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WikiLeaks VIDEO Exposes 2007 'Collateral Murder' In Iraq

Wikileaks

First Posted: 06/05/10 06:12 AM ET Updated: 05/25/11 05:05 PM ET

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Calling it a case of "collateral murder," the WikiLeaks Web site today released harrowing video of a U.S. Army Apache helicopter in Baghdad in 2007 repeatedly opening fire on a group of men that included a Reuters photographer and his driver -- and then on a van that stopped to rescue one of the wounded men.

None of the members of the group were taking hostile action, contrary to the Pentagon's initial cover story; they were milling about on a street corner. One man was evidently carrying a gun, though that was and is hardly an uncommon occurrence in Baghdad.

Reporters working for WikiLeaks determined that the driver of the van was a good Samaritan on his way to take his small children to a tutoring session. He was killed and his two children were badly injured.

In the video, which Reuters has been asking to see since 2007, crew members can be heard celebrating their kills.

"Oh yeah, look at those dead bastards," says one crewman after multiple rounds of 30mm cannon fire left nearly a dozen bodies littering the street.

A crewman begs for permission to open fire on the van and its occupants, even though it has done nothing but stop to help the wounded: "Come on, let us shoot!"

Two crewmen share a laugh when a Bradley fighting vehicle runs over one of the corpses.

And after soldiers on the ground find two small children shot and bleeding in the van, one crewman can be heard saying: "Well, it's their fault bringing their kids to a battle."

The helicopter crew, which was patrolling an area that had been the scene of fierce fighting that morning, said they spotted weapons on members of the first group -- although the video shows one gun, at most. The crew also mistook a telephoto lens for a rocket-propelled grenade.

The shooting, which killed Reuters photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen, 22, and driver Saeed Chmagh, 40, took place on July 12, 2007, in a southeastern neighborhood of Baghdad.
The next day, the New York Times reported the military's official cover story:

The American military said in a statement late Thursday that 11 people had been killed: nine insurgents and two civilians. According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.


"There is no question that coalition forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force," said Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad.

The video shows otherwise.

Washington Post reporter David Finkel described the incident -- and the video -- in great detail in his September 2009 book, "The Good Soldiers". A summary can be found here.

Finkel also described a review session after Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich, commander of the Army's 2nd Battalion, 16th Infantry Regiment and his soldiers returned to base, which "concluded that everyone had acted appropriately." (Kauzlarich was also involved in the Army's Pat Tillman cover-up, and later told ESPN that the reluctance of Tillman's parents to accept the military's story that he was killed by enemy action, rather than friendly fire, was the unfortunate result of their lack of Christian faith.)

WikiLeaks, a small, independent Web site that invites people to post information and documents that powerful interests would prefer to keep secret, says it received the video and supporting documents from military whistleblowers.

Julian Assange, the editor of the site, said the killings either violated the the army's rules of engagement, or those rules of engagement "are very, deeply wrong."

Watch the WikiLeaks video below, or the key portions of the video as pieced together by MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan:


Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy


Unveiling the video at the National Press Club on Monday morning, Assange said the helicopter crew approached its job as if it were a video game, not something involving human lives. Their desire was simply to kill," he said. "Their desire was to get high scores on that computer game."

Reuters released this statement from David Schlesinger, editor-in-chief of Reuters news: "The deaths of Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh three years ago were tragic and emblematic of the extreme dangers that exist in covering war zones. We continue to work for journalist safety and call on all involved parties to recognise the important work that journalists do and the extreme danger that photographers and video journalists face in particular. The video released today via WikiLeaks is graphic evidence of the dangers involved in war journalism and the tragedies that can result."

An Army spokesman could not immediately be reached for comment.

Just this morning, the New York Times confirmed a gruesome cover-up by U.S. forces in Afghanistan. Officials who had repeatedly denied reports by Jerome Starkey in the Times of London have now confirmed that American Special Operations soldiers slaughtered three women in a nighttime raid in February -- and actually dug bullets out of the bodies of the women as part of a cover-up. Starkey says U.S. and NATO forces are rarely held to account for the atrocities they commit.

