A Voice for Men
27Jan/1154

Conservative Misandry

By Hestia

The evils of misandry and feminism are oftentimes believed to come packaged in one particular way, the leftist branch feminism that immediately pops into mind when the topic is mentioned. While this may indeed be the most visible type of anti-male streak running through our culture today, this is not the only form, nor the type of misandry that is most harmful. There is a strain of feminism, one I've dubbed "conservative feminism" that is typically comes packaged in sparkles, ribbons, and bows. At first glance, this form may seem innocent, but upon pondering certain ideas and stereotypes floating around out there, one will quickly realize that something sinister is flying around the conservative religious world that proclaims their hatred for feminism.

Any belief system or idea that attempts to elevate women above men or proclaim femininity better than masculinity is feminism. In both leftist and conservative feminism this is done, often using the same wrongful ideas about men, just spinning them a bit differently for their intended audiences.

As you will see below, in conservative feminism, we find hatred of men in many ways:

*Men As Wallets- In every part of society, men are now treated as walking breathing wallets. It is their job to hand over money to state through child support (usually without DNA proof of paternity) and alimony when marriages go wrong. Men are still expected to cover the bill for dating and they typically bear the burden of breadwinner even in two income households.

In the conservative world, the burden of work takes an even more troubling turn as woman are taught they have a right to stay home with their children and if their husband cannot afford to provide the standard of living that makes this necessary, then he is out of God's will, a sinner, or backslidden. When the talk turns to Titus 2 or other other verses used to support this women's right, there is not an admonishment to wives to be frugal, to be industrious and start a home business, a garden for cooking and canning, or so forth, just a strict requirement for men without a rule of cooperation on the part of women. Staying at home is simply her right, with no responsibility to aid the burden of breadwinning.

Men are not allowed to express their anxiety, anguish, or upset about this rule and expectation, but are made to suffer in silence, carrying their burden alone. In fact, men's fear is so poorly tolerated that should a man express genuine concern over not being able to have more children, for fear of feeding them in tumultuous economic times, his worry will be brushed aside and said to be the sin of "not trusting the Lord". The poor man is simply to worry himself to a heart attack, work more hours and miss out on the lives of his children, or risk having his worst fear--that of being a financial failure--come true.

*Men As Expendable- Our culture sees men as disposable. We have yet to establish an Office of Men's Health (though one is possibly in the works), do not provide the same amount of funding for diseases that primarily effect men as we do for women, and we collectively expect men to perform the most unpleasant and dangerous of jobs, from coal mining and logging to law enforcement and serving in the military, without so much as an ounce of appreciation for putting their lives on the line for the enjoyment/protection of us all.

Conservative feminism takes this a step farther by expecting men to take on the responsibilities of modern day chivalry. Some ministries have publicly expressed contempt for men at Virginia Tech who did not take bullets for their women classmates when the tragic shooting occurred on the campus. Others preach that it must be husbands who do the dirty and gross jobs around the house, that is must be husbands who check for the bumps in the night, and that should there be an emergency of some sort, it better be the husband who is operating the fire extinguisher or hammering the boards before the hurricane arrives. There is no talk of women humbling themselves and learning to help alongside their husbands, if this is what their husbands would like, or being prepared to be their own heroes should a situation warrant this. On the contrary, in many instances, anything labeled as "mans work" will be considered a feminist activity and thus inappropriate for a wife to do, even if she must (as in the case of the wife of a deployed soldier like myself) or if her husband encourages her to help him with such tasks. There is not even admonishments to be appreciative of men for taking on chivalrous duties, but rather an expectation of such special treatment is taught.

*Fathers As Optional- We all know in what low regard fathers are held in today, and sadly this reality does not end at the church door. The contempt had for fathers may not be as open as it is in mainstream society, however, it's well and alive despite being a bit more hidden. We often hear talk about how much small children need their mother at home, how they cannot grow and thrive without them. We'll see motherhood elevated to the highest levels, being considered the most important and difficult job in the world. While this isn't a bad thing, the lack of high praise for fatherhood, or even mere mention of a father's importance, is striking. Yes children of all ages need their mothers, but they need their fathers just as much, from the bittiest baby to the teenager entering adulthood.

When conservatives bemoan women being in the military, the typical reason named is because the children miss and need their mothers. The reality of fathers deploying and leaving behind children is absent, not thought of at all. This is the same when the Titus 2 mandate is discussed. The importance of having mothers spending quantity time with their children is raised to the level of the highest importance, yet the reality of fathers perhaps working two jobs or more than 40 hours work week, and thus hardly seeing their children at all, does not warrant a mention. If fatherhood was being held in the high position it needs to be, this stunning disregard for daddies wouldn't be uttered without objections and dissent.

