Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor are happily God-free - Isthmus

Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor are happily God-free
The co-presidents of Madison's Freedom From Religion Foundation relish standing up to true believers
Ann Grauvogl on Friday 12/18/2009, (20) Comments

Credit:Timothy Hughes

Thirty-five for 35: Annie Laurie Gaylor

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Dangling from the brick fireplace in Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker's near-west-side home are three ornaments: a shiny Santa, a Hello Kitty head with a wreath around its neck, and a miniature "'Twas the Night Before Christmas" book. They are not out early for this year's holiday celebration, but left over from the year before.

The ornaments are at first a bit disconcerting, given that Gaylor and Barker are co-presidents of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Madison-based national advocacy group. And during the Christmas season, the group tends to come off as a bit of a Grinch. Recently, for the 14th year in a row, FFRF's solstice message went up in the Wisconsin Capitol Rotunda, proclaiming its wish that "reason prevail." It also says, "Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Yet Gaylor sees no disconnect between the ornaments in their home and this anti-religious stance. She says the couple's daughter Sabrina, now 20, still gets a kick out of Hello Kitty. And for the whole family, the solstice season is special.

"Christians stole Christmas," she says, noting the holiday's pre-Christian origins. "We're pleased to share it with them - just so they don't try to hog the whole winter solstice season."

The Gaylor-Barker family celebrates the solstice in a Sears house that's a smaller version of one Gaylor grew up in. The celebration of the sun's rebirth looks a lot like any holiday celebration, with food, family, gifts and often a tree.

"It's a natural holiday," Gaylor says. "You need to have something to look forward to."

It's late November and dark. After a long day, Gaylor, 54, curls into herself on her sofa in a living room arranged more for solitude than conversation. Oriental rugs provide the biggest spark of color on wooden floors.

Gaylor is exhausted after spending five hours being deposed for a federal lawsuit against the National Day of Prayer. "When you're suing your president [Barack Obama] and his press secretary," she says, "that's a very time-consuming case."

Petite with flyaway blond hair and direct eyes, she exudes competence as well as confidence. Yet she's surprisingly taken aback by negative reactions to her group's anti-religion message. The effect is an unsettling blend of iron fist in a delicate organza glove.

A little more than a week earlier, Gaylor was sharing animal stories with author Ursula LeGuin and laughing with radio host Ron Reagan, the former president's son, at the Freedom From Religion convention in Seattle. The next Monday, Jay Leno told a joke about the group: "When asked if they were happy to be in Seattle, they said, 'We're just praying it doesn't rain.'"

Home again, Gaylor is juggling six lawsuits, including a National Day of Prayer suit in Colorado, a Pledge of Allegiance appeal, a new case challenging a federal tax deduction for clergy housing, and a local case against a Manitowoc crèche. FFRF unsuccessfully filed suit to stop the engraving of "In God We Trust" on the Capitol visitor center in Washington, D.C.

"They went ahead and did it," she says. "Now we are really injured. Now we have to duke it out." The first hurdle is getting a green light to sue, which recent court rulings have made more difficult.

Barker, 60, is traveling. In a flurry of activity after Seattle, the tall, laid-back musician in black jeans and a black blazer found time to paint over graffiti on the FFRF building before leaving for 10 events in eight days in Texas, Oklahoma and Missouri. This included a debate with Dinesh D'Souza, author of What's So Great About Christianity, with its purposeful lack of a question mark. After another brief stop in Madison, he was on his way to London, then Memphis, to look at complaints about prayer in city hall.

These days Gaylor and Barker are working longer hours than ever, often not coming home until after dinnertime. With Sabrina away to school at the UW-Whitewater, there's no reason to get home early enough for a healthy meal. The couple instead focus on their growing sense of urgency about FFRF's work.

Gaylor sees too many church/state violations and can't fix them all. The noise level - the intensity of the crank calls, four death threats so far this year - is the worst she remembers. "I think things are getting a little unsettled," she says.