WATCH: WikiLeaks editor Assange being interviewed by Al Jazeera English:


Just last month, WikiLeaks posted the results of a U.S. counterintelligence investigation into none other than WikiLeaks itself. The report determined that WikiLeaks "represents a potential force protection, counterintelligence, operational security (OPSEC), and information security (INFOSEC) threat to the US Army."

The report also concludes, highly suggestively: "Wikileaks.org uses trust as a center of gravity by assuring insiders, leakers, and whistleblowers who pass information to Wikileaks.org personnel or who post information to the Web site that they will remain anonymous. The identification, exposure, or termination of employment of or legal actions against current or former insiders, leakers, or whistleblowers could damage or destroy this center of gravity and deter others from using Wikileaks.org to make such information public."

Meanwhile, Assange says another video is forthcoming: This one of a bombing in Afghanistan with civilian casualties.

*************************

Dan Froomkin is senior Washington correspondent for the Huffington Post. You can send him an e-mail, bookmark his page; subscribe to RSS feed, follow him on Twitter, friend him on Facebook, and/or become a fan and get e-mail alerts when he writes.

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Scroll down for the video Calling it a case of "collateral murder," the WikiLeaks Web site today released harrowing video of a U.S. Army Apache helicopter in Baghdad in 2007 repeatedly opening fire...
Scroll down for the video Calling it a case of "collateral murder," the WikiLeaks Web site today released harrowing video of a U.S. Army Apache helicopter in Baghdad in 2007 repeatedly opening fire...
 
 
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11:06 PM on 06/01/2010
To finish my last entry We as Americans or Allied Nations should not be held responsible 4 a bad decision making process these journalists obviously had. (No disrespect to the Family or Loved ones of the Fallen.) but to quote an old Military saying "You lie with Dogs you get Fleas" He should have got the HELL out of there as soon as spotting these guy's so close to Him. I know as well as now 4 sure everyone should, to stay away from the Insurgents how many beheadings and killings of Reporters and Contractors do we have to see to figure out they have no RULES and will not abide to any as well. So in closing Instad of blaming the BRAVE people who are protecting your rights(such as the 1st. ammendment.) that you so dearly enjoy and sometimes exploit, Why dont you just say Thank You for making a decision you and most of your colleagues never had to make because it just didnt make eniugh money 4 you to do...
10:48 PM on 06/01/2010
Listen it gets exhausting listening to journalists and thier employers (cnn,fox,reuters,etc.) than give your people training B4 sending them to a warzone quit being worried about the money it would cost to train them to stay alive in such situations. And everything nowadays is the Army's or Navy, USMC's fault why these Brave young men are making less than a fraction of what the Reporters are, And the said Reporter should know or at least make an effort to understand what these Soldiers deal with on a daily basis. Life and Death decisions come in split seconds and these soldiers had exactly that to decide wether to thierself come home or fellow U.S. Soldier or the Insurgent who brought all this upon Himself and obviously others around Him.In min. 3:40 You could see two obvious Insurgents holding rifles clearly. I ask you Reuters I noticed every time we did something suspect you notated the Video, Why then I ask did you not notate that. You should have had a little arrow pointing at them saying "Insurgents" but of course not than you would be giving up your Stance on the matter right? Well in saying that the reporters as anyone who has been in or around armed conflict I would try to get the Hell out of There, Especially (knowing in hindsight) unarmed. Hold up your Equipt. or anything that looks as such above your Head or better yet DROP IT!!!!!.
10:04 PM on 05/05/2010
All of u, lissen to me ... yes, this means YOU ... are u lissenin'? ... there are NO fine points to debate here ... none zip zilch zero ... all of u that mention such are fools (nothin' personal) ... the Attack Helicopters were one of several Angels of Death on scene (including our ever loveable Iraqi innocent civilians, journalists, et al) ... when that shudder of terror goes thru your essence ... u've got 3 choices: stand and fight (good luck), stand and die (self explanatory), run AWAY ... There is NO OTHER WAY to interpret this ... I have spoken ...

