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El Juno ([info]eljuno) wrote in [info]wank_report,
@ 2010-07-18 21:10:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: thoughtful
Current music:White Rabbits - Percussion Gun

This is the third edition of the [info]wank_report default post. Please only comment here if this is the only visible post with space for comments.

All tips posted under this post are fair game to anyone who wants them, but please comment if you take one, in the interests of keeping duplicate wank to a minimum.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-21 03:43 pm UTC (link)
Um…does anyone else think this Bleachness thing is turning into grudgewank? Anyone? *crickets*

Well, at least you didn’t post the rape stuff (FW thinks that sharing rape stories in the middle of a fandom discussion is creepy now? Or is that only when you dislike the person doing it?) or Anon’s attempt to prove that “Bleachness” had been bashing Rangiku based on a link to BA that didn’t actually support Anon’s claim.

Yeah, sorry I’m not funny, but I don’t see a way to share my thoughts here without...uh, Sharing My Thoughts. It seems like you’re gone from mocking Debbie’s/Bleachness’s behavior toward people who disagree with their opinions, to mocking the opinions themselves, as though only crazy people think that Ichigo/Rukia will be canon, Orihime should learn to fight, and Ichigo was wrong to kill Ulquiorra.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-21 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I smell grudgewank too, but no, I don't see anywhere that anyone is mocking people who "think that Ichigo/Rukia will be canon, Orihime should learn to fight, and Ichigo was wrong to kill Ulquiorra". The only people getting mocked are those who keep on twisting canon and Kubo's words to deny anyone else the right to honestly NOT think any of those things you mentioned and I quoted. If Debbie and Bleachness and Yulie only stopped at "we think these things", nobody would care. It's because they go MUCH further, all the way to "these things are clearly what Kubo means to happen and there's something wrong with people who don't realise this", that they get mocked.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-21 04:54 pm UTC (link)
From the latest entry:

“Orihime is just not aggressive by nature and she'll never be a fighter…. I don't understand why it's so difficult to grasp this.” [Because Orihime herself keeps saying that she wants to become stronger and fight alongside her friends so they won’t have to protect her all the time?]

“Do most of these people have Bleach as their first animanga canon? Because it's the only way this willful ignorance of shonen tropes even begins to make sense.” [This sounds…oddly like something the Bleachness crowd would say.]

“That Orihime's strength lies in not punching people in the face that means she's a terrible and horrible character that no one should like.” [I’m sure plenty of Orihime-bashers think this, but from what I can tell, the ones who consider themselves her fans only want her to be able to hold her own while defending herself and her friends, not to become a raging badass.]

“These are the same people who insist that Ichigo is a soulless monster for ‘murdering’ poor Ulquiorra in cold blood, so I take their ‘character analysis’ with a grain of salt.” [Uh…Ichigo literally was a soulless monster when he killed Ulquiorra and stabbed one of his own friends. He himself was horrified by what he’d done once he got his sanity back. Maybe I’ve missed something, but I don’t remember anyone on Bleachness claiming that Ulquiorra was “innocent” or that Ichigo was evil. Lots of people were sad that Ulquiorra died because they liked him, and sad that Ichigo is so messed up right now because they like him. That’s all I saw.]

On the one hand, I’m honestly glad that the FW coverage has opened my eyes to how arrogant and nasty Bleachness can be. I've been following the comm for years, and...yeah, I'd had been taking way too many of their opinions at face value. On the other hand, it seems like the bias is now going in the other direction. Now I'm kind of disgusted with everybody. Oh, the joys of fandom...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-21 05:55 pm UTC (link)
We don't really disagree. As I said, I too smell grudgewank. And I agree that some comments made on FW are just as simplistic and intolerant as the ones Debbie&Co; are criticised for making. However, what I meant is that the grudgewank and the negative feelings are not actually aimed at everyone who shares Debbie&Co;'s ideas about what will become canonical or not in Bleach: they are aimed only at those who ACT like Debbie&Co; in their mocking and intolerance of alternative beliefs. If you just happen to believe that IchiRuki will be canon, or that Orihime needs to buckle up a bit, or anything of the sort, but don't come down on other fans who think differently, then you're not counted in those being mocked and criticised on FW and WR. See the difference?

Also, please don't think I'm ignoring your other points, but if I may address one in particular:

I’m sure plenty of Orihime-bashers think this, but from what I can tell, the ones who consider themselves her fans only want her to be able to hold her own while defending herself and her friends, not to become a raging badass.

