Baha'i Faith and prophecy - Page 2

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    1. #16
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by shunyadragon
      Other prophecies in the Bible that are in harmony with Daniel 8:13-14.

      Leviticus 26: 28-33 I will chastise you seven times . . . and I will scatter you among the heathen.

      Daniel 4:13-16 Behold a watcher and a holy one came down from heaven; he cried aloud and thus . . . let seven times pass over him.

      Seven times may be interpreted as seven years X 360 days = 2520 years, beginning in 667 BC. leading to 1844 as the fulfillment of the return from being scattered among the heathen.

      Next the book of Revelation and 1844.
      What is significant about 667 BC? The interpretation of "times" as "years" in Leviticus looks forced. The passage you reference in Daniel refers to King Nebuchadrezzar, not Israel. Your multiplication also seems somewhat arbitrary (see my .sig).

      Quote Originally posted by shunyadragon
      Prophecies for more than one messiah or 'annointed one'

      I interpret Genesis 3:15 to refer to the plural and I fell there is more support for this.

      Zechariah 4:14 Then he said, "There are two 'annointed ones' that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

      Revelation 11:3-4 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses and they shall prophesy a thousand and two-hundred and three score days. These two olive trees and the candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

      Some interpret the two witnesses as Christ and Mohammod who will prophesy for 1260 years, which is the length of the dispensation of Islam in the Islamic calender and 1844 in the Christian calender.
      Genesis 3:15 can only be plural if the language supports that interpretation. AFAIK, the noun "seed" is singular in the Hebrew. Zechariah 4:14 refers to Joshua (the high priest) and Zerubbabel (the governor). Revelation 11:3-4 cannot refer to Christ, because He is sitting on the Throne in heaven while the two witnesses are on earth. Mohammed fits nowhere in the Bible.
      Last edited by One Bad Pig; October 12th 2004 at 11:54 PM.

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    2. #17
      shunyadragon's Avatar
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by One Bad Pig
      What is significant about 667 BC? The interpretation of "times" as "years" in Leviticus looks forced. The passage you reference in Daniel refers to King Nebuchadrezzar, not Israel. Your multiplication also seems somewhat arbitrary (see my .sig).
      No more forced than the other prophecies Christians used for Christ. These interpretations were arrived at by Millenial Christians and not the claims in the writings of the Baha'i Faith. They fit well the previous cited prophecy, which correlates with the Christian prophecies in Daniel for Christ and 1844.


      Genesis 3:15 can only be plural if the language supports that interpretation. AFAIK, the noun "seed" is singular in the Hebrew. Zechariah 4:14 refers to Joshua (the high priest) and Zerubbabel (the governor). Revelation 11:3-4 cannot refer to Christ, because He is sitting on the Throne in heaven while the two witnesses are on earth. Mohammed fits nowhere in the Bible.
      Genesis 3:15 has been debated in the Judaism section the the best Hebrew interpretation present from those who knew was plural. I will follow up with a specific post on this issue.

      The prophesy for two 'annointed ones' can biblically only refer to messiahs, not just two people. From the traditional Christian point of view yes, Mohammed does not fit any where. Of course from the traditional Jewish point of view Christ fits nowhere. I will submit the prophesies for Mohammed in another post also.

      Who are the two annointed ones?
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

    3. #18
      shunyadragon's Avatar
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by One Bad Pig
      What is significant about 667 BC?
      667 BC fits the warning given by Moses took effect in the year 667 BC with the first captivity of Judah by Babylon took place in 676 BC. From that time Moses warned Judah would be punished for a perod of seven times, until in 1844 they were allowed to return for the last time. If you used the solar calender 2520 years 676 BC is 1844.

      If you used the lunar calender originally used in the land of Nebuchadnezzar there are 2520 lunar years from 602 BC when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem to 1844.

