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From ABC News online:

BAGHDAD, Iraq Apr 21, 2005 -- A commercial helicopter contracted by the U.S. government was shot down by missile fire north of the Iraqi capital Thursday, killing at least nine people, including six American contractors, officials said.

More info below...

The Americans were from Blackwater.

The six Americans worked for security contractor Blackwater USA, the U.S. Embassy said. The North Carolina-based contracting firm provides security for State Department officials in Iraq.

It was unclear whether the civilians' employers were under contract to the Pentagon or the State Department, U.S. officials in Washington said.

Last year, four Blackwater employees were killed in Fallujah, and their bodies were burned and mutilated. Two of the corpses were strung up on a bridge over the Euphrates River. [...]

The Mi-8 helicopter went down about 12 miles north of Baghdad, the U.S. Embassy said. Video on television showed burning wreckage from the Russian-built craft and personal belongings scattered across a wide area.

The helicopter was owned by Bulgaria-based Heli Air and chartered by Toronto-based SkyLink Aviation Inc., said SkyLink air operations manager Paul Greenaway. The helicopter was flying to Tikrit, he said.

Greenaway said the six Americans were "doing some sort of security work." He said the victims included three Bulgarian crew members and two security guards from Fiji.

Per Reuters, the death toll was 11, not 9:

The Russian-built Mi-8 helicopter was hit by a rocket- propelled grenade as it flew over a deserted area north of Baghdad, Bulgarian officials and the U.S. military said. It was believed to be the first downing of a civilian aircraft in Iraq.

A militant group said it had shot down the helicopter.

"The Islamic Army in Iraq claims responsibility for bringing down a ... cargo aircraft and killing all those on board," said the short posting on a Web site often used by Iraqi rebels, adding a full statement and video would follow.

The authenticity of the brief statement could not be verified but it was posted by a user who often releases statements from the group.

Originally posted to baldandy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:23 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

50 comments | Permalink

  •  Might I add... (4.00)
    ...I hope Kos nor anyone else does the "f-k them" statement this time.

    That said, though this was a commercial helicopter, these Blackwater types are not "civilian" casualties in my mind.

    by baldandy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:13:15 AM PDT

    •  you sum up my thoughts (none)
      very well.

      by Elizabeth D on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:16:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They are mercs (4.00)
      Unfortunate as it is they died, we should be clear—these were mercenaries. Not construction workers, not people there to rebuild infrastructure, not there to provide humanitarian aid. They were for-hire soldiers in a war zone. Mercenaries.

      I think it's important to properly identify them, because part of the Bushco movement to privatize war includes whitewashing the role of the mercenaries. It's one step beyond our Vietnam-era newspeak use of "military advisors".

      GOP: Party before Country
      Puppethead

      by puppethead on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:21:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They aren't "civilians" (3.66)
      They are mercenaries.  They are being paid big money to take the risk of going to a war zone and getting shot at. Our soldiers are also going to a war zone and being shot at, but they aren't getting paid anything near what these men made.  

      I'm not callous about their deaths, I don't *want" anybody to die, and certainly nobody deserves to die for wanting to make a living.  But I am sympathetic to the feelings Markos had at the reaction to the previous "civilian" death's in Iraq.  I imagine that there is some resentment among military (and former military) personnel at the fact that people are being paid lots more money than they make for taking what are (overall) less risks than they take, making our soldiers, in effect, second class citizens.  And when the reaction to the death of a mercenary is greater than the reaction to the death of a soldier, it is a sad reflection on the true status of soldiers in our country.

      by dianem on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:21:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Private Security forces (4.00)
      The argument Kos made about private security forces damaging the credibility of uniformed US forces and endangering the GIs remains true today.

      1/3 of all SS payments go to surviving children and the disabled.

      by joejoejoe on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:24:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Regardless (4.00)
      they are someone's family members.