*Men As Perverts- "All heterosexual sex is rape" the leftist feminists proclaim, and while the conservative feminists may take the gross crime of rape off the table, a respect for healthy male sexuality they do not bring. In the conservative world, there are numerous harmful stereotypes floating about when it comes to sex. For starters, all men are not seen to be potential rapists but potential adulterers. There exist books and advice is shared that encourages wives to use sex as a means of manipulation. Women are being advised they need to be intimate with their husbands not because they love them and desire to be close to them, not for the bonding experience, not to celebrate this special gift God has given to married couples but rather to prevent their husbands from straying. What could be a beautiful expression is lowered to the level of deceit and manipulation just like that.

Perhaps not quite as sinister but still problematic is the contempt had for the male sex drive. A man's sexual desire is at best merely tolerated and at worst, looked at as a perverted dysfunction for he is not "normal" like a woman. Cruel jokes are often made by woman, both in mixed company and not, about a man's sex drive, remarks about how husbands always want it, laughter about denying one's husband, and many other words to pathologize healthy male virility.

*Men As Immoral Uncivilized Brutes- The Victorian "angel in the house" is still alive and well in today's world and nowhere does this appear to be more true than in the churches today. Never pausing for a brief moment to consider that the cherished idea of chivalry and men as soldiers allows women to live in a civilized world with special perks, the declaration of women as the more civilized & moral sex is shouted from many a pulpit today. (And nevermind that it is women who have initiated 70% of divorces and killed millions upon millions of precious babies, neither of which are moral or civilized by any definition...) Typical male traits, such as courageousness, justice, fairness, and take charge initiation are denigrated so that female nurturing, passivity, openminded love, and modesty can instead be elevated as the correct way to be morality. The reality of an important balance existing between these two types of morality, making both worthy of celebration is never mentioned and becomes all the more downplayed as churches feminize further, pushing men from their pews.

*Men At Fault- Men are blamed for much in today's day and age, both in and out of the church, but the most disturbing fault I have ever heard placed on men is that of their wife's willful rebellion and self chosen sins. There are people preaching the heresy that if only men led their wives better, these women would never sin, commit adultery, or do anything of this sort. If men were taking charge correctly, their wives would submit to them and never do wrong. In some denominations and churches, this is taken a step further, not merely placing the burden of a wife's sin on a husband here on earth, but for all eternity as well. Lessons are being taught that state a man will be held accountable to God for the decisions his wife made, including those that went against his wishes and directions. Actions of which the husband had no part. This is outrageous and heretical.

*Men As Unfeeling Robots- This final idea about men should be perfectly obvious with all the terrible ideas that are allowed to circle around about men and masculinity, for if we cared about men's feelings, these lies would not be allowed to spread. In our culture, we have a very narrow view on male emotional expression and are quick to judge a boy or man who does not fit into this stereotype. "Man up" and "boys don't cry" starts on the tot lot playground.

We expect men to be able to hear the most cruel of words and not take them to heart. Men are expected to put themselves on the line for others with no appreciation and no way to seek emotional support to ease the many burdens placed upon their shoulders. All men are expected to handle trying times without help or support and some men--especially law enforcement, firemen, soldiers, and others we'd see as "tough guys"-- are expected to hold in all the terrible sights they have seen, man up and keeping going on. Men from all walks of life are told to toughen up all the way to a suicide, heart attack, or breakdown. And even then, we'll collectively feel for his family more than we will for him. "Oh his poor wife and children, I wonder how they are handling this tragedy."

We also expect men to express their anger at real slights in a feminine way, so we women feel most comfortable. Women seek to tell me how to feel. They seek to own the experiences of men. They attempt to tell men how masculinity should be lived and what they experienced. Men are not allowed to own their emotions, life experiences, or masculinity, for this makes women uncomfortable. Our culture attempts to silence them, to appease those who are scared of men being men on their own terms.

*Woman As Children-For my final note on conservative feminism, women as children is the topic I must bring up. Just as is the case with leftist feminism, the conservative strain does not seek to help us mature into capable adult women who can be true helpmeets to our husband and mothers to our children. Instead, it seeks to keep us as children forever.

Male headship is often twisted to mean that women do not need to take responsibility for anything in their family for this falls in the husband's duties. A husband must provide the paycheck, the discipline for children, and all the hardwork around the house while the wife stays home with the children and doesn't truly work at home. Wives are not encouraged to ask their husbands what they need to best help them, to form a healthy type of cooperation in which a marriage and children can thrive, to help bear the load with the men with whom they are supposed to share and build a life with. The talk is most often exclusively on privilege rather responsibility, leaving husbands with a lopsided bargain which adds far more the his plates of responsibility than to his wife's.

