam, as it unwittingly commemorates and identifies the ideological source of the 9/11 attack.
But the chutzpah of those guys! It's amazing! But then I guess they're just emulating al-insan al-kamil, aka Mohammad, who was not exactly Mr. Humble Pie.

Raymond's logic implies a 'disconnect' between stealth jihad and violent jihad. But such a logic would ignore the mountain of information post-911 that indicates that Islamic violence, by a perverse paradox, actually strengthens the PC MC defenses of, and 'respect' for, Islam. This perversely paradoxical effect operates on both sides -- by cunning, one would reasonably expect, on the side of Muslims using a 'Good Cop/Bad Cop' tactic; and by a complex paradigm of political correctness on our side by which we facilitate being serially duped by the Muslim 'Good Cops'.

Raymond's logic also ignores the fact that Islam has always spread violently and there is no evidence pointing to any grand and historically unprecedented shift in jihad strategy. The rule is set in stone: Muslims conduct jihad non-violently on a parallel track to violent jihad, whenever and wherever their relative degree of weakness necessitates it. The instant Muslims perceive themselves to be sufficiently strong, they slaughter. They only don't slaughter when they think they can't (or, of course, when their own sociopolitical deficiencies require the talents & tax extortion of a dhimmi population to maintain society).

But, as my first paragraph indicates, even in a situation where they think they can't, they proceed in a complex two-track strategy that combines violence and stealth: the 'Bad Cops' get to enjoy the fun of slaughtering Infidels, while the 'Good Cops' have to go about the business of smiling and lying to those same Infidels, in order to facilitate the grand infiltration and invasion of Muslims into the West. And far from detracting from the deceptions of the 'Good' Stealth Muslims, the violence of the 'Bad' Muslims, as I said, has been perversely facilitating the Stealth Jihad.

Part of the perverse paradox involves Western gullibility, more or less informed (or deformed) by PC MC: The more that the 'bad' Muslims kill, the more the Westerner anxiously seeks out the nice decent Muslims he is sure must exist: and thus the infiltration of millions of Muslims proceeds, over the decades, and perversely and paradoxically only increasing with the escalation of Islamic terrorism post-911.

Certainly, there has been a growing nucleus of people graduating slowly on the learning curve about the danger of Islam over the past decade -- but the progress of that both in terms of numbers and influence in the West at large has been dismally, oftentimes infuriatingly, incremental. There is obviously an enormous retardant counter-influence in Western culture, which remains dominant and mainstream. The nature of its effects in this regard is complex.

To appreciate all this, one would need to move from the relatively simplex and unsubtle level on which Raymond is analyzing the situation.

People may be talking about Islam but it doesn't seem to matter. So what if the press is doing innumerable stories about it? Many of the stories talk in derisive tones about those Americans who want to stop the mosque from being built. The media is not facing up to the threat posed by sharia. To do so might validate the positions of people like Sarah Palin. American reporters would rather wear a burkha than say something positive about a conservative position. Better to portray those who oppose the mosque as narrow-minded or intolerant.

Hesperado -- What do you think the effect of the growing negative publicity about the 9/11 mosque will be on the non-violent/violent balance of the jihad? If there is a growing resistance to mosque-building and a pushback against muslim influence because of it, will that likely result in an increase in violent attacks? The logical response for them would seem to be to make a show of backing down and being conciliatory, but so far they are not doing that. At this point in the controversy, it seems that jihad attacks would just increase the outrage and scrutiny of muslims in the US. Are they likely to realize this? Will they continue to dig in their heels and push for the mega-mosques and count on the degree of influence the islamists have acquired at political levels to back them up?

I knew the screw was turning when just about the most liberal (and I mean loony Left) person in the administration at the college where I teach said back this Spring that there's something really wrong about Islam. This "mosque project" will only futher expose even to most of the most dense that Islam is bad news for freedom, democracy, real graciousness (i.e., the Golden Rule for all), equality under the law, women's rights, gay rights and the right to criticize anything without being barraged with death threats by rabid true believers. Amazing that this Rauf joker couldn't see this, but then, in microcosm, this proves that Islam is its own worst enemy. Islam's own agenda will do it in eventually. Good. Islam so deserves this. Yes, the screw is turning.