The problem is that both Debbie and Yulie, from what I understand, consider themselves fans of Orihime - and yet they bash her to hell and back. Just because they do it under cover of "I just want her to be the best she can be", doesn't mean it's not bashing.

In conclusion:

On the one hand, I’m honestly glad that the FW coverage has opened my eyes to how arrogant and nasty Bleachness can be. I've been following the comm for years, and...yeah, I'd had been taking way too many of their opinions at face value.

They have some good stuff, but the arrogance and nastiness are indeed a problem - and it's only getting worse, it seems, as more and more people point it out to them. Instead of wondering if maybe they might be doing something wrong, they are getting defensive and even more entrenched in their unpleasant opinions and attitudes.

On the other hand, it seems like the bias is now going in the other direction. Now I'm kind of disgusted with everybody. Oh, the joys of fandom...

Okay, first, don't take FW as any kind of representative sample of "the other side" ;) They aren't, and they aren't even pretending to be. They are FW, their own thing. And second... Well, Bleachness had it coming, really. As I said, when people point out to her stuff that bothers them, what does Debbie do? She goes "My comm, my friends, my opinions! Which are very clearly the only right ones by the way. Go away if you don't like it." Through that highly-polarising attitude, she's basically making sure that any passive onlooker who would accidentally take a look at that mess, will have to choose a side, for or against her. I know quite a few people in fandom who have rarely or even never come close to Bleachness and who yet know of Bleachness as a crazy wanky place, and make sure to stay far away from it.

I hear you about "the joys of fandom", too :( Bleach is a great fandom, but those stupid shipping wars and comm wars are like a tumor that's strangling it from the inside. It's really sad...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-21 08:32 pm UTC (link)
However, what I meant is that the grudgewank and the negative feelings are not actually aimed at everyone who shares Debbie&Co;'s ideas about what will become canonical or not in Bleach: they are aimed only at those who ACT like Debbie&Co; in their mocking and intolerance of alternative beliefs.

The weird thing is, I think Debbie thinks she’s only mocking a subset of especially batty and intolerant people. That’s the justification. Sometimes she’ll say something like, “Remember, don’t generalize about all the X fans! We only mean the crazy ones!” But it comes across as a pretty flimsy, token effort when you look at the general attitude of the community.

The problem is that both Debbie and Yulie, from what I understand, consider themselves fans of Orihime - and yet they bash her to hell and back.

Yeah, I’m not sure where I’d draw the line between criticism and bashing. To me, it depends on how well-supported the criticism is, but that’s subjective as well. I’m used to liking extremely flawed characters, and I understand being frustrated with a character you care about, and it’s an especially thorny issue because Orihime has changed so much from the cheerful, whimsical oddball that so many of her fans fell in love with.

My impression is that Debbie still genuinely likes Orihime, some of the other Bleachness members openly dislike her, and Yulie is…insane. But Debbie has defended Yulie and failed to call out various other people on their crap, and it is her com, so…in this case, I guess it’s fair enough to judge her by what others there say. I’m still conflicted about this…There’s nothing wrong with having friends who happen to hate one of your favorite characters, but it’s pretty strange that Orihime haters get a more friendly reception on Bleachness than people who ship her with the wrong person.

Okay, first, don't take FW as any kind of representative sample of "the other side" ;) They aren't, and they aren't even pretending to be. They are FW, their own thing.

You know, I think that’s part of what’s been bothering me. Most of the recent Bleach stuff has been posted by a couple of people who are in the fandom and have a particular viewpoint, but then a lot of the comments come from people who aren’t in the fandom and have gotten all their knowledge of it from this wank. And then I get all butthurt and want to yell: “No, wait, you’re missing the context! These are Complex Issues! You don’t understaaaand my beloved series! You don’t know it like I do! It’s a good fandom deep, down inside! It can change!” Uh-huh. I’m sure that’s how all the HP and Supernatural fans feel too. Duh, self.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-21 09:45 pm UTC (link)
The weird thing is, I think Debbie thinks she’s only mocking a subset of especially batty and intolerant people.

Good point, and I think you're right that this is how she sees herself, but that's just not what it ends up looking like, is it? Once she goes beyond saying "This is how I interpret things" to "This is how things are supposed to be interpreted", well, she's crossed a line between segregating opinions and segregating people who hold those opinions - and putting everyone who disagrees with her in the same bag, whether they are crazy or not.

Yeah, I’m not sure where I’d draw the line between criticism and bashing.