      by kredwyn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:55:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True (4.00)
        I am a family member also of a person who served in Iraq and who will most likely be doing that again soon.  My husband is an officer and he makes more than most people dodging bullets over there.  I also know more than a couple of people who have ditched their uniform to work for "security companies" over there and make BIG MONEY and exercise their sick sociopathic tendencies.  Most were special forces.  We kind of have a joke in the military about who our daughters can date, everybody but special forces.  Then there is that other joke that goes on about how the housing and training facilities for special forces are kept far away from the general military population, and then there's the final joke about how if you flunk your psych testing you can always train for special forces.  I get too windy sometimes, so let me try to be short and sweet.  The only fucking people who need to run around Iraq with automatic weapons and working for "our side" for any reason whatsofuckingever are people who answer to our military chain of fucking command and thereby the American voter and taxpayer and thereby follow the Geneva Convention to the fucking letter. If you had any idea how much these MERCs disgust and sicken honest military folk!!!  It is no accident that these guys ended up hanging from a bridge in Fallujah or that their chopper was shot down.  THESE FUCKERS ARE NOT NICE PEOPLE.  I have a hard time feeling sorry for their families.  I have known a few of these wives and if they are in the marriage they are so high on Prozac and Xanax they will barely know he's gone.  Most are so gone from the marriage, hell, they may have a SAVED BY GOD AND RELEASED FROM HELL party.  These are not nice people in any way, shape, or form.  They have done horrible disgusting things over there that are going to curl our hair and crisp our brains when we get the whole skinny someday.  I am personally disgraced and sickened that my country has these "THINGS" running around that country making more money than God and doing things that SATAN has only dreamed of!  If one of their mommas is crying I'm somewhat sorry but I really want to ask that woman why she never got any help for her son, who was obviously a potential serial killer!  I lay some of what that man became on her and his father's doorstep.  I have almost no tears for these people.  I can barely squeeze one out.

        by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:34:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I read your post... (none)
          and I hear what you're saying. My contact with the military is mostly through the a reservist group out of MI currently serving in Iraq and a friend who flew helicopters in the 82nd before becoming a computer geek. I don't know any of the contractor types you're talking about.

          But all I said was that they had familes. There was no need to jump down my throat for reiterating what someone further up the thread said in many more words. I didn't add any sort of value judgement at all.

          There are people in between the contractors and the military who are there trying to do their job. We hear very little about them beyond the results of their inspection teams and the congressional reports.

          At the moment, I have a friend who is working in Iraq as part of a civilian DoD team. And he carries a weapon when his team goes out. The last I heard from him was last week. I haven't heard from him in over a week. While I hear that's generally expected, the last time it happened...he let me know he was going to be gone for a while. This guy normally emails on a regular basis to check in. And I haven't heard from him. So maybe I'm a little sensitive at the moment.

          But yeah...I'm a bit concerned.

          All I was doing was reiterating what'd already been said.

          by kredwyn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 04:03:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  My friend. (none)
          My apologies to everyone (especially to baldandy whose page this is) for posting this a second time, but I just now realized that I have to actually click "reply" to another post for that poster to get mine.  I didn't do that the first  time and I want Tracy to get this, as that I think she's moved on to other topics.  Thank you for your patience everyone.

          -Jim

          I am a veteran of Iraq. I served in and around Baghdad, mostly doing convoy security from 2003 through 2004.  My rank was specialist and I was in the military police.
          I had a friend that was killed in Iraq.  He died 12 miles north of Baghdad.  

          His name was Jason Gore.  He was in 1st platoon and I was in 2nd.  Well, his name was actually Robert Jason Gore, but he went by Jason.  He was 23 when he died.  

          You know, I liked him a lot, I really did.  He was nice, smart, kind, brave and many other things that some people struggle their whole lives to be.  He was good at teaching other soldiers how to perform their different tasks more efficiently and safely.  Hell, Jason may have even been better then me when it came to knowledge and ability with crew-served weapons.  I never owned up to it before because I was too proud to be second best.  But Jason was my better.  

          Did you know that he wanted to be an astronaut when he was a kid?  I didn't.  Not until after he was killed.  He was so smart and so dedicated, he could have if he wanted to.  Well, around the time when he was a sophmore in highschool, he transfered to a military academy because he decided to go military like his dad did.  Jason loved his country.  He had an American flag hanging in his dorm room when he went to college.  And this was before September 11th when displaying the flag became so popular.  He joined the Iowa Army National Guard before that day too.

          In college, he studied physics and worked to pay his bills.  He was known by his classmates as a real fine student.  Hell, sometimes I have to take my boots off to count to twenty, but this kid could do it all.  

          Now, I remember him when he first got in.  I have to laugh, thinking about it.  He looked like such a little kid then, walking around in his uniform.  He still looked like a kid when he died, but that thought makes me cry.

          Well, I got out of the Guard in December of '01.  My contract was up.  It was in January of '03 when I decided to get back in because I knew my company would be going to the potential war that was looming in Iraq.  I got in just under the wire.  By February, I was on my way with my old buddies and some new ones.  One of which was Jason.

          When you spend a year in a place like that, the people you were with become family to you.  They are and will remain closer to me than my own flesh and blood.  Even the ones that I did not really like.  I don't understand it, but that's the way it is.  Jason was one of the ones I liked pretty well.