      Some differences occur whether you use solar years or lunar years. I have problems figuring this out because I'm not good at math and I was not interested in prophesy when I became a Baha'i and the Baha'i writings do not directly refer to them. It was Christians and Moslems in the 1800s that analysed the calenders and dates and came up with these figures.
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

    4. #19
      shunyadragon's Avatar
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by kofh2u
      I assume there are congregations that meet somewhere. I wonder what the membership is.

      You seem to rely on scripture solely for these connections with the "expected one" you look forward to coming. What will he do, how will you recognize him?
      The Baha'is have elected Local Spiritual Assemblies when there are more than in nine in most of the major and significant cities of the world, unless forbidden by law like in China, Iraq and Iran. They meet in groups. They can be found in the phonebook or the internet.

      I actually never did rely personally on scripture for the connections. Some Baha'is do some do not. Recognizing him is an interesting task. At present there is no longer any need to look, but those that found them over the ages found a dark skinned kinky haired semite that preached that he was the promised one, among others who made false claims.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; October 14th 2004 at 11:12 AM.
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

    5. #20
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by One Bad Pig
      However, this makes absolutely no sense. Why would the "abomination of desolation" begin when the Jews get to restore the temple? Why would it end with a mere edict of toleration? Using these events actually weakens your case IMO.

      Christ's return is supposed to be with power and in triumph. I don't think Baha'u'llah qualifies on either count.
      Baha'u'llah fulfills this much better than Christian's of Christ to do so. A would be messiah from an unknown town who was crucified leaving his followers in confusion does not fit the glorious powere and triumph claimed in the prophecies for Christ.

      It did not end with the edict of toleration. The rebuilding of the temple begins with the edict.

      Baha'u'llah's decalations of changes to take place in the world, his letters to the kings, specific prophecies by him for the future made by him and his son concerning the two world wars, weld far more power than witnessed by Christians at the time of Christ and after.

      The laws declared by Baha'u'llah as standards of the new age have indeed become the standards of the world. The end of slavery, social and legal equality of men and women. the call for universal education, the harmony of science and religion, many other new universal standards for humanity in a world where humans must become one family to survive.

      The first world conferences to end slavery and promote the equality of women were held in 1843 and 1844.

      No, he knew not the timing of His return because He voluntarily gave up some of his divine attributes during His incarnation.
      True except for the incarnation bit. Those that keep their wicks trimmed and the lamps of their minds filled with oil will recognize the messiah. Those that do not will not see the 'Thief in the Night.'

      The Jews are less knowledgeable about the prophecies Christ fulfilled, because they deliberately avoid them. Most Jews who become Christians do so because they study the prophecies.
      Very few Jews become Christian. The Baha'i I enrolled with was a Baha'i from a Jewish background. Yes I feel Jews interpret teir prophecies narrowly, but they have demonstrated that many of the Christian interpretations of prophecy are foolishly in error and show a lack of knowledge of basic Hebrew.

      Buddha didn't come from God.
      Neither did Christ. Paul, Constantine and the early church fathers molded him into their own image of a Greco-Roman God.

      Who? Why?
      The German Christian Templer Colony that set up camp at the foot of Mount Carmel. More on this will follow.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; October 14th 2004 at 11:09 AM.
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

    6. #21
      Maimonides's Avatar
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by shunyadragon
      This thread is in response to question in other threads concerning the claim of the founders of the Baha'i Faith to fulfill the prophecies of Judaism, Christianity and the other religions of the world. The following are some beginning points. The points are important, because the Baha'i view of prophecy as universal is reflected in the universal.

      (1) God is a universal God for all humanity and not a Jewish, Christian or Moslem God. The nature of God is unknown and hidden. The attributes of God are revealed in the religions and evident in the nature of existence itself. There are no contradictions except in the egos of humans. A considerable amount of my argument rests on this premise. God is not theistic, deistic, pantheistic, monistic, God is . . .

      (2) The scripture of the world's religions is inspired, but writen by humans from the worldview of the time.

      (3) All the major religions of the world have prophecies for the coming and return of messiahs, but when they do arrive they are rejected and persecuted. Many of the prophecies from the different religions of the world are in harmony and the predictions are remarkably similar.

