American
Preterist Universalism
IS A "FATHER OF AMERICAN
UNIVERSALISM" ALSO A "FATHER OF FULL PRETERISM"? ACCORDING
TO MANY DEFINITIONS OF FULL PRETERISM, YES
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"Christ's Second Coming in AD70" Seen as
Universalist Doctrine
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"Professor Bush is, I perceive, a favourite writer
with him. He is also a favourite with the American
Universalists, a body which boasts of numbering
among its adherents above 600,000 individuals, and
which happens to agree with my friend in his notion
of Christ's second coming being past." Dr. Thom
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A FULLER PRESENTATION OF THE
HISTORY OF PRETERIST UNIVERSALISM:
The (New) History of Full Preterism (Part Two) (WMV File)
Max King admitted his acceptance
of Universalism to Ward Fenley: "Obviously if according to Ward in his
interview with Sam and Jason that Max has admitted his acceptance of
Universalism to Ward face to face there is no doubt where he now
stands."
(Full Preterist) Sam
(Frost)'s view of "all in Adam" does indeed logically conclude with
universal redemption. And if this is Max's view in CP (I am not
saying it is or it isn't, but if it is) then it is completely
understandable why it led him to universalism."
(http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/profiles/blogs/is-the-body-of-christ-no)
The Universalist and Ladies' Repository (1843)
"We are amused to see how earnestly to see
how earnestly polemics writers now urge to against Millerism
the very reasoning they scorned a short time since as absurd
because used by Universalists !.. We give one specimen, from
a late publication, of the adoption of our method of
interpreting several prophetical passages : - 'Christ's
second coming was at, or about the time of the destruction
of Jerusalem, A.D.70.'" (pp. 294-296)
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Preterist Universalism
Earliest Full Preterism Developed Among American Universalists //
Doctrinal History Can Be Traced Back to the 18th Century
All
relevant forms of Unlimited Redemption related to the Preterist paradigm are
under consideration here, especially modern forms such as of
Pantelism
and Infinite / Common / Comprehensive/ Absolute
Grace, Ultimate Reconciliation, etc. The
works and solutions of other ex-Universalists
will be considered here, as well. In 2011, the CBV (Corporate Body View) of Max
King was given a subsection of its own. Let the reader judge.
"The Second and Only Coming of Jesus in AD70"
View Seen as Universalist Doctrine
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Hosea Ballou |
Introduction
After ten years of dedicated searching, the earliest
roots of Full Preterism have revealed themselves in the writings of
the American Universalists - a group which boasted a
membership of over half a million. Universalists tend to believe that
atonement is received by all in Jesus Christ regardless of one's state of
belief. Universalist Preterism specifically focuses on
the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 as being the exhaustion of God's
judgment, and also being a fundamental proof of the universality of
the world's presence in the "New Heavens and Earth" and "The Age About to
Come" ever since that time.
As to why
Preterist
Universalism may have found its roots in America, church historian George
Emerson may offer a clue. He suggests that, as opposed to the
emergence of the Universalist denomination out of the architecture of the
previously existing religious establishment in Europe, "the Universalist
denomination here in the United States began with nothing" ("Ebenezer
Fisher", p . 92). The liberty to construct a diligently
consistent system from the ground up seemed to have freed American
Universalists from the shackles of the Futurism which crippled the European
counterpart.
In addition to seeing the organic development of Full Preterism in Universalist writings, the trend
is revealed to operate in the other
direction, as well. The earliest known FP author,
Robert
Townley, converted to Universalism
shortly after the publication of his book in 1845. (PDF
File) Considering how this trend
is also apparent in the FP movement of today, Townley becomes a key figure
in dissecting the correlation between Preterism and Universalism.
Generally, all Preterist Universalism is classified as
"Hyper" Preterism, though some hold to a future
resurrection.
For a while, a great deal of this material was withheld
out of concern for what is, in my personal opinion, the potentially damaging effects of
Universalist doctrine upon a person who is uncertain about where they stand
regarding a proper view of the redemptive work of Jesus
Christ (I suppose a Calvinist might say the same thing about Arminianism) ; however, it finally seemed time for a general release of these
revelations on the website -- so that each may be equipped to decide for
themselves what, if any, connection there is between the "AD70 Terminus"
view of Full Preterism, and the Unlimited Atonement view of
Universalists.