Big problem indeed. Debbie and Yulie claim they are just doing some honest criticism of Orihime's character, while to many other people, it looks like straightforward bashing at times. But I think what tips the balance towards bashing in my eyes is how forcefully they reject any mitigating circumstance people might mention (Orihime's age, her bullied past, her self-doubts...) and instead demand that the girl get over her issues right now or even argue that it's some kind of horrible failing on her part not to have done so already, and also how they keep making comparisons between Orihime and other characters (always to Orihime's loss, of course): not just Rukia, but also Tatsuki or Rangiku or whoever. It's this obsession with constantly demonstrating, in any way possible, just how much Orihime is failing! failing! failing! that turns their criticism into bashing, for me.

But Debbie has defended Yulie and failed to call out various other people on their crap, and it is her com, so…in this case, I guess it’s fair enough to judge her by what others there say.

Especially since she herself is always so quick to remind people that it's "my comm, my friends!" Goes both ways, really: only views she more or less agrees with get posted on her comm, but inversely that means that anything that gets posted there and that she doesn't vocally disown can be assumed to be something she agrees with. Which includes some of Yulie's and others' hateful stuff.

And then I get all butthurt and want to yell: “No, wait, you’re missing the context! These are Complex Issues! You don’t understaaaand my beloved series! You don’t know it like I do! It’s a good fandom deep, down inside! It can change!”

LOL! I love the way you put it :D And yes, I see what you mean :) Honestly, though, don't take FW to heart: they are there for the lulz, and they certainly don't pretend to be any kind of reasonable meta comm where both sides of a wank are carefully and impartially scrutinised. Quite the contrary in fact: someone posted not so long ago a (grudgy, it turned out) recap of a wank, which didn't clearly designate any side as the Bad Guys. The immediate reaction was pretty much, "Soooo... Which side are we supposed to dogpile, exactly?" ;)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 12:44 am UTC (link)
It's this obsession with constantly demonstrating, in any way possible, just how much Orihime is failing! failing! failing! that turns their criticism into bashing, for me.

It looks to me as though she’s getting thrown under the bus for the sake of the Great Shipping War, and things that reflect badly on her are perversely celebrated if they also reflect badly on the Wrong Ship. It’s not so much that her self-identified fans actually hate her, as that…the need to score points in the war has overshadowed love of the character, even though that love may still be there. I’m thinking a lot of the Bleachness crowd enjoy arguments and don’t sympathize with the people who find it all stressful and upsetting instead of fun. My disappointment with Bleachness probably started when they were so rude to the Ikkaku/Yumichika fan who felt unwelcome because she just didn’t care about the major ship wars.

Honestly, though, don't take FW to heart: they are there for the lulz, and they certainly don't pretend to be any kind of reasonable meta comm where both sides of a wank are carefully and impartially scrutinised.

I preferred the earlier Bleach wanks that had a more even mix of shipping crazy. Still, I feel better having gotten this off my chest. Hazard of being a serial lurker…sometimes I get a burning desire to speak up for once, only to realize the people whose discussions I’ve been following have no clue who I am and would probably look at me funny if I came barging in. I planned to post a massive rant in my journal, where no one would ever see it, but bringing it up here seemed a bit more sane than talking to myself . :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 01:11 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:17 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 11:15 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 11:47 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-23 12:47 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-24 05:59 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 12:10 am UTC (link)
I've been in the fandom (until I sort of moved on) and frankly, asshattery is asshattery. I don't think anybody doubts that there are a lot of sane Bleach fans out there, but as with every fandom, the vocal minorities get more attention due to being, well, vocal. I don't like the f_w trend of people judging entire fandoms based on vocal minorities but you can't really do anything about that.

Sometimes she’ll say something like, “Remember, don’t generalize about all the X fans! We only mean the crazy ones!” But it comes across as a pretty flimsy, token effort when you look at the general attitude of the community.

Because it is a flimsy excuse. I knew Bleachness in the old days and she's always had a problem with IchiOri (her first draft of her IshiHime manifesto was more like an anti IchiOri manifesto and contained many jabs at IchiOri and its shippers) it seems to me she's gotten more and more crazy and defensive about her OTP and more aggressive towards the 'Enemy Ship'. And since she's a BNF and seems to encourage this behavior...

