Mary Dejevsky: These welfare reforms won't end our costly sick-note culture

It is highly doubtful that even after these changes, benefits in Britain will fall to the point where low-paid jobs become attractive without some form of top-up

Switch off the television lights and the advance sales pitch, and there was a very British reticence about how the Government presented its benefit reform bill. Iain Duncan Smith can argue his case with passion when he wants to, but he was not in zealot mode yesterday. Still less was David Cameron, who almost invited dissent by forecasting political battles to come. As a former correspondent in the United States when Bill Clinton's welfare reforms came in, I wanted to shout at the television: "Come on, guys: once more, with feeling..."

Official trepidation is understandable. Any government messes with benefits at its peril; especially one led by Conservatives still smarting from the public's affection for its forests. If you are broaching thoroughgoing reform of the sort that the Universal Credit potentially means, sweet reason, and an assurance that there will be no "cash" losers during the transition, may indeed be the wise approach. Stressing that almost 3 million people could gain, while far fewer would lose suggests that – unlike with the forests – everyone had done their homework.

I rather think, though, that Middle England could have stomached something stronger. The distinction between the Government's cool, incentives-driven approach (everyone will be better-off working), and the American fire-and-brimstone prescription (you will work, or else...) was striking. So was the long lead time: nothing at all will happen until 2013, with a majority of claimants – probably – inside the new system by 2016. That is five years and an election away: you are in government, guys, get on with it.

The United States is, of course, a very different society with very different assumptions, and there are many areas of the 1990s American welfare reforms that would not transfer here. This, at least, the Government has understood. Some of the distinctions emerged graphically when the BBC's Newsnight sent Lawrence Mead, one of the gurus of the US programme, to Liverpool.

In his report, broadcast earlier this week, he noted that although unemployment was high, Liverpool did not have the air of a depressed city – as it would do in the US. He omitted to conclude that this is largely because the social safety net is fixed higher. He also noted the extent to which those claiming benefits regarded the money as an entitlement; shorn of social censure or shame; it was something they were owed. This is debatable; less contestable is that working Americans have infinitely less sympathy for non-working Americans than British tax-payers do for (most) non-working Britons.

Such differences certainly aided the introduction of reforms in the United States that, from a British perspective, could seem ruthless. While exact arrangements varied from state to state, there were – and still are – reports of mothers having to rise before dawn, leave their children with a childminder, drive an hour or more (in an old banger supplied by charity) to a minimum-wage job – and back again. Like much about poverty in the US, such duress would be unacceptable here.

Generally, too, the level of welfare payments was, and remains, far lower in the United States – or paid in kind, through food stamps. This, too, facilitated reform. It is highly doubtful that even after the changes, benefits in Britain will fall to the point where relatively low-paid jobs will become attractive without some form of top-up. "Making work pay" in a low-wage, low-skills society (such as ours has become) is difficult, especially when it is believed that children should be cushioned from poverty. The fault here is less overgenerous benefits than unrealistically low pay; taxpayers are effectively subsidising employers.

Like the United States, we have a minimum wage. Unlike the United States, successive British governments have implicitly accepted that this is not enough for even quite a small family to live on. A family with at least one low-earner is likely to be better off on benefits. And the £25 a week by which IDS says people are guaranteed to be better off, will – I suspect – be nothing like enough. I heard several people interviewed yesterday who said, in essence, that a premium of even £50 a week would not be enough to compensate for the time that was currently "theirs".

And this highlights one lesson that could be transferable from the US – although it is not one the Government is "selling"– yet. A key element there was training in "job-readiness" – how to behave, how to dress, how to be organised enough to be employable. These and other courses included rigorous attendance requirements, without which benefits were stopped. Some states also introduced Workfare schemes, which made people work a fixed number of hours for their benefits. Here, ministers are tiptoeing around "conditionality". In time, refusing three jobs could result in the docking of – some – benefits for a maximum of three years. This seems on the unambitious side.

