An experienced designer of virtual worlds spews forth whatever random drivel comes to mind.

April 12, 2005

Please, Not the Permadeath Debate Again

Filed under: Game Design, General — Damion @ 10:16 am

Permadeath is the whackamole idea of the MMO industry. It keeps popping up, and the people who argue against it keep knocking it back down. I’ll never fully understand why. Some people I know and respect greatly are huge fans of it. I don’t get it.

The most frequently cited reason against permadeath is, of course, player investment, which put succinctly says, “We never want to give players a reason to stop paying us $10 bucks a month.” Any time a catastrophic occurrance happens in the game, such as you losing your house to a database glitch or the server crashes right after you get the Scepter of Great Bumpfoozlage, there is an opportunity for you to say ‘the hell with this’ and move on. Due to the intricate coding complexities and the… unique nature of sharing a space with other players, it’s hard enough to prevent these catastrophic events from occurring. Why on earth would we want to give you a choice as to whether or not to start a new character, or cancel your account altogether?

The more insidious reason is that your death penalty shapes your grind. The more harsh your death penalties are, the less likely that your player base will take risks and interesting chances. When this happens, players will do the safest, most predictable thing possible, to protect themselves against unexpected happenings like PKers, lag spikes and idiots leading a train of 20 dragons. And just like that, your game is considered grindalicious, as your players bore themselves to death.

Now then, it’s true that some text MUDs and even commercial MMOs have permadeath. One can’t help wonder what the benefit is. One of the supposed advantages is that ‘old characters get recycled eventually’. Why, exactly, is this a benefit? Poppinfresh from the aforementioned Corpnews thread on the subject points out the other results from these MUDs.

It was bad, because people would use it as a means to be drama queens, and for people who got hacked (read: gave their passwords to someone) and then lost their characters.

The Blaze of Glory is a common phenomenon in MUDs with permadeath - it’s the disgruntled player’s way of saying ’screw you guys, I’m going home’. But… what if they changed their mind? I know that I was pretty disgruntled when I quit SWG, and I had no intention of ever coming back when I hit the account cancel button. But lately, I’ve been intrigued with their combat revamp. Still, there’s no way I’d choose to come back if my grandmaster wookie armorsmith wasn’t there.

Will we ever see permadeath in a modern, large-scale MMO. I doubt it. I can’t imagine how hard it would be for a designer to convince the people who count the beans and the people who manage CS that it’s good for the game.

• • •

33 Comments »

  1. The more harsh your death penalties are, the less likely that your player base will take risks and interesting chances.

    This is true. But it is also true that the less harsh your death penalties are, the less likely that risks and interesting chances are meaningful to your players. After all, if you cannot fail, can you really succeed?

    It’s like in WoW, when you see a Level 60, you aren’t that impressed. Given enough time, I too will be a Level 60. In contrast, if you see a Level 60 Diablo2 Hardcore character, that’s an impressive achievement, all the more impressive for its fragility.

    But then again, I used to be one of those who dismissed games without permadeath. Now after trying WoW, I don’t think I’d play with permadeath. Player Combat in WoW (and in most leveled games) is just not surprising enough. If the enemy character is X levels above me, he will kill me. If he’s Y levels below me, I will kill him. There’s only a relatively narrow band where the outcome to combat is surprising.

    However, it might be interesting to have a very limited form of permadeath. For example, if there was one dragon in the world that inflicted permadeath on those it killed. A true challenge for the best of the best. Or maybe a very specific challenge to duel another player could be issued, a duel to the death.

    Comment by GSH — April 12, 2005 @ 12:29 pm
  2. What if an MMO cribbed the Diablo 2 hardcore mode system? Unlock the mode when you get to level n, clearly differentiate the hardcore characters from the other characters. I don’t play MMO’s myself, but I’ve got to figure that once a player gets to level n they’re liable to quit anyhow, so giving them a hardcore mode for additional props might be the challenge some of them are looking for.

    Comment by Jamie Fristrom — April 12, 2005 @ 12:46 pm
  3. Given the level of outrage provoked by merely suggesting that player items should wear out and eventually break in UO, I would say permadeath is a feature that only the hardest of hardcore players will ever embrace. Ergo it will never be a major part of a commercial MMO.