To me Bleachness is basically a club with specific main interests and biases. Which wouldn't be bad but they keep denying this, regardless of how obvious the bashing has become lately. Reading these links it seems Debbiechan is finally starting to realize how ridiculous this is, but they still keep insisting that there's no hate here, only 'academic analysis and objectiveness'. Which is a load of BS.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 12:55 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:04 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:37 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 05:43 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:14 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:51 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 07:46 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 08:56 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 11:16 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-23 05:54 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-23 07:18 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:19 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:55 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-23 01:39 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-28 12:41 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-27 06:36 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-27 06:29 am UTC (link)
Okay, first, don't take FW as any kind of representative sample of "the other side" ;) They aren't, and they aren't even pretending to be. They are FW, their own thing.

Seriously, this.

A lot of the folks that comment on FW may or may not be fans of series/book/(insert media here) in question. I don't deny that there is some grudgewank, but that doesn't make Debbie and Yulie and the rest of the peanut gallery's behavior any less worthy of being laughed at.

IMHO.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-21 11:34 pm UTC (link)
On the one hand I think you have a point, but on the other hand Yulieana, Debbiechan and their posse are utterly ridiculous and wanky; their absurd ideas of characterization and canon aside, their obsession with IchiOri and its fans is beyond unhealthy. I'm sure there are ridiculous and wanky people on the other side as well (I don't know, I don't have a horse in this race) but it appears they at least have the common sense do it under cover instead of splooging everywhere.

NGL I find these wanks highly entertaining, even when I cringe of secondhand embarrassment, and while they may come off a bit grudgey, they always target the ridiculous ideas of Debbie/Bleachness and Yulie, and so far nobody at f_w attacked people for not liking Orihime or shipping UlqiHime or IchiRuki.

[Because Orihime herself keeps saying that she wants to become stronger and fight alongside her friends so they won’t have to protect her all the time?]

However, I've never seen this brought up in those discussions. The definitive argument is almost always this: "She should get over her issues, stop whining and start kicking ass, stat! Otherwise she's just a weak bitch." To say nothing of the "anti-feminist" arguments. Which is pretty wanky to me.

[I’m sure plenty of Orihime-bashers think this, but from what I can tell, the ones who consider themselves her fans only want her to be able to hold her own while defending herself and her friends, not to become a raging badass.]

As the other anon said, there are ones who consider themselves her fans yet keep bashing her for not conforming to their frankly, ridiculous expectations and double standards. They also seem to completely disregard the context and circumstances, or the fact that Orihime has done things that required significant amounts of bravery and determination aside of "firing Tsubaki" successfully once, and these should be at least acknowledged if you call yourself her fan. They just keep pointing at the one scene where she had a breakdown because she'd just seen the guy she's in love with brutally killed, and comparing her behavior to that of seasoned fighters like Rukia and Rangiku, or Tatsuki who has an entirely different personality.

tl;dr, I think these wanks seem grudgewanky because they keep focusing on Yulie and Debbiechan. And they may even be grudgewanky a bit, but Yulie and Debbiechan/Bleachness are first-class wankers.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 03:34 am UTC (link)
However, I've never seen this brought up in those discussions. The definitive argument is almost always this: "She should get over her issues, stop whining and start kicking ass, stat! Otherwise she's just a weak bitch." To say nothing of the "anti-feminist" arguments. Which is pretty wanky to me.

Karenai brought it up in the infamous Lust Arc essay, but I can see why her more reasonable points aren’t the ones that get remembered or quoted. :P For me, it would be one thing if Orihime had always been content as a pacifist healer, but a whole new can of worms burst open when people started telling her that she was unfit for battle, and she vowed to become stronger. Now the issue will have to be resolved one way or the other. The question is whether Orihime should learn to accept herself, or whether she should change.

And, well…this isn’t exactly fair to Kubo, but if Orihime ends up accepting that she can’t fight, it’s going to remind me uncomfortably of Naruto, where Sakura (the healer girl again) works up the determination to do something on her own, fails miserably, needs to be rescued, and has an “epiphany” that she should stand back and trust the guys to solve everything, in an arc so amazingly sexist that even some of the forum fanboys became convinced that Kishimoto hates women. (At least, that’s how the situation stood when I stopped reading Naruto.) I trust Kubo enough that I don’t think Orihime’s resolution will be that bad even if she never learns to fight, but it’ll still have unpleasant associations for me. That’s my personal take, although I can understand why others like the idea of a non-fighter in a fighting manga who still manages to be a useful member of the team.

I think these wanks seem grudgewanky because they keep focusing on Yulie and Debbiechan.