Like it or not, a reason why welfare rolls fell so spectacularly in the United States – indeed, the main reason, according to opponents of the reforms – is not because so many more people found jobs, but because the attendance requirements deterred so many from claiming. Here, the Government's desire to emphasise the carrot at the expense of the stick can be understood – at this stage – but the so-called "hassle factor" is set to remain mild. There seems no appetite for giving Jobcentres, or anyone else, an additional role as enforcers. Why not?

Something similar applies to the so-called sick-note culture. Those genuinely unable to work have been scared by lobbyists, supposedly on their side, that they will lose their allowances, even as two pilot schemes have shown how many recipients do not meet criteria for long-term disability. Is there not an argument now for accelerating the review process?

The US welfare reform offers two other lessons. The first is one that IDS, at least, clearly knows by heart: any reform worth the name will have a considerable upfront cost. There may be earlier pay-offs, in terms of social justice and national morale – but any savings to the Exchequer will take longer. The other, I am not sure has been absorbed, but is the oldest and most basic of all: when the buffeting starts, there is no substitute for political will.

m.dejevsky@independent.co.uk

More from Mary Dejevsky

  • julianzzz
    Yes why are we copying the USA when it is further down the pan than we are? Are we confusing aggression and size with energy and success?
  • julianzzz
    The undeserving poor? Yes they come from exclusive public schools where they learn how to acquire moral poverty, no scruples and a complete lack of Christian virtues. those that know the price of everything and the value of nothing, they are poor indeed!
  • julianzzz
    It hasn't happened in the USA, there jobs have gone to China, where taxes are even lower, the race to the bottom will only bring death and destruction. The happiest and most successful countries in Europe, the Nordic nations have a high tax regime and everyone there is much better off for it.
  • julianzzz
    Why on earth would we copy the USA? It's a failing economy and busted society. The only part of it's public sector that works well is it's feather-bedded military, protected from cuts like a Socialist state in a privatised desert. The only thing it's "free" enterprise failed culture does efficiently is deliver riches to the top, ever more elite few per cent. It's also very good at offshoring jobs, over exploiting resources, degrading the status of the average "Joe" and crippling it's political process with massive lobbying by the big corporations. EU inefficency is nothing compared with the USA. The only reason they have survived so far is that the Dollar is the currency of last resort, they can print money for as long as their Chinese friends let them...
  • julianzzz
    Of course the review process has resulted in a lot of people losing benefits, have you seen the questions? I have, they are designed to ignore many illnesses, so extended families have had to take in relatives whilst they fight an appeal. We pay medical professionals extremely well to make a diagnosis. Now we are paying privatised pen pushers to ignore these diagnosies, and appeals courts to reinstate them. What a farrago! I thought throwing people on the dole was cheap at �60 a week, now, not content with off-shoring jobs and avoiding tax, the big corporations want to avoid all social, health and pension costs. If they want to trade in this country they should support our society. Sometimes I think it would be better if we lost all the big business "free" enterprise companies and relied on small businesses, food brought locally and clothes made in the UK. Now that would be efficient, no fat cat rake offs, lower transport and warehouse costs, no middlemen profits, full employment, lower dole, what's not to like? Why not go local and green?
  • markwri86
    I love highly paid journalists pontificating mightily on a benefits system of which they have little if any experience, and total amounts that the receipients take home each week would barely keep them in Chablis. I'm not sure whether Mary is aware WE ARE NOT THE USA and our traditions in welfare tend more towards Mainland Western Europe than the USA, which for some reason best known to itself, is willing to tolerate citizens living cheek by jowel in grotesque levels of inequality, although, shamefully, we tolerate higher levels of inequality than most of the rest of Europe. Now the conservatives are back, watch it soar again............�67 per week for jobseekers allowance, is that too much Mary.....you spend more on vegetables each week............shame on you, not those unfortunate enough to be unemployed!
  • dontalk2her
    I think the problem with Ms Dejevsky is that she can't empathise; her pieces are therefore sterile, arrogant and unkind. Mary, this is Britain. We would rather be sloppy, not very well off and a bit indecisive than have innocent children with not enough to eat. I wish you ill in the names of hundreds of thousands of brave mothers whose guts, determination and inventiveness you and the fool in Downing Street want to try further. Shame on you.