          Jason was like I said.  He was kind, brave, smart and the whole bit.  He would share whatever he had with you.  He actually liked the locals, I think.  He took the time to learn how to speak their language.  I pride myself at my ability with languages, but Jason had me there as well.  He was so damn smart.  He had a soft spot for the kids, just like a lot of the rest of us.  He'd give them food, water, candy and the like.  He watched your back on the roads and streets of Iraq like a hawk.  I was always comfortable having him around.  I knew I could count on him no matter what.

          We returned to home after a year in Iraq.  It was April of '04.  I'm sure Jason's little brother, mom and dad were glad to see him come home.  All our families were glad.  When we came home, we weren't the same.  In that year, we experienced a life time of things.  Hell, I was 25 at the time and my facial hair was starting to turn silver by the time I came home.  We had aged beyond our years, some of us.  A lot of it was from the stress.  For some, it was the bad things they saw.  For a small few of us, it was combat.  Jason never had to fire a shot the whole time he was in Iraq.  Some of us weren't so fortunate.  But I think Jason came out all right.  I smile when I think about what a kid he still looked like, even when he was caked in dust and sand over there.

          Surprisingly, we haven't been called back to duty yet since we've been home.  I expected we'd be back by now.  But it will come, I'm sure.  Sometime.  But a couple of my buddies decided to return without us.  Jason was one of them.  He was granted inactive status from the Guard so that he could take a six month contract with Blackwater.  It was good money for doing some of the same things we had done at E-4 pay for the Army while we had been there.  Hell, it was better than his E-5 pay he would get since he'd been promoted to Sergeant.  I was happy for him.  When he got back, he was going to finish out his college up in Wisconsin, then probably go active duty.  He wanted to be a Green Beret, like his father was.  He never got the chance.

          Jason died on April 21st 2005 when his helicopter was shot down 12 miles north of Baghdad.  He was enroute to Tikrit so he could work protecting American diplomats.

          I saw the video the terrorists took of the downed chopper after it had burned up.  I saw the two bodies of human beings burnt into that painful posture that only comes from being burnt alive.  I couldn't help but wonder if one of those things was my friend.  I hope he died as soon as that missle hit, because when the explosion comes and everything goes black, your hope and your future feel like they collapse up inside of you.  I know, from when my humvee got his by a roadside bomb once.  It's the greatest feeling in the world when you survive that, but Jason didn't get that chance.  I just hope he didn't die feeling that awful feeling.  I hope he didn't die burning.

          I stumbled across this page and I read some of the things that some of you had to say.  Some of the things I read disgusted me.  Particularly Military Tracy's comments.  I read all these things and I got angry and I cried.  But in the end, I decided that you people should know about my friend Jason Gore.  He was a better person than I could ever hope to be.  

          And Tracy, it's okay that you have no tears for people like my friend, because I have plenty.

          by Iraq Veteran on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 10:43:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes (none)
        And Hitler had a sister.

        This aggression will not stand, man

        by kaleidescope on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:10:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is an interesting statement (4.00)
    "the six Americans were 'doing some sort of security work.'"

    That's not the usual effective spin language.

    My book Growing Up Red is now available at bn.com, amazon.com, and iUniverse.com.

    by ColdFusion04 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:18:28 AM PDT

  •  blackwater admits to another death in addition (none)
    According to a statement released on the blackwaterusa website another employee was killed by a roadside bomb. that brings the amount of civilian contractor deaths to 19 (according to the iraq coalition causalties website)this month. thats ten less then the amount of uniform troop deaths. Perhaps this is a trend, that being the larger role of civilian contractors in Iraq, as the white house seeks to perhaps concentrate on other aspects of the "war on terrorism."

    by mikey9865 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:35:42 AM PDT

  •  Shot down by (none)
    what? Might it be one of the 4,000 shoulder fired SAMs that went missing because we went to war with the army we had, not the army we'd like to have?  Those missiles have a nice value on the world black market,  and increased the supply out of government control by 200%.

    Thank you, Mssrs. Bush and Rumsfeld, especially once one of those is used to shoot down a civilian airliner in the US, not a mercenary transport in Iraq.

    ps: Why are 'Murican companies using Commie copters, anyways?  Can't the contracts at least specify that equipment be chartered from US companies and use US built equipment?  It is my money (or at least my children's money) paying for it.  

    Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

    by Peter VE on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:52:17 AM PDT

    •  what sort of contract (none)
      What sort of contract do these mercs sign?