Also, the people who’ve been posting most of these are apparently (1) an Ichigo/Orihime shipper, and (2) an Orihime fan who belongs to an anti character-bashing com where Yulie once trolled in a pro-Orihime post. I don’t mean to say that it’s some kind of “IchiOri conspiracy,” but there does seem to be a personal element to it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 04:39 am UTC (link)
Totally out of nowhere but...

Unfortunately for the wank community, the IchiHime fandom mostly keeps their wank under wraps. Their forum is locked, and any other wank is mostly talked about between members in PMs and such. Like, if someone brings up something wanky in BA, they'll bring it over to their forum and talk there, where they aren't exactly safe from eyes, but it can't be used against them as well. If the bigger essays and questionable material in Bleachness was blocked off to members only, I think it would solve a lot of problems for both sides, as neither would have to look at the other's wankiness.

But yeah, there's probably a personal element to most of these wanks. I liked it way better when everyone was kind of doing their thing in their own comms, not really intersecting. Those were the days.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 05:18 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:34 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:36 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 04:29 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 05:46 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:41 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-23 05:47 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 07:14 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:43 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:57 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 10:37 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 11:47 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 07:08 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 09:31 am UTC (link)
This is probably just me but I'd find it equally offensive if she accepted that she needs to change and learn to conquer her non-violent personality. Then the moral of the story was that female characters worth anything must be fighters, and if a character's personality is not cut out for fighting she'll just have to change. There has to be a middle road between "stay in the kitchen" and "kick ass or die."

Also, the people who’ve been posting most of these are apparently (1) an Ichigo/Orihime shipper, and (2) an Orihime fan who belongs to an anti character-bashing com where Yulie once trolled in a pro-Orihime post. I don’t mean to say that it’s some kind of “IchiOri conspiracy,” but there does seem to be a personal element to it.

The posters are obviously biased toward Orihime and IchiOri, but I think they've done a good job so far keeping it out of the reports and focusing on the undoubtedly outrageous antics of select people instead of trying to label the entire IchiRuki/UlqiHime fandom as crazies. I've seen people whining about the wanks presenting Bleachness as a pit of haters, but frankly, that's how they come across when it comes to Orihime and IchiOri.

tl;dr: it's not the first nor the last wank where the posters are tangentially involved or even biased, and as someone said in an earlier wank, the wank report is open to everyone.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 09:37 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 12:10 pm UTC (link)
Also, the people who’ve been posting most of these are apparently (1) an Ichigo/Orihime shipper, and (2) an Orihime fan who belongs to an anti character-bashing com where Yulie once trolled in a pro-Orihime post. I don’t mean to say that it’s some kind of “IchiOri conspiracy,” but there does seem to be a personal element to it.

That is a bit of self selection. Considering how often the Bleachness-people go to Ichigo-Orihime places to bash, troll, and post things like "she should have killed herself", it is just very unlikely that anyone BUT a Ichigo/orihime shipper stumbled over it first.

Not that Orihime doesn't have characterisation issues. Kubo is very bad at women, I think - take note that, so far, no woman hasn't won a single fight against a named character without a guy helping her.
Not. Even. Once. Not even against a mook. Bleach doesn't risk writing "all women should be fighters" because Bleach fighters who are female are, so far, a joke. Even Yoruichi needed help against a named mook.

It's completely legit to point this out. Orihime particularly is written in the usual way of "female power is bad and needs to be checked".

But Yulie doesn't actually criticize that. She just uses it to bash the evil other ship. And that's really the problem.

Fandom_Wank mostly mocks Yulie and Co because in this particular "discussion", there is no other side to mock. F_W does not link to locked communities as a rule, that is why the locked Anti-Orihime com (which is FAR more wanky than Bleachness ever will be) has, so far, not been "wanked" once. And similar Rukia-bashing doesn't exist out of the com - most Orihime/Ichigo shippers like Rukia as a friend of Orihime.

...although I bet that behind closed bars, some of them get batshit too. But every community has batshit. The only issue is when it gets so utterly absurd as Yulie got.