Annie Laurie Gaylor and her mother, Anne Gaylor, started the Freedom From Religion Foundation in 1976. It grew out of the reproductive rights movement after the Gaylors saw legislative hearings packed with Catholic nuns, priests and schoolchildren and concluded religion was the root of women's inequality. Anne Gaylor took FFRF national two years later.

The foundation's current repertoire includes legal action, billboards, bus signs, a weekly radio show on Air America, the monthly newsletter Freethought Today, and Barker's national and international lectures and debates. There's also hope for a television show.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation was formed to educate the public about nontheistic belief and promote the separation of church and state. In practice, this has two components: legal action against perceived local, state and federal violations of the First Amendment; and education, including liberal doses of anti-religion rhetoric.

Freethought Today has for years run page after page of "Black Collar Crime Blotter." These are listings of transgressions against morality and public safety committed by clergy.

The term "freethinkers" is an umbrella for atheists, agnostics and rationalists. "To the freethinker," says the group's website, "revelation and faith are invalid, and orthodoxy is no guarantee of truth." Freethinkers test God the way they test any fact, with the scientific method.

FFRF's membership has doubled since 2006, to 14,000, and its staff has increased by 3.5 since October 2008, to a total of eight full-time employees. Its new staff attorney was involved in 20 nativity cases in her first three months and wrote 150 church/state violation letters her first year. The cases generally start with outside contacts, usually emails, about half of which come from FFRF members. School issues are a priority. Recent cases included kindergarteners forced to say prayers and a fifth-grade Bible distribution.

The group operates out of Freethought Hall, a stately 1855 home and former rectory two blocks from the Capitol. The location is not publicized and the doors remain locked, but harassing emails and calls find their way in. "There's a little feeling of being under siege most of the time," says Gaylor, "yet they [theists] say we're assaulting them."

The most virulent emails (see sidebar) and calls come in response to the group's church/state work - "and they are really mad at us," Gaylor says. The most common theme is the suggestion that Gaylor and Barker move somewhere else: Pakistan, China, Siberia, Afghanistan, Canada.

But intense criticism of the foundation is surprisingly broad-based. Madison radio talk-show host Sly, for instance, in September called Gaylor "filthy, rotten, vicious and hate-filled" for purportedly protesting a monument in Chippewa County to a police officer killed in the line of duty that contained a religious message. "Has she now ventured into the territory of harassing dead Christians? This woman has now gone from fringy, atheist activist to terrorist."

"I wonder if that is actionable, calling me a terrorist?" Gaylor wonders. But she has other things to do.

For Gaylor, being at the helm of an advocacy group for nonbelievers is hard work, and she often feels marginalized and demoralized.

She cites a Minnesota poll showing that every minority group in the nation is more widely accepted now than in the 1960s - except atheists. Barker, a former true believer, is not surprised: "When you're talking about somebody's religion, you're talking about who they are. It's like attacking them and their grandma. There's nothing we could possibly say, no matter how gentle, that challenges their beliefs that's going to make them feel good."

The Freedom From Religion Foundation says that its goal is to educate, not just provoke, and that it targets only governments, not people. But, adds Barker, "What's wrong with stirring things up? Isn't that the point of dialogue and free speech? We want to be part of the quilt that makes America America."

Consider the recent controversy over a full-page FFRF ad in the Unitarian Universalist's quarterly magazine. It included six anti-religion quotes, including one in which Clarence Darrow equates God with Mother Goose. Some church members thought the ad mocked all religions; others felt the Unitarians should be thick-skinned enough to take it. The magazine apologized.

The Wisconsin State Journal quoted Gaylor expressing shock at this reaction from a group that includes atheists. But Scott Ulrich, a Unitarian official, wrote that the ad didn't just defend the rights of nontheists, it "negatively and very broadly characterized 'religion"' and 'faith' in ways that were guaranteed to sound to many of our readers like an attack."

Similarly, many of those who fill local churches and synagogues agree with FFRF's advocacy of church/state separation but are angered by its anti-religion billboards and bus signs. After decades of being turned down, the Freedom From Religion Foundation bought its first billboard in Madison in 2007, with the message "Imagine No Religion." Its first exterior bus sign, "Sleep in on Sundays," went up earlier this year.

