Why Can't Games Do Sex?

By Rich Stanton Published 14 February, 2012

Not safe for work or play.

If you only play one game today, make it Sepe's Cumshot. In this you control a disembodied hand and stimulate the penis of a man called Sepe. The poor thing starts off limp, but stroke it a little and see what happens. As you work it more furiously, Sepe's cock engorges with blood, and his body hulks up. He's loving it! You can finish him off yourself.

Sepe's Cumshot is a funny game - and a big part of that is how your wrist is moving like it would during male masturbation. By that critical measure of how closely the mechanics and theme intertwine, Sepe's Cumshot is probably the best sex game ever made. But you could hardly call the competition stiff.

Sex in games is generally dreadful, and some of the time it's outright nasty. But these days there's more than ever before. For western developers it's a topic either avoided or incorporated unconvincingly. For indie devs it's less taboo, so smaller 'sex' games tend to be more original. And what about you, the player?

According to the mainstream you're male, for a start: the vast majority of videogame sex is man on woman in that order. That bias has to be seen in the context of society's own mores and realities, but in games it seems especially pronounced.

Studios like BioWare are leading the movement in the right direction by allowing sexual relationships between characters regardless of gender. And as far as the grinding mannequins go, Mass Effect's relatively classy. Its sex is presented in very short cutaways focussing on partial body shots with no jiggling, though the lighting and music are terribly cheesy. Mass Effect largely alludes to sex rather than showing it, with the closest it gets to naughty a few bums and orgasm faces.

'Why Can't Games Do Sex?' Screenshot 1

I have a soft spot for sex-ed game Adventures in Sex City, even though it's just multiple-choice questions, because you can play as Wonder Vag fighting the STD-infected Sperminator.

It's impossible to imagine that scene turning anyone on, yet this led to the game being described as "Luke Skywalker meets 'Debbie Does Dallas'" by Fox News. This controversy's interesting because it was manufactured: there's nothing to Mass Effect's 'sex', not even a pair of genitals. Yet it had a clear impact on Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age: Origins, where the characters get it on while wearing underwear.

This is one of the reasons mainstream games have been so tame up to now. Whenever the gutter press decide it's time for a videogame scare then sex and violence are the preferred topics. And in their eyes, one particular game combined the two like no other.

You can't look back on Hot Coffee without realising how absurd it was, and how one aspect of it kept sex out of games for years. Even though the incomplete mini-game couldn't be accessed without altering the original software, the ESRB re-rated the game up, from Mature to Adults Only - a disaster in America, as most major retailers don't stock AO games. Rockstar was forced to patch the PC game and re-issue the console versions.

Hot Coffee was a simulation of sex where both characters are clothed that you can't even access without modifying the original. What Rockstar faced in response to this was the American right at its most unreasonable and outraged. A smaller developer might have crumbled. You cannot predict or control that kind of reaction: who would invite it?

In this context, and especially considering the budgets involved in mainstream development, it's no wonder the big games are unusually light on the sexual act itself. Regardless of the media, sex is still a largely taboo topic where the boundaries of public acceptance are constantly in motion and vary by region: CD Projekt's The Witcher had a US release that removed all full-frontal nudity. E3 bans sexual content from its show floor. Such factors are not insignificant: what's the point in developing content that only a fraction of your audience might ever see?

'Why Can't Games Do Sex?' Screenshot 2

Attempts at making mainstream adult games so far have resulted in execrable pap like Bonetown ('The Videogame Where You Get Laid') and sequel Bonecraft, which prove that Stiffler is alive and well.

Thank god for the internet. Mainstream games are one thing, but there's a whole underclass of games with sizeable budgets dedicated to having virtual sex. In form and function, most are simple MMOGs that feature explicit sexual animations. 3D Sex Villa 2 is typical, offering a visually impressive client (in the context of its genre) but leaving no ambiguity about its target audience: "F**k horny cyber babes" is one of the charming lines from its homepage. There's even dodgier stuff: Ripened Peach Sex Sim (urgh) works on micro-transactions where you buy girls and other enhancements. The pubic hair chooser is currently 55% off, so get it while it's hot.

3D Sex Villa 2 also supports the most cringe-inducing feature sex games currently offer - what is known as a 'sinulator'. This is a sex device that links up to the PC that can either be used as a 'controller' for single-player games, or controlled remotely by another player. Sadly I am a virgin when it comes to sinulators, so here's a first-hand write-up.

Each to their own, but the concept behind these dedicated sex games is banal - meeting places with basic avatars, pornographic stylings, and the queasy option of plugins. I'd prefer a chatroom. Such coarse convention is the underlying problem that mainstream videogames have to confront. Bluntly, people often confuse porn with sex. And as an adjunct to this, games tend to treat sex literally - that is, for something to be sexual, we have to see sex.

There have been other approaches. The Copenhagen Game Collective made the Dark Room Sex Game which used Wii remotes - the whole thing only lasts a minute (ho ho) and you have to see and hear to understand how it works. That is a virtual sex act between two consenting adults.

There are simply too many indie games about sex to track, but needless to say there are endless pages of simple flash games that offer dubious pleasures. Most are one-click affairs, some are funny, all are absolutely dreadful. I followed one link to videogame-themed flash games, however, and struck gold. I'm going to withhold the link because it's gross, but the description says everything: "Sexy Juri Han from Super Street Fighter IV fights naked with her [REDACTED]. She rides hard and good as she [REDACTED] her [REDACTED] against the big [REDACTED]. After third round, click on the question mark, and Juri will start singing Ke$ha's Tick Tock."

'Why Can't Games Do Sex?' Screenshot 3

Making sex interactive in the manner that Quantic Dream's games have tried is always ruined by the jerkiness in animation such controls introduce. And it feels weird.

These games are obviously trash. The more serious small stuff treats sex as a potential mechanic or theme rather than one specific act. This can go from Edmund McMillen's The C Word, a grotesque shooter that brought its creator a lot of criticism, to something like A Closed World by the GAMBIT MIT Singapore Games Lab, a short RPG about sexual identity. The upcoming Polymorphous Perversity is a retro-styled RPG where you can have sex with pretty much anything.

There's one more factor to sex in games - what Brenda Brathwaite, author of Sex in Videogames, terms 'Emergent Sex'. Brathwaite references phenomena like World of Porncraft, a site that exists because Blizzard won't allow sexual content in World of Warcraft. So the users who want that, go there. The earliest example of this is also the proto-MMOG, MUD (Multi-User Dungeon), which gave rise to the term Mudsex, specifically referring to roleplayed virtual sex.

Emergent sex includes things like nude mods and those crazy sites with Sonic the Hedgehog porn (really), but Brathwaite's point is simple: people want sex. And as social games become more normalised and a part of people's lives, more will want the option of virtual sex. The most interesting thing is how only one mainstream virtual world has incorporated detailed sex into its universe, and it was all driven by the players.

I once spent a few days in Second Life, and though the time wasn't especially enjoyable there were definite highlights. Second Life allows sex, but regulates it - limiting the deed to private clubs and rooms. The most hilarious fact about Second Life sex is that the avatars have no genitals. Players have to buy some (and there's a brilliant PC Gamer article about it).

The whole thing seems ludicrous, but I am the foolish one. Sex in Second Life was and still is a major part of its economy. As Tiffany Widdershims, a Second Life brothel matriarch, said during the virtual world's heyday: "One learns a lot about the truth of human nature from charging guys to pay for cartoon sex, and then watching them flock to it. 99% of people will tell you that they are against pornography, and yet it's 40% of online activity. The whole thing is pretty ridiculous, really."

'Why Can't Games Do Sex?' Screenshot 4

The Sims games call sex 'woo-hoo', which ruins a little bit of Mario forever. Among the hot new features for the Sims 3 was the ability to have sex in public places, though not in school buildings. Imagine if the Daily Mail had got a sniff.

That's a point. Sex is the most natural thing in the world, and the reason you're here. Both literally, and because you were interested enough to click through. But we don't talk about it in videogames, or often in real life, in anything but the most generalised and softened terms.

I don't want more sex in games. But I think the whole way we consider the topic is wrong: in mainstream games, at least, sex more often than not means clumsily-animated dolls at the end of a subplot in the mission structure. That circumstance will only change with a breakthrough.

Perhaps Catherine, released last week, is one: a deep meditation on commitment, lust, and the consequences of adultery. The sex in it mixes gruesome and soft-core styles to unsettling effect, but it's the confusion and conflicting impulses of the main character that strikes a chord.

That's something. But until a game like Catherine is a huge hit, mainstream developers are hamstrung by circumstance. Cultural and legislative differences will always be a problem, the solution to which is making content more ambiguous and bland. And so sex in games, the representation of the act, is extremely unsexy.

There is something furtive about videogames and sex - a shyness, you could call it, or perhaps simply it's a fear. Videogame sex goes for serious, and ends up ridiculous. We snicker at the lame setups, corny dialogue, the soft plink-plonk of piano music in the background - and most of all at the idea someone, anywhere finds this arousing.

But if history, and Asia's huge interactive erotica market, show anything it is that sex sells. Sex is the number one interest of the human race, and every medium is fated to try and capture it. It feels like something that's never been done right, but who knows how long it will take for a game that changes minds. For now, we have Sepe's Cumshot. If you fancy a challenge, beat it.

Picture of Rich.

About Rich Stanton

Rich Stanton has been writing for Eurogamer since 2011, and also contributes to places like Edge, Nintendo Gamer, and PC Gamer. He lives in Bath, and is Terran for life.

Read more articles from Rich by visiting the Rich Stanton archive page.

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Comments (164) Latest comment 25 minutes ago

  • porkface Verified Features Editor, Eurogamer Network #1 2 days ago

    I took away some of the links as I imagine a few people will be reading this at work and quite want to hold on to their jobs. If you're super-curious, you can just stoke a search engine with the relevant game. I went through them all yesterday and haven't been quite the same since.

  • StolenGlory #2 2 days ago

    Videogames can't do sex because they don't watch enough/any porn.

    Simples.

