China’s Military Threatens America: ‘We Will Hurt You’
“Every nation has a right to defend itself and to spend as it sees fit for that purpose, but a gap as wide as what seems to be forming between China’s stated intent and its military programs leaves me more than curious about the end result,” said Admiral Mike Mullen this Wednesday. “Indeed, I have moved from being curious to being genuinely concerned.”
It’s about time the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in public, expressed disquiet about the Chinese military buildup. For decades, American flag officers, many of them from the Navy, have remained optimistic about America’s military relations with China. And after every Chinese hostile act — even those constituting direct attacks on the United States, such as the March 2009 attempt to interfere with the Impeccable in the South China Sea — American admirals have either remained silent or said they were “perplexed” or “befuddled” by Beijing’s intentions.
Why the befuddlement? The assumption in Washington has been that America was so powerful that we could integrate hardline Chinese leaders into a liberal international system they had no hand in creating. To this end, successive administrations sought, among other things, to foster ties between the American and Chinese militaries.
The Pentagon, therefore, pushed for port calls, reciprocal visits of officers, a hot line, and an incidents-at-sea agreement, with varying degrees of success. Admiral Timothy Keating even went so far as to offer to help China build aircraft carriers.
Keating’s offer, made in May 2007 when he was commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, may have been extended with the knowledge the Chinese would reject it, but the apparent generosity was nonetheless in keeping with the general approach of the Navy during the Bush administration, an approach that President Obama has also adopted. So if there is any significance to Mullen’s recent comment, it is that the American military, at the highest levels, is beginning to voice in open forums its doubts about Beijing’s ultimate intentions. At this point, however, the expressions of “genuine concern” remain muted.
Senior Chinese officers, on the other hand, have no trouble telling us how they really feel.
In February, Colonel Meng Xianging promised a “hand-to-hand fight with the U.S.” sometime within the next 10 years “when we’re strong enough.” “We must make them hurt,” said Major-General Yang Yi this year, referring to the United States.
And last month, at the Strategic and Economic Dialogue in Beijing, a Chinese flag officer launched a three-minute rant that stunned the 65 or so American officials in the audience. Everything that is right with U.S. relations with China is due to China, said Rear Admiral Guan Youfei. Everything that is wrong is Washington’s fault. According to Guan, the United States sees China as an enemy.
A senior American official traveling on Secretary of State Clinton’s plane back to the United States said the admiral’s comments were “out of step” with the views of China’s civilian leaders. U.S. officials at the time also predicted that Beijing would soon welcome Robert Gates on his long-planned trip to China.
They were wrong. On June 3 the Chinese foreign ministry announced that the Defense secretary was in fact not welcome. Gates, who also thought he would travel to Beijing this month, said the turndown was just the military’s fault. “Nearly all of the aspects of the relationship between the United States and China are moving forward in a positive direction, with the sole exception of the military-to-military relationship,” he said on his way to Singapore. “The PLA is significantly less interested in developing this relationship than the political leadership of the country.”
Is that true? “Admiral Guan was representing what all of us think about the United States in our hearts,” a senior Chinese official told the Washington Post. “It may not have been politically correct, but it wasn’t an accident.” Chinese flag officers do not launch into polemical speeches at tightly scripted events, such as the once-a-year Strategic and Economic Dialogue, and it was reckless for American officials to assume, despite everything, that Admiral Guan was speaking only for himself.
Gates perhaps knows better now. After having his visit rejected at the last moment, he had to endure a series of hostile comments from Chinese flag officers at a security conference in Singapore at the beginning of this month. And that is just more evidence our officials and diplomats, even after more than three decades of close relations with their counterparts in Beijing, still do not understand China.
That, of course, is another “genuine concern.” So what, exactly, is the consequence of our miscomprehending the Chinese, refusing to hear what they openly say? It’s worse than the rejection of official visits to Beijing by overly eager Defense secretaries. Listen to former State Department analyst Robert Sutter: “China is the only large power in the world preparing to shoot Americans.”
The rest of this website eviscerates President Obama foreign policy and the damage it has done to relationships, so why is there any surprise when the chickens come home to roost?
How would USA react if Russian or Chinese Surveillance ships steamed into Norfolk, Or the Submarine bases in Hawaii and began surveillance ? Because that is what occurred in the south China seas by US ships. Deal with it. Hainan Island is a Major Chinese submarine Base, China was protecting its secrets just like any other world power.
President Obama Sold over 6 Billion in weaponry to Taiwan, People whine if China sells Iran any weaponry, so why can the USA sell to whomever it chooses? This is the result of inept foreign policy decisions.
The USA is flooding the world with Worthless US dollars, while spending wildly on worthless programs, these actions ripple out to the rest of the world, which is slowly cutting off ties to the USA. it will get worse.
Why should anyone be shocked to Chinese / Russian / Iranian / Fill in the bank / reactions? The reasons for discontent with President Obama fill the posts on this website, is it any surprise the Chinese are also unhappy ?
China does not won the South China Sea which is international water, Norfolk and the Hawaiian naval bases are harbors, in the eevent you did not know.
Taiwan has a rigth to protect itself as an independent nation from Chinese Communist aggression, and we have the right to hellp them. Unless China plans on war, what we sell to Taiwan is none of their concern.
I agree with Alex. What are we doing in Taiwan? Nothing but exasperating difficult relations with China. The question(s) one must ask on the Taiwan issue are: First, does Taiwan want to remain separate from China? (answer: A slim majority still do, but the political winds tend to change very fast on this topic in-country depending on who you ask) Second: The U.S. is entangled in a defensive alliance with Taiwan that is really nothing more than paper. Ask yourself if Taiwan was forcibly “taken back” by China would the U.S. do something? More importantly COULD IT??
China holds a majority of U.S. debt and is positioning itself in other areas to become a regional and global hegemon. They have one of the largest armies. They have the largest economic reserves (no debt, but cash $$). If you looked into their holdings, you would also notice that China has 97% of the earth’s rare metals that allow production of advanced technological gear for which there is no substitute. Would the U.S., who can’t even bring itself to win a war in either Iraq or Afghanistan, truly take on China? America wouldn’t & more importantly COULDN’T. Some global hegemon, huh?
Arbnmp,
The better question is as follows: Could China take over Taiwan in the first place?
1. An amphibious invasion against dug-in forces is about the most difficult military operation for the attacker there is.
2. During this invasion, the US Fifth Fleet will be sinking Chinese ships at will and in mass in the Formosa Straits.
I’m not saying that China requires nuclear strikes to successfully invade Taiwan. I suppose if they were willing to bleed rivers of blood they could do it…Lose three hundred to a thousand Red Armed Forces for every Taiwanese or US soldier, sailor, or marine lost.
Now that’s funny. Do you really think that China would lose 300 to our 1??? They have a million man army for one. Number two…they have all the same technology. Number three, they make 90% of our military components. Number four, they would have to even invade us. All they have to do is sell our stocks on the open market, and we’re done. We owe upwards to 4 trillion dollars to them, you might want to consider that. America is not the force that you think that it is. You’ve seen too many Viet Nam movies to understand how this game is REALLY played.
Correction, China recently sold a ton of their share of U.S. dept to Japan. Japan not China holds most of the U.S. dept.
I don’t think arbnmp has a good grasp of the facts here.
1. “The U.S. is entangled in a defensive alliance with Taiwan that is really nothing more than paper. Ask yourself if Taiwan was forcibly “taken back” by China would the U.S. do something? More importantly COULD IT??”
The question is not could the U.S. do something, but rather, could China do anything? China’s navy is not match even for the partial U.S. fleets in southeast Asia. Even with two wars on its plate, the U.S. military is more than a match for anything the PLA could throw at Taiwan.
2. “China holds a majority of U.S. debt and is positioning itself in other areas to become a regional and global hegemon. They have one of the largest armies. They have the largest economic reserves (no debt, but cash $$). If you looked into their holdings, you would also notice that China has 97% of the earth’s rare metals that allow production of advanced technological gear for which there is no substitute. Would the U.S., who can’t even bring itself to win a war in either Iraq or Afghanistan, truly take on China? America wouldn’t & more importantly COULDN’T. Some global hegemon, huh?”
China’s U.S. debt holdings being a sign of some sort of leverage is one of the great modern political myths. It’s not China that has the U.S. over a barrel, it’s the U.S. that has China over a barrel. What if the U.S. stopped consuming China’s exports? What is the U.S. Navy decided to stop making the world’s waterways safe for international commerce? China has grown its way into the 3rd largest economy largely on the back of American acquiesce and consumption.
The size of China’s manned military is not nearly as important as you make it, especially in an era when warfare is increasingly dominated by programs such as drone flights (which the PLA, of course, have not investment in at present). If numbers were power, North Korea, too, would be an undisputed military hegemon, but in fact, it would surely lose a war against even its less militaristic neighbor.
China’s rare earths metal market is another misleading statistic. The U.S., for example, has vast resources of rare earths that it simply has not decided to mine or stockpile at present; prior to China’s investment in rare earth mining, the U.S. was the world leader in rare earth production.
You accuse the U.S. of being a faux-hegemon for not being to “win” its wars in the Middle East, but the real faux-hegemon here is China. China couldn’t even wage war effectively across the Taiwan Strait, in its own backyard, much less halfway across the world as the Pentagon has done and continues to do. Its economy is one-dimensional and driven by exports, its demographic issues will cripple it severely in the coming years, and its posturing about Taiwan and “hurting” the far superior American forces are just that: sound and fury, signifying nothing, really.
Are you kidding me? Taiwan is a healthy DEMOCRATIC nation that China constantly threatens with takeover. I imagine that’s one of the reason the US sells weaponry to Taiwan. You see a moral equivalance with China’s selling weapons to terror spreading Iran? Please TRY to think things through before you post.
Of course Taiwan is a (besieged) democratic nation. So is Israel. Used to be a feature, now it’s a bug.
Liberal facists don’t see the difference between a Democratic country and a communist authoritarian regime. Just like our President, they are relatively the same…. unless you live there.
Once Taiwan is gone, the whole Asian is gone; just like in the very first stage of WWII, once Hitler got Poland, he had successfully shown all the European countries who was the boss there.
I know the subject is very serious but I still had to chuckle when you typo’d “fill in the bank”. That is probably the only thing that Government has been proficient at since ’08.
President Obama Sold over 6 Billion in weaponry to Taiwan, People whine if China sells Iran any weaponry, so why can the USA sell to whomever it chooses? This is the result of inept foreign policy decisions.
Uhh, the Chinese / Russians are brutal dictators who have murdered tens of millions??
While certainly not perfect, the US is really the only last / best hope for spreading freedom and protecting democracies (such as Taiwan, Israel, etc) left…life is usually full of bad choices / worse choices, not good and bad choices.
Alex,
Countries with blue water navies routinely engage in “Freedom of Navigation” exercises, which establish and maintain universal rights to travel in international waters/airspace unmolested, under the international community’s assertion that sea lanes are open for the innocent passage of all. Incidentally, it was a Freedom of Navigation exercise like this that was the focus of the conflict when Libya’s Khadafi claimed the entirety of the Gulf of Sidra with his “Line of Death”.
Russian, and former Soviet, ships have also performed their own freedom of navigation exercises by shadowing our warships while on manuevers, loitering around our sub bases with “research” vessels, and even monitoring our shuttle launches with “fishing trawlers” off our coast. And as long as they do not endanger the safety of Americans, nor cross into our internationally recognized sovereign territory, we “deal with it” as you indelicately put it.
What China has done is make an exclusive claim to certain international waters/air space in an attempt to deny that innocent passage for all. As a direct result, we had the April 2001 conflict regarding the Navy EP-3 where the Chinese PLA Air Force bumped our plane in international airspace. The recent shouldering of one of our research vessels by their ships is a continuation and extention of their exclusive claim to these waters.
The bottom line is that the US honors freedom of the seas. China has the same obligation, but will continue to try and bully their neighbors in their own national interests. China’s relatively new emphasis on development of a true blue water navy and power projection, combined with their strong tendency of diplomacy by intimidation is what troubles our (US) military leadership. I’m glad that my Navy and the JCS have finally started to voice this publically.
Excellent post.
Iran and Taiwan are equivalent? I find it hard to believe that Taiwan would attack anyone – Iran most definitely will attack Israel at it’s first opportunity.
“How would USA react if Russian or Chinese Surveillance ships steamed into Norfolk”
Why on earth would Russia or China have to send a ship to Norfolk this is a free nation. They can go to Google Earth, read our newspapers or for that matter catch a flight to Norfolk and drive around to where ever they want.
Unlike China we don’t restrict travel
China keeps devaluing her currency making it next to impossible for American manufacturers to compete. China has a horrible human rights and environmental history. China is a major player in espionage and copywrite piracy. If not for the U.S. China would be a part of Japan. China is no friend of anyone.
Oh puhleaze. Obama is bad enough, but the lovely “People’s Republic” is infinitely worse.
Again, they have to put up with our shadowing. Just as WE have to with them (never hear about their ships parking off of Manila doing the exact same thing, do you? How curious.).
And Taiwan wouldn’t NEED those weapons were it not for a long and well documented history of the People’s Republic committing aggression in violations of various agreements against the ROC islands there. And unlike Iran, the ROC hasn’t been financing terrorism or threatening to nuke its neighbors off the face of the map.