Nothin', absolutely nothin' wrong w/what the US troops did. Eveything wrong w/what the journalists did. When u see Attack Helicopters orbiting overhead, u git outta Dodge, most riki tik. It's also not wise to position at the corner of a building & point ur telephoto up at the Harbingers of Death, unless'n u wanna commit suicide (along w/those 2 clearly rifle-totin gents) which apparently they did ("Death by Cop", or "Death by Extremly Awesome Aerial Killing Machine?"). Samey same, either way.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
R2D2-51
Flower Power Forever
01:24 PM on 06/01/2010
So much for the value of human dignity and a philosophy that fits the typical profile that goes back to the doctrine beginning with our conquest of our national territory.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
pinhead71
11:35 PM on 04/21/2010
you would think that for a 14 million dollar helicopter they could put a better camera on them so they could tell the difference between a camera and a ak-47.
I would rather they spend the extra and put it on my tab.
As for opening fire on the minivan that is inexcusable.
12:39 PM on 04/22/2010
youre not very bright are you? the soldiers never thought the camera was an ak. if they didnt frame these guys, they dont get to be heros. and washington wont be able to justify their presence.
04:43 PM on 04/26/2010
If you take the time watch the video, you'll see that they actually do mistake the camera first for an ak-47, then for an RPG, but that they also don't identify the real RPG (which you can see clearly at 2:11 to about 2:25 in the full version video) correctly - just as some kind of weapon.
10:28 PM on 04/21/2010
Attacking the soldiers involved in this incident is totally pointless and off-target. The reason this tragedy happened is entirely due to strategic decisions far outside those soldiers control. They didn't decide to deploy into urban areas in Iraq and fight an irregular army. That decision was made entirely by well-fed jerks, sitting in safe air-conditioned rooms thousands of miles away.

There is no doubt that U.S. troops in the area were under attack, though apparently not by this particular group of journalists and civilians. The problem is that it's very difficult for soldiers to differentiate combatant from civilian in a built up urban area like that, and when the soldiers start getting shot at, their interest in carefully discriminating targets goes down dramatically.

Anyway, the callous disregard for human life exhibited by the soldiers may be disturbing, but it should not be surprising. That mental attitude towards "the enemy" is cultivated in military culture. It is necessary, because it's rather difficult to motivate soldiers to stick their bayonets in fellow humans that they feel empathy towards.

If this video disgusts you, then you should be disgusted at yourself for helping to enable the evil death sowing empire that our nation has become. We should bring the troops home, and take our foreign policy cues from Switzerland if we want this junk to end.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
pinhead71
11:50 PM on 04/21/2010
"If this video disgusts you, then you should be disgusted at yourself for helping to enable the evil death sowing empire that our nation has become."
I didn't ever vote for Bush, I never favored war in Iraq or Afghanistan. and I will never endorse "American exceptionalism" or "imperialism" therefore I'am disgusted in the use of force until our troops are confronted or in CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER. Don't get ne wrong I don't want our troops harmed but, I also don't want innocent people killed.
02:10 PM on 04/22/2010
Nobody is innocent.

You and me and the rest of the American people maybe least of all. Our nation has been committing atrocities just like the one in this video for decades, all in our name.

Sleep well America.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
R2D2-51
Flower Power Forever
01:31 PM on 06/01/2010
We have been doing this type of stuff pretty much since day 1, dating back to the days of Columbus and the conquest of the national territory, leading to the unipolar moment of our global hegemony for full spectrum dominance and control over all life on this planet.
06:00 PM on 04/17/2010
When we as a nation circumvent our own laws and those set forth by the World bodies, the respect and trust of world communities towards our military personnel stationed abroad is jeopardized. With that said, we do no justice as American citizens trying to justify or condone behavior that is inappropriate & illegal as spelled out in the UCMJ, US Constitution, and Geneva Convention. If we as a nation continue to stoop to the levels of our enemies, then we have failed society greatly. Some accountability and explanation is needed concerning the content of this video. Forget the 'what I think' happen, and the explain a way theories. Gates need to answer for this video instead of trying to paint WikiLeaks as the enemy here. If our administration is willing to do this type of coverup in a far-a-way country, how much more so should this happen at home. Some day, we as a nation are going to have to give a full account in the open. I would like to hear a full explanation from our administration, I'm tired of the lies. Pictures & videos tell a thousand words, and all we are hearing is finger pointing.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
R2D2-51
Flower Power Forever
01:34 PM on 06/01/2010
Unfortunately the United States has elected to reserve itself as being excluded by any treaties or conventions adopted by the UN, including our right to commit genocide.
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10:24 AM on 04/16/2010
I applaud you Huffington Post, I applaud you for being able to pass off this article as fair and balanced journalistic truth. Not many people could do it, but you guys did it quite elegantly. But heck because some people here might be interested beyond what wikilinks says, here's some crucial things that were left out:

