Progressive Witchcraft: Lilitu Babalon Talks to Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone ©2005TWPT
About this Interview
In January/February 2001 I organised a tour of Australia for Janet Farrar & Gavin Bone which included Sydney - New South Wales, Melbourne - Victoria, Brisbane - Queensland and Canberra - Australian Capital Territory. As part of the tour this interview was conducted at ArtSound FM 92.7 (in Canberra) for my radio program, OzWrite, a program about writers and writing. As both Janet and Gavin are published authors, it fitted in quite well, despite the fact that OzWrite is not a specifically Pagan program, just produced by a Pagan. Parts of the interview appeared in the now defunct Witchcraft Magazine, and in the Australian Church of All Worlds journal, The Emerald Egg of Oz. The following is a transcript of this interview.
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Lilitu Babalon: I thought we would start off talking about the early history
of Wicca inBritain
- the beginnings with Gerald Gardner and a bit later with Alex Sanders. Let’s
start with the way in which Gerald Gardner began the Craft, as we know it
today.
Janet: That’s difficult because it’s hypothesis. There’s no factual
basis, there’s only hypothesis to go on. We believe and I think a lot of other
people out there believe that he actually didn’t really find Witchcraft. He
believed he’d found Witchcraft but you’ve got to remember that during that
period people studying the occult were very upper class. People like ourselves
and your self wouldn’t have had a hope in Hel of being involved in the occult
scene. We are talking of the wealthy; the elite. Gerald had been a tea planter
out in Malaya and when he returned toBritain it was just after the First
World War. You’ve got to remember how many people inEurope
died in the trenches in the 1st WW and
as a result of that there was a revolution going on. People wanted a
spirituality; they’d lost it. So many
people became involved in the occult via things like Rosicrucionism, Theosophy
and so on. It would have appealed to these upper class people. We think
that what Gerald actually found when he
went to theNew Forest when he discovered the
Rosicrucian Theatre, wasn’t a coven of Witches but a group of Theosophists. He
so wanted to believe they were the remnants of an old religion that he actually
said to them, “You are a coven of witches.” I think it’s very possible that
they turned around and said to him, “No, we’re not,” and tried to explain to
him what they were, but he wouldn’t have it.
For Gerald, he really believed this was Witchcraft. Back
then if you read tea leaves it was Witchcraft. If you read the cards it was
Witchcraft. If you dabbled in crystal balls it was Witchcraft. Everything was
labeled Witchcraft. It was certainly known that he really upset them in the
end and so much so they asked him to leave. We always joke that he was the
first Witch ever banished from the Craft.
Gavin: One of the interesting things about the Rosicrucian Theatre, there’s no doubt some of them were
Theosophists. We know that Annie Bessant Smith, a well-known Theosophist at the
time, was involved in the group. There were also people who were part of
another organisation called the Fellowship of Cretona. They’re interesting
because that’s co-Masonry and we believe what they were doing was a Gnostic
Mass where man and woman took an equal part. So you had a priest and a
priestess. Now that would certainly to Gerald Gardner’s mindset, have indicated
there was a form of Witchcraft going on; a balance between the sexes where
women were just as much part of the spirituality as the men. We think that’s
another factor to be taken into account.
Janet: The one woman he talks about who is mentioned a lot in the
history of Gardnerian Witchcraft is Dorothy Clutterbuck. According toGardner, Dorothy ran the coven in theNew
Forest. She was a very, very wealthy woman. During the latter part
of her life, the history of Dorothy Clutterbuck does not make sense if she was
a Witch. She married a man called Rupert Fordham. They’re obviously very in
love with each other. Rupert Fordham is very high up in the Salvation Army. If
you look at the cross on his grave, it’s
a Salvation Army cross. What would a high-ranking gentleman in the
Salvation Army be doing married to a
Witch? On the day he died, he was killed in a car accident, they were on their
way to church. What’s more Dorothy was known because of later diaries that were
discovered about her with nothing to do with Witchcraft in them, that she
worked for the Women’s Guild of the local church. None of it makes sense if she
was a Witch. I think it is possible (and this is purely hypothesis) that she
and Gerald clashed with each other, and that after her death Gerald pointed the
finger at her and made her high priestess of a coven when in actual fact she
was probably a good Christian woman. It was his little tongue in cheek joke.
The interesting thing is, it worked. Whether she ran that coven or not, it
doesn’t matter a damn. What does matter is it inspired him to start a
philosophy, and I prefer to call it a philosophy than a religion - it is not an
old religion, it’s an old philosophy - that has spread and grown and become
very healthy since those days.
