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 Post subject: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:30 am 
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Nomarch
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I'm not going to argue belief systems in the SBOE thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20906 So I'll start this one.

I will accept, as a basis for argument, the wiki entry on the subject http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism since some common ground has to be staked out in advance.

I find this definition too confining, but it's workable.
Quote:
Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. Strong atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.
Atheism is itself not a belief system. It is linked to Skepticism, in that
Quote:
Skepticism is an approach to accepting, rejecting, or suspending judgment on new information that requires the new information to be well supported by evidence.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

This is a system of 'suspension' of belief. A conscious approach to new information in a manner that picks the information apart and finds hidden flaws before the information is accepted or discarded.

Atheism should not be confused with any of the various forms of theism, which are belief systems (a good many of them don't even qualify as 'systems' since they are more a hodgepodge of various superstitions lumped together, but I'm trying to be generous) which require a certain amount of faith and belief in the unobservable or indefinable.

Atheism by it's very nature is the opposite of this, given it's skeptical roots.

There is a two hour program that the BBC aired, titled "A Rough History of Disbelief" presented by Jonathan Ross. He observed, and I agree with him, that he was reluctant to refer to himself as an atheist because he (in essence) didn't see the need to define himself by what he didn't believe in, or scarcely thought about.

The youtube versions of the documentary are broken into ten minute segments.


The Google versions of the film are longer, but apparently can't be embedded.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 805018608#

So while I have accepted the label 'atheist', I do so simply to illustrate a fact. This fact is that we don't all agree on the importance of faith, of having faith. Of belief of any kind. And it becomes imperative that those of us who question the rampant religiosity of today's political climate stand up and object to it.

-RAnthony

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"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." --George Orwell

"I've endeavored to follow the path the experience suggested, to see where it leads." --Edgar Mitchell


Last edited by RAnthony on Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:39 am 
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To me, when one claims to know, for sure, without a doubt, that there is no god, it's on par with those who claim to know, for sure, without a doubt, that there is a god.

Both believe in absolutes.

Yes, there is a god.
No, there isn't.

Since you cannot be absolutely sure, it's a belief.

A more honest approach to the whole thing is, "I don't know for sure because it's outside of human understanding right now."

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:34 am 
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Kath wrote:
To me, when one claims to know, for sure, without a doubt, that there is no god, it's on par with those who claim to know, for sure, without a doubt, that there is a god.

Both believe in absolutes.

Yes, there is a god.
No, there isn't.

Since you cannot be absolutely sure, it's a belief.

A more honest approach to the whole thing is, "I don't know for sure because it's outside of human understanding right now."


I'll simply offer this as a counter argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
Quote:
If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

I don't have to prove that god or the teapot don't exist in order to not have to believe in them. This is, of course, aside from the fact that proving the nonexistence of something is a virtual impossibility.

The more 'soft' atheists will tell you that the non-existence or existence of god is just as irrelevant as the non-existence or existence of the teapot; neither have any bearing on physical human existence.

-RAnthony

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"I've endeavored to follow the path the experience suggested, to see where it leads." --Edgar Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:44 am 
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We don't yet have enough scientific knowledge to know what caused the big bang.

For all we know, our entire universe is a snow globe type thing on some alternate universe's child's nightstand.

We have enough scientific knowledge to have at least a basic understanding of what's floating around between here and Mars.

Bad analogy, unless you know for certain what caused the big bang and also know for certain it wasn't the doing of some other creature's actions in an alternate universe.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:45 am 
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The problem of God seems to fit into the same philosophical bin as the problem of beauty and the problem of truth and the problem of love.

What is truth? Is it universal? Does it change? Is it uniform regardless of circumstance?

What is beauty? Is it purely aesthetic? Can certain laws of nature be uses to determine its production and presence?

What is love? Is it purely instinctual? Can determinism alone explain it? Does it have a metaphysical component?

What is God? Is it an anthropomorphic force in the universe? Is it a neuron pattern existing in 95% of humans? Is it a universal consciousness existing between the nodes of human beings? Or the stars? Or something bigger?