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"And if he shall come again, in like manner, it must take
place at a definite time, and that definite time will be the
day of judgment, will it not? Oh, but, says the Universalist,
I believe he did come, and in so coming, the promise of the
two angels was fulfilled, and the day of judgment is past.
But when we enquire, did he come, and what was the day of
judgment? Why, says one, he came at the time of the
destruction of the city of Jerusalem by the Romans, about
forty years after his ascension." (1839: The Anti-Universalist, p.
80)
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Dr David Thom
"Professor Bush is, I perceive, a favourite writer with him.
He
is also a favourite with the American Universalists, a body which
boasts of numbering among its adherents above 600,000
individuals, and which happens to agree with my friend in
his notion of Christ's second coming being past."
Rev. Parsons Cooke
"Some recent authors have expressed much surprise, that
Universalists of the present day should apply so many passages of the New
Testament to the destruction of Jerusalem. To name no other, Rev. Parsons Cooke
speaks 'of the credulity of those who embrace the system of Universalism,' in
believing 'that so large a part of the Bible should relate to the destruction of
Jerusalem.' 'If ever I succeeded,' says he,' in digesting the monstrous
absurdity, I would be honest enough to call things by right names, and label the
New Testament, "JERUSALEM'S DESTRUCTION FORETOLD." (Quoted by Whittemore
in Notes on
Parables, p. 316)
David Embury
"If Animals = Gentiles = Israelites, and “all Israel
shall be saved”, then that must mean that all Gentiles are duly saved.
Even science would agree with this... evolution says we are all animals
therefore we must all ultimately be Israelites... thus all saved. So, as it
turns out universalism must really be true!!"
Animals and Gentiles
Books on Preterist Universalism |
Universalism in America,
Volume II : Bibliography
"And having satisfied our minds respecting the time of the coming of
the Son of man to judge and reward men according to their works, and
being assured that that event took place when Jerusalem was
destroyed, and the Jews dispersed; it remains an easy task to settle
the question respecting the meaning and fulfillment of all the
passages in the New Testament which speak of that judgment, and the
awful calamities which fell on the people. But we must always keep
in mind the fact that all those scriptures were fulfilled in that
generation in which Jesus and his disciples lived." (Hosea Ballou,
1805 - Treatise on the Atonement) |
Tentmaker Books
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1804 : Hosea Ballou - Notes on the Parables "Will the
reader now say that all this may be, and that both Daniel and
the Saviour were speaking of the resurrection of mankind to a
state of immortal happiness and misery in a future world? To
this we reply, when Jesus spoke to his disciples of the
destruction of Jerusalem and of the calamities which should
shortly come on the Jews, he uses the words of Daniel nearly
verbatim, when he speaks of the time of trouble. By this
circumstance we are instructed that both Daniel and the Saviour
spake of the same time and of the same events, and that time
was, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans."
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1805 : Hosea Ballou - Treatise on the Atonement "And having
satisfied our minds respecting the time of the coming of the Son
of man to judge and reward men according to their works, and
being assured that that event took place when Jerusalem was
destroyed, and the Jews dispersed; it remains an easy task to
settle the question respecting the meaning and fulfillment of
all the passages in the New Testament which speak of that
judgment, and the awful calamities which fell on the people. But
we must always keep in mind the fact that all those scriptures
were fulfilled in that generation in which Jesus and his
disciples lived."
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1819:
Hosea Ballou -
Select
Sermons Delivered on Various Occasions "In his account of the destruction of the Jews,
and of the vengeance of God upon them, Jesus was particular in his
reference to what had been written on the subject ; he says, "For these
be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be
fulfilled.. the whole is confined to that generation ; and not the least
intimation of punishment in a future state of existence."
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1824 : John Samuel Thompson - Prophecy Fulfilled. Or,
Destruction of Jerusalem and Dispersion of the Jewish People
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John Samuel Thompson:
Christ's Coming in Judgment
(1825)
PDF Here
Added: "This prophecy fixes the time of
Christ's coming before the destruction of the second temple, which
by the Romans under Vespasian, was levelled with the ground."
[One of the clearest early expressions of
Hyper-preterist Universalism.]