Now the foundation has billboards all over, including 10 in Albuquerque and eight in Las Vegas. And it has adorned 100 Seattle buses with ads of Santa saying, "Yes Virginia...there is no God."

Gaylor says such efforts are a response to FFRF members who wanted the group to be less ambiguous. Isn't this taking a cue from the Christian right? Gaylor doesn't think so.

"The religious right has billboards with blood on them," she says, "oversized miscarriage objects on their placards talking about 'God says do not kill.' That is gross. There's nothing gross about our bus sign."

As with the Unitarian ads, Gaylor expresses surprise that anyone would be angry about the bus signs. They're "gentle snowball lobs, not a war on Christmas," she says. "If [Christians] are so insecure that they can't even stand that somebody has a bus sign, a funny bus sign saying there's no God, what does that say about their beliefs? They must have a lack of confidence...to be so angry just because there's something saying there are atheists and agnostics in this country and here's our view."

Gaylor urges critics to consider what nonbelievers are expected to endure. "Here we are, crosses everywhere we go, religious signs and steeples, and being preached at and told we're sinners 24/7 on TV and radio," she says. "And for the first time, we are being allowed to market our ideas too, and we have to be very clear about them."

What about tolerance?

"Well, what about it?" she responds. "Nonreligious people in this country are scarcely tolerated. It's considered aggressive to even tell somebody in the context of a conversation about religion that you're an atheist."

Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker grew up at opposite ends of the spiritual spectrum.

Gaylor, a third-generation freethinker on her mother's side, grew up without religion or even much talk about it at home, though she attended church with her paternal grandparents. Barker grew up fundamentalist Christian turned charismatic, singing in the family's evangelical music group.

Gaylor remembers coming home from school in fifth grade and proudly reciting to her mom the Pledge of Allegiance, with its "under God" addition. "I still remember her face, the shock," she says. "She didn't know the pledge had been interfered with."

As a freethinking parent, Anne Gaylor believed in providing a safe, stimulating environment for her children but not indoctrinating them. She was a businesswoman, an early feminist and abortion rights activist, a mother of four who liked Jackie O suits and the smell of Chanel. Anne, who stepped down as FFRF president in 2004, "wasn't Superwoman," her daughter insists; but she was a super role model and a laid-back but devoted parent. "I greatly admired her."

Her mother returns the compliments. "She's very bright," says Anne, now 83. "She is not easily dissuaded. You cannot be a shrinking violet and be a freethinker. She is not a shrinking violet."

Anne is glad that her daughter did not feel a need to fit in: "When you grow up free from religion and the people around you are free from religion or indifferent, to be irreligious seems quite normal."

Barker, in contrast, had been "born again" by the time he was in high school, confessing he was a sinner, accepting the death of Jesus as payment for his sin, and asking Christ into his heart. At 15, he received his call to ministry during a revival meeting in Anaheim, Calif., knowing God was talking directly to him about how to live his life. He started carrying a Bible (sometimes two) to school, preached his first sermon on the dusty bank of a Mexican irrigation canal, and was crushed when a Supreme Court decision ended daily Bible broadcasts into Anaheim classrooms. He won his first soul before his 16th birthday, and later converted his agnostic Spanish teacher.

"I had a star in my crown," he writes in his 2008 autobiography, godless. "Of course, I gave all the credit to the Holy Spirit, but I accepted it as authentication of my calling."

When Gaylor was a sophomore at the UW-Madison, she and her mother and a friend formed the Freedom From Religion Foundation. No one expected it would become a career. By the time she graduated, with a degree in journalism, Annie Laurie had successfully petitioned the university to eliminate prayer from commencement.

Barker studied religion at Azusa Pacific College. He was a soul winner, playing accordion in the park, singing about salvation in restaurants, hiking Mexico for Jesus. He married, had four children, spoke in tongues, faith healed. He was invited to schools that believed religion added moral value. He wrote "Mary Had a Little Lamb," a popular Christian children's musical for which he still gets royalties.