1. This was an active combat zone. These weren't a few guys out on a Sunday stroll here, they were in an active combat zone. In fact troops had been taking fire from that position minutes earlier. The reason the Apache was in the area was to support the ground units as they were conducting a raid.

2. A man carrying an AK was not common. It was legal to own an AK in Baghdad at the time, but carrying one around in an active combat zone isn't okay. Especially when with a group of armed individuals who also have RPGs.

3. There was no mention that MULTIPLE WEAPONS WERE FOUND AT THE SCENE. It's not just soldiers claims there were weapons, there's photos of the weapons. This includes RPGs

4. The article fails to mention that the van was seen earlier in the unedited video dropping off insurgents. But wikilinks edited that out

5. And no mention that medics treated the wounded children WHILE STILL TAKING FIRE from nearby? The article condemns the pilots for trying to cope, but there is no mention of the troops risking their safety to save those children.
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breakingpoint
War is a Racket - Smedley Butler
05:09 PM on 04/13/2010
NSFW
Comment - Wikileaks Furthermore Extra Bonus: Invaded USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ABpHRmHpheo
04:54 PM on 04/12/2010
Can anyone provide a reference to substantiate the claim that it was legal for anyone to walk about town with an AK-47 in 2007? It sounds unlikely to me, but I have no data.
07:32 PM on 04/10/2010
It is absolutely unbelievable to me that there are people defending the actions of this Apache gunner. The point made by the Wikileaks founder in many interviews is right on: EVEN IF you can accept some argument about the initial attack ... that there were two guys with weapons ... EVEN IF you accept that, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever, morally or legally, to "light up" the van that arrived to help the wounded. That journalist might be with us today if it weren't for the homicidal insanity of that Apache gunner. Period. A number of other points:

1) At this time in Iraq, IT WAS LEGAL TO OWN AND CARRY an AK-47.

2) Quite possibly, the men with the AK-47s could have been the security detail for the journalists.

3) On numerous occasions, the gunner LIES in order to get the permission to shoot. His initial report that there are "5 or 6 guys with AK-47s" is just a flat out lie.

4) Everyone should keep in mind that while all we see are grainy black-and-white video, the gunner was able to see everything in live, real-life color and so he had an even better understanding of the situation.

5) It is clear that the gunner's desire was to just kill as much as possible. He literally begs out loud for the wounded journalist to "just pick up a weapon" so that he has the excuse to kill him.
10:46 AM on 04/11/2010
Your conclusions based on initial bias, and limited subjective pov.

1. It was and is legal to own a registered ak and keep it at home for self defense. You can't stroll around streets brandishing AK and RPG weapons.
2. The group had armed man and rpg's wouldn't be used for personal security. If any of the rifle toting guys had been reuters security, then reuters would have mentioned them too. They mention their driver as a casualty. We also know from independent sources that this is JAM controlled area that had been shooting at US soldiers not only in weeks/months prior, but that very day. In fact, while US troops are inspecting on site, they come undr small arms fire and gun cam spots 2 guys with AKs trying to sneak away.
3. He was accurate. He saw 5-6 guys with weapons. They weren't ladies out with baby strollers. They were guys with weapons.
4. Exactly. Don't rush to judge. These guys are exposed and getting shot at and see much more than what gun camera shows. But even gun cam is enough to support their actions - EXCEPT VAN. I'm not saying they were right/wrong, I'm saying zoomed in gun cam doesn't provide enough info by itself to justify according to my limited understanding of ROE.
5. Oh puhleeze.
12:08 PM on 04/11/2010
Sorry, your inhuman attempt to justify these murders is weak.

