From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:26:25 +0100 >Or have been borrowed from the same unknown source as Greek oinos, >and adapted to fit Egyptian as oinos was adapted to Greek? ***That Greek word for wine is related to words in many other cultures, and the words all have that first consonant that is missing in Egyptian (plus the -m.t remains unexplained), making any connection very unlikely: Arabic wayn Hittitic wiyana Greek woinos Latin vinum It is often suggested that wine, and thus the word for it, originated in the Caucasus (Georgian gwino) Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 02:47:42 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t I'm sorry I did not really think of this earlier, but, is there any possibility that inm.t means, "Greek wine'? Now, please pardon the stretched thinking but, if this were so, its appearance in Thoth inscriptions might represent a metaphor for "modern Philosophy", and thus explain why a god of wisdom, learning, poise, and good grooming would be interested in wine. The priests of Hermopolis and Alexandria evidently wrote the _Book of Thoth_ (see Jasnow and Zauzich) partially in response to Greek ideas. I hope that I have not seemed tactless in pursuing this question, but it is to me both interesting and obscure, a difficult combination. The responses are greatly appreciated, as well as any further entertainment that this inquiry might receive. Bob ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:28:47 -0600 From: "Chris Weimer" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t The Semitic is yyn, is it not? The Greek word itself was a loan word from the Semitic. Could it not be possible to be either a Semitic loan word, or perhaps goes back to a common source in the Afro-Asian language family? All the best, Chris Weimer ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:13:11 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Thanks; Oinos is related to the Sanskrit vena, and w would not be an easy sound to drop at a late date. Perhaps it is one of those specialty wines, and might more likely have an Egyptian derivation? Could it be a wine significant in ceremonial use, perhaps flavored with thyme or pomegranates? Bob ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:16:00 +0100 >he Semitic is yyn, is it not? The Greek word itself was a loan word from >the Semitic. Could it not be possible to be either a Semitic loan word, or >erhaps goes back to a common source in the Afro-Asian language family? **The Greek is not from the Semitic but from Indoeuropean. See also the Sanskrit, Hittite and Latin. This rules out the idea that it would come from Egyptian, as two other posters suggest here: >Oinos is related to the Sanskrit vena, and w would not be an easy sound >to drop at a late date. >Perhaps it is one of those specialty wines, and might more likely have >an Egyptian derivation? and >That being stated I think that the thema greek eolic οίνος comes >by old egyptian wnS it means the concept of cluster of grapes or >even sic et simpliciter wine. These signs can be seen starting from >the Ptolemaic period (cfr. WB –I - pag. 325 “Gr. Als Bez. Der >Weintrauben und des Weines). Interesting element is connected >word (female) trsl. wnS.t that even it means “wine” (cfr. Op. ib. I- 325 > but, a thing more importantly it is that we see this signs by the >XIX Dyn (WB wrote “XIX, Gr.”) before many centuries of the >Ptolemaic period. During the Ptolemaic period (“the Hellenistic time”) >the greek language influenced the demotic but this is not the our case, >because there are traces of much earlier of the Egyptian word that has >probably influenced the Georgian and Hittite, not viceversa. **The Hittite has an Indoeuropean source, see above. The Indoeuropean and the Georgian have a common origin (if the Indoeuropean does not stem from the Georgian, seeing the likely origin of viniculture (Iran or Caucasus)). The Egyptian is surely unrelated, the S cannot be ignored. I'm puzzled why people want to derive a very old and widespread wanderwort from a relatively late and obscure Egyptian word! Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:29:51 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Thanks for all the information. Much obliged! Apparently, the dual ending comes from the pair of bottles, as mentioned. After looking at the entry in dictionary by Erman, it seems that the word may come from "wineskin" and hence from inm, "skin". So, it looks to me like the epithet may actually mean "Lord of the wineskins in abundant supply", except for the A2 determinative. If so, could this then perhaps be a suggestion of the virtue of hospitality, rather than joy inebriation? Best regards, Bob ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 17:38:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Oscar H. Blayton, Atty. At Law, Inc." To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Question: Perhaps I missed this in an earlier post, but wWhat is the Indoeuropean root of the word in the Greek? ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 17:37:31 -0600 From: "Chris Weimer" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t I am uncertain that it is actually IndoEuropean. Mycenaean apparently attests the older form, wo-no, but in Ugaritic it's /yn/ and Akkadian /inu/. I am not entirely familiar with Sanskrit, so perhaps someone can fully point out the relations, but couldn't it still have been borrowed? What's the earliest attestation of it in Sanskrit literature? And why was wine lost in northern European languages? Wine is from the Latin vinum, as are most of the European words for it. In the earliest strata, we see medh- instead, like Eng. mead (O.E medu), Sanskrit mdhu and Greek methu, and Slav. med[ucaron]. We do know that India also had early contact with Mesopotamian. >> I'm puzzled why people want to derive a very old and widespread >> wanderwort from a relatively late and obscure Egyptian word! I'd almost think the other way around! With that being said, I do like the Georgian hypothesis best so far, merely because of the g, but then, Welsh likewise added it to the Latin borrowings. Chris Weimer U. Memphis ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:43:17 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Chris Weimer wrote: > > I am uncertain that it is actually IndoEuropean. Mycenaean apparently > attests the older form, wo-no, but in Ugaritic it's /yn/ and Akkadian /inu/. > I am not entirely familiar with Sanskrit, so perhaps someone can fully point > out the relations, but couldn't it still have been borrowed? What's the > earliest attestation of it in Sanskrit literature? And why was wine lost in > northern European languages? Wine is from the Latin vinum, as are most of > the European words for it. In the earliest strata, we see medh- instead, > like Eng. mead (O.E medu), Sanskrit mdhu and Greek methu, and Slav. > med[ucaron]. We do know that India also had early contact with > Mesopotamian. > > >>> I'm puzzled why people want to derive a very old and widespread >>> wanderwort from a relatively late and obscure Egyptian word! >>> > > I'd almost think the other way around! With that being said, I do like the > Georgian hypothesis best so far, merely because of the g, but then, Welsh > likewise added it to the Latin borrowings. > > Chris Weimer > U. Memphis > Well, the physical evidence does give us Georgia as the original region for viticulture. Erman says, "Art Wein" or a type or variety of wine, rather than a generic term. With a specialized meaning, the possibilities broaden considerably, I would suspect. Bob ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:08:15 +0000 From: "D.N.Tranter" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Thomas Gamkrelidze and Vjaceslav Ivanov's (1995) "Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans" deals with wine on pp.557-559. They establish an IE root *w(e/o)ino- which "is characterized by extreme stablility across the various branches and shows regular phonetic correspondences among the main ancient dialects", including Hittite wiyana-, Mycenaean Greek wo-no- (for woino-), Latin ui:num etc. They compare it with the Semitic root *wayn-, and also with Egyptian wnS and wnS.t. They treat it as a migratory word, one that has been borrowed between the ancestors of different language families, but suggest that it is of IE origin. They take *w(e)ino- apart as *w(e)i- + *-no-, and derive from the same *w(e)i- a stem *w(e)i- + *-ti-, meaning a willow or a vine (Latin ui:tis 'grapevine', and words in a number of IE branches meaning 'willow'). The *w(e)i- itself means 'weave/twist'. I think the etymology for *w(e)iti- is convincing, but the similarity of *w(e)ino- may be coincidental, so I think the ultimate source of *w(e)ino- is open to question: it could be Afro-Asiatic, it could be Caucasian. NicTranter. ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:21:33 +0100 >I am uncertain that it is actually IndoEuropean. Mycenaean apparently >attests the older form, wo-no, but in Ugaritic it's /yn/ and Akkadian >/inu/. **Yes, but as said, Arabic is wayn (Sabaean wyn). And apparently that is an older form than the Ugaritic and Hebrew, as in those languages, a waw at the beginning of a word becomes a yod, I think?. Also the American Heritage Dictionary says ProtoSemitic was *wayn-, so akin to Indo-European (see below). How the Akkadian features in this I do not know. >With that being said, I do like the Georgian hypothesis best >so far, merely because of the g, **Yes. And also seeing the likely origin of the stuff in Zagros Mnts or Caucasus Mnts (Georgia!), see: http://www.archaeology.org/9609/newsbriefs/wine.html http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/000498.html >What is the Indoeuropean root of the word in the Greek? **Beekes (IE scholar) reconstructs Proto-Indo-European *u(e)ih1-(o)n- He seems to think it is PIE notably based on Hittite wiyan(a) and Luwian wa/i-ya-na. So the word would be a loan into both ProtoSemitic and ProtoIndoEuropean, from e.g. the Caucasian (see above), instead of the one borrowing from the other as also has been suggested (either direction). No certainties. Of course this all does not say whether Egyptian wnS figures into this in any way. The WB only says that it (since OK) is a fruit (edible and medicinal, with seed) and avoids calling it a grape. The (later) wnS.t is clearly wine made of wnS, but recall that 'wine' was also made from other fruits. Only the Greek period would have it equated with grape wine, apparently, although I do not know how certain that is. Hannig (HWB) calls wnS "Rosine". Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:39:00 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Hi; I think perhaps my sixty four dollar question is if we might be looking at Boylan's presentation of the epithet as "Lord of wine who drinks abundantly" and it is actually the Hellenized Egyptian version of "Lord of the Symposium", as the word aSA may mean a gathering or party. Yet, the final A2 may in some instances be read as an ideograph for "swri". Bob ============================================================================== From: "Mario Menichetti" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: R: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:32:07 +0100 The sansckit word vena it means desire and similar concepts like the love (ven = love, ven= Venus). A romanticized past-tradition it places the word wine from this term (mainly in XIX Cent.). This conjecture it has not been never taken in consideration by linguistic scholars that they consider the word of Mediterranean origin. The scholars they define Mediterranean origin in the western languages - all words that they do not have any derivation with the Indo-European etimos. For this reason we have only three philological possibility: a borrowed by semitic origin (yayin / yin ) by hamito-semitic (wn / wn.t) - by Colchis isolated idioma (georg. gwino). Georgian wine was well known from the old times. It was exported from territory of Georgia by Phoenicians even 5,000 years ago and then from the Colchis the wine was known in Palestine and Egypt where it had the maximum spread. For this reason it is very plausible - the possibility that the etimo it has semitic, hamito-semitic or georg. origin even if we do not have the certainty. The four way it is only the nostratic theory. I agree that the consonant in hamito-semitic or g in Georg. they are incompatibily elements but the phonetism in the course of the centuries it can have partially modified the original etimo for borrowed other phonemas by other words. Best regards Mario Menichetti ============================================================================== From: Carl Edlund Anderson Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:43:15 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List On 06 Feb 2008, at 18:37 , Chris Weimer wrote: > I am uncertain that it is actually IndoEuropean. Mycenaean apparently > attests the older form, wo-no, but in Ugaritic it's /yn/ and > Akkadian /inu/. I am sure I've seen it suggested in academic circles that the "wine" word was borrowed into known IE and Semitic languages from a now- extinct Mediterranean language or language family -- one of those eminently plausible but ultimately unprovable theories. :) The initial labial in Italic and some dialects of Greek does suggest an initial labial in the "*Mediterranean" word, though if we are dealing with borrowings from a language family rather than a specific language, it could be that some dialects of this family themselves either had or