But if you see Ichigo/Orihime shippers pull absurd nonsense like this: REPORT IT. F_W is not the fandom police and does not run investigations. F_W relies on people repoerting. So if you feel somehow the situation is "unfairly slanted", fix it by showing the wank of the other side. F_W will happily and gleefully wank them, too.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 01:29 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 02:31 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 02:54 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 03:42 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-23 12:04 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-26 07:05 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 02:45 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 04:09 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:35 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 07:51 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 08:39 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 11:23 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 11:58 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-23 12:57 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-24 06:11 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-24 08:11 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-24 08:29 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-24 09:46 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 12:11 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 10:44 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 12:47 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 05:31 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 07:38 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-24 09:10 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 12:22 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 01:53 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 06:05 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 08:52 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 01:49 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 05:45 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:08 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:34 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:27 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:21 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:30 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 06:38 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-27 06:51 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-22 08:11 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-27 06:46 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Also, the people who’ve been posting most of these are apparently (1) an Ichigo/Orihime shipper, and (2) an Orihime fan who belongs to an anti character-bashing com where Yulie once trolled in a pro-Orihime post. I don’t mean to say that it’s some kind of “IchiOri conspiracy,” but there does seem to be a personal element to it.

As others have said, people see and report wanks because they're in the fandom. There's no requirement that says you have to be a totally impartial observer in order to think something is wanky. And there certainly isn't a requirement that you can't ship IchiHime if you want to report something wanky an IchiRuki/UlquiHime fan did.

It may also interest you to know that every single one of the wanks on Yulie and Debbie has come from wank_report. [info]ladyofviolets and whoever else has posted them have only grabbed them from here, in some cases using the exact same write-up from the anon report.

Is there bias there? Yes, but it isn't necessarily shipping bias. It could be bias towards a favorite series or bias towards the antics of a preferred wanker, which would explain why both the people reporting and the people replying tend to be the same. But neither one of those things are bad or wrong or against policy. If someone posted a wank in which Bleachness wasn't being wanky and tried to present it as such, f_wank would eat them alive. Raised by hyenas and all that.

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Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-24 07:32 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 06:40 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-24 07:57 pm UTC (link)
(2) an Orihime fan who belongs to an anti character-bashing com where Yulie once trolled in a pro-Orihime post.

Links or it didn't happen!

Well, no, from what we've seen of Yulieana, she's definitely capable of doing that. I'm just interested in seeing it. Links? Liiiiiinks?

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Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-25 02:51 am UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 08:10 pm UTC (link)
so a "soulless monster" does not = evil?

too bad deebie&co; did say that around the time the chapter came out, and are probably still saying it now. Of course, they completely ignore Ulquiorra's actions that led up to him become this ebil "soulless monster." what did he do again? oh yes...using his tail as a rope to hold up ichigo by the neck, he cero'd him through the chest, leaving a soccer ball-sized hole, and then threw him off of that massive tower like a rag doll...all in front of the girl who loves ichigo, telling her he was glad she was there to see it.

l loved ulquiorra, but I'm not stupid...he deserved what he got and then some. what goes around, comes around and karma is a bitch. anyone who defends ulquiorra on anything needs to seriously step back and needs someone to slap the insanity out of them.

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Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 08:46 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure what kind of bias you're trying to show, but out of those comments, only one of those people is actually an IchiHime shipper. The rest are either not in Bleach fandom at all or ship yaoi (to the best of my knowledge). But this:

Maybe I’ve missed something, but I don’t remember anyone on Bleachness claiming that Ulquiorra was “innocent” or that Ichigo was evil.

They do claim Ichigo is 'stained', 'de-evolving', 'sinful', and that he 'murdered' Ulquiorra. In fact, just this past week they claimed Kubo's latest colorspread of his different 'forms' throughout the series was even proof of this 'de-evolution'. They never mention the fact that Ulquiorra was a bad guy, and quite often attribute nobler motives to him than he had (he wasn't going to hurt Orihime, he was trying to toughen her up, he was trying to protect her from Ichigo). No, I've never seen them outright claim he was 'innocent', but they don't seem to believe he's done anything wrong, either. And Yulie's journal is all of that, dialed up to eleven.

To sum up, is that comment an over-simplification? Yes. Is it wrong or intellectually dishonest? Nope.

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Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 11:11 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure what kind of bias you're trying to show, but out of those comments, only one of those people is actually an IchiHime shipper.

I thought those comments were unfair in their dismissal of certain (well, OK, my) opinions. That part wasn't about the posters’ shipping preferences.

They do claim Ichigo is 'stained', 'de-evolving', 'sinful', and that he 'murdered' Ulquiorra.