Gavin: What we think Gerald Gardner did was create a myth. If you
look at all religions, new religions are based on a myth. Take Christianity,
it’s based on the myth of Jesus Christ, that he was the son of God. Now Christ
was a real figure but a lot of things have been attributed to him which aren’t
true; he’s become mythologised and we think this is what Gardner did
consciously or unconsciously, he realised there needed to be a myth if the new
modern movement of Witchcraft was going to survive. What he didn’t foresee was
what started as a Witchcraft movement, a Wiccan movement, was going to blossom
into a Pagan movement with Wicca being just a small part of it. I don’t think
he saw that at all.
Lilitu: What would he have thought about that do you think?
Gavin: I think he would have been absolutely amazed. I think her
would have been very impressed in the way Wicca has developed.
Janet: Certainly in his lifetime, by the time he met Doreen
Valiente who really was the true mother of Witchcraft, and she started working
on the rituals, because he had very little in the way of rituals, and most of
what he did have was blatantly Christian I hate to say, had nothing again to do
with Paganism. Doreen Valiente started to put the Pagan touches in. Gerald
turned to Doreen and said, “I do not think the Old Religion will survive to the
21st century.” If he lived today he would love what’s happening in the rest of
the world. He would want to join theChurch
ofAll Worlds because for
him, as far as he would be concerned, it would be an ideal place for him to
just be what he wanted to be, a sort of grandfather, elder figure of the Craft.
Lilitu: Really and truly we can say the Craft is 50 to 60 years old,
Gardner
developed it in the beginning.
Gavin: Yes, it’s like the Hare Krishna movement, which started in
the late ‘60s. Yes, it’s modern but by its very nature Paganism must be modern.
It’s an evolving tradition.
Lilitu: Gardner
was there at the right time wasn’t he? What was it that held the craft together
in later years? You were saying earlier that it was just after the 2nd WW;
people were looking for something. Fifty years have passed - what’s kept the
Craft alive?
Gavin: I think it’s a realisation that religion doesn’t have to be
dogmatic. It doesn’t have to be based around a doctrine. One of the things that
happened with the major monotheistic religions, patriarchal religions is they
sunk very quickly into dogma and doctrine which was totally inflexible. Because
of that, they lost their spirituality. What draws people towards Wicca and
modern Paganism is the spirituality; it’s the connection not just with the land
but with everyday life.
In Christianity
you go into church on a Sunday and that’s it - you’re a Christian. It’s like
saying if you go to a garage that makes you a car. It doesn’t. Pagans have
realised it’s in everyday life, that spirituality must be grounded in everyday
life. That’s what attracts people to it.
Also the
mysticism attracts them because a lot of mysticism and mythology is based
around psychology so there is a strong component of a person wanting to find
out things about themselves, which attracts them to Paganism and Witchcraft.
Lilitu: Other people have kept the craft alive, such as Alex
Sanders, Doreen Valiente and yourselves for example.
Janet: The problem I think, with modern Witchcraft, is that to a
certain extent the past has become the be all and end all for some of us, and
that is not the way it should be. InBritain for example, for many
years, no Gardnerian would talk to an Alexandrian, except Doreen Valiente who
did not believe there should be a gulf between us. The reason for that is
Doreen knew the truth. Amongst her possessions were letters from Gerald Gardner
and in there is no doubt he totally accepted Alex Sanders being initiated.
Doreen had those letters in her possession and that’s why she knew there was no
need for a rift between the two sides. Gardner himself, during the time he had
initiated Priestesses, like every single example you find, there had to be a
Witch war. One priestess didn’t get on with another; some priestesses had
run-ins withGardner,
including Doreen Valiente herself.
One of those priestesses, Patricia Crowther had a renegade
priestess, Pat Kapinsky who left Crowther’s coven and went off to work by
herself. During that period Alex Sanders came along. First of all he approached
Pat Crowther. She refused him initiation. Then he approached Pat Kapinsky and
Pat Kapinsky introduced him to a mysterious
woman called Medea. We do not know who Medea was, but we do know thatGardner knew who Medea
was. As a result of that introduction, Alex Sanders was initiated by Medea into
Witchcraft. In his early books, Sanders claimed himself the title King of the
Witches. There are no kings and queens of the Witches and there never have
been. Only the God and Goddess themselves have that title, but Sanders claimed
that and he also claimed that he was initiated by his grandmother at the age of
13 and it was semi-sexual. Well, I’m sorry,
that’s child abuse and it was a blatant lie. Sanders made the story up
because the real truth was he was a Gardnerian initiated by a renegade
Gardnerian. Gerald Gardner himself, I’m not sure if they ever met, certainly
approved of Alex’s initiation so there should never have been a rift in the
first place.