did not have an initial labial in their cognate words for "wine" (meaning some known languages could have borrowed the word with an labial, others might have borrowed a cognate without it). More plausible but unprovable speculation .... ;) > And why was wine lost in > northern European languages? Wine is from the Latin vinum, as are most of > the European words for it. In the earliest strata, we see medh- instead, > like Eng. mead (O.E medu), Sanskrit m=E1dhu and Greek methu, and Slav. > med[ucaron]. The latter medh- words seemingly connected with honey, of course. It would make sense when looking for an origin for the "wine" word that we look in a region where grapes grow well, since the "wine" word seems strongly connected to fermented beverages made from grapes, rather than other substances like honey or grain. >>> I'm puzzled why people want to derive a very old and widespread >>> wanderwort from a relatively late and obscure Egyptian word! > > I'd almost think the other way around! With that being said, I do > like the > Georgian hypothesis best so far, merely because of the g, but then, > Welsh > likewise added it to the Latin borrowings. I'm not so much sure that Welsh "added" a /g/ so much as /gw/ is the regular development of original Latin /w/ (for orthographic initial /), but now I'm letting myself drift well off-topic and away from Egyptian. Hmm. Are we closer to any consensus about whether Egyptian words apparently connected with wine are potentially related to "wine" or whether the appearance is perhaps only coincidental? :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/ ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 23:03:41 +0100 Nic wrote: > so I think the ultimate source of *w(e)ino- is open >to question: it could be Afro-Asiatic, it could be Caucasian. **But please remember that vines are not native to Egypt, and that the earliest attestations of wine in Egypt and Levant are (from memory) ca. 3500 BC, so a lot later than in the north (Caucasus, Zagros), where the vine IS at home. That both suggest a flow of the cultivation southward, and then it would be odd if the name would go northward. I wonder whether there are African Afro-Asiatic (Cushite, Berber etc) words that match wnS, to determine what fruit it is. Or Semitic for that matter. The possible link with the other wnS (canide animal) is also intriguing, as apparently the fruit word wnS also has det. F27 (according to Hannig; I did not check whether the WB confirms this). What that spells for the fruit I do not know -- perhaps it is the reason for the idea of Rosine (as a kind of skin of grape??) Carl wrote: >Hmm. Are we closer to any consensus about whether Egyptian words >apparently connected with wine are potentially related to "wine" or >whether the appearance is perhaps only coincidental? :) **There is a one-man consensus ;)) Namely, IMO the similar appearance of wnS with Asiatic wine-words is purely coincidental. And the similarity is meagre, seeing the ruthless S. Bob's question (about inm.t) remains unsolved too. IMO wordorder and determinative rule out your proposals, Bob. Pity Boylan gives no context. Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 11:02:56 +0100 From: marwan kilani To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t In Sanskrit wine is “madiraa” or “mádya/mádyaa”, probably related with the Indo-European root “*medhu-”, that probably means “honey/mead”. About “wine”, for indoeuropean Sergei Nikolayev proposed the root *wein-, and for the afroasiatic languages Alexander Militarev and Olga Stolbova proposed the root *nawaS-, related with the Egyptian “wnS.t” and the semitic root *naS- cf. akk. nâsu (mean: “a kind of beer”) Marwan Kilani Notes: About the IE root cf: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=1&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&text_meaning=wine&method_meaning=substring&text_hitt=&method_hitt=substring&text_tokh=&method_tokh=substring&text_ind=&method_ind=substring&text_avest=&method_avest=substring&text_iran=&method_iran=substring&text_arm=&method_arm=substring&text_greek=&method_greek=substring&text_slav=&method_slav=substring&text_balt=&method_balt=substring&text_germ=&method_germ=substring&text_lat=&method_lat=substring&text_ital=&method_ital=substring&text_celt=&method_celt=substring&text_alb=&method_alb=substring&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&text_refer=&method_refer=substring&text_comment=&method_comment=substring&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto About the Afro-Asiatic root