Today’s podcast features special guest Clarisse Thorn. Clarisse is a writer, sex blogger, activist and BDSM practitioner. She’s the author of the books Confessions of a Pick Up Artist Chaser and The S&M Feminist.
Topics covered in this episode:
- Thoughts and experiences of polyamory.
- Sacrifice, focus and other unsung benefits of monogamy.
- What she learned from her time investigating the Pick Up Artist (PUA) community.
- PUA shady business marketing and business practices.
- Objectification and how men are socialized to not express their emotional needs.
- The strengths and weaknesses of PUA and feminism in their depictions of society.
- And more…
Length: 42 minutes, 8 seconds
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Jean
3 months ago
Omg! This is becoming more interesting than Playboy Channel!
At 14:00 the guest says something that makes a lot of sense: Most PUAs have a background that deals with a nerdy past and now they want to contradict that. It’s exactly an inferiority complex. Not that’s a bad thing as it’s a noble emotion to have: Inferiority complexes lead to evalution. Einstein failed his first year at school and Swarchznegger was skinny when he was a kid.
I don’t agree with framing PUAs as some kind of sick guy loser who lives at his basement mom. PUAs have issues, but everybody has. The difference is that PUAs have emotional wounds that are connected with social status, women or relationships. The biggest problem is to think there is a problem.
At 20:00 the host talks about how PUAs think it’s “gay and beta” to have feelings and being a monogamist. TRUE! I used to be polymagiarythfr (whatever the other shit is) when i was deeper in the community and it fucked me over real bad. That’s why Manson’s is getting big. I’ve watched his name in both hate and love sites lately… that’s because he talks about the real deal.
P.S.: Was that a daft punk song at 35:00 lol
Mark Manson
3 months ago
Thanks for the comment. Yeah, PUA’s aren’t inherently bad and everybody has problems. The big question is how they approach those problems and handle them. I would argue most of the methods in which PUA’s confront emotional issues are unhealthy. But then again, if you’re reading this site, then you already know that.
Elizabeth
3 months ago
This is my favorite podcast. I hope Clarisse returns as a guest, you two make a great team, even if you don’t agree on everything.
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
Thanks!
Elizabeth
3 months ago
Clarisse, I just started reading your blog and I love it!
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
<3!
Zac
3 months ago
I really enjoyed listening to this episode. You guys had some great back and forth and discussed a lot of interesting stuff. If you have Clarisse on again and you two can swing it I think you should at least do an hour.
Through my internet travels I’ve managed to come across a fair amount of both Feminist and Men’s rights blogs.
A lot of the blogs themes seem to be “we are more oppressed”, “you are either with us or you are against us”, and “blame the other side” esque. It’s been pretty depressing reading the vast majority of people’s points of view on this stuff. A lot of the things I’ve read have had some truth in them and make some good points but are too mixed up with dogma, anger, pain, accusations, and resentment for me to actually relate to. It could just be that there is a loud, passionate minority on the internet but damn…
What kinds of blogs and resources do you both respect that could help me educate myself on Feminism? How about Men’s Rights? Are there many sites geared towards both together in a unified way that you could recommend??
You both addressed that there doesn’t seem to be an open honest dialog going in both directions between men and women. There seems to be more of a divide than there is connection on these issues.
I think it’s so frustrating when people make it seem like you have to decide whether or not you are for making life better for women or for making life better for men. Why can’t we want life to be better for everyone? I’ve read that some Feminism tries to address men’s issues but doesn’t that make it something more than Feminism? What do you both think needs to happen for people to really start making progress with the issues of gender and society? Is it simply more education?
I’ve identified as a Humanist for a while and I’ve always thought that by default I had to consider every human being and how they are treated, not just one gender or group. I understand why people take focus on certain issues close to them but isn’t it a simple truth that in every country and culture throughout the world there is some kind of discrimination and it happens to all sorts of different people? Shouldn’t we as people address that simple fact first before we go fighting over who has it the hardest out of everyone else so we can just fix their problems first?
I love what Mark said about how it’s just the fact that both men and women are stupid and that people are stupid in general. I think we as a species lack a little self awareness and perspective and that makes it hard to really get most people past themselves. We are after all very complex and thoughtful monkeys typing on our laptops right now. The world is a confusing place.
Pellaeon
3 months ago
@Zac
I would recommend checking out FeministCritics.org. While the site does lean heavily towards men’s issues, and there are comments that are steeped in pain (I’m guilty of this myself), the authors do an excellent job striving for balanced dialogue. They’ll even go out of their way to police the language of a post that they essentially agree with just to ensure that the points are presented in a good faith manner.