    Comment by Tim Keating — April 12, 2005 @ 1:14 pm
  4. Losing a large investment of time sucks in any genre of game. I don’t see how it can work unless you can somehow change permadeath from an outright loss to a change of state that allows you to continue in some altered decision space.

    Comment by Rich — April 12, 2005 @ 1:19 pm
  5. Before working for SOE, I was kicking around an idea for a game that did feature permadeath as core design element. That is, the rest of the game wouldn’t work right without it. Not even that I started with a blank-page and thought, “This game will have permadeath…how can I make that work?” even. Instead it came about naturally in the course of hashing out all the myriad other details. There emerged a hole in the design, and it was shaped just like permadeath. So permadeath “fit” that design. It made sense there, and the rest of the game didn’t make a lot of sense without it.

    I also added it in Ackadia, but again it emerged as a necessary element to fit the rest of the design - it wasn’t tacked-in just for the sake of doing it. The rest of the design necessitated it.

    But then, neither of these designs were t the typical sort of grab-a-character-n-level-grind-to-60 sorts of games.

    I think just adding permadeath to an existing MMO is a bad idea, but I don’t dismiss the idea of permadeath where it’s appropriate either.

    Comment by Jeff Freeman — April 12, 2005 @ 1:44 pm
  6. What if an MMO cribbed the Diablo 2 hardcore mode system? Unlock the mode when you get to level n, clearly differentiate the hardcore characters from the other characters. I don’t play MMO’s myself, but I’ve got to figure that once a player gets to level n they’re liable to quit anyhow, so giving them a hardcore mode for additional props might be the challenge some of them are looking for.

    One of the huge problems with the MMO industry now is that we still think in terms of players that never quit, and we aspire towards those goals (since that’s how the gravy train keeps rolling in). If players hit level 60 and quit, MMOs aren’t profitable enough to be worth their inherent risks. Those making MMOs strive for a subscription length of 6-9 months. Unfortunately (and there’s another long post here), this number has been going down as more competition comes on the market and the playerbase gets more sophisticated about their MMOs.

    That being said, our design focus should be on how to lengthen subscriptions, not how to make a better blaze of glory for when you finally decide it’s time. My 2c.

    Comment by Damion Schubert — April 12, 2005 @ 1:55 pm
  7. Can anyone come up with an example where losing weeks of progress is fun? I can’t see how permadeath would work unless you only lose a small amount of progress and regaining it is fun. Maybe death could lead to a new type of character that starts off with the equivalent power of the previous one, but is configured completely differently (like dead Jedi).

    Comment by Rich — April 12, 2005 @ 4:07 pm
  8. I love the light “death” penalty in World of Warcraft (particularly in Un’goro Crater, where a giant dinosaur can come out of nowhere and bite you in half before you know what’s happening). I love being able to jump off the top of a waterfall, or even a “really tall tree stump” and see what happens. (After enough tries, I learned how to jump off the Loch Modan dam and make it down to Wetlands alive.)

    That said… after the first few months of Diablo 2, I started playing in its hardcore mode. I then played the game for over 3 years, playing a Sorceress every time, and treating every character I created as a Hardcore character (after one death I started a new character, even if the old one wasn’t technically “hardcore”).

    If I had continued to play SWG, and ever gotten a Jedi slot, I’m sure I would have had a blast trying to keep a baby Jedi alive for more than a week.

    I think it comes down to this: An MMORPG without permadeath basically guarantees advancement for time. Having the most-uber-character-ever just means you have invested the required amount of time to become uber. The death penalty might involve minor setbacks, but any moderately-skilled player will overcome those and keep advancing, as long as they keep putting in the time.

    Permadeath on the other hand, really separates the men from the boys. Merely “putting in the time” is not enough–you must exercise actual skill and judgement to *survive every single fight*. One stupid pull and all your hard work is gone. Getting to 50 alive shows not only that you put in your time, but that you have achieved supreme mastery of the game mechanics.

    I think in order for Permadeath to work in an MMORPG, the design must be based on player skill. It must be very forgiving of lag (to avoid unavoidable death) and it’s preferable if it doesn’t have the “No Man’s Land” problem, since most people will be relatively low level most of the time. You need characters of all levels to be able to group and so on.