      Could their families sue the US for endangering them by incompetently not directing our troops not to secure the weapons that brought down that helicopter? Not being a lawyer at all, I suppose, though, the mercs' families would have to establish that the weapons were from those that the WH let slip.

      Of course, the mercs probably sign their lives away, although I imagine not as surely as our troops do.

      we gonna smash their brains in / cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em -- Linton Kwesi Johnson

      by Karl the Idiot on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:30:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How many insults will it take (4.00)
    For Americans to finally put an end to this theft of American taxes. The mercenaries are paid by the American taxpayers.. By doing so, we are insulting every soldier, every vet who protected our pampered asses. They make up to $1,000 per day, it has been suggested. Friends of the bush family and the powers-that-be, raping the American taxpayer. They lied to take America into this money making adventure. The taxpayers are looking the other way as the American public is being robbed blind, right into the poor house. The taxpayers are paying these politicans to rob them. ONLY in America, no wonder why the World is laughing at us.

    by whyBushwhy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:57:12 AM PDT

    •  Thank You (none)
      For this post!  We are a military family and we are disgraced by this stuff in more ways than one!  The money!  The fact that they wear uniforms and LOOK like us!  The fact that they have done horrors over there......just flat out fucking horrors!  We are utterly disgraced!!!!

      by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:36:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  mercs (none)
    Mercs are basically soldiers fighting for our cause that happen to have a different contract than other soldiers.

    Why there should be different contracts and different modes of command is an internal issue of American armed forces.  Externally, these are folks that our command send in the harms way.

    Now, we may disagree about the validity of "our cause", the choice of methods to wage war etc., but these disagreements are with the entire Administration, not the folks on the ground --- especially if they hit the ground in the most tragic way.

    by Piotr on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:00:41 AM PDT

    •  Something about (none)
      Some of these mercenaries being paid 10 times the pay or more, pisses me off. The fact that their bosses, and their coporations skimming even more from the pockets of taxpayers appalling. The fact that there are kickbacks to the powers-that-be disgusting. All at taxpayers expenses. Then they try to cut Vets benefits, they cut benefits to our own needy. THEY CUT money for education, how dumb do they need us. They seem to have us, right where they want us. The politicans guilty as charged, the fact that the American public is allowing this to go on, quite disgusting to say the least. We have rights, we have duties, this was given to us by our founding fathers.

      by whyBushwhy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:09:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Having Bremer, Dan Senor and high US officials (none)
        guarded by mercenaries instead of US troops really sent the wrong message. Why? Are not US troops trained well enough, or trustworthy enough to be guarding Neocon-bushco muckity-mucks?

        Blackwater Inc paid $25M to protect Bremer in Iraq.

        by shumard on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:39:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Protecting (none)
          higher ups is one thing that Blackwater has done.  It isn't what they were doing in Fallujah that day though!  Bringing up the fact that they protect our higher ups is used as a cover.  That probably wouldn't get the public upset, it sounds kind of GOOD in a way.  That is a drop in the bucket of everything that they do over there!!!  It's a smoke screen!

          by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:02:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  morality (4.00)
      There is a world of difference between:

      Fighting for your country (soldier)

      and

      Fighting for money (mercenary).

      The 4th Estate is America's 5th Column.

      by voltayre on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:16:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You obviously (none)
      do not understand what these MERCs do over there, and you obviously don't understand that they answer to a for profit corporation for the deeds they do and not our command.  They need no conscience and they are specifically chosen often for their lack of conscience.  WAKE UP EVERYBODY!!!!!!!  Hanging from a bridge, getting your chopper shot down.........it isn't an accident they were targeted!!! In the case of Fallujah, it isn't an accident that their deaths were so grisly.

      by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:40:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "die motherfucker" (none)
        was a song of regular soldiers.

        We do not have devils and angels but people who are paid to guard, and, if needed, kill and destroy.

        Regular soldiers often enlist with some monetary gains in mind.  Mercs obviously got a better deal, but this is not THEIR fault.

        On the other hand, I would prefer to count mercs in our combat losses, do not call attacks on mercs "terrorism", those are hostilities, actions of the enemy, but not "terrorism", and it was clearly abusive to call their deaths "killing of the defenceless civilians".

        As far as morality is concerned, Rumsfeld is most responsible of them all.  

        by Piotr on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:49:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  US taxpayers pay out mercenary death benefits? (none)
    I have heard that US organized mercenary firms employing (mostly former special forces) US citizens hired under US contract or subcontract, have their term life insurance policies  underwritten (paid for) by US Govt. If they die, US govt (US taxpayers) in effect pays the death benefit.