  • bogwart
    I'm still confused about your nationality. You give the impression of being an American Libertarian, and seem to regard yourself with the self-importance of that tribe, you spell like an American yet speak with an English viewpoint. You have to know that "your" taxes belong to HMG; you do not have the option of deciding to what purposes they are devoted. So whether that money goes towards teaching riffraff to dance or whether it is misspent on the defence industry is nothing to do with you. The same applies the world over. You - and I - can sit and whinge from here until the end of time and it will make no differences. "Should" and "could" and "would" count for nothing. One thing with which I will never agree is that "people are mainly just lazy". That says more about you and your attitude than anything else.
  • bogwart
    All you're sugesting is to sweep the problem under the carpet. Here, in the US and probably in the rest of the 'first' world the deckchairs are being busily moved when it comes to the unemployed. In the US people who have given up looking for non-existent jobs are simply removed from the statistics, so for example the actual figure for those without work is 22.7%. As for people moving Eastwards loooking for work try using a few more brain cells to work out why. The most recent influx of Poles, for instance, coming here for work is being replaced by the same people returning to their home countries as real wage increases take effect there. There can be only one outcome for this, and if you want to compete with people on wage costs you're on a hiding to nothing. This patronising guff about people owing you nothing may go down well over the pond, where they love to whinge about the Federal government taking all "their" money for scroungers. Again, I don't know about you but I'd rather my taxes were used to help the people of this country than to spend them killing people around the world who haven't harmed us. This is not a problem capable of an easy fix, except in hindsight, so why do you assume that a few smug words from the direction of the saloon bar will solve the puzzle? Your solutions are as simplistic as those of the Mekon, who seems to be due for a bonus if he can "disappear" all these pesky workshy scroungers.
  • dydor
    Which ones are lazy? Not you obviously, but you can identify the undeserving poor for the rest of us?
  • suicidalcanary
    Plenty of us have felt for ages that people like Ms Dejefsky would like nothing better than to ship us off to some final solution, after all, to them we are useless burdens and an affront to 'hard working' taxpayers. It is tough faced with this daily barrage of hate-speech, but hopefully the tide will have to turn at some point. Quite a few clinicians I have spoken to recently are pretty shocked at the language that is increasingly being used against the disabled, and part of me clings on to a hope that the people of the UK are essentially decent and will wake up and realise that they have been duped into scrapping with each other whilst the enemy makes off with all the loot.
  • deep_dish
    It is highly doubtful that even after these changes, benefits in Britain will fall to the point where low-paid jobs become attractive without some form of top-up That's because low paid jobs are already not much above benefit levels and benefit levels in this country are amongst the lowest in Europe. Successive petty, mean spirited Governments - certain in the knowledge that technology, downsizing, offshoring etc has reduced the number of available jobs and their quality and that unemployment is not only unavoidable but mostly not the fault of those who suffer it - have nevertheless chosen to castigate and punish the unemployed. They are 'lazy', 'workshy' (this coming from politicians that have longer holidays than primary school children)/ 'idle, scrounging scum' and so on. The bosses who exploit them must be paid vast sums of money and be let off tax or such talent will simply leave - the people who actually earn the money are kicked hither and yon, poorly paid, rights ignored, unrepresented, without job security, pay levels sinking etc. We don't need welfare reform - we need political and social reform.
  • What you are proposing, LordDyslexic, is an exponential increase in self-justified criminality and lawlessness at the bottom end of society (the top end is already awash). And if the minimum wage were scrapped to allow people to be more competitive, so should all laws constraining the natural rights of economically powerless individuals to agree to act in unison be scrapped too.
  • Iloveisrael
    can you believe that the rate/hour for a doctor who 30 years experience is 17/hour after tax ? this NHS rate. doctors will do like Egyptian soon.
  • DeadReckoning
    Meanwhile the roadside verges etc are covered in litter. Surely those on long-term (more than 6 months) could do some unpaid community work?
  • Merlin007