    Comment by moo — April 12, 2005 @ 4:11 pm
  9. Rich, your comment sounds a lot like an idea I had for a permadeath game. :P Basically, players would be some sort of entity from the spirit world that chooses a physical body to manifest itself in. If you die, you go back to the spirit world, where you can then create a new character (body) and resume. Some of your abilities would carry over, with temporary penalties ala rez-sickness. Equipment and such would be gone, unless you go back for your corpse. But ability would matter more than gear, so it would be easy to ignore your gear.

    The most interesting thing about this game idea (from my point of view) would be that, every time you die, you could re-invent your in-game persona. You could change genders and appearance more or less at will (and perhaps even character name?). The default would be the same appearance as you had before, so it would be easy to maintain continuity. But for players whose “mental image” of their character was changing, this would give them a way to propagate the changes (no matter how drastic) into the game world.

    Comment by moo — April 12, 2005 @ 4:19 pm
  10. I’ve played a mud that have permadeath (PD). It was a strictly enforced roleplaying mud and I think the PD worked quite well. However I don’t think it works in current MMORPGs due to the way they are designed. In current MMORPGs you have to grind for a long time to get anywhere at all. In this mud, you could be ok after a couple of days and after a week played you were pretty good. I guess the problem is that the players that play MMORPGs on the whole seem more like Diablo players than roleplayers. They would grind through this content way too fast. I can tell you though, the combat I had in this mud got my adrenalin pumping far more than any battle in any MMORPG. Todays breed of MMORPG seems far more like a single player game, that you can reload.

    What most of you seem to be suggesting is something like EQ. If you die, you come back in an altered state, but you haven’t lost all your work. To me it seems worse to lose three days off a month old character than it does to just lose the character. At least then I can try something new. Perhaps something like Guild Wars would work with PD. If it only takes you a couple of days to get to the max level, you won’t mind so much if you lose them, you can just roll something else.

    Comment by Michael — April 12, 2005 @ 5:10 pm
  11. > Can anyone come up with an example where losing weeks of progress is fun?

    It isn’t necessary that players accumulate progress on their characters (nor much anyway).

    In the design I mentioned previously, the players were essentially gambling: risking what little progress they’d accumulated on an individual character in order to obtain a permanent boon that they’d keep forever, attached to an estate.

    You didn’t level-up a character in order to obtain a high-level character, but rather risked some minor amount of advancement on a low-level character in order to unlock higher-level character slots - by leveling-up your estate.

    There were some other aspects to it that just didn’t make a lot of sense if characters respawned instead of dying, but that was pretty much the core of the risk-reward element.

    Comment by Jeff Freeman — April 12, 2005 @ 5:15 pm
  12. Given the level of outrage provoked by merely suggesting that player items should wear out and eventually break in UO, I would say permadeath is a feature that only the hardest of hardcore players will ever embrace.

    Huh? UO abandoned item degradation? Sheesh.

    Oh yes, the topic.
    Permadeath could be interesting with a short enough advancement curve, and/or the ability to pass on, err, abilities to offspring. For the latter, I’m thinking that the curve would have to be pretty soft at the upper levels, like very little difference between (for example) a level 50 and a level 80, so that advacement becomes unnesesary but possible.

    - Ray, throwing out random stupid ideas since forever

    Comment by Ray — April 12, 2005 @ 6:38 pm
  13. One key problem for permadeath is that it can create a culture where characters are considered ‘disposable’. When characters are considered disposable, it’s very easy to walk away from them. Players may like this, but it’s bad business for those of us trying to run these things.

    If your game design had alternate systems to replace characters in maintaining retention, it could work. The game would pretty much have to be designed around the concept, I would think, and I’ve always considered the whole ‘if you die, your offspring gets your skills’ as wonky and hardcore. Apparently I’m alone, since the idea keeps popping up.

    I think it comes down to this: An MMORPG without permadeath basically guarantees advancement for time. Having the most-uber-character-ever just means you have invested the required amount of time to become uber.

    In these instances (such as in WoW), alternate measuring sticks are necessary to compare characters to each other. In WoW, that measuring stick is gear.

    I think in order for Permadeath to work in an MMORPG, the design must be based on player skill.

    The problem with Player Skill is that most players lack it.