More Hestia here.

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  1. Truth be told the average Conservative Christian, in this dag and age, is as much a follower of the Father Above as a Muslim terrorist, with a bomb strapped on his back, who is on his way to meet up with his 70 virgins in heaven. The difference is that the Muslim actually knows that he isn’t a Christian.

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  2. Right on Hestia, well written and all true. It’s all been said piecemeal elsewhere because it is the truth, but this is a good summary and restatement.

    The misandrist preachers and church fathers, need to relearn various ignored aspects of their faith and true “balance”.

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  3. I wish there was something I could say … but Hestia has said it all.

    Whenever I start confusing “feminist” with “female”, all I have to do is remember Hestia!

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    • Amen, AntZ. Abso-freaking-lutely.

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    • Agreed. Hestia is a wonderful woman and we’re lucky to have her fighting beside us. Anytime people accuse me of misogyny,I think about the wonderful, kind, intelligent women it has been my supreme pleasure to interact with here in this movement and just laugh. I couldn’t hate these classy ladies,who exemplify true womanhood, any more than I could hate breathing. I’d give my right arm for some of these women, they have given so much to us.

      This was a great piece,I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

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  4. I am coming back to this. I have heard MRA’s occasionally, but not often assert that women either have no place in this movement or that they cannot adequately grasp the issues and further them appropriately.

    Hestia just demolished the latter of those misconceptions, and I would argue that the former is an idea that only paints us as a bunch of hypocrites.

    The MRM, as far as I have seen, is a movement of genuine justice, and it is predicated on the idea that feminism and misandry (if they are even separable) are ills that affect our entire society, women included.

    I am going to spend some time in the upcoming radio shows addressing the ill effects on women and girls that stem from feminist governance. Dr. T, another of the growing number of women who actually gets this stuff better than your average man, has graciously consented to help with this.

    In the meantime, my sincere thanks to Hestia for what I consider a landmark piece of work. Hers is A Voice for Men as surely as my own, or anyone else’s here.

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    • The only way the MRM will ever have a prayer is if women are included and involved. Many feminists believed that men had no place in the women’s movement. However, feminism was successful only because of the men that supported it. If men were actually as oppressive as feminists accused them of being, women would still be chained to the kitchen stove. But men tend to be not only protective, but supportive of women so when women wanted to enter the workforce, men accomodated them. They wouldn’t be there otherwise. The MRM will require the same sort of support, unless of course, it evolves into a shooting war. men would be likely to prevail in that scenario, but it wouldn’t be good for the human race as a whole.

      TDOM

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    • “I have heard MRA’s occasionally, but not often assert that women either have no place in this movement or that they cannot adequately grasp the issues and further them appropriately.”

      Good women are just exceedingly rare in western society.

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      • I agree with you, 100%. But I have to stipulate that that is enabled by the fact that good men in western culture are exceedingly rare. If they were not, we would not be a fledgling movement. Indeed, there would not be a need for a movement at all because the men that bent over backwards to let all this shit happen would have stopped it instead.

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    • Thank you for your kind words, Paul, and for the opportunity to share my writing here on your website. :)

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  5. Great job Hestia. Very well said.

    TDOM

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  6. I have no problem with the conservative ideal of men vis a vis women.
    It seems to have worked adequately for a millenia or two.
    I’ll accept the burden of manhood/fatherhood, if she’ll accept bearing my children and being my help mate for life to raise them. I’ll die for her and the kids.

    Where socon women get off track is selecting from a sort of “a la carte” menu of modern feminism to suit their particular whimsy at the time; throwing around their platitudes to either excuse bad behavior or avoid responsibility. And then shifting back to “traditional” as the situation that most benefits her dictates.

    They can’t help but being effected by the propaganda machine.
    It’s been and still is everywhere…even seeping into churches.

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    • Do not forget that feminism happened. It was women who demonized good men who did the best they can in their lives, lived peaceably with women and cared for them. Look how they were thanked for it!

      Am I the only one that believes there ought to be a wholesale condemnation of feminists and feminism for its villianizing/dehumanizing of men of the past?

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    • Feminist propaganda is not the only issue that can be blamed wrt how dramatically flawed the traditional model has become in the modern world. Our economy, society, and day to day lifestyles are incredibly different than what they used to be. Home used to be a place of economic production, not merely a place of consumption as it is today, making the provider/homemaker partnership far more equitable and satisfying than it is now.