Barker's de-conversion began in 1979, when he realized he could not condemn others who did not take the Bible literally, as his faith instructed. After five years of reassessment, he migrated all the way to atheism. He soon persuaded both of his parents to follow him.

Barker and the Gaylors met in 1984 on Oprah Winfrey's AM Chicago. The Gaylors suggested Barker as a co-guest sight unseen, having heard of his journey. "We felt we had met a kindred non-spirit," jokes Annie Laurie. "I was very impressed with him. My mother was too." They married in 1987.

Gaylor says she's the practical one; Barker is philosophical.

For her, not believing in God is simple: "If something isn't true, you shouldn't believe in it." She refers any detailed theological questions to him.

Barker's lengthy legalistic arguments take the Bible apart phrase by phrase, to decry its claims to truth and morality. He contends that neither God nor Jesus is worthy of emulation. If Christians happen to be good people, he argues, it's despite their religion and not because of it.

Gaylor likes reading newspapers. Barker reads science, history and mythology. She tends a spectacular perennial garden. He loves jazz piano and plays about 110 paid gigs a year with local combos.

"If we can sneak in a movie on the weekend, I'm lucky," Gaylor says. When both are home, he brings her morning coffee in bed, while she finishes the Wisconsin State Journal and The New York Times. With Sabrina gone, he can play piano for a half-hour before work.

Gaylor and Barker both insist they are not focused on religion, though they must be conversant with it. They are encouraged by signs of a growing freethinking base, and such gestures as President Obama referring to "nonbelievers" in his Inaugural.

"I think we make society more interesting, and there are people who appreciate that," Gaylor says. "And on the philosophical side," adds Barker, "the more criticism you get, the more you're being noticed."

Gaylor and Barker are fulfilled in their work. Barker calls it "an emotional thrill fighting for the views our founders fought for." Gaylor sees the Freedom From Religion Foundation as part of creating the great American experiment. "It's been a ride, a blast, as Dan would say. I've enjoyed almost every minute of it."

God is going to strike you dead

A sampling of recent emails (spelling and punctuation not corrected) received by the Freedom From Religion Foundation:

"Take a hike with your f*ckin' lawsuit against In God We Trust! God haters, maggots! - Nedd Kareiva

"Dear Atheists, God is going to strike you dead for messing with religion. When you, your staff or their families have a bad accident, don't say I didn't warn you or that you don't deserve it because you do. You must be stopped at any costs." God's Squad, Jim Franklin

"Just read an article about your long nose sticking into other people's business. (It's going to get broken, you know.) SO, STICKIT WHERE THE GOD MADE SUN DOESN'T SHINE. - A GRY HAIRED GROUCHY OLD S.O.B. P.S. DON'T PICK FIGHTS WITH OLD PEOPLE. YOU WILL NOT WIN. THEY WILL DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE THEN LET GOD SORT YOU OUT."

"JUST WONDER WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? I REALLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOUR CHILDREN. TO BAD THEY'LL BE RAISED BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU. YOU THINK ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS THREATEN WITH A LAW SUITE? I'LL BET YOU THAT IF YOU BELIEVED IN ANYTHING YOUR LIFE WOULDN'T BE SO MISERABLE THAT YOU HAD TO TRY AND SCREW UP EVERYONE ELSES. AND THAT'S MY OPINION." Deborah Lortz

"You Atheists just don't get it! Fuck all you God Haters! Jesus will win in the end! I hope you're happy when this all goes down. Hellfire awaits!" Brad

"I am telling you to stay out of our community. There are plenty of places in this country where people likeyou thrive, places like California where moral decline and crime are running wild. Here in Lake Township WE DO BELIEVE IN GOD! If you want to bring your simple-minded, big bang-gorilla evolving beliefs here to live that's fine. You people need to mind your own business and stay in Wisconsin!" Jeremy Wise

"I just cannot believe that you even are allowed to do the things you do. Do not respond tothis email. I don't want to hear a thing you have to say about what a wonderful world this would be without jesus to believe in. What should we do believ in you???? That is sick." Ann Doty

Comments (20)

From Darrell Barker on 12/18/09 at 1:57 pm

An old addage goes: "An unexamined life is not worth living."

