Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Winning the battle, losing the war; the US and Pakistan
When former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said this weekend that Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are not safe under President Asif Ali Zardari, he almost certainly did not mean that the nuclear arsenal is not secure. The nuclear weapons have little to do with the civilian government; they are guarded ferociously by the Pakistan Army both against terrorist attacks and any foreign or U.S. attempt to seize them, and, as a matter of pride for Pakistanis chafing at any American suggestions otherwise, safeguarded to international standards.
Rather it was a rhetorical device to attack the government at a rally where Qureshi announced he was joining the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) , the party of former cricket star Imran Khan, a rising force in Pakistani politics. Qureshi’s assertion tapped into growing anti-Americanism, and a populist view that the civilian government led by the Pakistan People’s Party, to which he once belonged, had somehow sold the country’s honour – in this case symbolised by nuclear weapons – in return for American aid. (Pakistan first agreed its uneasy alliance with the United States under former military ruler Pervez Musharraf.)
Yet it is a measure of how distorted and narrow political discourse has become within Pakistan that Qureshi might use the safety of nuclear weapons to attack the government. That political discourse, difficult even at the best of times, is likely to become even narrower in the fury which has followed the NATO airstrikes which killed 24 Pakistani soldiers on the border with Afghanistan on Saturday.
The attack, which Pakistan says was unprovoked and NATO described as a “tragic, unintended incident”, has outraged Pakistanis who have already endured thousands of casualties in a war they believe was forced on them by the United States.
Underneath the confusion about the aims and course of the Afghan war, lies a deep sense of hurt that Pakistani lives are somehow less valued than American lives, and a painful loss of pride over the country’s inability to defend its territory from attacks by a foreign, and apparently hostile, power – whether from airstrikes, drones, or even the May raid by U.S. forces who killed Osama bin Laden.
The result is a society which is being shaped by the Afghan war in ways which neither Pakistan’s neighbours, nor western powers, would choose. The airstrikes, coming soon after the forced resignation of Pakistan’s ambassador to Washington Husain Haqqani for allegedly seeking American help to curb the power of the military, have added fresh oxygen to a combustible mix of anti-Americanism and religious nationalism enveloping Pakistan. Haqqani denies the allegation, but the so-called “Memogate” scandal has badly weakened the civilian government, while the airstrikes have rallied the country behind the army.
In such an environment, there is little room for a discourse that might suggest Pakistanis should also be outraged at the deaths of civilians blown up by suicide bombers sent by the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), and therefore discuss ways to turn decisively against Islamist militants. Nor is there space for a realistic political debate on how Pakistan should manage its foreign relations that goes beyond a hatred of America and an illusory faith in China’s readiness to ride to the rescue.
Before the latest crisis, the government had been pushing through legislative reforms to help democracy take root in Pakistan. It is difficult to see these making much more progress now as the government fights for survival. The tedious mechanics of documenting the economy, as a first step towards increasing the tax base and raising revenues, dropped off the political agenda long ago.
Expectations that the civilian government could become the first in Pakistan’s history to complete its term and be replaced by another democratically elected government are being lowered by the day as the politicians descend into the kind of internecine feuds typical of the 1990s. That decade ended in Musharraf’s military coup in 1999.
The next casualty of the rising tide of nationalism could well be Pakistan’s warming ties with India – one of the few relationships in the region that until now had been going well. The civilian government had eased itself into the driving seat in pushing for improved trade relations with India, though no one would suggest that it made the progress it did without the approval of the Pakistan Army. It has a particular interest in better ties with India - the army has drawn its power from a perceived need to defend the country against an Indian threat, contributing to Pakistan’s civilian-military imbalance.
So when Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Pakistani counterpart Yusuf Raza Gilani joined each other in early April to watch the Pakistan-India cricket semi-final in the town of Mohali, they discussed a Pakistani appeal that India drop its opposition to an EU duty waiver on Pakistani textiles exports. By the end of April, it was becoming clear that improved trade ties could be a game-changer. (Pakistan had earlier resisted improving trade without first settling the Kashmir dispute.) By early November, New Delhi agreed to the EU duty waiver and, more significantly, Pakistan granted Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status to India.
That mood has changed. Reports have begun to surface in the Pakistani media that the army has reservations about granting MFN status to India. The Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), the humanitarian wing of the banned Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group, and an organisation close to the military, has launched protests against granting India MFN status, saying that the Kashmir dispute must be settled first.
After the NATO airstrikes, a JuD protest to mourn the Pakistani soldiers killed turned quickly into a protest against improved trade ties with India. While the government may yet be able to push ahead with its India agenda – albeit on a very tight military leash – the signs are not looking good.
Progress in relations with India had become – quite unexpectedly – one of the few release valves left to ease off the pressures building up within Pakistan. On its western border, the United States and its allies are pushing ahead with an agenda in Afghanistan which has already integrated the possibility there will be no early peace settlement with Afghan insurgents - an idea long sought by Pakistan. And while Pakistan won some initial sympathy from foreign governments over the NATO airstrikes, its decision to boycott next week’s international conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, will - at least symbolically – highlight its isolation. It is beginning to look like a country turning in on itself in dangerous ways.
We have always known there was a risk that Pakistan could become to Afghanistan what Cambodia was to Vietnam - a country horribly destabilised by an American war spilling across its borders. We are not there yet. Perhaps those who say all will be well when the United States leaves the region will prove right – American influence for decades has tended to be toxic to Pakistan.
But pay attention to the domestic political discourse. There is no point in winning the battle in Afghanistan and losing the war in Pakistan.