      If I may be so bold the boredom and lack of meaningful work at home that came after the advent of labor saving devices and government schools likely contributed to the rise of feminism. Idle hands make for the devil’s work and so it went in the era when bored housewives were influenced by Frieda and cronies. There really was a “problem with no name” however embracing misandry was not the answer.

      Nowadays “home economics” refers to a relic from a bygone era, a silly class where women learned to cook & sew, rather than the idea that each household is an economic unit. If the home was to again be looked at as a productive entity better arrangements might be had between husbands and wives who wish to embrace the traditional model. I’ve blogged a bit about this here: http://thecomingnight.blogspot.com/2010/01/home-place-of-industry-of-consumption.html

      There are many ways this can be done. A homemaker wife could practice strict frugality, using her time wisely at home to find ways to cut spending, and put away a fair deal of money into savings and/or investments. A wife could work outside the home before children come and this money could be invested wisely to provide an income of sorts in the future. Home business opportunities abound in the age of the internet and the equivalent of a part-time income can be made during nap-time.

      Over the time the provider/homemaker has reigned supreme there have been changes in these roles to reflect different realities. The modern age is no different when it comes to re-envisioning roles to fit the needs of our age.

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      • I have been interested in observing the perversion of education or should I say the destruction of home based life education, and its replacement with prison based “government” schools and mass schooling in general, so I am sympathetic to the point that home economics has a whole lot to do with what is going on – the distortions past and present.
        I have observed, and experienced that people do not understand economics any longer. I myself had to relearn it. I too have come to the seeming conclusion – that a “provider/homemaker” can be very powerful even in the modern age. Although I doubt – post-feminism it is a mode MEN can accept, if they care about themselves at all. If women have turned wholesale against us before – what is the guarantee it wont happen again?

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        • There is no guarantee and for this reason men shouldn’t be faulted for not getting married and being genuinely concerned of the risks that do exist. My point is mainly that those who wish to embrace the “traditional” roles in the modern times that they take a good objective look at where we are and realize that we cannot go back, only forward at this point. Far more can be expected of women than the 1950s housewife model would have us believe.

          Whether one gets married or not it seems we have reached a point where everybody, men and women, needs to reflect on economics and realize there are alternatives to slavery and mindless consumption that can be embraced. “Lifemaking” might be a good name for this idea. The real value of time and money must be considered so that one can make a life for themselves.

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          • hmmm. I am chewing on the thought and I think it might work. The productive counter-ism to feminism “putting women to work-ism” can be the simple idea that women should make themselves useful.

            BTW, I am 100% Austrian.. how about you?

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            • I hope to blog more on this topic in the future. With the state the economy is there are likely many contemplating money matters and what they may mean to life.

              how about you?
              As American as apple pie. :)

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      • The imagination to re-invent their role, industrious and resourceful is something women need to learn. I know your type, I’ve met a few. Many try little businesses selling Avon or Tupperware, but at least they TRY. And they hold down the fort with little complaint.

        What form will the tipping point take to reform the union of the woman and the man? A bold novel or movie? An event? When women decide to start loving men again, will men take them back? Or will it be too late by then? Will there even be any genuine men left? How many generations of suspended development will we have to endure?

        When all hell breaks loose and there’s no grid, no supply lines, no running water…out of necessity it’ll have to happen. Women will be kind to men again, and men will still want sex. That’s the hope.

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        • I have no idea if this will be the answer for what ills our society, but there is currently a burgeoning movement coming about that is re-examining the roles of women, the home, and consumer culture. This debate has been largely inspired by the book Radical Homemakers and the “handmade revolution” that has come about as result of etsy.com. The local foods and homeschooling movements also tie into this idea.

          The Radical Homemakers book examines the feminist movement, how it was women–not men–who did not value domestic work, and how choices must be made between consumer culture and loving & caring for one’s family. A number of families are interviewed for the book who has chosen to eschew the status quo and make a different life for themselves. Quite a few of small scale farmers or urban homesteaders, others are in the pursuit of a “simpler” life and are making do with where they are. I recently asked a few women bloggers for their thoughts on this book and know that Alte@Traditional Catholicism and Terry@Breathing Grace are going to be sharing their reviews soon. I hope to have my own thoughts blogged in the near future too and am hosting IRL discussions about this book and the message of self-sufficiency in our home.

          IME there is a growing hunger to discuss and contemplate many important issues amongst thoughtful people. Last summer my husband and I began hosting twice monthly discussion group meetings to cover such topics as gender issues, politics, self-sufficient living, and the like. I also teach food preservation, cooking/baking, and seed saving classes in addition to running my home care products business and home educating our daughter. All of this speaks to a changing tide I think but if it’s one that will be more than just a small population is yet to be seen. The Pollyanna in me would like to hope so but the cynic tells me I’m being an idealistic twentysomething. ;)

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          • People like you doing this, and especially women, will be better psychologically prepared to endure hardship without the conveniences of modern life. When it happens it’ll be swift and most people won’t be able to adapt mentally.