Well then, thank you Ann Grauvogl for "examining" Annie Laurie and Dan. Even though it appears that their lives are already worth living, you've added some more worth to their lives too. You are quite the invesigative and thorough writer. Thanks Ann for doing this expose on them.

I support this group wholeheartedly.

From Steve McConkey on 12/19/09 at 12:47 am

On Monday, we are releasing a news release countering this movement to 1100 news agencies through Christian Newswire in Washington, D.C. I will post the 400 word release here on Monday.
We do not believe the negative emails are from Christians, but people posing as ones. Maybe, they are from people trying to make atheists look like they are persecuted.
I have been a Christian since 1976 and have never met a Christian who would write such emails.
We are concerned for atheists and do not hate them. See our site at UndergroundNews.us.
We are praying. Steve McConkey

From Lowell Skelton on 12/19/09 at 1:18 am

TT, if you hadn't noticed, we're already in the "Potterville" created by your Christian brethren.

Steve, you can be in denial all you want. I guarantee you that the vast majority of those vulgar, hateful e-mails are from Christians. If you were to solicit in-person opinions, you might see the vulgar language cleaned up a little, but the hate would shine through. Do you really believe that any non-Christian would commit a criminal offense of communicating a death threat just to discredit Christians? No, the real persecution is coming FROM Christians. You've apparently been hiding in a cave since 1976, to deny the obvious.

Thank you, Dan and Annie Laurie, for defending the Constitution like true Americans.

From Michael Hunt on 12/19/09 at 5:36 pm

I am a member of the ffrf and a regular listener of their podcast. It's very interesting, entertaining and informative. They sound like such a nice couple and I wish them all the happiness the world has to offer! If you don't believe "christians" are capable of letters like that then you need to get out of the house and meet more people.

From Christopher Bingham on 12/20/09 at 2:59 am

These guys are my heroes! Freethinkers unite!

I'm sorry I missed the convention in my home town.

They're up against a double standard: if you apply the scientifiuc method to someone's belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, most people of faith will have a good chuckle about it. Apply the same yardstick to their Sky Daddy and you're attacking THEM. It's a shame. We all hold onto ideas that become sacred cows, but they either stand up to reason or they don't.

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus… will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter” (letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823).

I look foward to that day, with hope for humanity. I hope everyone has a happy turn of the year!

Last edited: 2009-12-20 03:01:25

From Tom Farley on 12/20/09 at 6:10 pm

Thank you for this detailed article on FFR. I didn't have a deep understanding of their activities - now I get it. Until now I actually tolerated and celebrated the group as one component of many that make Madison so enriching. In fact, during their convention I was interviewed by local media on whether FFR was a good thing for Madison. My response was "certainly"; stating that Madison was unique in it's ability to consider, debate and discuss issues openly, where others do not. To me, it didn't even matter that I was Catholic - this was about Madison.

But that was then. I didn't realize how judgmental these people are, and the depths at which they cannot tolerate others religious views. Based on their logic, it would be perfectly fine for someone who is anti-gay to demand no public references to that lifestyle, no groups in our public schools to discuss preference issues and all-out war on any high school attempting a production of The Laramie Project! The FFR would disagree, hiding as they do behind the separation of church and state. That's fine. But Constitution or not, this logic and thought process is exactly the same. It's judgmental, intolerant and close-minded. And these two probably consider themselves quite intellectual. Guess again.

I did find their complaints of "freethinkers" being so persecuted to be rather humorous though. Taunts and emails? Hey, once you people get thrown to the lions, packed into a gas chamber, live in slavery or are subjected to a few Crusades - then you can cry about persecution. Get real.

From Kenneth Snyder on 12/20/09 at 10:03 pm

Tom:

Thrown to the lions: you were the new kids on the block and were demanding everyone respect your beliefs and abandon their own firmly held beliefs. Leaders who held themselves to be equivalent to gods obviously could not take that lying down.

Packed into a gas chamber: that was your own Catholic church looking away and giving tacit approval to one of your own's final solution to the Jesus killing Jews.

