Frank Tallis, in conversation with Walter Wells
Frank Tallis
WW: The Beast’s good friend, novelist Frank Tallis (known on his most recent book-covers as F.R. Tallis) has been persuaded —short of bribery, actually— to take time out of his very crowded, new-novel-every-year schedule to offer some insights into the creative process. That process, for him, has so far garnered numerous awards and prestigious shortlistings (including the Elle Prix de Letrice and the Edgar), along with an upcoming television series. Tallis, who lives in London, is the author of eleven novels—including the acclaimed Liebermann Papers, a series of six novels of psychoanalytic detection set in long-ago Vienna; and more recently three novels of terror and the supernatural set . . . in places where terror and the supernatural thrive.
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WW: Frank, awhile back, you gave up the glamorous position of clinical psychologist for the equally glamorous –but riskier—role of a working novelist. Is that a fair characterization?”
FT: Let me tell you, clinical psychology isn’t really very glamorous. Most of the patients I saw were just mildly depressed or mildly anxious. About once a year I‘d come across a patient who was spectacularly interesting —a case of demonic possession or multiple personality— and then doing therapy would feel glamorous, almost cinematic. But such cases are very rare. As for the glamour of being a novelist, that’s almost always been more public perception than anything else. There’s nothing glamorous about sitting in a room on your own for five hours a day making stuff up. I love doing it. But I do it because I enjoy writing novels, not for the glamour of it all. Concerning risk — especially pecuniary risk—I would concede that being a novelist is a lot riskier than being a clinical psychologist.
WW: Okay, so you took the plunge. You accepted the risks and, in pretty quick succession, wrote two London novels— Killing Time and Sensing Others. They were generally well received, but also troubled a few critics who couldn’t quite classify them. Had you carried the ideas of these two books with you for awhile, knowing you’d tackle them once you took the plunge?
FT: Only in the vaguest possible way. I can remember being on the top deck of a bus going down the Edgware Road and thinking it might be interesting to write a novel about a camera that could take pictures of the past —that was a few years before I started writing Killing Time — but I didn’t really develop the idea. It didn’t gestate. Likewise, the basic conceit of Sensing Others —a drug that gives access to other peoples’ memories— came to me just after I’d finished Killing Time. So once again, no long gestation period. What I did know, however, was that I wanted the books to be experimental. I wanted to import ideas that you’d normally find in Science Fiction into contemporary crime writing.
WW: And yet your next novel —in fact your following six novels— were neither science fiction nor contemporary. You seem instead to have carved out a very special niche for yourself –a series of crime novels set in imperial Vienna over a century ago. Did you feel that the experiment hadn’t worked?
FT: Well, I thought the experiment had worked … though now I would not be happy with some of that early writing. I’ve become more demanding about language with each passing year.
WW: But what was it, then, that took you back to the Vienna of Freud, and Mahler, and Klimt … ?
FT: Back in 2002, I was having lunch with my agent and she suggested that I might want to think about writing a detective series. I’d always thought that if I was ever going to write detective fiction—
Freud’s Vienna, 1902WW: You’d considered it earlier on?
FT: Sure —among other things. But if I was going to take her up and write a series of detective novels, I should draw on my background in clinical psychology. Psychoanalysis is perennially fascinating, so I decided that my series would feature a psychoanalytic detective. And once you’ve made that decision, there’s only one place you can set it: in Freud’s Vienna. I already had a longstanding interest in the history of psychiatry. I’ve also been a devotee of Mahler from my early teens, and have a conspicuous weakness for pastries, so the whole thing came together with remarkable ease. Of course, being a former academic, I did absurd amounts of research to get the period detail right. But on the whole, it felt natural and immensely pleasurable to be writing these books.
WW: That research is something I’d like to get into. But first, that pleasure. You say it felt natural. Did you find, from the start, an easy fit between psychoanalysis and detective work?
FT: Absolutely! Psychoanalysis and detection are very similar. Clues are like symptoms. And the detective is like a psychoanalyst attempting to find a root cause. It’s quite revealing that Freud himself recognised a close relationship between psychoanalysis and police detection. He pointed this out in one of his lectures. It’s also interesting that Freud was a great fan of detective fiction. One of his patients, the Wolf-man, wrote a memoir. He reveals in it that Freud was a big fan of Sherlock Holmes. Apparently, Freud had great respect for this kind of writing. The Wolf-man said that Freud valued it as much as the writings of Dostoevsky.
WW: So over the course of six novels, then, your young psychoanalyst, Dr. Max Liebermann, who links up with a police inspector, Rheinhardt –over their shared love of music, I believe—helps him to solve some very puzzling crimes.
FT: The fact that I wrote six novels in this series is quite significant. It took that many to cover the number of topics that had taken my fancy.
WW: And they were… ?
FT: Okay. They were—The late 19th century occult revival… The origins of national socialism among the secret societies of fin de siècle Vienna… Nietzsche’s influence on Austro-German psychology… Kabbalah and the collective unconscious… Viennese modernist fashion as against the frequent personification of death as a dark female angel in folklore… And finally, Mahler’s reign as the director of the Vienna State Opera. Each Liebermann book features a crime that’s solved with the aid of psychoanalysis. But each book also features one of these subjects or themes.
WW: When we spoke earlier, Frank, you reminded me of a statement made by Freud: “He who has eyes to see and ears to hear becomes convinced that mortals can keep no secret. If their lips are silent, they gossip with their fingertips; betrayal forces its way through every pore.”
Arthur Conan Doyle (at left) and Edgar Allan PoeFT: I did indeed.
WW: Well then, if we can say that Poe’s original detective-hero, Auguste Dupin (the genre’s great starting point), and then Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes, both solved their crimes by “ratiocination” (as Poe called it), can we think of Liebermann solving his by a process of sub-ratiocination?—by simply reading a suspect’s unconscious? It almost sounds too easy.