            Women need to start asking themselves, “what’s more important, a shoe sale at Nordstroms, or family?” I think we’re starting to see that; people backing off spending money, effecting sales tax revenues at the local level, malls closing.

            We’re also seeing school districts closing elementary schools in droves, which usually brings out the latina moms in droves to protest…see where this is going…? The white middle class is no longer breeding.

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            • “Women need to start asking themselves, “what’s more important, a shoe sale at Nordstroms, or family?””

              So true, and all the more difficult and unfortunate that women are now so stringently socialized to only ask, “What’s in it for me, baby?”

              Traditionalism was a method to put constraints of some fashion on hypergamy.

              That gig is up, and when the due come payable on it, a whole lot of hurting is going to happen.

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            • When it happens it’ll be swift and most people won’t be able to adapt mentally.
              You are right about that. Things go bad frighteningly fast. I grew up a few city blocks away from Detroit and know all to well how quickly an area can go south after the tipping point is reached. My parents were fortunate to sell their home and get us out of the area before property values tanked but many of our neighbors weren’t. The town is unrecognizable today, a completely different place in every way.

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              • Oh no, by “swift” I mean a matter of weeks. From modern comforts to scrambling for food sources, gathering firewood and fending off marauding bands of hoodlums.

                If the middle east collapses gas will be $20 a gallon, if you can get it. Inflation will run rampant. Stay away from urban centers, and don’t expect cops to protect you.

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    • “I have no problem with the conservative ideal of men vis a vis women.”

      But as Hestia points out when she correctly calls this shit “heresy”, what she is describing is not truly Christian, and outside of Britain and the US, not truly conservative. Traditionally women were not consdidered angels, they were considered slightly demonic. thatw as as wrong as demonizing men, but if you want to talk about tradition – well, that’s tradition.

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  7. Good post.

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  8. This is excellent. I think the traditional women are sometimes worse than the feminists precisely because they keep their stuff hidden. Their manipulations are harder to detect.

    Good job, Hestia!

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  9. The Conservative Christian Feminist viewpoint can be found at Christian Satire sites like:
    Betty Bowers, who is like a Stephen Colbert (Colbert Report) for Christian Conservatism
    http://www.bettybowers.com/
    Betty Bowers Explains Traditional Marriage to Everyone Else
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw
    Associated Betty Bowers site:
    http://landoverbaptist.org/

    On satire:
    http://www.jedword.com/2010/09/25/satire-the-use-of-irony-sarcasm-ridicule-or-the-like-in-exposing-denouncing-or-deriding-vice-folly-etc/

    “Satire is a dangerous form of humor. Whether employed in stand-up comedy, writing, or drama, satire requires something that other genres of expression don’t: the person experiencing satire must be capable of understanding it and have an appreciation for it. Some might say that the appreciation for satire is an acquired taste. Some people need satire explained to them in order to understand the irony of the words or illusions. (That’s like asking an artist to explain what appears on the canvas.)”

    IMHO, sometimes the extreme views and the true nature of feminists can be exposed in no other way except through satire.

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  10. Excellent post, Hestia. Seriously, 5 out of 5 stars.

    And your continued MRM support has raised a perpetual question among us: Keeping women out? After all, we face enemies on all sides: Progressives and conservative are the main threats, and you eloquently prosecute the letter. But then there is the NAWALT part of our lexicon.

    I’m generally in agreement with that sentiment in the context of personal relationships with women. The metaphor of picking up a snake (poisonous or not?) seems to apply.

    But in the context of our version of social justice, how can we turn away from sympathetic women? How can we afford to put up a “no girls allowed” sign on our club house? If we do that, we move our own time line 20-50% farther in the future.

    Think about it: Who could be more convincing, when we’re trying to change a mind? A guy arguing against feminism? He could easily be accused of sour grapes…not wanting to give up his ‘male priviledge’ etc. and then dismissed.

    But a gal? Harder to argue with.

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  11. Regarding men as perverts- I believe circumcision, whether religion-driven or not, is primarily a way to curb male sexuality by eliminating a great deal of a man’s sensitive genital tissue.