      (4) Religion is progressive, evolved, cyclic and universal. In fact it mirrors physical creation in these attributes. Messiahs have revealed guidance and wisdom to all the people of the world through out history. Revelation comes through the existence itself. The cycles of Revelation are also cycles of creation.

      (5) I believe the Bible prophecies the coming of more than one messiah. In fact Genesis 3:15. I believe there are other references to the coming of more than one messiah.

      (6) Salvation is as much a collective goal as an individual experience. Salvation is the nature of the journey of all life in all existence. The primary focus of the individual should be the salvation of humanity and saving our home for the future, not the self.

      (7) The world created will not be destroyed by the creator. There are no mistakes and wipping the slate clean with great floods or fiery planetary ethnic cleansing of those that are not saved.

      The story begins in the late 1700s and the first half of the 1800s when the prophetic dreams of many around the world foretell the coming of a messiah and a great change in the world. The key years of change center around 1843-45 and 1862-64.

      The first key date in prophecies foretell the importance off 1844 and 1863. Why did many people from around expect things to happen around these years? What happened around this time to fulfill the prophecies?

      Any one may access any Baha'i site and check out the claims. I will post individual events and prophecies for anyone to flail away at.

      One interesting point is the the Baha'i Faith including some miracles are better documented for the beginning of a religion making similar claims as Christianity. Some miracles are clearly better documented in Baha'i history, but the Baha'i Faith believes that miracles even witnessed first hand are not proof of anything.
      Shunyadragon,

      I want to take this opportunity to extend my sincere and hearfelt thanks for the excellent information provided on the Baha'i faith. I can tell I have a lot of research to do, as I already find myself fascinated by and attracted to your faith. I especially like your open-minded, non-inerrantist stance toward the Bible and your willingness to embrace truth in all religions (it tallies well with my own unorthodox Christian convictions). I'm reminded of the Bhagavad Gita: "Foolish men talk of religion in cheap, sentimental words, leaning on the scriptures: 'God speaks here, and speaks here alone.'" Do you value all sacred texts equally or is there a main one for the faith? Also, what first attracted you to the Baha'i faith?

    7. #22
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by Maimonides
      Shunyadragon,

      I want to take this opportunity to extend my sincere and hearfelt thanks for the excellent information provided on the Baha'i faith. I can tell I have a lot of research to do, as I already find myself fascinated by and attracted to your faith. I especially like your open-minded, non-inerrantist stance toward the Bible and your willingness to embrace truth in all religions (it tallies well with my own unorthodox Christian convictions). I'm reminded of the Bhagavad Gita: "Foolish men talk of religion in cheap, sentimental words, leaning on the scriptures: 'God speaks here, and speaks here alone.'" Do you value all sacred texts equally or is there a main one for the faith? Also, what first attracted you to the Baha'i faith?
      The Baha'i Faith views the scriptures of the world as the encyclodedia of spirituality of humanity. All contain inestimeable treasures of wisdom and knowledge locked up with the keys that only the detached and sincere may open. All can read, but only the detached sincere ones unburdened by the chains of materialism. logic, academia, and the self. The concept of speaking in tongues in the Bible has an interesting twist in meaning in these are not likely unintelligable languages, just the insight to understand by the child like sincere ones what others cannot. The truth maybe that to claim the gift means to lose it. The child is often able to see things plainly that others fail to comprehend.

      I recommend you do not try too hard and read the 'Seven Valleys and Four Valleys' and 'The Hidden Words' and try to research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache.
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

    8. #23
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      Exclamation Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by shunyadragon
      The Baha'i Faith views the scriptures of the world as the encyclodedia of spirituality of humanity. All contain inestimeable treasures of wisdom and knowledge locked up with the keys that only the detached and sincere may open. All can read, but only the detached sincere ones unburdened by the chains of materialism. logic, academia, and the self. The concept of speaking in tongues in the Bible has an interesting twist in meaning in these are not likely unintelligable languages, just the insight to understand by the child like sincere ones what others cannot. The truth maybe that to claim the gift means to lose it. The child is often able to see things plainly that others fail to comprehend.