    In all seriousness though, good article and it's nice to know that EG can discuss this stuff on a decent enough level without going all Sun/ZOO/Nuts on us.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 14:12

  • Baihu1983 #3 2 days ago

    Catherine....

  • Osahi #4 2 days ago

    I googled Sepe's cumshot and now I feel abused

  • jetsetwillie #5 2 days ago

    think the real question is why do we want sex in video games. i have youporn for that type of thing.

  • guernican #6 2 days ago

    Perhaps games can't do sex because it gives you too much detail. Unless you can project your own nasty little foibles onto something, perhaps it just doesn't work for me... er... you, of course.

  • superdelphinus #7 2 days ago

    @StolenGlory I would say it's the opposite really. Massively stereotyping alert, but I would expect most games developers to be men, and men who aren't particularly good with women.

  • xandoodle #8 2 days ago

    Before I even finish (...) the first two paragraphs are brilliant!

  • abigsmurf #9 2 days ago

    For all the talk about sleazy Japanese games, a large number of them do sex a whole lot better and respectfully than western games. You actively have to try to get to know the girls and get them to like you over a period of time.

    According to Bioware, you can get any women to sleep with you if you give them 4 or 5 gifts and then say the right thing next time you talk to them. They seem more interested in having 'edgy' situations than any real attempt to make the romances convincing ("our next game will let you have sex with with a purple skinned post-op gnome-ogre hybrid!" ).
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 15:08

  • rtk79 #10 2 days ago

    To be fair, sex is hard to render. Even porn struggles "doing" sex. Books are really your best bet. Should sex itself not suffice.

  • guernican #11 2 days ago

    @abigsmurf

    I would crawl over a marathon track of broken video games cases to have sex with a purple-skinned post-op gnome-ogre hybrid.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 16:46

  • Acquiescence #12 2 days ago

    @Osahi That was me, giving you a stealthy reach around.

  • CWW #13 2 days ago

    I was about to say, go live in Japan.

  • GiarcYekrub #14 2 days ago

    I see some potential with Kinect in this arena

  • The_Mountie #15 2 days ago

    Two articles appear today:

    * "If I Were in a Sealed Room With a Girl, I'd Probably XXX trailer"
    * "Why Can't Videogames Do Sex?"

    Hah!

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #16 2 days ago

    Why Can't Videogames Do Sex?
    Because US games retail is hidebound by 'moral majority' prudishness, just like their TV networks.

  • Shikasama #17 2 days ago

    It's quite interesting that the objectification and over sexualisation of female characters in games is routinley pilloried, but then we have massive conversations about how developers are rubbish at giving us hard ons in games.

  • Ultrasoundwave #18 2 days ago

    I still dont understand how Heavy Rain combined with the Move controller didnt cause any "accidents"........:eek:

  • jefranklin18 #19 2 days ago

    I would equate where the games industry is now to where Hollywood was in the 1950s. The difference there being US film censorship laws at the time as opposed to the moral outrage that is enforcing today's censorship.

  • KingFunkIII #20 2 days ago

    It's been said before and will be again, but the sex in The Witcher is absolutely dreadful. Disregarding the facts that the boobs look kinda weird and that almost every female character can't wait to jump into bed with our scary looking sociopath Geralt, the fact that you get awarded with a titillating card as some sort of prize is just wrong. The cutscenes themselves could be worse (i.e. unecessarily gratuitous or cheesier) and some are occasionally funny (the haunted mill, anyone?) but overall the sex just serves to undermine what was supposed to be a 'mature' game. I don't know how they handle it in the sequel - hopefully the cards are gone!

    But a pretty well written article and the latest in a string of pieces that compel me to buy Catherine...

  • berelain #21 2 days ago

    A very interesting and thought-provoking article. Thank you, EG, for treating this kind of subject with the frankness and seriousness it deserves!

  • Po1ymorph #22 2 days ago

    If I want to watch people "have it off", there's better mediums then video games. And sex scenes in mainstream films are always awkward affairs, so I wouldn't expect games to do any better.

  • KingFunkIII #23 2 days ago

    @rtk79 "Should sex itself not suffice."

    Stealth 'I've got a gf' post!
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 14:41

  • -cerberus- #24 2 days ago

    Silent Hill 2 is full of sexual references, you just have to know where to look.

  • Eldritch #25 2 days ago

  • Ironic_War_Criminal #26 2 days ago

    Someone's oblivious that Katawa Shoujo will sweep all the GOTY awards at the end of the year.

    (Don't play that game if you value your sanity)

  • Fluffin #27 2 days ago

    Because games let you do what you can't normally do.

    If I want to Drive a 1/2 million euro car at high speeds I play Forza. If I want to save the world from crazy evil people I play an uncharted game. If I want to shot people I play COD.

    If I want to release the pressure I type any combination of "sex , free , porn" into goggle.

  • yupyup #28 2 days ago

    I feel Fahrenheit deserves a mention for it's totally tasteful depiction of




    SPOILER




    necrophilia.




    /SPOILER
    Edited by 2 at 14/02/12 @ 14:54

  • RelaxedMikki #29 2 days ago

    Are we talking about sex or romance here?

    Games seem pretty good at providing pornography, if you're weird enough to want to get off from a game. (Which you might be...!)

    Games are bad at doing romance for the same reasons games are bad at doing other social interactions such as conversations - they are difficult, unpredictable, chaotic things to model. You want to model gravity or light refraction then you just need a few simple maths rules. You can't yet model romance in quite the same way.

    Anyways, don't other media struggle with portraying sex just as much? The sex you see in porno movies isn't like the sex I have, for all sorts of reasons. I don't look like a porn star and I smile sometimes, for a start...

  • KingFunkIII #30 2 days ago

    @Fluffin Unfortunately, the complicated mess of modern life we've made means that for some people sex is something they can't normally do...

  • jstar #31 2 days ago

    Post deleted at 14:59:26 14-02-2012

  • tachometer #32 2 days ago

    I'm annoyed that games can't do food properly. How many games do you someone eat a chicken or a sweetroll and you just get some numbers over the guys head to show what's happened.

  • Eldritch #33 2 days ago

    This may make me even more unpopular in these parts than ever before, but I think that one of the reasons that sex and sexual/sensual situations are rather awkward in games may be the fact that many developers are simply out of touch with that subject... along with other subjects.

    The same goes for re-using the same Chuck Norris film plots time and again and mistaking that for good dramatic writing. If you're out of touch with good writing, how are you supposed to produce some?

  • Ryze #34 2 days ago

    Why on EARTH would you want to play Sepe's Cumshot, when you can just go ahead and do the real thing? They could perhaps market it towards women - but they'd get bored too! They have to do that for us (reluctantly), so why'd they want to do it with a mouse, except to improve their 'technique'? :)

    Fail.

    Now - a female orgasm game'd be nice, if it was authentic. Could help girls all over the world to enjoy it a little more.

    The only issue we have in the way, is the media and peoples' old fashioned attitudes.

    That, and the issue we STILL have, of children playing mature rated games. Consoles should be sold with parental controls turned ON by default.

    This is similar to mobile phones, where adult content generally isn't accessible until it's turned on.

  • MrChuckles #35 2 days ago

    You can't put sex in games because it won't get stocked, that's it.

  • The_Mountie #36 2 days ago

    Sex Games on the Commodore 64 back in 1985 'nailed' it...

  • Nithron #37 2 days ago

    @KingFunkIII the Witcher 2 handles sex alright, actually. It doesn't happen anywhere near as often, and when it does, it seems like a natural conclusion to the situation you're in, rather than a game mechanic. No sex cards, either.

    Well okay, there's a fairly gratuitous lesbian bit at some point. That probably didn't need to be in there.

  • DanForinton #38 2 days ago

    @Mentalist
    just like their TV networks.
    Whatchoo talkin' about, Willis?
    Hung, Californication, Spartacus: Blood & Sand (aka Blood & Sex), Game of Thrones, Shameless, etc, etc, etc
    Yes, there are some networks that broadcast all-ages family friendly stuff 24-7. The horror. But there's no shortage of networks pushing the boundaries. Hell, they're doing better than the BBC, since apparently us Brits can't handle Cptn Jack's naked arse.

  • killuminati2911 #39 2 days ago

    @abigsmurf sadly this is how real ladies works.. give em enough gifts and that's it.. profit ;)

  • DreadedWalrus #40 2 days ago

    @rtk79 Tried that. Got a paper cut.

  • cheeky_BILLY #41 2 days ago

    COD is full of virgins..

  • RawNinjaKid #42 2 days ago

    Sexual references/innuendo is okay. Video games both "maturely" and "in-maturely" do it well. And in Silent Hill 2; it the references were a major part of understanding the narrative. (I think!)

    But it wasn't right in Heavy Rain, it just felt awkward and uncomfortable.
    Edited by 3 at 14/02/12 @ 15:25

  • Daryoon #43 2 days ago

    Because video games are still primarily aimed at 14-year-old boys, and those with the mentality of them. There's no market for mature, relationship driven narratives in the metaphorical school playground. That it's a male-dominated industry, both in terms of demographics and developers, doesn't help.

    Face it, if a game came out that approached sex in a mature way, it'd get the piss ripped out of it and labelled as soft porn masquerading as pedantic artistry.

  • Inmediasress #44 2 days ago

    I never care about sex in videogames.
    What I care about is how the story is written if it involves romance then how well is that written.(mind you can't name any game that I remember had good romance between characters)
    I don't care about pixel grinding and pillow humping animation or whatever.

  • bikmate #45 2 days ago

    There was a game, a DOS game where you controlled a penis(or two if you played multiplayer). You had to pick up stuff in a level design similar to Pac-Man games. Then when you finally picked up the condom, the lady on a bed in the middle of screen would remove the bed cover off her and then you could have a go with her completing the level.

    Did somebody else play this? But more importantly, does somebody know it's name and/or where I can find it?

  • Wot_the_Melon #46 2 days ago

    99% of people will tell you that they are against pornography, and yet it's 40% of online activity.
    Also, 53% of all statistics is made up on the spot.