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  12. This brand of misandry may be the most devious & hypocritical of them all in the Misandry chapter in the Bullshit Playbook that women run. I say this because of the religious undertones that take the typical shaming tactics that women pull to flat out intellectual & ethical slavery. It’s trading in hemorrhoids for cancer. This type of shit is same bullshit that people Torquemada and all the other famed hypocrites play on to pull off major league fuckery on the unwary, unaware, and the kool-aid chuggers. The idea that men are inept simpletons, who’re the source of all that’s ill in the world, and are also pussyholic pawns that are bound to be used by the “strong” and “childish” woman needs Jesus-level help & training camp to be worthy to even be called horseshit.

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  13. Taken from The Daily Mail British newspaper column by Giles Coren – Thursday, January 27, 2011.

    “And the prejudice festers. Harriet Harman says that men caused the banking crisis, and the harridan legions nod their heads. ‘If women ruled the world’, they cry, ‘there would be no wars’. What nonsense. Women are far meaner, more brutal, aggressive, small-minded, jealous, petty and venal than any man”.

    Truth seems to be slowly and gradually (this article was on page 41) entering the mainstream.

    You said Paul, in reply to me on another thread, that you believed Men’s Rights Activism is likely to remain a fringe activity.

    Without a crystal ball, who is to say for sure? But I am optimistic. You might not be fully aware of the recent feminist lynching of two sports presenters that has taken place here in the UK during the past week. But I have spent a couple of hours reading through the online comments sections of several newspapers – including the Guardian, which is a very left wing example of the mainstream press here in the UK.

    All I will say is that the official interpretation of journalists is often the polar opposite of a far larger proportion of their readers than many might suppose.

    The most heartwarming statement, in a response to Giles Coren’s article, actually came from a female poster commenting about the firing of the sports presenters whilst British female comedienne, Jo Brand, is receiving BAFTA comedy awards for delivering such televised lines as – ‘What is the best way to a man’s heart? – with a kitchen knife’. What is that useless bit of skin on the end of a penis called? – a man, etc.

    ‘I feel ashamed to be a woman’ the poster said.

    A decent woman rightly feels shame on behalf of her gender. Indeed she briefly, but perfectly, sums everything up about the behavior of women when given power without fear of reproach or moral responsibility.

    The blinkers that blind people to the hypocrisy and open hatefulness of the modern women’s movement are coming off the eyes of more and more people.

    And I believe that many of the political and workplace ‘manginas’, you refer to, who have added to this evil and have been a barrier to any reaction against it are essentially shallow freeloaders who do not really care about women or anybody in society. And once the blinkers about feminism start coming off more and more people and different messages are being heard, many of them, purely for their own benefit, will start doing a retake on their own position and about what they want others to be hearing them say – which for them is purely a case of ‘what is best for my own back’, not ‘what is morally right”.

    I know that there is an army of unthinking and instinctive ‘White Knights’ out there, along with the politically brainwashed (as well as some who just seem to get some sort of psychological or sexual kick out of it, e.g. ‘I welcome our new female overlords’ – one newspaper comment poster).

    But once things start changing, the misguided chivalry of the white knights will naturally begin to redirect itself. Enlightenment provided by the unrepressed release of objective truth and evidence will rinse out the minds of many of the brainwashed (as has happened during any post-era of fanatical idealism). And the warped minded, though forever warped minded, will be driven back underground.

    As I commented on another topic, the zetgeist of one age is eventually replaced by the zeitgeist of another. The inevitablility of this is further highlighted when the age in question is dominated by ideals that are fundamentally dishonest and conspire to make everyone, en masse, bloody unhappy. As I said, such things have a ‘sell-by-date’.

    TOTALLY EPIC. Epic or Lame: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  14. Hestia,

    Here’s what I think. I think, at its core, Christianity turns men into spiritual second class citizens.

    It’s simple. What human came closest to God and through what biological process did this happen?

    Christian women have a spiritual identity rooted in the experience of the female body: pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood.

    Christian men have no equivalent spiritual identity rooted in the experience of the male body. The male christian identity revolves around service to their implied spiritual superiors, women; either directly in the form of their wife or indirectly(priests) in spreading the gospel that places women at the moral center of spirituality.

    In fact it’s even worse then that.

    Why was the Immaculate conception immaculate? Because it didn’t involve a penis. Every Christian woman could be just like the Virgin Mary except for one demonic presence in her life: her husband’s penis and the requirement for intercourse that the demon rod implies.

    Not only does that mean that humans are divided into two spiritual camps: those that can experience God through a natural process of their bodies and those whose natural processes damn them to Hell(should they be used in any way but in service of those possessing spiritually superior natural processes; and even so they remain a marker of our fallen state) but it ruthlessly exploits men’s psychological need to differentiate from women.

