Cameron shows his eurosceptic side

Bruce, UK

Cameron a eurosceptic.

Keep chasing that rainbow.

starfish

Having reset my jaw after hearing Dave categorise himself as a eurosceptic I simply don't believe him

Nothing he has done in government suggests the slightest hint of scepticism

Terminolgy is interesting: 'ebb back', ignoring the tautological implications of the phrase, is he implying that we have reached the high water mark of sovereignty flowing to the EU?

Is this a spring or neap tide?

And he should remember tides are cyclical.....

Peter From Maidstone

Can you provide one piece of evidence that Cameron is a Eurosceptic? Any thing he has actually done that could be considered to repatriate any powers to the UK, or any evidence that he considers the UK Parliament to be sovereign?

strapworld

Forked tongues at work!

I am sure some of the A listers will use this as 'proof' that Cameron is a Eurosceptic. How does he get away with such utter tosh?

The Prime Minister insists that leaving the EU was “not in our national interest” but said he felt “very personally” that now was the time for a reconsideration of European relations.

For decades,politicians and civil servants (especially from the Foreign Office) have insisted that change to the EU may be desirable but always from the starting point that even without any change, we must remain in this corrupt and inefficient communistic/facist outfit.

Just remember that this corrupt body has never had its financial statements accepted. Lord Kinnock whilst a Commissioner sacked a whistleblower exposing the criminal neglect of the EU in its accountancy procedures. Such is the nature of this awful body.

Surely the treatment of Greece and Italy where they have placed unelected EU puppets in charge must send out a warning signal to anyone who has any love for democracy?

But for our Prime Minister, whilst alleging that he was a sceptic!! kept the same position as before, on the same day that the German CDU party approved the right of Euro Group Countries to voluntarily quit, surely this carries the absurd British policy to a ridiculous and illogical position.

This statement was just another cloud out of the mouth of a Prime Minister who is adept at saying one thing and doing the opposite. How many 'promises' or 'cast iron promises' has this man made and since abandoned?

That Mrs Merkel is headbound for more 'political union' and to ignore that fact betrays this country and certainly will not fool most people.

I do hope Cameron faces a leadership challenge next year. I for one will use my vote to send him to the backbenches. We need someone who will put Country first. Cameron certainly isn't.

normanc

Wolf! Wolf!

Nah, only joking.

Some of the things this government has done has been very positive but on other issues they've done nothing. Even the much vaunted spending cuts don't come into effect for another year, the reduction in the early stages largely being funded by tax increases.

When the cuts do come I'll certainly praise the government, and when powers start to ebb back to the UK (and bear in mind we've already given away more large areas of competency in the first 18 months of this government) I'll also praise it but please, for the love of God, stop talking about action but actually do something and then stick to it and don't back down at the first sign of protest.

Sorry if this double posted, browser glitched.

Andy H

Actions will always speak louder then words.

I really wish journalists of all flavors would stop reporting what politicians say and what they actually do.

If that happened, then we may find that these people actually had to do something for a change...

Liz Brown

Yeah right and if you believe that you will believe anything............

Dennis Churchill

None of our political class can be considered “Eurosceptic” simply because the political and social assumptions that have been drummed into them during their education, and self interest, does not lead to it.
For the political class the EU model is very advantageous to them personally.
We need to look to actions rather than rhetoric, as far as Cameron and others are concerned, as their background seems to convince them that sound bites rather than action is the correct response to every problem.
What is really needed is an official and credible Cost Benefit analysis of our membership. This has been avoided but without it we can’t move on from the ridiculous claims about the importance of our trade with the EU and the inevitability of agreeing to their regulatory regime regardless of our membership.

Colin

Talk is cheap.

Bellevue

Oh come on! Cameron doesnt HAVE a eurosceptic side.

ssleddon

This “ebb and flow” language is probably quite appropriate. Cameron has no more control of where the EU is going than he has of the tides.

It does sound rather passive though - what is so difficult about articulating exactly what our position is, and where we want to be?

Inminds

"Cameron shows his eurosceptic side"

And I blinked and missed it!

disenfranchised

it's become obvious that there's a huge divergence between politicians' and a voters' interpretations of eurosceptic.

apart from some heroic backbenchers, who, like the voters, want us completely out of the EU, the rest of the eurosceptics are simply a little doubtful about the powers of brussels, and may try, should luncheon not look fully up to 3 star one thursday, use the time trying to modify the odd EU law.....

Publius

"Cameron shows his eurosceptic side"

Oh, please!

Just more words, more message-management, being spun by tame hacks in order to create the impression of decisiveness.

Until I see action, I ain't interested.

Scary Biscuits

As the comments above illustrate, Cameron has exhausted his credibility on this issue. Mere words are no longer enough. The rumour that he promised Merkel only 'token' repatriations is far more believable than this speech.