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Imran Khan very angry speaks on NATO Attack on Pakistani forces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i32Ns5Duc lA
I would be least surprised if tomorrow a report surfaces telling the truth that the Pak soldiers were killed on request of Pak Army generals so that in heat of the moment, the PA could overturn the civilian government. All that these PA generals could care about is power and money and murdering 24 soldiers would be no big deal for them.
One question I have for Pakistanis – since there is such a huge macho feeling in Pakistan about being a mighty nuclear power etc, Pakistan should have gone to war with the US and it’s allies in Afghanistan by now. I wonder why it’s military has not done much other than to whine. You got 24 soldiers killed in one swoop. A couple of your citizens got killed in broad daylight by a CIA operative. US navy seals flew into Pakistan, killed OBL and flew off with his body. They asked for the remnants of the broken stealth chopper and got it back. Their drones are killing both Pak civilians and Pakistani assets. After all this, Pakistani military has done nothing to stand up to the Americans, nukes not withstanding. It is becoming very clear to the outside world that Pakistani military is made up of paper tigers. Not long ago, I have seen Pakistanis pride themselves about defeating the mighty Soviets and their eventual collapse (credits to Americans was quietly forgotten). Now what? How long are your armed brigades stand and thump their chests?
America, get out or we will shout.. I mean shoot!
Very good article “Winning the battle, losing the war; the US and Pakistan” it’s pretty accurate.
“The result is a society which is being shaped by the Afghan war in ways which neither Pakistan’s neighbours nor western powers, would choose” I’d like to add here you can also isert ” nore people of Pakistan would choose” Honestly most Pakistanis now feel tired of Afghanistan issues and it’s about time we should say good bye and close the borders and focus on our own Nation building and try to take corrective measures.
Pakistan have lost more than 60 Billion in direct cost of war and many billions more in shape of opportunities.
I think if Pakistan attended the Bonn conference it may be taken as “business as usual” so it’s better to stay away from Bonn conference and let the others nations find a solution without Pakistan. We do not want to sign on American agenda which we know will not work.
“American influence for decades has tended to be toxic to Pakistan” This one sentence truly describes US-Pak relations and “toxic” is Americans coerrsive attitudes and arrogance and bribes to locals to change loyalties. American Senat and Congress commitees make decisions on presentations and hearings. Americans businessmen learn about Chinese ways of life to understand counter partners, where as most American statemen have little inside knowledge of the regional politics yet they hold press conferences and pass-on comments like a King. Senator Kerry promised that legal action will be taken against CIA agent’s killing 3 innocent people in Lahore but he is free and beating up locals in bars.
KPSigh01 & 007XXX
I did not see your comments on Reuters “Corruption and India’s 1 percent” I wonder when you will look inside India.
KPSingh01: Pakistan fought Russia all alone for two years when the Afghanistan was invaded by Russia. We even shoot down their figher plane. FYI Americans joined the war much later. At that time Pakistan was not even a (declared) Nuclear state so leaving the Nuke aside, We did beat USSR as it was called then. By the way India was on USSR side.
Imran khan is a populist political personality and is not a progressive altrnative for Pakistan future. He has a baggage from his ties to the zionist family and is likely to be a security risk. Pakistan needs to form a national army, cultivate the culture of self reliance and reduce emotional rhetorics; the current political party system has proven regressive and must be replaced with a direct democracy and collective Govt. system. The use of terms such as martyr is not called for either, Pakistan military is directly responsible for the thousands who perished in the tribal territory and those who died in Pakistani towns as a result of retalatory actions of Pashtoons revenge. Why blame NATO and not the americans direct? Why allow the airfields to the USA to fly their killer drones and then protest in front of the public against the drones? What is business as usual? Pakistan needs a cultural revolution to understand the title of duplicity that they have now been given by its allies including USA and the UK.
The conditions at the Afghan front are not going to change for the yanks; the closer the they move towards the tribal residents, the closer the Pashtuns are going to spread across Afghanistan, almost encircling the northern alliance territories. The Pashtuns, call them talibans if one will, now move about in the entire Afghanistan with the support of Mr Karzai, and are apparently hitting foreign targets very hard, forcing the Americans to get closer to Pakistan border and beyond(BBC films shws this development). Pakistan punjabi generals should stop sulking and cursing their current allies including USA and the NATO and not repeat what they did blaming India for the debacle in Bengal. Those who do not know should be aware that BBC is the British Govt. entity which follows and supports the foreign policy of the UK govt. Pakistani intelligence must have discovered what we have seen recently that BBC was constantly showing a documentary film about the duplcity of Pakistan military at the time when other western media was showing the border debacle and the funeral ceremony of the dead Pakistani soldiers!
Rex Minor
Politicians should carefully use their words where nuclear arsenal is concerned after all nationalism is always superior than politics. Irresponsible statemnets aboout nuclear weopons by the ex foreign minister of the present government is a threat to Pakistan credibility with UN Security Council and the world. Remember they are alreay building a case against Pakistan on how safe the nukes are in a country infested with religious extemism and terrorism. With all due respect to Mr. Imran Khan just a word of advice to keep his party members under control in use of rehtorics where such sensitive issues are concerned. It was certainly not expected from a seasoned politician like Mr. Querishi to compromise on nationalism.