    Instead of allowing men to root their masculine identities in their bodies(as we see with many male dominated pagan faiths), at pain of Eternal Damnation the Church coerces them to root it in ‘sacrifice to the spiritually superior.’ They camouflage this by offering men a token role as ‘head of the household’. And thus forge chains of shame and brittle egotism to bind men to serve women and Christianity itself.

    Is it any wonder that religion of female-centric morality/spirituality eventually spawned the disaster we see around us?

    After all, where does the sacrifice end?

    Epic or Lame: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

    • Why was the Immaculate conception immaculate? Because it didn’t involve a penis.

      The idea of immaculate conception comes out of ancient Catholic dogma, not the scriptures. The idea of a virgin conceiving wasn’t so much about sex being “dirty” (although the ancient Jews had some bizarre rules about that, like Leviticus 12:2), it was more about the miracle of something happening that defied all known natural law. It was a way of making the Messiah more miraculous. It is also not the way all other Christian churches teach. Although, you do hit on a valid point of many “Christian” teachings running from penises as if they’re the devil’s own.

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      • “The idea of immaculate conception comes out of ancient Catholic dogma, not the scriptures. ”

        The scriptures come out of the dogmas of the original church, which was universal (catholic). That’s what makes them valid, that the Holy spirit put them out through the teaching authoeity of the church, the entire church.

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        • The scriptures were compiled by early religious scholars and leaders from previous writings, and the idea of immaculate conception is an interpretation of the scriptures that were gathered.

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      • “It was a way of making the Messiah more miraculous.”

        Getting rid of the involvement of natural male virility made the Messiah more miraculous?

        The excision of male sexuality from the mythology seems rather suspect to me.

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        • Getting rid of the involvement of natural male virility made the Messiah more miraculous?

          No, circumventing of the natural process of conception, which does indeed involve male virility, is what made the Messiah more miraculous. It is frequently touted as something that cannot conceivably (no pun intended) happen, but it did.

          There is a fine line between misandry and defiance of natural law in the matter of conceiving a “miraculous” child, and lots of gray area as to how much the original intent of the idea was to simply reveal something that couldn’t happen as opposed to saying that “sex is dirty.” The ancient (and modern) Catholic Church holds to the latter view, in my estimation. I went to a church that held a different view, that did not teach immaculate conception or “original sin,” and does not in modern times teach that conceiving children is “dirty.”

          To the contrary, the Mormon religion believes that conceiving children will go on and on and on in the eternities, between heavenly married couples. When I served a mission for the church, I encountered more than one Christian who thought that was a perverted idea.

          The Mormon church has its own misinterpretation of perversions, but not in the matter of virgin birth. My point is that not all of Christianity teaches immaculate conception, or thinks of married couples having children as dirty or misandric.

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          • Going back to your earlier statement:

            Although, you do hit on a valid point of many “Christian” teachings running from penises as if they’re the devil’s own.

            Saint Augustine. The demon rod.

            The point remains, even where the involvement of penises in the conception of children is considered morally neutral, there still does not exist an experience rooted in the male body that has been elevated to ‘spiritual union with the divine’ in Christianity.

            No, circumventing of the natural process of conception, which does indeed involve male virility, is what made the Messiah more miraculous.

            What I was getting at was that the entire religion is founded upon the marginalization of male sexuality. In some cases this marginalization is apparently ‘mild’–oh, well, the point is that it was against natural law–and in some cases it is severe–the demon rod and source of original sin.

            Where does man unite with the divine through his function as husband/father/lover in Christianity?

            Oh, right, in sacrificing for his wife.

            My point is that not all of Christianity teaches immaculate conception, or thinks of married couples having children as dirty or misandric.

            Not all Christians believe that Mary was a virgin that conceived thru the word of the Holy Spirit? Okay…

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            • Not all Christians believe that Mary was a virgin that conceived thru the word of the Holy Spirit?

              Belief in Mary’s virginity is different than immaculate conception, which is a Catholic doctrine, based on another Catholic doctrine of “original sin.” From Wikipedia:

              “The Immaculate Conception of Mary is, according to Catholic doctrine, the conception of the Virgin Mary without any stain (“macula” in Latin) of Original Sin [emphasis in the original].”

              But you know what? This is such a fine distinction, bordering on semantics, that I’m going to concede the whole argument because it’s one more way of denigrating the entire male sex via our sex drives. So thank you for ignoring semantics and details, and cutting right to the heart of the matter: a far better way to argue.

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              • No, you’re right. My bad.

                I think in pretty broad strokes so sometimes I loose track of details like that.

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                • Not your “bad” at all.

                  Virgin Birth/Immaculate Conception

                  Two sides of the same coin:

                  “No penis required!”

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            • Where does man unite with the divine through his function as husband/father/lover in Christianity?