    Comment by Damion Schubert — April 12, 2005 @ 6:46 pm
  14. 1) Wonky? Explain!
    2) Hardcore - only if your design dictates it. Again, make the experience/skill curve really shallow at the upper end and if people are only losing numbers (level 80->65 or 100%->97%, for example) and not effectiveness, they won’t care as much.
    3) I think that the offspring solution solves the disposable character problem pretty neatly. Having a common surname across all your characters on a shard and making it hard/rare to die the final death means that your characters are important, but only minor gods instead of all-power demi-gods. Or maybe I’m just a fan of it because I’m the 4th of my name in real life, heh.

    Comment by Ray — April 12, 2005 @ 8:12 pm
  15. The problem with Player Skill is that most players lack it.

    Then maybe you need to find a way to segregate players based on skill level. A classic example is the Swiss tournament system for chess or Magic: the Gathering. In each round, you play people with the same record up to that point. Thus people with the same skill level tend to be grouped together, and every game is interesting and skill-testing for each player.

    Comment by GSH — April 12, 2005 @ 10:28 pm
  16. Shadowbane has permadeath, of a sort. It is guild-based instead of player-based, but for a lot of people that amounts to the same thing. We can all see how that’s turned out.

    Comment by Laiq — April 13, 2005 @ 1:39 am
  17. Shadowbane’s form of “player death” you describe is much worse than anything currently out there. Once your guild has been scourged from the face of the server, the temptation to quit is almost undeniable. But you certainly can’t beat the sense of urgency and ownership its physics instill.

    Permanent player death can’t be successful in an MMO, ever. Its a simple weighing and understanding of the mechanics involved. You have two real entities in MMOs. The Devs and the Players. The Devs build and run the [World], and the Players give the Devs one of their two precious resources to do it with, that being [Money]. Players give Devs [Money] and Devs give the Players the [World]. That is the initial exchange that goes down.

    The second lateral exchange that happens is Players giving Devs the second of their two resources, [Time]. [Time] invested in a game, spent within the [World] is the currency via which Players purchase [Achievement], the second resource offered by the Devs. In nearly every single MMO and single player model, the amount of [Time] the Player can exchange for [Achievement] is limitless. At least until endgame or artificial soft-cap hits. When the limit *is* hit, the game stops and is won or lost. Permanent Player Death in an MMO halts this second exchange and actually nullifies any previous exchanges of [Time] for [Achievement].

    Unless you can convince a publisher that the idea of a disposable MMO is a good one…

    Comment by GreyPawn — April 13, 2005 @ 5:35 am
  18. If I’m not mistaken, Gemstone 4 gave up permadeath a while back, instituting various degrees of exp penalties depending on the circumstances (the biggest being a scenario where you’d have permadied before).

    Dragonrealms still has it. I’m fond of it, but that’s because it’s a fairly base part of the game design and not something tacked on. I can see both sides of the argument, though.

    Comment by Tortolia — April 13, 2005 @ 6:26 am
  19. Permanent player death can’t be successful in an MMO, ever.

    Statements like this usually come back to haunt the person who uttered them.

    I don’t think perma-death will be around in any prominent MMO until characters are more diverse and flexible. In other words, just as soon as your character can be crippled, gain/lose weight, go blind/deaf, age, get sick, need to eat, etc. Single player games are toying with this aspect with varying degrees of success. Take games like Black and White, GTA San Andreas, Sims, etc., where your character grows, learns, ages based on the environment and experiences you put them through. Eventually, we may see this kind of character enter into MMOs and then it may be more realistic, entertaining, and yes, financially feasible for a character to die… permanently.

    For the record, I’ve always been for perma-death but then, when it comes to MMOs, I always side with the more realistic than the safe XP hugging cowards who typically populate these online worlds.

    Comment by Paolo — April 13, 2005 @ 9:08 am
  20. If your game design had alternate systems to replace characters in maintaining retention, it could work.

    *tap* *tap* Is this thing on? Yeah, don’t store the players progress on the characters.

    The game would pretty much have to be designed around the concept, I would think, and I’ve always considered the whole ‘if you die, your offspring gets your skills’ as wonky and hardcore.

    It is wonky and hardcore, because it’s still trying to store the players’ progress on characters.