  • Dangerous_Dan #47 2 days ago

    @abigsmurf - 4 or 5 gifts and then say the right things - sounds right ;)

  • -cerberus- #48 2 days ago

    @Wot_the_Melon: About 75% would agree with that.

  • AnotherIdiot #49 2 days ago

    It's because of the billions of marketing dollar that Nintendo have spent for 20 years trying to convince america that a console is the ideal gift to buy your child. Meaning that games are now closely associated with children and therefore adult content is not appropriate.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 15:49

  • 8bitMofo #50 2 days ago

    Larry Laffer is my hero.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 15:49

  • mamiasma #51 2 days ago

    What is Tintin doing with that lady?

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #52 2 days ago

    @DanForinton Congratulations, you fell into my trap.

    None of those are on US Network TV, they're all hidden away behind cable and satellite paywalls.

  • tossum #53 2 days ago

    As I started reading this for a minute I thought Ellie was back.

  • jonbwfc #54 2 days ago

    @tachometer I had a sweetroll in a game, but someone stole it. I complained to the local city guards, but they just mocked me.

  • Zaiz #55 2 days ago

    Short answer: Because videogames have such awful writing they can't handle sex well, at all. It also doesn't help that animation technology isn't up to the task.

  • Stuz359 #56 2 days ago

    Videogames can't even do a convincing character, let alone a complex relationship. The reason romance feels forced in games is because you don't believe it, the reason sex doesn't work in videogames is because it's the equivalent of seeing two sex dolls do it, and that's not sexy.

  • irrelevanthuman #57 2 days ago

    Why can't I get sex is a more pertinent query to me right now.

  • rudedudejude #58 2 days ago

    No mention of Virtual Jenna WTF.

    The most advanced 3d models, mocap, and all round pretty fun!

  • Scurrminator #59 2 days ago

    Scurrminator > Sperminator

  • KingFunkIII #60 2 days ago

    Negged for my comments on sex in The Witcher. Whoever is responsible, kindly illuminate us all as to how that aspect of the game is defensible...

  • DrStrangelove #61 2 days ago

    There are.

    http:// www.komix-games.com/game.php?game=cunt

    NSFW, obviously.

  • daft #62 2 days ago

    Because they are inanimitate objects! Duh...

  • Dangerous_Dan #63 2 days ago

    @KingFunkill

    Well, I didn't neg your comments but I completely disagree with your take on the witcher.
    If you would have preferred more mature content, well, not everybody is into the 40+ girls, in fact I think they made the right decision to choose the younger female demographic for the romantic scenes.
    I guess the cards are somewhat immature but I liked it anyway. In the books it's also very different from the typical High Fantasy story line and there are usually 2 or 3 sexual encounters in each book - not all mature by your standards.
    So actually the developer was somewhat faithful in that regard.
    Cheers! - I know you wanted some feedback.
    Edited by 2 at 14/02/12 @ 17:05

  • Kaminari #64 2 days ago

    This article is barely scratching the surface of the topic.

    Meanwhile, in Japan...

  • Tryum #65 2 days ago

    Whaaaat ? No mention of God of War sex scenes !

  • Kanjin #66 2 days ago

    Still trying to figure out that last redacted...

  • StooMonster #67 2 days ago

    Retro sex games include Sex Games on C64, a joystick wagger like summer games, and Mac OS's MacPlayMate in monochrome and MacPlayMate II in colour with mouse wiggling.

  • KingFunkIII #68 2 days ago

    @Dangerous_Dan I think we've had a misunderstanding.

    I meant that the game was supposed to deal with aspects of life (e.g. sex) in a mature fashion, which the cards don't do.

    I hadn't even thought about the fact that he's probably old enough to be father to them all! haha...

    I think perhaps games whereby the hero only has sex with older people could be a bit niche!

  • Ostinato #69 2 days ago

    It really is funny how violence has become the staple content for the majority of games and how just a tiny bit of 'realistical' sex in any commercial game will create a moral outrage throughout most of the western world. Actually, it's not funny.

    I say: bring it on. GIve me hardcore sex games. Be inventive, be creative. With the current standard of graphics, interactivity (move & kinect), surely someone should be able to come up with some exciting ideas?

    On a sidenote: if you consider that the technical possibilities for designing games are essentially limitless these days, would you not agree that the amount of new, creative, unexpected games is shockingly low?

  • Eldritch #70 2 days ago

    I remember reading about this one in its day.

  • juliankennedy23 #71 2 days ago

    I liked Two girls and a cup for the Kinect

  • juliankennedy23 #72 2 days ago

    Honestly I think one of the reasons Mass Effect sold so well was the Fox News report. And really Bioware sex scenes have been dropping in quality every release. From Miranda fully clothed in Mass Effect 2 to the ridiculous fade to black in Dragon Age 2.

    R rated movies have a little in and out with their untraviolence why can't an M rated game?

  • Conqueror #73 2 days ago

    Urrrrgh :mad:. I am deleting my account from eurogamer and never visiting this site again. I didn't know eurogamer was run by a bunch of perverts. Where's your shame and honour, you devils??? :evil:

    What is happening to games these days? Why are they being perverted with sex? Why are these satanist developers corrupting our children?

    The end is coming.

  • juliankennedy23 #74 2 days ago

    @Nithron Well okay, there's a fairly gratuitous lesbian bit at some point. That probably didn't need to be in there.


    There is no such thing as "gratuitous lesbian bit"

  • Dirtbox #75 2 days ago

    I know at least a dozen japanese games that beg to differ with this whole article.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 18:22

  • spekkeh #76 2 days ago

    Pretty fun read (well it's about sex so it didn't need to try really hard). Couple of thoughts though.

    It's a bit weird to see GAMBIT's rather inspirational little game to help kids cope with being homosexual inbetween a collection of crass porno-em-ups. Still, hadn't heard of it before, so thanks I guess.

    If one of your main points is to stop treating sex with taboo, then what's up with the [REDACTED]?

    This article reaffirms that I really need to buy Catherine, to support actual mature games.

  • hiddenranbir #77 2 days ago

    I must be crap at wanking, I can't get him past the first stage.


    Japan got tonnes of sex games. Even rape games.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 18:33

  • Timotei #78 2 days ago

    I suppose because body motion capture (bmc) would be delving in to the seedy realms of porn. Anything other than bmc just looks fucking ridiculous.

    We don't need sex in games, we don't even need it in films (is it just me that fast forwards those bits?). It's tiresome and clich�d.

  • stryker1121 #79 2 days ago

    @MENTAL1ST The major networks perhaps, but free cable networks like AMC and FX are able to push the boundaries fairly far. Nip/Tuck for example, if that's your thing.

  • meme #80 2 days ago

    @MENTAL1ST "None of those are on US Network TV, they're all hidden away behind cable and satellite paywalls."

    The issue is that there's a prudishness in the US associated with 'free broadcast'. The logic is that only adults can buy the premium cable channels like HBO, so it's okay that they show the occasional naughty happening. But that same logic seemingly doesn't apply to games, probably given that, even though they're relatively mainstream, they're still seen generally as 'something for kids'.

    In short - the comparison to TV is somewhat flawed, as unlike games, TV is taken seriously. Games are still very much considered a 'toy'.

    It's catch-22, though. The vast, vast, vast majority of professionally published games are targeted at males to ages 13-25. Because that's who buy them the most. But the only way out of that is to start marketing to a more mature generation (and by that I mean considered, intelligent, literary storytelling and scenarios, not just tits and gore). Except we can't do that as those sort of games don't sell as well.

  • Timotei #81 2 days ago

    @meme It'll happen, just takes time. Look at how film has progressed from slapstick. I bet talkies were pretty unpopular at first.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 19:10

  • funkateer #82 2 days ago

    "I don't want more sex in games."

    Of course you don't :)
    But you still managed to write a good article about it.

    I think a big part of the problem is that big companies like Sony, MS, Nintendo, Google and Apple don't want to associate themselves with pornography.
    People being torn to bloody pieces or kids shooting eachother in the head millions of times is of course all ok, but when it comes to sex, any explicitness is still a big taboo.
    That's the price we pay for having churches telling us that "sex is a sin" for hundreds of years, but I digress.

    But there's an opportunity there. A good start would be an X-rated channel on PSN and XBL that would contain good-ole porn movies but would also allow X-rated games (come on, Kinect and Move/EyeToy are just begging for naughty games).
    Just see how much that would improve console sales. I mean we all know why VHS won the videotape format war.

  • ajaxpliskin #83 2 days ago

    Great opening paragraph. I haven't read the rest yet, I just had to comment first.

  • Uncompetative #84 2 days ago

    I remember J. Allard or somesuch being filmed doing some early market research for the original Xbox and this guy in a bar say that Microsoft should develop peripherals for him and his girlfriend so that they could better carry on an, uh herm... "intimate"... long-distance relationship; e.g:

    http://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/Teledildonics

    His face went pale with horror on hearing about this potential untapped market.

    "No, I don't think Microsoft want to be accused of making The Sexbox."

    The student guy looked kinda glum. I wonder if he got his hopes up over Kinect.

  • DurzoBlint #85 2 days ago

    Games can't do sex because the people that make them are basically children. BioWare is an excellent example of this, actually.

  • toy_brain #86 2 days ago

    I'm not sure if this has anything to do with anything the article is about, but a thought did come to mind that seems sort of relevant.

    Porn is, by and large, shit.

    By which I mean, it's badly produced, on a less-than-shoestring budget, and with very little care paid to any individual product (Not that I've watched a ton of them, but that's how it seems based on my modest exposure*).
    But that's fine for mucky films. All you need is a bloke that knows how to hold a camera, 2 'actors' with low enough shame to do it, and someone with Adobe Movie Maker to hack it all togeather. The end result satisfies the market.

    Try to hack a game togeather using the same method and things will quickly fall apart.
    That game will need decent character models, an at least workable game engine, some sort of gameplay design, and bugtesting. That means artists, coders and testers.
    And it'll take more than just a couple days to create.
    Which is why these sorts of games tend to be crude flash efforts or hilariously bug-riddled travesties of code.