    Better still we could put them on ships and sell them as slaves to foreign countries- think of it as reparation for the slave trade. A pound each in a West African market.
  • MissKubelik
    Why stop there. Why don't we indenture the unemployed into slavery then we won't have to worry about re-training or JSA. We can get them to do all the shit jobs forever and we'll never have to concern ourselves with concepts like collective social responsibility or perpetuating cultural poverty again. Fascist!
  • AIM1VOICE
    It would possibly be kinder to ship all of the sick and disabled off to the gas chambers right now, now that it appears that 'we lobbyists' have scared them. Nothing at all to do with a Works Capability Assessment that is not fit for purpose, wrapped around a medical model that show no understanding at all of conditions like autism. Statistics can be made to show whatever we want them to show, and here in the UK we want disabled people to go away and hide quietly under a rock somewhere out of view. Ask my two sons if they enjoy being disabled and not being able to participate in life never mind a job and then really listen to them when they reply to your question Mary. Walk a mile in our shoes - then again you probably believe that we should be walking around in our bare feet.
  • Of course there must be help for those who REALLY need it. However, it seems to me that something must be done to combat the attitude that the state must prop us up. If you can work, you should do so. I unexpectedly found myself a single parent at the age of 23 and when I went on maternity leave, I was horrified to find I would have been better off jacking in my job and going on to benefits!! THIS IS WRONG!! It is not the job of the state to look after me, it is MY job to look after me. I continued working and was very hard up for a few years but I know that was the only proper thing to do. My son is now 6, I have a career and he is growing up knowing the importance of hard work. We must learn the lesson that hard work is the key to growth, and the sense that we must take care of ourselves. I would be ashamed to rely on handouts.
  • Merlin007
    No it wouldn't -more people would be working in better higher paid jobs and be well able to care for all their relatives- as civilised peoples do. The sole reason for benefits is to create an exploitable unterklass. But then it needs brains to see that worker exploitation. So it will no doubt elude you.
  • semibreve
    And then crime figures would increase-- children die, as they don't ask to be born, and you might like to do some voluntary work of clearing the streets of the dead and dying! When people write utter rubbish like you, what else do you expect from responses! think before you write-- in fact,thinking would be a start
  • EliteStryver
    Couldn't agree more, however, let's start with the really expensive benefits to the rich and there's such a wide list to choose from. Charitable status for public 'private' schools, government supported tax havens, taxpayer-funded bank bailouts, low tax and tax exemption on capital gains, rigged markets, insider dealing et cetera. In fact with all the additional revenue we might be able to afford to be charitable to save our own necks if not for more altruistic motives.
  • Ken
    'Labour tried increasing the number of people going to university' Really? It was a Conservative government that decided to rebrand polytechnics as universities in 1992 - a better alternative would have been to shut them down, thereby saving people money and disappointment up front. I graduated from university before Labour came to power, and the jobs I did were ones I could have done without a degree. Far from turning my nose up at them, I was told by one call centre that I'd think the work was beneath me - work I was willing to do. Governments of both parties created a class of people who are overqualified. 'Otherwise how can you explain the millions that have come from Eastern Europe and overseas to do jobs?' While it's true that people from outside the EU working here have to work and pay their own way, many of the people from other EU countries working in the UK could and did claim benefits (why else would local councils have signs in Polish?) People from Commonwealth countries may not expect any access to public funds, but if they did have access to them, they'd certainly take advantage of them, just as New Zealanders in Australia (the so-called 'Bondi Bludgers') did until ten years ago. If you want an idea of what unemployed British people would be like without a wefare state, don't look to the US, but to South Africa, where there is a white underclass that once benefited from having jobs in the bloated public service under apartheid. Unlike their black counterparts, who will sell newspapers, drinks, or toys from the roadside, they have no business acumen at all, they just brandish bits of cardboard saying they've got a family to feed.
  • Can you imagine trying to carry out that plan in 'head in the sand Britain'.
  • lordsandiwch
    If that's what requires you to be competitive (due to your low skills) so be it. However, not quite sure that what you say is correct as that would be illegal. Naturally the minimum wage should be scrapped to allow people to be more competitive. Wages are too high compared to our competitors.