Hope Nato strike doesnot becom an excuse for our etsbalishment to call for emergency situation in Pakistan and dismiss a democratically elected government and not let it comeplte its tenure to play around and bring in its own set up. PTI can do much better for a long time if establishment stops intervening with advancing its popularity. With the wave of change engulfing Pakistani politics PTI will not need establishment crutches but definitley new well deserved faces chosen on merit to gain from this wave. Its the only chance Paksitan will have to survive if the establishment stops interfering where not required.
A well thought out post which few will disagree with.
The ban on the BBC being just another example of how the army is now all about rebuilding its power base and showing all who is the boss.
The Indian PM said he was convinced that the PA supported the peace effort with India. The good doctor got it wrong once again.
I do believe that if there is ever going to be a military take over again, the present time is ideal, its open season on the Pakistani civil establishment. Maybe Imran Khan will be pushed in by the Army as an alternate to a coup.
Facetruth: “Pakistan fought Russia all alone for two years when the Afghanistan was invaded by Russia. We even shoot down their figher plane. FYI Americans joined the war much later. At that time Pakistan was not even a (declared) Nuclear state so leaving the Nuke aside, We did beat USSR as it was called then. .”
Please provide credible reference.
“By the way India was on USSR side”
Thanks for letting us know. We did not know until now.
Facetruth: “I did not see your comments on Reuters “Corruption and India’s 1 percent” I wonder when you will look inside India.”
I’d like to be on the fore front where there is trouble. This is the forum where we have to make sure lies being repeated are prevented from becoming truths. This is because it involves our country. Matters internal to us – there are plenty there to take care of it. I don’t have to go there and argue. But anything external to our country, we have to give double importance. I do read a lot of forums on matters related to India. But do not see the need to jump in and defend anyone.
@Facetruth
“I did not see your comments on Reuters “Corruption and India’s 1 percent” I wonder when you will look inside India.”
That’s the point that for problems in our country we don’t sit and shout on forums BUT actually go out and protest on streets, get to system and try to improve it through practice and perseverance. International forums are not for falsely barking about the glory of one’s nukes but are for learning the various opinions of outsiders.
I wonder why no body asks why the hell is Pakistan doing this all? supporting TALIBAN and perhaps other terrorists to the extent that it is ready to lose its own soldiers. I regret the loss of lives whether it is Pakistani soldiers or Afghan civilians soldiers and foreign troops in Afghanistan. But please lets be serious. From one side Pakistan allows the US to exercise drone attacks on Pashtun areas to kill terrorists, from another side it supports Taliban on the ground. Panjab army kills all pashtuns who stand against extremist systematically so that the ground is ripe for Taliban rule. thousands of Pashtun tribal leaders who are anti Taliban are targeted by ISI or at least faciliatated by ISI to be killed by extremist. What about Pashtun lives? arent they human beings? when few Panjabis die, the whole world is crazy. the Fact of the matter is unless you get tough with these Panjabis who do not believe on any values religion or else, you are gonna lose this war. it is as simple as this. hurt them directly so that they give up their double game. there should be a limit that how long lie and double game is tolerated. PASHTUN VOICE
I support Imran Khan when he declares Pakistan should divorce itself from the USA and refuse to accept any aid. However, I do not believe his contantion that Pakistan can survive otherwise under his rule because, its a reality that once US AID is cut-off even the Middle East will cease to fund Pakistan. The alternative touted publicly through media sycophants by Kayani/Pasha is to “embrace China” even though they know privately from the Minister for Public Security that China has no intention of getting any closer, and will not risk the inclusion of 170mm or so Muslims fomenting trouble amongst its own Uighurs..The Politburo will not tolerate any effort to dismember China, hence the hard line against the poor Tibetans..
Bludde: “I support Imran Khan when he declares Pakistan should divorce itself from the USA and refuse to accept any aid. However, I do not believe his contantion that Pakistan can survive otherwise under his rule because, its a reality that once US AID is cut-off even the Middle East will cease to fund Pakistan.”
The other issue is that the US will punish Pakistan because they could not accomplish their goal in Afghanistan because of Pakistan. At the same time, they would be concerned about Pakistan going the way of North Korea or Burma. Another way they can screw Pakistan is by drawing it into conflicts so that no one dares go into Pakistan and set up business. This will include the Chinese as well. Moderate Pakistanis will bear the brunt of all this. They will be denied visas to the US and its ally countries. These are the people who are progressive and want to get out of Pakistan to have their voices heard. But they will end up getting punished.
“The alternative touted publicly through media sycophants by Kayani/Pasha is to “embrace China” even though they know privately from the Minister for Public Security that China has no intention of getting any closer, and will not risk the inclusion of 170mm or so Muslims fomenting trouble amongst its own Uighurs..The Politburo will not tolerate any effort to dismember China, hence the hard line against the poor Tibetans..”
China has entered a higher league now. They now need to keep an image of a nation that others can look up to. They will work hard to erase an image where people do not feel secure in dealing with them. If association with Pakistan spoils that new image, they will erase it in a cold blooded way. They might help Pakistan’s military in a clandestine way. As far investments and business, China may not be inclined to muddy its boots by stepping into the region that was vacated by the US for the same reason. If business picks up between India and China, Pakistan might lose all the favoritism it has been getting from China. Money is always important. Why would they spoil it? American and European consumer markets have been bled dry. Demands there will go down for Chinese manufactured products. India will be a new market they very much would like to enter and tap into.
The best option for Pakistan is to give up all its evil acts and embrace the modern world wholeheartedly. They need to erase off their militants ruthlessly and become a civil nation as quickly as possible. Imran Khan can only lead the nation out of its misery if the mullahs and middle age minded generals are taken out completely.
