Magical Thinking - "Gospel Truth of Covenant Eschatology"

"Do universalists even believe in the great commission? Yes of course universalists do. As a preterist, I believe there is no need for it as proselytizing because God is all in all. However, sharing the good news is always a good thing." http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/837014-what-must-we-do-saved-5.html#ixzz0ZKrPtILi

Sanctification/Justification was for Pre-AD70 Dispensation

• Sam Frost: "Justification is not a “process”, but sets into motion a “process” that climaxes at the (AD70) parousia."

• "Therefore, I defined sanctification, for us living in the “age to come” now, as that which is entirely complete. In the traditional view, the “age to come” is life in eternity and comes at the end of the world. Surely, “in heaven” and in the “age to come” Christians are not still being sanctified! Here, the traditional view is again, correct. However, since we view the “age to come” as already here, it is perfectly logical to insist that we are not longer, as a Church, as the Wife of the Lamb, no the Bride, are “being sanctified.” ("Justification")

• Sam Frost: "Righteousness, or “justification” was, in some sense, although already obtained, was “about to be” imputed to those who believed. Hope is mixed with the present reality, but the fact remains, Justification is, in some sense, connected to the  (AD70)  Final Judgment."

• Sam Frost: "I conclude that whatever link or connection justification has to the (AD70) Final Judgment, we believe that it has, in its fullness of salvation, been completed. That Christians are not in a relationship, regardless of their believing that they are, with God that “hopes” for righteousness. They are, upon the apprehension of God, and upon that free gift and ability to trust in God, immediately and entirely justified in the fullest measure of that term possible. They are sanctified in the same measure, and are also glorified by their union with the Glorious Body of Christ. This is how God sees the Church today, post (AD70) judgment, and how He relates to the Church today."

Past Tense References in the New Testament Actually Mean AD70?

Mike Bennett - "What you are missing Todd is that when the bible uses past tense, it does not always mean that something has already happened. It means the certainty of an event to happen. This is expained in the Young's Literal Translation. This is nothing new. They clearly did not have the kingdom mentioned until the judgment. The kingdom was the reward. Redemption was drawing near.  This is not a different kingdom and redemption. They did not have it yet."

Jim Hopkins - "Now all of these statements speak as though the events of the cross have completed God's judgment on Satan. But the use of the present tense is consistent with Old Testament prophesy like Isa 9:6 "To us a child is born; to us a child is given." God "calls the things that are not, as though they were." (Rom 4:17). Jesus is also speaking in the same manner of Satan's overthrow. It will all tie in to the end of the age and the judgment of Israel." (The Binding of Satan)

Rusureofit - "I have read that 1 Corinthians was written after 1 Thessalonians but still years before the temple was destroyed. If the dead were raised in AD 70 then how could Paul say "For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either." Isn't this past tense? Or did Paul change his mind from the time he wrote 1 Thessalonians until he wrote 1 Corinthians? Or is he talking about a different resurrection? This one has got me stumped......." planetpreterist.com/news-5559.html#41155

• HyP response by Parker "The better translation might be "if the dead are not to be raised, then Christ has not been raised" or "if the dead don't raise, then Christ has not been raised." The NT theology is CLEAR that Jesus was the first to rise out of Hades and that the rest of the dead were to get out of Hades much later (at AD 70)."

Sam Frost (while HyP): “Preterism, the word I choose to call this doctrine and movement, is a risky venture. Two millennia of Church tradition on the Second Coming of Christ is now seen as an error. This was not a minor theological dispute, either. The Second Coming of Christ was and is a major tenet of Christianity. Most Christians that have come across preterist material immediately scoff at its views. Some have undertaken to wipe it out completely if possible as a damanable heresy. …Preterism is an interpretive system that is locked on the events of 66-70 A.D. It views this as the decisive eschatological event. The Second Coming, Resurrection of the Dead and Great Judgment are seen as having taken place in and around these years. This is a contradiction to Christian orthodoxy and its Creeds, Councils, and all the Reformed, Baptist, and Methodist Standards (and we wonder why preterists are called “heretics”!)”

I say all of this because the majority of the scholarly leg work has already been done by partial preterists. Most full preterists agree with their positions, and are lock step in key with their findings. There is no need to re-create the wheel here. I wouldn't expect to find many full preterist scholarly works using your standard."

Hyper Preterism is a Moving Target... Pay Attention

WHAT CONSENSUS IN "HYPER PRETERISM" ?
 

1. Is the Creation Account in Genesis history or Covenant Allegory?
   
   Starlight "Preterism is an approach to understanding scripture and it is revolutionary. It pits brother against brother and undermines established sacred religious dogmas because it sheds the light of truth upon past interpretive error. That is the real problem that you are looking at. We have been fighting this battle for the past 35 years in preterism and we have historically dealt with only the New Testament side of preterism. Now that Preterism is expanding and we have many that come wanting to continue the exploration in Genesis we are seeing a new battle erupt.   If Tim Martin had never come along and preterist had been allowed to settle into their NT world of Revelation and Matt 24 you would not begin to see the anguish that is going on. No one rocks the Genesis boat would make so many happy, but no some of us are going to push preterism to its conclusions and see for ourselves what it sheds upon Genesis. Genesis is the origins of scripture and it was only a matter of time that some would notice the imagery of Revelation that was deciphered by the preterist hermeneutic included Genesis icons. So there you have it." Planet Pret 7/10/2007 - 06:38
   
   
    

2. Is there Sin in Heaven?
   
   David Green "Essentially, it is saying: the bible does not say we will be sinless in heaven. We can hope that it will be, but there are no guarantees since the bible is not explict on this subject. Secondly, since sam changes his mind every week we can't really answer his question. Third, sure, there are full preterists who believe what sam is suggesting, but this is not true preterism (not consistent). Our version is the true version. And the true version's answer to this problem: the bible does not say we will be sinless in heaven, nor does it say we won't." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/25162
   
   
    

3. Jesus' Return in Glory - Was it an impersonal "Coming in Judgment" or a Personal Appearance?
   
   
   A. Jesus' Return was a "coming in judgment"
   
   Don Preston: "The end of the age was to occur with Christ's coming in judgment in the destruction of Jerusalem. He said that would happen before all that generation passed away, Matthew 16:27-28."
   
   C. Jesus' Return was a Personal Appearance
   
   D. Jesus' Return was a Spiritual Appearance
   
   E. Jesus' Return is in the coming of the Roman Armies
   
   Ed Burley "I do not, nor do any other Pantelists I know, believe that the Lake of Fire is "literal" fire. We believe that it is a metaphor of the destroying Roman Armies, as is found in other scriptures that speak of the destruction of the enemies of the Lord. Fire is a consistent metaphor for God's judgment." http://planetpreterist.com/content/todd-dennis-and-preteristic-idealism
    

4. Jesus' Return in Glory - Was it in AD70, AD66, or BOTH?
   
   A. Jesus' Return in Glory Was in AD70
   
   William Bell -  "What was true of Noah's day was also true regarding the coming of Christ in A.D.70 at the fall of Jerusalem." (A Boat Divided)
   
   "Jesus sounded pretty sure of himself regarding the time. He knew surely that he was coming quickly and that the time was at hand. Now that is just as it was in the days of Noah, general revelation initially, but precise information near the end! As can be observed, the New Testament gives many signs and time statements most of which occur during the final twelve years leading up to A.D.70, depicting the soon approaching parousia." (A Boat Divided)
   
   David Curtis "That which is perfect refers to the maturity of the body at the rapture of the church, which happened at the second coming of Christ, bringing in the New Heavens and New Earth which closed the cannon. This all took place in AD 70, when the Lord returned, bringing in the New Heaven and Earth where we see Him face to face. So the coming again of our Lord for his people brought them to full maturity. " (The Permanence of Love)
   
   "Jesus very clearly tells his disciples that before the temple would be destroyed and before His parousia and the end of the age, the gospel must be preached in all the world. And it was! The temple was destroyed! He arrived in full glory! The Old Covenant age ended! " (The Permanence of Love)
   
   Walt Hibbard - "The Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead from out of Hades, the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb – all would take place literally and coinciding with the Roman army's march, immediately after the tribulation of those days. For then “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. When we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). This was a literal “catching up” of all true believers on earth at that time." (The Expectation and Logic of a Literal Catching Up)
   
   Don Preston - "We are convinced the only construct of Mark 8:38-9:1 and parallels which satisfies the chronological and contextual demands is to understand Jesus predicting his return in full glory to judge all men... This happened in 70 A.D. when he destroyed Jerusalem"  (An Airtight Argument)
   
   Ed Stevens - "Since that generation passed, those events (including His return) must already have happened. Therefore, the passage about not knowing the day or hour no longer applies to us, because the return is a past event. We now know (historically) the day and hour of His return (70 A.D.). We no longer need signs to tell when it is getting close. It is a past event." (That Day and Hour?)
   