    Comment by Jeff Freeman — April 13, 2005 @ 9:14 am
  21. Uhhh, dunno about you folks but I had a glorious career in pre-”designers realized what assholes we are” days of UO as a PK. Killed people, alot, stole keys, robbed houses ect. In my humble experience if you kill a person 40 times in a week, they hang out somewhere else and keep playing. If you manage to get their key and rune and strip their house bare they quit. (You then camp the decaying house and plant your 40th cottage 4tw!) House robbery is essentially perma death in UO. Or at least it was. The illusion of progress combined with social relationships with other players keeps people in games. Perma death strips people of even the illusion that what they are doing has a purpose.

    So they quit. You all get fired and spend the next six months trying to get Themis’ HR to take you calls.

    Sounds like a plan to me!

    Comment by Nicademus — April 13, 2005 @ 9:26 am
  22. Then maybe you need to find a way to segregate players based on skill level. A classic example is the Swiss tournament system for chess or Magic: the Gathering.

    You pretty much have to do this for skill-based gameplay to work. This doesn’t change the fact that, in a skill-based game with permadeath, the players who lack skill will be the ones who face the penalty.

    *tap* *tap* Is this thing on? Yeah, don’t store the players progress on the characters.

    Yep, your ideas were exactly what I were alluding to. One interesting paradigm is, for example, Magic the Gathering Online, where your cards convey quite a different sense of persistence than your avatar. If your avatar were to be stripped from you in that game, you likely wouldn’t care.

    Comment by Damion Schubert — April 13, 2005 @ 9:31 am
  23. I can’t believe I’m jumping in on this one…

    One of the major problems I see with permadeath in MMOGs is connection stability. Until we have high speed internet connections that don’t crash (as my did last night, while I was playing WoW), and can guarantee our players that our servers won’t crash (as WoW’s and nearly every other MMOG’s servers have been known to do, at one point or another), I think permadeath is a bad idea. I’m all for having a hardcore combat system in which player skill matters more than character skill or gear. But if I could be permanently dead through no fault of my own, because either my ISP dropped my connection or because your server crashed, I wouldn’t be a happy player.

    Comment by Samantha LeCraft — April 13, 2005 @ 11:39 am
  24. I think permadeath would work in MMO if it was treated as the ultimate (but optional) challenge. Like maybe an instanced solo mission where death is permanent. Something you can enjoy 99% of the game and not have to deal with it. For example, you get a special tag or item that shows everyone you risked it all and came out on top. It would probably only be used by those dedicated enough that they will reroll and those who are getting bored, and this special event might give them a reason to play for a bit longer.

    If not permadeath, what about permainjury? Maybe some melee type loses and arm and the character still has them, but can’t really fight with them any more. They keep their maxed-out fighter and turn him into a blacksmith and go ahead and start a new fighter character if they want. There’s a big difference between a character being wiped and just not being able to do what you used to do.

    Comment by Eric — April 13, 2005 @ 4:36 pm
  25. “In these instances (such as in WoW), alternate measuring sticks are necessary to compare characters to each other. In WoW, that measuring stick is gear.”

    Barring Molten Core, there is no skill involved in getting any gear WoW. All it takes, it mind numbingly boring 4 hour runs through the instances.

    Comment by Michael — April 14, 2005 @ 4:32 pm
  26. I should add a P.S. here. I mentioned that certain single player games were toying with character development via AI and dynamic modifications but I should also mention the fun that has always been had with dying in a game like the Unreal Tournament series. Yes, I know it’s as far a stone throw from an MMO as one can get but as far as in game deaths go, UT is the only game I can think of that made dying gloriously, hysterically, fun.

    Which makes me suddenly realize that perhaps the way to make permadeath OK is to treat it the way the Vikings did. Seek a specific death. Build your character up with death in mind, but seek a glorious death that will earn you a place in Valhalla, rather than the tripping down the church stairs and knocking your noggin on a wayward clog. There’s no glory in a clog-to-the-head death.

    Comment by Paolo — April 14, 2005 @ 8:57 pm
  27. Perma-death is rediculous in an MMO if you mean literally, permanent death of a character. Now what I think would be an excellent idea, is two different worlds.

    One for the living where you can advance your character, get items, do other things the MMO would allow.
    One for the dead, advancement of your character is possible through different means, but you cannot gain access to living objects, and your required to complete a certain task or spend a duration of time before oyu can return to the living.