There is another option – go to war with the US. The US has always helped countries it has decimated in the past. It has made them into advanced countries by giving them all the necessary help. May be Pakistan should surrender to the US instead of the Taliban.
Bludde: “I support Imran Khan when he declares Pakistan should divorce itself from the USA and refuse to accept any aid. However, I do not believe his contantion that Pakistan can survive otherwise under his rule because, its a reality that once US AID is cut-off even the Middle East will cease to fund Pakistan.”
The other issue is that the US will punish Pakistan because they could not accomplish their goal in Afghanistan because of Pakistan. At the same time, they would be concerned about Pakistan going the way of North Korea or Burma. Another way they can screw Pakistan is by drawing it into conflicts so that no one dares go into Pakistan and set up business. This will include the Chinese as well. Moderate Pakistanis will bear the brunt of all this. They will be denied visas to the US and its ally countries. These are the people who are progressive and want to get out of Pakistan to have their voices heard. But they will end up getting punished.
“The alternative touted publicly through media sycophants by Kayani/Pasha is to “embrace China” even though they know privately from the Minister for Public Security that China has no intention of getting any closer, and will not risk the inclusion of 170mm or so Muslims fomenting trouble amongst its own Uighurs..The Politburo will not tolerate any effort to dismember China, hence the hard line against the poor Tibetans..”
China has entered a higher league now. They now need to keep an image of a nation that others can look up to. They will work hard to erase an image where people do not feel secure in dealing with them. If association with Pakistan spoils that new image, they will erase it in a cold blooded way. They might help Pakistan’s military in a clandestine way. As far investments and business, China may not be inclined to muddy its boots by stepping into the region that was vacated by the US for the same reason. If business picks up between India and China, Pakistan might lose all the favoritism it has been getting from China. Money is always important. Why would they spoil it? American and European consumer markets have been bled dry. Demands there will go down for Chinese manufactured products. India will be a new market they very much would like to enter and tap into.
The best option for Pakistan is to give up all its evil acts and embrace the modern world wholeheartedly. They need to erase off their militants ruthlessly and become a civil nation as quickly as possible. Imran Khan can only lead the nation out of its misery if the mullahs and middle age minded generals are taken out completely.
There is another option – go to war with the US. The US has always helped countries it has decimated in the past. It has made them into advanced countries by giving them all the necessary help. May be Pakistan should surrender to the US instead of the Taliban.
btw Mr Singh, my post was based on first hand info..I was in the Presidential Palace in April 2009 at a dinner for the Dy Minister of PS who sternly voiced concerns about sanctuary to “Muslim Uighur Miscreants”.. the Military assured them the bases would be “rooted out”.. BUT.. this was the second consecutive visit by the Dy Minister on the same subject and he certainly was not placated by the assurances… Leads one to conclude that the overlords can strut but try as hard as they might, they cannot control sentiment against the ungodly infidels amongst the Colonels and Captains below them in the heirarchy…. btw I take no sides and was under contract as a technical expert on funding and implementing the all important power projects.. severe brownouts still plague the country
Facetruth:I did not see your comments on Reuters “Corruption and India’s 1 percent
T am thoroughly surprised Pakistan talking about Indian corruption because its like India talking about corruption in canada. While we were at the postion of 87 (with a score of 3.3 slightly below china’s 3.5) Pakistan is a whole point under 2.3,
http://www.transparency.org/policy_resea rch/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results“.
Sensiblepatriot:
I don’t comments on Indian news, these are your problems.
Corruption level in both countries is really high.
007XXX:
I don’t comment on Indian news, these are your problems.
By the way comments on that news article “Corruption and India’s 1 percent” were sufficiently good.
KPSingh01: You and your imagination cannot fathom the friendship ties with China. Have you been to China recently, if not go and see how Pakistani are cared with free visa and prompt immigration.
Bludde: Do you think India is free of brown outs, go and see your self, according to BBC documentary shown two days ago 42% of India population earn less than USD1.25 per day. They slums were horrible and she said there are thousand like these in Mombai, New Delhi and other major cities. See that documentary to lighten-up or go and see it your self in India.
Facetruth: ” You and your imagination cannot fathom the friendship ties with China.”
You do not need imagination for gauging geo-political bear hugs. Right now China is giving your country a hug because along geo-political lines, that hug gains them something. It is very similar to China keeping North Korea close to its heart. It has nothing to do with love. Chinese look down upon others. Not long ago your country was the darling of the US and other Western countries. Today they look at you with scorn. Any shift in geo-politics can make China do the same to you. Your country is the one chasing them. Not the other way around.
“Have you been to China recently, if not go and see how Pakistani are cared with free visa and prompt immigration.”
So are North Koreans.
Facetruth: “Do you think India is free of brown outs, go and see your self, according to BBC documentary shown two days ago 42% of India population earn less than USD1.25 per day. They slums were horrible and she said there are thousand like these in Mombai, New Delhi and other major cities. See that documentary to lighten-up or go and see it your self in India.”
No one is denying about India’s problems. The truth is, Mr. Facetruth, India was much worse before. It is enormously huge and incredibly diverse. As a result, changes take place very slowly. Big size leads to inertia. But India is going in the right direction. It will probably be another 50 to 100 years of progress at the current rate for India to cross over the misery line. But that is normal for a nation of that size. India is not gifted with precious resources as much as Russia or the US or Australia are. Despite that, India has worked towards steady progress. What you are seeing is a snap shot of a changing nation. No matter how much you point at India’s weaknesses to score a counter point, the reality is this – Your country is dangerously on the brink. It could have done much better for itself over the past 60 years if it had made the wise choices and done the right thing. But your leaders always thought with their testes instead of brains. The end result is showing.