   B. Jesus' Return in Glory Was in AD66
   
   Ed Stevens - "The saints were being persecuted. Christ would come and give them relief (AD 66), and at the same time give tribulation to their persecutors. We are talking about two different phases of the tribulation, with Christ’s return in the middle (the first against the saints in AD 62 - 66, and the second against their persecutors in AD 66-70). 
   
   "If the angelic armies literally seen in the clouds at AD 66 were the fulfillment of ‘every eye shall see Him’ (Rev. 1:7) as Sproul has allowed as a possibility, then it was also the fulfillment of Acts 1:11!" (Foreword to the new edition of James Stuart Russell’s The Parousia Bradford, PA: International, p. xii)
   
    A common rebuttal to the futurist "no man knows the day or hour" argument given by full preterists is that, after the fact, you could know. so which is it, AD66 or AD70 !?  Can't be both.  Or is there a THIRD FORM OF COMING (66 through 70, as some claim)  ?   If 'every eye' would see Him, then how could it be unclear in retrospect?
   
   Joseph Vincent - "Again, my entire argument is that the millennial period took place during the time beginning with the ministry of Jesus in or around AD27-30 and concluded at some point prior to the dissolution of the Temple and the Old Covenant Jewish system in or around AD67-70 at the Parousia, or coming of Jesus." (The Millennium)
   
    

5. When Did the Old Covenant Cease in Influence ? 

   A. The Old Covenant / Mosaic Law Passed in AD30
   
   
   B. The Old Covenant / Mosaic Law Passed in AD70
   
   William Bell The sting of [the death] is [the] sin, and the strength of [the] sin is the law." What is the strength of sin? It is "THE LAW." What Law? The Law of Moses. "Moreover the law entered that the offense might about..." (Rom. 5.20). Paul is talking about "the sin" committed by Adam, which brought about "the death" of Adam, which was not physical death. Adam did not die physically the day he ate; however, just as his eyes were opened the day he ate, he died. Adam was not physically blind before he ate of the tree. The statement concerning his "eyes being opened" refers to his awakened conscious resulting from sin (Gen. 3:7) In like manner, his death was not a physical death, but spiritual death or condemnation (Rom. 5:18) which resulted in his being expelled from the Garden and hence cut off from the tree of life. That is "the death" caused by "the sin" of rebellion against God-man seeking to be his own god, guided by his own will and strength. To be cut off, separated from God and the tree of life is "the death." This is why the victory over sin is stated in the present tense in 1 Cor. 15:57. "But thanks be to God, who gives, [literally, is giving] us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. God was at that time in the process of fulfilling the law and setting it aside. The law would no longer have the power to condemn because of the gospel. The time of consummation was near- at hand. Soon, the Lord would come and fulfill all things spoken by the prophets. That is when the law would pass, when sin and Hades (death) would be destroyed. It all came to pass in AD70, when Jesus said, these are the days of vengeance in which all things which are written may be fulfilled (Lk. 21:22,32)." (Review of William Jones "An Examination of the A.D. 70 teaching, p. 73-74)
   
   Jim Hopkins "Not seen in this paper is the meaning of all of this for our generation, but out of this, one should see that the Mosaic Law, the period of types and shadows, extends through the period of the judgment on Israel and did not pass away at the cross. Out of this typical arrangement we should see that the saints now partake of the spiritual arrangement, the Kingdom of God." (The Day Drawing Near)
   
   Don Preston - "I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God. The Good News is, the Trumpet sounded and the final barriers between God and man were removed as God took away the last vestiges of "the law" which held the "power of sin." Man can now be fully justified and live in full assurance that "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)

   Don Preston - "Paul's statement that the bondwoman and her son, representative of the Old Covenant, was yet to be cast out — for persecuting Christians — is prima fascia proof that the Old Testament did not pass at the cross as is traditionally maintained by many. Paul emphatically says the Old Covenant people would be cast out for persecuting Christians, the children of promise (Galatians 4:28-30).  This persecution patently did not occur prior to the cross. Thus, Israel could not have been cut off at the cross." (The Passing of the Elements)
   
   "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)
   
   Michael Sartori - "I would contend that the O/C passed away in AD70 and the N/C commenced in AD70, at the destruction of Jerusalem. " (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)
   
   Kurt Simmons - The Attack on Full Preterism: Which Death Was Defeated in AD70? - "Covenant Eschatology: Inherently Universalistic" The evidence is in: full Preterism is not the culprit linking Preterism to Universalism. The real culprits are false notions regarding the source and nature of mankind’s condemnation and his corporate justification as articulated by some in the Preterist community. Reformed Preterists, like Frost, interpret the “death” cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 20:14 as imputed Adamic guilt. King, on the other hand, equates it with annulment of the Mosaic law. Because these are universal in terms of their asserted condemnation, their destruction works universal justification, apart from faith and obedience. As they unconditionally condemned, so their annulment unconditionally justifies. It is as if the whole race were arraigned before the court of heaven upon an indictment reciting these two laws. The annulment of those laws ipso facto destroys the indictment, as there is no longer any law to base an accusation upon. Hence, all men stand acquitted. In the words of Sam Frost: “There is no law taking into account our sins.”
   
   C. The Old Covenant / Mosaic Law Still Around for the Lost
   
    

6. When Did the New Covenant "Age to Come" Start ?   AD30, AD70, or Both ?
   
   A. The Start of the New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was in AD70
   
   William Bell - "We all know when it fell, in A.D.70! Entrance into the Most Holy is a blessing of the "age to come." Entrance was opened up at the fall of the temple. Therefore, the blessings of the "age to come" were opened up or received at the fall of the temple, specifically ETERNAL LIFE!" (This Present Evil Age)
   
   "How confusing it would have been for Jesus to direct the apostles to the end of the Christian age which is endless and had not yet begun when the very age in which they were living had not reached its consummation!." (When Did Miracles Cease)
   
   "Namely, that when Jesus answered their objection to the resurrection on the grounds that it did not consist in the fleshly dimension of the Jewish aeon (this age) but in the eternal new covenant aeon (age to come) wherein sonship in Christ is equated with resurrection." (The Dead Are Raised)
   
   Ward Fenley - "Also, if we have proven that they were in the last days and the end of the age, and that those last days have come and gone and the Jewish age has come and gone, then in what age are we now? Jesus spoke of two ages: Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come.     Interestingly, the Greek phrase used is aeoni houtay en toe mellonti, literally translated "age about to come." Jesus spoke of the present Jewish age and the ensuing New Covenant age."(The Last Days)
   
   Michael Hill - "Christ's eschaton.. began at the cross and ended in his parousia (presence/coming) at Jerusalem at the end of the 7-year war with Rome.. Thus, true to Jesus' words, that old world ended, the dead were judged, the saved were resurrected, and a whole new realm of grace began" (The Cure for Millennial Madness, p. 3).
   
   Jim Hopkins - "No new age was heralded in at the cross or Pentecost. Their present age was evil (Gal 1:4) and the god of the age was Satan (2 Cor 4:4). Paul said that they stood at the ends of the ages (I Cor 10:11). In Gal 4 Hagar, represented both the Old Covenant and the Jerusalem that "now is" (the Old was still present), and Sarah represented both the New Covenant and the New Jerusalem that was "above" (it was still to come)." (The Use of the Old Testament)
   
   New Earth Christian Studies - "The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)
   
   Don Preston - "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)
   
   "I believe the only scenario that satisfies the teaching of the Old and New Covenants concerning the Dawning of the New Day is when Christ returned in judgment, destroying the Old World of Darkness and Death, II Corinthians 3. This patently was not on Pentecost; the New Testament writers, writing after Pentecost saw the Day as still future, but imminent, I Peter 4:5,7; James 5:7-9. The New Day fully came in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment of the Old World of Darkness and brought the New Day of Salvation. The Day has come." (The Day Has Come)
   
   Michael Sartori - "I would contend that the O/C passed away in AD70 and the N/C commenced in AD70, at the destruction of Jerusalem. " (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)
   
   Larry Siegle - "The complete removal of the Old Covenant system and the establishment of the New Covenant system opened the door for those willing and obedient to enter into salvation “in Christ” and to once again allow the covenantal blessings of heaven to be poured out upon them."  preterist.wordpress.com/2008/11/08/when-paradise-is-restored-at-last/
   
   Ed Stevens - "That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period." (Stevens Responds to Gentry)
   
   "At AD70, Jesus returned and ended the last days of the Jewish nation.  It was God's Great and Glorious Day for the vindication of His people, and an awesome day of judgment and destruction for those who had rejected and crucified Jesus.. The last days of the Jewish nation ended then.  A new age had begun." (What Happened in AD70?, p. 29)
   
   
   B. The New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was initiated in AD30, but not completed Until AD70
   
   William Bell - "The "present time" denotes a "then present" period of transition from the Old to the New Covenant. This did not occur instantaneously at Pentecost (A.D.33) but gradually within the framework of the Cross - A.D.70 time frame" (Illusion of Conclusion)
   
   New Earth Christian Studies - "If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed." (God's Promises Fulfilled) 
   
   Don Preston "We thus have the passing of one world and the anticipation of another. The Old World is the Old Covenant World of Israel that anticipated and predicted the coming of the Messiah — these predictions were part of the elements, the first principles of Christ. The New World, the World to come, was initiated by the passion of Jesus and his work of atonement. The perfection of that atoning work would be his parousia (Hebrews 9:28)." (The Passing of the Elements)
   
   "If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed.  The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)  - So which is it, AD30 or AD70 !?  Can't be both.  Or is there a THIRD AGE ("This Age to Come")? 
   