The other thing you find with “old traditional” Gardnerians
and Alexandrians - the Witchcraft they practise tends sometimes to become
stagnant because they do not want to see further. They don’t want to see how
the rest of the world works Witchcraft. The true Magick, the only ancient part
of Witchcraft left today that you will find anywhere in the world is the
Strega, the Italian or Sicilian Strega because they have kept their religion
alive disguised with saints. Anywhere you go in the world if you find a religion
hiding behind saints, you can pretty well guarantee you’re talking of something
which is very, very old. Otherwise, it would not have survived with the impact
of Christianity. You had to be a good Christian and you might be out on the
hills dancing after dark but you had to be in church on Sunday, worshipping
alongside every other Christian. The Italian Strega have always done this.
Gavin: One of the problems that occurred very early on was that
people were trying to practise a Pagan religion but it wasn’t what they were
brought up with culturally. They were still hanging on to Christian morality,
Christian socialisation, norms and values. WhenGardner created the book of shadows, the main
liturgy for Wicca, people saw it as another Bible and it became a sacred book
which it wasn’t supposed to be. For people of the time and even up to the
1980s, brought up on Christian religion, when they were over to Witchcraft and
became interested in it, they saw the book of shadows as another one of the
sacred books such as the Bible, the Torah, the Koran because they were brought
up as children of the book. As time has gone on, this has gone away.
Another problem people ran into was the need for validation;
to claim the way they were working was far older than it really was. There’s
been a lot of social pressure amongst Wiccans to say, well my tradition is a
family tradition, and it goes back to my Grandma. That was again pressure put
on by Christian socialisation, that you had to claim there was some form of Apostolic
succession as they say in the Christian church. In factGardner introduced that idea by passing power
on from the initiated to the initiate and that caused several problems. In
Paganism that isn’t actually required and people are beginning to realise that
now. Wicca is beginning to change considerably. People now, rather than feeling
they need to claim ancient lineage are saying, no, I’m connecting directly with
Spirit, directly with God and Goddess. That’s the true nature of being a priest
or priestess.
Lilitu: That’s something that’s
only come forward in the last ten or fifteen years. One of the first
people that said that in books, was the late Scott Cunningham - that you can
self-initiate and self-dedicate.
Janet: Doreen Valiente also said the same thing.
Gavin: She was saying that in the early ‘80s in the book Witchcraft for Tomorrow, and a
lot of people were saying that at the same time because things were evolving.
Janet and Stewart were saying that as well. Ray Buckland was saying it as early
as 1969-1970. One of the reasons that started to occur was the influence of the
United States
because you had groups of people spread out all over the country who couldn’t
get to each other. There were small pockets of Pagans and Witches with nobody else
around so they self initiated and when other people bumped into them, they were
just as much a Witch as anyone else. In fact in many cases, self-initiating and
doing the path by yourself actually
produces far better Witches because there’s no doctrine and dogma forced on
them - they have to learn it for themselves. This is one of the other things
we’re finding.
Janet: One of the biggest problems when people claim lineage from
different traditions, they say, well my people come from so-and-so, and they
choose a famous name from occult history. What they don’t realise is that
Doreen Valiente led a very busy life. She knew many of those people and has
letters from then, and they weren’t Witches. Again we go back to them being
things like Theosophists, Rosicrucians; one of them was even a Knights Templar,
but they are not Witches.
Gavin: What people have forgotten, or haven’t realised is they’re
doing something quite natural when they do the lineage thing, except they’ve
got it wrong slightly. Lineage only exists within a family if you’re blood kin.
What’s happening is people are trying to trace ancestry via people they’ve
never known and are not connected with. Within Paganism itself, you’ll always
find this idea of ancestry, connecting with your ancestors. Lineage came about
and really supplanted that idea but it’s a false idea; it’s a Christian idea.
Rather than people tracing their ancestry back, instead they’re trying to
produce a false history of themselves and that’s also been one of the problems.
People are now feeling the need to connect to their ancestry and you’ll find
that around the world, if you look at ancient forms of Pagan practise. Shinto
is an ancient form of Pagan practise where you give reference to your
ancestors.
The other problem that’s occurred is people see the deities
within Paganism as Gods and Goddesses in the same way they saw the Christian
god, and they’re not. A lot of Gods and Goddesses’ origins are as ancestors. We
know this from Christian writings. A good example from Anglo-Saxon England is
stuff written by the Venerable Bede in the 9th century and he mentions that the
Kings of England all had to take an oath when they were christianised that they
would forsake and not worship the Devil, Woden, Thunor and Saxniat. They weren’t
told that they couldn’t revere those deities as ancestors, obviously apart from
Satan, but they were told they couldn’t be worshipped as gods any more. If you
check the royal families ofEurope, they still
link their ancestry back right the way into the past to god figures. These are
seen as ancestors.