In addition to getting people to talk about Islam, I hope this project gets people to take a long, hard look at Sa'udi Arabia, which banned the comforts of non-Muslim religion to the allied soldiers who defended it; frankly promotes hatred and supremacism towards non-Muslims in its educational program; and treats guest workers (at least dark-skinned ones) like dirt.

Now, Grungyoldvan, I'm curious to know where you got the tidbit on Muslims being told to leave the Qu'ran at home. I've had Muslims as fellow grad students, and saw them reading the Qu'ran. I myself have read the Yusef Ali, Dawood, and Pickthall translations in English; and have even seen the Chinese version. I doubt that any Muslim can doubt that the contents of the Qu'ran and Hadith are there for anyone to examine them.

Yes, I'm aware that the "real" Qu'ran is in Arabic. But as a Christian, I believe that the "real" Old Testament is in Hebrew and Aramaic, and the "real" New Testament is in Greek--although I have no qualms about able and devout translators making the Scriptures available to those who dodn't read the original languages; and would admit that those who study a good translation of the Bible get accurate knowledge thereof.

Well, I'm getting ready for bed. I'll also say a prayer that as knowledge of Islam becomes more public, many more people will see how there are very real differences between Christianity and Islam, despite the common "Abrahamic" monniker.


you wrote - "...Makes me think of Admiral Yamamoto following the attack on Pearl Harbor and his remark about "Waking a sleeping giant."

Or, to turn to fiction, the Hogwarts motto : Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus'...'[a] sleeping dragon [ought] not to be tickled'.


thanks for telling the story of how you came to discover the Awful Truth about Islam.

You may like to hear a 'how I got here' story from another jihadwatcher - one 'reacher', hailing from Scotland.

Here it is, as it originally appeared in a thread entitled 'Tar Heel Jihad' (about North Caroline converts to Islam who were caught plotting jihad). The comments to that were made in Intensedebate and therefore did not 'roll over' when we returned to using Typepad. But fortunately I had kept copies of everything I found interesting.

Reacher said: "Hello DDA, you asked me on another thread how I found my way here.

"Don't laugh, but it was Anjem Choudary {particularly obnoxious and in-your-face jihad preacher in the UK - dda} who pointed me here.

'I googled him after a particularly vile rant and it led me to Dhimmi Watch- hence here. {God bless google ! - dda}.

'I then went into Glasgow and bought myself a Koran to see [AND] read for myself,

'I must admit that I couldn't make much sense of it ( at the time) and layed it down. I remember thinking to myself " Did I buy the right thing? " **because what I had just finished reading was not a Holy Book but a gangsters murder manual.** {my emphasis - dda}.

'I was flabbergasted that every thing I had ever been taught since a child was a sin was condoned and applauded in this terrible book. I put it in the bin the next morning.

'An English lady who used to post here as Granny Weatherwax ( Esmeralda ) pointed me to New English Review and the rest is history.

'I have learned so much from the brilliant and erudite people here...". END.

Above, I re-posted another jihadwatcher's account of how his (or her?) education began: by googling a vile Islamic preacher, in order to see what might come up, and by obtaining and reading a Qur'an.

I will now re-post something from another long-term jihadwatch forum contributor, which I think bears directly on what Mr Ibrahim has just said.

"It is a pity [for Muslims - dda] that Muslims decided to come to the West, and then tried to force the Islamic agenda on Westerners.

"**The default position of the West is to critically examine any idea or thought that comes before it.** {my emphasis - dda}.

"This examination, particularly by Robert Spencer, has led to the revelation of what the Koran and Hadiths constitute, and the thoughts, actions, and the depravity of the founder of Islam.

"Public interest in Islam as a consequence of 9/11, has led all this to become public knowledge, where previously it was the preserve of scholars.

"A case in point - the Crusades are now regarded [by some, not yet by all westerners - dda], and correctly so, as a desperate defence of Christians and Christian lands, from repeated and eventually successful Muslim invasion.

"None of what we see now would have happened if Muslims had not come to the West, or just lived like Hindus and others.

"Now the cat is out of the bag.

"The perverted nature of Mohammed has been revealed.

"Inevitably, this has led to the caricature of Mohammed,

"and given his lamentable character, ridicule.

"And not just to Westerners, but also to tens of millions of Muslims, who otherwise would have continued to be good Muslims.

"But now they know. And no matter what they do, the seeds of doubt have been planted in Muslim minds, even in Muslim nations.