In fact, I actually found out about the site from reading Clarisse’s book and website.
Nissa
7 weeks ago
I glanced over this one. Depressing. Mark is vastly more entertaining.
Mark Manson
3 months ago
There was a good blog called “No Seriously, What About Teh Menz?” which has recently moved to be a part of The Good Men Project.
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
I often find it hard to recommend feminist books/blogs for audiences I don’t know super well, because different people have such different reactions. But the book Feminism Is For Everybody by bell hooks comes highly recommended. I used to write for the high-profile blog Feministe, but I don’t agree with everything that’s posted there by a long shot. The Ms Magazine blog makes a real effort. A site like Womanist Musings comes at it from the perspective of a woman of color.
Mark Manson
3 months ago
I would not recommend Feministe for people looking for a “balanced” or “inclusive” perspective. But that’s just me.
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
heh. Well, again, I certainly don’t agree with everything posted there. I would also recommend avoiding the comments — some can be brilliant, but especially for outsiders it can become incredibly hostile territory. For insiders too, honestly. I know a lot of feminists who read the blog but not the comments.
Y’all might also be into Alas! A Blog, which does masculinity stuff occasionally.
Nissa
7 weeks ago
Zac -
Agree. As a lady, I have identified as feminist in the past but in the last 6 months am moving more towards Humanist too. I think Feminism too often is associated with anger towards men or society, and that’s not what I’m about. I’m feminist in the traditional sense of “live and let live”, everyone is equal + do what they want. If men want to stay home, ok. If women want to work, ok. Now that I think about it, it sounds just Libertarian to me. Hmmm.
Anyhow, that’s why I read Mark’s stuff. I’m happy to see us all moving toward equality in all areas.
Dr. Jeremy
3 months ago
Zac,
I appreciate your observations. I also share your frustration. Reading at least a selection of Feminist and Men’s Rights blogs, there does appear to be more drawing battle-lines than finding common ground. Sometimes though, that is the result of members of each group having a selective and focused perspective. If you choose a particular gender or group over the whole of humanity as a focus, then there can end up being a fine line between “empowering” that chosen group and disenfranchising, subjugating, and oppressing the rest. Unfortunately, in their in-group zealotry, some people miss that point (or worse, don’ care).
Going against that trend to “choose a group and fight the enemy”, however, can be difficult. For a bit over a year now, I’ve been trying to change that situation. I have attempted to write dating and relationship advice for BOTH men and women that is helpful, fair, and balanced. However, like Clarrise discussed with her monogamy article, balanced perspectives do tend to get attacked from both extreme sides. The very vocal minorities on both ends of the spectrum definitely seem to want people to pick a side, rather than work in the middle (often to validate their own perspective). Sometimes they are even convinced that their extreme side IS the balanced middle.
So, I would like to encourage you in taking this stance and continuing to look for the true middle ground. The “humanist” perspective, as you put it. I applaud both Mark and Clarisse for their efforts in this area as well. It isn’t easy, particularly with criticism on both sides. But, there is a silent majority of people out there who are confused, in need of help, and don’t find the extremes of misogyny/misandry acceptable. I will continue to do my best to help them as well.
Geert
3 months ago
If you want to learn a couple of things about the men’s rigth movement, then you should check out
http://www.avoiceformen.com
This is the leading men’s right activist website.
I’m also not a fan of deciding who gets oppressed more, but you should be able to raise awareness to certain topics without this topic. F.E. fale rape accusations really havn’t gotten that much attention.
Zac
3 months ago
That’s precisely one of the things I find fault in when I read MRA stuff. What percentage of rape accusations are false and are made by a woman purposely trying to hurt a man rather than to get justice for a crime that was committed? I have come to know a few women in my life whom have been raped or sexually assaulted but I’m counting about 0 men in my life that have had to deal with false accusations.
After reading a lot of people (mostly MRA’s up in arms) I have found that the type of false rape accusation they focus on is the rarest type of all, which is a woman intentionally and maliciously falsely accusing a completely innocent man of rape.
My guess is that the vast majority of false rape accusations are more towards the end of a victim misidentifying her abuser than some one trying to ruin a man’s life. Please note that this happens in all violent crime, not just rape.
In order to be put in jail for rape there needs to be evidence. He said she said does not tend to hold up in a court of law. Sure it sucks to go through but what’s the likelihood you are going to go through it?
I really wonder how many women get raped and don’t even report it vs. how many men end up in a court of law accused of a rape they didn’t commit. I’m going to completely make a guess that more rape goes unreported than men get falsely accused of rape. Doesn’t that concern men?