              And–through some massive coincidence to be sure–those are precisely the roles in which men are currently being shat all over in our society.

              I think I should also amend the list:

              husband/father/lover and, simply, male human being.

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          • Then again, the Mormon Church does teach a great many principles that seem antithetical to the male sex drive, and in re-reading your comments, I am starting to see something different, so now I’m going to shut up.

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  15. I had the opportunity last night, for the first time in my life, to hear my favorite piece of music, “The Rite of Spring,” played live by a fantastic orchestra. When they were finished, I found myself shouting, “Bravo!” over and over again.

    I feel like shouting it once more: Bravo, Hestia!

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    • Thank you, BR. Your music experience sounds splendid. I’m a bit green with envy living far far away from any decent culture right now. :)

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  16. typhonblue writes:-
    “Here’s what I think. I think, at its core, Christianity turns men into spiritual second class citizens.”

    As a traditional Christian myself I have to draw attention to the evidence of the retreat of faith throughout western societies over the 40-50 years and the rise of the fiercely subjective and selfish reasoning represented by political correctness and, its figurehead, radical feminism.

    What actually goes on in churches, and is preached from many pulpits today, does not reflect real Christianity. As C.S. Lewis once said, ‘a knowledgeable theologian in not necessarily a good Christian, and a good Christian is not necessarily a knowledgeable theologian.’

    I am very familiar with most of his writing. And I can confidently say that if C.S. Lewis, the greatest Christian intellectual of the past century, were alive today no one would find the modern women’s movement more repugnant than he. Additionally the devout Christian, G.K. Chesterton, a chief inspiration for Lewis, directly warned of the malevolent influences of feminism in his book ‘The Everlasting Man’ – 1925.

    It is not Christianity that attempts to turn men into second class citizens. It is the phonies who distort its message who are responsible – as has happened before with different ideologies . The Bible itself declares ‘woman shall not not have dominion over man’. Feminism is the antithesis of the word of God.

    I felt I had to say something. I wanted to steer clear of religious issues. That’s not why I am here. I comment elsewhere about such things.

    I am just another contributor and MRA activist so perhaps I have no right to suggest the following. But I will. Keep away from religious comment. Critical or supportive. I know that I have made reference to my own faith in a previous comment or two. I slap my own wrist.

    But you are trying to make as many people as possible aware of the injustices in society that are being inflicted upon men in this world – all men. Whatever their religious convictions, strong, indifferent, none, as I see it if the MRA movement starts taking a particular line with religion then it will start closing doors on people.

    Don’t hesitate to shout me down if you think I am wrong. I am a newcomer, still learning. And I have a thick skin.

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    • The Bible itself declares ‘woman shall not not have dominion over man’. Feminism is the antithesis of the word of God.

      When you posit that men’s highest spiritual calling is sacrifice for women–in fact it is this very sacrifice that makes a man ‘dominant’ over his wife–then were, exactly, does the sacrifice end?

      Feminism presumes male sacrifice and female-centric moral authority. It didn’t create it; it presumes it at it’s core. These two social drivers had to have existed prior to feminism or feminism would have gone nowhere.

      Incidentally, a man may respect his own ‘headship’ but nowhere does it say he has to respect the ‘headship’ of other men (if it does exist it doesn’t have near the resonance of other key concepts.) So why can’t a wealthy politician, respecting his own headship, cut off the ‘headship’ of other men so that he might anoint himself the bull of a harem of female voters? Or a priest–respecting his own headship–eviscerate the spiritual ‘headship’ of other men so that he might be seen as alpha among his female flock?

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    • There’s a post on this site up above this one, about a video everyone should watch…

      In it, the speaker posits that being ‘remarkable’ and speaking to those who care about a subject most are the way of the marketing future. I completely agree since that is the way of the internet.

      Also, he makes the point that talking to one of these people can make them an evangelist for your product…or cause.

      But it’s important to note that this engagement does not have to be positive at all. It simply has to grab their attention. Of course, getting a person to buy your product is easier if they have warm feelings for it.

      But then comes the next ‘hidden fact’.

      We are not aimed at ‘converting’ ANYONE. We exist as a movement to get people QUESTIONING things again. We are humans, and we get things wrong, a lot. There’s nothing at all to suggest we are in any way better than Feminists as far as proscriptions for society.

      Which is why it’s a positive that we are fact-based, and simply place the facts under people’s noses, and demand they think. Reach their own conclusions, so to speak.

      All we do, is hold people’s feet to the fire. Giving people slack is what led to this mess in the first place. It may be counter intuitive to you, but sometimes, being aggressive, even offensive, is an effective strategy for engagement.

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  17. Thank you for this great article Hestia!

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