   
   D. The END of the New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was in AD70
   
   "I don't think the old covenant ceased at the cross of Christ. It was done at the destruction of Jerusalem. After the cross, its began to fade away as we've seen in the book of Hebrews. The new covenant began on the Day of Pentecost which the saints were filled with the holy spirit and Christ was their King. Now, this may be an interesting part, the judgment began at 66 AD when the saints were "raised" and "received" the thrones of kingdom with the parousia of Christ at that time, not 70 AD yet. See Rev. 11:15-19; Matt. 19:28; and Luke 22:30. The old covenant and the new covenant were overlaping during 30-70 AD. It seems that BOTH WERE ENDED at 70 AD. When all things (the judgment, the enemies, the resurrection, the kingdom, the death, the covenants, and the Law) that were subjected to him, he delivered up to his God (Yahweh) the Father which He may be all in all." (http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/showthread.php?p=19198#post19198)
   
    

7. When Was the Church Established ?  AD30, AD70, or Both ?
   
   A. Preston: The Church Was Not Established at Pentecost
   
   Don Preston "A key point of controversy surrounding the Preterist view of eschatology is the contention that the church/kingdom was not fully established on Pentecost but was in a state of incompletion until the Old World was taken out of the way in A.D.70. Every anti-Preterist which this writer has read or heard has made a major issue over this point. It would seem that this issue is one which our opponents believe is dangerous, and evidently they believe it easy to refute. As we shall seek to demonstrate, however, it is not the Preterist that has a problem with this issue, it is the one who holds to the traditional concept of eschatology; and especially in regard to the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. (A Full Grown Baby?)
   
   B. Preston: The Church Was Established at Pentecost
   
   Don Preston "We are not here arguing that the kingdom was not established on Pentecost. We do aver it was established in infancy." (An Airtight Argument)
   
   C. Others
   
   Jim Hopkins - "No new age was heralded in at the cross or Pentecost. Their present age was evil (Gal 1:4) and the god of the age was Satan (2 Cor 4:4). Paul said that they stood at the ends of the ages (I Cor 10:11). In Gal 4 Hagar, represented both the Old Covenant and the Jerusalem that "now is" (the Old was still present), and Sarah represented both the New Covenant and the New Jerusalem that was "above" (it was still to come)." (The Use of the Old Testament)
   
    

8. When Was the Resurrection?  Was it in AD30, Was it in AD70, or Both?
   
   A. AD30: The Resurrection Began in AD30 and Ended in AD70
   
   William Bell - "It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11. ." (Phil. 4:5 Spatiology or Eschatology?)
   
   B. AD70: The Resurrection Was Solely in AD70
   
   Max R. King - "This captivity was symbolic of the captive state of the New Testament saints during the last days of fleshly Israel. They were oppressed and persecuted until the very end of that second Babylon (I Thess. 2:14-16). The fall of Babylon (Israel) and the resurrection of the saints to their homeland, the new heaven and earth, are the basic theme of God's final revelation to man. As with national Israel in ancient Babylon, the release or deliverance of the saints from Israel (Babylon) was the opening of the graves and the bringing forth of all into judgment," (The Spirit of Prophecy, p. 219).
   
   C. AD30 and 70: The Resurrection Was in Progress, But Wasn't Attained Until AD70
   
   William Bell - "In chapter 3, Paul speaks of attaining to the resurrection of the dead, v.11, which equates with being made perfect (telios), and obtaining the prize of the high calling, (Phil.3:12,14; Eph.4:13).  Finally, after another reference to the destruction of Jewish adversaries, whose hope was in their fleshly status and circumcision, (3:1-6); whose righteousness was derived from the works of the law, (v.9); and whose mind was on the earthly things or commonwealth of Jerusalem, its temple and sacrifices, etc., (v.19), Paul looks up with his affections set on the heavenly things above (Col.3:1,2), and declares, "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself" (Phil.3:20,21).  It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11. ." (Phil. 4:5 Spatiology or Eschatology?)
   
    

9. When is the Bodily Resurrection?  AD70 or in the future, after Death?  Or Two Different Resurrections of the Just?
   
   A. The Resurrection is in the Future, After Physical Death (Wouldn't This by HYPO-Preterism?)
   
   Jessie Mills - "Since Christ has already returned, believers now receive their new bodies immediately at death." (Revelation Survey, p. 168)
   
   B. The Resurrection was in AD70
   
   Jessie Mills - "The dead in Hades (sheol) were indeed disembodied  while waiting for Christ's return.  At Christ's return, the dead in the unseen realm of Hades were raised out of Hades and given their new immortal bodies that had been reserved for them." (Revelation Survey, p. 168)
   
    

10. Was the Resurrection Personal or Corporate?
     

    A. The Body that was Resurrection was Corporate

    Dr. Kelly Nelson Birks  "It is hermeneutical error to take an OT quote as a means by which one attempts to bring light to a fresh NT truth. This is made overtly clear when some of us take a passage like Isa. 25:19 or Hosea 6:1-3 which said contexts are using the analogy of resurrection as a means to communicate the nation of Israel's restoration back to the land of promise from Babylonian, Assyrian, and Persian bondage.
    
    I have never been able to understand how any Pret could read these OT texts and ignore the context of those passages that teach the above. But the reverse methodology that I have described is being used I believe to support a preterist prejudice.
    
    The prejudiced was given birth by Max King. No one before Max had ever written or talked about this corporate body view of the resurrection. This "new information" was begun and had it's genesis in the mind of a single, uninspired human being. It is neither legitimate nor glorifying to God to take as one's teacher on so important a subject as this without critical analysis. We have not done this.
    
    The title of my blog "A Star Trek Blog-ology" is a means to illicit an emotional attraction to what I have concluded to be nothing less than a Sci Fi fantasy of the resurrection. The threat that the Borg made to all those that they encountered was "Resistance is futile. We will absorb your individual personalities into our collective"."

    "The corporate body view of the resurrection is wrong." (groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/18233)

    
    Don Preston "The coming of the City, the New Heavens and Earth, and the Tabernacle, the Wedding, are all clearly corporate ideas, and do not speak of individualistic concepts. They are depicted as occurring at a singular, punctiliar point in time, not as every human who accepts Christ dies. There is, LAMENTABLY, an attempt on the part of some to make virtually all Biblical eschatological predictions a referent to personal salvation, Christ’s coming at the point of death, etc.. However, the Day of the Lord is not an individualistic concept, but an objective, corporate reality. YHVH came in judgment of nations, in concrete historical events (cf. Isaiah 19; 34, Ezekiel 29f, etc.). Christ’s coming on the clouds, with the angels, in judgment of Israel for shedding innocent blood (Matthew 23-24), can hardly be applied individualistically. To seek to mitigate this indisputable fact by conceding that it was a providential coming, is, in reality, to abandon the individualistic emphasis. Christ’s coming, so far as I can determine, is never applied to an individual’s death. It is a lamentable theological fabrication to claim otherwise."  eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=622&Itemid=61
     

    
     

11. When the Gospel Start / Cease?
    
    A. Paul's Gospel Didn't Apply to the Pre-AD70 World
    
    William Bell - "If Demas forsook Paul for the present age (alleged Christian age) then in what age did that leave Paul? Not the Jewish age if it passed away at the cross. Not the "age to come," since it is argued to be yet future.  Can we attribute the present age to which Demas apostatized as the age which Christ came to establish? Does not this passage show clearly that the gospel which Paul held firmly till his death (2 Timothy 4:6-8) did not belong to the "present age" of scripture? What a bind we all are in today if loving the Christian age is apostasy." (This Present Evil Age)
    
    B. Paul's Writings Applied ONLY to the Pre-AD70 World
    
    numerous
    
     