  • lordsandiwch
    I agree with you on the bankers case. I think it's right for HSBC and Barclays to do as they please (as they got no State help) but I think it's disgusting that tax payer owned banks are paying huge bonuses. However, that has nothing to do with lack of low-skilled jobs or welfare dependency which has existed for a long time. That's simply due to the rise of the emerging economies and the deterioration of our work culture and education.
  • lordsandiwch
    Well, end to start, military expenditure is a fraction of that of welfare. Indeed, to some extent is beneficial to our economy since one of the few high tech industries we have is defense (think of BAE, Rolls royce and a host of SMEs doing electronic equipment) as it can't be outsourced. Certainly the Iraq war was probably a waste of money, much better to sell our weapons for others to use, however that's a different argument. Regarding my taxes, i'm not suggesting they should be spend on something else (ie defense) i'm simply suggesting that I should keep a larger share of my own income. I'm not really interested in maintaining other people to live of welfare. If you need to work for minimum wage to be competitive due to your lack of skills so be it. This country is full of opportunities (you have free education, help to study at university, the open university, FE colleges, adult education, etc) to improve yourself, people are mainly just lazy, we have a culture of instant gratification. I'm quite happy for my taxes to go to peole that have degenerative deceases, serious (and real) disabilities, and so on. that's something they can't change, it' beyong their control or they were born with them. However, your lack of skills is perfectly changeable, moving to another city (or indeed another country, use some of the benefits the EU brings us!) are courses of action available to the unemployed. Help has to have a limit, and it shouldn't allow you to live comfortably, it should allow you to survive while you get a job. Finally, children are responsability of their parents. If their own parents can't be bothered with taking responsability for their actions, why do I need to pick up the tab? Yes, save your words if you're going to point out my selfishness, I am selfish. I demand responsibility for my solidarity, and it has specific limits, and so what? I'm entitled to give as much (or a little) of my resources as I wish. More and more people are going to feel this way, and the idea of community is going to keep on being eroded until there's a sense of personal responsibility rather than of entitlement. In other words, if you feel you're not getting value for money you will support less taxation. Finally, the reduction of the availability of low-skilled jobs is due to globalization and the rise of the emerging economies. This is only going to get worse in the future so we might as well reform now or never. Low-skilled people will have to live worse than their parents (who faced less competition) unless they become skilled.
  • Merlin007
    All benefits should be scrapped. The resultant fall in taxation would have a huge effect on growth and there would be jobs.
  • DavidBird
    This comment is unreadable jargon. Look at the words: most common English words are short.
  • DavidBird
    This comment is unreadable jargon. Look at the words: most common English words are short.
  • DorothyErskine67
    I wasn't particularly recommending anyone else's solutions: only pointing out that when you're making major changes, it might be a good idea to look at what other countries have done that might work for us, rather than wasting time writing an article that only compares us with the US. I don't really expect UK politicians or journalists to compare the UK with Canada or Australia. It's so difficult to maintain the British sense of superiority when we do that.
  • lordsandiwch
    Still, why should we fund those people that constantly live on benefits? If there are no jobs in their city, move to a place where there are jobs. If the Poles can move thousands of miles to a new country, why can't natives do it? Nobody owes you a living. Benefits should be a payment based on how much NI you have paid. If you have paid nothing you should get nothing
  • Orwellsarmy
    Here's an idea. If your desire to see people in work is absolute, then you would have no problem with paying the taxes that will regenerate destitute areas, which will provide decent work instead of cheap labour. Once decent jobs are available, there will be no problem 'persuading' people out of welfare and into work. But, for people like Mary, it is greed which is absolute. She would force people to work as slaves so her comfortable lifestyle could be cossetted further. Mary - symbolic of the British disease of the comfortable; greedy, lack of empathy, me first and only, let them rot. I find such people much more morally repugnant than anyone who doesn't declare the odd tenner to the authorities while on benefit. America is a socially moral desert, third world in many ways. That we are reluctant to become them is one of the few scraps of hope left.