Sure, it’s sad that it happens some times but I can’t believe how many articles I’ve read that make it seem like this is an even more horrible injustice being done to men than say, all the rape that goes on in the world.
Where is the compassion? Rape is a horrible thing and I hope it never happens to people I love or anybody really.
Where I could get on board with MRAs is if they would take the approach that rape is a really bad thing and obviously there have been some problems with it so we should find ways to make the most accurate ways to uncover it and fight accurately it rather than spending their time whining that lightning strikes random guys who put their dick in crazy.
Why can’t we as men recognize that there is a big problem here. I can’t see why you don’t see guys writing more really thoughtful pieces on consent to educate both boys and girls as to what they are really getting into when they have sex. Why aren’t guys trying to find the best way to identify rape perpetrators and help make the system more full proof to catch the actual, you know, rapists, so that the women in our lives can be a little safer and a guy can breathe a little easier about not being accused of a crime you didn’t commit? That is, if it really is something you worry about happening to you in the first place.
Somehow I’ve managed to meet my fair share of girls and not be accused of rape and so have many, many of my friends. I wouldn’t consider that lucky as much as I’d consider that normal.
Sorry to go off on that, both sides have their things that I read and I’m just like “stop being such dumb asses” and that just happens to be one for me with the MRA blogs I’ve read.
Jack
3 months ago
Great points Zac!
I think the rape thing is a huge point with many important ramifications. Many people I have spoken too (and a depressing number of women too) seem to want to call more attention to the small number of women who “cry wolf” and ignore the fact that rape conviction rates (particularly in Scotland) are shockingly low.
I (like you) strongly doubt that there are significant numbers of women evilly plotting to falsely accuse men of rape and feel confident there are more men (sadly) exploiting the difficulties of gaining a conviction in this case.
Mark Manson
3 months ago
I don’t know the exact numbers, but I’m certain that un-reported rapes out-pace falsely reported rapes by quite a large margin.
Jaynee
22 weeks ago
@Mark, I can’t help but believe that this is so. One time when my sister and some childhood friends got together, I confessed about two molestation instances that I’d never told anyone about, and was horrified to discover that each one of us had had experiences of being violated, to varying degrees. And we’d all felt the same way about reporting it: unless you are severely beaten or have extremely compelling evidence of the crime, who is going to believe you? It’s so important for more people to realize just how common sex crimes are.
Jason
3 months ago
Thanks for the podcast!
One thing that struck me was that you still talk A LOT about “The PUA community”, “tactics” and “manipulation”, whereas actually for most people it’s a horse beaten to death long ago. RSD had moved on, David Deangelo had moved on, and it seems like you’re the only one who didn’t, still clinging to that non-existent mental concept of POOAHs manipulating poor girls.
The most interesting thing was listening to you laugh about “anti-pua dating advice sites”. No offence, but my immediate reaction was “Jesus, how can he not realise he’s talking about himself?”. Kinda like Rorschach test LOL.
Now, I want to make one thing very clear: I’m an avid reader of your blog and I totally love and appreciate the content you put out. Do you think it might be even better without that outdated “pua-detox” gimmick?
Mark Manson
3 months ago
I’m going to nitpick your definitions here Jason.
People seem to take whatever definition of “PUA” they want these days. PUA was a community based on objectifying your emotional relationships in order to have more sex, whether it be through routines, “natural game,” or whatever. RSD is absolutely still a “PUA” company. Everyone has been disassociating from the term for marketing reasons, but they’re basically the same as they were in 2008, same with all of the other companies, and same with the so-called “anti-PUA’s” who continue to objectify their social lives, just in different ways.
As for me, I’ve never said that PUA stuff doesn’t work. It can. I’ve just warned people about the emotional dangers of it and encouraged them to stop objectifying people.
But yes, it is a dead horse and I make a point to rarely talk about it anymore (the last post I did on PUA’s was in April). Clarisse and I discussed it because she wrote a book about it. And being a woman who spent time within the scene, she has an interesting perspective.
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
I was pretty much done with the PUA community last year, and it was hitting some serious change territory while I was obsessed with it. Even Adam Lyons, when I interviewed him this year during my book release (March), was saying that the PUA approach is outdated and it’s gonna be a new landscape. So, you’re right that some of my experience is based on older stuff; honestly I barely keep up with it anymore. That said, change is never fast.
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
Also, I just checked … Roissy is still blogging :p
Arnie
3 months ago
I enjoyed this podcast, but I am not sure if both of you have a correct perception of the contemporary pick-up artist community. Although I have never been actively involved, I have been a member of one of the main pick-up forums & I still regularly check the topics that are posted.