1. You're wrong ... in Iraq, it was legal at the time to carry your AK-47 with you for protection. Thousands of private security guys carried that and more around all the time.

2. Reuters wouldn't mention it if Reuters didn't know. But if I see what is obviously two warzone journalists and one guy with a gun, it seems rational to assume that they have security in their party. Especially if they aren't doing anything besides milling about -- not taking up defensive positions, not acting remotely suspicious, etc.

3. First, the order to kill was given BEFORE a mistaken RPG ID happened. Second, he didn't see 5-6 guys with weapons. He saw 2 guys with camera equipment and MAYBE one guy with a gun. He was not engaged or "lit up" in any way.

4. Who says it was a JAM-controlled neighborhood (JAM being an Iraqi militia, Mr Armchair Murderer wants to act tough with random acronyms)?

"Oh puhleeze" -- this is where you'll find yourself at odds with 99% of humanity. Guys who are caught on audio begging to be able to shoot a wounded, dying guy are psychos. No real way to disagree with that.
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10:57 PM on 04/22/2010
I saw guys on the ground too but they were relaxed, the group seemed to be breaking up, and nobody was looking up or pointing guns. Maybe - and I know this is far out there - maybe it is not smart to shoot to kill unless your life is in imminent danger. One way or the other, like cats in a litterbox it was covered up from above and they hoped no one would know what it was. Must be a reason for coordinating that little bit of business.

But I did hear someone in the copter having fun. Oh and thanks for the shot about the ladies with strollers. We all know women and children are never killed. There was nothing heroic going on in that video and you are delusional if you think words can make it so.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
R2D2-51
Flower Power Forever
01:37 PM on 06/01/2010
The world is full of human beings who have not a clue what it means to embrace human dignity and rise above the same testosterone driven behaviors and values that have not changed since the days of the barbarians in the dark German forests.
06:51 PM on 04/10/2010
please help:

dear editors & journalists
1. What was the motivation from these soldiers in the Apache-helicopter to join Army?
is it possible, that they were recruited with a Video game (e.g. "America's Army")? Please ask this question to the media, that they can check it!
And: were they under influence of drugs?

2. (especially german-speakers): compare the Wikipedia-articles http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army with the english version – there are some interesting differences! No/hardly criticism in the english one. Please complete!
(I'm not a native-speaker).

Thanks a lot – i think, it is important!
11:24 PM on 04/09/2010
Nothin', absolutely nothin' wrong w/what the US troops did. Eveything wrong w/what the journalists did. When u see Attack Helicopters orbiting overhead, u git outta Dodge, most riki tik. It's also not wise to position at the corner of a building & point ur telephoto up at the Harbingers of Death, unless'n u wanna commit suicide (along w/those 2 clearly rifle-totin gents) which apparently they did ("Death by Cop", or "Death by Extremly Awesome Aerial Killing Machine?"). Samey same, either way.
01:22 AM on 04/10/2010
“These guys were breathing hard to kill someone.”

....Defense analyst Pierre Sprey, who led the design teams for the F-16 and A-10 and who spent many years in the Pentagon, stresses two particularly damning features of the footage. The first is the claim that Noor-Eldeen’s telephoto lense could be mistaken for an RPG. “A big telephoto for a 35mm camera is under a foot and half at most. An RPG, unloaded , is 3 feet long and loaded, 4 foot long. These guys were breathing hard to kill someone.”

Sprey’s second point is that Apache helicopters makes a very loud “whomp, whomp” noise. “ Twelve guys are unconcerned, with loud helicopters right overhead. Imagine if they were planning an assault on American troops. They’d be crouched down and skulking along walls, spread out. They would not be walking casually down the middle of the street, totally ignoring the helicopters.”

A retired U.S. Marine was even blunter:

“Not a good show at all. The group on the ground were banishing nothing that ‘looked’ or appeared as weapons. The Apache crews were stupid and the intelligence clowns pointing them egging them on are guilty of murder.”

In the aftermath the US military claimed that some AK-47s and a grenade launcher had been found at the scene. Sprey comments that, in the course of the subsequent coverup, the weapons may well have been planted, LAPD style.