cf: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Csemham%5Cafaset&first=1&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&text_meaning=wine&method_meaning=substring&text_sem=&method_sem=substring&text_brb=&method_brb=substring&text_egy=&method_egy=substring&text_wch=&method_wch=substring&text_cch=&method_cch=substring&text_ech=&method_ech=substring&text_bed=&method_bed=substring&text_agw=&method_agw=substring&text_sho=&method_sho=substring&text_lec=&method_lec=substring&text_hec=&method_hec=substring&text_wrz=&method_wrz=substring&text_scu=&method_scu=substring&text_dhl=&method_dhl=substring&text_mgg=&method_mgg=substring&text_omo=&method_omo=substring&text_notes=&method_notes=substring&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:58:05 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t A.K. Eyma wrote > Bob's question (about inm.t) remains unsolved too. IMO > wordorder and determinative rule out your proposals, Bob. > Pity Boylan gives no context. Hi; As you mentioned with regard to our questions about Chassinat, "access to titles" could be the turning point. Here are the references given by Boylan on p. 187, epithet 13: Philae, Phot. 1434 (Wb.): cf. Phot. 1447 (Pnubs). And, here is the MdC of the epithet in toto, for those who don't have the PDF or hard copy on hand: nb-i-in:N35-Aa15-Aa15:t*y:nw-I1&&&(1*1*1)-N33A\R90-A2 I think that my hypothesis for "Lord of the Symposium" may be somewhat weakened by another epithet translated "Lord of Drunkenness", if indeed the translation is correct. But I think that these translations should come under better scrutiny, seeing that Thoth is an archetype of sobriety. But, seeing as the epithet in question appears in the Hellenistic temples, the native Egyptians may have found some use for the Greek idea of a symposium as a catalyst of scholarly discussion. Case in point: the mention of wine, and all these gentlemen offer their observations. : >} Best regards, Bob ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:24:19 -0600 From: "Chris Weimer" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Hey everyone, I started a similar discussion on the Yahoo list ANE-2 over Akkadian /inu/. I've received great responses. Read this in particular: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/message/7398 Best regards, Chris Weimer U. Memphis ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Etymology of inm.t Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:12:58 +0100 As you mentioned with regard to our questions about Chassinat, "access to titles" could be the turning point. Here are the references given by Boylan on p. 187, epithet 13: Philae, Phot. 1434 (Wb.): cf. Phot. 1447 (Pnubs). And, here is the MdC of the epithet in toto, for those who don't have the PDF or hard copy on hand: nb-i-in:N35-Aa15-Aa15:t*y:nw-I1&&&(1*1*1)-N33A\R90-A2 I think that my hypothesis for "Lord of the Symposium" may be somewhat weakened by another epithet translated "Lord of Drunkenness", if indeed the translation is correct. But I think that these translations should come under better scrutiny, seeing that Thoth is an archetype of sobriety. **Yes, I too think Boylan's translation of the above epithet as "Lord of wine who drinks abundantly" is suspect (can anyone her get that translation out of the MdC?) It seems to be "Lord of many wine-vessels" , which does not per se conflict with his sobriety -- no, really! ;) For Boylan says about nb txy "Lord of Drunkenness", the other epithet you mention: "as associate of Tefnut of Nubia" (p 189). He does not further give a clue why he adds that, but I could imagine the following being the case: Tefnut is the Solar Eye who went to Nubia in anger, and in some stories it is Thoth who brings her back, pacifying her with much sweet talk In other stories the Eye as Sekhmet is pacified by red drink, as all will know here (Destruction of Mankind, translated on AEL in the past). In that story it is not Thoth who brews and pours the red fluid, but perhaps there were late versions who combined the two different stories into one?? Then Thoth would be lord of wine vessels and drunkenness as pacifier of the Solar Eye, not as drinker himself. Just a hunch. What do you think? Note also that a wordplay between lord of txy (drunkenness) and other epithets, like txn (ibis) [here the vessel is n(w) and not det., see p 8-9 and 199] and tx (balance-tongue) [with heart det., which resembles vessel det., p. 8-9] could have been made. Best regards, Aayko ==============================================================================