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1826 : Thomas Brown
-
A History of the Origin and Progress of
the Doctrine of Universal Salvation
"I shall now prove, and prove only from the scriptures, that
this was the end of the world, the end of the age, the day of
judgment, and "the days of vengeance, that all things which are
written by Moses and the prophets might be fulfilled." And
the hell that people have so long been talking about was in
Jerusalem." "Now the whole just amounts to this, that the only
way to prove a hell of endless punishment, must be to prove that
what is said by the prophets.. means endless punishment.
If that can be done, then we must, to our great grief and
sorrow, and to the sorrow of all good men, give up Universal
Salvation. .. I conclude that no man of sense and learning
will ever undertake it, nor to find a law that ever threatened
such punishment for sin, then we have gained the victory, the
great and long controversy is decided."
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1832:
Thomas Whittemore:
Notes and Illustrations of the Parables of the New Testament "Some recent authors have expressed much surprise, that Universalists of the present day should apply so many passages of the New Testament to the destruction of Jerusalem. To name no other, Rev. Parsons Cooke speaks 'of the credulity of those who embrace the system of Universalism,' in believing 'that so large a part of the Bible should relate to the destruction of Jerusalem.' 'If ever I succeeded,' says he,' in digesting the monstrous absurdity, I would be honest enough to call things by right names, and label the New Testament, "JERUSALEM'S DESTRUCTION FORETOLD."
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1833: Walter Balfour -
Letters to Moses Stuart
(1833) The following
letters, were published in the
Universalist Magazine, in the years 1820, and 1821, and signed ' An
Inquirer after truth.1 They were
addressed to
MoSes
Stuart,
associate Professor of Sacred
Literature, in the Theological Seminary at Andover. In presenting them
to the public, now in a small book, and with my real name affixed to
them, a brief statement of the circumstances which gave rise to them,
seems to be necessary. Without this, some might suppose, they were
written since I became a Universalist, whereas they were expressly
written to avoid becoming one." (Pastoral partner of the
earliest known FP author,
Robert
Townley, who converted to Universalism
shortly after the publication of his book in 1845. (PDF
File))
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1839 : Josiah
Priest -
The Anti-Universalist
- Displays Preterist Universalism's arguments based upon past
fulfillment : "And if he shall come again, in like manner, it
must take place at a definite time, and that definite time will
be the day of judgment, will it not? Oh, but, says the
Universalist, I believe he did come, and in so coming, the
promise of the two angels was fulfilled, and the day of judgment
is past. But when we enquire, did he come, and what was the day
of judgment? Why, says one, he came at the time of the
destruction of the city of Jerusalem by the Romans, about forty
years after his ascension." (The Anti-Universalist, p. 80)
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1843 : Adin Ballou -
The
True Scriptural Doctrine of the Second Advent, an Effectual Antidote to
Millerism "The "second
coming," "appearing," or "revelation," of Christ, in his regal and
judicial glory, took place about the time of the final dispersion of the
Jews, at the end of the Mosaic age. The general resurrection and day or
age of judgment, then commenced in the invisible world, denoted to
mortals only by the remarkable signs, terrors, and dreadful events,
attendant on the destruction of Jerusalem. Then all departed souls in
Hades came forth, clothed with immortality, before the judgment seat of
Christ, they that had done good to the resurrection of life, and they
that had done evil unto the resurrection of condemnation. The
patriarchs, prophets, apostles and saints, who had previously finished
their course on earth, and were resting in hope, then entered into their
glory in the resurrection of the just." (p.3)
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1843 :
Thomas B. Thayer - Universalist
Miscellany
The "Coming" "Appearing"
"Revelation" &c. in Scriptural Usage
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"These passages show that the revelation of Christ
in judgment was, very near, on the eve of opening
when the revelator wrote, which, as we have said,
was immediately preceding the event, about A. D. 69;
and the destruction of Jerusalem took place about
two years after, A. D. 70, so fulfilling all the
predictions of Christ and his apostles."
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1845 : Dr. David Thom -
Three Grand Expositions of Man's Enmity to
God Thom's Response
to Robert Townley (earliest known Full Preterist), who converted
to Universalism shortly thereafter. "Professor
Bush is, I perceive, a favourite writer with him.
He
is also a favourite with the American Universalists, a body which
boasts of numbering among its adherents above 600,000
individuals, and which happens to agree with my friend in
his notion of Christ's second coming being past."