    Can anyone confirm/discount or add further information concerning this rumor?  

    by shumard on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:05:28 AM PDT

    •  defense base act (4.00)
      What is the Defense Base Act?

      Established in 1941, the primary goal of the Defense Base Act was to cover workers on military bases outside the United States. The act was amended to include public works contracts with the government for the building of non-military projects such as dams, schools, harbors, and roads abroad. A further amendment added a vast array of enterprises revolving around the national security of the United States and its allies. Today, almost any contract with an agency of the U.S. government, for work outside the U.S., whether military in nature or not, will likely require Defense Base Act coverage.
      Who Requires DBA Coverage?

      1. Any employee working on a military base or reservation outside the U.S.
      2. Any employee engaged in U.S. government funded public works business outside the U.S.
      3. Any employee engaged in a public works or military contract with a foreign government which has been deemed necessary to U.S. National Security.
      4. Those employees that provide services funded by the U.S. government outside the realm of regular military issue or channels.
      5. Any employees of any sub-contractors of the prime or letting contractor involved in a contract like numbers 1-4 above
      http://www.defensebaseact.com
      Global Underwritters, is the main provider of this defense base act insurance, however, it does not state on the web page overtly if they are subsidized by the US gov. ill try and see if i can find out more info.

      by mikey9865 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:27:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  representing america (4.00)
    my issue lies in the fact that these "mercenaries" are a rouge element that do not have to adhere to any military law or any higher ranking officers. considering the mercenaries are made up of retired seals, and special op's who spent most of their careers training and never being able to use their training. the fact that they suffer from "military blue balls" and they operate autonomously is a very scary thought in that they do in fact represent america.

    by mikey9865 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:07:47 AM PDT

    •  Invisible casualties (none)
      The DOD doesn't report them in the regular casualty lists. So far 227 "contractors" have been killed and God knows how many wounded. It's a secret army that no one is truly accountable for. Eventually Bush will have to pull out regular troops, but he'll just replace them with " contractors" who answer only to their patrons and whose actions can be disavowed by the military.

      "We are all worms. But I do believe I am a glow-worm" Winston Churchill

      by Duke1676 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:00:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I realize this is an american website (4.00)
    but let's not forget the Bulgarians who died in the shoot down as well.  

    Pax

    Night and day, you can find me Flogging the Simian

    by Soj on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:23:39 AM PDT

  •  Blackwater just received a contract: (4.00)
    To increase their presence in Iraq.
    They e-mailed  a request on April 15, 2005 for those who might be interested in working security for them.  (Join their mailing list. they send some very interesting stuff)

    JOB OPPORTUNITIES
    On April 15, 2005 Blackwater Security Consulting (BSC) was awarded orders under a Blanket Purchase Agreement through the PCO-Contracting Activity in Baghdad and will begin security operations on May 1, 2005 at the following locations: Mosul, Kirkuk, Tikrit, Ramadi and Baqubah".......

    Due to the need for a rapid and robust rotation of personnel and equipment, it will be necessary for security personnel to commit to their intent within 48 hours (17 April 2005, 1200 EST). What is needed from incumbent security personnel is a one page resume with contact information and with an acknowledgment that they want to continue working at those sites.

     It looks like we'll be seeing more from Blackwater in the future. The need for these kind of trained mercenaries will only increase as enlistment numbers continue to go down for the regular military

    "We are all worms. But I do believe I am a glow-worm" Winston Churchill

    by Duke1676 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:38:51 AM PDT

  •  heres a thought (none)
    is it better to hire more merc's or instate a draft?

    by mikey9865 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:08:47 PM PDT

    •  That's apples and oranges (none)
      Mercs are not soldiers.  You got it all mixed up man!  They aren't accountable to the Geneva Convention.  So long as their boss doesn't have a problem with what they are doing they do what they want.  They can't be court martialed, only fired.......maybe charged but hey, they are in a foreign country so that's doubtful.  It isn't the same thing.  I bet if you made the same pay increase to regular soldiers our recruitment would go way way way up........and they would be accountable people!

      by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:13:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  misunderstood (none)
        is it better to hire more merc's to accomplish the Bush agenda (Iran,syria,pax americana) which i believe most disagree with here, or draft our children to help out in something for which we dont believe in.