      I recommend you do not try too hard and read the 'Seven Valleys and Four Valleys' and 'The Hidden Words' and try to research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache.

      1) You too look forward to the arrival of the messiah?

      2) How will you know him?

      3) What will be the purpose of his coming?

      4) What difference does it make for you, personally, or others, in regard to his appearance, whether you preach his coming or do not?
      Last edited by kofh2u; October 28th 2004 at 01:54 PM.

    9. #24
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by shunyadragon
      I recommend you do not try too hard and read the 'Seven Valleys and Four Valleys' and 'The Hidden Words' and try to research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache.
      Ah. This explains much.

      Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Orthodox Church in America locator<><Ancient Faith Radio<><Buy books here & support TheologyWeb!

      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    10. #25
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by One Bad Pig
      Ah. This explains much.
      The not so subtle meaning in your words betrays hidden motives. At the time Christ came and taught those that were the most educated and researchers of weighty scriptures were the ones who denied Him.

      Research is good, I do it all the time, but in the end it is a question of faith and the understanding of inner meaning.

      Even this thread on Baha'i prophecy requires I research into the more weighty meaning of prophetic scripture, which I knew little of when I became a Baha'i.

      If you or anyone else cares to research and debate, step up to the plate and take a couple of swings. I am waiting.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; October 28th 2004 at 08:23 PM.
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

    11. #26
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by kofh2u
      1) You too look forward to the arrival of the messiah?

      2) How will you know him?

      3) What will be the purpose of his coming?

      4) What difference does it make for you, personally, or others, in regard to his appearance, whether you preach his coming or do not?
      The messiah for this age was Baha'u'llah. I no longer have to look forward to His arrival. He brought a new message that changed the world. It will no longer be the same. The old world is slowly fading into the dust of antiquity.

      The purpose of his coming was to renew and heal the world divided frim within, renew the Torah, and create a new spritual civilization for humanity.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; October 28th 2004 at 08:38 PM.
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

    12. #27
      One Bad Pig's Avatar
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by shunyadragon
      The not so subtle meaning in your words betrays hidden motives. At the time Christ came and taught those that were the most educated and researchers of weighty scriptures were the ones who denied Him.

      Research is good, I do it all the time, but in the end it is a question of faith and the understanding of inner meaning.

      Even this thread on Baha'i prophecy requires I research into the more weighty meaning of prophetic scripture, which I knew little of when I became a Baha'i.

      If you or anyone else cares to research and debate, step up to the plate and take a couple of swings. I am waiting.
      Why should I bother? Based on your responses so far, you accept any evidence (no matter how shaky) that agrees with your position, and reject any (no matter how solid) that disagrees with it. I base my position on the bible as best I understand it. Instead of ignoring those bits that I find to disagree with my position (which has happened), I modify my stance accordingly. There is no middle ground between these two approaches.

      Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Orthodox Church in America locator<><Ancient Faith Radio<><Buy books here & support TheologyWeb!

      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    13. #28
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by One Bad Pig
      Why should I bother? Based on your responses so far, you accept any evidence (no matter how shaky) that agrees with your position, and reject any (no matter how solid) that disagrees with it. I base my position on the bible as best I understand it. Instead of ignoring those bits that I find to disagree with my position (which has happened), I modify my stance accordingly. There is no middle ground between these two approaches.
      This explains your position more clearly, instead of your previous not so subtle Gooney bird bombing run.
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

    14. #29
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      1) One Bad Pig:, hello.
      I am still awaiting your response to my PM in regard to a moderator notice concerning my laughter at Sylus the Atheist's checkmating me into discussing the SecondComing. Did you read it, the PM?

      2) Here, in your postings, I was taken aback by some of the things you say:
      "Jesus Himself said he didn't know when He would return."