And US dollars WORTHLESS? Have you SEEN the exchange rates recently?
The only chickens coming home to roost are those of the PRC. At the time of its takeover, Mao openly declared his intention to dominate Asia and sent millions of soldiers and countless tons of military support to Communist aggression from Indochina to Korea. And to this day it still insists it owns the South China Sea and the Yellow Sea in spite of the delineated International agreements to that matter.
It is China, not the West, that is at fault for the dismal relations between the two.
I most humbly submit the following analysis:
The Red Chinese, like proper analyst, analyze others actions before figuring out policy. When the words do not match actions, then the lies are analyzed for clues on intent.
How could any analyst conclude that the USA is a reliable ally?
The USA turned on all its “friends” and builds “Islime” governments:
Iraq: Islime, Sharia, and a nice civil war!
Afghanistan: Sharia government under Karzai, followed by Sharia Taleban when we leave!
Bosnia and Herzegovina: where US policy of demanding Sharia governments is carefully camouflaged behind: Serbs, Bosnians, Kosovo blah blah
Iran: where US has made no effort at regime change since literally bringing the dictators, that parade as religious, to power in 1979.
Russia: US refuse to call Chechnya: Islime terrorist central.
Gaza/West Bank: where the USA demands a terrorist state, exactly like Iran/ Al Qaeda, be established.
So from a Chinese analyst perspective, with friends like the US, who needs enemies?
Of course I recognize that even PJRS lives in a world of “who said” and not who can think for themselves and analyzed the implications of the current market conditions: reality! Instead of “ If “Johnny” did not say it, I am not sure”?
And no, to date no one, except me, has figured out the story of the century in the gulf oil spill. If you stop reading and start analyzing the facts you have it should get real obvious real quick.
“…to date no one, except me, has figured out the story of the century in the gulf oil spill. If you stop reading and start analyzing the facts you have it should get real obvious real quick.”
Is this story of the century that China bombed the DWH? It wasn’t an accident, but an act of war?
Come on, tell us already… we’re dying here.
It would be an even less likely story if the Feds and BP
were not keeping such a tight monopoly on news&views out
of the area.
This is ridiculous.
1. The immediate cause of the explosion was almost certainly natural gas.
2. There are no chinese military operations in the Atlantic or Caribean. Yet.
I know that…I was being facetious.
1) The fire was certainly caused by natural gas;
What about the double-bump felt/heard _before_
the fire started ?
and I say again: Why is the area off limits to the public ?
2) You have intel so good you can prove a negative ?
“And no, to date no one, except me, has figured out the story of the century in the gulf oil spill. If you stop reading and start analyzing the facts you have it should get real obvious real quick.”
Say, how’s the bandwidth in Beijing?
So Duef you were there and watched it all go down. Even more so you understood every little nuance and were privy to all sensitive information. No getting your information from a second-hand source like the rest of us “uninformed” people, huh?
Duerf, please tell me the secret that “only you know” about the oil volcano in the Gulf of Mexico. Looks like a big mess to me, like a fart that lingers around you. Obama can’t fix it, and it keeps getting bigger. Whose idea was it, for the oil to be red? The Book of Revelation talks about a third of the sea turning to blood. Is this a Red Chinese joke? Tell me — did they put food coloring into the oil? It’s Obamo-trina, Government-by-morons coming home to roost. It’s going gushy-gushy-goo-goo-goo, and Obama is telling us he plans to ban faucets, instead of calling the plumber. I would be very surprized if he planned this thing: The man and his ideas are coming apart at the seams; neither can I see a Chinese hand in it: They can’t possibly do us more harm than we are already doing with our incompetence. Besides, if they did us in, who would pay them dividends on their bonds? They lent us a fortune of their hard-earned money. If anything, they would like to help keep us from going under; but we’re just intent on digging a deeper and deeper hole for ourselves. They’re like a bartender, trying to convince an alcoholic customer he’s had enough. But if you know otherwise, tell me… How did they cause the oil spill? And how did they manage to paint it red?
This is the China wrought by the hand of the east coast liberal elite. Chairman Mao was an alumnus of the Yale in China program, and the OSS overtly favored Mao over the Nationalists, to the detriment of the US (and which resulted at the end of the war in the OSS covering up the murder of USAF intelligence officer Captain John Birch by Mao and his officers).
You elites are blind to the fact that the Chinese do NOT regard you as their sponsors in their revolution, even though your banks did finance them, and they do not regard you as having favored them over the nationalists, which you clearly did until the details of Birch’s murder were made public on the US Senate floor.
The PRA accepts as doctrine that they will engage in global war against the US in the next 10-20 years, probably sooner. They are already preparing to shut down all of our information, power, and telecommunications networks by cyberattacks on the eve of their military plans to reclaim Taiwan. They will launch attacks on US bases in Japan, Korea, Guam, and Hawaii to prevent our regional forces from opposing them, and they will dump their US dollar reserves on global markets in order to destroy the value of the dollar, so that we are unable to purchase enough oil to fuel ships and airplanes to provide logistical support to Taiwan.
This is not paranoid imaginings, this is straight from the People’s Revolutionary Army’s playbook.
I’m afraid you are correct. The Chinese have been working quietly but steadily to disrupt our power grids and destroy our bank accounting system, too. Now add in the fact that we purchase so much from them and we don’t have the capacity to make the items we live on anymore — we really will be up the creek.
But of course, Obama and Frank and the other traitors are trying to reduce our military even further, relying on pie-in-the-sky systems. Do you think it’s any coincidence these are the guys who bankrupted us? Do you think it’s any coincidence that they bankrupted us to China?
The Chinese will continue to push our elected Coward-in-Chief and watch him back up, conjugate, surrender and apologize each time. The conflicts will become more frequent until the goal of invading Taiwan without opposition is achieved.
They have pretty much figured out that he will not be around any longer after 2012 so the pace of these incidents will accelerate.
They also know that he cannot do three things at a time….golf, Middle East and Far East. The Chinese will continue to promote the Iranian or at least block efforts to find any solutions for problems in that region.
There WILL be a confrontation between China and the United States, and it will come soon. If I were a betting man, I would say it will come over North Korea. North Korea will do something stupid (like sink a South Korean warship, which it already has done) and this will escalate into an open confrontation between North and South Korea. The United States will be dragged into the conflict (since we have troops stationed in South Korea) and China will then have to decide what to do. Will it support its communist ally, North Korea, or will it sell it out and let it twist in the wind? My money is that China will tell the US to back off while it deals with North Korea through “diplomatic means.” This will be an unacceptable option for the US, so things will escalate from there.
China may even go all the way and use this as an excuse to invade Taiwan, but that may be a stretch. If China does go after Taiwan, then we’re all really nailed, because we do NOT have the naval resources to fight two major naval conflicts plus support our efforts in the Middle East. Something will have to give, and unless we mobilize all of our naval assets for a major war, then somebody will have to be thrown under the bus. Before Obama decides to reduce the size of our armed forces, especially our Navy, he had better think long and hard about the above scenarios. If not, we may be in the same position the Royal Navy was in at the start of World War II. Due to too many naval committments around the world, they were barely able to hang on until the United States entered the war to save them. Problem is, this time around, there is nobody out there to save us.
LS46,
With all respect, I believe that your analysis of our ability to bring sufficient naval forces to bear is flawed, though your scenario of how the US and China could be drawn into conflict is completely rational.
China had developed plans to counter our Carrier Action Groups (CAG), and deployed and trained their forces according to the assumptions of the number of carriers we’d be able to sortie. I believe that their assumption was two carriers. During Summer Pulse ’04 where we demonstrated the ability to sortie 7 (of 12 at the time)carriers. The Fleet Response Plan has the reqirement that the Navy maintain the ability to scramble 6 carriers within 30 days, with 2 more available within 3 months from a ‘go’ order.
When the Chinese saw this, it immediately shook their confidence because they do *not* have the ability to meet 3 CAGs and their attendant aircraft. The Navy would still have the ability to respond to other hotspots around the globe with the other 3 (plus another 2 in 90 days).
China lacks both the air assets as well as amphibious craft to invade the island of Taiwan. Plus, they lack the assets to protect such an invasion force, even from a smaller air force and navy such as Taiwan’s.
The scary thing for this Sailor is that China has been intensely developing a ‘carrier killer’ ballistic missile, and buying all of the Russian Kilo-class submarines that they can. I suspect that their calculus now would be to dissuade us from bringing our carriers anywhere close to Taiwan as they (the Chinese PLAN) try to enforce a blockade of the island in order to coerce reconciliation on Mainland China’s terms.
At that point, the Chinese are testing our *political* will, and not our military might, gambling that our leadership would not be willing to risk the loss of a strategic asset. Given the historical US bias towards non-confrontation with China, and the perception that our current CinC would have less than a muscular response, I believe that we’ll see this scenario before 2012.
Your comment really started to calm me and then it scared the *&@! out of me! I’ve been saying that China will, in the next 15 years probably, try and start a war with us. I think we can win, if our politicians are like Churchill and not Carter/Obama.
CPO Mack, what you say may be true. However, what I never hear in any analysis of a major naval confrontation with a power like China is, what happens if we actually lose one or two aircraft carriers? Think about it, we have not lost a major naval unit since World War II. What if we lost two carriers in a war with China, with a combined loss of almost 10,000 men and women? In addition, this will be a “come as you are” war, meaning what we have is what we got, so if we lose two carriers we will not be able to replace them very quickly, if at all.
As I said, everything you say about the carriers may be true, but I think our policies, let alone a naval offensive against China, will rapidly fall apart if we suffer substantial losses in the opening phases of a war with China. China’s trump card will be to hit us hard and fast, before we can send reinforcements into the area (much like Japan had to do right after 7 December 1941). This almost worked for Japan in World War II, when, at one time, we had only one operational carrier in the area after the Battle of Midway (I believe it was the Enterprise, after we lost Hornet at the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands). But, if we don’t have enough carriers to send into the area after we lose a few, where do we go from there? And I’m not even counting if we lose some escorts too, such as some of our cruisers or destroyers.
A war with China will be primarily a naval war. I just hope we’ll be ready when it comes.
LS46,
First, anybody chosing the moniker “LibertyShip” is alright in my book. So, I’ll advance my argument, but bear with me if my limited writing abilities inadvertently offend. I’m much better at this in person. Also, forgive me if my tone comes off as condescending, as I’ll be trying to write for a non-Naval audience as well.
You gave four implicit assertions/premises that I absolutely agree with:
1) a confrontation between China and the US will be primarily naval
2) the loss of two carriers, and 10,000 Sailors, would be a game changer
3) it will not be a war of industrial might like WWII (“come as you are”)
4) China’s strategy will hinge on a war waged quickly
For technical reasons, the loss of a carrier would be extraordinarily difficult for China to effect. We have a number of highly capable (more than 10) submarines in the Pacific, many forward based in Guam, to counter much of China’s submarine threat. Also, our CIWS and anti-ballistic missile systems (Aegis and SM3′s) go a long way towards countering cruise missiles and carrier killer ballistic missiles.
I think where you and I differ on conclusions is from #2 above. I agree that the loss of 1 or 2 carriers, plus there 5000 Sailors apiece, would fundamentally change the dynamic. I believe that you would argue that the loss would materially affect our ability to wage a naval battle, and that combined with a quick war would mean that we would have difficulty moving other carriers from other areas to replace them, and that it would be several *years* before we could build new ones.
On the first point, the Navy has the ability to sortie 5 carriers immediately, with another 2 within 90 days, as demonstrated by Summer Pulse ’04. So I think that we still could absorb the loss of two carriers, and retain the ability to credibly confront the Chinese. Absolutely, we lack the capability to build new carriers fast enough to replace them before a conflict is over, though.
Here’s where we need to push the analysis further. The actual loss of even one carrier and its 5,000 Sailors (a bigger loss than 9-11) would have effects diametrically counter to what the Chinese desire. This would cause the American public to demand a response and galvanize American sentiment against China.
Further, each of our carriers is a strategic asset, and our enemies know that an attack on our declared strategic assets (much less 5,000 lives, more than Pearl Harbor) invites retaliation of the highest order. I believe that this would open up China to such devastating repercussions like destroyed harbors (all of them), attacks on their own industrial base, attacks on infrastructure (like those enormous dams), etc.
This leads to my biggest fear in a possible war with China. If we bring carriers to the battle, I think their goal will be to neutralize them without destroying them. Since a carrier’s entire reason for existence is to launch aircraft, then all you have to do is degrade that capability. The two main ways would be to damage their screws (propellers) or the flight deck.
I think that China would try and hit some or all of the four screws on a carrier, preventing it from getting enough speed to launch aircraft. With this limited attack, China negates the carrier as a war asset *without* arousing the American public’s ire with massive loss of US lives.
We could push this one step further. What if China announced that Taiwain is worth an all-out confrontation with the US, and of strategic value to them (for example, ensuring the security of their sea lanes)? They then state that our carriers are fair game in order to reclaim their ‘renegade province’and ensure their own security. In that scenario, would the US risk parts of our Navy? Would our leadership risk a credible escalation of force? Will our leadership consider Taiwan worth the risk of further economic instability with a military conflict with our largest trading partner and holder of significant amounts of our debt?