FT: Yes, the concept is really so blindingly obvious I haven’t a clue why it wasn’t done before. Many authors have had fun playing with psychoanalysis and detection, or with psychologist-detectives. Liebermann, though, is, I believe, the first ‘authentic’ psychoanalytic detective —insofar as he makes Mortal Mischief, volume 1 of the Liebermann Papers, set in turn-of-the-century Vienna.extensive used of Freudian slips, dream interpretation, projective tests and the like. One of the things that always disappoints me about books described as ‘psychological thrillers’ is that there’s usually very little psychology in them —at least, very little psychology that someone with formal training in the discipline would recognise as psychology. The TV series of the Liebermann books is very close to being made right now and I really hope that the ‘psychology’ survives the transition from novels to broadcast. Psychology is the essential feature.
WW: Essential, yet now you’ve moved beyond it, or you seem to have. You’ve left Max Liebermann behind and taken up the horror novel. Your last two –and, frankly, I find your productivity astounding—they’ve been, in the case of The Forbidden, about voodoo magic and the border between life and death. Then, in The Sleep Room, you set a nerve-shattering narrative in a remote psychiatric hospital in East Anglia, and hinge it to its director’s obsession with narcosis, with sleep, this prolonged trancelike sleep, as a cure for craziness. (‘Hinge’ comes to mind because it almost unhinged me.)
FT: It was intended to.
WW: Well it did. But the shift from Liebermann and psychoanalysis to terror and the occult seems to me a large one —from the controlled analysis of telltale signs unwittingly given off by criminals, to those uncontrollable forces that keep us in thrall. Liebermann makes the inexplicable explicable. Your horror novels, on the other hand –like those of other very gifted horror writers— yield to the inexplicable, to the macabre. Even your name, your nom de plume, has shifted from Frank Tallis to F.R. Tallis. Why the shift?
FT: The simple answer? I wanted to do something different. Yet I think I’ve always wanted to write horror/supernatural fiction. Indeed, lots of Gothic ideas and images surfaced in the Liebermann books. As far as I am concerned, crime and horror writing aren’t so dissimilar. Both are based on the same narrative archetype –‘slaying the monster’. Whether it’s Moriarty or Count Dracula – evil must be overcome and good must prevail. Secondly, the best crime writing and the best supernatural fiction almost always involve some kind of detection. The criminal must be tracked down or the mystery that causes the ghost to return must be solved. Masters like Poe, Conan Doyle and Gaston Le Roux wrote crime fiction and supernatural fiction – and I think that’s because the two genres share the same narrative foundations. They’re very close.
WW: So you’re essentially the same writer, the same storyteller, you were before the shift?
FT: Yes, and regarding my name change … that was meant to send a clear signal that I was doing something different, different at least in terms of conventional types of books —so that people who liked Liebermann wouldn’t buy my supernatural fiction and be disappointed. That was the theory, anyway. In practice, many Liebermann readers bought my supernatural fiction, were horribly disappointed, and very keen to let me know. Check out the customer reviews for The Forbidden on Amazon. There’s no doubting the honesty of some of those views!
WW: I have, actually. Do the bad ones hurt?
FT: Yes!
WW: . . . Fair enough. And let me ask, as we near our end here, about novelists and research. It’s not all just the pleasurable exercise of imagination. You’ve got a new novel of the supernatural coming out very shortly —about ‘sounds’, I believe, different kinds of sounds: film soundtracks, music, baby noises, disembodied voices. . . . How in the world does one research that? Or need to?
FT: My new novel, The Voices, is a ‘domestic’ ghost story set in North London during the scorching summer of 1976. It was the hottest summer of modern times with a kind of mythic, unreal quality for those of us who can remember it. Because I do remember it, I didn’t have to do a great deal of general, background research.
WW: Unlike Vienna, 1905?
FT: Very much unlike it. I did, however, have to refresh myself, in detail, on what was going on here politically –which was quite extraordinary. I was only 17 at the time and blissfully unaware that Great Britain was on the brink of social and economic collapse. (I do, though, remember a lot about what girls were wearing.)
WW: Some things stick, I know. But basically, it’s research into your historical context?
FT: Yes, but beyond that. The ghosts in the novel manifest themselves through electronic devices —through baby monitors, radios, stereo speakers. And my protagonist –an electronic film music composer— first makes contact with the dead, unwittingly, when their voices appear on what should be empty, silent tape. So— I needed also to research the science of ‘electronic voice phenomena’ (yes, there is a science devoted to the talking dead), and to get into even more obscure subjects like the history of the BBC Radiophonic workshop, and the Magic Circle in the 1970s, and the methods favoured by 19th-century magicians to make people vanish (or appear to).
WW: Frank, your protagonist (like the composer here) and your other characters —and the storylines they’re involved in—where do they come from?
FT: Well, I think the obvious answer to that question is my unconscious. And I suspect that’s true for most writers. We experience the world, our memories sink below the threshold of awareness, stuff happens, and if you’re a fiction writer, story lines and characters just pop into your head. But don’t ask me to deconstruct the ‘stuff happens’ stage —some kind of purposeful, preconscious processing, obviously. It’s difficult to say much more than that. If I could, it wouldn’t be ‘unconscious’.
WW: Thanks, Frank. And thanks to F.R. Tallis as well, for an intriguing look inside.
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FRANK TALLIS, in addition to his novels, is the author of Changing Minds (a history of psychotheraphy), Coping With Schizophrenia, How to Stop Worrying, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: A Cognitive and Neuropsychological Perspective and other works of nonfiction —a brief sample of which appeared in the August 2013 edition of The Fickle Grey Beast. WALTER WELLS is Editor of The Fickle Grey Beast.