“Ichigo shouldn’t have killed Ulquiorra” probably wasn’t the best way to phrase what I meant. I don’t know if Ichigo could have avoided doing that. But he’d been winning his battles without killing his opponents up until that point, since he’s an idealistic shonen hero, and Ulquiorra’s death does come across as a loss of innocence for him, especially because it wasn’t what he considered an honorable fight, and he stabbed his own friend while he was at it. That could be described as a “stain” or “sin,” and “running around howling incoherently in Hollow form” could be described as “de-evolving.” Melodramatic, but not necessarily wrong.

Some of Ichigo’s character flaws (like being in denial about how much he enjoys fighting) may be giving the Hollow more power over him. That doesn’t mean Ichigo himself is evil, just that he needs to get his Superpowered Evil Side under control, like any other hero who happens to have one.

I think this really is a case where criticism is not the same as bashing. Ichigo has been kind of a mess lately, and they’re not obsessing over his failings as intensely as Orihime’s.

As for the leather-pantsing of Ulquiorra…well, there is always that fine line between liking a villain and excusing his actions. His death was supposed to be sad, and probably to imply that he could have been redeemed. I think some people just wanted to vent about the death of a character they loved without stopping to go over all the bad things he'd done. But when it comes to shipping…yeah, there is this creepy idea that Ulquiorra’s better for Orihime than Ichigo because his abuse makes her feisty, while Ichigo’s protection makes her passive. I did like the Ulquiorra/Orihime interaction, but once it gets to the point that the abusive relationship is seen as more healthy than the overprotective one…

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Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 11:54 pm UTC (link)
The thing about it is, Ichigo's been 'winning without killing' due to outside circumstance in a lot of cases. He didn't kill Dordonni, the Exequies did. Dordonni even demonstrated that as long as he was able, he'd keep attacking him. He didn't kill Grimmjow, Nnoitra probably did. Ulquiorra's was the first fight that didn't either end with him walking away or getting interrupted. And the majority of Zangetsu and Urahara's training with Ichigo has focused on killing intent and he didn't hesitate to try and kill Aizen from behind. In other words, the focus on 'killing' as the moral issue has been vastly overstated and it seems to suddenly only be a moral issue because a popular character was involved.

I agree that fandom doesn't give Ichigo the third degree as much as they do Orihime, and a lot of what he gets is just general criticism about the story revolving around him. But there's still this really unrealistic depiction of him as the bad guy in the Lust fight and Ulquiorra as the good guy, and it's generally accepted as canon on Bleachness. And your last paragraph is just pretty much true word-for-word.

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Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-23 06:41 am UTC (link)
Mentioned this below too but since this is a relevant discussion regarding Ichigo, let me just give my $0.02.

Ichigo wins his battles because he's a typical shounen hero and thus, exemplifies the Determinator role. What he does is he attacks and attacks and attacks them, beats them up over and over and over until they simply can NOT get up anymore. In the cases where his determination isn't enough, there is (as the above anon explained) always an outside factor that takes care of it. Ichigo's never had to kill anyone to win before because he's never had to. His previous enemies had been rendered too weak to attack him anymore, and he's free to traipse to the next battle that'll inevitably come his shounen-hero way.

His determination is a non-issue with Ulquiorra. It's one thing if Ulquiorra was just stronger. Shounen thrives in the hero's battle with an obviously stronger foe and winning because there is something important to protect. Ichigo's whole, "I have to win," crystallizes that well enough. But Ulquiorra has the added advantage of his regenerative abilities. Ichigo's usual tactic of "Fight. Fight! FIGHT!" is useless against someone who just regenerates anyway, and with outside factor to take care of it, Ichigo's choices were pretty much, "KILL or DIE."

Before Kubo addressed the ***SPOILERissueofIchigo'sHollowintherecentchaptersSPOILER*** I always considered it a cop-out because Ichigo WON without actually killing Ulquiorra when his choices were pretty much either/or before. And considering the KILL or DIE issue was something that Dordoni, GJ, his Hollow has been repeating ad nauseum, it looked like a lost chance at addressing that.

But yes. From the moment Ulquiorra admitted his ability to regenerate, Ichigo's chances of winning without aiming to kill went from nearly impossible to just plain impossible. And in the end, Ulquiorra died of complications anyway (not to mention it had that weird exposition from Ulquiorra. "Yes, I have regenerative abilities but the drawback is that my organs won't regenerate if you destroy a major appendage. So if you destroy an arm or a leg or something, I'll be toast but don't pay attention to me! I'm exposing my weaknesses to you because I like the sound of my own voice, that's all." What Kubo was thinking, I don't know. He probably wanted to just finish it already).