12. When Was The Judgment Of "All Men" ?
    
    A. The Judgment of "All Men" was in AD70
    
    William Bell - "Having died in faith, they were yet (about A.D. 64) awaiting the promise of resurrection into the eternal kingdom, (Heb.11:39-40). Although the time was then future, it was not in the far distant future for the city for which they looked was about to come, (Heb.13:14), and was said to be at hand, (Rev.1:1,3; 21:2)." (The Dead Are Raised) 
    
    "Similarly, the resurrection of saints from hades and the change of the "living" as far as we know, was not perceivable to the physical eye. The limits of physical observation do not deny, disprove, or otherwise negate the clear teachings of scripture that the resurrection occurred in 70 A.D., in connection with the fall of Jerusalem " (Challenging Concepts of the Resurrection)
    
    "The time of this judgment equals the time that the patriarchs as well as the saints from the east, west, north and south sit down or inherit the kingdom and corresponds with their resurrection.    Jesus speaks of the gathering of the elect from the four winds during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D." (Illusion of Conclusion)

    David Curtis -" The destruction of Jerusalem evidenced Jesus' coming in the clouds for that historical group of people. But are we to see it only as a coming in judgement on Israel? The full preterist or consistent preterist sees this judgement coming on Israel as the second advent of Christ. Jesus said that he would come in the lifetime of his disciples not just to judge Israel but: he said he would come in the glory of His father, with His angels, to reward every man.    At Christ's coming he was to judge the wicked and reward the righteous, and it was to happen quickly. In the parable of the tares in Matthew 13 we see that the judgement of the wicked and the reward of the righteous happen at the same time." (The Book of Revelation)
    
    Stephen Douglas - "At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God." (undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments)
    
    Max R. King - "This captivity was symbolic of the captive state of the New Testament saints during the last days of fleshly Israel. They were oppressed and persecuted until the very end of that second Babylon (I Thess. 2:14-16). The fall of Babylon (Israel) and the resurrection of the saints to their homeland, the new heaven and earth, are the basic theme of God's final revelation to man. As with national Israel in ancient Babylon, the release or deliverance of the saints from Israel (Babylon) was the opening of the graves and the bringing forth of all into judgment," (The Spirit of Prophecy, p. 219).
    
    Don Preston - "We are convinced the only construct of Mark 8:38-9:1 and parallels which satisfies the chronological and contextual demands is to understand Jesus predicting his return in full glory to judge all men... This happened in 70 A.D. when he destroyed Jerusalem"  (An Airtight Argument)

    Don Preston - "Jesus was to come, with his angels, in the judgment of all men, in the kingdom, in the first century generation (Matthew 16:27-28). But the coming of Christ, with his angels, in judgment of all men, and in the kingdom, was to be the Great White Throne Judgment of Matthew 25:31f (and Revelation 20). Therefore, the Great White Throne Judgment of Matthew 25:31f (and Revelation 20), was to be in the first century generation."
    eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=482&Itemid=90
    
    Don Preston - "It also is important to see that in Luke 21:25-26 Jesus described the coming judgment on Israel in "cosmic" proportions; it would include the whole world, cf. Rev. 3:10. Further, in Matthew 24:29f the Lord said that at the fall of Jerusalem "the sun will be darkened, the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken." Now how much more "universal" of a judgment is needed than that?"
    
    
    
    B. The Judgment of "All Men" was a Process Completed in AD70
    
    William Bell - "It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11.  Clearly, the expectation of the Parousia is in full focus." (Philippians 4:5 - Spatiology or Eschatology)
    
     

13. Who Was Judged ("All Men") in AD70 ?
    
    A. The Living and the Dead Before AD70 Were Judged
    
    William Bell - "In addition, it is not without significance that this gathering of the saints in Matt.24:31, is preceded by the great sound or voice (marginal rendering) of a trumpet. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob heard "this" trumpet. It therefore signaled the universal gathering of saints from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven, (Mk.13:27; 2 Thess.2:1; Heb.10:25), as well as the raising of the patriarchs and prophets from the dead, (Rom.4:16; Heb.11:39-40). This can be none other than the trump of God of 1 Thess.4:16, and the last trump of 1 Cor.15:52. If not, then do the scriptures teach two separate gatherings preceded by two universal trumpets? Why make them all the more confusing (a fact evidenced by the attempt to divide Matthew 24), by placing them both at a coming of Christ, a consummation of an age, a gathering together of the elect in the clouds, and an inheriting of the kingdom, (Matt.8:11-12, 24:3, 30-31, 34; 1 Cor.15:23-24, 50-52; 1 Thess.4:14-17)? It should be readily apparent that the trumpet is one and the same. Equally certain is the fact that Matthew 24 places the sounding of that trumpet at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, before that first-century generation passed, (Matt.24:31,34). " (The Dead Are Raised)
    
    Stephen Douglas - "At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God." (undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments)
    
    B. "Fleshly Israel" Was Judged in AD70
    
    William Bell - "The parable of the tares likewise expressed the difficulty of determining the tares (fleshly Israel) from the wheat (spiritual Israel or sons of God), during the pre-end-of-the-age transition which was consummated in A.D.70, (Mt.13:29,30; 37-40)."  (Illusion of Conclusion)
    
     

14. When Did Supernatural Power of Evil Cease ?  Was it in AD30, Was it in AD70, or Both?
    
    A. Supernatural Powers of Evil Ceased in AD70
    
    William Bell - "It also explains the cessation of demon possession and the supernatural powers of evil spirits which were independent of apostles' hands or disciples' vital signs. The cessation of prophecy and demon possession was linked to the fulfillment of old testament prophecy." (When Did Miracles Cease)
    
    David Curtis - "Their father was the devil, the god of the Jewish age. Satan held them in bondage through the law. They were the physical seed of Abraham but not the true seed of Abraham." (Israel of God)
    
    David Embury (2008) - "Where has your consistent preterism gone? God has already resolved the "death" issue, thus there is no continuance of death post mortem – that's the good news of the Gospel – the death has been dealt its final blow, and as a consequence God has no more enemies. In the Parousia DEATH being the LAST enemy was destroyed, and that pretty much covers ALL enemies – there can be NO enemies beyond this LAST one. Therefore, IF the last enemy to be destroyed was death, then regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks – God has no more enemies – from God's perspective. Having made peace through the blood of Christ's Cross, God HAS reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself. So even if in the ignorance or arrogance of some men's feeble minds they consider themselves as God's enemies, from HIS perspective they are not; even Paul affirms this" (cite)
    
    Jessie Mills - "Satan has already been given his kingdom in the lake of fire, and he no longer walks up and down, to and fro, seeking whom he may devour.  His powers are curtailed.. Christ is now ruler of the this world." (Revelation Survey, p. 256) 
    
    "Nero declared war on Israel Feb 10 AD67. After the judgment of Rev. 20:4 Satan was loosed for a short period and when he accomplished God's will he was cast into the lake of fire.  So at the most 4 months would fulfil those events in the this time frame.  See Luke 21:20-22." (Revelation Survey, p. 163) 
    
    Don Preston - "But Jesus comes in judgment on that apostate city and destroys her. In chapter 20 judgment is set, Satan is cast into the lake of fire; and Jesus takes his glorious bride unto himself! This all happened in 70 AD with the full destruction of the Theocracy of Israel, the persecuting city of Jerusalem, the Old Heavens and Earth. The New Creation is complete--what Satan had succeeded in getting man to forfeit, communion with God and eternal life, is restored. Satan lost — God finished His work." (The Binding of Satan)
    
    B. Supernatural Powers of Evil Ceased in AD30
    
    Dan Harden -“Yes the effect of human sin is sufficient to account for all of the horrible expressions of wickedness that we see in our world today. We find little excuse to blame Satan for the evil about us. Christ has tied up the strong one and plundered his house”
    
    C. Supernatural Powers of Evil Still Exist
    
    Jim Hopkins: "People are unable to accept that the Kingdom of God is present. They think in the physical realm where Satan still exists. But in the spiritual realm Satan has been removed from between man and his maker." 
    
     

15. The Seventieth Week of Daniel - AD30s or AD70s ?
    
    A. The Seventieth Week was in the AD30s.
     
    Jessie Mills - "Therefore we see the balance of the last 'week' beginning when the Holy Spirit is poured out upon the twelve (Pentecost), and the teaching of Christ goes forth." (Daniel's Fulfilled Prophecy, p. 149)
    
    B. The Seventieth Week was in the AD70
    
    Jim Hopkins - "Daniel also saw the abomination of desolation concluding the 70 weeks, which Jesus says takes place at Jerusalem's destruction. Sort of locks that in for us, doesn't it?"
    