Facetruth:”Do you think India is free of brown outs, go and see your self, according to BBC documentary shown two days ago 42% ..and all the nonsense”.
Only one question straight on your face “How does our poverty affect Pakistan’s A**?”
The answer is it wont. Our poverty, Perceived injustices (most of its concocted but later on that) to minorities wont affect Pakistan. This is for the nth time, I have been mentioning to guys. No Indian terrorist lands in karachi killing people and blowing Pakistanis just because India is suffering from poverty and other ills, nor Indian government sends religious radicals just because Pakistan is growing super fast and prick in India’s eyes(pun intended).
If there is any country capable to shooting in Pakistan’s foot, it is itself.
We keep talking about Pakistan because its instability affects our Nation. Nobody gives two hoots if your terrorists blow your whole country up unless it start affecting us, the same reason why Yankees are there in the first place. Your impotence in governing your nation had brought about lot of countries (Iran,India,Russia,US,China) into your backyard because every other guy fears that having no leverage in that vacuous region means it can become powerplay of rival contenders.
Now lets understand something complex, the poverty statistics that you see all over the internet about India is old data. The last census on poverty was done in 2004 and published in 2005, which keeps popping up from various authors in analysing country’s discourse. But this is the period, From 2004-2012 during which India has grown rapidly at over 8.3 % compounded. It effectively doubled its GDP from some 951 billion to close to 2 trillion by end of this financial year.
This is the same period when Pakistan faced some of the worst crises and had to suffer near zero growth rates. Even counting for Gini coefficient which is slightly better than India (33 versus 37 in India), due to higher growth that India is acheiving (3 times faster than Pakistan), We are not sure if it is still terribly poor compared to Pakistan.
For example:”http://www.hindustantimes.com/I ndia-news/NewDelhi/Pak-better-than-India -on-poverty/Article1-764089.aspx”
For Instance read this unsuspecting Article, It clearly mentions Pakistan is ahead of India. Right? wrong!! If you read the Article carefully the statistics that UN propped where almost 7 years old, “Around 41.6% of Indians in 2005 were earning less than $1.25 a day as compared to 22.6% Pakistanis”. Here you are, the devil lies in the details. The UN comfortably uses old statistics for comparision and you see the same nonsense spewed by every other socialist in India for his own narrow vested interests. In India the rhetoric of poverty provides great oppurtunites for politicians and their lot.
In any case what stops the Pakistani officials, the pathological liers to the core, to concoct their statistics. People who could lie about Osama can lie about anything about their economic depravation. Some job by Ghairat brigate ain’t it?
My point is how could a country with worse Indicators in every measure (using HDI) can possibly be more richer?
Leaving the merits about who is more poor and lets assume India is more poor.
Still, How does our poverty affect you. If the argument is that India spends a lot on defence, what explains the Pakistan’s, which spends even more to the percentage of GDP. And in any case, You got those super,duper nuclear weapons in the hands of super duper Army generals to safeguard you.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/I ndia-news/NewDelhi/Pak-better-than-India -on-poverty/Article1-764089.aspx”
By the way, this Article which I mentioned in my previous post was actually published just about a month back but uses 7 year old data. So much for World bank’s objectivity.
@Sensible patriot
you have not answered the question I raised in my last post?
Do you or the rest of the Indian bloggers ever get the opportunity to watch the latest developments in other muslim countries, all craving for democracy and secular Govts. which are compatable with Islamic laws.
The founder of Pakistan asked for a separate territory for the muslim majority and hence for good or worse Pakistan came into being. His declared vision was to have a space for muslims to develope separately and to unfold their talents with the view to revive the glorious period of the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties. Since the partition of the country, Indian Govt.by design or default never provided this space to successive Pakistan Govts.
The political situations in both countries have ever since been determined by irrational actions and counteractions, Pakistan falling politicaly into the worst for their flirts and kakaphony with the Imperialists. The Indian born military President of Pakistan facilitated out of ignorance and cowardice, foreigner foothold in the country which Mr Jinnah argued for the muslim people of the sub-continent, thereby destabilising the entire region.
No power in the world has ever defeated or conquered the Nation of Pashtuns and as forecasted previously the foreign armada has been squarely defeated on the battle ground; turning famous marines and seals into night riders. They are on the run now and sooner than the announced period they are going to airlift the boots of the GI’s from the territory, leaving the somewhat stable Pakistan Govt in tatters and anyone with a sound common sense can forecast the aftermath for Pakistan and Afghanistan. I am not going to guess what the Pashtuns are gong to do beyond the takeover of Afghanistan?
In my view it is in neighbours interest including India and even China if necessary to ensure that stability returns to the subcontinent as quickly as possible. Their vision shoud include the stability for the region thereby improving in the quality and improvement in the standard of living for their people. Anyone who hesitates to come forward with such an intent is simply aiming to shoot in his feet.
Rex Minor
PS This is not the time to score points against each other.
“Indian Govt.by design or default never provided this space to successive Pakistan Govts”
What Pakistani govts.?? And why is it the responsibility on Indians for that. A**hole Jinnah got his ISLAAAAAMIC country for muslims and so there and then ENDS Indian responsibility to give them SPACE. It is Pakistan’s responsibility to find a political space in international world.
“This is not the time to score points against each other.”