In this case, it’s not a question of what President Obama would do, but a question of what China *thinks* President Obama will do. In their eyes, does he seem a credible deterrent to their actions. I fear that we may be coming to a time when their answer is “no”.
CPO, you bring up many excellent points. And I do agree with most of them. However, one thing you said truly alarmed me: “Further, each of our carriers is a strategic asset, and our enemies know that an attack on our declared strategic assets (much less 5,000 lives, more than Pearl Harbor) invites retaliation of the highest order. I believe that this would open up China to such devastating repercussions like destroyed harbors (all of them), attacks on their own industrial base, attacks on infrastructure (like those enormous dams), etc.”
To me, that would be the essence of the problem: Escalation. We could sustain some really bad losses, such as the sinking of one or two carriers, some of the surface escorts (which wouldn’t be small potatos, either), but still be able to inflict major damage on mainland China. But would we risk that? If we start hitting mainland China hard, really hard, how would they retaliate against us? Some dangerous people in the Pentagon have even floated the idea of putting large conventional warheads on some of our Trident missiles. Although that could cause enormous damage to a Chinese target, how would the Chinese know that the large ballistic missile headed their way had a conventional warhead? Conversely, if our radars pick up a large ballistic missile launch from China and it’s headed for one of our carriers, how would we know it wasn’t a nuclar missile?
This could easily degenerate into a nuclear confrontation, especially if we start losing a lot of ships and feel that we are losing the war. It’s sort of like the same situation when NATO was facing the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union in Europe during the Cold War. If we start seeing ballistic missiles headed our way, and the Chinese see the same thing headed their way, the leaders of both nations will have only seconds to decide whether or not to launch something more devestating at the other side, or risk being obliterated themselves. This is how nuclear wars start.
And remember, China could always launch a shot across our bow, say fire a nuclear missile against Guam. It would cause much damage and many casualties and it would send a clear message to us on how serious the Chinese are in winning this war. But would we risk nuclear war over Guam? Would we retailiate by firing a nuclear missile against Hainan Island? You can see where this is going.
I don’t know, but I do know I’d sleep a lot better at night if we had 15 carrier battle groups. We could also start turing some islands into unsinkable carriers, like Midway island was during World War II and use them as launching points for aircraft the moment there was a crisis. With modern radars and anti-aircraft missiles, it would be hard to take out these islands, unless you fired nuclear missiles at them. I’m thinking Okinawa, the Palau Islands, and maybe if we ask real nice an island or two in the Philippines.
My rantings may seem like paranoia, but I never knew a country that could get into too much trouble that was very well armed and well prepared.
LibertyShip,
Despite the seriousness of the topic, I’m squeezing more enjoyment out of gaming this scenario out with you than anything else the last day. Give us a map and some beer, and we’d solve this problem!
I’ve been dwelling on what you identified as the heart of the problem: escalation. I keep wondering how China could get what they want (Taiwan) without disrupting too much their relationship with us, and the rest of the world. I tried to imagine the most obvious options that they could escalate without risking more than what they would gain.
I think a nuclear exchange is off the table. Even under our current administration, ballistic missile defense has continued, with incremental steps towards full capability. We have interceptors in Alaska and in Vandenburg, as well as naval based systems which we could keep out of China’s striking range. East Asia is the one place on the globe where we enjoy a layered ballistic defense. Also, the Airborne Ballistic Laser (ABL) is reaching a level of maturity where it is starting to pose a credible ability to shoot down theater ballistic missiles. The Chinese do *not* posses enough nuclear-tipped missiles to guarantee saturation of our defenses like Russia does.
Your idea of a nuclear shot across the bow is interesting. What if they dailed it back slightly. Instead of using it as an attack on Guam or similiar, what if they detonated one underwater off their coast, or near some uninhabited islands (China also clams the Spratley’s). It demonstrates both a capability, and leaves ambiguous their willingness to use one. The more I think about it, the more this scenario might make imminent sense to China.
They might employ asymetric warfare, like massive denial-of-service attacks and similiar, shutting down the internet. But, one of my operating premises is that they don’t want to give the American people much cause for ratcheting up the use of force.
The US has put satellites under the “strategic asset” umbrella, right after China demonstrated the capability to hit things in low earth orbit. They probably also have the capability to hit satellites in MEO/GEO (like our GPS systems, and our communications birds). But, would the American public really consider that an assalt on our being, like an attack no our soil, ships, or our cyberspace? I wonder…But, if they did then I think that that would give us the pretext of ‘weaponizing’ space, something that no one could really compete with us.
They couldn’t really bring ground troops to bear *except* on the Korean Penninsula. Would China be willing to sponsor the North’s move into the South? Certainly, elininating or weakening a key ally that close to them might be attractive, and a ground war is one place that they enjoy superior numbers, as well as a very short logistics train. I hadn’t considered a widening of the conflict to Korea as response before…
Again, my worry is not whether we have enough carrier groups (I want 15 carriers as well instead of our current 11), but whether our leadership willing to *use* them. I don’t think that maintainnig an independent democracy in Taiwan is at the top of President Obama’s list, and I think that the American people are entering into an isolationist mindset.
Holy crap! A timid foreign policy, an isolationist population, world wide economic instability…When have we had that combination before? I think I just talked myself into paranoia.
CPO Mack, I certainly hope people at the White House are engaging in a similar discussion as ours, for all of our sakes! However, I think we would get more results if we held our own “beer summit,” and I would even supply the map!
Escalation is still my biggest fear with the Chinese, just like John Kennedy was afraid the Cuban Missile Crisis would spin out of control very quickly through simple miscalculation or sheer stupidity. The Chinese may not want a nuclear war (even though nobody wants one, except, maybe, the Iranians, but that’s a whole different story), but one side could be forced against the wall if it sees their side losing control of the situation. And when it comes to the Chinese, I sometimes think of what Mao once said. During the cold war, he said something to the effect that, “If we kill 250 million Americans, we will destroy the United States. If the United States kills 250 million Chinese, we will still have about one billion people left.” Granted, Mao was never one to dwell on the quality of life of those who would survive a nuclear war, but he did have a point. I wonder if the hardcore Chinese communists still believe that?
As for our anti-ballistic missile defense and Airborne Ballistic Laser (ABL), which is basically a 747 with a powerful laser beam on it, well, nothing is perfect. Lets say that both of these systems work say 80% of the time (and that’s being generous). If 20% of the Chinese nukes get through it would probably destroy most of this country, certainly the bulk of the west coast. And I’m not even considering if the Chinese use something really, really, nasty, such as an Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) missile attack that would essentially destroy this country in a matter of moments. A recent book on the subject, One Second After, pretty much lays out this scenario and what it would do to this nation. And we have not even discussed chemical or biological weapons the Chinese may have hidden away somewhere.
As you said, they might employ asymetric warfare, especially against our carrier battle groups. In one of the most recent issues of the US Naval Institute Proceedings, there was an article about a new class of Chinese stealth fast attack craft (FACs) and their sole purpose seems to be to attack a carrier battle group with lots of cruise missiles from possibly several different directions. Add to that a few diesel-electric submarines attacking at the same time, then add to that Chinese Migs equipped with cruise missiles attacking at the same time, and throw in a few land-based cruise missiles fired at the carrier battle group, and it isn’t inconceivable that a single carrier battle group could be attacked by about 100+ cruise missiles at roughly the same time, as well as a few torpedoes fired from submarines as well. I know our defenses are good, but I don’t know any admiral that would think that an attack by over 100 cruise missiles from various directions on a carrier battle group would be easy to survive, let alone defeat. Even if only 20 get through, they could do an enormous amount of damage, even though a modern carrier could absorb a number of hits. We just don’t know how many is “too many,” before the ship goes down.
I firmly believe that, if there was a war with China, the Chinese would put everything on the table, including Taiwan, North Korea invading South Korea, and possibly even picking a fight with Japan over some obsure islands. China has no love for Japan, but Japan has a powerful navy, one that could be very useful in any confrontation between China and the United States. China may decide that Japan has to be neutralized militarily or at least intimidated into neutrality, so as to keep them out of the fight. Japan would probably reluctantly help us, and so would the Australians (every little bit helps). I won’t count the New Zealanders because they have a whopping two frigates to enter into the fray, so they may as well stay home.
But, I don’t know. I get the feeling that China is more bluster than action. We still have not considered what a war with the United States would do to the Chinese economy (it would probably destroy it) and we certainly could cut off their oil supply to the Middle East, which would certainly kill what was left of their economy. Remember, the Chinese government still has to feed over one billion people and, with the economy in shambles, you’re talking about living standards that would probably be worse than during one of Mao’s Cultural Revolutions. Remember, many Chinese have been “corrupted” by Western habits and luxuries and they would not take very kindly to turning the clock back to 1949.
Who knows, maybe the best weapon we have against the Chinese is to keep “corrupting” them with western material goods, music, the Internet, and electronic appliances. Many of the rich Chinese would be loathe to go to war with their best customer, the United States. But I certainly agree with you that the current administration would have little stomach for standing up to a major Chinese provocation.
But, like I said before, I would sleep better at nights with 15 carrier battle groups, at least five more Wasp class amphibious assault ships added to the ones we already have, a 400 ship Navy (Reagan wanted 500 but, hey, I’m a realist; I’ll take 400), and a few hardened island naval bases with long runways equipped with several new squadrons of P-8A Poseidon patrol/attack aircraft. That plus a plan on how to thwart an EMP missile attack would make my day.
Too unrealistic? You’re right, pass me some more beer.
I’ll say it on behalf of the American people: China, you are our enemy. There, now that it is out in the open let’s prepare ourselves to make China hurt even more in our soon to come “hand-to-hand fight.” Oh, and when the missiles start firing, remember that it was Bill Clinton’s White House that provided the Chicoms with the technology. If Bush gave them anything, he needs to be called on it as well.
Stop obsessing about what an unknown Colonel says and focus on what Chairman Hu says. There will always be hawks and doves in any nation, so anyone should understand what harm such words can cause.
Be sincere and consistent in actions as well. Respect the 1China policy and compare how China does not sell weapons to Cuba or other US unfriendly Latin American nations as opposed to the US selling weapons to Taiwan.
I am glad to see that you admit that Washington, like Beijing, is run by imperialistic thugs.
If America were run by imperialistic thugs, America would have taken over China long ago.
These would be good thoughts if they were true.
As centralized as the Chinese communist government is the Premier sneezes and a colonel breaks wind.
China has exported conventional arms to countries which include Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Thailand, North Korea and Bangladesh. These weapons include submarines, various missile types, fighter and transport aircraft, radar intercept devices and artillery pieces.
Taiwan IS the legitimate China, the one China. The other China would be remiss to assume that Taiwan will be an easy conquest, even without US help which is problematic given our current stupidity.
Lastly, no one but no one really wants to confront the Japanese when their precieved national interest is at stake and anything involving Chinese “adventurism” involves the Japanese national interest.
Iraq, Pakistan, Thailand and Bangladesh are not US unfriendly nations are they? And these are countries mostly in Central Asia and Asia. Does the US have more right than nations nearby to ‘project power’ in these regions when US does not even have the respect or goodwill of South American nations? As for North Korea, let us say that it is in China’s best interests to normalize their neighbours. And Iran is a likely a tit for tat response for US’s meddling in Taiwan. Try reversing the Taiwanese weapons sales policies and China will respond in kind on Iran.
Try making friends with parts of Europe to begin with instead of using the IMF to indebt them, and engaging the Middle East with more respect. Finish those wars in the Middle East (or quit the region), remove the Zionists back home to a state of reasonable democratic independence, and solve the multi-trillion dollar debts and dismantle the Federal Reserve before getting all paranoid on China. US has enough problems at home without wanting to make an enemy of China via irresponsible commentators who represent organisations that thrive on war and geo-political chaos.
China’s just doing it’s own thing AND does not have 101 military bases around the world poised to seize ‘rogue’ governments (aka not US/NWO/Zionist puppets). All this meaningless posturing while the unaccountability, irresponsibility and greed of some factions back home have reached unbelievable proportions is a sign of very deep rot, the world needs a peace-loving US reflected in policy and action as well . . .
Heh. No wonder the Chinese government got freaked out about the Red Dawn remake — it’s too accurate.
On my bookshelf sits “Unrestricted Warfare, China’s Master Plan to Destroy America” that was written by two Chinese military officers and was a best seller in China. It’s chilling, my copy is in English, and I bought it in 2002. Also on my bookshelf is “The China Threat, How the People’s Republic Targets America”. It was written by Bill Gertz (who has been writing about this for years)and I purchased it in 2001.
Everybody’s known about this for years. This has to be a plan. It has been this country’s policy to sell China the rope. We know that Bill Clinton took cash from the PLA in return for technology(“Unrestricted Warfare” includes paying off corrupt American politicians), and Jamie Gorelick constructed the wall between the CIA and the FBI to keep him from getting nailed for it. The owners of the MSM probably got some cash as well to ignore it.
Obama is just like Carter, who would likely hand over the country to whomever requests it just because of his hatred of (or ambivalence toward) it.
But what about Bush? What was the quid pro quo there? We are shoving money and technology to people who are preparing to destroy us.
I’m starting to believe there is something to some of these New World Order conspiracy theories.