  • EliteStryver
    There's really no mileage to be gained in comparing the relative merits of shrinking welfare provision when reactionary neoliberal economic ideology remains entrenched in both countries. Continuing covert neocolonial expansion under the guise of globalization in addition to privatization, debt peonage and raging inequality is a catastrophe that is beginning to unravel as the inconsistencies between unregulated capitalism and real democracy emerge. Increasing wealth accumulation for the exclusive benefit of a privileged minority and democracy cannot coexist, no matter what reassuring political slogan or concept is invented and deployed to conceal the truth. Unfortunately our political leaders have yet to grasp the new reality and social chaos will prevail.
  • DorothyErskine67
    Even if the politicians are sincere, they must see that people cannot find jobs if they are not there to be found. The middle of a recession, with a depression looking more likely every time I open a newspaper, is not the time for these drastic changes. A further hazard is that with more applicants than they can employ, employers are going to choose applicants who are going to be most cost effective: i.e. working hardest for the least money and making the fewest waves. You might lose out against someone less qualified but bland and acceptable for reasons never actually described to you (or to the jobcentre rep who might follow up your application) if you have any kind of disability or long term illness (no matter how minor) or you might get pregnant; or you can't put your family on hold at short notice to work overtime; or you might leave because you find a better job; or you belong to a minority group and might complain about being bullied; you arrive at the job interview under (doesn't show respect) or over-dressed (s/he doesn't look like someone who is prepared to get their hands dirty) ....
  • MissKubelik
    You're not wrong. When are we going to stop attacking the legitimate majority (of those on the sick) to deal with a problem that has relevance for a minute sub-section? Lets beat everyone with the same stick whether they are guilty or not. Mindless and vindictive.
  • Capitalism depends upon a fluctuating reserve of unemployed workers to bolster and absorb the boom/bust cycles that are built into the system. Bust cycles, however normal and to be expected, are significant in that they threaten even the top of the capital "food chain" with its own lack of balanced distribution of goods, services and resources. They are a constant visceral reminder of the lack of long-term sustainability of the whole structure. The bust cycles certainly have the power to destroy livelihoods and income stability of people on every level of the built-in, essential, hierarchy of a strictly capital-based system of investment/return/earnings/resource allocation, though the losses are necessarily much more heavily proportioned in the lower levels where the income earners/contributors are employed primarily as ballast and shock absorbers to sustain the uninterrupted movement of resources to the top levels of the structure, which might best be envisioned as a pyramid. Those at the top of this resource allocation pyramid are ?position-gifted? through inheritance (though there are much-touted exceptions) and no real work of their own as a result of the pyramid structure being necessarily designed against large-scale movement up the pyramid due to demands of keeping the broad base of the pyramid strong with resources thinly and evenly distributed enough to uphold the unequal "weight" of the necessary resource gluttony at the top. Due to greater access to power and the ability to frame the way this capitalist pyramid structure is talked about throughout the structure (another one of the top's advantages in acquired resources), it becomes necessary to frame the losses sustained by the absorber/ballast class in terms of what that class must give up or contribute to maintain the structure they way it is with as few losses being experienced by those at the top as possible. Through this control of how the structure is talked about and framed, and how this is manipulated to maintain the structure?s status quo, the ?bust? is promoted as the ever-larger shock-absorber class?s fault and subsequently it also becomes its duty to buoy up the unequal distribution of resources, the movement of resources up the pyramid by giving up ever more of its resource access. So, while the resources move up the pyramid, the number of levels of people required to participate as ballast/shock absorber class moves up from the base of the pyramid as well. Or more and higher levels drop down into ballast class while more resources move up. The movement of resources must always, to sustain the structure?s ?circulation? and balance in this way, move primarily from bottom to top. This eventually results, if there are no restrictions instituted to prevent it from happening, in a top-heavy structure that is unable to support its own weight. It will eventually topple or cave in on itself. Images of the collapsing towers on 9/11 come to mind, except the collapse is from inborn weakness of visioning and engineering, not a threat from outside? although that might also be a natural, expected way the cracks in the structure show themselves, from a contingent of the ballast class in response against being expected to support, inexorably, those at the top against their own self-interest. Regardless of how it happens, the collapse will come due to the finite nature of available resources, including the people needed to occupy the shock absorber/ballast class.
  • Rideintothesun
    Come on Mary, do you really think that the Tories need any encouragement to hammer the poor, dispossessed and marginalised? Still less do they need another hack to act as their cheerleader.
  • MissKubelik
    Why stop there. Why don't we indenture the unemployed into slavery then we won't have to worry about re-training or JSA. We can get them to do all the unpleasant jobs forever and we'll never have to concern ourselves with concepts like collective social responsibility or perpetuating cultural poverty again. Fascist!
  • MissKubelik
    I have yet to be convinced that the so-called sick-note culture exists. My understanding is that the number of people unemployed for five years or more has reduced by ten-fold since 1997. But cutting the statistics this way or that isn't the point. The fact is, that kicking people very rarely benefits them and many of those we intend to 'incentivise' will turn to acquisitive crime- disappearing into a nether world populated by an underclass of petty criminals. Eventually costing more. Cost cutting isn't the answer and shouldn't be the imperative. What the longterm unemployed require is help. Substantive retraining to provided decently paid opportunities targeted at the current job market. As for the Bill's consequences on the mentally ill and disabled; What sort of people attack those least able to defend themselves?
  • barabu
    What tosh! We will take this kind of piffle seriously when you come up with such a detailed plan for how to punish those who can defend themselves, like the bankers who take the risks and for whom we pay the costs, Ms Dejevsky. Why is the welfare state a problem? When did it ever almost destroy our economy? Your 'analysis' is like these stupid jokes people tell about disabled people. Pick on those who are taking us hostage and stop being a shill (likely unkowingly) to big banks and rich guys who are screwing the system. While you are pontificating about the few quid poor people get so they don't die, the real theives are laughing all the way to the bank, and they can rely on people like you to divert attention from the real issue. Who thinks we should be like America, anyway? This is silly beyond discription.
  • capricorn5
    I agree with bogwart,the reason why east europeans come here to do work is because they think they have struck gold in comparison to their own wages,if the chinese were allowed to come across to Poland to work in any great number they would think the same,everything is relative,When the world economy reaches parity we will all be in the same boat.Now one of the reasons we are in such as mess is because of the greedy bankers,who seems to be going after them,indeed i believe that many of them should be jailed for corporate negligence,and if they want to call our bluff about leaving the country then if they hadnt been in this country in the first place then we perhaps wouldnt be in the pickle that were are in.About the jobs market,i watched Heseltine on Question time last night and he didnt know where to look when someone mentioned that the Tories systematically dismantled our manufacturing base in the 80s
  • simondelancey
    The Eastern Europeans - at least some of them - are working for derisory sums, e.g. less than �3 per hour.
  • lordsandiwch
    It's necessary to have a time limit on benefits like in the US. After two years you should loose all help. there are jobs, it's just that people can't be bothered to do them. Otherwise how can you explain the millions that have come from Eastern Europe and overseas to do jobs? How can they find jobs but the rest can't? If the can move thousands of miles, then people here should move to where the jobs are if necessary. As the world becomes more competitive wages will keep on going down for low, unskilled pay. Get skilled, and if not, work for a living, nobody owes you anything. Don't have children if you can't afford them.
  • nanook_northpole
    Don't think national wealth comes into it but I've little doubt the policy makers looked very carefully at the Aust./ Can. welfare systems. Australian federal conservative govt. spent 12 years fine tuning the benefits system. The unemployment payment is barely enough & there's plenty of stick to encourage job-seeking.
  • lordsandiwch
    It's impossible to have everybody being an engineer. Indeed, Labour tried increasing the number of people going to university, and most of them went to study degrees that have little use in the high tech economy. The truth is that our lives will be worse than our parents because of global competition and the emergence of the developing world. Welfare will have to be abandoned sooner or later as the number of claimants increase exponentially.
  • tiddles
    Lets be honest ,many Brits are lazy ,and the ruling classes pay out benefits to keep the poor quiet and obese . At least the money swirls round the economy ,which is what governments love . Spend ! Spend ! Spend!
  • oscarweird
    OK, Mary, take the silver spoon out of your face, quit your job and take your middle class a*se to a real city and try to live off benefits. THEN come back and see if you can still whine like some thirties deb about the 'skendel of the dool'.
  • nonsheep
    Well said, could'nt agree more. Maybe if they tryed putting the pathetic wages up, iinstead of benefits down, it might help. As for �25 per week extra, do'nt make me laugh, that would not even cover the extra petrol cost getting there.
  • VaughanTobyWilde
    The DWP have conspired with the right wing press to misrepresent statistics regarding IB/ESA. ie, they've told lies. Sad to say, this vilification of the sick and disabled started on Labour's watch.
  • Oldgittom
    Ms Dejevsky, you remind me of a US conservative I heard recently. He was bemoaning the lack of gumption in today's unemployed. Their admirable forebears of the hungry thirties would "Shovel farm manure for a few cents". Poor, ignorant idiot. He had no idea farmers use mechanized loading shovels for mucking out these days. As with you; just substitute the middleclass dinner table for the redneck's cracker barrel. Heads up, please. We've had 200 years of science & technology, much of it devoted to eradicating human donkey power. Ergo, there are no jobs. What we must do is take some of the gazillions from your nice banking chums, & give it out as a living wage for all. Having single mothers & kids dossing in cars (US fashion) is unacceptable. I'm sure even you would agree. OGT
  • HJ777
    It would be more accurate to say that SOME benefit levels are amongst the lowest in Europe. For example, JSA, for those that have made their contributions, is extraordinarily low, to the point where many don't bother to claim. Other benefits can be rather generous, e.g. housing benefits. So the benefits system acts as a strong incentive to work for some and a strong disincentive to work for others.
  • fivedegreesnorth
    The question should be 'why has the UK become a low wage, low skill society', or perhaps more accurately, why has a low wage, low skill sector been allowed to persist. To my mind the welfare versus incentives debate is a distraction from the real issue: which is how the developed world responds to the rapid industrialisation of the developing world. Technology and globalisation have been hard on the unskilled. There is no incentive for anyone to get a job which pays less than welfare. And there is no justification for businesses acquiring labour at less than its true cost - which is what a living wage represents. The only viable path out of the impasse is for the 'developed' world is to continue developing through innovation and up-skilling. Our problem is we don't have the politics to do this. The lesson for the political right is that the market isn't going to drive economic development on its own, it requires government initiative, particularly to fund the up-skilling and to regulate the minimum wage. And the lesson for the political left is that simply ameliorating the condition of the unskilled is going to get harder and harder. As the world economy develops, being low skilled low waged will be less and less a viable option.
  • saintlaw
    Why are most of the Indy's pundits so awful? With her melted doll's head and opinions to match Mary has to be the worst - and that's taking in to account Christina, Philip, Julie, Dominic, Howard and of course the other Mary - stiff competition! Come on it's a recession - perfect excuse for some redundancies! Who knows, you might even be able to then hire someone with a bit of intelligence, wit and moral acumen .
  • LawThink
    Lawrence Mead's views on the matter are extremely questionable from an ethical and moral point of view and I am glad that the UK has not followed his lead. http://www.lawthink.co.uk
  • nakedtalker
    Journalistically thinking, this is a bad piece of writing. It's a full on gobbledegook manuscript, rather than easy to digest newsy/commentary article on welfare reforms. What are you saying, darling ?! It's stuck in my craw. It didn't flow down like honey.
  • nanook_northpole
    " There seems no appetite for giving Jobcentres, or anyone else, an additional role as enforcers. Why not? " I recall an ITV sitcom comedy from ~1965 called ' The Worker ' - a man has 980 jobs in 20 years. Says a lot about the prevailing culture that thought this was funny.
  • DorothyErskine67
    Instead of comparing the UK with the US a country with which we have little in common - size, population, history, political system, you name it - why not use comparisons with a European country, or Canada, or Australia. It wouldn't be because some of those countries are doing better than us, would it?

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