We start off with an ancestor who has done something
positive for their tribe, family, community or clan. As time goes on they
become a mythological figure, and then they become deified, highly revered as a
spiritual figure. No different to the Buddha, no different to any avatar in
Hindu tradition.
Lilitu: It’s similar to the way in which ordinary people who do
extraordinary things become saints in the Catholic tradition.
Gavin: John Lennon [laughs]. There are shrines permanently to John
Lennon around the world. The most interesting thing that happened was after the
death of Diana Princess ofWales: shrines
began to appear to her and there are web sites revering her as a Goddess. This
is the same process in action. Within Witchcraft the whole idea of lineage is
actually false. It only exists if you’re in a family tradition but not in any
other.
Lilitu: Why the need to have a Godhead?
Gavin: When you look at deity you see a face of the divine and
everybody needs a face to identify with. Stewart Farrar used to have a good way
of explaining this. He used to say if I was a horse, my god would be a horse,
so within Wicca and within Paganism, when we look at deities we are seeing faces
we’ve put on. We’ve given them 50% of the power they have. The other 50% of the
power comes from the Divine because of the way we treat them. You very much
have to work with deities, there’s no bowing or groveling as in the
patriarchal religions, it’s a working relationship with them.
Lilitu: And in a sense you’re working with a part of
yourself, not with something external.
Gavin: The Divine comes through you as well; it’s inside and
outside you. That’s also summed up in the old occult maxim, “As above, so
below”. Just because it works, you’re part of the Divine. You could also argue
that you’re part of the Divine through your ancestry as well. I link to an
Anglo-Saxon goddess because I have strong English roots. There’s something
genetic going on here as well.
Lilitu: I’ve seen that with a lot of people in the Pagan community.
I’ll take my own example - I’m very attracted to Lilith and Kali. To Lilith
because it reflects my Jewish heritage but the dark goddesses because I think
often they’re fiery troublemakers and that reflects a bit of me. Other people
in the community do that too - others are attracted to the Irish myth cycle or
the Welsh Mabinogion.
Gavin: We unfortunately do also have a fashionable element
where people get drawn to something as a fashion. I’ll quite openly admit that
for a long time I fell victim to that and tried to work with Celtic. It just
wasn’t the same and finally I did actually give in and started to work with
Anglo-Saxon. Everything clicked because there was something in me that had that
yearning. Saying that, I also work outside with deities of other pantheons. At
home we have a shrine to Ganesha because he’s very powerful. He’s the most
worshipped deity in the world.
Janet: We call our house the house of a hundred gods and believe me
we’ve got more than a hundred gods there now. In the morning when I first get
up, the first duty I have is to light incense to the Durga which of course
incorporates Kali, who is one of my deities too. Then I have to light a candle
on the cat altar, covered in statues of Bast, and Bast also gets her saucer of
milk. Then I have to go to Freya’s altar because she is my deity and Freya has
to have fresh flowers every Monday morning, as by the way does Bast. They liked
to be preened and nurtured and loved, and we even went through a stage when
Ganesh was demanding milk and this was a phenomena happening all over the
world, the statues were drinking milk and our Ganesh was doing exactly the
same.
Gavin: The psychologist Jung tried to explain the idea of Deities:
Gods and Goddesses, as numinous archetypes but the same as a biologist trying
to explain what life is by taking apart the brain, trying to explain what
consciousness is by looking at the anatomy. All Jung was doing was looking at
the anatomy; he couldn’t explain how it worked. So you can put forward the idea
that deities are numinous archetypes, but they also have a personality of their
own and this is the trick magically. The trick magickally is to actually be
able to believe in them as individual personalities as well as realising that
they are something psychological going on, numinous archetypes for example, and
balancing the two; walking between the two.
Lilitu: They exist on many levels.
Gavin: Yes, realising that both statements are true. We’re brought
up in monotheistic religion to believe that there is only one truth, there’s
only one way, there’s only one God, but within paganism it’s polytheistic so
there are many truths. The answer may be 4, but 2+2=4, 1+3=4, 1+1+1+1=4 and
that’s how Paganism works. In monotheistic religions it’s purely 2+2=4.
Lilitu: To go back to what you were saying before, for example, you
relate best to the Anglo-Saxon, I relate best of all to the dark Goddesses and
so on. When you have larger groups of people, covens or groups up to 20 or
larger organisations, how do you manage that where you may have a group of 100
plus people at a public ritual?