I think any real belief system has to tackle these issues above all others. Christianity provides me the most satisfactory solutions to all of these problems.

Atheism or skepticism as a whole would also take a good shot at these answers, but it would also reserve the right to admit new evidence to the solution as it became available.

I think anyone who claims to be a skeptic and vigorously opposes any idea, with no room to admit new evidence into the debate as it becomes available, has failed to live up to the skeptic ideal. In this way, skepticism and athiesm can sometimes butt heads. The belief there is no deity would seem to deny the possibility of a deity existing in any form. However, we as humans are not very far removed from considering members of our own species as deities. Is a human being with an order of magnitude more power than other human beings enough to be considered a deity?

This refers back to the problem of God in the first place, and I think we'll need a definition of a deity while we continue to discuss the facets of atheism.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:51 am 
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Nomarch
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Kath wrote:
We don't yet have enough scientific knowledge to know what caused the big bang.

For all we know, our entire universe is a snow globe type thing on some alternate universe's child's nightstand.

We have enough scientific knowledge to have at least a basic understanding of what's floating around between here and Mars.

Bad analogy, unless you know for certain what caused the big bang and also know for certain it wasn't the doing of some other creature's actions in an alternate universe.


I liked this post from the SBOE thread (it's one of the reasons I decided to start this one) the poetry appeals to me. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20906&start=165

Red Heaven wrote:
RAnthony wrote:
Even a Big Bang theory (if accurate) leaves the question "where did that come from?".


That's assuming there's such thing as a "beginning". A universe that "begins" is based off a Western model. There are scientists from Eastern cultures trying to promote that the entity or essence that is the universe has existed for all time.

Blips like the "big bang" are waves in the in the ocean. We can measure when a wave began, but that which is the "ocean" has always been infinite.


None of this requires the existence of an intelligence in order for it (the universe, or universes) to exist.

-RAnthony

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"No Gods and No Masters" -- Margaret Sanger

"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." --George Orwell

"I've endeavored to follow the path the experience suggested, to see where it leads." --Edgar Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:55 am 
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RAnthony wrote:
None of this requires the existence of an intelligence in order for it (the universe, or universes) to exist.

-RAnthony

True, but now you have to prove that hypothesis is correct in order to state with certainty that there is no higher power at play. Can you do that?

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:57 am 
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MrOodles wrote:
Atheism or skepticism as a whole would also take a good shot at these answers, but it would also reserve the right to admit new evidence to the solution as it became available.

No, because it's not a belief system. That's why I titled the thread "Atheism is not a belief system". Sort of an attempt to define the parameters of argument. I tend to be logical like that.

-RAnthony

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"No Gods and No Masters" -- Margaret Sanger

"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." --George Orwell

"I've endeavored to follow the path the experience suggested, to see where it leads." --Edgar Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:01 am 
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RAnthony wrote:
No, because it's not a belief system.

It's not a religious belief system. You don't believe wearing certain clothes, eating certain foods and praying at certain times will get you to heaven.

You believe, however, that there is no god. Since you are taking this on faith, and relying on a belief in other hypotheses in order to support your belief, you have yourself a belief system. It's just not a religious belief system.

I have no religious belief system, but in terms of god, I take a solid, "I don't know and neither do you" position. Mine is not a belief system. Mine is an intellectually honest response to the god question.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:05 am 
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Kath wrote:
RAnthony wrote:
None of this requires the existence of an intelligence in order for it (the universe, or universes) to exist.

-RAnthony

True, but now you have to prove that hypothesis is correct in order to state with certainty that there is no higher power at play. Can you do that?

I'm sorry, but that isn't the case. I don't have to prove the infinite nature of the universe, or the non-existence of an intelligent hand in it's creation, any more than you are capable of proving the opposite.

That is the nature of a belief, as opposed to a fact or knowledge.

I can freely believe in the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I can even refer to you that groups website. http://www.venganza.org/ I don't have to provide one shred of evidence for FSM's existence to have a belief in him; or for that matter, to have him represented at any event in which participation by varying beliefs is encouraged.