Subjected to the Crusades: I think if you look at the history a little more closely, quite a few groups were subjected to the Crusades, with the christians inflicting most of the crusading on other peoples/beliefs.

Live in slavery: wasn't one of the biggest arguments for allowing slavery the bible's clear approval of people owning other people? After all, God said it was okay, so that must mean its okay. Right?

How about the Inquisition? How much suffering was inflicted on christians then? Maybe we should talk about the Spanish Conquistadors gentle conversion of the Native Americans. What about those Salem witch trials? How about what your church is doing in Africa today. Denying natives the use of condoms which could help the spead of AIDs just because a group of old white men think sex is icky and think it should be used for reproduction only (unless it is between a priest and a small boy or ten, that is).

Religious nuts can go far beyond taunts and emails. All religions (and yes, atheists too) have long histories of atrocities. It doesn't take much to convince some that they are doing god's work and thus rationalize their way to commiting atrocities to further their own religious belief. All death threats should be treated as something real.

One part you should pay close attention to though is the part that talks about seeing crosses, churches, and other christian symbols everywhere, hearing nonstop references to thanking god, praying to god, and many other clear references to christianity, then saying something as innocuous as "I'm an atheist" and everyone around you screams about you attacking their religion. You'll never appreciate the irony of christians screaming about the attack on christianity or christmas until you can separate yourself from your own religious beliefs and live like we atheists do. We can't escape the religion being shoved down our throats, but if we utter one sentence that expresses disagreement with religious views, or put up a billboard, or place a sign on a bus, we are being intolerant of religion.

From Tom Farley on 12/21/09 at 10:42 am

Seriously Ken - WTF? I had simply pointed out that these two FFR leaders were crying about, as you reiterate, "being screamed at by christians". Yet when contrasting their "persecution" to real atrocities suffered by people of faith - you retort that, based on the histories of every religion - they all deserved it?.

Well, I do know that a core belief in christian faiths is to not judge others (though practicing that belief is often hard). I guess the difference here is that "freethinkers" feel they can judge anyone and their beliefs - and are therefore justified in attacking those people and their beliefs all they want.

Maybe that's Madison's dirty little secret - that just below its "open, cheerful and embracing" surface lies a community that is heavily judgmental and intolerant. Just ask anyone with a McCain sticker on their car, lives in a large house or "rich" neighborhood or doesn't drive the right car.

As I said from the start, maybe Madison is the perfect place for FFR. Then again, maybe our community could become the truly open and embracing place we think it is without groups like FFR. I'll let you judge, Ken.

From Steve McConkey on 12/21/09 at 11:39 am

The news release critical of FFR has been released. It can be found on a link at www.UndergroundNews.us

Steve McConkey

Last edited: 2009-12-21 11:40:49

Last edited: 2009-12-21 11:41:33

From Kenneth Snyder on 12/21/09 at 2:26 pm

Tom,

I did not say nor imply that anyone has ever deserved persecution for their beliefs. I simply pointed out that many of the persecutions you pointed to were actually inflicted by christians on people with other beliefs. The one instance of true christian persecution you mentioned was inflicted by those with a different religious belief and seems to be the normal course for people who don't have the same religious beliefs.

As a side note, has any of these things actually been done to you or anyone you know? No one I know has ever truly suffered for their religious beliefs. People without a belief in god must either hide their true beliefs or resign themselves to the fact that it is almost impossible for them to ever hold elected office. Some even have to hide their nobelief from friends and family or risk being ostracized. How about you? Can you be open to everyone regarding your religious beliefs?

Also, as I stated, we face religion everywhere we look. We have elected officials trying to force their own religious beliefs on us through passing laws which coincide with what they believe is right. Gays are denied rights because of the writings of superstitious people from more than 2000 years ago. We are told we shouldn't celebrate christmas because its a religious holiday by people who aren't smart enough to do the most basic research and realize that the celebration of Saturnalia held at the winter solstice predates "christmas", resulting in a lot of gods being born on Dec. 25 to coincide with the "rebirth" of the sun. The evergreen trees we all put up in our homes come from Babylonian traditions. The church co-opted this celebration to get pagan converts. But we are told it is a religious holiday.