        by mikey9865 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:19:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry about that (none)
          Look, things are broken now.  This is still your country though and it is still your military!  Take it back.  Fight for it back!!!  Fight now!!  We are already in Iraq.  It is done and it is broken!  Take you nation back!  Sanity has a way of breeding more sanity.  If we demand sanity in one place it won't match up very well with the insanity of another.  We will always have a military and unless something beautiful blesses earth we will always need some type of military as a deterrant at the very least.  My husband wears the uniform.  He has vowed to protect this democracy no matter who the Commander in Chief is.......so take back the Commander in Chief spot!  For God's sake though........Bush is going to be gone one day.  Dear God please don't let people wearing something that resembles our precious military run around doing horrors to already beaten down people.  It will take far longer to remove that from people's souls than that dung heap Bush! It is just disgusting!!!  It is beyond disgusting!!

          by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:25:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  P.S. (none)
      With this chain of thought you must be a Republican attempting to throw off the diary!

      by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:16:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It is better (none)
      to put an end to the war, and an end to the career of the politicans that lied to create this disaster. It is better to put an end to the media that covers this war, and sugar coats what we see and hear. Support our troops, bring them home, and hold the politicans accountable, THAT is the least we can do for our troops.

      by whyBushwhy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:47:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The total sum (none)
    If one spent a wee bit of time reseaching just a few of the alleged abuses that these Mercs have been accused of.....it may become somewhat clear as to what is going on over there.  There was a recent article also about two officers who went to work for a "security firm" over there and quit shortly thereafter horrified by some of the things that had taken place.  They were working convoy security and the other Mercs opened fire on all sorts of people who were even close to the convoy....nothing provoked.  I guess they were just making certain that they were all going to be safe, so they killed everybody in their path.  They aren't our military, they aren't held accountable for these kinds of actions, it just happens.  They wear uniforms that look like they are U.S. soldiers.  How could any Iraqi know the difference between a U.S. soldier and a Merc?  This is all so horrible.  I really really really want people to understand what is going on over there with the Mercs.  People have to get it!  Horrors are taking place!

    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:11:01 PM PDT

    •  Please do a diary on this. (none)
      I've been active on dkos for a few months and haven't done a real research-based diary. It sounds like you are aware of some articles and anecdotes I haven't seen here yet. Please put them in a diary if you have the time/inclination.

      by nuttymango on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 03:07:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I love my Party (none)
    I love my party, they are the best people in the world.  You guys are petrified though about military discussions.  What can be done?  We love our lives and wives, our children, we love the world........WE HATE WARS!  One is going on though right now and we didn't ask for it, not at all!  Damn it though I feel like you guys turn your backs on the reality, and in doing so your military feels like it can't trust you and this party has deserted them.  They would rather trust the fucking Republicans who paste them up on Fox News and parade them around like circus monkeys and treat them like whores! It wasn't always this way either but I'm not old enough to remember when it was different!  I talk about the military reality on this board and it just goes silent.  WHAT THE FUCK!  My husband has vowed to fight for you too if it ever came to that, if it was ever needed.  Does that mean so little to you all?  Do you really believe that you would never have any real need for such a thing?  Planet earth is always going to breed some crazy rule the world lunatic and your democracy and country are really  juicy.  We have everything here.......like a big fat peach hanging on the tree.  It would take some global dictator about half a second to decide to have it if you didn't have a military he would have to contend with.  THAT'S THE FACTS OF LIFE  and the first fight that I ever had with my husband when we were dating!  You guys have got to fight for these guys from your end too!  COME ON!!!

    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:43:38 PM PDT

    •  I spent 9 years in the USAF. (none)
      This is gonna be a long horrible battle I'm afraid. Both the battle in Iraq and the battle in our own country. The USAF, even when I left in 1994, had been infiltrated by fundamentalist wackos.

      Now, the Commandant of Cadets at the USAF Academy, where I spent 4 years, is a fundamentalist wacko. You may have seen the news stories recently about fundamentalist cadets harassing non-Christian cadets.

      Yup. It's a real mess. Thanks again for your comments on the Blackwater mercs. Americans really need to hear about it.

      by nuttymango on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 03:14:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why to recommend this thread (none)
    The passion of the posters here, for one.
    The issues covered here, are important to the health of our country for another.
     Too many threads that distact from key issues may allow a thread like this to disappear.

    by whyBushwhy on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:07:49 PM PDT

  •  11 Americans died today (none)
    They volunteered and signed up to go over there.  So did our soldiers.  These men are all ex-military, many of them highly decorated for valour and bravery.

    If he didn't have political connections, John Kerry might have ended up in Blackwater had things turned out differently.