"None of the contempt of Mohammed and ridicule heaped on him would have happened if Muslims had stayed in Muslim lands. Islam would still have had respect in the West, born of ignorance albeit, and Muslims in Muslim lands, would have been content in ignorance as well.

"The problem for Muslims now is how to wipe out the contempt, caricature and ridicule that have been heaped on Mohammed. This is what this fatwa [concerning the Muhammad cartoons - dda] is about. There are only a couple of choices

"1. Accept reality. In which case the caricature, ridicule etc, stand for posterity.

"2. Fight back. The only way the caricature and ridicule etc can be expunged is for Muslims to conquer the Western world, and make it Islamic.

"Then and only then, will Mohammed's honour be avenged, and the shame erased.

"Of course, the last means that Muslims will have to conquer the West with bloodshed. Unlikely.

"It is more likely that the reverse will happen. Islam will then be erased.

" If OTHH they don't do anything, the canker of contempt etc, will sit there in the Islamic world, and eventually destroy Islam. This is the dilemma that Muslims have put themselves in.

"Hard choice.

"Posted by: DP111 at August 15, 2007 5:29 PM". END.

And as a companion piece to that posting, and to Mr Ibrahim's article, I will re-post Hugh Fitzgerald's brilliant 'History Boys' essay.

'Fitzgerald: the Unsung History Boys'.


I commend it to every non-Muslim person here, whether now as I type or reading my words at any time in the foreseeable future, who may not yet have read it.

I refer to Infidel#1 regarding the truth. We have to keep exposing the perfidies of Islam relentlessly.

“The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.”
- Winston Churchill.


I hope I'm wrong, but this is my prediction about the effect of the Ground Zero Mosque on the whole problem:

Only a ragtag collection of public figures will limply oppose it in op-eds and in Yahoo news quotes and on occasional round-table TV shows.

The mosque will be built.

A smattering of two or three thousand people will publically demonstrate against it on site, perhaps a few times during construction and on opening day (meanwhile millions of New Yorkers -- not to mention millions of other Americans -- will churn away in their daily lives ignoring it).

The whole thing will become one more blip, like 911, London, Madrid, Mumbai, and the slings and arrows of outrageous Muslims, the sea of troubles and the thousand natural shocks they are increasingly causing us, will over time become absorbed into our sociopolitico-cultural textures, like a toxin the host body yet has the luxury to ignore.

Meanwhile, we will continue allowing Muslims to infiltrate, sowing the seeds for horrific consequences in the next 50 to 100 years.

These horrific consequences will have two waves: the first will decimate millions of us, destroy untold infrastructure and cause dislocations of our societies.

The second wave will begin as the West finally wakes up. At that point all Muslims will be rounded up and deported, then forced to remain in the Dar-al-Islam. Not because we have "become like them". Only because at that point we will, almost tragically too late, realize that is the only thing we can do to preserve our societies from Muslims. That solution, of course, will also be a massive military operation reflecting an alliance of Western nations. But even then, after a half century or more of stupidity whereby we ourselves have added insult to the injuries Muslims will have inflicted on us, we will remain capable, for we are light years beyond Muslims on all levels measurable in terms of human advancement.

correction: "publicly"


is it practically possible for you - work-wise, money-wise, time-wise, health-wise - to attend the rally that SIOA is planning for September 11 this year, in New York City?

If so: *do you intend to attend that rally*?

And if not, why not?

*I* simply cannot be there: I live in Australia and the family budget is such that to travel to the USA would be simply impossible. I wish I could. I'd be there waving an Aussie flag and a placard with the names of the eleven Australians who were murdered there at Ground Zero.

But if you are in America, and if you are not constrained too much by health, or insurmountable and unavoidable work or family commitments, and if you are not too poor to travel to NYC, then I fully expect to read, here at jihadwatch, *your* personal report upon the rally.

If not, *why not?*

Precisely *because*, at the moment, as you contemptuously or despairingly observe, 'a smattering of two or three thousand people will publicly demonstrate', it *matters* a lot that every person here who 'gets' why this mosque is so bad, every single person who can make it there on the day should be there, among that 'two or three thousand'.

If it is practically possible, perhaps even easy, for you to attend the rally, but you grumpily or huffily or gloomily decide to stay away - Mr Spencer's approach not being ideologically pure enough for you - then it is *you* who are helping to make the public rally smaller than it would otherwise be.

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