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1845 :
Robert
Townley Converted to Universalism Shortly Thereafter
- PDF File Excerpt from "Carlsbad Eschatology
Conference" Notes
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1848:
Thomas Whittemore:
A Commentary on the Revelation of St.
John, the Divine "For our
part, we are willing to confess, that if a man believes the
Apocalypse was not written until after the destruction of
Jerusalem, and if he believes in the common notions concerning
the day of God's wrath, the judgment of the dead, the great
dragon, the bottomless pit, &c., &c., he cannot understand the
book. He will be continually hampered by his pre-conceived
system ; and, in harmony with such a system, no probable
interpretation can be given. Although Professor Stuart has
produced an excellent work upon the Apocalypse, — the most
consistent and valuable, we think of any we've have ever seen, —
yet he was manifestly troubled and warped in his judgment in
interpreting certain parts by his theological system, or creed,
especially his belief in endless misery, and the popular notions
of a future judgment. "
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1848:
Dr. David
Thom:
The Number and Names of the
Apocalyptic Beasts: with an Explanation and Application
(1848) "For many years I have rejected unhesitatingly,
and on what seem to myself to be most valid and
satisfactory grounds, the notion,— might I not even be
justified in calling it the fable ? — of this Book
having been composed towards the close of the first
century, A. D. 95 or 96, or thereabouts. Evidence to
substantiate this, which is the common opinion, is, it
appears to me, totally a-wanting. Events connected with
the destruction of Jerusalem, and the passing away, at
that era, of the Old Testament economy, are in more than
one part of it clearly and strikingly spoken of, as
matters of future occurrence : and if so, it must have
proceeded from the pen of inspiration before A. D. 69 or
70 ; unless we feel disposed to impute to the Holy Ghost
the uttering of prophecies subsequently to their
accomplishment. Can it be shewn satisfactorily, indeed,
that any of the New Testament records were composed at a
later period than the one which has just been indicated
? I believe not." (Thanks Universalist Archive!)
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1858:
Lucius Paige:
Selections from Eminent Commentators (1858) "Of course, it is not pretended that any one orthodox commentator explains every disputed text in accordance with the views entertained by Universalists. But among them ah, some have furnished us authority on every text of this description, with a very few exceptions; some furnishing authority on one text, some on another. The quotations are introduced, on each text, with reference to a single point; to wit, does this text teach or imply a state of misery in the future life, or does it not ? When any commentator allows that it does not, I consider him to be proper authority to quote in confirmation of the exposition given by Universalists, even though they do not agree with him in regard to what the text does mean. I will illustrate my meaning by a single example. By referring to the notes on Rev. vi. 12—17, it will be seen that Hammond and Lightfoot interpret the passage as descriptive of the ' destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state"
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1869:
Richard Metcalf -
Letter and Spirit
(1869)
"This was the second coming of Christ, which he foretold so vividly
that its literal fulfilment must have given his disciples a still
clearer proof of his Messiahship. The judgment with which he
threatened the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done,
came, as he said it would, in the lifetime of that generation. The
judgment which Paul said was impending came within five years of the
time when Felix trembled in view of it. The disciple whom Jesus
loved did tarry till the coming of his Master; and all the Gospel
predictions upon the subject were realized in that spiritual coming
at the end of the Jewish age, between A.D. 65 and A.D. 70. Not the
slightest hint is given of still another coming to be looked for in
or after our day; for all that was meant by the second coming of
Christ, the great day of judgment and the end of the world, took
place eighteen centuries ago."
Articles on Preterist Universalism |
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Discussion on: Adam and “Death”
to “all” men (2009) "Thus the above being
true, God has no more enemies – and THIS makes logical sense with a
consistent prêteristic hermeneutic. Thus if as
Pantelism contends – that in the AD70 Parousia of Christ the "last
enemy" to be destroyed was "the death", and if along with
this death the venom of "the sin" duly empowered by "the law"
likewise suffered demise; and if further, God having reconciled all
things in heaven and on earth to Himself through the blood of Christ's
cross [Col 1:20]; THEN regardless of what you or I or anybody else
thinks or reasons – God has no more enemies. Now even if in the
ignorance or arrogance of some men's feeble thinking they consider
themselves enemies of God, from HIS perspective they are not [Col 1:21].