    They are essentially soldiers fighting the war in Iraq in all but name.  They have conducted many joint operations with our soldiers and have died fighting side by side with them, but apparently that means nothing to you people because they work for a corporation instead of the Dept. of Defense and get paid better.

    This talk of them committing atrocities and murdering innocent civilians is no different than the talk of our own soldiers doing the same thing, and if you have proof then post it, until then put up or shut up.

    by bbcrackmonkey on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 03:25:20 PM PDT

    •  and another thing (none)
      And no, they do not answer to their officers, but they are hired by the military as private contactors to do certain jobs, mostly security jobs like guarding food and fuel convoys, just as we hire Turkish truck drivers to drive many of our supply convoys.

      If they commit crimes then they would be subject to the legal system of the Iraqi government, which means that they would go to an Iraqi jail since they are civilians in a foreign country.

      There were also 2 Phillipino bodyguards and 3 Bulgarian chopper crewman who died in that crash.

      These particular blackwater employees were assigned to protect American diplomats.  In essence, these men were on their way to be bodyguards for American diplomats working in Iraq.  I want no more ill will said about them as it offends me personally.

      Imagine if a bomb exploded and killed 11 Iraqi anti-war activists over there to help lobby their government against human rights abuses.  I bet you'd see a lot of right-wingers gloating and it would make you sick to your stomach, wouldn't it?  Well do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

      by bbcrackmonkey on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 03:34:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Watch the video... (none)
    And specifically watch the dozens of rounds that these murderers (not "insurgents" not "rebels") put into the survivor of the crash.

    I have not posted here in a long time, but the things I have read in this thread have made me more angry than I have been in a long, long time.  

    Watch the video...

    Watch the video and tell me that these are freedom fighters.  Watch the video and tell me these people just want their country back.  Watch the video and tell me that these murderers have even a shred of human dignity.  

    They fired dozens of rounds into that man at point blank range not because of what company he worked for, not because of what he was doing in Iraq.  The did it because he was an American, and they would do the same thing to any of you no matter what you told them your political stance was.

    Watch the video. Then tell me this is America's fault.  Tell me that these "insurgents" that so many of you are sympathetic towards are the good guys in this fight.  

    My thoughts and prayers go out to this man and his family.  

    I also pray that I someday come face to face with the man behind the camera, and the man holding the gun.    

    by gradtom on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 06:51:41 AM PDT

  •  There really are no words. There really aren't. (none)
    I am a veteran of Iraq. I served in and around Baghdad, mostly doing convoy security from 2003 through 2004.  My rank was specialist and I was in the military police.

    I had a friend that was killed in Iraq.  He died 12 miles north of Baghdad.  

    His name was Jason Gore.  He was in 1st platoon and I was in 2nd.  Well, his name was actually Robert Jason Gore, but he went by Jason.  He was 23 when he died.  

    You know, I liked him a lot, I really did.  He was nice, smart, kind, brave and many other things that some people struggle their whole lives to be.  He was good at teaching other soldiers how to perform their different tasks more efficiently and safely.  Hell, Jason may have even been better then me when it came to knowledge and ability with crew-served weapons.  I never owned up to it before because I was too proud to be second best.  But Jason was my better.  

    Did you know that he wanted to be an astronaut when he was a kid?  I didn't.  Not until after he was killed.  He was so smart and so dedicated, he could have if he wanted to.  Well, around the time when he was a sophmore in highschool, he transfered to a military academy because he decided to go military like his dad did.  Jason loved his country.  He had an American flag hanging in his dorm room when he went to college.  And this was before September 11th when displaying the flag became so popular.  He joined the Iowa Army National Guard before that day too.

    In college, he studied physics and worked to pay his bills.  He was known by his classmates as a real fine student.  Hell, sometimes I have to take my boots off to count to twenty, but this kid could do it all.  

    Now, I remember him when he first got in.  I have to laugh, thinking about it.  He looked like such a little kid then, walking around in his uniform.  He still looked like a kid when he died, but that thought makes me cry.

    Well, I got out of the Guard in December of '01.  My contract was up.  It was in January of '03 when I decided to get back in because I knew my company would be going to the potential war that was looming in Iraq.  I got in just under the wire.  By February, I was on my way with my old buddies and some new ones.  One of which was Jason.

    When you spend a year in a place like that, the people you were with become family to you.  They are and will remain closer to me than my own flesh and blood.  Even the ones that I did not really like.  I don't understand it, but that's the way it is.  Jason was one of the ones I liked pretty well.