I observe the following things being recommended:
- laugh with women
- be relaxed
- treat women with respect; love women for who they are
- always leave women better off than you found them
- don’t neg
- be honest
etc.
Furthermore, guys are very supportive when you talk about topics such as love, emotions, vulnerability, relationships, & ‘the one’. These have become part of the pick-up artist community, if you will. Lastly, in order to become good with women, I have never, ever seen anybody recommend learning routines & tactics. Instead, people advice things as: stop reading & start going out & talk to people, take more initiative, take the lead, have more fun, meditate, and: be more direct instead of indirect.
Surely I can point to some less-positive aspects of the pua-community (in particular, I’m not sure if it’s healthy to be so focused on having more success with women; perhaps a more general self-improvement focus would be better. Furthermore, I sometimes have the feeling that part of these types of advice also come forth out of some kind of political-correctness, as if people are saying: “look how great I am, I am super honest, show my vulnerability on the forum & treat women like queens: I am a much better person than Mystery & the old-school pua’s!”). Nevertheless, even though I could be wrong(/biased), I still feel as if your perspectives on PUA are a bit biased (as well). Apart from that great podcast guys!
Mark Manson
3 months ago
Really depends which forums you’re going to. I can think of a few off the top of my head that are still cringe-worthy, not to mention a dozen blogs or so.
The whole PUA thing is becoming a lot more integrated and emotionally healthy, but that’s really a development just in the last year or so.
Zac
3 months ago
I’ve belonged to one of the largest longest standing active meetup PUA groups in the the US for 2 1/2+ years. I ran going out events for the group for about a year of that up until early 2012. I’m still a member of the forum and I check it form time to time. Many guys still have a lot of the toxic beliefs that you claim PUA has moved past. Sure, some PUA’s are moving in a much healthier direction but it’s not the majority, at least from what I can see.
You have to realize that almost every new person that comes in comes in with a pretty basic set of PUA beliefs and it’s only the guys that have been around for a really long time that work it out of them after months of discussion. Try Googling “PUA” and see what the first 10 things that come up are. Then imagine the types of guys who did that that get into it and how long it takes for them to get to a place with healthy views.
I give PUA credit that it gets guys going on this journey though. Many guys are content to make no effort to improve their lives or learn more about themselves and I do respect the fact that involving yourself in the community probably means you want to be the best guy you can. Some guys go different ways with it and abuse it but that’s can true with everything.
I think at the heart of it PUA can be a very helpful beautiful thing for a guy but there is just a lot of really, really negative stuff mixed in and if you are a guy coming up through a “PUA” frame of development it’s easy to catch some really toxic or negative beliefs that could be avoided if you didn’t subscribe to that school of improving your life. Even where they get a lot right, they get a lot wrong. Sure, you’ll get some positive and helpful beliefs and befits as well but you could get those anywhere, plenty of guys learn how to get girls simply by going out on their own and talking to girls.
BCN
3 months ago
Loved this one.
Can PM #4 be with Jesus John, even if on the phone.
Your talk about him got us really curious, and hearing him must be enlightening, to say the least
arthur
3 months ago
Hello, Thanks for the interview.
I have a terrible connection at the moment which has made it difficult to make it through the whole thing.
Just on the feminist note I recently heard this interview
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/karen-of-girlwriteswhat-interview-the-femanist-fallacy-146/
It really blew me away and would be interesting to get some thoughts on it.
Enjoy.
Alvar
3 months ago
Wow, she is brutal. Mark, just listen to the first few minutes and you’ll want to have her on the podcast
Thanks for sharing.
The Jester's Blog
3 months ago
This podcast was very insightful. I always like hearing what people say when pointing out the flaws of the PUA community, because I don’t believe in the “perfect” dating program. Individuality prevents any cookie-cutter method from having a 100% success rate.
Had to link to this from my blog.
Zuperman
3 months ago
Zac asked for the numbers of false rape accusations. Studies indicate they are high:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape
This one is in Danish but is highly important because of the level of certainty involved in classifying false accusations. 7,3% of the rape accusations where considered by the police to be provably or very certainly false. Meaning that they either got confessions from the women, had strong witness observations or other strong evidence contradicting their claims. So the real number of false claims has to be much higher as they are very hard to prove conclusively. The study was based on a review of all Danish Rape accusations in a two year period:
http://www.dkr.dk/sites/default/files/Voldtaegt-del-II-falsk.pdf
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
Actually, no. False rape accusations are rare and the percentage is on par with other crimes (i.e., there is a similar percentage of false rape accusations as there is of theft, murder, etc).