The other problem is whilst we could probably all agree on some repatriation of powers, it simply isn't on offer. The EU has always been completely consistent on 'ever closer union'. Nothing in this latest crisis suggests that they have in any way abandoned that goal. Quite the reverse, they have become less democratic and more centralising, exactly the opposite of what all parties in Britain want.

The position of the British Establishment is like wanting an iPhone in grey. They sell them in either white or black. You either take it as it is or you choose not to buy. Equally, the only logical choice before us as a country is to stay in the EU and accept ever closer union, including joining the Euro one day, or leaving altogether. However much we may wish for a third way, it simply is not there.

Even if you assume Cameron is being honest in his 'eurosceptic' speech he is bound to come cropper when he collides with this reality. Yet again his credibility will be diminished as he is caught out saying what he thought was needed and not thinking things through.

Yam Yam

Just remember, Prime Minister, that - to paraphrase a famous MacMillan-era cartoon - when it comes to negotiating with our so-called EU 'partners' we Brits are still playing cricket whilst they (and the French especially) continue to play a particular vicious game of soccer.

Tiberius

PfM: one piece of evidence might be the withdrawal from the EPP, might it not.

Ian Walker

I'm going to bring some powers back from the EU myself.

And so is Spartacus.

an ex-tory voter

That's all right then, DC is a eurosceptic after all.
I can rest easy and stop worrying about the future my children and grandchildren will inherit from him and his coalition partners. It is such a blessed relief to know that despite everything he has done and not done, David Cameron was actually a "sceptic" all along. And of course, I need have no doubt about it, for as we all know, he is also "a man of his word".

Dimoto

It's all about definition.
I consider Cameron, myself and most sensible people in the UK and across Europe as Eurosceptic.

The trouble is, the UKIP crowd on here think that they have captured the word "Eurosceptic" (in much the same way that homosexuals captured "gay").

UKIP and fellow travellers ARE NOT Eurosceptic, they are EUrejectionists or EUabolutionists.

If we called spades, spades, we could cut out a lot of the cackle.

Mind you, how will Cameron's "variable geometry" work, if any incoming Labour government will immediately give away the hard-won, opt-outs ?

Dan Tubb

James you have dropped in my estimation if you truly believe that Cameron saying a thing and doing a thing are the same. The man has proven to us time and again that he talks eurosceptic everytime he needs to win people round and acts like a good EUSSR apparatchik everytime he is told to.

The man is a short term political tactician, moving from one headline to the next near having a conservative bone in his body. Most former Tory activists are now either looking fondly at UKIP or have already left, many voters will follow. Calls that we must vote Tory to stop Labour from gaining power fall on deaf ears, what’s is the difference between Labour and Tory these days? They are both big state socialists arguing over if the state should be 1.6% bigger or smaller.

Gawain

It would be so refreshing to experience a politician under promising and over delivering. My fear for Cameron is that the is working within an EU framework and those of us who have concluded that we would do better to take the

starfish

Just an observation but his statement 'we sceptics' will be used as a stick to beat him with every time he does not stop the EU panjandrum

Andy Carpark

"the 'flexibility of a network, not the rigidity of a bloc'"

Oooooooh! And all the proles say, Oooooooh!

Whatever will Demosthenese Dave, maker of speeches come up with next? 'The many, not the few'?

Forsyth, you are a second degree parasite. Your job makes plucking the lobsters out of Jane Mansfield's bottom look like the pinnacle of fulfilment and dignity.

Halcyondaze

Say whatever it takes, Dave, to keep those silly, contemptible conservatives quiet. Make the right noises, bide your time, and hopefully the Blair-ite gravy train will be along to pick you up in a couple of years time. But you got it wrong didn't you Dave? You realised your ambitions just as the British public reached breaking point with the politicians who have systematically dismantled their country in just a few decades. And now we see through your hopeless act. We want a patriotic government with some principle and the back bone to apply it - and that's not you, or Labour, or the Lib Dums.

ROJ

"powers ebb back"??? What's Dave "Canute" Cameron going to do? Sit in a deckchair on the beach and wait for his little eurosceptic feet to get wet?

Dennis Churchill

There is a theme developing with the above posts which Cameron’s advisers should take note of: words rather than deeds.
This is dangerous for him because it is rooted in truth. If Labour picks it up they can damage the coalition despite them being as guilty.

strapworld

Dennis Churchill makes a very valid point. I wrote yesterday that I could see the Labour Party changing their policy and calling for a referendum.

On which I would suggest democrats read the german newspaper website spiegal in which, today, they are suggesting that Merkel and Schäuble believe that a national referendum on the German constitution would be an essential step in reforming the EU".

Would Cameron then call a referendum in this country? I wouldn't hold your breath.