      No.
      Jesus said Matt 24:36 ... "knoweth NO MAN..., nor angels, (the Freudian archetypes), of heaven (in the mental kingdom within) but my Father, (The Word), ONLY.

      And, of course our Father is the Word, John 1:1.

      He also said, Matt 11:27... "All things are delivered unto me of my Father (via the Word): and NO MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father (testifying in the Word), neither knoweth ANY MAN the Father, (Scripture), save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him (scriptural interpretations).

      Of course, in Mark 13:32, Jesus says basically the same again.
      But we might infer that he was unconcerned with the question, or had purpose in keeping us ever watchful, since he again defaults the time of the end to the Word, itself, as the place for us to to find such answers.

      John 7:27-8 seems to clear this point up.

      Jesus says that telling you is like cheating on the quiz.

      If you KNOW "he that sent me"... you ought recognize "whence I am" when I re-appear, because his own coming, the first, was not to be known either. So, in each case, first and second comings, the pharisees/et in kind have and will have this same complaint against him, the one who comes.

      So the bab is not so easily disqualified, true?

      3) You say: "Jesus' return will be a triumphant one. "

      How? How do you see it as different from the first coming? You say no one knows. So, he comes alone again, but announces himself to us?
      Certain, he will not take his kingdom by force nor might, but by "his spirit." And, isn't that spirit in the Christian body?

      4) He wasn't going to be coming back just to be killed again (like the Bab was).

      Seems reasonable. I suspect 144,000 Christian "Soldiers" will form an impentrable phalanx around him.

      5) You mean the millerite SDA don't you?
      "The only other group I'm familiar with who used that year was the Jehovah's Witnesses, and they rejected it for another (and another, and another...) when it became evident they were wrong."

      6) You apparently have high specific standards.
      "Well, you've failed to convince me so far (especially using the set of scriptures I subscribe to)."

      Again, How do you see it as different from the first coming? You say no one knows. So, he comes alone again, but announces himself to us?
      "To follow the rational meaning of Torah is not to adopt an ancient position and insist on silence there after.
      That is not Empiricism.
      The Scientific Method of Empiricism says that a comprehensive Hypothesis should guide our thinking, rather than the rigid dogma of ancient waves of traditional metaphysical religious interpretations that organized priesthoods use to sway society." Galilleo?

    15. #30
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      Re: Baha'i Faith and prophecy

      Quote Originally posted by kofh2u
      2) Here, in your postings, I was taken aback by some of the things you say:
      "Jesus Himself said he didn't know when He would return."

      No.
      Jesus said Matt 24:36 ... "knoweth NO MAN..., nor angels, (the Freudian archetypes), of heaven (in the mental kingdom within) but my Father, (The Word), ONLY.

      And, of course our Father is the Word, John 1:1.

      He also said, Matt 11:27... "All things are delivered unto me of my Father (via the Word): and NO MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father (testifying in the Word), neither knoweth ANY MAN the Father, (Scripture), save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him (scriptural interpretations).
      Of course, no one including the son will know in advance. That is why it will be a 'Theif in the night.' Only the sincere ones with the trimed wicks and well oiled lamps will realize the return. The others will remain in the darkness.

      4) He wasn't going to be coming back just to be killed again (like the Bab was).
      The Bab was the Herald to the return. Baha'u'llah is the triumphant return. Baha'u'llah was put in prison to die and threatened with execution, but none would touch him and he was freed from prison. His proclamations to the kings went forth and his new law for the new world became the laws of today's world. He decreed certain kings would fall and lineage end, and others that would be fruitful and continue.

      Many expect everything to happen at once and the world to end. Christ in the clouds leading armies of angels mounted on white horses. Thousands rising from the graves. The earth openning up and swallowing millions of sinners. I believe the old world will decayeth and waxeth as the the new one unfolds as described in Hebrews 8.
      Go with the flow the river knows.

      Frank Doonan
      Hillsborough, NC 27278

      Gifts of jade-silk change weapons and war into peace and friendship.

      I do not know, therefore I think . . . and everything is in pencil.

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