I have for many years accepted the fact that China wants to take us out. They have aided all of our enemies as much as possible, n korea, iran, muslims, any one that wanted to attack the US. This view dates back to my military years, retired from the USAF in 84.
Our dims have supported anyone and everyone who sought to destroy us, the bush clan came along with their one world order deal and the father was a serious enemy, his son was a bit wiser, though he tended to deal with our enemies like he could make them into friends, in his dreams. zero has signed on to doing us in on the QT.
It will not be a pretty world by the time zero ships out, hopefully America wakes up in time to refuse to allow zero to surrender our nation to the enemy.
I suspect we will fight, if not our military, then our citizens. Will we win, hard to say, but probably a long shot.
Only a complete fool would ever trust the Chinese- or the Russkies. Once a commie, always a commie.With the current resident in the White House a total asshat, our enemies are no doubt licking their lips in anticipation of all the distruction the “o” will accomplish for them without them having to fire a single warshot.Our country in a weakened state may be all the encouragement these vultures need to start a fracas. If I lived in Taiwan, or Japan, I would be scared s###less. . . the “o” will do nothing to help defend them.I doubt he willdo anything to defend us, but he is looking” for an ass to kick”.He needs a good hard kick himself.
Rick, the O-ass needs a whole lot more than a kick in the kiester.
China + Russia = “one clenched fist.” If you don’t believe it now, you will soon enough.
Mr. Sutter might amend his statement to include the words:
‘that we will admit to publicly.’
why the befuddlement? sodomites and nig-nogs in charge, based on “diversity” not competence, feminazis all over the place, so where’s the surprise?
Get lost, moby. We know your kind: You post bigoted crap on here to try to make the whole site look bad. It won’t work.
I think China will confront the US by moving west toward India and the Middle East. It makes more sense to attempt to get natural resources, ports on the Indian Ocean and a 12 month growing season. A confrontation in the Pacific would threaten both Australia and Canada. Japan and Korea would also have a large stake in the conflict. This is a situation that China could not control and offer the opportunity for less gain. A take over of Taiwan and attempt to control the Western Pacific is also possible, but aside from ego I don’t see the benefit to China. Make no mistake China only cares about China. They only do business with the rest of the world because it is good for China, after all everyone else is a lesser person.
It is very unfair to talk like that about China.
It is a Mercantilist state granted, but that is by virtue of the sacrifices of the Blue Collar class here with no privileges or safety nets whatsoever. This is good for the rest of the world, because cheap goods are good for everyone.
If anyone can build cheaper, they are welcome to do so. Instead of blaming the Chinese, thank them for making the fat cat companies and fat cat blue collar citizens of ‘advanced’ nations demand less and make stuff cheaper.
This will not last forever, as with education and civil rights knowledge, the Chinese will start demanding all those privileges in 5-10 years, and unless technology begins to make things cheaper, the days of cheap goods worldwide will end with the maturing blue collar rights in China.
On top of that, the Chinese were once isolationist. They tried being peaceful once, closing their doors on everything, but barbarians attacked, forced open ports, and attempted to annexe and colonise the peaceful people. Doesn’t that say something of the Chinese nature? They did not go around trying to colonise nations or force religion down people’s throats even though they had the most advanced technology earlier on.
So when they are now being proactive by loosening the leash on their attack dogs, to allow them to bark and warn abit, so that the same doesn’t happen again, why should anyone get upset? Anyone ever consider that China deserves reparations from the Colonial powers for near a century of harm? For the loss of lives in 2 Opium Wars, for the suffering inflicted intentionally on hapless citizens because some nations had a trade deficit due to tea and porcelain imports? From annexing of territories that had belong to China over a thousand years?
There is only 1 800lb gorilla in the room, and if it would stop interfering in the Middle East and even Far East, much less Europe, the world would be a better place. Could US citizens please vote for people who cause less trouble to the world so that Chinese hawk Colonels won’t have to say anything upsetting or supposedly imperialist to the ears of ‘advanced nations’?
Just keep buying them Chinese products….fools.
“They were wrong. On June 3 the Chinese foreign ministry announced that the Defense secretary was in fact not welcome. Gates, who also thought he would travel to Beijing this month, said the turndown was just the military’s fault. “Nearly all of the aspects of the relationship between the United States and China are moving forward in a positive direction, with the sole exception of the military-to-military relationship,” he said on his way to Singapore. “The PLA is significantly less interested in developing this relationship than the political leadership of the country.””
It may very well be the military’s fault and not the civilians. The trouble is that in China, the PLA has an enormous amount of influence over how policy’s made – sure, they answer to the CCP civilians, but the tail wags the dog to a considerable degree. As the Chinese move away from pure communism and are forced to rely on simple nationalism as the unifying force holding the country together, the military’s place in the system becomes even more preeminent. And as the modernization of China’s economy goes on, the military’s capacities are improving year after year.
That’s a roundabout way of saying that, yes, Mullen should indeed be concerned. Whether or not there is a direct threat to the U.S. military, there’s certainly a direct threat to our interests in the region over the long term, and certainly a threat to our allies there.
I would not be surprised if the Russians are also preparing to shoot Americans, and are several smaller states although they all have Muslim in common with each other. The Chinese military does not scare me. They can not walk to the United States. They could do some damage but not near as much as we could or as fast or as thoroughly as our military if they were ever unleashed. I am quite confident that if the United States were ever attacked and we did not have a bunch of incompetents in charge like now we could win what ever war comes about with any one quite handily. The only tactic that seems to have a chance of succeeding is terrorism since it is so empowered by the left and the left controlled institutions in our country.
I used to agree with you. However, our leadership has enacted unreasonable ROE’s that render our military impotent. I have no faith that ZerObama’s admin will retaliate in response to any aggression on America. It would be unseemly. We would just have to understand their pain or some crap like that.
My concern is that the Chinese will wait until they can remove our ability to fight. They have been working on the ability to take out our power grids. They can totally trash our money and make it worthless and they are working to hack into the banking system to befuddle and wipe away financial records. Our money exists as little more than a record of it on some computer, and if all those files get corrupted or wiped out, we won’t really have any money anymore. Lastly, since we purchase so much of our day to day items from them, what’s going to happen when they cut that off? I don’t think we should be complacent.
Earth to anyone in America listening.
China began a rearmament plan in 1992 to be completed in 2012. It is on track. China bribed Clinton and Gore. Clinton in 1999 as “paymaster king” resurrected the “King of the Mongols” in a secret deal in New Zealand. The result was opening economic fora to the Chinese, a nation with a completely alien fascist system of government and finance.
China are totally committed to the destruction and conquest of the West. Any so-called China expert saying different is at best a fool and at worst an apologist or puppet. China is yet another form of national socialism. The end. And lest anyone still kid themselves as to their power, check out the link on my blogroll to the Chinese military blog. It lists unambiguously and with no need for propaganda their astonishing current power projection. Added to which they have 30,000,000 surplus military age men. That means a guaranteed world war.
So wake up.
“‘Loose the four angels bound at the banks of the great River Euphrates.’ So the four angels were released, who were prepared for this hour, day, month and year to kill a third of the human race. The number of cavalry troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.”-Revelation 9:14-16
China could roll over us if it wasnt for the nukes. Obama will take care of getting rid of that defense and soon it will be chaos.
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. The last time the US directly fought the Chinese (in the Korean War) we killed over 400,000 of their soldiers. A big army doesn’t necessarily mean a good army.
China has 30 million soldiers, and Gen. MacArthur is dead.
54,000,000. plus 30,000,000 EXTRA troops to induct. Chinese also have regional forces that include USA technology state of the art missiles capable of killing aircraft carriers, or indeed, the Pentagon building. It’s on.
How many troops could we muster, considering Iraq and Afghanistan? Also, how many JAG and DOJ lawyers will be embedded with US troops to ensure that: 1) US troops do not fire unless fired upon, and only after confirmation that the fire was indeed hostile AND unprovoked; 2) Upon the capture of any enemy soldiers that they are read their Miranda rights and provided access to an attorney at taxpayer expense; 3) to monitor the actions of US forces to show China and the world that any US soldier shouting racial epithets at Chinese soldiers will be persecuted for hate crimes.
The only situation that Obama would defend this country is IF AND ONLY IF failure to do so would, without doubt, cement Republican majorities in this country for the next generation.
I saw it in the movies.
Remember the horse head in bed ?
Remember..any number of SF plots
featuring assassination by machine ?
If China’s leaders get too rough, a drone
will come in through the bedroom window,
protected by a silver spoon..no,no,.. I mean
after the sneaky little recon droid IDs the target.
You’re making the Chinese military a bigger threat than it really is. I’m not saying we should take them lightly, but most of their threats right now is braggadocio. The Chinese military is a paper tiger. They have a mass of poorly trained, conscripted soldiers and their weapons and equipment are second rate. Their navy is a joke. Their only real advantages are their numbers and the threat of their nukes.
We shouldn’t roll over and beg just because some Chinese general has a big chip on his shoulder and feels inadequate about his manhood.
Naman wrote “You’re making the Chinese military a bigger threat than it really is…The Chinese military is a paper tiger. They have a mass of poorly trained, conscripted soldiers and their weapons and equipment are second rate. Their navy is a joke. Their only real advantages are their numbers and the threat of their nukes.”
Naman, it is always a mistake to under-estimate a would-be opponent, and the Chinese were an advanced civilization when Europeans were living in mud huts.
Is the U.S. military capable? Without a doubt, but it is far less dominant than the chestbeaters here would have you believe. That is especially true with an opponent such as China. That nation could swallow our entire military without a burp. Moreover, the Communist way of war – Soviet/Russian as well as Chinese -favors quantity over quality, and quantity has – you may have heard – a quality all its own. The U.S. idea that our superiority in weapons systems will overcome the PRC numerical advantage is a fantasy, especially now that the PLAN is approaching first-tier standards. A U.S. carrier battle group might shoot down many incoming wave-skimming supersonic antiship missiles, but a concerted attack with dozens of them would sink the carrier and perhaps most of its support fleet, at a very acceptable return in losses for the ChiComs. Thier diesel submarine fleet is working hard to become undetectable to our best detection methods, and again, they can afford to lose many subs for every vessel they sink. The PLAN can trade small subs for carriers or frigates all day long. And these are just naval examples, I won’t belabor the point with air or ground warfare. The Chinese have proved their mettle in these also.
Moreover, the Chinese are systematically weakening us without resorting to war, at the same time they are building themselves up. Read your Sun Tzu – the best commander achieves victory before taking the field of battle, or manages to do so without fighting. Looking at our sovereign debt problem, and the place-of-maufacture of many goods on U.S. shelves, I’d say the PRC is beating us down quit nicely without resorting to conventional weapons of war.
IMO, the USA should exploit tensions between the Russians and the Chinese, as the latter have long coveted the riches of sparsely-populated Siberia, and both nations have shot at one another over the region in fairly recent past in border incidents. Japan is also rearming quite heavily, if somewhat on the quiet, to avoid inflaming regional tensions. We could also exploit tensions over the oil-rich Spratley Islands in the South China Sea, which are contested by multiple regional players – Vietnam, the PRC, Japan, etc.
styrgwillidar wrote, “The US and Chinese economies are too intertwined for China to ever get into a wide-scale conflict with the US…” It is a widely-held fallacy of history that economic partners do not go to war with one another. True, economic interdependence can lessen the urge to war, but just as often it can fail to do so, i.e., as in the case of WWI, when the Great Powers of Europe, trading partners all, slaughtered each other for four years. The U.S. entered the war after trading with both sides.
Anonymous wrote, “You obviously don’t pay much attention to the military we field, they are exceptional, the chinese nor the ruskies can match them in battle…” That remains to be seen, Anon. Neither opponent is one we should ignore or minimize. Both have proven exceptionally tough to conquer in the past, and tough opponents in the Cold War era, as well as staunch allies in WWII. America is a much-weaker nation, relative to either of them, than it was in WWII or the Cold War. Seeing the trouble our military is having closing the deal against guerillas in Iraq and Afgahnistan, we should get on our knees and pray we do not have to fight a peer opponent anytime soon. That is, unless you want to see a national emergency declared, and our young people drafted. I do agree with you about the “hgeavily armed red-necks” part of your post, though; but I don’t worry about the PRC or Russia invading us. Do you? It’s more Mexico I am concerned about, thanks.
Pete,
I agree that it is foolish to underestimate a potential enemy. However, I believe that your assessment in China’s or Russia’s military might is significantly off-base.
Despite 9 years of fighting insurgencies, the US military is still structured to fight force-on-force, and is maximized to crush mass formations of troops/tanks/etc. Withuot meaningful exception, the US military is far better equiped and massively better trained that their counterparts in China or Russia.
Systemically, Chinese and Russian tactical commanders are *not* encouraged to use their own initiative. As doctrine, the US military will degrade command, communications, and control elements, and this lack of control from their respective HQ’s would paralyze the disparate parts.
However, I don’t think that we would face either country’s ground force in a total war situation for any near-term scenario. For China specifically, it would be either a limited proxy fight in the Korean penninsula, or naval/air clash in the vicinity of Taiwan. Perhaps it could be both at the same time if things went really wrong.