FULL STORY:
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn04092010.html
09:19 AM on 04/10/2010
As I can see the RPG-7 and an AK-47 in the video about 20 seconds before they mistake the camera for an RPG, I don't think they had to plant any weapons.

But the attack on the van is awful and criminal. The Hellfire attacks later in the video also look very dubious to me - there may or may not be insurgents in the attacked building, I don't know, but the pilots are wholly unconcerned about multiple innocent bystanders.

It's also evident from their chatter that they're eagerly looking for any reason to open fire, instead of looking for reasons not to as well.

There is obviously something very wrong with the training of US military personnel, and even worse problems with the attitudes of everyone in the whole chain of command from troopers to the president. The fact that the military concludes no one did anything wrong here is proof that their values are rotten to the core.

Jannsmoor: Thank you for posting the link to that horrible article.

The United States of America is making new enemies faster than the old ones can be killed off, and alienating its allies in the process.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
R2D2-51
Flower Power Forever
01:43 PM on 06/01/2010
Same old disgusting stuff huh, and people actually have the audacity to wonder why the rest of the so called civilized world is condemning us for what we do, and see us as the true terrorist threat to world peace. This footage pretty much encapsulates that truism, that some things just never change-wanton destruction of life and property in the name of global hegemony by pawns on the world game board..
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Cheryl12345
01:42 AM on 04/10/2010
You have just proved the point that those journalists were NOT engaged in any activity that would make those soldiers in the Apache suspicious and attack. "When U see Attack Helicopters...." If you were an enemy you would take cover. These men were oblivious to what was happening overhead. They were walking slowly without any indication of rushing, or doing any suspicious activity. They were wearing white clothing. If you were a soldier, or other enemy you would not be dressed in white.

There have always been two things sacred in war: The Red Cross and the Journalists. I am of the opinion the Journalists were killed so prevent them from reporting something else.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Jannsmoor
01:13 PM on 04/09/2010
First, flying an Apache and killing people who are standing out in the open from a mile away is not combat. It's a video game.
Second, the language and exaggerations used by the pilots clearly exhibits a desire to kill people.
Third, if you have the courage, I suggest you visit this website where soldiers go on the record to describe how America makes war:

http://www.politicaltheatrics.net/2010/04/iraq-war-vet-we-were-told-to-just-shoot-people-and-the-officers-would-take-care-of-us/
04:16 PM on 04/12/2010
Part 1

War is horrible - every time. Certain presidents and the people who elect them should remember that.

War is about killing or maiming the enemy and destroying his equipment without getting killed or maimed. If you can shoot him in the back without him seeing you, good job. If you can gun them down without taking return fire, you've done everything right. If you can torpedo a troop transport and let a thousand of them them drown, excellent. Subs don't pick up survivors. An old sniper tactic is to shoot the first one in the leg or belly, when he makes a lot of noise and his buddies come to rescue him, you pick them off too. Landmines are particularly evil little things, most countries banned them in 1999, but 40 countries still use them.

Almost anything goes, except targeting civilians, the red cross and incapacitated or surrendering enemies. Using chemical or biological weapons, torture and rape is also illegal.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
R2D2-51
Flower Power Forever
01:47 PM on 06/01/2010
It used to be that when a group of people decided to wage war against another group of human beings, the one who was leader of that group led the charge, like Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great and Caesar.
04:17 PM on 04/12/2010
Part 2

Yes, they want to kill the enemy. But they forget about trying to avoid killing civilians and incapacitated enemies.

Different tactics, training and rules of engagement apply in different situations.

From basic training in bayonet fighting, sergeant asks questions, soldiers answer while performing the movements:

"What is the Spirit of the Bayonet?"
"To kill without mercy!"
"What two kinds of bayonet fighters are there?"
"The Quick and the Dead!"
"What kind are you?"
"Quick!"
"What kind are they?"
"Dead!"
"What is your bayonet made of?"
"Cold blue steel!"
"What makes the grass grow?"
"Bright red blood!"
"What is the Spirit of the Bayonet?"

This kind of training may be necessary to be able to get up, run into the fire from that machine gun nest and rout them. Some of the charging soldiers will die. Combat is still sometimes so close that the bayonet is useful, British soldiers performed several bayonet charges in the Falklands war, Iraq and Afghanistan. This is one of the things soldiers are trained to do. But they prefer to call in an Apache and let it rip the enemy to shreds for them if they can.