Janet: You just refer to the Lord and Lady.
Gavin: Or for example if you’re doing a Summer Rite, take the deity
of Summer back to her origins. Invoke the Goddess of Summer. Invoke the horned
god of the forest. Invoke Mother Earth. It’s an archetype which is above all
culture. If we’re at big gatherings and we do any invocations, we will invoke
images that everybody understands. If they decide to put personal names on
that: Cernunnos, Herne, whatever, that is going to be up to them. The main
thing is everybody gets the same image.
Lilitu: What about smaller groups where you need to work more
closely together?
Janet: Where we work at home, all of our Craft people have their
own names for their own deities but if we are working inside the temple in the
house, we refer to just the Lord and the Lady. If we’re working outside we have
a genus loci and her name is Tlachta.
Gavin: Genus loci by the way means spirit of the land and again,
it’s a big problem within modern Paganism as we see all Gods and Goddesses as
Gods and Goddesses in the Christian vein whereas in many cases they’re just
higher forms of Spirit, related to areas, for example Tlachta was a Goddess
figure of a particular area of land in Ireland where we live. So if we’re
working with the land we work wherever possible with the spirits of that land.
It’s not ancestral. We live inIreland
so we work with the Irish deities when we’re working on the land. They can’t be
ignored, they’re in the land and you pay respects to the land, to the deities
of the land which are the spiritual manifestation of the land.
Lilitu: InAustralia
for example where we may not know who the spirits of the land are, either
because that’s been lost or the local indigenous people are not able to share
the knowledge, how can we overcome that? I know it’s a tough question to ask.
Gavin: It is a tough question. I think over time people will go and
find them. I think it’s in the nature of people to go out into the land and see
the land and anthropomorphise the spirit of it in some form or produce an
animal form representing. Rivers have traditionally been associated with snakes
because they serpentine. I’m pretty sure to Aboriginal people the idea of the
rainbow serpent, there’s this thing of the river. Rivers are very important to
people. Every major city is built on a river in the world. There’s a good
reason for that because it’s water supply and water is vital. You have to look
to the land itself and see what’s there, and talk to it. After a while it will
talk back.
Lilitu: How do people do that?
Gavin: [laughs] Aaah! Really it’s about going out there and spending time
and working with that land, connecting with it, meditating at the quiet places
- not doing full scale rituals, you just need to sit quietly and feel it,
listen to it. To use a term I don’t like using, it’s a shamanistic experience.
Lilitu: That’s not a bad way of describing it.
Gavin: No it’s a good way but I have a problem with using the word
shamanism too much because it’s too much of a buzzword nowadays.
Lilitu: I guess the way more new age oriented people describe such
an experience is channeling.
Gavin: Spiritualists used to call it mediumship. Channeling is a
new-age word for mediumship or psychically connecting. In the past mediumship
was a very strong word. If you’re a medium, you’re a medium, there’s no doubt
about it, so channeling is easier. It can mean a whole lot of things. Could
you call it channeling? No, I don’t call it channeling. My idea of
channeling is when you are bringing through an entity. This isn’t about
bringing through an entity; this is about connection actually with the land
itself - you going out to meet the land and the land meeting you halfway.
Lilitu: That’s a much more authentic experience than going to a
ritual where someone else has created something that you don't relate to.
Gavin: Yes it is. It’s something we’ll do with initiates in our
group, which is basically throw them out in the countryside for a night. The
Norse had a term for that which was called the sit out where you spend 24 hours
in the middle of nowhere and you connect with the land. It’s very surprising
what just going out into a piece of forest or woods for 24 hours, right through
the night with nobody else. Suddenly you are alone with nothing but the land
and what happens is the darkness reflects your own shadow or your oppressed
fears, and all your fears come out. After you’ve dealt with all of those you
suddenly realise the world around you is alive. The stones are alive; the
ground is alive; the air is alive; the trees are alive. All those norms and
values have told you, you shouldn’t see this. As a child we’re told initially
to believe there are fairies and then we get to a certain age and fairies don’t
exist. It’s repressed. Shamanistic work is shadow work where you pull away all
the expectations; all the things that you’ve repressed and been told not to
believe in; you pull all those away. You pull away all the norms and values
which have stopped you connecting with nature in this culture.
In other cultures, in Indian culture, it’s taken for granted
there are fairy folk who are devas in the flowers, in the plants and animals.
The Greeks took it for granted. In Ancient Greece there were dryads; there were
water nymphs.
Janet: And the Irish still take it for granted.
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