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Re: Mini Bleach wank - (Anonymous), 2010-08-24 03:41 pm UTC
Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 02:43 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm I see what you mean but I think its more tiptoeing the line than actual grudgewank. No question about the bias however I think there are enough Bleach fans on f_w to point out if anything said is bullshit or out of context, which means people can probably turn on them in time. I will agree with you on the concentration on these two though. I've been thinking after the Nick Simmons incident all the wank that got reported regarding them got rather silly however I think this reflects the fragmentation within Bleach fandom.

In places like LJ and BA the primary audience who read and discuss Bleach are people like Yulie and Debbie who read Bleach in lets say a more 'dedicated' fashion while lets say places like BE and NF have fans who are more casual with reading it and care more about fight stats than who loves who. The fact that so much of the wank report comes from places like LJ and BA indicates there probably is a lot that needs to be reassessed and probably changed within those areas (LJ and BA) of fandom interaction. And this would mostly regard learning not to cross the line between fandom and personal attacks due to differences of opinion. And that's why I think they are reported more.

Sorry this sounds rambly. >_

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Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-22 04:00 pm UTC (link)
In places like LJ and BA the primary audience who read and discuss Bleach are people like Yulie and Debbie who read Bleach in lets say a more 'dedicated' fashion

Yes and no. Yes a lot of fans on LJ and BA are dedicated, but no a lot of them are not like Yulie and Debbie at all. Also, I don't think there's necessarily a correlation between the degree and the areas of involvement: there are very involved fans who don't care one bit about shipping, and very casual fans who are pretty much only in it for the romance of their favourite ship. (It's possibly true, however, that on 'less involved' forums, shipping might not be seen as a topic of discussion as interesting as other stuff, so casual fans who are in it for the shipping might not participate there a lot.)

there probably is a lot that needs to be reassessed and probably changed within those areas (LJ and BA) of fandom interaction. And this would mostly regard learning not to cross the line between fandom and personal attacks due to differences of opinion.

Which is a problem strictly due to the moderating line these places have chosen, nothing more. These places could be virtually free of public wank if they wanted to, but they apparently either don't mind it (in BA's case) or even actively desire it (in Bleachness' case, under the cover of 'vigorous debates' and such), so that's what they get. There are Bleach comms all over LJ that are 'very involved' and yet don't tolerate even a shadow of the smugness and arrogance that can take place in Bleachness, so really, it's not LJ, it's just Bleachness.

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Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-23 03:52 am UTC (link)
I wouldn't be surprised if there was AT LEAST one Bleachness member trying to raise shit here and make their little comm look like the poor victim bullied by those evil IchiOris or those monstruous Orihime apologists...

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Mini Bleach wank
(Anonymous)
2010-08-23 06:17 am UTC (link)
I don't really see it, truth be told. Other people have said it better, but the deciding factor for me is the fact that Bleachness has been reported here several times before without getting picked up. It's when Yulieana weighs in (and Bleachness hosts it and/or enables her pretty - oh who am I kidding; extremely - wanky behavior and opinions) that Bleachness wank is posted at F_W.

So I don't see grudgewank regarding "this Bleachness thing". I can see potential Yulieana grudgewank going on though but with her attitude and her triggering opinions, I really can't begrudge anyone for disliking her because she is a highly dislikable person with triggering opinions. The fact that a comm as large as Bleachness (and which used to present themselves as a general comm) hosts, supports and enables her triggering opinions just compounds the matter. It's made available to more people and presented as if it's right, if the number of yes-men in her LJ and Bleachness posts is anything to go by.

as though only crazy people think that Ichigo/Rukia will be canon, Orihime should learn to fight, and Ichigo was wrong to kill Ulquiorra.

But wait, what does Ichigo/Rukia have to do with this? From the links I've read, the ratio of "Ichigo/Rukia will be canon" is markedly nonexistent next to the, "Ichigo/Orihime has no chance. And also? It's sunk. It's sinking. It's sunk again. And now sinking again. And just not healthy for Orihime or Ichigo. It's just a bad pairing," side of the poll. I've hardly seen any Pro-IchiRuki sentiment that isn't directly on the heels of an anti-IchiOri post. Something that centers only on IchiRuki without mentioning how it's already canon is rather rare in these links, especially in posts authored by Yulieana that I wouldn't have realized they shipped it if the reports hadn't actually mentioned them shipping it.

This is why rather than being a Pro-IchiRuki community, these wanks just convinced that Bleachness is actually an anti-IchiOri community. It just makes more sense that way.

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