-RAnthony

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"No Gods and No Masters" -- Margaret Sanger

"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." --George Orwell

"I've endeavored to follow the path the experience suggested, to see where it leads." --Edgar Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:15 am 
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RAnthony wrote:
MrOodles wrote:
Atheism or skepticism as a whole would also take a good shot at these answers, but it would also reserve the right to admit new evidence to the solution as it became available.

No, because it's not a belief system. That's why I titled the thread "Atheism is not a belief system". Sort of an attempt to define the parameters of argument. I tend to be logical like that.

-RAnthony


I suppose I should have emphasized that second part more.

I was trying to show that, in the absence of a metaphysical belief system, some other system for answering the stated questions is necessary. Once one decides to reject the possibility of a deity, be it for reasons of skepticism or some other means of rejection, these questions need to be answered with something that aligns with the means of rejection.

So if rejecting the possibility of a deity on the basis of skepticism is what makes an Atheist, then skepticism would have to have some other means for answering the stated questions. Atheism, like you said, doesn't have to have any answers to anything, but some belief system is going to guide a person to becoming an Atheist.

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My political philosophy is simple: Big is bad.

Big government. Big corporations. Big unions. Big special interest groups. You'll find me on the opposite side of their agenda.

Oppression always comes from the Big.

Trying to figure out the future of television at FutureToob


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:18 am 
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Kath wrote:
You believe, however, that there is no god. Since you are taking this on faith, and relying on a belief in other hypotheses in order to support your belief, you have yourself a belief system. It's just not a religious belief system.

I have no religious belief system, but in terms of god, I take a solid, "I don't know and neither do you" position. Mine is not a belief system. Mine is an intellectually honest response to the god question.

I have no belief concerning god. I'm a skeptic. Back to the teapot again, since the concept hasn't sank in yet, apparently. I have no belief concerning gods or teapots. For or against. The existence or non-existence of god is irrelevant, just like the teapot. There's no faith required to state 'there isn't a teapot' any more than there is to state 'there isn't a god'. There's no proof for the existence of either of them, and the likelihood of their existence is so marginally small as to be a near certainty. It's not faith, but logic at play here.

Go out and find a god. Bring back proof. It's far easier than proving the negative, the non-existence of something. If the teapot is there, it's just a matter of looking. The same goes for god.

I rejected Pascal's Wager, a long time ago, the idea that one should pretend that god exists, so he'll be benevolent towards you when judgment day arrives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

-RAnthony

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"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." --George Orwell

"I've endeavored to follow the path the experience suggested, to see where it leads." --Edgar Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:22 am 
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MrOodles wrote:
I was trying to show that, in the absence of a metaphysical belief system, some other system for answering the stated questions is necessary. Once one decides to reject the possibility of a deity, be it for reasons of skepticism or some other means of rejection, these questions need to be answered with something that aligns with the means of rejection.

So if rejecting the possibility of a deity on the basis of skepticism is what makes an Atheist, then skepticism would have to have some other means for answering the stated questions. Atheism, like you said, doesn't have to have any answers to anything, but some belief system is going to guide a person to becoming an Atheist.

Belief system is an oversimplification. The word you are looking for is philosophy, unless I am mistaken. Philosophies of various atheists are probably as numerous as the atheists themselves.

I consider myself an objectivist, for what that's worth.

-RAnthony

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"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." --George Orwell

"I've endeavored to follow the path the experience suggested, to see where it leads." --Edgar Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:36 am 
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RAnthony wrote:
I have no belief concerning god.

Sounds more like agnostic to me.

Atheists absolutely know there is no god.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:42 am 
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Kath wrote:
RAnthony wrote:
No, because it's not a belief system.

It's not a religious belief system. You don't believe wearing certain clothes, eating certain foods and praying at certain times will get you to heaven.

You believe, however, that there is no god. Since you are taking this on faith, and relying on a belief in other hypotheses in order to support your belief, you have yourself a belief system. It's just not a religious belief system.

Isn't that a little like saying that lack of belief in unicorns, leprechauns, or the existence of a 30-foot python in your cereal box is a belief system?
There is a literally infinite number of things, the existence of which is unworthy of consideration. My lack of belief in those things does not constitute a "belief system."

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