    So I suspect that sexually explicit games will grow and blossom just like sexually explicit films.
    Meaning, they won't.
    The production cycle and demands of videogames just doesn't fit with the demands of the pornography industry, in the same way the production cycle of regular films also does not.

    *Sad that I feel the need to put that disclamer in there. I guess I'm still English, so I still have a massive rod up my arse.
    No not like THAT!

  • foxdie_01 #87 2 days ago

    great another quick time event... :redface:

  • funkateer #88 2 days ago

    "Porn is, by and large, shit."

    Well, yes and no. Yes it's basically all just badly produced inspiration-free garbage.
    But that didn't stop it being the ultimate money magnet.

  • danjfor #89 2 days ago

    Games do sex about as well as they do violence, ie. terribly. Over the decades they've built up rules and conventions about doing violence that we accept, same as films have, but fundamentally "press B to punch" is as ridiculous as "press up to thrust."

    Aesthetically-presented pretend violence has been open for public enjoyment for ages, whereas the same thing for sex gets called porn and made shameful. I wonder why? When faced with a real-life violent threat, you hope you've maybed learned something handy from all those years of Street Fighter; would thinking "Right, so it's right-analogue-stick to massage her boobs to get her arousal meter up, then..." provide the same comfort?

  • toy_brain #90 2 days ago

    @funkateer
    True, though I'm always puzzled by the fact that an industry worth so much, still gets away with pumping out nothing but low quality rubbish.

    You'd think at least some of that $9 billion a year in revenue could go towards some special effects, or a decent musical score, or some CGI.

    /Wants EPIC PORN!

  • Timotei #91 2 days ago

    @funkateer

    Bollocks. There's a lot of good porn out there, stuff that doesn't involve music and moustaches. Stuff that is real (mainly women masturbating, but that's cool).

  • BuckEntropy #92 2 days ago

    Too many possible answers to this question, many different reasons for it; and probably more good reasons than bad ones even...

    Terms like "gunporn" get thrown around easily enough, but without much thought to the underlying truth of it: the common depictions of violence in games is a low-level, fundamentally mechanical engagement. Calling it gratuitous or no; it's certainly not any great intellectual engagement that keeps us coming back for more.

    Fantasy violence is tacitly approved - blame the patriarchal society or whatever - yet we still give lip-service to violence being abhorrent behavior in all forms and circumstances. But that also gives a layer of safety (real, but perhaps not so real as perceived) to fantasizing about violence: it is a reasonable presumption that (young-)adults can maintain a clear separation between the fantasy, and their understanding of the civil standards of our age.

    In real terms, everything added beyond the most abstract framework of the game interactions are generally pornographic; all the aesthetics that bring the context closer to an immediate reality transference. If 90% of a 'fun game' involves pulling a trigger, getting an instant manifestation of destructive power, and seeing cookie cutter humanoids die... then there's obviously something pretty basic being stroked there as well.

    Which is not a criticism, as such. But it's clear that, for all our ambiguity in rhetoric, there's very little shame inherent or fundamental to the idea of violence, in our culture. Whereas sex is, in practice, a far more ambiguous moral conundrum.

    So as a convenient contrast: with the established goals and templates for a videogame, violence is at least given an honest treatment. By very virtue of how shameless that treatment may be. For sex to be given as honest a treatment, it needs be shameless to a similar degree. Which in the established context, also means an acceptance that the medium is innately pornographic in form. And so, in most cases, better sex - or a more honest treatment of it - will indeed dictate the goal as better pornography. Which would be it's own added hurdle of shame...

    The Japanese sex games reflect exactly that issue, it seems to me their current culture is a little more shameful about violence, and quite a bit less so about sex, than 'the west'. Without getting into any judgment of relative merit, at least the greater coherence of social mores perhaps affords greater integrity in accepted fantasy diversion. Yet again there is too much ambiguity in attitudes about sex in the west right now, and videogames are about the last medium that should be expected to explore or evolve those attitudes as a whole.

    I guess in a way, the whole mess says even more about our ambiguous attitudes about games, as about sex itself? :|

  • memeroot #93 2 days ago

    Daily Thompson waggling

  • apoc_reg #94 2 days ago

    Because it's pathetic and ridiculous, these are games

  • flamingdog #95 2 days ago

    sex in computer games will never be anything other than embarrassing until computer gamers themselves stop being embarrassed about sex. your weird repression is all over this article like herpes

  • disappointed #96 2 days ago

    Can't do sex if you can't do relationships. No-one makes a fuss about the sex in Sims because it just happens as a natural part of the (very primitively simulated) relationships.

    Also, games are made by young, straight, white men. Can't do sex if women aren't well represented within developers. Can't do relationships if you don't have old - and therefore experienced - people working on the games.

    Sims just uses a single integer to simulate a relationship. Imagine how good we'd be at simulating relationships if we'd put as much effort into it as we have done with manly things like optics and physics...

  • benfresh76 #97 2 days ago

    Why can't games do sex? I have no answer to that question other than to say I see no reason whatsoever why games need to "do" sex...In much the same way that games are an abysmal narrative medium, when it comes to sexual content, there is no way they can or ever will compete on a level playing field with well established media that do these things better and with relative ease.

    Games need sex like a fish needs a bicycle. In fact a fish would probably find a bicycle slightly more useful and infinitely less embarrassing.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 21:36

  • verynaughtyboy #98 2 days ago

    To be totally honest, why would anyone want sex in videogames!?

  • stryker1121 #99 2 days ago

    @funkateer "Porn is, by and large, shit."

    No, that's mainly the stuff coming out of Germany. :)

  • ThaneKrios #100 2 days ago

    @verynaughtyboy Why would anyone want sex in movies!? The answer is the same for both cases.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 21:56

  • butler` #101 2 days ago

    @stryker1121 wtf, have you not seen "german girlfriend lasgo"?

    ... aaaand that's it, thread derailed

  • Jayja #102 2 days ago

    Not a very well-researched article, I have to say.
    Seems to ignore a lot of the Japanese games, or even mention of things like POP: Sands of Time. As for romance, The Darkness would deserve a mention (the couch scene was quite well done, I thought).
    (Disclosure: I actually write porn games as a hobby and have some on sale on one of the largest sites for that stuff, based in Japan so genitals have to be censored :/ )

    Plus, could people stop mentioning Katawa Shoujo for no good reason? It's becoming the new Dark Souls in that respect. It's as though heaps of people have only just discovered the existence of terrible VNs written by 4chaners for 4chaners... I actually like VNs but that one is ridiculously bad (see, for example, the RPS 'Wot I think's)

  • KopparbergDave #103 2 days ago

    Games will do sex well when you have "attachments" for male and female players which stimulate the right areas in direct correlation to an on screen avatar of Jessica Alba/Ryan Reynolds as she seduces you by playing with your ding dong/dingaling. No, really. It would be good.


    Edit* Move clearly is a step ahead in this regard. In fact two steps ahead, you know where the mini analogue stick one goes. (SORRY)
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 22:11

  • Harmonica #104 2 days ago

    You lost me at describing the sexual adventures in Mass Effect as 'classy'. Chortle.

    Games can't do sex because big-budget game developers are mostly repressed or under-exposed (hoho) or married with 2.4 children, and catering to a fanbase who revel in their lack of sexual/cultural maturity. This is a not a hotbed for brilliance.

    No worries, though, since the treatment of sex in media mostly ranges from reactionary to gleeful to stomach-turning and everything else besides what it should be, which is the simple act itself.

    There's no subtext or through line to it; it's not complicated. It's the most un-complicated thing. When narrative forms portray sex, it's within the confines of storytelling tissue paper, the vaseline on the lens. The terms in which people find it most comfortable to think about sex is as representitive of some deeper meaning, but this is clearly bollocks. Good porn does sex very well because it's under no illusions about itself, its intended audience or its purpose. If games - or TV, or films - want to do sex better (which sounds like something Borat would say), they should either exclude it completely or break out into proper full on hardcore interludes where the only intention is to tittilate. Let's face it, setting aside the flimsy plot points usually employed in such circumstances, sex is a ratings grabber.

    The problem is over gilding the lilly, when you should just be, well, gilding.

    edit: so yeah, Stanton, you've basically got it upside down; the 'coarse' games roaming the internet which purely purport to be about sex, those are the future, those are what I would like to see more of, done better, with less purple haired pointy eared types. If there's going to be games with sex, make it vulgar. On the other hand, 'classy' Mass Effect guff where shagging someone is somehow intertwined with the salvation of the galaxy, that is a backwards step for a society which is generally much more progressive nowadays.
    Edited by 3 at 14/02/12 @ 23:21

  • Hastur #105 2 days ago

    I think the problem with sex in video games is that the general public still associates the medium with children. And sexual content in combination with minors is one of the biggest taboos, especially in the States. But I would love to see more grown-up themes in mainstream games.

  • Jay-ITFC #106 2 days ago

    "But you could hardly call the competition stiff."

    In context with the article this is the greatest sentence in the history of EG.

  • CaptainKid #107 2 days ago

    Didn't read. I bet it's the same reason films can't have sex.
    Rating.
    Although with games it seems to go a little further; even a naked boob can make a fuzz.
    I was mighty surprised I saw a full frontal penis in the GTA IV: The Lost and damned.

  • Harmonica #108 2 days ago

    @Hastur It's not so much videogames being linked with children it's videogames being called games, and games themselves generally considered a waste of time or frivilous (despite the fact that we mostly communicate as a species using play).

    But this is a tangent.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 23:22

  • oupe #109 2 days ago

    TLDR: Whatever is in this article. Real wet p*ss* will ALWAYS be better than any computer.

  • Bombonera #110 2 days ago

    Great article. The sex scenes in Mass Effect and Dragon Age games were utterly cringeworthy. I think the only sex scene in a game that was actually well done, or dare I say arousing, was the one in Heavy Rain with Madison and Ethan.

  • Billybob21 #111 2 days ago

    Whats the matter? Someone steal your sweetroll?

    *I say in my best stereo-typical norwegian accent*

  • Billybob21 #112 2 days ago

    Sorry, that was supposed to be @tacometer.

  • drhickman1983 #113 2 days ago

    In mainstream games, at least, sex more often than not means clumsily-animated dolls at the end of a subplot in the mission structure.
    Get the girl, kill the baddies, and save the entire planet. Is this really any different to how mainstream cinema portrays sex? Meaningful discourses about relationships are rare in popular films, certainly not in those action films that inform many games (even in some films that are supposed to be about relationships the entire subject ends up getting glossed over).

    I'm not convinced sex is really needed in games. To be honest, it's not needed in most films, as it's usually just cheap titillation. Not that there's anything wrong with cheap titillation, but explicit sex scenes rarely ever further the plot. It really is a rather cheap way to captivate the audience, and very rarely is sex shot in a way that wont make it seem enticing (even rape scenes in too many films are shot this way. Yes, the heroine may be crying but the camera will still linger on her form slightly more than it needs to).

    If there is something furtive about sex in games, it's a furtiveness that pervades all our culture, an unwillingness to discuss sex in anything other than the broadest strokes.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 23:50

  • jogyourmind #114 2 days ago

    Sex in gaming could be FAR better than porn, partly because it would be completely interactive where you choose exactly what happens, and partly because there is time for you to develop an emotional bond with the 'love interest' in the game - which doesn't happen at all in porn. The only thing that comes close are the full length 'romance' movies like Emmanuelle or whatever, but then that's not really porn anyway.

    Not only could it be great, but it could also sell incredibly well too. Sex sells, a LOT, so I bet there are lots of developers who would love to cash in on a really good sex game.

    The problem though is that the biggest market in the world (western world atleast) is the USA, where sadly half the population is basically Helen Lovejoy.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/12 @ 23:41

  • floppylobster #115 2 days ago

    I think the answer is pretty obvious. You only need to look at the people who make games versus the people who make erotica. They are very different people.

  • verynaughtyboy #116 2 days ago

    @ThaneKrios
    No it's not. In the movies you get to see real flesh. Most men would be happy to see Scarlett Johannsen naked in a sex scene, but a virtual character?!

    Sorry but that is just sad and it's desires like that that give us gamers a reputation as masturbating losers that wouldn't know either how to get a girl or what to do with one if they did.

  • ctankep #117 2 days ago

    Nice run of interesting posts on here.!

    -

    Why do sex in games? Because it's inherently interesting to the human nature -- and enough so to make porn so popular. But it's not just the mechanics around sex or porn that compel us but the emotions, relationships and psychological aspects that stimulate us. Unfortunately these are all things that developers don't have a good grasp of, and usually without adequate girth or depth of feeling to get our mental juices awash.

    The pleasures of sex would be a huge undertaking to simulate. As there's no good equivalent in terms of existing game design systems and structure to describe "being" and interaction in that rich detail. All the hacks we've had in games so far such as QTE's or Bioware's dialogue choices to "re -present" anything more complex than basic action are a poor substitute for the heady mix of stuff that goes on in our brains.

    Perhaps it's also the inscrutable nature of sexuality which continue to fascinate & satiate the human mind. WIth it's obsessive pattern analysis sex remains enticing and elusive to apprehend, connected to the murky shore of desire and subjective experience. We need to be able to do emotion properly before we can even think about relationships. And how would you model that using a computative model?

    I suppose Michael Mateas' [ "Facade" ] latest game "Prom Week" is looking to explore social connections and these are baby steps to simulating relationships in a more fleshed out manner. But honestly with only 3 or 4 developers in the whole world playing around with these ideas progress is going to be slow. The japanese developer Illusion Software is at an interesting point -- where they can make graphics that are enough to arouse, but also at the same time so empty and devoid of human feeling that the re -course is to push things towards power / control fantasies. I don't think we'll have anything like being able to represent how great sex can make you feel anytime soon.


    -- Chuan

  • ShiroBen #118 2 days ago

    Okay, Sepe's Cumshot was actually hilarious.

    Seriously though, look at the better visual novels or even eroge if you want good sex in videogames. It's all about emotion, people. The actual issue is "Why can't videogames do good characterisation?", and the answer is that of course they can, except most developers don't bother much with the writing. Get a decent writer on board and everything else will follow. Mass Effect is a really good example, especially ME2--the relationship (RELATIONSHIP, not just bumpity-bumpity oo-er there go me trousers) between (for instance) Shepard and Garrus is awkward and hilarious and touching, the interactions between Shepard and Tali are sweet and cute and earnest. There's an emotional connection there, I care about these characters and so it all works.

  • Nephirion #119 2 days ago

    Most gamers don't have sex as they cant get it, so including it in a game would be alien to them ..

  • darkmorgado #120 2 days ago

    @Shikasama

    "It's quite interesting that the objectification and over sexualisation of female characters in games is routinley pilloried, but then we have massive conversations about how developers are rubbish at giving us hard ons in games. "

    Two brief points.

    1) You can treat and portray sex without either party being objectified

    2) Sex isn't purely limited to heterosexuality, you know. I know a lot of people become very vocal about any attempt to even recognise homosexual relationships (some of the posts on the Old Republic forums about the impending addition same-sex relationships are pretty disgusting), but the fact is that, even with the incredibly limited attempts to address relationships in games, within that narrow sphere it is almost exclusively male-on-female, or occasionaly female-on-female to titilate a particular immature audience.

    I'd go so far to say that sex itself isn't the problem here, it's the lack of convincing or deep relationships in games full stop. As someone else has said, buy an NPC a few gifts and then ask them, and you can jump their bones is the route that Bioware take. There's no attempt to actually develop those systems to actively simulate having a relationship with someone. They should agree or disagree with your decisions, you relationship should be placed at risk if you consistently displease them, your relationship should impact your standing with other characters, etc.

    The only game I've played that actively attempted to make you develop a relationship with a character was Grand Theft Auto IV.
    Edited by 1 at 15/02/12 @ 01:22

  • Harmonica #121 2 days ago

    @verynaughtyboy "masturbating losers"

    Yes, heaven forbid anyone masturbate. Losers, the lot of them.

    Sorry, you're not fooling anyone.

    Your post is like a tiny simulacrum of mens mag publishing through the 90s - yay naked Scarlett, real flesh for (most) men, in a sex scene, in a film; boo sad masturbating losers and their clueless desires.

    ...exactly the front that the likes of FHM tried to spin until the abundance of porn on the internet completely massacred their sales figures. Who'd have thunk it: nobody gave a shit about their twat-about-town metro articles, they were just wankers all along. Hence the appearance of ZOO and the like (within a downmarket wrapper, of course) to desperately grab up lost 'readers'.

    The only sad thing is your Victorian-era hysteria.

  • darkmorgado #122 2 days ago

    @Harmonica

    Magazines like FHM and Zoo should really be on the top shelf. Thinly-veiled soft porn trying to masquerading as "lifestyle" publications.

  • Harmonica #123 2 days ago

    edit: @darkmorgado

    They are both tripe, and pretty harmful tripe (in their completely heinous sexual ethics, rather than actual porn content), but I don't really agree with the top shelf taboo. Another discussion altogether, perhaps, but if they were ever restricted to a top shelf I hope it would be for their lack of merit as publications and so on, rather than the naked ladies.

    -
    RE: previous few posts, not buying the line about portrayal of sex being ineffectual due to lack of emotional clout.

    Emotion is way more cognitive and considered and takes time to accrue, sex can have the bare minimum of emotional backing but fundamentally it is always going to be underpinned by lust and simple animal attraction.

    Goes back to what you want your sex portrayal for, if you accept that using it as a narrative device is laughable (dishonest), then really, what else reason to include it than to satisfy the lusty audience?
    Edited by 3 at 15/02/12 @ 01:47

  • HeNiCiDe1988 #124 2 days ago

    ahha it is a funny article but you completely missed a huge aspect though which is japan. Japan have a got a large market for sex games and sex simulators and date stuff, they are actually probably far more ahead of western developers in dealing with sex. I think the big one is a studio called illusion and then you have ero-games in japan that are interactive and have multiple paths, and some of the ero games actually do a relationship kinda mature, I think if your gonna talk about sex in videos games you need to look into japan

  • darkmorgado #125 2 days ago

    @HeNiCiDe1988

    A lot of those games though are pretty sexist. They might encourage you to "get to know a girl", but they will depict those girls in tight or minimal clothing, provocative poses, and portray them as having rather patronising hobbies like "cooking", or other traditional "girly" hobbies that chime with 1950s values.

    And then you have things like Battle Raper.

    They might have a greater market for sexual content, but whether that content is mature or responsible is another debate entirely.

  • ctankep #126 2 days ago

    @Eldritch


    Ha -ha awesome. I remember "Stroker" and a slew of interesting adult games from the 8-bit era. Paradoxically I think they dealt with the idea of sex in a more honest manner than all this faux -fucking we get in Mass Effect and so on. Maybe it was because I was young as well, but they were a whole lot more exciting too.

    Melbourne House / Phil Mitchell's "Penetrator" mentioned in the article was also the very first game that your humble narrator ever got as a wee lad on the Dick Smith System-80 replete with wood panelling. Awesome game, though despite the raunchy moniker had more to do with blasting lasers than creampies.

    -


    I also remember dad would take us to the local high school each month where computing enthusiasts would hook up. Usually it was a bunch of middle aged dudes w/ high speed tape to tape recorders and a pocket knife stuck in between the REC / FFWD buttons to copy games.!

    It was through this that my brothers and I got our first taste of the Scott Adams adventures, and also a weird adult game called "Interlude". Looking back, I guess it was quite progressive for it's time and credit to Syntonic Software for having the vision to make it.

    There was always something illicit & enticing about seeing this game in the local electronics store packaged in a plastic ziplock bag and with it's powder blue photocopied manual.


    "Interlude" Newspaper Review [ 1980 ]
    http://j.mp/zxErGn

    -


    I think the fact that it was text -based just made it all the more interesting when you were a sub -teen and had no idea of what real sex was like beyond seeing a few dirty pictures. Makes me think that maybe IF at the moment is the best fit for a game involving sexuality as so much of the interaction happens in the players mind. That is if we can get away from the Piers Anthony school of overtly fantastic unicorn -fucking and look at relationships on a level more resonant of our own experiences.

    "Leather Goddesses of Phobos" was great too though more in a comedic vein, though it proved early on that you could make games sexy and appeal to adults without going the brown paper bag route. It begs a wider argument of what defines an adult anyway, and how the hell did we decide that 18+ was a sensible age to allow exposure to sex and porn.

    -


    Because from where I see it -- a lot of pornography is about reducing what's essentially human with all it's imperfections and foibles into something smooth and child -like. There's just so much which is about stereo -types and maybe that's already hardwired into our heads as far as what's arousing and what not. Not to mention the kind of obsessive fetish about removing blemishes and traces of humanity.

    Porn functions by simplifying and becoming something akin to how our desire sees the world. A distillation of everything that we've accumulated and understand as "attractive" or even notions of beauty and power. It's connected to all this other stuff though and that's where it gets interesting.!


    -- Chuan

  • darkmorgado #127 2 days ago

    @Harmonica

    I agree that sex can also be fleeting and simply a spur of the moment thing. My objection is when it takes little effort to get someone into bed in a game (Mass Effect, Old Republic springs to mind), and then the NPC concerned slavishly devotes their entire life to you. So from the NPC point of view, the viewpoint is that you can simply "buy" affection from someone with very little work or investment. That in itself is rather demeaning, as relationships take work and the idea that all it takes to get someone to love you is to give them a couple of gifts and then bone them senseless undermines the whole concept of relationships. Sex is cheap, relationships aren't. Unfortunately, relationships in most games are simply treated as routes to get someone into bed, as opposed to actually attempting to develop deeper bonds between characters which then have additional ramifications based on player choice.

    I have no problem with making sex easy to obtain in a game, as long as it is treated as such, and the NPCs in question are portrayed as just wanting a "friends with benefits" situation. What I have a problem with is easy sex = instant slavish devotion without question no matter how you treat them, which does then become objectification, and can be accused of perpetuating sexist stereotypes/ demeaning the importance of balanced relationships (whether intentional or not).

  • Rens11 #128 2 days ago

    I think they're forgetting that custers revenge nailed real sex

  • ctankep #129 2 days ago

    @Harmonica @darkmorgado

    "Emotion is way more cognitive and considered and takes time to accrue, sex can have the bare minimum of emotional backing but fundamentally it is always going to be underpinned by lust and simple animal attraction."


    ^


    True to a point -- but I'd say that even what we call animal attraction has psychological / cultural underpinnings that are complex and worth exploring in such a visual medium. Perhaps it's a way our society re -enforces certain evolutionary traits such as a high forehead, a nice head of hair or the way somebody moves.

    Nonetheless, we get hammered with this stuff from the media as we grow up and become more sexualised. All of this experience is hard to separate: but what comes from our own primary experiences and what comes from external influences? I'd say that as far sex goes it's a far messier and complicated IRL than gets represented in films or other popular culture.

    -


    That attraction is also fraught with a sense of power and anxiety which is an interesting headspace. I dare say the gameplay in Artworxs' "Strip Poker" games do a more brutally honest representation of the push, pull and uncertainty of fleeting sexual attraction than any conversation tree can superficially muster. I guess it's about finding the gameplay which complements the situtation and whether players can correlate this to their own experiences.

    That's pretty much how film works -- and surprising how a largely non -interactive medium can move and deeply affect our internal dialogues about the world. At the moment, sex in games seems so uncannily plastic even when it's simply about seduction. Much of it just doesn't ring true. Perhaps something like "Chat Roulette" could be considered the best sex game of recent years because despite the crudeness of it there's real emotional exchange going on.


    -


    As an aside:

    Laurie Anderson's documentary on beauty is a great watch and goes on about the "Fibonacci mask". That if you measure the ratio of eyes and mouth on any popular celebrity's face that it almost always corresponds to 1 : 1.618. So maybe notions of beauty are perhaps hard -wired into the brain's seeing systems. Typically we understand lust and desire as being "romantic" or highly personal, belonging to the subjective viewer but how much is me / and how much the robot?


    -- Chuan
    Edited by 1 at 15/02/12 @ 03:36

  • ZizouFC #130 2 days ago

    Sepe's Cumshot with Move/Kinect support please.

  • AnotherIdiot #131 2 days ago

    Its about the freedom to express things in a game as they would be in the real world, the sexual motivations of a character. In call of duty you play online where you can kill others, imagine if you could rape them aswell, this would be more accurate in terms of a military operation. Developers should be allowed to express things as they are and not always present an alternate reality.

  • JeedyJay #132 1 day ago

    The sex scenes in Mass Effect 1 were decent and rather tasteful... and Fox News flipped the hell out. Then Dragon Age: Origins gave us hilariously awful Skinemax With Bolt-On Undies sequences, and compensated by cranking up the adolescent sex humor. No morality panic in sight.

    Two steps forward, one step back...

  • verynaughtyboy #133 1 day ago

    @Harmonica

    I didn't say that anyone who masturbates is a loser, I said that gamers wanting sex in games feed a view of them being masturbating losers. I assumed that anyone who read it would understand my reference to the misconception that gamers are socially ill equipped and their only sexual activity is soley self inflicted. Your pseudo-intellectual post doesn't address what I originally said.

    As for 'Victorian hysteria', bit of a sweeping statement don't you think? As it so happens, some of my morals would be considered Victorian, or even older, but the only hysteria I observed was in your reply. Talk about jumping in with both feet!

  • CrispyXUK #134 1 day ago

    Because it's a stupid idea.

  • FortysixterUK #135 1 day ago

    I want to play a game that's fun or has a good story ( preferably both).
    I don't want aimless, pointless V-sex.
    Tell the devs now, we all get REAL sex in real life, so just make a good game please.
    Same with films and tv shows, just try writing something interesting instead of falling back on a dull sex scene. If you want to watch sex, watch a porno.

  • flamingdog #136 1 day ago

    alternative, cruder comment: computer games are for children.

  • flamingdog #137 1 day ago

    you seem to be saying that in order to incorporate sex in a mature way, games should copy films. and you trace a line of evolution from the equivalent of soft porn to the equivalent of the mid-1990s erotic thriller (which is what that 'catherine' thing sounds like). is that the best we can do?

    and for all your strange revulsion towards virtual sex villa 3d or whatever, at least those sort of things actually make a game out of sex, the act itself, rather than a hamfisted portrayal of some nerd's idea of intimacy and emotion. why act skeeved out by pornographic games? you don't have to play them

  • flamingdog #138 1 day ago

    by the way i am definitely a masturbating loser but i also get mad laid so go figure

  • Bartacus #139 1 day ago

    Sex is not a video-game subject no one wants to see cartoon sex, unless they can film the sex scenes & insert them as part of a story it's not really sex is it; it's just childish smut.

  • Peregrin #140 1 day ago

    It took a long time for Hollywood to become comfortable with sex in mainstream films. Games are merely going through the same process, in a dislocated timeline.

  • Bullet_Tunnel #141 1 day ago

    i played mgs hd till 9pm last night, then switched it off and had real sex with a real 29 yr old woman, and do most nights... if shes not around there are plenty of vids of lannie barbie, abella anderson ect on the net... games dont need sex in them, and as much of a fan of sex i am, i think it would cheapen games to include it-unless as an
    "optional extra"

  • ReapingAngel #142 1 day ago

    The part about Juri made me LOL!

    But have to say, all that hype about Mass Effect really made me cringe. Sex is shown in TV series, yet a game gets all the abuse in the whole world. I think Fox news overreacted, considering some of the shows Fox channels air feature some mainstream scenes (The Simpsons movie showed Bart's jewels, where was Fox at that time. But oh yeah, its animated and the Simpsons are more popular among general media than Mass Effect). I think people need to lay off a bit when it comes to sex. The scenes in Heavy Rain were well realised and fit the tone of the game, and thats a perfect example of a dev realising their options and incorporating it in their game.

    I think Catherine should be a big hit. Not because its sexy, but because it raises real life questions that are found in societies and lets the gamer answer them.

  • DraftPickle #143 1 day ago

    It's difficult to say this with out sounding like a right wing nut, but I genuinely think alot of the problems with games and what they can and can't tackle is down to getting games to their intended market.
    Its common knowledge that games end up in the hands of those who shouldn't have them , take a film like SEVEN covers some gnarly shit, but its an 18 and the film industry is pretty adept at making sure at least 18 don't get to 13 year olds in huge numbers. If you had a game covering the same topics right wing America would have a stroke, because the games industry hasn't got tight (whaaay sex reference) on age control (whaaay paedo reference).
    Last point also this age problems stems from curiosity, so why here (UK)is the age of consent for sex 16 but anything with anything resembling fun bits normally put down as an 18?

  • RGeefe #144 1 day ago

    I flat out refuse to believe Tiffany Widdersham's assertion that 99% of people say they're against pornography. such a broad generalisation is insulting.

  • RGeefe #145 1 day ago

    I'd also be intrigued as to whether games will ever get to the stage where they can put something out that equals a movie like Shame (which has had ZERO detriment to Michael Fassbender or Carey Mulligan's respective careers).

    Personally, I think the better route would be to try and emulate 500 Days of Summer - give gamers a reflection of their modern relationships. Shockingly, I feel like Uncharted is one of the best examples of this. The interactions between Drake and Elena/ Chloe were pretty good, given the circumstances. There was no cringe moments at all and it felt natural. They poked fun at the misogyny of Bond/ Indiana Jones by giving the women a bit of backbone while also giving Nate the benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't sleep around - he's flirty but not a cheater.