Look who’s talking…
Rex:”you have not answered the question I raised in my last post? Do you or the rest of the Indian bloggers ever get the opportunity to watch the latest developments in other muslim countries, all craving for democracy and secular Govts. which are compatable with Islamic laws”.
Rex, We are extremely glad to see the changing landscape of the middle east and its democratic movements. We remember the good old days of our own democratic struggles with the british. Nobody will be more happy than Indians to see middle east prosper politically since any movement towards democracy and freedom is going to help Indians, who are the major part of the labour contingent ,(along with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) as they would benefit from rule of law and constitutional guarentee of freedom and tolerance.
The middle east is the last outpost in the world which still lives in the yesteryear timelines of theological concepts of society. The democratic experiements with moderate and progressive Islamic laws help in bringing the whole region in better shape than now.
Rex:”His declared vision was to have a space for muslims to develope separately and to unfold their talents with the view to revive the glorious period of the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties”
This is an interesting view really because if we try to replicate and do one the dynasties you will undo the other,Since both dynastices were in complete contrast to each other. While Umayyad dynasty were perceived by Islamic historians as more sectarian and treated non-Arabs as lower in privilege and treatement and drawn its legitimacy from Arab descendance.It sure was a military power which initiated the expansion of Islamic empire beyond Arab regions.
While Abbasid dynasty did not believe in Arab superiority and used the resentment of non-Arabs (along with Arabs) to dethrow the Ummayad empire. The Abbasid regime drawn its inspiration from theological roots of Islam and were thought to be direct descendents of prophet muhammed and so never had to pursue for the attachment with Arab descent and were thoroughly liberal in charecter. While christian world was slipping into despondency and theological bigotry, the Abbasid dynasty created the golden period for Islamic empire fusing scientific knowledge of Chinese, Indian and Roman empires and created its own classical intellectual edifice.
The empire parellelly developed its own intellectual capacities in all sciences considered western today by hardcore Islamists be it Algebra, Chemistry, Navigation principles. It had the gumption to develop new philosophies wihich were and sometimes not were in consonance with Islamic hadiths. They had critical view on the Hadiths and even attempted to interpret them in more generic terms to be used in what was known as secular administration.
Their respect for knowledge was unparalleled in Islamic history and truly felt that the “ink of scholar was holy than blood of martyr”. Every religious book has its own liberal and bigoted verses but Abbasids understood the irrelevance of following the entire Koran and Hadiths in fine print and were rather content in exploring and propogating Hadiths which valued knowledge,scientific discovery and tolerance.
Not suprising that while Umayyad’s could not last more than 90 years Abbasid dynasty lasted well over 500 years. It was believed Abbasid’s were more tolerant of jews than Christians in Europe at that time.
Now the interesting part is if the Jinnah and his cohorts were more influenced by Umaydad’s or Abbasid’s because if one were influenced by Umayyad’s then they would believe in superiority of descent and military does seem to believe in this theology through martial race theory. Jinnah may have tried to rally all the support by cleverly recalling both dynasties in an attempt to win support both from conservative and liberal elements among the muslims.Both groups(conservative and liberals) were suffering from inferiority and low esteem due to defeat and decline of Islamic influence in the world and Jinnah used it to the telling effect in creating pakistan. The fact that the state of Pakistan which was unable to decide whether it should go the Iran way or the Turkey way due to Jinnah’s own janus faced attitudes towards social and political attitudes, is the primary cause of its perils.
Sensiblepatriot,
That’s an enlightening piece, thank you.
Regards,
Ganesh Prasad
The comparison of Vietnam and Cambodia to Afghanistan and Pakistan is facile but very misleading. People who want to think clearly about this situation should resist the temptation to make expansive comparisons and instead focus on the particulars.
Pakistan is the author of the war in Afghanistan. Musharaf played matchmaker between the Taliban and Bin Laden in the 90s. Pakistan funded the network of madrassas across both Afghanistan and Pakistan which acted as a Jihad University in providing foot soldiers to the Taliban. Pakistan has maintained militant organizations as security state assets and cynically used these assets to launch numerous attacks in Afghanistan and India. Pakistan’s government, military, and ISI are all deeply infiltrated by jihadists. Pakistani civil society is crumbling along sectarian lines. Anger at the US is the only thing capable of uniting the country now.
And they have nukes.
The author is correct that US influence has been toxic to Pakistan. In the 1980′s, Reagan and Casey had plans to create 140 million islamic radicals to fight the Russians with no plans for demobilization after the war. When the Russians left, we abandoned them with floods of rebels, arms, munitions, and wars along their borders. The author is incorrect to write off China’s aid. China built and sold three warships to Pakistan that fight Somali pirates, and Islamabad owns the technology to build more vessels. China is building a port and oil terminal at Gwadar west of Karachi. China is building oil and gas pipelines through Pakistan to China. China built and sold several squadrons of combat aircraft that Pakistan has used to bomb al-Qaeda and Taliban forces in Pakistan. China has built other warplanes with Pakistan and transferred the technology to Pakistan for building more. China has other infrastructure projects that will link Pakistan to Iran, Afghanistan, central Asia, and China. These projects will give Pakistan solid commercial and military benefits to ease security concerns and provide economic stability. As the US winds down its wars, China has set up economic prospects for energy, raw materials, and commerce with more prosperous trading partners. That is the secret of China’s success: they trade with wealthy countries like the US and others, but they throw in some infrastructure projects with each purchase of resources to make their trading partners rich enough to buy China’s products. Stupid Americans and Europeans simply grab the resources and run making natives angry and earning future boycotts. The West should learn something from China: invest in your trading partners today for more sales in the future.