Thus if we agree that "the last enemy to be destroyed was death" then
consistency dictates God has no more enemies, period! And so… IF God has
made peace, and the Scriptures testify He has, then who are we to
question His gracious will?" (http://preterismdebate.ning.com/profiles/blogs/adam-and-death-to-all-men)
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Books that Changed my Life: The Adventures of a
Christian Hedonist "The journey that took me from
believing in an eternal hell to Christian Universalism
all started with the book,
‘Shades of Sheol: Death and Afterlife in the Old
Testament’ by Philip
Johnston. I learned that Israelites were quite agnostic
about what happened after death and did not have a firm
belief in either heaven or hell. The book
‘Jesus and the Victory of God’
by NT Wright, really showed me how Jesus’ predictions
that many Christians believe are a future post-mortem
Judgment actually refer to the destruction of Jerusalem
in 70AD. This is one of the best books on the purpose
of Jesus based on the cultural context of 1st Century
Israel."
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Brian Simmons -
What Hyper Preterists Don't Want You To Know (2008) "The consistent Preterist
view holds that all salvation was perfectly consummated in A.D. 70.
Those born after A.D. 70 never needed salvation, for they were never under
the Old Covenant... Therefore, if Hyper-Preterism is true, all men must be
saved. For the individual is really part of the universal. Therefore, the
universal effects of an A.D. 70 general judgment would cover individuals
living past that event."
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Dean Johnson -
The Resurrection of All in All
(2003)
"Some call this Preterist theology, or fulfilled
eschatology. In this view, there is a progression, a
working out of a divine plan that is now fulfilled. This
is a reasonable human understanding that can lead to a
spiritual worldview that sees all as now completed
within the Christ. Within this view, when all is
fulfilled, the scriptures are unlocked and our
interpretations and understandings are freed from the
fetters of time and cultural restraints. "
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The Case for Biblical Universalism: Preterist
Eschatology (u/k)
"Preterism still struggled to gain credibility within other Protestant
countries, especially England. The English commentator Thomas Hayne
claimed that the prophecies of Daniel had all been fulfilled by the 1st
century (‘Christs Kingdom on Earth’, 1645), and Joseph Hall expressed
the same conclusion concerning Daniel’s prophecies (‘The Revelation
Unrevealed’, 1650), but neither of them applied their Preterist views to
Revelation. However, the exposition of Grotius convinced the Englishman
Henry Hammond. Hammond sympathized with Grotius’ desire for unity among
Christians, and found his Preterist exposition useful to this end.[17]
Hammond wrote his own Preterist exposition in 1653, borrowing
extensively from Grotius. In his introduction to Revelation he claimed
that others had independently arrived at similar conclusions as himself,
though he gives pride of place to Grotius.[18] Hammond was Grotius’ only
notable Protestant convert, and despite his reputation and influence,
Grotius’ interpretation of Revelation was overwhelmingly rejected by
Protestants and gained no ground for at least 100 years."
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John Riffe -
Revelation 20 & Universalism "I know
you are busy, but could you take just a brief moment and fill me in on
how you view the Rev. 20 passage and how a wrong view there can open the
door to universalism. Being slow of mind, it will help me to get up to
speed. So thanks so much for doing this. Don't take a lot of time, just
a brief response."
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John Samuel Thompson : Prophecy Fulfilled Or
Destruction of Jerusalem and Dispersion of the
Jewish People at the Second (1824) - Added to
Bibliography
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Robert
Townley Converted to Universalism Shortly After
Releasing Earliest Known Full Preterist Book in 1845
- PDF File Excerpt from "Carlsbad Eschatology
Conference" Notes
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Yahoo Group: Preterist
Universalism - Here's my conundrum. Full Preterist holds these truths
as I understand them;
1. God's wrath on man has been pacified through Christ
sacrifice on the cross. The finality or icing on the
cake being in 70 A.D.. Complete removal of the law that
held us in bondage.
2. Satan with all his influence, was thrown into the
abyss, being chained forever. This is part of all of the
book of Revelation being fulfilled.
3. The resurrection has happened, all the dead has risen
making Sheol an empty place.
Here lies my conundrum. Why, oh why, do "Full Preterist"
have such a hard time believing in universal salvation.