    In the living realm, you collect gear, gain reputation or something, complete quests and socialize. When you die, your body drop all of it’s items on your corpse, and you become a ghost. In the dead world, you can scale mountains, breathe underwater, see dead spirits and advance your character for when you return to the living.

    I think someone could work on it a little better than me, but that’s just a quick idea.

    Comment by Jonathon Orsi — April 17, 2005 @ 5:46 pm
  28. >>

    I wish this could be explained more, as this is quite rare even in other multiplayer FPS. Nobody cheers when he gets sniped in battlefield 1942…

    Was it because the game rewarded deaths with a cool animation + comment? I remember Quake had something like this. “Hitman15535 ate Roxors’ pineapple” (grenade = pineapple)

    One thing that might be interesting to try is not penalizing death at all. Just porting the dead player to a respawn zone and recording his death in some sorta statistic. Achievers are crazy about stats, so they will go nuts trying to make a character with zero deaths. People who don’t want to achieve won’t have to, since the stats will have no in-game effect.

    This idea is born out of a GTA anecdote. Even though nothing happens to my character when he dies (he loses nothing), I still reload the game eevery time I fail a mission or die. Both deaths and mission failures are recorded, but neither has any in-game effect. Thoughts? (By the way, the viking thingy looks super-cool. Honor and such. The only thing cooler than Ninjas is Pirates. And the only thing cooler than Pirates is Vikings.

    Comment by Capt_Poco — July 10, 2005 @ 9:33 pm
  29. Well,

    In “Trials of Ascension” there will be permadeath. You will, however, have a good number of life counters. It is kind of a compromise to get the best of both systems. Eventually your character will die, and it will die faster if you are stupid. Or take bigger risks. But it will last a good while anyway, while guaranteeing thrilling game experiences throughout the character’s life.

    Initially there was talk about 100 counters, but that number may vary based on testing. Anyway, it’s enough to cover some lag related deaths and alike.

    Comment by Ilkka Kane — December 14, 2005 @ 1:46 pm
  30. The problem with permadeath is simple: Its not a problem if people look at it a different way. For example, in ToA (Trials of Ascension), you can die permanently but in order for that to happen, you have to die 100 times. So in effect you have a ‘permadeath death counter’. This will round out the likelyhood that people will die now and then from bugs and idiots.

    Comment by Mark — February 26, 2006 @ 7:18 pm
  31. Best way to do it is to have permadeath and non-permadeath servers. There are enough people out there that want permadeath that most games could support at least 1 permadeath server. Look at how many people play diablo 2 hardcore, there is a market for it.

    As for me, mainly I want permadeath because it would make the game more fun. Sounds crazy, but on a non-permadeath game, you have to kill stuff for like 2,000 hours real time to become ‘powerful’. On a permadeath game, it would be more like a few hours of killing WITHOUT DYING than 1000s of hours of killing with many deaths. I don’t think dying in a permadeath game would make me want to quit, because it would just be a few hours of play to become powerful again, rather than 1000.

    Mainly, the game would be about STAYING ALIVE rather than killing as much stuff as possible which would make it a lot more interesting.

    Most people disagree and thats ok. A game that was all permadeath wouldn’t get very bing. But theres enough of us out there to support one full-on, no compromise permadeath server per game.

    The 100 lives thing I would hate. On a game like that, you acutally would survive for a few hundred hours of playing AND THEN DIE, and that would be the end of you. Way too frustrating. Lots of people will quit that game as soon as they get to their first real death, because they will be losing such a powerful character. On a die-once-and-your-dead game though, you probably wouldn’t be losing anyone too powerful. It wouldn’t bother me that much to die, especially because it would be a lot more fun to play, so i wouldn’t feel like “all that work is gone!”. It would not feel like work.

    Comment by Lungs — November 14, 2006 @ 9:11 pm
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  33. DDO has an active permadeath community. However, let’s not pretend it’s for the average player. Most of you speak of your characters in terms of “work” and “time investment”. Hah! And you pay for that crap? In permadeath play, players realize a character is simply a vessel for entertainment and the best value you can get is choosing challenging adventures where the consequences make your heart race and your body sweat. Only in that environment will one understand the value of PD play. Frankly, most players are the peasants who rather toil the fields of grind with little risk and hollow reward. Few are true adventurers.

    Comment by parvo — March 8, 2011 @ 1:18 pm

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