A christian can never say that nontheists can't claim persecution by pointing out their own so-called persecution without showing themselves to be hypocrites.

From Tom Farley on 12/21/09 at 7:30 pm

OK, that's it for me. Two opportunities to "enlighten" me are all you get. If you'll forgive me, your arguments have no logical or intellectual reasoning. I was schooled in conjecture and refutation - not street corner philosophy. I'll leave you this quote from Kant:

"Much as my words may startle you, you must not condemn me for saying: every man creates his God. From the moral point of view...you even HAVE to create your God, in order to worship in Him your creator. For in whatever way ...the Deity should be made known to you, and even ... if He should reveal Himself to you: it is you... who must judge whether you are permitted [by your conscience] to believe in Him, and to worship Him." KANT

Simply put -you overstep your moral bounds by judging the faith of anyone beyond yourself. Which leaves the actions of FFR to simply appear anti-social and work counter to the enrichment of a community.

From jennifer simpsons on 12/21/09 at 9:50 pm

Why try to ruin Christmas for so many? American is a Christian country and freedom of speech or not – it's an outrage to blatantly try to ruin the holiday spirit for millions of people. These terrible people are proselytizing – isn't that what they're against? Look at this! http://tictacdo.com/ttd/Become-an-Atheist - step by step instructions on how to reject Jesus. What a crying shame... targeting our youth directly.

From Kenneth Snyder on 12/22/09 at 1:53 am

Tom:

I know you won't read this, but for the benefit of those others that might read this, I say this. I am not seeking to enlighten you. I am pointing out your rather sketchy "facts." You list many persecutions suffered by believers, without saying that many of those persecutions were christians oppressing people with different beliefs. Then Ipointed out that you yourself nor anyone you know is likely to have suffered these persecutions personally. Then I touched on the persecutions atheists face, from not being electable tolosing family and friends simply because of our nonbelief.

You are right, I've only had one course in philosophy, as I thought studying courses more closely related to my major would be more helpful. However, even that intro course taught me that any argument based on incorrect presumptions is an invalid argument. Your presumption in you original post was that atheists have not suffered "real" persecution. So, if you do read this, tell me when it has ever been okay to be an atheist in any part of the world before the 20th century. We have always been considered dangerous and worthy to be killed in a most torturous fashion, regardless of whatever religion held sway in the surrounding area.

Jennifer:

What "these people" are against is religious displays on government property and in public schools. You are free to decorate your home inside and out however you wish. As are your neighbors, your family and everyone else. Religious displays on government property are an all or nothing deal. Because of the Establishment clause, no religion may be favored. If you let a nativity scene be put up, you must allow anyone else's religion to erect displays too. Imagine seeing only Muslim or Jewish displays at your local courthouse. I'm sure that would be okay with you, right?

As mentioned in the article, and my other posts, christmas is not a christian holiday only. Its earliest roots were with the pagans, long before jesus was born. In an effort to gain pagan converts as the church expanded, they adopted the holiday and made it about the birth of jesus.

As to America being a christian nation, explain to me why the one document that holds any legal standing in our country, the Constitution, does not mention religion other than to say the government shall not establish a religion and there shall be no religious test for a person holding public office. The Declaration of Independence mentions a creator, but that has no legal standing, and hardly an endorsement of christianity. Many of our founding fathers were deists and rejected christianity. Their letters are pretty easy to find and read these days, if you can tear yourself away from your bible for a short time.

Lastly, targeting our youth directly? Seriously? Do you have children? How many people in your church let their children decide for themselves? As early as possible, churches begin indoctrinating children as young as 2 or 3, Jesus loves the little children. All those wonderful little stories that talk about how wonderful Jesus is. Then as they grow up, subtle reminders creep in to "trust in the lord with all thine heart and lean not unto your own understanding. in all thy way acknowledge him." Then after they are filled with the child's version of Jesus and the admonishment to not think about what they are told, you sneak in the zinger. If you turn away from god, you'll be tortured for eternity in a lake of fire, because god loves you but he can't stand rejection.