What they/we teach goes further than a lot of
universalist I know and correspond with. Some
universalist believe Sheol/hell still exist holding the
spirits of all who've gone before and they will not be
released until the day of judgment, that is still yet to
come. Then when judgment day arrives only those who
believed in Christ will be released and those who don't
will have to stay, being tormented, until they do. Kind
of like putting someones arm behind their back until
they cry uncle. This to me is asinine, making no since
what so ever. I call it Eventual Salvation.
Anyway, what I'm suggesting you do, being a Full
Preterist, is take another look at what happened to
Satan in the last chapters of the book of Revelation.
Bruce...the real Full Preterist!"
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Bill's Bloggins
"My personal blog with articles on Universalism, Preterism, the
Holy Spirit, and my own personal commentary on books of the
Bible"
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DeanJohnsonMinistries.com
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Infinite-grace.com
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Pantelism.com (David Embury) "The
understanding that the Scriptures, both prophetically and
redemptively, are fulfilled in their entirety in the person and
work of Jesus Christ
–
the one to whom the whole of prophetic and redemptive history
points. This fulfillment completed all Biblical eschatology,
being demonstrated in
Christ
and His
elect first-fruits saints
end-of-the-age ministry, finding consummation in His prophesied
Second Coming [Parousia] and Judgment upon the Old
Covenant Mosaic world of the Law and Temple, circa AD70."
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Presence.tv
- cf. "Grace for All" Article
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Tentmaker
(Gary Amirault) "Our
hope is that all who visit our internet site will come into a living
personal relationship with their Maker, their Father through His
Son, Jesus Christ, who sent the Holy Spirit to lead us into the
Truth. Sooner or later all will come into this personal and eternal
loving relationship with their Creator. "
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Whatifound.info
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The Connection
"It seemed that every preterist group I came across was fully
dedicated to the subject of Preterism but refused to even give a
seconds attention to the idea that God would be interested in saving
all of humanity. What’s even more puzzling to me is that most of the
UR groups I am a member of couldn’t grasp the idea of all scripture
being fulfilled. For me the more and more I study the more I find
the two subjects to be completely inseparable! In fact I see that
the fulfilled prophecies of scripture were the means to the the
ultimate reconciliation of all things."
THE CORPORATE BODY VIEW
OF FULL PRETERISM VIA MAX KING
(under construction)
THE "PARADISE MANDATE" VIEW
OF "EVENTUAL GOSPEL UNIVERSALISM"
(under construction)
ONE SOLUTION TO THE PRETERIST
"UNIVERSALISM CONUNDRUM"
"EVENTUAL GOSPEL UNIVERSALISM"
("a reign of truth and
righteousness on the earth" in the future where "all men" are saved)
"Surely, it was not in vain that Jesus said, ‘I am
the Light of the World.’ ‘God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that
the world through him might be saved.’ ‘I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw
all men unto myself.’" James Stuart Russell, The
Parousia (emphasis in original) |
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James Stuart Russell |
David Chilton on "Eventual Gospel
Universalism" Here is Chilton before his conversion to full preterism
(if his view qualifies.. that is what is under dispute regarding Sam's
theology) and after:
(Before)
""It is certainly true that righteousness does not dwell in
the earth in an absolute sense; nor will this world ever be
absolutely righteous, until the final enemy is defeated at the
Second Coming of Christ.. according to God's promise, the saving
knowledge of Him will yet fill the earth, as the waters cover
the sea." (Days of Vengeance,
544)
(Writing as an almost Full Preterist) "Once the Lord
came to destroy the scaffolding of the Old Covenant structure,
the New Covenant Temple would be left in its place, and the
victorious march of the Church would be unstoppable. According
to God's predestined design, the world will be converted; the
earth's treasures will be brought into the City of God, as the
Paradise Mandate (Gen. 1:27-28; Matt. 28:18-20) is consummated
(Rev. 21:1-27)." (from "New Heavens and Earth")
ONE SOLUTION TO FP UNIVERSALIST CONUNDRUM IS PLACING UNIVERSAL
CONVERSION FARTHER INTO THE FUTURE -- BUT DOES SUCH A GRAND FUTURE
EXPECTATION (THE "PARADISE MANDATE" YET TO BE CONSUMMATED) STILL QUALIFY
AS FULL PRETERISM? IF THE BIBLE ANTICIPATES WORLD-WIDE
CONVERSION.. WOULDN'T THAT BE A PROPHECY AS OF YET UNFULFILLED? |
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Samuel Frost's
view that the kingdom came in the first century and yet that Jesus is now
conquering the world through the gospel is much closer to traditional
Christianity, and appears to have the endorsement of Dr. Talbot. If
Sam's "Ongoing
Fulfillment" relates to the
conquest of the Gospel over all nations, kings and religions, does that
qualify as Full Preterism?