    Anyone can make some digiboobs and I would generally prefer to keep them out of games. I don't like seeing it shoehorned in to movies (countless slashers, teen movies) and I don't like it being shoehorned into games. Get the EMOTIONS right first. I think ME2 completely dropped the ball one this one. Without getting into spoilers - I had my sex scene appear right before the end and it would have been nice to see them reflect on the nature of it ("we might die soon and I don't want to go without having a decent knob-sesh beforehand";).

  • CQC #146 1 day ago

    GTA SA Ver PC can do xD

    Like this..

    http://images2 .wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100312160134/dexter/sk/images/e/e6 /GTA-sex_140_201683m.jpg

    That was very hot man !

  • drhickman1983 #147 1 day ago

    Reading the newer comments, it occured to me that in the media (the wider media, not just games) there does seem to be a disparity between the act of sex and the emotions and relationships that surround it.

    Rgeefe above me highlights 500 Days of Summer as being a film whose relationships between characters should be something games emulate. 500 Days... is a good film, and does a good portrayal of relationships. But contained no explicit sex.

    Graphic sex really isn't needed in films and games. As I mentioned in my earlier post, sex scenes tend to be titillation and nothing more (and again, there's nothing wrong with that). Sex is an important part of relationships and life, but in some ways it's the simplest aspect of relationships. It's in the minutiae that orbit around fornication where it gets complicated. By focusing on the act of sex, a film can essentially brush the surrounding details under the carpet.

    Games (and indeed more films) should perhaps attempt to replicate that orbiting minutiae, where it would be appropriate. There's space for this kind of interation in RPGs, where relationships are grossly simplified. Although, given that games thrive on simplifying real things would anybody really want to play a game where relations can get as complex as realy life?

    Games probably shouldn't bother with explicit sex. If nothing else, games lack the ability to titillate like films, and as we get deeper into the uncanny valley I'm not sure things will get much better for a while.

  • Harmonica #148 1 day ago

    @verynaughtyboy You obviously wanted to distance yourself from the idea that sex in games could be an acceptable thing, even an exciting thing.

    You absolutely didn't make a distinction between your view (?) that gamers are misconstrued as losers, and the idea that masturbating to virtual sex is a loser-activity. (Diffentiating between filmed reality and computer graphics, or any other kind of imagery, might be more difficult than you think. They are both fradulent, and trying to convince you otherwise. ScarJo is not standing inside your TV when you watch a DVD.)

    My post was about the clumsy contradiction of lads mags, they represent as classy, when in fact they are providing exactly the same thing, something sexy and a turn-on. Not dissimilar at all to you arbitrarily mentioning Scarlett Johansson in sexy films as cool but games doing the same thing as unthinkable, pointless, whatever. It's double standards.
    Edited by 1 at 15/02/12 @ 20:23

  • jonsaan #149 1 day ago

    Good article. And thank you for not mention DOA. At all.

  • Harmonica #150 1 day ago

    @ctankep Interesting about how much of sex is nature and how much nurture. A debate for the ages we will probably never pin down. And true, there are societal politics and subtexts at play in the sexual arena (and a lot of the fun is messing around with them), but I still think that fictional workings of sex are thoroughly over-worked for story purposes, and that kind of undermines their potency.

    "Laurie Anderson's documentary on beauty is a great watch and goes on about the "Fibonacci mask"."

    Does this talk at all about the 'star system'? The process that sees people 'make it', rise to fame and glory, etc, whilst others equally talented fall by the wayside. Off hand I would probably say that popular beauty, if it usually conforms to a ratio, possibly only does so because these idealised facial forms have been drummed into the systems that promote actresses, singers, etc to success.

    ""Leather Goddesses of Phobos" was great too though more in a comedic vein, though it proved early on that you could make games sexy and appeal to adults without going the brown paper bag route."

    A brilliant game, holds up well and should be played by anyone with an interest in games and storytelling. Enjoyed you talking about ye olde world of computer games trading - I arrived to games a while after that (no tapes!), but the whole ad-hoc marketplace and games conventions were alive and well. Off topic point: crazy to think about how games were sold in that era, with the local games hobbyist stores and maybe a corner inside of computer/electrical distribution outlets (if you were lucky!).

  • Harmonica #151 24 hours ago

    @darkmorgado "Sex is cheap, relationships aren't."

    Agree with this and the rest of your post. Maybe then then the problem is a lack of distinction between the two (especially in games as you say - and the article here is dissing sex for the sake of it in sex games as second-rate, but those clearly do make a distinction). But then, I think this is a problem still widespread in society. Sex outside of relationships is still taboo and considered largely unrelated and illicit by comparison. A religious hangover, of course.

    Sometimes I think sex is sex (masturbation), no matter the context. Other times it's nice to fall back on romanticism.

    You're not alone in bemoaning videogames relationships. It's a completely valid point. I kind of like the games that don't make a big issue out of it, like the subtle relationship going on between Gordon and Alyx in Half-Life 2/episodes. There's not really much too it, it's kind of intangible. Maybe there's a hint of attraction, maybe it's just respect, or mucking in together to fight the alien scum with your backs to the wall. There's looks exchanged and the odd dialogue if you talk (yeah, press E). Of course, the Freeman never speaks! So how can you presume anything (it's crazy wish fulfillment fantasy by the player - me - I know!). But anyway, I like the fact that it's not played for tittilation or sexual themes or anything. Alyx tags along for whatever reason and there's a bond which grows through the game. Imply what you will. Other games like Heavy Rain also great, and more concrete.

    There are some IF games that nail social interaction. I never tire of hearing people's responses to the interplay between [the player] and Galatea, in Emily Short's 'Galatea', for example. What's going on there? Maybe not long enough to call a relationship but there's some interchange, if that's possible.

    But yes, I do think we need games centered on relationships. I don't think it would be boring or amount to tedious reflection of real-life. We have relationships and caring for people in games (you could write paeans about the love between players and their charges in, say, Football Manager, X-COM or Dwarf Fortress!), but when romance and sex gets involved, there is a massive drop out in depth, quality of writing and honesty, and so on.
    Edited by 2 at 15/02/12 @ 20:27

  • EezerGoode #152 21 hours ago

    @bikmate the game you are thinking of is Bomb'X. Just Google it as I am not prepared to drop a link to its pixel filth!

  • Gel214th #153 19 hours ago

    The lack of sex in Games is a United States phenomenon, as with television and movies.

    There is a lot of sex on general television in Latin America, and in Europe there isn't any hangups over it. I recall Fahrenheit which removed the sexual minigame for the US market. Whether it was a good mini-game or not, it added something to the character development and an attachment to the relationship in the story. It made sense.

    Games that are developed by studios that are not US based also have shown explicit sexual acts.

    Witcher, Witcher 2 and Gothic come to mind as RPGs that had sexual cutscenes that showed nudity.

    Sex as part of the story should really be a natural part of most adult stories, as it is a natural part of most adult intimate relationships.

    I think if Videogames are made for Adults (Rated M, 18+ whatever) and they are Art, then they need to start expanding their storylines and the situations they portray - Which includes Sex.

    What serious artform does not describe, portray and dramatise sex in some way?

  • lostmilton #154 15 hours ago

    @stryker1121 Any other cheap stereotypes to share?

  • PlugMonkey #155 12 hours ago

    Why can't movies do sex?

    Seriously, what percentage of movie sex scenes that you have seen seemed tacked on and exploitative? Somewhere over 99%? It's generally just an excuse to get some tits on the screen.

    You can't simulate the experience, so it has no gameplay value, and unless you're specifically exploring relationships and sex as a theme, then it also has no narrative worth.

    If you're just shoehorning in some rutting for titillation's sake, the result is going to be as cringingly awful as every 80s action movie that tried to do the same thing.

  • PlugMonkey #156 12 hours ago

    @Gel214th
    I recall Fahrenheit which removed the sexual minigame for the US market. Whether it was a good mini-game or not, it added something to the character development and an attachment to the relationship in the story. It made sense.
    Really? I thought it was probably the worst sex scene I'd ever witnessed in any medium.

    And not only because one of the protagonists was dead.

  • Cobalt_Jackal #157 12 hours ago

    Why can't games do sex?... Well they can *looks to Japan*, I agree with the other posters, who say the author doesn't bring up Japan. In many ways they are ahead of Western devs with reguards to the handling/approach to relationships/sex (sure its not perfect, there are many faults at times, but its far better than the sorry state of affairs in many Western games with reguards to realistic relationships/sex).

    Anyway, I mean i play alot of J Yaoi games (and they feature lots of hardcore gaysex, which.. yes i get off too ;) ). But they also (importantly) have relitively mature approaches to relationships/love (you have multiple paths and decisions to make before the sex. You have to get the know the other characters in a realistic way etc)... its this which Western Devs can't seem to do IMO.

    Then there's also the fact that here in the West (when i say West im mainly referring to the US and to a lesser extent the UK as well), people in general view seemingly anything sex related in this silly puritanical perspective. You see the Japanese don't have all the religious, prudish baggage that acompanys anything sex related like in the West (againly mainly the US & to a lesser extent UK too). They are not reactionary and don't have all the hang ups that we have in the West when it comes to sex. Their far more open about sex/accepting of peoples sexual fetishes/kinks (and i guess you could in general lump sex games in there), but sadly thats unlike the West, unfortunately were not quite there yet.

    But i've hope that in time as gaming as a medium matures (remember the games industry is still young when compared to likes of film and books), but i have hope that oneday will be able to approach/deal with Sex (and that includes the(sadly), often overlooked and ignored homosexual sex/relationships as well), with maturity and in a realistic way.

    ^_^
    Edited by 5 at 16/02/12 @ 08:51

  • RoOhDaMite #158 12 hours ago

    I think the PSVita with its front and rear touchpads and AR capabilities is suitable for porn-games. Just lay a big AR-Card on your bed and let your program teach you the camasutra. You could watch a couple or interact with them through voicerecognition and touch controls. Make it glasses free 3D as well.