On the other hand, most atheists will allow their children to make up their own minds. My own children go to church fairly regularly. I do not denigrate religion in their presence. What I do is talk to them about the fact that some people have different religious beliefs and some have none at all. I am also teaching them to think critically and to never accept something as truth simply because someone said or wrote it. I know they will grow up and make their own choice about religion when they are ready to do so, and whatever choice they make, it will not be to be like me or anyone else. It will be because it is what they believe. Now how many christians would be willing to let their children grow up before they are asked to figure out their religious beliefs, with all the information, rather a very limited, biased view.

From Kenneth Snyder on 12/22/09 at 2:15 am

Jennifer:

On an unrelated note, you don't have to put in your location, but if you do, and wish for it to be believable, you might want to be able to spell Massachusetts. It is hard to believe "masacheusets" is simply a typo.

This is not an ad hominem attack, your location has nothing to do with your argument. I just wanted to point out that you should be able to spell the state you want to claim to live in.

Happy holidays and season's greetings to you.

From Dewey Brockman on 12/23/09 at 8:11 pm

I couldn't help but notice that all the ffrf supporters posting here are newbies who joined up JUST to proclaim their support for the foundation.

Good to hear y'all got the email.

From Tom Farley on 12/24/09 at 9:37 am

Ken,

"I know you won't read this, but" - great passive-aggressive opening. In any event, my frustration with dialogues such as this is that it becomes quickly evident when people are "listening to respond, rather than listen to understand". My entire point was in illustrating the illogical nature of these arguments. I had used more commonly accepted definitions of persecution (such as the Holocaust) to illustrate that the "persecutions" which FFR uses to validate their actions seem somewhat weaker in comparison. Going into the histories of all those examples I used were completely irrelevant to the very simple point I was making.

Again, I was talking logic (and not philosophy). My reference to conjecture and refutation simply means that I am constantly testing my beliefs and knowledge against new information and differing view points. The result is either a strengthening of my beliefs or a refining of those beliefs.

The most clarifying example of this is process is how it enabled me to continually define my political beliefs. As a life-long, unquestioning Republican (National Review subscription and all), it wasn't until I began evaluating and testing political philosophies that I came to understand that at some point I had become in fact, a Democrat. Once, there was no greater evil to me than Bobby Kennedy. Then I began testing that belief (reading dozens of books, viewing documentaries, etc.) Today, Bobby Kennedy is my political hero. Bar none.

So, it's pretty evident to me when people are listening only to respond. When confronted by people in the process of testing and questioning beliefs, or pursuing information and knowledge - they simply hear differing view points. They make quick judgments, they attack, and ultimately; they simply label those people as intolerant. And they never understood a thing the other person was trying to say or learn.

From Kenneth Snyder on 12/26/09 at 11:22 pm

You've finally gotten through to me. It's the FFRF's intolerance and judgement of those people who practice intolerance, bigotry, and hatred towards others who don't share their beliefs that bothers you. Yeah, maybe the FFRF should just be more tolerant of those types and just let them practice their own beliefs, even though it steps on the beliefs of others.

They aren't trying to abolish religion, just eliminate it from the public square or at least provide an even playing field for all belief systems. How intolerant of them.

From Doug McLain on 12/28/09 at 10:00 am

It is sad when others try to force something on you that you do not want. Religion isn't something to be forced, it is something to be embraced. For those of us that embrace it, we are proud of our relationship with God. God does not need our permission to exist, HE IS....

From Lisa Avancena on 12/30/09 at 11:52 am

I personally have no qualms against people who are atheists - just people who are intolerant. Believers AND non-believers are very much guilty of this. I am of the Catholic faith and have gone to Catholic schools all my life. Yet I have experienced a lot of prejudice against my faith, though some commentors seem to think Christians do not receive any kind of “persecution” in today’s world. I understand that atheists can have a bad rap (and they are a minority group). But I will say there are also plenty of people who make a lot of bad assumptions about those who believe in God.

From Pieter Koedijk on 04/24/10 at 8:35 am

Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.

COVER STORY

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