     

16. Who Was Raptured in AD70 -  All NT Saints, Some NT Saints or Nobody ?
    
    
    A. All New Testament Saints Raptured in AD70
     

    Walt Hibbard - "The Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead from out of Hades, the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb – all would take place literally and coinciding with the Roman armies march, immediately after the tribulation of those days. For then “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. When we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). This was a literal “catching up” of all true believers on earth at that time." (cite)

    Arthur Melanson - "If Jesus came back in 70 A.D. then what about the Rapture? Well, it took place on schedule just as God, through Paul, said it would.     Saints who were alive at the Lord's return were 'caught up' to meet Jesus in the air. They became, without passing through physical death, residents of the consummated kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. God's restoration plan for man was complete, and physically alive believers were included." (The Rapture)
    
    Ed Stevens: "A rapture easily explains why no Christian after AD 70 mentioned the occurrence of the parousia (they weren't around to document it).  So when a non-rapture preterist asserts that the rapture preterist has a "documentation problem," it leaves three fingers pointing back at him.  The non-rapture preterist has three other events to find documentation for (parousia, resurrection and judgment)." (Silence Demands a Rapture)

     

17. When Do Christians Enter Heaven - At Spiritual Birth or Physical Death ?
    
    
    B.  Christians Enter Heaven at Death
    
    Dan Harden: "..(O)ur spiritual condition is drastically different from those of the pre-Parousial saints, based solely on the fact that our High Priest returned and brought back with Him our completed atonement.  Christ has made us whiter than snow, blameless before the Lord, despite our shortcomings.  What was a promise / deposit for the pre-Parousial saints is a reality for us today -- even while living on Earth.  Our going to Heaven when we die is BECAUSE of these fulfilled promises.  We don't look forward to them being fulfilled in fullness when we die, or else we would never be qualified to make it on our own, for we are unable to do so on our own.  Indeed, if we didn't have glory in fullness already, we couldn't go to Heaven at all, for God cannot abide anything less than perfection.  But our entrance into Heaven is assured because we already have Eternal Life in fullness NOW!" (Response to Hibbard)
    
    Walt Hibbard: "At this point I think it is only fair, open and honest to urge the “heaven now” preterists to return to sanity in their eschatological studies. If they choose not to do so, they are laying themselves wide open for ridicule and laughter from the entire futurist community and many preterists as well – and even worse will do insurmountable damage to the preterist cause, and to the credibility and honor of the Lord Jesus Christ, the very One whom preterists strive to honor in virtue of their adopting the preterist viewpoint! " (Reply to Sam Frost's Analysis)
    
     

18. Are Prophecies being Fulfilled in the New Covenant Age?
    
    A.  All Bible Prophecy Fulfilled in AD70 Means ALL
    
    
    B.  Not so.. there is room in consistent preterism for a view of the future

    • Ed Stevens "If we assume that the preterist position is correct, then what about the prophetic scriptures that have all been fulfilled. "Are they then profitable any more for today?" ... Is this not taking away from Holy Scripture?' The value of Scripture is enhanced even more by its fulfillment. Now we are not just waiting for the consummation and given only a 'pledge' or 'seal' to get us by until the perfect arrives. We have the full and complete state of the kingdom. We live in His presence and eat at His table and commune with Him in His kingdom. The prophetic scriptures describe all these spiritual blessings that are ours now in the kingdom. Those passages are not just hopes and anxious longings. They are reality. They are realized eschatology."
       

    • Samuel Frost - Towards a Fuller Preterism (10/31/2010) "I was going to entitle this series, “Preterism Has No Future”, but decided against it. I think certain forms of what has come to be known as Full Preterism (FP) has no future in terms of surviving outside the internet community. The academic community has all but rejected it"
      
      "This.. is the real deal of what FP teaches: the earth will never, ever, never, ever never never know peace.......WAR IS THE NORM on earth for INFINITY. Folks....this is now unmasked..... "
       

      • Response to Green on Towards a Fuller Preterism (11/3/10) - "Green here asserts that “in accordance with BIBLE PROPHECY” we are still “growing”.  So, let’s think logically here.  If BIBLE PROPHECY is still BEING fulfilled (still growing as the PROPHETS said) beyond A.D. 70, then…..well, you can do the math.

        But, in case you missed that, Green says it again: the Bible “describes” the age to come.  Now, this was the whole point of my paper, was it not.  But, if this is true, then the Bible speaks “beyond” A.D. 70.  And, if it so speaks (prophesies), then what exactly is the problem, Dave?  You have made my point: Bible Prophecy was not “all” fulfilled in A.D. 70!  Q.E.D.  If it “describes” (read, prophesies), then, clearly, all prophecy is not yet fulfilled.  This underscores my point: ongoing FULFILLMENT.  Ask a Covenant Creationist if prophecy is, in any way, shape, or form, “being fulfilled” today.  It is THIS TYPE of FP that I am attacking.  It’s not a straw man." 

        • Green: "Sam believes that the Second Coming and Resurrection of the Dead will be consummated in our future.  Does he not?  If so, then it follows that he is not a full preterist. " // However, Green uses a Similar Method in regards to salvation:  Dave Green: "That salvation was predicted, foreshadowed, and proclaimed in the old testament. It was a salvation that would be fulfilled and realized at the Cross of Christ, and fully consummated at His Presence in the end of the old-covenant age in A.D. 70." (New Covenant Salvation)

    
    Is the Transitional Work of "Christ in You" Denied by the "AD70 Salvation" Myth?

    Sam Frost
    (From Heterodox Confessions of Hyperpreterists, unless noted)

    • "Reformed soteriology must change in order to meet the demand of the Bible truth of Jesus' return. anyone trying to cram a futurist soteriology into a full preterist framework is doomed from the start with such a project.”

    • "We have been saying this for almost 10 years. It's not my fault some are just realizing this like it is some startling revelation! You cannot call yourself "reformed" and somehow, in some strange twisting of Scripture, have progressive sanctification AFTER the Second Coming (meaning 70 A.D.)! Doesn't work. Never will. 20 years of reading systematic theology ... believe me, I've tried. Doesn't work.

    • (2009) “Traditional Calvinism cannot be compatible with Preterism precisely because it is a system built upon an end of history. However, cannot one take the principles of what Augustine and Calvin taught (along with Luther) and rework them so that we can drop what needs to be dropped (like progressive sanctification), and keep what can be kept?"

    • (2009) "My point in all of this was that since Preterism maintains that said “Final Judgment” has taken place, such aspect of justification no longer exists for us believers living in the Age which Has Come." (Final Response to Birks http://thereignofchrist.com/final-response-to-kelly-birks/

    • Birks: Mr. Frost holds to the teaching that since the AD 70 Parousia, sanctification as an ongoing process for the believer has ceased and that all believers are since AD 70, fully conformed to the image of Christ and are without any further need of sanctification. Based on the evidence presented to this court, you were found guilty of this charge."  //  Sam: "So, while found “guilty” as charged (alright, I am guilty here), this is no new thing to me, since I wrote my book at least a year before I ever met Birks." http://thereignofchrist.com/final-response-to-kelly-birks/

    
     

19. When did Salvation Come?  At the Cross?

• Arthur Melanson "Salvation didn’t come at the cross. It didn’t come at Pentecost. It didn’t come at the ascension. According to the pattern of the Old Testament, forgiveness of sins came when the high priest came out from the Presence behind the veil. "

  Hope is something we wait for that we do not yet have. Salvation was still a hope in that day." (The Appearing of the High Priest)

  
   

Vastly Overreaching Conclusions Built Upon Unproven Propositions

• Dave Green: Man was condemned through the cross and the Parousia (Coming of Christ), but it was through the cross and the Parousia that God justified His elect and demonstrated His tender mercy toward His children. He commended His love toward His church at the cross, and it was permanently established and fulfilled at His glorious Presence. [in AD70] When all were dead in sin and there was no one to save, God alone worked mightily and saved his chosen ones out from among the dead. [in AD70] He preserved them till the end [AD70] and was not willing that any of them should perish. He graciously forgave them of all their sin and freely gave to them eternal life in His Kingdom, in the Covenant of His blood." [in AD70] (New Covenant Salvation)
   

• Rich "I too have been thinking about the fact that since "the dead" in 1 Cor. 15 is in reference to Israel, how does that relate to the fact that Paul then brings in Adam. Seems the connection is clear. Adam was the beginning for the people of Israel. The Gentiles are outside this group."
   