Norht Korea has a strangle hold on Seoul. The capital of South Korea is withiin artillery range of the North since the cease fire, and has been the biggest reason that the South has put up with the North’s multiple acts of war in the past. This vulnerability, combined with China’s continued patronage and protection leads me to believe that the latest outrage, the sinking of the Cheonan, will *not* result in a shooting war between the Koreas. Were it *any* other two countries involved, there would have been a declared war within a week after the incident.
That leaves a potential conflict regarding Taiwan. China, despite its build-up of missiles, ships, subs, and air force still cannot complete with US force. Period. Their subs are not quiet enough, nor numerous enough, to prevent carrier air support in the vicinity of Taiwan. Point defense systems (CIWS) and even our nascent ballistic-missile defense (Naval based Aegis and SM-3′s) also prevent China from guaranteed kills on our carriers. Additionally, the US regards carriers as strategic assets, which an attack or attempted attack would invite a far more vigorous response from us.
The far more likely course of action is that China would leave ambiguous it’s intention to attack carriers in the vicinity of Taiwan, letting our own doves in Congress and a timid command structure from risking a strategic asset (we have 11 active carriers). This would chiefly be to shape the perceptions of the Taiwanese population that it is indeed alone in their struggle to stay separate from mainland China. Once this wedge is driven in, the Taiwanese people would be far more likely to enter in some form of reunification talks, a condition of which would be to spurn any further US military assistance.
I see China winning what they want (Taiwan) without a single shot between them and the US. However, I still have the hope that an emerging middle class, continued dalliances with free enterprise zones, etc, will lead to an eventual liberalization of China, with continued baby-steps towards a functional democracy. Perhaps that is a vain hope.
Yes, chinese rant with gusto, much like most third world sorts, sadam hussein, ranted, has his butt handed to him, no silver platter. We kicked commie butt in Korea, the North Vietnamese did it to them again, chinese decided to show those uppity vietnamese a thing or two after the war with the US ended, did not pan out for the chinese, Vietnamese handed their butts to them also.
We handed the N vietnamese their butts in 72, well minced, they were happy to see us leave. The church crowd screwed the S Vietnamese over real well, cut off all support and funding in 75, the assorted other commie outfits, soviets, commie chicoms strongly support the north. The rest is history. This is not sequential, go do your history lessons, report back when completed.
China will win any land war in Asia; Dr. Manhattan and the Watchmen
could not turn the tide of troops the Chinese can put in the field.
What are the war winning options for the US: Sea, Air, Space ?
A war of assassination against the Chinese leadership might work,
but the retaliation would be ruthless; God help any US POWs.
The situation is hopeless, but not serious, unless the US tries
to bluff with a busted Flush, and ends up losing a CBG, a MEF,
whatever, before it admits that China will control Asia.
A Chinese army could win against any enemy, with whatever weaponry (other than nukes), just by walking at them. Any enemy would run out of ammo ere the Chinese ran out of willing cannon-fodder.
“China is the only large power in the world preparing to shoot Americans.”
What about Russia?
You also forgot the current regime in the District of Obama
China has been increasingly brazen about the undeclared war they are waging against us. The weakness of our current regime may provide a tipping point for the Chinese to overtake us militarily and diplomatically throughout Asia, and emboldens them. China is obviously using North Korea as a proxy, and locking up natural resources in Africa and elsewhere to deny us access to them. Our manufacturing sector’s heavy dependence on China has created terrible strategic weakness that could paralyze us in an open conflict. I think there is a significant, and increasing, probability that China will attempt to conquer Taiwan during the Obama regime’s first term.
Let us remember the role that unions, regulation and taxes have played in forcing our manufacturing companies to expand overseas rather than here. Let us also remember the role that the State Department under both Powell and Rice, but especially under Powell, played in undermining the Defense Department. Let us remember that the cancer of Marxist “political correctness” has infected our military culture and weakened both our ability and our willingness to defend our country. Lastly, let us remember that a federal government that spends itself into bankruptcy on consumer subsidies such as welfare, socialized medicine, and subprime mortgages makes it ever more difficult to rebuild our military power in the future.
A final word of pessimistic reality: Everyone says there is no problem until the situation passes the tipping point and the crisis materializes, and then afterward they all say the signs were obvious. It is a terrible mistake not to face squarely the serious problems our politicians have created for us.
This is a very poignant statement:
“It is a terrible mistake not to face squarely the serious problems our politicians have created for us.”
And I wish more people thought that way.
BobN writes: “…China will attempt to conquer Taiwan during the Obama regime’s first term.”
Your otherwise solid analysis was sullied but the laughable use of the quantifier “first” in describing Obama’s length of time at the helm. Four years will be all that rational and sane people will be able to take. Now, do we have a lot of irrational and insane people? Sure. But by November 2012 the mask will be completely off and there won’t be another term for the current regime.
I’m curious as to what you believe McCain/Palin would have done different?
The Taiwanese are Chinese as well, there is no need for China to conquer anyone. It is political power mongers within local parties that have no regard for the lives on either side of the straits and that the Taiwanese would be far better off rejoining China than being a US(Illuminati/NWO) puppet.
Try getting the Zionists out of your own home nation first and getting out of the Middle East and closing down all those offensive military bases worldwide before even engaging the Far East in supposed friendly overtures. Having Japan by the throat in Okinawa is enough of a deterant to any development in friendly ties with any nation worldwide anytime soon.
Oh and what has the UN and Security Council done so far to punish the US/England for the unilateral war on Iraq that resulted in 100s of thousands killed? Nothing? And when Iran exercise it’s 2nd Amendment Rights in building nuclear deterants or asking for S300 defenses, the IAEA sanctions them? Why has Israel the right to own nukes but Iran has not? Racism and religious discrimination are ways of fascist regimes, which US increasingly looks set to become. At least stop projecting power via the 1000s of military bases around the world for a start, then talk.
Since when does Iran have “Second Amendment rights?” They’d have to be using the U.S. Constitution. They don’t. Under sharia, no one has rights — only obligations to submit to Islamic authority and kill infidels. “Islam” does not mean “peace”, but “submission”.
They do not, but the US should extend all the democratic freedoms it believes in for itself to all other nations of the world. The world’s super power could do no less ! And in sharing these freedoms, the obligation to respect the US will come later . . .
Also, Islam is not all like you think. Under sharia, Muslims have obligations to submit to Islamic authority but non-Muslims do not. There are some very prominent Muslims who can make the distinction between both Muslim and non-Muslim and respect the rights as well as impose the responsibilities.
Speaking as if Islam was blindly oppressive does not make a case for better relations, nor encourage better behaviour and only re-affirms the wrong application of the religion for the lunatic fringe among Muslims. If properly studied, your understanding of Islam was not what the Prophet had intended in application, though in SOME (and only SOME) places what you say is true.
Talking like that is insulting, insensitive and provokes worse behaviour from Muslims, especially the less educated and emotional among them. How about a little apology to all Muslims reading here and a pledge to not label all Muslims like this in the future? It’s not helping the situation.
There are Muslims where I reside, and everyday is a struggle for quite a number them in trying to differentiate their rights and the rights of non-Muslims. Help them think clearly by being patient and polite, yet not conceding when they encroach on your rights.
There is no harm in engaging a fellow human being at their level if only to teach them what self determinism and the right to self expression is about, even while they themselves may choose to never experience it. Is this not supposed to be the American way, embrace of diversity? Or have I set too high a standard for ‘Superpower Nation’?
Relax, Obama has his eye on the real problems, Israel and the Tea Party.
On the bright side, we will be reducing defense budgets, so chin up.
He has his eye on the ball….it just happens to be a Calloway.
Yes, “ahem.” but the difference is Russia is a wannabe. China is more like a teen busting with hormones. Millions of guys with no women. And an inferiority complex of gargantuan proportions. Yes, both Russia and China still play their domino games in Asia but China is the more dangerous of the two. Russia needs economic and resource riches. China needs psychological power to ease the burdens of the billion plus population who still don’t have a toilet, running water, or electricity. Lives of their people are cheap to them, ala, Mao, and his great revolution. Now they want to take the terror and make the “sacrifice” someone else’s fault. Why not America when she is at her weakest? My guess is when this happens, ‘ol Barry will shit himself and have to be carted off to the funny farm. The rest will be left in the hands of the remaining warriors who have no qualms making mincemeat out of the Chinese hoard that will come our way.
Mistakes of the past with limited tribunals following WW2 in both Europe and Japan, need to be corrected. Hold ALL leadership accountable for starting such craziness. While this might make only a few of them think twice, think about the savings had just one brave soul sacrificed themselves by taking out Hitler. Against this they face the certain knowledge that should they survive a confrontation, they will eventually have to pay the price anyway.
But history has a way of correcting itself even if the cost is great. Our own leaders need to be held accountable. Time to clean house and get rid of the socialists who think they are in league with the Red Commies. Should the Reds win, they will be the first to go anyway because they are the elites, the intelligencia, at least in their own minds.
Meanwhile, Obambi killed Army expansion, missile defense and the F-22. Way to go, peaceniks.
And I doubt Hu Jin Tao has forgotten the tantrum Obambi threw at him in Copenhagen, either.
I don’t agree China is the only great power in the world, as well as Russia. I agree with one of the World Future reporting period by the NIC that is precisely the Caliphate became a major force in the world and save the world.
What are you smoking, must be much stronger then you are used to. Muslims are not particularly technically proficient. They can function in advanced societies, using stolen technology, but just what have they created in the last several centuries other then a dull knife for crudely chopping heads off. They are big on sneaky and deception, but they are not real big on technology. Steal it, yes, design it, not a snow balls chance in hell.
Whitey, the American sort are not noted for manners once someone gets them spun up, we do kill real well. Left of course has to get them selves terminated and then we can get after it. After all, hate to get those little PC kiddies all upset.
China intends to get a return on its investment in military power,
not waste it by engaging in full-scale conventional war with the US,
and _certainly_ not by engaging in the Mutually Assured Destruction
of Global Thermonuclear War.
Supreme skill in warfare consists in convincing the enemy to surrender
without a fight, even allowing the conquered to save face by preserving
the appearance of independence; This is already happening in Taiwan, and
may happen in Japan. India would be a valuable acquisition, and colonies
in Africa would also prove profitable; The US needs to be hurt badly
enough to convince it not to make these conquests more expensive than
necessary by attempting to oppose them. If the Us is foolish enough to
leave any of its overseas territory vulnerable, so much the better;
Hawaii, or Alaska, would make excellent hostages.
Nuclear war with America isn’t MAD for China, it’s suicide by cop. China can kill millions of Americans, but it can’t destroy the US. The US, however, can wipe China off the map in thirty minutes.
In your wish fulfillment day dreams, which are hazardous to my health.
Back in the day of MAD, Herman Kahn thought about the unthinkable, and
concluded that losing more than 1/4 of the US population would destroy
the US of A; Whatever successor state survived would would be…nasty.
Furtherandmore, the US society/economy/infrastructure is more fragile
now, vulnerable to a cascade of catastrophes which could be started by
a relative handful of nuclear strikes; Bombing China back to the Stone
Age is not an option.
Of course it is. The Chinese have a handful of ICBMs capable of reaching the United States. A pair of boomers can take these out with high precision, with about 5-7 minutes of warning time for the Chinese to realize what’s about to happen. Alternatively, a stealth bomber flight could put nuclear bombs down each silo. At the same time, leadership targets throughout the PLA can be struck, again, with only a few minutes warning.
After that, cities can be killed with complete impunity.
If that doesn’t sit well with us, we need only use a handful of weapons detonated in high altitude strikes above every principal Chinese regional center, blanketing the country with EMP and devastating China’s poorly shielded infrastructure. For good measure put an ICBM or SLBM in each dam, starting with the Three Gorges megadam.
A whole range of options of death are available, with little chance for Chinese retaliation if we decide to pull the trigger without warning.
Fortunately, for the Chinese, we are not the Chinese and are thus unlikely to use our overwhelming strategic advantage in this brutal and vicious way. Unless the alternatives are worse.
Historically the United States has two modes of war: small and total. What everyone has seen for the last 40 years is America in “small war” mode. The last time we truly embraced total war we traveled around the entire globe and killed millions upon millions of civilians, as needed. Threatening the United States with serious loss, even indirectly, is a very, very bad idea.
..with little chance for Chinese retaliation..
It is now possible to synthesize the smallpox virus.
Neither the US nor China is going to push the other to the existential edge;
Conventional warfare between combatant forces, away from population centers,
is an exchange of another order, one that the US people are not going to ok
just to interfere with China’s establishment of its sphere of influence.
The junior and mid-level officers have been talking about this for years. All the point papers and concerns have been met with: ‘The US and Chinese economies are too intertwined for China to ever get into a wide-scale conflict with the US.’ Decreasing our military investment is therefore an acceptable risk.
No one is willing to pay for the insurance of having a US military sufficiently capable to oppose the military force China is in the process of building.
The key point you make needs extension. Those junior and mid-level officers who have been talking about this for years are now the senior officers attending those international meetings. They have not changed their minds, and they now hold the keys to the machine.
Great article, Gordon. It’s good to see someone collating these informative events. It’s no accident, of course, that the confrontational rhetoric emerged when Obama took office. He’s being probed for his reaction in every quarter of the globe.