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Mike
Sullivan, David Green, Ed Hassertt:
SAM FROST'S DEPARTURE FROM FULL PRETERISM INTO THE
PARTIAL PRETERIST / PRETERIST IDEALIST WORLD OF TALBOT
(9/10/2010) "In Sam’s end of the world article he claimed that Full Preterist’s understand
the long ages of Isaiah 65 as teaching “spiritual abundance.” I followed this up
with asking Sam if this meant that he changed his interpretation of the
passage (to the FP one), or if he was being misleading in that he was still
holding onto a PP Postmillennial (PPP) hermeneutic (it is spiritual [“spiritual
abundance”] AND literal – the long ages will be seen as the passage is “fully
manifested/fulfilled” over time). Again, Sam dodged the question. How
scholarly, respectful, and loving."
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Sam Frost: "no Preterist has
been able to say to me that 'nothing changes' when we physically
die. In other words, it is correct to say 'I am glorified' today in
the Body of Christ, as He is Glorified. However, is this
glorification FULLY MANIFEST or APPARENT today? Now, ask yourself:
will it be in heaven when I physically die? Will anything change?
Will I still be the same, old bumbling Sam Frost that I am here on
earth? Will I still be subject to occasional sin? Error? If not, why
not? Do I get 'something else' in Heaven? It is not so much that we
'get' something else, but that that which WE HAVE (II Cor. 5.1-2)
will be ENTIRELY in FULL OPERATION - FULL ON POWER. If this, then,
is so, then one must concede the argument of 'fullfillment already -
manifestation not yet' (my argument in a nutshell)."
1.
The kingdom would come as a mustard seed in the Parousia in AD 70.
2. Then after the Parousia in AD 70, the kingdom will grow for untold
thousands of years until it finally "fill[s] all the earth,"
in fulfillment of
Daniel 2:35 and other prophecies.
DOES SUCH A GRAND FUTURE
EXPECTATION (THE "PARADISE MANDATE" YET TO BE CONSUMMATED) STILL QUALIFY
AS FULL PRETERISM? IF THE BIBLE ANTICIPATES WORLD-WIDE
CONVERSION.. WOULDN'T THAT BE A PROPHECY AS OF YET UNFULFILLED?
If "eventual gospel universalism" is true, then
should we expect CHRIST'S TRIUMPHANT MARCH TO FIND FULFILLMENT IN THE
FALL OF ISLAM?
- Is Christianity expected to conquer over
Islam on Earth one day? What would Bible prophecy suggest regarding the
outcome of the 'Sovereign status' duel between Jesus and Mohammed? Is Jesus'
kingdom of this world, or is He solely interested in saving souls while His
competitors pillage His people? (Fb
Port)
Let the saints be joyful in glory;
Let them sing aloud on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishments on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the written judgment—
This honor have all His saints.
Ps. 149
-
Sam Frost's Article About Isaiah 65
(2009) Full Preterist NCMI
considers Frost's theology to be Universalism: "If
the new heavens and new earth
(which equals the new creation in Christ, and which also equals
heaven, the land, the heavenly country, and the Holy Jerusalem) is
synonymous with the new covenant age (the period of time
that believers and non-believers alike are living in), then believers
and unbelievers alike are in heaven. This is why I always agreed with
Todd Dennis that RCM's particular brand of preterism demands
universalism. If Sam's equation is true, then yes, pretersim =
universalism."
What do YOU think ?
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Date: 10 Jul 2009
Time: 21:41:57
Your Comments:
i think all these universalism writings is waisted time and junk
Date: 17 Apr 2010
Time: 00:28:11
Your Comments:
Thanks for posting this information. Unlike the other commenter, I find this
information very useful and it is certainly not "wasted time and junk."
Thanks again for your most valuable website. God Bless You!
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