• David Embury (2008) "Where has your consistent preterism gone? God has already resolved the "death" issue, thus there is no continuance of death post mortem –that's the good news of the Gospel – the death has been dealt its final blow, and as a consequence God has no more enemies. In the Parousia DEATH being the LAST enemy was destroyed, and that pretty much covers ALL enemies – there can be NO enemies beyond this LAST one. Therefore, IF the last enemy to be destroyed was death, then regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks – God has no more enemies – from God's perspective. Having made peace through the blood of Christ's Cross, God HAS reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself. So even if in the ignorance or arrogance of some men's feeble minds they consider themselves as God's enemies, from HIS perspective they are not; even Paul affirms this" (cite )
   

• Ward Fenley (2008) "Ah, yes. You must be referring to Sam Frost. Sam is a partial preterist, not a preterist. I'm not sure why, but he has grown more and more inconsistent in his hermeneutic. A lot of times this comes from pressure and a non-exegetical, non-covenantal approach to Scripture." (Responding to: "You know, regarding "the cosmological interpretation by so-called preterists" of Genesis creation, I recently heard a self-described preterist posit a future/physical interpretation of Isaiah 65 at a preterist conference. It would not be an overstatement, in my opinion, to say that the view he presented there represents a departure from full preterism.")  (cite)
   

• Seeking Author - "If you believe the scriptures, there was a resurrection of many of the saints of old whose graves burst open when Jesus was crucified and they came out of their graves after the resurrection of Jesus and were seen of many in the city. Jesus is the resurrection and the life. But the above scripture was written after His resurrection, but before A.D. 70. A resurrection around A. D. 70 makes perfectly good sense. This was the end of the Old Covenant and the fulfillment of the promises made to the saints of old as well as the disciples and apostles. All of the apostles except John were dead by A. D. 70."   (Seeking Cite)
   

• Don Preston - "We believe we have shown that in Matthew 24:36, when Jesus said "But of that day and hour knoweth no man," that his reference was to "that day" that would climax "those days" leading up to the final dissolution of the Old Heaven and Earth of Israel at the return of Messiah in 70 AD."  (Those Days - vs - That Day)
   

• Rivers of Eden - "Sound logic would demand that you be able to produce substantial evidence that such is the case, otherwise my simple assertion that only "the houses of Isreal and Judah" were the benefactors of the "new covenant" is the only plausible interpretation of Jeremiah 31:31. Jesus plainly stated that he was "sent ONLY to the lost sheep of ISRAEL" (Matthew 15:24). Are the implications of this text any less clear than those of any of the time statements?" (This view would probably be considered hyper preterism by a large percentage of HyPs)
   

• Larry Siegle "The “new heavens and a new earth” does not imply that every individual living beyond the end of the Old Covenant “age” would be saved, and there is no evidence of any “outer” courtyard that once separated people (Gentiles) from entry into the “holy place” or the “most holy place” of God’s earthly, typical temple in Jerusalem. Now there is only the “most holy place” where God’s people forever dwell together in the presence of God, inside the confines of the New Covenant, as represented by the “holy city” the New Jerusalem."
   

• William Urmy "In verses 30 and 31 of the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew it is said, "And they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet," etc. Now, it cannot be reasonably doubted that these comings are the same, for they are both comings in glory and with the angels, yet in the thirty-fourth verse of the same chapter our Lord solemnly declares: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished." As, therefore, his coming in power and glory was one of "these things," we are forced to the conclusion that he did come in glory within about forty years after the utterance of the sermon on the Mount of Olives, that that coming was a coming to judgment, and that therefore the judgment day came long centuries ago. " (Christ Came Again, p. 313)
   

• Joseph Vincent - "Since it is my belief that the thousand year period is a direct reference to the “generation” to which Jesus predicted all the events of Matthew 23:36 and 24:34, and the same generation in which Jesus began to “bind the strong man” as recorded in Matthew 12:28-29 and Luke 10:17-20, it follows therefore that it must also precede or take place before the events of the great tribulation and the final resurrection and glory of the Saints at the coming of the Lord." (The Millennium)

• David Curtis: (2007) "At the end of the Fourth Gospel Jesus is talking to Peter and tells him what kind of death he would experience. In response to this:  Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His breast at the supper, and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" 21 Peter therefore seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?"    (John 21:20-21 NASB).  Jesus tells Peter how he is going to die and Peter’s response is, “What about Lazarus”? As soon as the topic became death, who did Peter’s mind turn to? Lazarus!  Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!"    (John 21:22 NASB) This is a preteristic verse. Jesus is saying, If I want Lazarus to live until I come what is that to you. Would Jesus say this if His coming was thousands of years away?" The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved: Who Wrote the Fourth Gospel?

THE MOST SERIOUS CONSIDERATIONS
DOES FULL PRETERISM TEACH "A DIFFERENT GOSPEL"? 

"As a preterist, I believe there is no need for it as proselytizing because God is all in all. However, sharing the good news is always a good thing." http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/837014-what-must-we-do-saved-5.html#ixzz0ZKrPtILi

Bryan Lewis (2010) "I am among those Preterist who realize that (HyP) Preterism is absolutely not Orthodox Christianity. It is my opinion, there is no fellowship between the two now, nor has their ever been historically." (Am I a Christian?)
 

Sam Frost: "And, for those Full Preterists out there that are going to cry, yet again, “foul” and “they don’t represent us”, cry again.  This is the overwhelming response I have received.  One “friend” has completely and entirely ignored me, won’t talk to me, won’t interact, answer their phones, nothing.  This is a cult like mentality.  Full Preterism is, in and of itself, just another view of eschatology.  However, certain Full PreterISTS have made it into quite something else: the gospel itself. 

Why Hyper Preterism Teaches a Different Gospel
 

MOST ADMIT THE CHANGES WROUGHT TO ALL AREAS OF DOCTRINE & PRACTICE

• "Did they fulfill the Great Commission? — for their world and for their day, yes they did! But we are living in a different world and a different day, and that world is waiting for some Good News. " (That All May Be Fulfilled, p. 453)

FORMER FULL PRETERISTS SAY THERE IS A CONTRAST WITH HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY

•  Why Hyper Preterism Teaches a Different Gospel (2009) "Firstly, the concept of “salvation” endorsed by Hyper-Preterism is radically different from that which Futurists espouse. Historically, Christians have always believed that salvation involves redemption from the consequences of Adam’s fall. These include moral and physical death as well as indwelling sin. That is, we see the results of Adam’s fall as being not simply moral in nature, but physical and anthropological as well. Paul writes, again and again, that the “entire man” is covered by Christ’s redemptive plan (see 1 Thessalonians 5: 23; Romans 8: 11; 1 Corinthians 6: 13-20; Ephesians 1: 14)."

Todd Dennis

• AD70 Storyline Fundamentally Different From Historical Christianity // By declaring that the New Covenant didn't really come into maturity until AD70 (despite the fact that Christians had already been given access to the holiest of all 40 years prior -- cf. Hebrews 10:19-22)  Hyper Preterism clearly teaches a different gospel message than that originally received from the pen of Inspiration recording Jesus as saying "It is finished" (attended by the tearing of the veil of separation).   To teach that this access into the holiest of all is based on something other than the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is an egregious error.  There are many other examples of AD70 becoming a primary focal point, outshining the glory revealed in the Sacrifice of the Lamb.    However, that is just an example of how the AD70 Storyline is Fundamentally Different from Historical Christianity's Old Rugged Cross.  

  • [Full Preterist Response: "I categorically state that the physical object of the cross, wood and fiber, is not worthy of the love and adoration of Christians."] 

Is the Cross of Jesus Christ Diminished by the "AD70 Salvation" Myth?

Stephen Douglas  "As long as the Old Covenant was kicking, as long as the Temple was standing and the Jewish cultus was active, the old system was functioning mockingly alongside the New Covenant built upon the shed blood of Christ; that’s what AD 70 was about - filling up the new wineskins and effectively bursting the old wineskins with the new wine. The “New World Order” of Christianity was the direct result of the fulfillment and abolition of the Old one." undeception.com/index.php/2008/09/14/first-things-and-last-things

Tim Martin (2007) "After all, the High Priest did more than just shed the blood of the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. He had to go into the Holy of Holies (ascend) and apply the blood as directed in the Law, and then come back out (return) to show the people that his annual work on behalf of the people was complete. The preterist view is notably Hebraic in its view of Christ’s full work of redemption. Christ fulfilled all of the detail in the Law by A.D. 70."

//

"My comment at the end of this article regarding "the old rugged cross" was related to Todd Dennis' closing statement in his article:

"Rather, I pray that all such Bereans will be given the wisdom to understand how far from the received gospel the HyP view truly is. Perhaps as this concept being exposed to them, love for the old rugged cross will inspire a sincerely critical examination of the "salvation in AD70" view."

It should also be noted that the term "the old rugged cross" does not appear in Scripture. It is the title of a modern hymn penned by George Bennard in 1913. For those who will actually examine the hymn, which Todd alluded to first in his article, you will see that the hymn features prominent lyrics based in the doctrines of futurism.