FvH

The 81 haven't bought Dave's posturing

read Douglas Carswell's Twitter feed

Cameron talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk

Fail

Steve Tierney

The Prime Minister should be worried. When he gives a speech like this he becomes a figure of fun because of it. Nobody believes a word he is saying.

Verity

Cameron's an elitist to the bone. He sees his glorious future among the elite "leaders" (iron-fisted rulers who make up laws to suit themselves on the hoof) of the EU.

For sheer nastiness, he is far, far more distasteful than Edward Heath. I'd say his nastiness/greed quotient equals Tony and Cherie Blair together.

Verity

Steve Tierney - Spot on.

I cannot imagine that there is one sentient Briton who believes a word that drops out of his hen's arse mouth. (No offence to hens, who I personally adore.)

MilkSnatcher

By law, dog-whistling should be confined to Party Conference season. Then the rest of us wouldn't have to pay for it.

Tarka the Rotter

Well, I was going to say that of course Cast Iron Dave has a eursceptic side - hit sits on it, and often talks out of it. But then, Andycarpark mentioned Jayne Mansfield's arse and I thought that rather took the wind out of it...

chinasyndrome

The real problem is that Cameron himself doesn't know what he wants or believes in. What hope for the rest of his party?

oldtimer

The only thing that will count is an actual change. Given Merkel`s recent comments, that looks very unlikely. Meantime, do Clegg, Mandelson and other UK citizens on the EU payroll ever declare their personal interest in promoting the EU interest whenever they speak? Is it not time that journalists and broadcasters got them to confirm their obligations to the EU each time they ask them for an opinion?

EC

Andy Carpark, November 15th, 2011 1:31pm

Flaccid Dave's new speechwriter is Julian Glover, former Grauniad journalist and civil partner of Matthew Parris.
WBGTDWI?

Herbert Thornton

It would be encouraging news - if we all believed that we could rely on things that Cameron says.

Unfortunately, he has established a reputation - and a very firm one indeed - for saying things merely for effect and with the aim of deceiving people. He is completely untrustworthy - a brazenly, shameless liar and unfit for public office

Boudicca

Yada Yada Yada. All mouth and no trousers.

Whether Cameron thinks we are better off in the EU is not the point. This is OUR country, not his.

WE should make the decision.

Where's our Referendum Cameron?

Magnolia

Douglas Carswell is the new Mrs Thatcher.
He likes plants. He knows what soil is.
He knows what soil to defend.
Did anyone else notice that rictus grin on Merkozy's face last week after the EUrocrats had been installed to run Greece and Italy?
Even now she talks of the Euro as being Europe.
I am very frightened of Germany and France at the moment and all that's between us and them is Hectoron in his dinner suit.

daniel maris

I thought it was one of the most cynical and dishonest speeches made by a UK politician in the last decade.

He knows that the EU never was and never can be a "network". It is a legal entity with its own laws and policies. It always has been. It can't change without becoming something quite different.

It was also incredibly dishonest in suggesting that somehow Norway is "worse off" than the UK. With a per capita GDP about 40% higher than the UK's it's hard to see exactly how Norwegians are worse off. Whilst it has no say on certain trade rules, equally it can stop the EU in interfering in lots of policy areas.

Frank P

Andy Car Park/EC.

I must run through the footage of the arrivals at the banquet and look for ACP's placard. ;-)

In fact I think I shall insist on interment rather than cremation, so that I can have it inscribed as an epitaph.

Heartless P.

The H2B is before all else, a charlaton and PR wonk.

Ignore anything this placeman does that does not include irrevocable action.

Cynic

Meanwhile Clegg says eurosceptics (better known as realists in our neck of the woods) wanting reform are "populists, chauvinists and demagogues". Since both populist and demagogue have relation to the people, I'd have thought that was a good thing - but obviously not in Clegg's (I love the EU, please don't stop my pension) thinking. We need more demagogues (ie popular political leaders or orators) and fewer never-had-a-proper-job career politicians.

ex-Tory Voter

Cameron is truly the Heir to Blair - I used to look at Blair and think "his lips are moving, he's lying". Now I think exactly the same about Cameron.

Hexhamgeezer

dave putting his 'tough eurosceptic' face on reminds me of when 'Tiger' Tim Henman used to be criticised for being a bit too soft on the courts. In response he adopted a wholly unconvincing angry look and forced out the odd feeble 'grrr!!'.

He still looked liked an effete ponce, and so does dave.

echo34

Oldtimer,

If we cannot get Korski to declare his EU interests before his inept articles on CH, there's no chance of your suggestions.

Andy Carpark

HG, I sent your comment to a Yorkshire acquaintance who despises Dave and Tim Henman in equal measure as the worst sort of pampered Southern Jessie. He said he could not have put it better himself.