@Sensiblepatriot
Not only elightening but an excellent knowledge of history. I have no problems where details or our opinion may not be the same.
The so called Islamic parties are now in the forefront and are receiving the popular vote to form an Islamic secular Govt. in arab majority land.
Unfortunately successive Pakistan Govts. have so far failed to form a Nation of people in the country called Pakistan. This in my sincere view is due to the coloniHow much is due to the stance Indian Govt. took and how much one can relate to the colonial past is for the gistory t judge. My own views are that the Countries in the south east region are the emerging powers in the future and have much in common than what divides them. Indian leaders must develope a long term strategy for the region and not always formulate and act with short term interests and gains. Pakistan, unfortunately because of its own military involvement in politics is now tangled up with the Americans, who are the master of deceit and thuggery in modern times. The weak and incompetent civilian Govt. is unable to disengage their country from them and is simply sulking and showing emotions.
This is not that dramatic when one studies the European history. There is a financial crisis among us but solidarity and common interest for all europeans is the hallmarks of every european country. There are still some unwilling but the majority of the people want a more unified Europe.
A nice day.
Rex Minor
I have never seen a post from an american to admit that they have been defeated by Pashtun afghans?Ten years is longer than the period ww2 lasted? Their famous marines and seals have turned into NIGHT RIDERS.Did they ever admit that their massive foce was crushed by the little vietnamese army?
Today in the 21st century they have almost five hundred bases around the world, have structured torture prisons in many parts of the world including the crown jewel Guitanamo.
Their foreign and military policy is based on spins, pressure and clandestine operations by special forces. Why did Nixon have to leave office,whereas, George W was excused and protected by Obama for ordering the torture of prisoners?
Is this now the American norm to exercise pressure on allies and the perceived adversary? Too late for the new secretary of defence to criticise Israel and preach siplomacy in the middle east. Where is the lady in the red, the top diplomat who structured a CIA unit within the State dept. to spy and report on alliesas well. The German Foreign minister was not the only one?
Enough with this duplicity which its ally Pakistan was also lured into, without understanding the American culture.
@Baja Arizona, stop your crap of insinuations and the feed back of the USA media. You have not got the faintest idea what sort of DNA the Pashtuns have.They control the entire territory of the Pakhtoonkhwa and almost most of Afghanistan. President Karzai is a Pashtun and is strictly following the line of the so called Talibans.
Pakistan military has paid a heavy price for allowing the Americans to operate their covert actions in the independent Pashtun territory.
Rex Minor
alanchristopher:”The West should learn something from China: invest in your trading partners today for more sales in the future.”
China came up manufacturing good for the consumer markets in US and Europe. They do not have a large consumer market like the Western nations. If these nations go dry because of economic crisis, China will lose a huge chunk of its revenue. They are sitting on top of a huge housing bubble that might burst anytime. Their banks are allocated money by the government that is saved by its citizens. On paper they look better than the Western nations today. But they can fall very quickly too. They just do not have the fundamental infrastructure to revive on their own. Most of their progress is reliant on external business, where they could derive a huge trade deficit advantage (more export of cheaper priced good and less import for domestic consumption). They cannot stimulate economy by pumping money into their population to go forward and spend. Their public culture is not reliant on risk taking. They prefer to save rather than spend. When the majority of like that, it becomes very difficult to stimulate anything if a crisis happens.
Their trade partners are countries like Australia, Brazil etc who do not need China for political support. China buys minerals from Australia and farm products from Brazil. Its strategic partners are different – they have North Korea, Pakistan and any rogue state they can get into in order to leverage gains in geo-politics. For those states, they have a very different approach. All the infrastructure they build there is for their benefit – roads, military infrastructure, ports etc. They care a rat’s ass about the well being of people in those countries. They prefer autocrats who keep the public utterly poor and closed to the outside world.
They manipulate their currency value artificially. Corruption is rampant. All is not rosy with China. They definitely are a global power today. But they need to reform from within and begin to show maturity.
China will trade with anyone. But they get to make all the gains. That is the problem with their approach. At some point others will not have much to sustain that gain. And China will have to face that reality very soon.
Adding to KPSingh01′s post on China. When a culture repeatedly
poisons their own children for a few extra dollars in profit and ships poison laced consumer goods all over the world it is only a matter of time before the world wakes up and realizes that they cannot be trusted. Their products will not find a market at any price and I, for one, here in the US, will not buy anything make in China. Their foodstuffs & consumer products should be banned from US markets by the USDA.
@alanchristopher
“When the Russians left, we abandoned them with floods of rebels, arms, munitions, and wars along their borders. ”
And your government has learnt NOTHING and now making Libya into Afghanistan.
Here is an honestly expressed article:
http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/proto-in dian/2011/12/04/why-i-find-us-attacks-on -pakistan-satisfying/
KPS, thanks for sharing this gem of writing, showing the mental condition of people in Hindu-stan.
“Normally, I feel strongly against such blatant violations of the sovereignty of independent nations. But, and only as an exception, I must confess, the US action is giving me immense pleasure.”
This demolishes your thesis of Pakistan’s India hatred. In fact it is other way around. Care to explain this big bro.
The american media CNN is now struggling with two major issues, one the removal work for the Germans to remove the unexploded super american bomb which was dropped in the Rhein river during ww2 and the other news flash from Iran who apparently managed to bring down the American drone in their territory.
This proves at least one thing that the yanks have not very much improved target shooting since ww2. The american system should not have allowed colateral damage for their plots? Mr Obama new strategy to control the world from the sky instead of boots is not working either.