China won’t, for the time being, seek a direct confrontation with the US. The Chinese read history like everyone else: they’ll continue confronting and intimidating their neighbors, and watching to see what we do. Among our formal allies, South Korea and Japan are the most geographically vulnerable. If it gets to the point where Beijing senses the latitude to really intimidate them (and not just rattle the saber, as with the showy progress of the PLAN deployment through the Japanese islands this spring), we will have let things go much too far.
We need to do two things right away. First, stop sending big delegations to China. Everyone is sending big delegations to China. The Asian press interprets the parade through China as a revival of the old imperial tribute regime. The US must not participate. It sends the wrong signal to the region; there are things we do have to worry about the appearance of.
Second, reckon up what our bedrock security interests in East Asia are. China under her current leadership wants to change the situation there. Have we even thought, since 1978 or so, about why we don’t want her to? We should not be maneuvering around China, we should be focusing on our own objectives. They should be, in my view, (1) keeping our allies (Japan, South Korea, Thailand, Singapore, the Philippines, and our de facto ally Taiwan) secure and free to chart their own course; (2) keeping the Strait of Malacca and South China Sea open to unfettered, unintimidated maritime trade; (3) fostering a balanced regional security environment in which other nations — Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, Malaysia — can develop without undue pressure from China; and (4) encouraging liberalization in China herself.
As for the Chinese comment about the US encircling China with alliances — damn straight. That doesn’t need to be said out loud to China on a regular basis, but neither should we back off on it. We in North America are insecure if East Asia is ruled by a hostile hegemon, and we can’t let China become one. (In fact, the process of China trying to become one would destabilize the region to everyone’s disadvantage, very much including ours.) That’s one side of the same coin on which the freedom and prosperity of our Asian allies is the other face. Maintaining alliances is much, much better than fighting to neutralize territory from which we are being threatened — and it’s far better than seeing millions of Asians sacrificed to the hegemonic aspirations of an authoritarian state.
I hope the signs are meaningful and the Pacific Navy is shifting away from its excessive zeal to be best buds with China. There’s history there, and not just modern “flag officer good ideas” (FOGIs); the Navy and Air Force both had historical ties with China going back to before WWII. Things look funny from Makalapa. But I agree that the Pacific Navy’s passion for China in the last two decades can’t be justified. We need a more balanced, national-interests-oriented approach.
13. Henry: “why the befuddlement? sodomites and nig-nogs in charge, based on “diversity” not competence, feminazis all over the place, so where’s the surprise?”
I am not a bit surprised, as are doubtless many others. It is about time for another huge war.
China will get to us..one way or another. America is a weak nation and they smell blood.
How did WE get so weak is the question.
Our leaders are more concerned with looking good than being military superior and standing strong!
….i’m taking a class in mandarin…just to be on the safe side…
30. Anonymous
You obviously don’t pay much attention to the military we field, they are exceptional, the chinese nor the ruskies can match them in battle and I don’t think either wants to go there. Japanese passed on that idea also, bunch of crazy red necks, armed, not a pretty picture for the commies of any stripe.
Our leadership is weak, don’t confuse them with America, strength will step up if needed.
Try American history instead of mandrin, much more practical.
Don’t look now, but this nations ‘selective listening’ crosses several other frontiers of ignorance. Islam, Terrorism, Energy, Economics, Sovereignty, our own Constitution, the Peoples voice besides, international diplomacy, allies, the military, free markets, self government are the few from the top of the list.
Now, I’m no political scientist from Harvard, but if you were to ask me what the above constitutes, I’d have to say: An agenda. And not just any agenda, either. But more specifically based on the resulting policies, a Marxist agenda.
But like I said, I’m just a humble, common person with no ties or personal homage to pay to institutional indoctrination centers like Harvard or UC Berkley.
The old saying is true….China is a sleeping Giant, awaken Her and She will Rule the World. America and Europe have awakend Her with Billions of commerce.
For a more clear understanding get out,dust off, and RE-READ “The Art of War” by Sun Tsu. It will be most instructive. While Taiwan is a Headline item for the Chinese they are much more subtle and will spread their influence in areas we are not looking; i.e.; Caribbean, Southwest Asia. They are on the rise for many reasons mostly enabled by the USA’s failure to be a mature thoughtful people. Perhaps the “American century” is truly over. It saddens me to no end.
This generation is so immature, ignorant and weak that nothing can be done to save the nation that was handed to us. Read the article below on how the Chinese are going to kill 2/3 of Americans with a bio warfare attack, then march in and enjoy the new space and intact infrastructure. This is from a speech given by a top Chinese general. It matched exactly the tone and warning of the one above.
http://www.rense.com/general85/China%27sPlanToConquer.htm
This generation of Americans are so spoiled, immature, ignorant and weak that nothing can save America now but Divine Intervention. Seeing our behavior…why would He want to do that?
America is Doomed.
If China wipes out 2/3 of America with a biological attack, we will wipe China off the map WITH OR WITHOUT Obama’s permission. The military will order a full scale nuclear attack WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION IF NEED BE.
What if the survivors are too stupid at the end to connect the dots. By then all our nukes will be in the hands of the Quislings. Don’t discount the fact that our enemies have already made sure the nukes are safely delivered into their control before they act. Otherwise, it is mutually assured destruction.
On the other hand, WWI resulted in the mutual rejection of poison gas given the unpredictable blow back risk. Same risk with biological weapons. If you release a disease that kills 2/3 of the people, what makes you sure you can waltz in and still be immune. I don’t get it. Its just crazy.
China, with modern genetic techniques, can engineer a plague
and a vaccine, verify both by experiments on human subjects,
immunize her population, and have a credible MAD deterrent.
I say again: As of today, it is possible to synthesize smallpox.
Before you can say ‘White Plague’ (10 years?) bio-weapons capable of
destroying the human race will be available; Time to stop playing war.
Leading Chinese General calls for exterminating U.S. population with Biological Attack:
http://www.rense.com/general85/China%27sPlanToConquer.htm
http://www.rense.com/general85/China%27sPlanToConquer.htm
Wow, Rob. That really looks like a credible site, what with all the UFO crap and Noam Chomsky quotes and made-up ‘we control America LOL’ stuff from those nasty JOOOOZ.
Only if they can get the bug into the US missile silos, and aboard the submarines.
More to to point _extirminating_ the US population would not buy China anything;
They need our tech base even more than our consumer market.
The problem that China faces is that its economy is a lot more brittle than ours. Between the loss of trade and the destruction the US military would carry out on their infrastructure, it’s unlikely that China would last more than a few years before it would collapse.
Of course, another problem that China faces from us is that the moment hostilities break out, the feds will likely put our “debt obligations” to the Chinese through a big paper shredder.
China is not a consumer based democracy like the US;
It does not matter what happens to the economy or
the people, as long as the military and the rulers
survive to rebuild after the collapse.
Gen. Petraeus just passed out, right in the middle of testifying before congress. No reports yet what happened.
Robert,
It must leave them in cold sweats at night thinking of the day that some Chinese general sees a vision of a cross in the sky over Beijing with the Chinese equivalent of “Vinces in hoc” etched around it.
Tom Perkins;
Hainan Island is Chinese territory, just like Hawaii is US territory. A Chinese surveillance vessel would never be allowed to sit off Pearl Harbor and operate as the USS Impeccable was operating in Hainan. Its intellectually dishonest to state Hainan Island is international waters, unless we also state the pacific around Pearl harbor are also international waters, and allow any and all to perform the same operations as Impeccable and survey Pearl and its surrounding bases.
If what we sell to Taiwan is not Chinese concern, then what China sells to Iran or any other nation isn’t US concern, using your own definition of trade with an independent nation.
These are just two examples of conflicting US foreign Policy, and why the US is losing credibility. There are dozens of examples with every Nation. It is catching up to the US, and as another poster stated, the world smells blood in the water. The US has placed itself in a precarious economic position, infighting and political struggles that are undermining its leadership position.
A far as Chinese economy, China is the worlds largest producer of hard assets; Gold, rare earth Minerals, Steel, etc, etc. In the next 5 years, approximately 250 Million Chinese will become Middle class, and their economy will become internally driven and independent of reliance on exports. What frightens the US is this fact, within 10 years China will be able to influence world economic policy, and there is little anyone will be able to do about it. This came about not so much from China’s emergence into modern economic landscape, but as a result of the United States making terrible decisions again and again.
In the last 3000 Years, China has been world super power the last 2700. It lost the last 300 years to internal issues, and power struggles, which are over. China is focused on progress and investment, technologies and improving the living standards of its people, something the US could surely learn from.
lex-hate to tell you, but RED CHINA will NEVER become a world power. At best, they will become a modern day version of the Soviet Union. Communism does not allow for individual thought, which is what is needed to take the step into higher status. For all there economic gains of the last 20 years, all of rural China is as poor today as it was under Mao in the 1960s. The only economic gains Red China has made is because of WESTERN companies that re-located there, mostly in the manufacturing sector. The agriculture sector has improved very little, due mostly to communist co-ops. Sorry ,Alex, but commie governments NEVER will make it to a level that free enterprise does. The gains the Red Chinese have made is because of adopting capitalism. The failures of the US in recent years is because we are adopting communist economic policies, with the failures that always accompany them.
Again, the USNS Impeccable was operating outside of China’s territorial waters, as commonly upheld with ‘freedom of the seas’ conventions, and codified in the UN Convention Law of the Sea (of which China is signatory, and the US has not ratified). The US and internationally recognized territorial waters extend only 12 nautical miles out from a country’s coast line.
China tacitly admits that the Impeccable was not in it’s territorial waters, claiming that the US ship was in it’s Exclusive Economic Zone, and therefore subject to Chinese demands to leave. China enjoys no such right to force a vessel out of EEZ’z, provided that the ship is not engaged in specific economic activity (fishing, whaling, oil exploration, etc).
Therefore, Alex, The USNS Impeccable, by custom, courtesy, and codified convention had every right to be where she was. China has the same right to sail ships 12 nmi from our Hawaiian Islands, even if they don’t routinely sail there. The fact that we are more likely to assert our right does not make us intellectually dishonest.
Also, Iran is a country that is under international (UN) embargo, where Taiwan is not. Therefore, there is a fundamental distinction between selling arms to these countries.
The sandman has already addressed your assertions of impending superpower status to China.
If the Chicoms think they are bad enough to mess with us militarily, Let em try. They havent built a blue water navy yet, have no amphibious capability, and cant even feed or support the PLA logistically. Too many of our statist lovers like Terrible Tom Friedman have never figured out why China has NEVER been a world power and never will be. Unlike Tom the commie lover Friedman, someday the industrialists of China will rise up and demand the political power to go with the financial gains theyve supplied, not the stupid Chicom govts of Jiang Zemin or Hu Jin Tao. It takes FREEDOM to inspire people-not statist or communist governments. Thats also the same reason Islam has never beaten Israel and never will. There individual governments hate each other as much as they do the Jews.
Internationalism, AKA, sending jobs offshore to bring economies up so there is too much to lose in war has worked for a time. However, with 46 million more males in China then females they would have one heck of a numerical advantage if they ever decided to take on a neighbor. When I was in China recently Kim Jung Mentally Ill was acting up on the South Korea border. I was at dinner with a Chinese businessman and I told him I was worried that North Korea could start a war. His response, “Does this scare you?” I said yes, “Then maybe that is our intent.” Our intent? Makes you wonder.
The House Ways and Means Committee will hold a hearing Wednesday at 10 a.m on China’s trade and industrial policies
I’ve heard chatter that China is scared….hahahahaha
Hello Sandman, thank you for reply.
I live in china, own two companies here, total of 71 employees, about half are Chinese, Balance European and US, Canadian. I am a US citizen and moved to China in 2005 after selling off all everything in California. Could not take regulatory burdens, taxes, and idiotic decisions any longer.
The only time i ever see any sign of what people perceive to be “communist”, is if someone is attempting to form groups to disrupt government. Other than this, people are free to do as they please. Friends that come to visit cannot believe the reality versus the perception that exists in China, the modernization, technology and entrepreneurship. They are left speechless when they see what Capitalism unleashed can accomplish.
People are free to start any business they wish, it took me 2 days to get a business license, and i negotiated reduction in Tax rate, as well as land grant ( free ), to build upon. Several of my friends are negotiating with Government to locate their companies here as well, from California and Texas.
People confuse the hysteria of “red China” with reality of the capitalist system china has adopted. Are there things that bug me about china, Sure. Just like any system it has its benefits and drawbacks. It is like any other bureaucracy. But thinking that China is the same country that existed in the 70′s is completely false.
Ive been to robotics companies as advanced as anything in Europe or USA, i know because ive been contracting to SRI and EGG and Dept of energy and Dod prior to moving. These are stand alone Chinese companies with their own patents and technologies. China does not export its tech, it keeps internally. Chinese culture is highly inventive…History proves this out. China was once world super power, it will be again.
Agriculture in China is highly evolved as any nation would need to be to feed over a Billion people, It works. Rural areas are the big concern in China, you are correct in that regard, the next 5 year plan will address cities of 500,000 and up, which in China makes up most rural regions. economic growth was concentrated in large cities, but it is spreading to the rest.
Industrialists in China are communists, party officials are involved in business just like any US senator or congressman. In fact some of the better business people iv’e met are party officials.