    Jason was like I said.  He was kind, brave, smart and the whole bit.  He would share whatever he had with you.  He actually liked the locals, I think.  He took the time to learn how to speak their language.  I pride myself at my ability with languages, but Jason had me there as well.  He was so damn smart.  He had a soft spot for the kids, just like a lot of the rest of us.  He'd give them food, water, candy and the like.  He watched your back on the roads and streets of Iraq like a hawk.  I was always comfortable having him around.  I knew I could count on him no matter what.

    We returned to home after a year in Iraq.  It was April of '04.  I'm sure Jason's little brother, mom and dad were glad to see him come home.  All our families were glad.  When we came home, we weren't the same.  In that year, we experienced a life time of things.  Hell, I was 25 at the time and my facial hair was starting to turn silver by the time I came home.  We had aged beyond our years, some of us.  A lot of it was from the stress.  For some, it was the bad things they saw.  For a small few of us, it was combat.  Jason never had to fire a shot the whole time he was in Iraq.  Some of us weren't so fortunate.  But I think Jason came out all right.  I smile when I think about what a kid he still looked like, even when he was caked in dust and sand over there.

    Surprisingly, we haven't been called back to duty yet since we've been home.  I expected we'd be back by now.  But it will come, I'm sure.  Sometime.  But a couple of my buddies decided to return without us.  Jason was one of them.  He was granted inactive status from the Guard so that he could take a six month contract with Blackwater.  It was good money for doing some of the same things we had done at E-4 pay for the Army while we had been there.  Hell, it was better than his E-5 pay he would get since he'd been promoted to Sergeant.  I was happy for him.  When he got back, he was going to finish out his college up in Wisconsin, then probably go active duty.  He wanted to be a Green Beret, like his father was.  He never got the chance.

    Jason died on April 21st 2005 when his helicopter was shot down 12 miles north of Baghdad.  He was enroute to Tikrit so he could work protecting American diplomats.

    I saw the video the terrorists took of the downed chopper after it had burned up.  I saw the two bodies of human beings burnt into that painful posture that only comes from being burnt alive.  I couldn't help but wonder if one of those things was my friend.  I hope he died as soon as that missle hit, because when the explosion comes and everything goes black, your hope and your future feel like they collapse up inside of you.  I know, from when my humvee got his by a roadside bomb once.  It's the greatest feeling in the world when you survive that, but Jason didn't get that chance.  I just hope he didn't die feeling that awful feeling.  I hope he didn't die burning.

    I stumbled across this page and I read some of the things that some of you had to say.  Some of the things I read disgusted me.  Particularly Military Tracy's comments.  I read all these things and I got angry and I cried.  But in the end, I decided that you people should know about my friend Jason Gore.  He was a better person than I could ever hope to be.  

    And Tracy, it's okay that you have no tears for people like my friend, because I have plenty.

    by Iraq Veteran on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 08:21:46 PM PDT

    •  in death no one should say....... (none)
      anything out of respect for another human being. but myself im a cynic and your story sounds a bit to rosey for my taste and well personally i dont believe you! it seems to perfectly written, to nostalgic yet lacking real emotion almost like a pathetic attempt at a public relations peice.

      by mikey9865 on Sat Apr 30, 2005 at 03:16:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  P.R. (none)
        My name is James McKnight Stanley.  I'm with the 186th Military Police Company in the Iowa Army National Guard.  Jason was my friend, I served with him in Iraq and you can kiss my ass.  How's that for rosey, Mikey?  

        If that's not enough, give me your address and I'll send you a funeral program, when we finally have it.

        by Iraq Veteran on Sat Apr 30, 2005 at 10:08:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, and one more thing... (none)
        Oh, and I also have a blog where I write more of what you call my "nostalgic" posts "lacking real emotion" about my feelings. The blog where I first wrote about my friend is April 22nd. The blog's heading is "R.I.P. Robert Jason Gore".

        I also have pictures from Iraq on there and I have two of the few pictures I have of my friend, from when some of us where playing catch football on downtime from a mission that took us to what you people called "the green zone" back here.  Since you're such a self proclaimed cynic, you can compare the photos to the ones released of him on the news pages online.

        Maybe then even you'll know what a fucking prick you are.  Here's the link:

        http://www.myspace.com/mcknight

        Oh, was I emotional enough for you this time, Mikey?

        My apologies to everyone else for my two little explosions, but can you blame me, as that this little prick has the gall to say that I'm lying about knowing a friend of mine who just died?

        None of this has been about politics.  For me, it's about my friend.
         

        by Iraq Veteran on Sat Apr 30, 2005 at 10:29:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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