But another kind of training is also needed to handle urban warfare and counter insurgency operations. And if the officers don't care about the laws of war, war crimes will happen.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
R2D2-51
Flower Power Forever
01:53 PM on 06/01/2010
I still think that if any leader of a group of people wishes to enage in the killing of other people, where the people doing the killing might never of had a personal beef with those they will kill, ought to be the one leading the charge.
Kinda like that philosophy where I won't send you into any situation that might get you killed unless I am the first to go. What happened to that philosophy of courage and honor to be the first to die for your beliefs; unless of course those doing the killing are being used to simply fulfill the strategic plans of those they don't know and never will and being given a slap on the back and a cheap paycheck if your lucky enough to survive intact.
06:33 AM on 04/09/2010
Those of you who are bashing the soldiers I'd like to know have you ever been in combat?..
Do you really think they would of killed those people if they thought they were noncombatants?

War is a horrible undertaking, and the United States ask its young men repeatedly to do so many things that are contradicting. On one hand they want their soldiers to exercise restraint (when their enemy does not) they ask them to show compassion and then they tell them to kill people, and then the soldiers are expected to come back to society and "fit" in as if nothing has happened, like the actions they undertook for the past x amount of time didn't happen. If the soldier has to be expected to now be 100% sure before they engage the amount of dead/wounded soldiers will dramatically increase. The pilots were confident of what they saw, they were wrong, that is a tragedy, and it is one that will haunt those pilots till they die. No matter what the Powers that be do to them, they will suffer with the guilt of that till they die.. Listen to the voices at the end of the tape.. i mean really listen.. at the tone not the words.. you will hear in it the pain that they are starting to feel.. and that was BEFORE the rest of the facts about the engagement came out, even then they were trying to justify to themselves the injured childern.
07:44 AM on 04/09/2010
I have no reason to believe they weren't convinced they were killing bad guys, but that is not enough.

How can you say that the pilot was confident about what he saw, when he lied to his commander to get permission to wipe out the van? He said they were "picking up the bodies". They were picking up a single wounded. When the Apache fired, they had already entered the van and set it in motion to turn it around and get out of there. The steering wheel was locked at the rightmost endpoint.

It is all too obvious that both the pilot and the gunner did not want the wounded man to get away, the gunner even says "they're taking him", then swears as he is loaded into the van.

They lost their heads because they thought the wounded man had tried to fire an RPG at the troops. They knew none of the people in the vicinity of the van posed any threat, so they lied about what they were doing to get permission to fire. They deceived their commanding officer, then committed a summary execution.

Even if the wounded man had actually fired an RPG and killed everyone inside an APC, he was already incapacitated and unarmed and his helpers did not have any weapons, so what they did would still have been equally bad and illegal. You can not shoot incapacitated or surrendering enemies.
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12:29 PM on 04/09/2010
"...they will suffer with the guilt of that till they die.."
Maybe yes maybe no. For many it will be no. For our society it has been no. For our government it has been no. It is still cold blooded murder as should be considered all the deaths in this illegal war. Because people elect to join the army and kill over a million innocents, be party to torture and maybe feel guilty about it, we should accept it? The people who are against the war have no say except writing in blogs that killing is bad. We have been hijacked. The world is darn near ruined because of war mongering and we should consider the likelihood of guilt felt by the murderers as some sort of balance in the universe?
No. I say how dare you kill people like that. Murderer.
03:46 AM on 04/09/2010
why is this story no longer anywhere to be found on either the home front page or the politics front page??!! i guess that the editors don't deep a story with over 10,000 comments to be as important as as tiger woods or other celebrity trash story -- gee thanks huff po for showing your true colors
11:12 AM on 04/09/2010
That's right!

Back on the 'Happy Farm' MSM zooms in its focus as Tiger Woods firmly grips his new shriveled up putter.

BTW...you know that all is well in Disney Land when even the Weather Channel is more concerned about Tiger's grip than it is with the Weather!

See your local drug pusher (pharmacist) boys and girls and take a Conformity Pill!

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope