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ᏣᎳᎩ / Cherokee

Moderators: księżycowy, Nero

Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno / Wolf Wears Shoes

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-19, 18:44

EDIT: changed unotla/ᎤᏃᏝ -> dunotla/ᏚᏃᏝ

See: ᎤᏃᏝ <-> ᏚᏃᏝ / Unotla vs Dunotla

After additional adjustments.

I can't use 'da-' for motion, not covered in grammar taught so far. I gotta stay in my box, else my students get lost very quickly.

After a quick look in Durbin's, I realized "yells" doesn't have an "it", so I figure you can yell saying something, but you can't yell something. I have tried rewording it to eliminate need for grammar not taught so far. Don't know if it is right or wrong until you all look at it though. ;)

Which do you think would be better story form btw? I am thinking that the second form may sound better.
SV wrote:Rabbit says,
jisdu adiha
ᏥᏍᏚ ᎠᏗᎭ

VS wrote:Says rabbit,
Adiha jisdu,
ᎠᏗᎭ ᏥᏍᏚ,



Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:1. Wolf Wears Shoes.
(a) Waya dulasutla. ᏩᏯ ᏚᎳᏑᏝ.

2. Rabbit and squirrel are sitting near a river speaking.
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno nav uweyv?i Dunotla aniwoniha.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ ᎤᏃᏝ ᎠᏂᏬᏂᎭᏃ.


Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:3. Rabbit and squirrel see beaver.
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno doya anigotiha.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᏙᏯ ᎠᏂᎪᏘᎭ.

4. Beaver goes up to rabbit and squirrel yelling, saying, "Look!
Look!"
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno didla dega doya, gehluhvsga, adiha, “Ni!
Ni!”
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᏗᏜ ᏕᎦ ᏙᏯ, ᎨᏡᎲᏍᎦ, ᎠᏗᎭ, “Ꮒ! Ꮒ!”


Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:5. Rabbit says, "What's up beaver?"
(a) Jisdu adiha, “Gado usdi doya?”
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᎦᏙ ᎤᏍᏗ ᏙᏯ?”

6. Beaver says, "There is something new by the river!"
(a) Doya adiha, “Gohusdi adagei nav uweyv?i”
(b) ᏙᏯ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᎪᎱᏍᏗ ᎠᏓᎨᎢ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ”


Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:7. Beaver says, "Go and see it!"
(a) Doya adiha, “Sdena ale sdigowata!”
(b) ᏙᏯ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᏍᏕᎾ ᎠᎴ ᎢᎪᏩᏔ!”

8. Rabbit, squirrel, and beaver go down to the river.
(a) Jisdu, saloli, doya-hno uweyv?i anega.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ, ᏌᎶᎵ, ᏙᏯᏃ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ ᎠᏁᎦ.


Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:9. Wolf sees rabbit, squirrel, and beaver and says to them, "Hey!
What's going on?"
(a) Waya jisdu, saloli, doya-hno dagotiha, adiha, “Ni! Gado
usdi?”
(b) ᏩᏯ ᏥᏍᏚ, ᏌᎶᎵ, ᏙᏯᏃ ᏓᎪᏘᎭ, ᎠᏗᎭ, “Ꮒ! ᎦᏙ ᎤᏍᏗ?”

10. Rabbit says, "Beaver says something new is by the river!"
(a) Jisdu adiha, “Doya adiha gohusdi adagei nav uweyv?i!”
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᏙᏯ ᎠᏗᎭ ᎪᎱᏍᏗ ᎠᏓᎨᎢ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ!”

Last edited by ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-10-29, 4:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-19, 18:49

Mol_Bolom wrote:Trying to break down the story that you have...

See the thread, re- Cherokee.


Other thread? (looking...)
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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-19, 19:20

I am thinking that the following would be a good guideline to follow for when to use ale vs -hno in the lesson material.

Cherokee Lessons wrote:You will find that some speakers prefer “-hno” over “ale”, some use them about equally, and some who prefer “ale” over “-hno”. While your Cherokee to English response exercises will contain a mixture between the two, your English to Cherokee response exercises will be expecting you to use the -hno form with one exception. If the sentence would end in '-hno', you should 'ale' instead for the response portion of the exercise.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby Mol_Bolom on 2010-06-19, 19:36

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:Other thread? (looking...)


Haven't created it yet. Was about to, but want to reword it. It'll be here...
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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno / Wolf Wears Shoes

Postby Mol_Bolom on 2010-06-19, 20:18

SV wrote:Rabbit says,
jisdu adiha
ᏥᏍᏚ ᎠᏗᎭ

VS wrote:Says rabbit,
Adiha jisdu,
ᎠᏗᎭ ᏥᏍᏚ,


Remember there are several ways to say something like this.

The rabbit says, "###"
"###", tsisdu adia.
"###", adia tsisdu.
"###", adia tsisdu gesvi. (gesvi "is" with a falling pitch on ge, was with a high pitch on sv).
adia tsisdu, "###".
tsisdu adia, "###".
Basically, "Let the story guide you". If you feel that it should be one way for one sentence, but another way in another sentence, then do it.

The rabbit told him, "No!".
"Vtla!", agosele tsisdu.
or
"Vtla!", agoselv tsisdu gesei.

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:1. Wolf Wears Shoes.
(a) Waya dulasutla. ᏩᏯ ᏚᎳᏑᏝ.

2. Rabbit and squirrel are sitting near a river speaking.
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno nav uweyv?i unotla aniwoniha.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ ᏚᏃᏝ ᎠᏂᏬᏂᎭᏃ.


Close, just leave off the Ꮓ in the Cherokee, ;)


Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:4. Beaver goes up to rabbit and squirrel yelling, saying, "Look!
Look!"
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno didla dega doya, gehluhvsga, adiha, “Ni!
Ni!”
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᏗᏜ ᏕᎦ ᏙᏯ, ᎨᏡᎲᏍᎦ, ᎠᏗᎭ, “Ꮒ! Ꮒ!”


dega makes no sense. With using didla, all you need is ega = He is coming. Without didla then dayega would be the correct form. Unless this is an oddity of the dialect your learning, then I can't tell you because it is meaningless to me.

I can't use 'da-' for motion, not covered in grammar taught so far. I gotta stay in my box, else my students get lost very quickly.


Ok, don't bother with it then at the moment. didla makes enough sense.

After a quick look in Durbin's, I realized "yells" doesn't have an "it", so I figure you can yell saying something, but you can't yell something. I have tried rewording it to eliminate need for grammar not taught so far. Don't know if it is right or wrong until you all look at it though. ;)


Ok, there are two kinds of objects in any transitive pronoun prefix. Lets look at something simple using getluhvsga.

degetluhvsga. He is yelling at them, or He is yelling (plural acts of yelling).
degetluhnea. He is yelling at them for him, He is yelling at him for them, He is yelling at them for them.

Now, if (and I mean if), getluhvsga did have an it, then the last word could, also, be...
degetluhnea. He is yelling it at them for him, He is yelling them at him for him, He is yelling it at him for them, He is yelling them at them for him, He is yelling it at them for them, He is yelling them at them for them.

Hmm...I've tried to find a way to word what I'm about to say for some time, but could never think of anything good enough. So sorry if this comes out badly, I'm just going to say it.

Don't be too worried about being perfect, at first. As time goes on, you will get better and better. In the beginning I used words without any prefixes what so ever, so something like I am tired would have looked like "ayv daniyawega gvhdi usv" (I they are tired Using night). I still have in a book where I used the name Will for the future tense, :shock: .

Basically, just work on remembering words. Once you know more words, then you will be able to read what is written, and then you will be able to see the patterns, and learn much faster and better/

Yeesh, like I said, I could never think of a better way to word it. Haven't been able to think clearly well the past several years, and seems to be getting worse. (Starting to shake. It's around these times when my brain really starts slowing down. So I'll leave it at that. Again, sorry if anything was worded badly).
Last edited by Mol_Bolom on 2010-10-29, 2:27, edited 1 time in total.
us: Native
Western chr: Ꮟ ᎦᏕᏠᏆᎠ: Still learning
Tzotzil Maya: jk'an jbat ta jteklum, pero ch'abal li jtak'ine.
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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno / Wolf Wears Shoes

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-19, 20:42

Mol_Bolom wrote:
SV wrote:Rabbit says,
jisdu adiha
ᏥᏍᏚ ᎠᏗᎭ

VS wrote:Says rabbit,
Adiha jisdu,
ᎠᏗᎭ ᏥᏍᏚ,


Remember there are several ways to say something like this.

The rabbit says, "###"
"###", tsisdu adia.
"###", adia tsisdu.
"###", adia tsisdu gesvi. (gesvi "is" with a falling pitch on ge, was with a high pitch on sv).
adia tsisdu, "###".
tsisdu adia, "###".
Basically, "Let the story guide you". If you feel that it should be one way for one sentence, but another way in another sentence, then do it.

The rabbit told him, "No!".
"Vtla!", agosele tsisdu.
or
"Vtla!", agoselv tsisdu gesei.

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:1. Wolf Wears Shoes.
(a) Waya dulasutla. ᏩᏯ ᏚᎳᏑᏝ.

2. Rabbit and squirrel are sitting near a river speaking.
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno nav uweyv?i dunotla aniwoniha.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ ᎤᏃᏝ ᎠᏂᏬᏂᎭᏃ.


Close, just leave off the Ꮓ in the Cherokee, ;)

Bleck, a typo. ;)
Mol_Bolom wrote:

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:4. Beaver goes up to rabbit and squirrel yelling, saying, "Look!
Look!"
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno didla dega doya, gehluhvsga, adiha, “Ni!
Ni!”
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᏗᏜ ᏕᎦ ᏙᏯ, ᎨᏡᎲᏍᎦ, ᎠᏗᎭ, “Ꮒ! Ꮒ!”


dega makes no sense. With using didla, all you need is ega = He is coming. Without didla then dayega would be the correct form. Unless this is an oddity of the dialect your learning, then I can't tell you because it is meaningless to me.

Bleck, that is most definitely another typo.
Mol_Bolom wrote:
I can't use 'da-' for motion, not covered in grammar taught so far. I gotta stay in my box, else my students get lost very quickly.


Ok, don't bother with it then at the moment. didla makes enough sense.

After a quick look in Durbin's, I realized "yells" doesn't have an "it", so I figure you can yell saying something, but you can't yell something. I have tried rewording it to eliminate need for grammar not taught so far. Don't know if it is right or wrong until you all look at it though. ;)


Ok, there are two kinds of objects in any transitive pronoun prefix. Lets look at something simple using getluhvsga.

degetluhvsga. He is yelling at them, or He is yelling (plural acts of yelling).
degetluhnea. He is yelling at them for him, He is yelling at him for them, He is yelling at them for them.

Now, if (and I mean if), getluhvsga did have an it, then the last word could, also, be...
degetluhnea. He is yelling it at them for him, He is yelling them at him for him, He is yelling it at him for them, He is yelling them at them for him, He is yelling it at them for them, He is yelling them at them for them.

Hmm...I've tried to find a way to word what I'm about to say for some time, but could never think of anything good enough. So sorry if this comes out badly, I'm just going to say it.

Don't be too worried about being perfect, at first. As time goes on, you will get better and better. In the beginning I used words without any prefixes what so ever, so something like I am tired would have looked like "ayv daniyawega gvhdi usv" (I they are tired Using night). I still have in a book where I used the name Will for the future tense, :shock: .



My only concern for correctness at this point, is being sure not to teach something incorrectly...
I need to try and keep the instructions and examples correct, within the limitations of the material being taught so far. My general Cherokee I am not expecting perfection from. :D , Nor am I expecting such from the students.

Mol_Bolom wrote:
Basically, just work on remembering words. Once you know more words, then you will be able to read what is written, and then you will be able to see the patterns, and learn much faster and better/

Yeesh, like I said, I could never think of a better way to word it. Haven't been able to think clearly well the past several years, and seems to be getting worse. (Starting to shake. It's around these times when my brain really starts slowing down. So I'll leave it at that. Again, sorry if anything was worded badly).
Last edited by ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-10-29, 4:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby Formiko on 2010-06-20, 5:25

I would definitely say
jisdu adiha
because there is no object in the normal sense. The phrase that rabbit is saying is not considered the object.
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Re: Cherokee Lessons / Revision 2.10 / Released as a torrent

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-20, 12:02

I have released the first 5 chapters and associated audio as revision 2.10. Hopefully I can incorporate newer audio and fixes soon.

If you would like to volunteer audio, and don't mind your voice being diced, sliced, and refactoring... please read through the rest of these messages and then reply. Thanks.

If you find an error that needs fixing, please reply here on this message board. ᏩᏙ!

LINK: Cherokee Language Lessons - Revision 2.10

~510 Megs as PDF and MP3.

Cherokee Lessons wrote:Copyright 2010 - All Rights Reserved.

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, 171 Second Street, Suite 300, San Francisco, California, 94105, USA.

Here is a summary of the license.

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• to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work.
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Under the following conditions:
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With the understanding that:
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– Your fair dealing or fair use rights;
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Last edited by ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-07-06, 0:22, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-20, 16:44

Do the following exercises appear correct?

Cherokee Lessons wrote:Translate the following Cherokee sentences into English.

1. Gugu doya-hno dagotiha etli. [A mink sees a bottle and a beaver.] ᎫᎫ ᏙᏯᏃ ᏓᎪᏘᎭ ᎡᏟ
2. Nvya sadvdi-hno dagotiha etli. [A mink sees a rock and a trap.] ᏅᏯ ᏌᏛᏗᏃ ᏓᎪᏘᎭ ᎡᏟ
3. Awi gugu-hno duduliha etli. [A mink wants a deer and a bottle.] ᎠᏫ ᎫᎫᏃ ᏚᏚᎵᎭ ᎡᏟ
4. Nvya doya-hno dagotiha etli. [A mink sees a rock and a beaver.] ᏅᏯ ᏙᏯᏃ ᏓᎪᏘᎭ ᎡᏟ
5. Awi nvya-hno duduliha ogana. [A groundhog wants a deer and rock.] ᎠᏫ ᏅᏯᏃ ᏚᏚᎵᎭ ᎣᎦᎾ
6. Anigotiha ogana ale dili. [A groundhog and a skunk see it.] ᎠᏂᎪᏘᎭ ᎣᎦᎾ ᎠᎴ ᏗᎵ
7. Sadvdi anigotiha doya ale dili. [A beaver and a skunk see a trap.] ᏌᏛᏗ ᎠᏂᎪᏘᎭ ᏙᏯ ᎠᎴ ᏗᎵ
8. Nvya doya-hno dunaduliha awi ale dili. [A deer and a skunk want a rock and a beaver.] ᏅᏯ ᏙᏯᏃ ᏚᏂᏚᎵᎭ ᎠᏫ ᎠᎴ ᏗᎵ


ᎠᎴ

Cherokee Lessons wrote:Translate the following into Cherokee.

1. A deer sees a rock and a beaver. [Nvya doya-hno dagotiha awi.] ᏅᏯ ᏙᏯᏃ ᏓᎪᏘᎭ ᎠᏫ
2. A groundhog wants a bottle and a trap. [Gugu sadvdi-hno duduliha ogana.] ᎫᎫ ᏌᏛᏗᏃ ᏚᏚᎵᎭ ᎣᎦᎾ
3. A deer wants a bottle and a beaver. [Gugu doya-hno duduliha awi.] ᎫᎫ ᏙᏯᏃ ᏚᏚᎵᎭ ᎠᏫ
4. A groundhog sees a bottle and a skunk. [Gugu dili-hno dagotiha ogana.] ᏚᏚ ᏗᎵᏃ ᏓᎪᏘᎭ ᎣᎦᎾ
5. A deer wants a beaver and a rock. [Doya nvya-hno duduliha awi.] ᏙᏯ ᏅᏯᏃ ᏚᏚᎵᎭ ᎠᏫ
6. A beaver and a mink want it. [Uniduliha doya ale etli.] ᎤᏂᏚᎵᎭ ᏙᏯ ᎠᎴ ᎡᏟ
7. A beaver and a mink see a skunk. [Dili anigotiha doya ale etli.] ᏗᎵ ᎠᏂᎪᏘᎭ ᏙᏯ ᎡᏟ
8. A beaver and a mink want a trap and a bottle. [Sadvdi gugu-hno dunaduliha doya ale etli.] ᏌᏛᏗ ᎫᎫᏃ ᏚᏂᏚᎵᎭ ᎠᎴ ᎡᏟ
Last edited by ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-20, 19:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby Mol_Bolom on 2010-06-20, 18:09

I read over it and it all seems correct except for duniduliha. The verb root for "want" begins with 'a'. The vowel only changes with the prefix 'u', else the 'a' should always be there.

Therefore, duniduliha should be dunaduliha.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-20, 19:02

Mol_Bolom wrote:I read over it and it all seems correct except for duniduliha. The verb root for "want" begins with 'a'. The vowel only changes with the prefix 'u', else the 'a' should always be there.

Therefore, duniduliha should be dunaduliha.


Fixed, two places.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-20, 19:05

Mol_Bolom wrote:I read over it and it all seems correct except for duniduliha. The verb root for "want" begins with 'a'. The vowel only changes with the prefix 'u', else the 'a' should always be there.

Therefore, duniduliha should be dunaduliha.


:(

Chapter 5 is full of duniduliha instead of dunaduliha.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-20, 20:15

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:
Mol_Bolom wrote:I read over it and it all seems correct except for duniduliha. The verb root for "want" begins with 'a'. The vowel only changes with the prefix 'u', else the 'a' should always be there.

Therefore, duniduliha should be dunaduliha.


:(

Chapter 5 is full of duniduliha instead of dunaduliha.


I think I fixed them all in Chapter 5 text *and* audio.
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ᏩᏯᏩᏯ
 
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Re: Cherokee / Chapter 5 changes.

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-20, 21:48

Ok, fixed all the -aduli- errors I think.

I went ahead and converted the final two exercises to OVS, ran the rebuild audio script and practiced with the audio from:

Disk-05/tracks.3/03-014-*

and was able to complete 90%+ correctly for Cherokee to English translation, before, when using the SOV structure for the last two exercises, as soon as the longer subjects combined with longer objects came up, I couldn't keep track of the subject by the time the object was finished and hear the verb. :ohwell:

After the discussion with you two about the SOV vs OVS, and noticing that OVS seems to be more common that SOV, I figured I'd try OVS. I think OVS would probably be prevalent for longer sentences. :), and SOV for really short ones.

Thoughts?
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Re: Cherokee / Phrase Requests / AUDIO

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-06-20, 22:46

ᎣᏏᏲ!

To all those lurkers and everyone else out there.

We need audio for the following phrases to use in the lesson material. The more voices we have the better the students (and the teachers who are also students) become at hearing the language.

Remember that these are nonsense sentences whose function is to teach core grammar, not intelligent thought. ;)

This is a Creative Commons project, please do not submit someone else's work!

Slightly under amplified.
44.1KHZ, VBR MP3 or OGG preferred. (Look for AUDACITY.)
Separate audio files per phrase if possible.
Please speak with care and be un-hurried in what you are saying.

ᏩᏙ!

6.2 ale/-hno

Yonega ale jalagi dejiwoniha.

Igada ogana danigotiha doya ale awi.

Awi nvya agotiha ale igada gugu dagotiha.

Awi nvya agotiha ale doya dili uduliha.

Yonega jalagino dejiwoniha.

Igada ogana danigotiha doya awi etlino.

Awi nvya agotiha igada gugu dudulihano.

Awi nvya agotiha doyano dili uduliha.

Awi nvya agotiha dilino uduliha doya.

===========

1. Gugu doya-hno dagotiha etli. A mink sees a bottle and a beaver.

2. Nvya sadvdi-hno dagotiha etli. A mink sees a rock and a trap.

3. Awi gugu-hno duduliha etli. A mink wants a deer and a bottle.

4. Nvya doya-hno dagotiha etli. A mink sees a rock and a beaver.

5. Awi nvya-hno duduliha ogana. A groundhog wants a deer and rock.

6. Anigotiha ogana ale dili. A groundhog and a skunk see it.

7. Sadvdi anigotiha doya ale dili. A beaver and a skunk see a trap.

8. Nvya doya-hno dunaduliha awi ale dili. A deer and a skunk want a rock and a beaver.

==============================================

1. A deer sees a rock and a beaver. Nvya doya-hno dagotiha awi.

2. A groundhog wants a bottle and a trap. Gugu sadvdi-hno duduliha ogana.

3. A deer wants a bottle and a beaver. Gugu doya-hno duduliha awi.

4. A groundhog sees a bottle and a skunk. Gugu dili-hno dagotiha ogana.

5. A deer wants a beaver and a rock. Doya nvya-hno duduliha awi.

6. A beaver and a mink want it. Unaduliha doya ale etli.

7. A beaver and a mink see a skunk. Dili anigotiha doya ale etli.

8. A beaver and a mink want a trap and a bottle. Sadvdi gugu-hno dunaduliha doya ale etli.
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