When the Chinese have no more need for your company, they will take it away with the stroke of a pen. They are treating you and other western businessmen with great kindness now, the way ranchers pamper their cattle before sending them off to market.
Alex, thank you so much for your thoughtful and informed comments.
I have great respect for the Chinese, communists included. They’ve brought their country a long way. Historically a peaceful nation, they should be given credit for turning the other cheek to old enemies (Japan in particular, but America as well). China is a good friend to the West. Those who know her history and culture would realise we have nothing to fear and everything to gain from a strong and prosperous China.
I’m a conservative myself, but I find the ‘nuke the gooks’ level of discourse on American blogs too depressing to contend with. Your intelligent and enlightened remarks are a breath of fresh air. Most appreciated.
Alex,
You are ‘free’ to start any business because the Chinese government wants your capital. When it is no longer in the Chinese government’s interest to let you keep you business, property, etc, they *will* take it.
I actually applaud China’s growning middle class, as well as its limited forays into a more capitalist-based economy, via the free-enterprise zones. It is from this taste of personal freedom that I hope the Chinese citizens rise up and demand all of their unalienable freedoms.
However, a government so willing to deny some fundamental rights cannot be trusted to leave your business alone. Ask how free you are in China to:
1) Have a second child
Run for office without being a member of the Communist Party
2) Be a member of Falun Gong
3) Attend a non-state approved church
4) Be a Uighur
5) Protest China’s occupation of Tibet
6) Choose your own Dalai Lama (there are two, one chosen by the Chinese government)
7) Search the internet without government oversight
9) Dissent in general
China was a civilized nation before there was such a place as Europe, let alone the US,
and may become a power in the world again, but should take care not to follow the old ways
too closely; War for territorial conquest is no longer a paying proposition, and with every year
that passes, freedom, individuality, and _creativity_ become more important to progress and success.
USA might also consider the way it treats its allies, the way Obama is treating Britain right now is disgraceful and there is a build up of resentment because millions of Brits have had their pensions buggared.
Also let us down over the Falklands. Humiliated our Prime Minister.
Many here are now saying, what special relationship, there isn’t one.
So what is the purpose of such anti British rhetoric, what’s the point of bringing down the worlds biggest oil company, especially as it is actually half American.
We followed you into Iraq, we followed you into Afghanistan and when we look to you for help with the Falklands, you turn your backs.
If there was a war with China would we still back you, considering Obama’s recent behaviour, would you deserve our backing?
If it came to a nuclear war would we put our weapons at your disposal? that’s what you’d expect.
If you treat your allies with such disrespect as America is doing right now to us you might well be facing China on your own.
Do Americans even care about us Brits, a few years ago you put tariffs on steel, totally destroyed our steel industry, thousands out of work, did Americans even notice.
A tiny nation like ours can be destroyed easily by a large nation such as your selves, one sentence from Obama has destroyed the pensions of millions in a recession that was mainly caused by American sub prime mortgages.
You Americans really ought to look at the way you treat your allies.
“You Americans really ought to look at the way you treat your allies.”
Most of us are appalled at the treatment that Obama has dished out to allies.. He has dishonored America in many ways.
Arthur, please believe me when I say we were embarrassed, nationally, and internationally, by obama’s actions. Every single one of ‘em, but particularly in the case of GB. Many Americans still think very highly of our relationship. Please understand, the actions of this administration are not the actions of Americans, just these traitors. They are an embarrassment for us.
However, I do know of many Americans who are scratching there heads, even flat-out hostile to GB and Europe in general, for the way your “leadership” has rolled over in the path of islam. I don’t know how much our traitors have emulated your traitors, but the results are surely going to be the same if we abandon each other over too many issues.
Arthur: Sorry about what has happened over the years because of the useful idiots we have in Washington. A large part of my country still consider you guys our allies and family, so don’t give up on us yet, Ok! We all go way back even though we had that revolution and 1812 thing, that basically was a family squabble. What we need is another Churchill, Reagan, Kitchner, Thatcher, and Washington to lead our countries back from the depths. Courage Conquers.
One doubts that China’s ‘threat offensive’ will get them what they want, although getting something by threatening something has a time honored pedigree. But with the US, despite the puzzling persistence of many people in government (both civilian and military) to continue engaging with the Chicoms, it is unlikely that China will get what it wants, whatever that is. And what is China’s angst all about? It gets our money and buys our technology (or has spies bring it home). In return it sells us often inferior products that are bargain basement cheap and in a consumer society this trumps quality every time.
Do they really believe their rhetoric about wanting to ‘”hurt” the US, as if the Chinese military is some thoroughbred military animal just chomping at the bit to get at us? If so they are they are deeply delusional about their capabilities and deeply delusional about their chances of prevailing against a serious western military power. Sure, they could do human wave assaults if it came to that, but I doubt that the American military will be foolish enough to accommodate them. The US will likely use its vast and deep array of superior military technologically to grind China down. And if the conflict starts as a result of N. Korean aggression the game will not be to push the N. Koreans or the Chinese back across the Yalu River. It will be very different; very different indeed.
Maybe the US military is really playing a version of good cop with the Chinese and trying ever so painfully to get them to understand that their real chances of prevailing in a war with us are slim. Something rational has to be behind the stubborn refusal of the US military to give up on trying to ‘engage’ the Chicom military and convince them that they are not just guaranteed the likelihood that they will lose a war with the US but that they might lose everything and be back where they started after Mao nearly wrecked China.
Has anyone suggested that the Gulf of Mexico oil rig was sabotaged? Until the reason for the well failure is clarified, do not rule it out. Let me say for the record, each oil platform represents the equivalent of an atomic weapon ready for detonation. What would happen if many suicide-prone Iranian mini-sub pilots ended their existence while in contact with a drilling or pumping platform? Have we prepared for that possibility?
We are so vulnerable that we have only two realistic positions*: Capitulate immediately and ingratiate ourselves to those who might see our platforms as strategic targets or explain carefully that evidence implicating any country in the sabotage of these platforms would constitute sufficient reason to expect total destruction of their country and people. Anything in between leaves doubt in the minds of our potential enemies and thus provides great margins for human error in judgment.
Obama’s weakness provides sufficient cause for concern for the future of America, since he has failed to make either of the above options clear to the world, in particular, China, Iran and Russia, though some would claim that he has tried and failed to surrender.
*We have a third option. Close down permanently each and every off-shore drilling rig, ours, Britain’s and Norway’s. Given the risk to us and the world, that is a realistic option, but would have grave consequences for our economic viability.
11 Dan and 20 Ahem are correct to include Russia in the equation. see Golitsyn’s The Perestroika Deception;Gorby/Yeltsin brought Bush I’s opening of military and dual use technology; Clinton ended our ability to fight 2 and 1/2 wars Bush II acted as Gordan Chang reported and Obama is closing off our nuclear missile modernization while China is moving that way and Russia under later half of Yeltsin and Putin already modernized its nukes. Naval vessels by China are next; yes they are still behind us but over time they will match us unless we do a stimulus package for our naval assets and for good measure our military space and missile defense programming and build more F-22.
The peace dividend allowed China and Russia to come into the Western economy; now the leverage is against us, not them.
Great. When the everything finally hits the fan we will be all alone. The Brits do not like us after Sec Clinton shot her mouth off on the Falklands and the only other country in Asia which has the capacity to help us against China, India, now dislikes us intensely because we fund and arm the Pakistanis to send terrorists into their country. I will point out that Pres Bush had excellent relationships with both countries. Another thing the big O has totally wrecked.
When i get elected President in 2012 i will build up our military Second i will send the National Guard to the Borders with Guns. Any Illegal in this country will have to server 8 years in our military if they want to stay here.
I would give Afghanistan and Pakistan 2 weeks to come up with Bin Laden and the Tali ban and tell them if they don,t the gloves come of our Military and will use the full force of it. Then i would tell Iran when we are done there you had better have your nuke power shut off. As far as creating jobs we will need people to build ship for the military and would cut all tax 50% FOR 1 year. this would just be in the First 6 months. The first thing i would sign in the first week would be to make English the language of this Great Country.
Obviously we love you and will vote for you
Hey Mike, how did you know my name, and how did you know my party platform for 2012? Are you a prophet, trying to reveal me and my true intentions before I reveal myself to the world?
But seriously, I am that I am. He who walks amongst us shall be revealed in all his glory. The revelation of political salvation shall come.
The time of the rapture is almost upon us, begotten from a great comet falling from the heavens. A third of the world’s people shall be taken back to the heavens in the blink of an eye. The time to place one’s house in order is upon us. The temple of the New Rome shall be cleansed of the money changers, and put anew.
Repent!
(But seriously, who believes anything I wrote? Go to school, get a job, keep some food, gold, and brass/lead aside, and be prepared for the worst, but hope for the best. Make your own future. Oh, and Commies, especially atheistic ones, as they all are, really suck in the eyes of the savior.)
There is no need to worry about china.We have a president who navigated the chicago streets.Tough,he could make it to the Mans Country gay bath house in the middle of winter. He had a second sense of where he could find some good blow. And he could partner with a convicted terroist who blew up the pentagon.So a 7.5 million chinese army with 40 million in reserve and subs that can pop up right next to our best destroyers and a new supersonic cruise missile that can carry nuclear warheads would be a small puff for our historic president.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcEksc8S9b8
http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/washington/vision.html
Please read this my conservative brethren, Islam, terrorists, Chinese, Iranians, drug cartels, Latin American tyrants–it all makes sense now.
This doesn’t surprise me. If Holder (and the rest of the administration) refuses to see Radical Islam as a threat after endless attacks over the last 17 years (the first World Trade Center bombing, the USS Cole, the Saudi Marine barracks, US Embassy attacks, 9/11, shoe bomber, underwear bomber, Fort Hood, Time Square bomber, Arkansas recruitment center shooting & I’m sure others I’ve already forgotten about), then I have no doubt this administration will continue to ignore the Chinese, even after they say, without hesitation and with utter clarity, they will destroy us. The Big O and his people will make excuses and ignore reality. Even at the point of destruction, I believe, he will try the diplomatic (i.e. coward’s) route. Chamberlain ignored Hitler’s rise to power, what will be the result of Obama’s blindness?
Obama is ushering in a war threat unlike anything America has faced in 70 years. His vapidness, cowardice, always willing to play the chump may get us all killed. This buffoon is more than just a failure….he IS the destruction of America.
60′s marxists, Chicago New party sponsored by ??, ayers, universities, foundations, and soros found The ONE and weakness for the USA is the goal. Bolivian or Mao revolution until Nov and maybe beyond. They waited for years for this chance. What independents and Republicans are strong enough to stand against them? Will America wake up. China is the least of our short term problems, a distraction.
The Chinese government represents what they see as the interests of the Chinese state. They have not, so far at least, been reckless – quite the contrary, they are patient and realize that the machine they run has many moving parts, some not so well lubricated as others. It is large, powerful, and a bit fragile in spots. They will practice the projection of power, at least initially, in those areas where there’s little chance of a forceful response, and they will learn.
Our current leadership sees foreign-policy issues and the US standing in the world as someone else’s problems, their goal is to kick the can down the road as cheaply as possible while draining the defense coffers to pay for their domestic-policy agenda. Any problem can and will be dealt with as minimally as possible on the feckless assumption that nothing truly matters unless it costs votes.
Our ‘brilliant’ boy president is kept from his true isolationist longings only by the foreign entanglements Bush left him.
The Chinese have a very astute approach. They are helping influence elections that bring big spenders into power here in the U.S. They are providing assistance to insurgent groups we are fighting, which is bleeding us dry there as well.
It doesn’t take a genius to realize that we have only a few more years, maybe five, before our nation starts to implode enough that we will have no ability or desire to interfere with an imperialist-minded China.
Our looming national bankruptcy is not at all an accident, and is in no small part being driven by Chinese influence. Kooks worry about the illuminati and the Bildeberg group, because we’re scared sh*tless to face the 800lb gorilla in the room.
I am not sure what history people have been reading, but when have the Chinese ever been a world power? The Mongols perhaps. Chinese history is one of thorough insularity and intense xenophobia. Well, perhaps it is not xenophobia when Western domination such as the Opium Wars is still historically fresh in their minds not to mention their treatment at the hands of the Japanese circa WW II. They will do whatever they need to protect themselves against domination from “barbarians” and any potential offensive actions should be looked at in that light.
Many have already stated the obvious – what thinking people have known for YEARS: the ChiComs are our ENEMY. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if ObaMao gives up Taiwan. As for Admiral Mullen – the sooner he and his clueless SecDef pal Gates are shown the door, the better!
Get ready, America … It’s only a matter of time.
And NO, we don’t need to attack China with boots on the ground. Who would want to or even think to try? “You’ll never kill all of us” – Mao Tse Dung
~(Ä)~
Clinton gave China our military secrets. Bush gave China our manufacturing base. Obama votes present. There is no leadership here, and hasn’t been for a long time.
They keep “their” technology in country? You really mean that they keep the tech they’ve stolen from others. You see, some of us here are familiar with the massive coporate espionage efforts of China. A large amount of the tech you have belonged to someone else first. In fact, until Israel helped a bit with the J10 fighter project even that was outside China’s capabilities.