Furthermore, there are no commands in Scripture to have "love for that old rugged cross." However, the Roman Catholic Church does have a long history in venerating "holy" objects as "aids to worship."

I categorically state that the physical object of the cross, wood and fiber, is not worthy of the love and adoration of Christians. Their deepest love should always be reserved for the living person who saved them and the God who is their righteousness." // Tom: "insipid idolatry of a wooden object"
http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=comments&op=showreply&tid=41505&sid=5582&pid=41496&mode=&order=&thold=#41505

[Ironically, it seems that the view which agrees that "the Law didn't end until AD70, and then ended utterly" is the actual insipid idolatry... focusing on natural events, as it does, regarding a wood and stone building (!) to the exclusion of Jesus' abiding minstry as the telos/eschatos of the Law of sin and death.  The comments underscore my original point of AD70 stealing the glory of the cross -- utilizing a doctrine (AD70 Dispensationalism) unknown in the history of Christianity until the advent of Hyper Preterism in the 19th century.   Those who spoke of AD70 prior to then did so with the fall of Jerusalem as solely the effect of the coming of salvation, and not the cause.  cf. Eusebius

Arthur Melanson "Salvation didn’t come at the cross. It didn’t come at Pentecost. It didn’t come at the ascension. According to the pattern of the Old Testament, forgiveness of sins came when the high priest came out from the Presence behind the veil. "

"Hope is something we wait for that we do not yet have. Salvation was still a hope in that day." (The Appearing of the High Priest)

So.. IS FULL PRETERISM JUST A THEOLOGICAL ALTERNATIVE... OR IS IT SOME FORM OF CULT?

Frost "One wonders how, if ever, Full Preterism comes to power how they would treat dissenters! "

"I'll tell you though, this "preterism" has sure tipped me on my head. I wasn't looking for this and it's like I was just going on my merry way, turned a corner then WHAM! Kind of similar to the teaching on election and some other things but I think this one has me reeling the most"  T.L.
 

Dennis M. Swanson "The HP position, as currently construed, is “comprehensive” in that it (whether its adherents realize it or not) has developed a theological construct that affects every aspect of theology and biblical interpretation. So pervasive are the implications of this system and so pernicious are the outcomes that it is not too much to call this movement “proto-cultic,” that is, a potential cult in the making. The implications of HP in terms of both theology and practical Christian living will not lead to the “reformation” envisioned by its adherents; it can only lead to “retrogression,” a movement backwards to the error of Hymenaeus and Philetus, an error Paul roundly condemned as “overthrowing the faith of many” (2 Tim 2:18)" (IPA: Reformation or Retrogression? Pages 57-58)

This may seem like an incendiary question, but it is a legitimate one.  After all, there are such things as dangerous cults, aren't there? 

"Dangerous cults are small splinter groups from mainstream groups which usually base their whole world-view on a single point taken to the extreme.  Sometimes their point is secular, but more often it is theological in nature.  Those within these groups evangelize endlessly over this one point, searching far and wide for single converts to that extreme point.  In the Internet era, that includes email barrages, message board spamming, and the like.   When those evangelists are challenged by those in the mainstream whose beliefs they seek to overthrow, they lash back viciously at those who would otherwise be kindred spirits, considering how close the views are -- apart from that single extreme point.  These types of groups are often prosecuted for their extreme views, but within the group this is seen as persecution, thereby "proving" to them the sanctity of the endeavor - and the threat that they pose to the mainstream.  Instead of seeing critical arguments for their inherently instructive value, they are dismissed as "hate" or "slander" - proving how personally the extreme point is taken by the individuals within the group.    Those who are more forceful and vocally ruthless tend to rise to the top in these groups, with the followers treating their leaders as heroes - the perfect men (or women) to bring about sweeping changes in the mainstream due to their powers of persuasion.   Anyone who is lucky enough to break free of the group is treated with scorn as a traitor, and is assumed to have mental or emotional problems from having done so.   They are quickly forgotten, and the reasons for their departure are rarely discussed, except when utilized as fodder for mockery.   Many of those who remain within the group for a long period find their thought processes changed so greatly that it becomes increasingly difficult for them to interact with the mainstream outside of discussion on their extreme hobby horse points.   No amount of losses --  be it friends, family, churches, husbands, wives, children, or personal peace -- are taken as evidence that some form of disorder has developed."

As familiar as this sounds to full preterism (but by no means all of it, and certainly not across the board on any one point)  I believe this question is worthy of further investigation.   Direct quotes will be placed here which may reflect or deflect from the investigation into whether or not full preterism is a cultic.  I know of full preterists who exhibit none of these characteristics, and so the attempt is in no way to besmirch the individuals within this preterist splinter group.  Just because someone's quote appears below doesn't necessarily mean that they are cultic... just that it serves as a potential bit of evidence in the overall study on the effects of joining the full preterist splinter group.

I must admit, it took me two years of being out of the group before such thoughts even crossed my mind.   But the cruel barrage against those who left the view and - heaven forbid - had anything critical to say about it after leaving has been relentless.   I have honestly never seen anything like it in my life... how quickly people can be seen as bitter enemies for simply talking about how the Holy Spirit has led them in a different direction.   The smears and insults against very sincere people - and the methods employed to silence them - had forced me to rethink the level of danger in joining up with this full preterist splinter group.  Since that time (2006/2007), it has become more and more clear that the isolationism displayed in the full preterist community's general rejection of the Christian Church at large is a strong indicator of cult like fanaticism, if not outright proof.

Comments from Futurists "in the know" (Full Archive Here)

• Eduardo Flores  (2009) "As for Full Preterism, either it is false or it is true. Either Jesus Christ came In A.D. 70 and fulfilled all the prophesies or He hasn’t come yet. My sincere worries about FP are that this view changes the concepts of the major beliefs of Christianity. The Parousia, the Judgment Day, his Second Coming, the relationship of Israel and the Church, the Resurrection, the Body, and many other word-concept complexes are changed. I have seen some differences in the gospel as well."

• Samuel Miller (1841) "When heresy rises in an evangelical body, it is never frank and open. It always begins by skulking, and assuming a disguise. Its advocates, when together, boast of great improvements, and congratulate one another on having gone greatly beyond the "old dead orthodoxy,"? and on having left behind many of its antiquated errors: but when taxed with deviations from the received faith, they complain of the unreasonableness of their accusers, as they "differ from it only in words." This has been the standing course of errorists ever since the apostolic age. They are almost never honest and candid as a party, until they gain strength enough to be sure of some degree of popularity. Thus it was with Arius in the fourth century, with Pelagius in the fifth, with Arminius and his companions in the seventeenth, with Amyraut and his associates in France soon afterwards, and with the Unitarians in Massachusetts, toward the close of the eighteenth and the beginning of the nineteenth centuries. They denied their real tenets, evaded examination or inquiry, declaimed against their accusers as merciless bigots and heresy-hunters, and strove as long as they could to appear to agree with the most orthodox of their neighbours; until the time came when, partly from inability any longer to cover up their sentiments, and partly because they felt strong enough to come out, they at length avowed their real opinions."

• Dr. Kenneth G. Talbot: Position Paper (2009) "This irresistible desire for “validation” has been a “waste of time” and “resources” for a theory that only has presence primarily in ‘virtual reality.

  // "Heretics always point to those doctrines that they have in common with orthodox theology. They do this in order to deflect the attention away from those doctrines that are in complete conflict with ‘historic orthodoxy.’ That is what makes heretics so very dangerous and deceitful in their teachings."

• Mike Sullivan "I have email correspondence as well which states very clearly that he no longer holds to the literal rapture view.  This doesn't mean that either you or me are liars.  My guess is that Walt is going back and forth due to the "its my way or the highway" mentality of Mr. Ed Stevens.  I remember when I first was becoming a FP, I did this back and forth thing for a while.  Some people I told I believed the Second Coming already happened and others I said that I thought it was a view that needed to be considered and when they pressed me if I believed it, I said, "I'm still studying."  (Re: [PretCosmos] Walt Hibbard no longer literal rapturist, 10/30/9)

• Hal: "When I tried to “witness” to a person who I had known for a long time (and was directly responsible for my return to Christiandom), that person did something I didn’t expect. He did an Internet search on my name. In the beginning of my change from dispensationalism (as my friend was) to full-preterism, I signed off my real name in comment from an Internet site. My friend stumbled across this comment, realized that it spoke of a PAST 2nd coming, and then asked me to clarify if that was indeed me who wrote the comment. Since Christians are not supposed to lie, I told him the truth. AND FROM THAT POINT ON, I lost him as an open audience. Since that time I have never responded with my real name." http://preterismdebate.ning.com/profiles/blogs/who-is-hal-the-shortest-blog?id=4171784%3ABlogPost%3A2744&page=3#comments

• Edward J. Hassertt:   1) If full preterism is damnable heresy and no full preterist is a brother in Christ to the futurist  2) Then no one in full preterism is a Christian since no full preterist is a brother in Christ    3) It follows then that the current critics of preterism who were preterist before turning on us, were not Christian then (by their word they could not have been)   4) This means they are recent converts to Christianity    5) As such they should be learning in silence not declaring themselves leaders and teaching others.   If they are right about preterism then they should obey scripture and stop trying to teach others. If instead, they feel they have the ability to teach others, their own behavior disproves their claims about preterists not being Christians!"