    Best porn experience ever. If that's what you're after :rolleyes:

  • ctankep #159 11 hours ago

    @Harmonica

    Unfortunately I can't seem to find any trace of that documentary on the We -tubes, but IIRC it mainly focused on deconstructing 'classic' notions of beauty following the research done by the plastic surgeon Dr Stephen Marquardt. Ho hum. Curiously, the "Fibonacci Mask" fits faces from antiquity as well other cultures so it might be something deeper than just social reflection?





    I really need to read some of Bataille's writings on sexuality as well to provide a counter -point. He has some interesting and darker ideas on human nature to say the least. "Story of the Eye" is just phenomenal and may be the literary equivalent of "Ico" in that there's a kind of lightness to it -- but before you know it you're in a vortex of arms, legs, eggs and madness.

    -


    Games as a narrative format would seem ideally matched for storytelling in a more oblique or surreal manner. And in ways what I've seen of "Catherine" attempts to do just that. However, finding a way to represent such feelings or conflict through meaningful actions instead of exposition seems to be the most difficult thing -- given that most gameplay has no congruence to the things we want to express.

    We also need to get away from this Cartesian sensibility of expecting all games to have a measured, and linear progression where everything is laid bare. I think it's much more interesting in a Lynch -ian way to have the space to contemplate and have things bounce off your own ideologies instead. Only then can the pleasures of the journey come to the fore.

    -


    Here's something interesting connecting masturbation and consciousness in an evolutionary sense. The sticky white stuff of the imagination. No doubt it'd be interesting to get some female opinions on all of this.!





    Cheers,


    -- Chuan
    Edited by 1 at 16/02/12 @ 08:49

  • Cobalt_Jackal #160 10 hours ago

    @darkmorgado
    "Sex isn't purely limited to heterosexuality, you know. I know a lot of people become very vocal about any attempt to even recognise homosexual relationships (some of the posts on the Old Republic forums about the impending addition same-sex relationships are pretty disgusting), but the fact is that, even with the incredibly limited attempts to address relationships in games, within that narrow sphere it is almost exclusively male-on-female, or occasionaly female-on-female to titilate a particular immature audience".


    I agree with you 100%. I mean its like Gay gamers (or gaymers if you will XD), don't exist in the minds of devs and more importantly publishers. Were ignored :(. And as you said many hetero gamers themselves switch from being tolerant and accepting, open minded individuals to being seemingly intolerant and nasty narrow-minded homophobes as soon homosexual relationships/sex are brought up. Its saddening to see many hetero gamers behave like this and espouse such horrible views.

    Maybe in time, the games industry (and the at times homophobic hetero gamers), both will hopefully grow up and relise that Homosexual gamers have a voice and that were gamers too... gamers who should be recognised and who'd enjoy having deep virtual relationships with characters of the same sex, (it might take some time, but i belive it'll happen eventually).

    I live in hope ^__^
    Edited by 2 at 16/02/12 @ 10:18

  • Cobalt_Jackal #161 9 hours ago

    @Osahi I played "Sepe's Cumshot" till completion (infact i've played many "games" like that actually, both human & also furry type ones as well). But I digress, as I was saying with reguards to Sepe's Cumshot....

    I played till completion and wow, just wow... lets just say Sepe is very well endowed... Mmmmmm, he has a beautiful manhood indeed ;) XDD.
    Edited by 2 at 16/02/12 @ 12:57

  • RoOhDaMite #162 4 hours ago

    Why would I want a sex simulator, a toilet simulator or an eating simulator?

    You really shouldn't be concerned about the "input" when "doing it".
    Sex is at its best when it "just happens" and you really lose yourself in the act. Porn is an attempt to make a commercial product, a sport, a competition out of it and that really is not what making love is about. It's about trust, respect, honesty. Privacy. A bond. Something that connects two persons. Not something you consume like a hamburger in between an advertisement break. It is a homecooked meal made with love and well selected ingredients. Turning Sex into a gamemechanic is against its very nature - a perversion.
    I feel the same way about fatalities in violent videogames.

    That said, I think the way Sex is handled in "The Witcher" or "Catherine" is the way to go.
    Edited by 8 at 16/02/12 @ 18:04

  • Harmonica #163 28 minutes ago

    @RoOhDaMite You must have seen a lot of terrible porn. It's not all like that. The best of it is progressive, egalitarian and even heartfelt, humourous, or uplifting (so to speak). Even so, Catherine or The Witcher are as much commercial products.
    Edited by 1 at 16/02/12 @ 19:51

  • BuckEntropy #164 25 minutes ago

    As this thread gets longer *snigger* something really comes *heheh* across. A serious discussion of this subject seems to make the usual army of reactionary types very uncomfortable? It's so peaceful here I'm almost scared. And I want to see a kind of evidence in that, correlating the symptoms of true immaturity... :lol:

    Mostly a lot of good points being made, certainly thought provoking. But while I can understand the general scapegoating of the US (and to a lesser extent the UK, heh) for our lingering puritanical hangups, it's still not as though all the rest of Europe is aligned in it's progressive/liberal/egalitarian attitudes about sex. The very notion of "sexism" carries a proof of how unresolved things actually are: as a catch-all indictment it's an intellectual dead-end regardless, but what the hell does sexist even mean, in a context of explicitly sexual depictions?

    If Japanese sex games - or Hentai more generally - can seem sexist from a western perspective, it's a reflection of their culture being more sexist by contemporary western criteria. But those very criteria are in perpetual flux and discord anyway, in part because of the fallacy of conflating gender equity or fairness, with some strict and literal notion of equality. The central issue being objectification of females, and... we're ostensibly supposed to override at least a few million years of evolution and somehow be attracted to all women equally? And why doesn't that work the other direction?

    I know I'm getting tangential, but it pertains back the issue of the very culture of videogames. Though it is perhaps now trite (and overly simplistic) to say men are more visually oriented, in this considered context it's appropriate. As the hunters more than the gatherers, the male selected for being more attuned to, and exited by the sorts of visual cues that might trigger fight-or-flight emotions. Which is most of what most videogames deliver. And similarly, in terms of assessing the desirability of the opposite sex, the most universal visual cues pertain to health history and fitness for childbearing. So yes, the male has been selected, essentially, for being more superficial.

    Subsequently, and in other words, of course videogames have always been male biased! Yet it's interesting to me that the Japanese have been, nearly from the beginning, more conscious of at least attempting to appeal to mainstream female consumers, even if much of it comes across more provincial. Sexism is a double edged concern (at least), and being rigidly (turgidly?) opposed to it can too easily become it's own kind of tyranny. And in a strange way, the trappings of orthodox heterosexuality have become the one form of kink the PC orthodoxy itself routinely discounts?

    Bioware's efforts seem like very valuable yet naive steps, kind of trying to be all things to all people, and just ending up half-arsed about everything (ahem). JRPGs have of course been doing a more implied sexual tension thing for a long time, and sometimes quit well. Though it generally seems to be about the obtuse (or just douchey) male hero's choice between essentially the virgin or the whore - in one of the highest profile examples quit literally! But I think that sort of depiction of a social competition, simplistic as it is, also appeals to female gamers, who may then identify themselves more with the particular girl, who gets to help the powerful hunky guy be all he can be.

    And again it's really about honesty in the agenda here. With only the rarest of possible exceptions, direct erotica will have no place in any attempt at a genuinely intellectual exploration of social dynamics. Or as example: to whatever degree Catherine may be judged successful in threading the two, it is by virtue of the wealth of stereotypes and codified erotica that it is simultaneously subverting and exploiting. Just the same with violence, unless it's critically central to the theme, then it can only come across as gratuity.

    So again we're nearly always in the realm (and agenda) of fantasy. If the game is fundamentally a male power fantasy, then bagging the hottest girls also means you're powerful. Or... for a girl, bagging the most powerful boy then means you're hot, right? As a somewhat arbitrary distinction, I think the female agenda could be more about a control fantasy. It's hard *snigger* enough to guess about what might really appeal to the hetero-female (I wont even bother about other alignments) but the general train of thought is fun anyway...

    First, things could be much more erotic yet even less crass (than say ME). From the purely male agenda, as asserted we are visually stimulated, to even obfuscate that is rather inane. So if you're going to include this other fantasy of conquest at all, the most basic payoff is just seeing her naked. A playful striptease, cutting to a scene of her lying in bed only half covered, asking "do you have to go NOW?" Would be just as explicit in narrative terms, far more titillating to (I think) most, and probably less offensive to the arbitrary outrage meters of the censors and uptight media.

    If it's a female (hetero) protagonist, perhaps a POV of him going down on you while making eye contact. And cuts to him making you breakfast the next morning... or doing chores? ;-) I mean either way, the only narrative service required is anything that says: SEX HAPPENED. Anything extra really is just that "gilding", so have fun with it, be shameless, or don't fucking bother.

    As for attempts to integrate a relationship model into the system, as others have already suggested (ctankep at least) the games that have come closest to eliciting the states of drive and anxiety of pursuit - which are all that really matter for the sexual fantasy agenda - mostly do so obliquely. With success dependent on another ruleset entirely. But for the RPG examples, it could mostly be very unwelcome distraction from the main system having to maintain a "relationship" in any way that's challenging. Again you just have to be honest to the agenda.

    It might be a tough call for a traditional hero narrative, but I suppose you could have a sort of organic mini-game of trying to juggle the party-girls, and not get caught while shagging them all secretly? Or for the female agenda, perhaps more like stringing along the besotted reliable guy while actually screwing the arrogant bad boy till you're senseless...:lol:

    Anyway, both echoing what I think some other comments have suggested, and also putting a finer point on the general thrust of my first post... I mostly agree with the article itself, but in this context his alluded to, and never truly qualified, distinction between "sex" and "porn" left me totally unsure of what Stanton is really trying to say. Certainly there is no distinction between porn and erotica worth argument, just some arbitrary line in a vast gray area. It's a visual and kinetic medium, the very recommendation and popularity of videogames is down to a more directly experiential reflection of existence than any previous medium. So again, anything not critical to the system of challenge and interaction is by definition a gratuity, embellishment, including the story itself for the most part. So even being appropriate to the story is a flimsy justification in most cases.