So Alex, you actually compare Taiwan to Iran? You do understand that causes people to question your credibility and authenticity, don’t you? The Taiwan situation is nothing like the one we face with Iran. Has Taiwan threatened to wipe China off the map with nukes? Didn’t think so. I would call your posts little more than Chinese sponsored propganda.
China rising. America declining. Better get your house in order, America. You might want to start by getting that communist out of the White House
IT COULD BE ALL ABOUT MONEY – FUNDING. The chinese military is just like any other military. They always want more money and war equipment and during peaceful times they have to fight – justify for the money. What better way to get it than to have a potential are future enemy to fight.
MacArthur advised to watch out for China.
(Bill Clinton said China is our friend.///what a buffoon!!)
America should have eradicated Mao and his minions while they were still relatively weak. Now the situation is reversed and America is relatively weak.
Never trust a Communist…they are ungodly scum. Unfortunately America has elected a scion of Communists into the Oval Office.
“Every nation has a right to defend itself and to spend as it sees fit for that purpose”
Really? Nazi Germany had a “right to defend itself”? The former Soviet Union had a “right to defend itself”? This is like saying everyone person – including gangsters and other thugs – has a “right to defend” himself. I would suggest such an unqualified assertion demonstrates a lack of understanding when it comes to the concept “rights”. A dictatorship has NO rights. Totalitarian states have NO rights. ANY nation which *systematically* violates the rights of its citizens cannot claim those self-same rights for itself. (And in fact NO nation – no collective – has rights whatsoever. Rights belong to the individual. A state is merely the agent of such individuals. It possesses no rights unto itself. It acts SOLELY by permission of its constituent individuals.)
The fact is China’s PLA continually analyzes Pearl Harbor and the Pacific War
It has stated repeatedly what it feels were Japan’s mistakes and how it would go about avoiding repeating them WHEN they go to war against us.
That this government has utterly rejected even considering the concept of thinking about these statements, let alone maybe spending a couple of minutes contemplating some sort of response in the advent of ANY sort of military conflict with China should give every person in the US nightmares – not to mention motivating preparations by each of us for the utter ruthless slaughter that they plan to visit upon our people in the advent of war.
If they will do Tianaman Square to their own people, what will they do to ours?
Think upon Obama’s handling of the BP oil spill and how he would handle another Pearl Harbor – maybe one involving nuclear or biological weapons.
Anyone who thinks China wouldn’t be willing to sacrifice millions of its own overabundance of population to get rid of us is insane or on drugs.
I have had the “opportunity” to travel to China about 4 times each year for business. I have listened to the Chinese side of this political battle for years. It would take a comment as large as the article to do this subject the justice it deserves. Much of what has been said is totally wrong and if our military is acting on these indicators they need to look at China, the Chinese people and Chinese history. Having a monster this big in the closet keeps the appropriations flowing.
I say bring it on sooner than later.We can start the war by cutting off all the garbage they send us,thats sold at walmart.I’m sure they’de change thier tune real quick,however if they dont let em invade.They’ll get thier behinds handed to them.Either way the commi in the white house is driving the country into the ditch,so throw china in the mix,why prolong it.
china’s milatry can destroy the USA because of man power and if you havn’t heard the chinese cyber army which has been hacking most of the wests computers for time and if china was to go to war russia would help and don’t say the west will win because they won’t have you seen how much tanks russia has it proberly has enough to put half it’s milatry in america is a country which is scared of both them two if you havn’t heard nato is funding some of america’s milatry GPD read this and you will find out more about what america is doing
http://www.schnews.org.uk/bilderberg/nato.html
Master C – Iran’s 2nd Amendment Rights to develop nukes? Surely you don’t believe Iranians are bound by our United States Constitution, do you? The idiocy of the people like Master C never ceases to amaze me, and the sad reality is that Master C probably voted for Obamalamadingdong in reaction to “hope and change”.
God Save Us!
Paul,
I understand your sentiment, but I believe we must avoid the urge to characterize ‘Master C’ and ‘alex’ as idiots. Their comments serve to remind us that there are people out there who do not wish us well. And they are constantly working and struggling to achieve a level of power that will allow them to seriously harm us if we give them the opportunity. The problem with sites like this one, even as informative as this one, is that they run the risk of being echo chambers. That’s why as irritating as ‘Master C’ and his ilk may be, their comments give us a look into how our adversaries think. We need to evaluate their comments and act accordingly. We must never take our leadership in science, technology, medicine, etc, for granted; the moment we do will be the moment we surely begin to lose it. “A wise man is constantly seeking knowledge; but the moment he believes he has found it, he becomes a fool.”
Our institutions, media, etc are infested with leftists and Marxists whose primary goal is the destruction of America. I agree with one of commenters above, that China is, as of now, the least of our worries. We need to concentrate on the fight at home.
Breeding paranoia and distrust never benefited anyone and only shows a deprived upbringing. But if basing action on insecurity instead of sincere engagement with would be friends is necessary to the process of a nation growing up, it is the misfortune of the citizens of that nation then.
But remember that the rest of the world will have closed ranks while ‘Superpower Nation’ arms itself to the teeth to militant agendas, oppresses it’s own citizens with idiot laws and unaccountable Capitalists sequestering wealth in third world tax-havens, makes enemies with it’s immediate neighbours, obsesses with Zionist cult theology, cuts of trade via useless sanctions, wages meaningless and unwinnable wars and angers local populations, and makes enemies of allies by imposing military bases and missile shields on continents 1000s of miles away.
It’s hard to be friends with nations like that, though the rest of the world and China can certainly try to contain these ills to their sources. Other than that US and Israel are absolutely the most well loved nations in the world.
The PRC Chinese do not share Western moral norms. There is no Judeo-Greek basis for their intellectual traditions. We cannot use Western framework to interpret their actions.
For example, they never discovered Logic, so things we take for granted, such as Proof by Contradiction, Consistency, or Logical Rigor, mean nothing to them. Other things, like Contract Law, are not deeply embedded in their psyches and culture.
So, they do not understand where the West is coming from, either.
The post by “Alex” is typical of PRC Internet Censors. You can tell it is Chinese because he is not aware of Soviet and Cuban military activities just 12 miles off US shores. Russian Naval and Air assets routinely patrol within 12 miles of US coastlines.
China should be greatfull for the United States. They are in existence because of the USA. The USA protected them from a Soviet nuclear attack in the 1960′s. Today every American that shops at a Target or Walmart is helping build the future Chinese military with their purchases. How would China react if we closed every business factory in their free eneterprise zones and moved them somewhere else?
“Every nation has a right to defend itself and to spend as it sees fit for that purpose, …”
I want to know why no one made this point in relation to the Israeli blockade action?
There’s one small point that noone hear seems to consider: When was the last time the Chinese miliary went to war? The United States has been engaged in heavy military action for almost a decade now. We have hundreds of thousands of experienced troops, battle plans and strategies generated ON THE BATTLE FIELD IN A PRESENT DAY SCENARIO. The Chinese can high-step and stab at dummies all day long but that doesn’t make them good soldiers. Also, I guaruntee you that if the Chinese were to engage in hostile actions against our forces we would drop the middle east like a rock to defend ourselves, which would give us quite a nice out ;-D
Sorry i meant to say ‘here’ instead of ‘hear’. Gimmie a break, I barely made it past 2nd grade.
It seems we have something to trade: North Korea for Taiwan. China has been waging economic war for sometime we should engage them in that arena and not get into a military pissing match. Its important we engage Russia as a continental rival to China, Bismarck kept France and Russia apart as the keystone of his foreign policy and it worked until the Kaiser let the Reinsurance Treaty lapse and by the 20th century it all hit the fan.
Why wait 10 years,let the nuke’s fly now
We will ALL have to grab a rifle and stand a post…..
As middle-aged, out of shape, and nearsighted as I am, I’m still a pretty good shot.
I doubt it will come to that, though, as I think the next battle space is described here:
h++p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberwarfare
I know this might be a stretch but I have always told my wife that there is a reason why there are so many Chinese resturants, they have no Navy to invade the US but I am sure that not every Chinese over here in the US is pro-American. I am thinking sleeper cells that with one communication would destroy power grids etc. Just a thought I might just be too paranoid.
I think the chinese would be down right stupid to start a war with the US. What they are saying is what I believed they always felt about us. Here is how one American thinks of them. Start your war with your junk weapons, they are no beter than the crap you have been selling us. We have been training our military for ten years with real combat, so the best thing is for chinese to keep telling America what it thinks of us. Keep talking, talk to every American news organization, and really tell us how much you hate us. Tell us how you want to kill us, and dominate the world, as you are our superiors. I hope more chinese speak out, and that more Americans listen, and understand that these people are not our friends, but enemies. Remember the thrashing your big lumbering incompetent army got from the North Vietnamese. They were so good because they had been up against the best in the world for years. Imagine now my chinese enemy how much worse it will be when you face a true power that with the willingness, will destroy you enough so that like a crippled old man, you will never walk upright again.
The post by “Alex” is typical of PRC Internet Censors. You can tell it is Chinese.
FINALLY! Some body said it…there has been some very good post but come on…Austin is the only one besides me that see through “ALEX” and “MASTER C”
Nice work from the PRC Internet Censors.
One word for you and Austin. Paranoia?
Haha! We get you, Amelika! We invade USA!
We kill you, hahaha! We gone git you, white boy!
N’ you sistah too!
Carifolnia is OURS!
We have ourselves to thank for it! We more or less made them what they are today!
Thanks Nixon, Kissenger, and Wal-Mart even!
You did us a real big favor! You sent all our jobs to China simultaneaously weakening the U.S. while strengthening them by brain draining the U.S. exporting our technologies along with our labor and industrial base!
You thought they would become integrated and co-dependent. Turns out that with a communist government, they are not going along with your program.
See how we get paid back for helping them against Japan and Nazi Germany as well!
We already got to fight them in Korea and Vietnam, and that turned out real bad. One would have thought we’d learned from that, but no, we’ve sent them even more business since then to build them up further.
Now, my kids may have to fight and die someday against the United State’s huge Frankenstein monster!
Such fabulous news! (sarc)
We must maintain a strong nuclear presence to deter them. Subs and strong carrier forces will keep them from our coasts. Our common armed citizenry would prevail in a land invasion from them.
These kinds of statements are part of China’s psychological warfare campaign against US policy towards Taiwan. It’s highly unlikely that China and the US will find themselves in a ‘hand-to-hand’ fight in the next ten years and the PRC knows this. Rather, the PLA/CCP is hoping to influence US politicians (and public) like senator Feinstein who recently called US arms sales to Taiwan a “substantial irritant” in Sino-US relations. I wonder if she would call the 1,500 missiles that China points at Taiwan as an “irritant” as well?
I agree with your article to a certain degree. China is a threat however the real issue is what part of China is the threat. There is view point within the US military as well as its close allies and neighbours of China, that Chinas military acts on its own accord and not that of the Civilian leadership, in essence they now believe that the Civilian Chinese government does not hold any real control or power over the military and the actions/descions it takes.
I understand your view point that the US is turning a blind eye to the actions and positions that the Chinese military are taking, that’s justified, however I would also strongly urge you to consider for a minute that maybe the US is quite brilliant in its strategy of allowing Chinas military to make itself look like a threat while at the same the US showing itself like a nation that wishes to foster peace and prosperity for all. This possible strategy of the US seems to have worked.
Not too long ago Chinas neighbours seen it as an acceptable counterweight to the US sphere of power in the region, and considered it a country that they would be able to develop and foster close relations with. That has all changed now….. Chinas neighbours such as Japan, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore now see it a threat and have begun boosting their own militaries and have state publicly the reason for doing so is to address the threat that they see from Chinas military and its civilian governments apparent inability to control or exert any sort of influence over it.
So while it can be said that the US has refused to comprehend China, maybe due to what has transpired in the past few weeks the US has comprehended and completely out manoeuvred China much to its apparent surprise and shock as has been the case last week with Hilary Clintons visit and the US nod to Vietnam and other Asian countries that the US has their back and support.
China was completely caught unaware that the US was layout strategies and foundations with its neighbours without them even knowing.
In reality the US just took Chinas play book and turned it around and used it against them without them even comprehending it.
If this is the case and seems to be by the facts on the ground there is a strong possibility that the Americans might be smarter than they look.
you americans so get it your so completly full of yourself if america was to go to war with china there are many reasons for why you won’t win becuase
1.Manpower
2.if u havn’t heard china is building up it’s cyber army(population has more computers then the usa and has used it serveral times on the usa i saw on a website that china may have found out one of americans fighter plan up f-15 or something along that and america does not have the manpower to challenge china in a cyber war and with a good cyber army they can change sattilite info and such so america won’t be getting the info they want.
3. china has anti satellite missles
4. a few years back a Song class submarine got behind a american carrier battlegroup and was in torpedo and missle range and america was dumbstruck
5.china has way more allies please don’t say nato will help america becuase only 2-3 countries will even help america and if u havn’t heard a few countries are backing down to russia chinas biggest ally and a old communist pal and america buys it’s oil from russia once russia is gone america will be looking across the globe and invade other countries also if you havn’t known people say that america only invaded iraq for oil which is partly true.
and no america isn’t a all great country if it was would be able to pay it’s debts such and such
You guys are morons and red necks….get real….
85 yourself @American Junk.