  • Dave Green response: “Hi Ed,   Your argument is, of course, unanswerable and devastating.  The ones accusing us of being arrogant are, by the logic of their own words, arrogant. By their own words, they are new converts to Christianity. Yet they’re making themselves into teachers/leaders. Thus according to their own words, they are “novices” who are “lifted up with pride” and fallen “into the condemnation of the devil” (1 Tim. 3:6) –while calling us arrogant, of all things! LOL     Irony of ironies.   Thank you Ed!   Dave" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/19108

"Hyper Preterist Dementia"
Personality Disorder, Extremism, or just Bad Manners?

These days, it has become very common for people to leave full preterism and write about why.   Unfortunately, many of those still caught within the chains of AD70-ism refuse to pay close attention to the testimonies of these - convinced as they are of "the gospel truth of Covenant Eschatology".   Instead of soberly and carefully examining the sincere claims of former hyper prets, a systematic attack on the personality of the individual commences, as though by disqualifying the individual, the testimony is nullified.   Accordingly, in "Palin Derangement Syndrome" fashion, current hyper preterists publicly declare that the individual who has left their view did so because of emotional problems or just downright dishonesty.  In this, they completely refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that there are numerous (yes, numerous) exegetical reasons to abandon that view.   Quotes are here offered to substantiate this claim.    Please allow me to submit my all-time favorite:

Virgil Vaduva: "I do not believe that Todd Dennis is dangerous, but he seems to be motivated by an irrational zeal which is clouding his mind and controls him and all he does. Good people and ideas are judged by their fruits, and so far, the fruits of “preterist idealism” seem to be hate, injustice and elitism. The very fact that a guy uses his personal life to rationalize attacking other people should tell you enough about his theology and his relationship with the Creator so that we can only pray for him to recover and do what’s right in relation to those around him, his family and people he is using to further whatever agenda he has created in his mind. Please either reach out to Todd if you know him, or pray for him so that he is redeemed and healed of his hate and evil plans."     (btw, this quote is three years old, so it not like I'm posting it all this time later out of bitterness or anything.  Virgil is an okay guy, and I certainly feel no hate or evil towards him or any other former colleague.  The bottom line is that full preterism, despite all natural appearances, is just simply WRONG. It is caught in the exact same trap that natural-focused theologies always fall.  Email me for details)

It seems as though those in that circle believe that if a person opposes the full preterist view, then they are given over to hate and that their testimony is consequently not worthy of consideration. The lack of any call for restraint coming from those in the HyP circle of leadership underscores the widespread consent with this type of extremist rhetoric.  

On Sam Frost defining "Hyper Preterism"

• "Sam knows he is loosing credibility among FP/Covenant Eschatology folks really fast, so he is desperately trying to re-define the terms so that we are now "hyper-preterists"---- Selah!  ..Sam has struggled with alcohol and his marriage and hasn't been experiencing the joy of the Lord as much as he wants to. He blames FP for this and continues to "drift" more and more back into the PP "orthodox" and "scholarly" world hoping this will solve his problems. Sorry Sam - it might temporarily, but in the long run it will only magnify your problems and specifically your conscience 7 fold!"

 This tendency to protect the system at all costs -- particularly in seeking the disqualification of the individual (as though dislike of one's personality is enough grounds to dismiss their appeal to the Bible) -- is actually very disturbing.   Borrowing from the Sarah Palin "PDS" theme, and in the (non-hateful) spirit of "Dispensationalist Dementia", this tendency will be referred to as "Hyper Preterist Dementia".

• Those Who Oppose Full Preterism Do So Out of Hate

• Those Who Leave Full Preterism Have Personal Problems

• Those Who Leave Full Preterism Should be Ignored

• Those Who Leave Full Preterism Reject the Bible

(And all tea partiers are racists, too)
 

Roderick Edwards “Here we are practically begging this man to speak up & instead he dishonorably told us he'll wait until the battle is so dire, then he'll come in & deliver the death blow. If it was a real battle on a field, I would not want such a man as an ally. What coward lets his friends take all the arrows & then comes in at the last moment to behave like he won the battle? A man sculpting a cult of his own making, thats who. I guess Todd thinks it is now time to deliver his "death blow" so he now uses the infestation of the preterist universalism to declare the whole of full preterism so corrupt that it must die & -- wow! Todd is Johnny-on-the-spot to offer an alternative. Perhaps he will claim he doesn't care who takes up his new offering? Right, the man knows he commands the most visited site on full preterism & he would dare to pretend he is just expressing his "personal view"? Many people are actually now really taking up Todd's new version of preterism, but why? Because men like him set back while the battle was raging & like a coward came in to steal away the war & the victory.”

Virgil Vaduva
"I do not believe that Todd Dennis is dangerous, but he seems to be motivated by an irrational zeal which is clouding his mind and controls him and all he does. Good people and ideas are judged by their fruits, and so far, the fruits of “preterist idealism” seem to be hate, injustice and elitism. The very fact that a guy uses his divorce and personal life to rationalize attacking other people should tell you enough about his theology and his relationship with the Creator so that we can only pray for him to recover and do what’s right in relation to those around him, his family and people he is using to further whatever agenda he has created in his mind. Please either reach out to Todd if you know him, or pray for him so that he is redeemed and healed of his hate and evil plans. "  (Todd Dennis and his Cult of Personal Destruction)

EndTimesMan
“This has nothing to do with our discussion. You endevour to continue denying the timing Christ put things in. Once you come to the true timetables then the rest will fit. Your speculation is not impressive and actually speaks something else of you. You have no proof, do you?” (Cite)

Tim Martin
"From my observations, the problem of personal issues like the ones that have been bandied about recently is personal immaturity, foolishness, and sin in various forms. These things are corrosive to the life of faith.  Always has been always will be. Those things will take their toll. God doesn't allow his people to wallow in the junk without repercussions...  The ironic thing is that some are suggesting that their personal experience indicates a "problem" with full-preterist theology. If that isn't the "blame game," I don't know what is. All based on personal observations (empirical in nature) and feelings, no less! Others have done it before, too, in my opinion. Similar arguments were introduced in the "preterist-idealist" fiasco a few years ago. Nothing new here.  That is my advice to those pondering blaming full-preterism for their own issues. Don't do it. You're just digging your own misery in deeper and deeper. If you don't take responsibility it is only going to get worse." (10/9/10)

Dan Parker
"I am sure it has all been explained to you but you are even less likely to understand the written word than the first Century Jews were, you know the ones that killed the Christ because he was a heretic. You are an enemy of God same as they were and have made yourself so by your willful blindness. John said "my people die for lack of knowledge" you are doubly as dead as they because you are without excuse. Jesus said on the cross "forgive them for they know not what they do" but he is not here to say that for you."

Virgil Vaduva
"For an insignificant movement you put an awful lot of effort into slandering it and its proponents. I think you have some serious issues…" Why I Don't Teach Preterism. 

Mike Sullivan
"I will say the same thing about you that I did Roderick.  I pointed out how there is no middle ground and that Roderick's heart would eventually get harder from his sin of rejecting and compromising the Word of God.  That is the road you are on.. And because of this, reading you (like Roderick) will end up being a complete waist of anyone's time." (PretCoz Yahoo)
 

Larry Siegle
"There are three aspects to the events of A.D. 70 that deserve clarification in order to achieve a proper balance in our understanding of exactly what happened in the first-century. There are those who draw conclusions that are not necessarily the logical implications and therefore takes a person down a very long and dark pathway into error in their understanding of the Scriptures. Unless one is able to properly discern what “ended” in A.D. 70, in contrast with what “began” and therefore what “remains” his conclusions will be to take an extreme position concerning the truth."

RESPONSE TO THIS HYPER PRETERIST BEHAVIOR

Parson's Pen: "What about the comparison of the left-wing attacks on Sarah Palin and the Apostolic Full-Preterist method of debate? Apostolic Full-Preterists do not take kindly to the disproving of their pet points. Their ire usually is shown in a ridiculing attack that mocks, insults, and demeans those that disagree. Rather than to intellectually defend their position, their preferred method is to “intimidate or anger” anyone that dares to challenges their doctrine."