Rex Minor
Rex Minor
Matrixx: “This demolishes your thesis of Pakistan’s India hatred. In fact it is other way around. Care to explain this big bro.”
What this says is – it is good to see Pakistan getting a taste of its own medicine. We could not do anything to Pakistan when it launched its Jihad in Kashmir, terrorized our citizens, sent militants into Mumbai and killed our citizens. Proxy wars are difficult to deal with. And now Pakistan is blaming others of setting up proxy wars in its own territory. If Pakistan is so upset and hurt about its sovereignty after seeing the Americans walking all over them, Indians have every right to feel upset about our sovereignty being violated by Pakistan on a regular basis. That was the essence of this article. But you guys can only relate to hatred. I do not blame you. Such is your environment. Therefore anything said is only perceived only in terms of hatred.
Here is the old clown still weaving his illusions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGGenno4W To
So long as there are Pakistanis like this who still think with their rear ends, Pakistan has no hope of coming out of the rut.
KPSingh01,
It was an extremely good post regarding China.
http://mpettis.com/2011/12/how-do-we-kno w-that-china-is-overinvesting/
The following link is to substantiate your views where the Author throughly argues that its political economy has inherent weakness for exports and depends on investment for growth and its politico-economic edifice stands on clay feet.
We, Indians are aware of these weaknesses but keep calm since our own record is not great regarding some the very basic Indicators in Health,Education with respect to china.
People wont care if you have Democratic setup, rule of Law,Independent Judiciary, Liberal financial markets and Autonomous Banking system and they dont display patience and dont understand that the institutions that matter in making a coutry richer over the time. They just need to make quick buck and measure a country only based on their consumption (hence poverty) so that they can sell some goods. We will remain shut up regarding heaping slurs on others and continue to build our society based on long lasting autonomous institutions (like Lokpal) which we believe is the real reason why West has and continued to dominate the world at large.
Matrixx: “This demolishes your thesis of Pakistan’s India hatred. In fact it is other way around. Care to explain this big bro.”
Could you honestly tell me How you felt when Al-queda attacked Twin towers on 9/11. Was it a “pleasure” or a sense of justice. The arab streets were joyful and many danced when the super power was humbled by that attack. When you feel a sense of justice you get a kind of soothing effect on the mind. Is it a pleasure?
In fact it is!! Pleasure is of many kinds and a “sense of Justice” that happened to wrong doer is also a kind of pleasure which soothes the mind and puts an end to the revengeful mind and ends the recurring (infinite) penchant for revenge.
Its the time when mind says “the wrongdoer has got his punishment and let me get on to some important things of our life”. This is the reason why every religious book, every nation’s constitution talks about justice because it ends this revengeful recurrence in collective conciousness of soceity so that the society can move forward with hope and progress.
I am sure Pakistanis were immensely pleasured by our defeat with China and so were we regarding your defeat in Bangladesh war.
But everybody under their cloaks of decency are happy to see the enemy suffer because it not only gives a sense of pleasure that we call justice but also vindicates that our way of life is the correct one.
It is true that every society has its ideas of rights and wrongs based on its history of experiences, And views differ based on its historical discourse but very few societies have crossed the thin but a strong psychological line of justice.
This line of thought says that If person A how close he may be to your ideas,culture,history,perceived common sufferings has done harm to Person B how far he may be to your ideas,culture,history,Perceived common wrongs against you but still the Person A must get the punishment and sense of justice to Person B.
This is the reason why west has overtaken us in building better societies atleast domestically.They realized primordial loyalties based on common opinion and cultural traits cannot build a equal society.
When India supported LTTE in sriLanka in the belief of common culture and religion, it did not assume that the monster will come back to haunt it and realized that an ideology without a universal sense of justice degenerates into narrower and narrower definition of commonness (a sense of our guy!), though India supported due to common religion and common tamil culture across the border, the LTTE without any sense of Universal Justice (just like India at that Time) believed everybody against its most narrow ideas is an enemy. We suffered and then quietly corrected our discourse, but even after 20 years and building friendly relations with Srilanka we are still seen with wariness in some quarters of the Srilankan establishment.
When Pakistanis send terrorists across the border they do not realize that the building of anomisity is not one sided, it automatically becomes two sided and it may kill few security forces but it impacts collective conciousness of Indians who long for a sense of justice. If you call it our perverted sense of pleasure then so be it.
I dont say every Indian is drawing some pleasure from the situation that Pakistan is in right now, but we sure are laughing at your Military Generals foolishness who seem to be thinking from their A**es.
sensiblepatriot: “I am sure Pakistanis were immensely pleasured by our defeat with China and so were we regarding your defeat in Bangladesh war.”
See this video by Pakistan’s red neck, Zaid Hamid. There are three videos. In them Hamid spells out Pakistan’s overall strategy. He does talk about India’s defeat at the hands of China.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsgb2g2nI U4&feature=related
When there are people like these, who are bigots, but are powerful and influential speakers, they can pack a lot of lies and warp the minds of people, educated or not.
@sensible patriot
Humanity is concerned with victims, and show no solidarity with the aggressors. Only zombies derive pleasure from the sufferings of others and even foolishly express it. Please do not include the USA the self named leader of the west, in the west. A Nation which was built on the sweat of millions of slaves and severed its natural bondage with the west after Vietnam. Now it is submerged in hegemonic foreign policy, spy planes and drones.
How and how much Europe has achieved is a separate topic.
Rex Minor