Zuperman
3 months ago
Firstly, the rate of false reports of theft, murder and other crimes is not similar to the rates for rape even if the rate for rape was 5,9% because the rate of unfounded claims of crimes in general are between 1 and 2 percent.
Secondly, this study found the number 5,9% by counting cases with very solid proof of a false report. Considering that in most cases it is not possible to prove a claim is false through other witnesses, video footage etc. and that confessions are likely to be very rare it is obvious that the actual rate of false accusations are much higher. Remember that a false accusation is a crime and can land you in prison. Confessions (about a third of the 7,3%) in the Danish study frequently led to prosecution and so was most likely gained predominantly when the police had solid enough evidence of a false acusation that a confession was the best route to get a sentence discount for the false claim. This would be the case in any place where a false accusation is punishable. Even when it is not punishable or rarely prosecuted there is zero reason to believe the police would get confessions in more than a few of the cases where the accusation is false and there is no other evidence supporting that the claim is false. So, logically it is obvious beyond any reasonable doubt that the actual rate is far higher than the rate of proven false reports. Actually this is exactly the same logic as saying only the rape accusations that are proven to be correct are true and all others are false, which obviously is not the case as many, many cases of report can not be proven. The same applies to false rape claims.
Furthermore, the study you linked to has 136 cases, I think it was, and the danish study has over 1300 and includes all reports in a two year period in Denmark and finds exactly the same numbers as a previous study with equal numbers done ten years earlier making the total somewhere around 2600 cases which makes it a lot more solid. About 20 times more solid.
In addition one of the links I made showed examples of many studies with most of them placing the number somewhere between 8% and 25%. That you choose to rely on a single study with only 136 cases as opposed to the combined evidence of the sum total of studies I find highly questionable.
Here is an article that documents how feminists spread the illusion that there was scientific evidence that only 2% false rape accusations, which would make it on par with false reports of other crimes. One feminist spread the number without any evidence of it, then the claim got referred to in a scientific journal, then that article was referred to by other and yet other scientific articles creating the illusion that the number was backed on actual research having been done. This demonstrates how their interest was in creating a belief that the number was so low it was negligible, not actually figuring out what the real number was. This is the kind of thing that has made me loose faith in feminists (I used to be a feminist myself for years).
http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2216&context=llr
The site you linked to calls those working for the interests of those falsely accused the pro rape lobby. I find that a despicable form of dishonest rhetoric. I take rape very seriously. I have friends who have been raped and the thought of someone getting raped fills me with violent rage. I have also been in a situation where one member of a group of intoxicated and violent homeless boys suggested that they rape me so I know personally what that fear feels like. I also know two people who was falsely accused of rape. One spent 1,5 years in jail before the accuser confessed she only accused him as revenge because he did not want to be her boyfriend after they had sex and the other managed to prove his innocence before the case got to court. I take both types of crimes very seriously. Currently there is a widespread belief that false rape reports are extremely rare and not a problem. The research strongly suggests otherwise.
Zuperman
3 months ago
The real extent to which men are raped (and frequently by women) is hidden in the statistics:
http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/gender-and-sexual-violence-manufacturing-victimhood-marginalizing-victims/
I`ve heard and read about how many women are raped in South Africa dozens of times but never once before I read this that the number of men raped is about equal and that the perpetrator is very frequently female. The fact that reporters read these reports and then only report the amount of rape of females is evidence of the need for MRAs. The fact that feminists who have written about rape of women in South Africa also have seen the numbers on men getting raped there and getting raped by women there but choose to never mention it and frame it as a women only problem speaks volumes about who they are and what their agenda is:
http://www.genderratic.com/p/1392/its-shit-like-this-feminists/
You constantly hear about and read about women being raped in war what you don`t hear about is this:
http://www.genderratic.com/p/1311/if-it-happened-to-men/
“Not only are men being raped but NGOs are covering up the atrocity for fear of losing funding for female victims of war rape.”
Take note on the RESISTANCE to those numbers getting known from the people working to prevent rape of women and help female rape victims.
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
I’m curious about the definitions of violence being used in these papers. I don’t deny that men being raped is an unacknowledged problem (which, by the way, is much more commonly discussed by feminists than by the mainstream, which tends to mock it). But I wonder whether part of the issue is that NGO activists are focusing on violent (and therefore more visible/physically obvious) rapes, which I suspect are significantly more likely to happen to women.
(One thing I think is ironic about MRA talking points is that there’s a certain movement that put a LOT of work into enabling society to recognize and discuss rapes that don’t involve physical harm … what was that movement? Oh yeah. Feminism.)
Zuperman
3 months ago
I`m not sure. But consider this. While many of the men where raped by women a very high percentage where raped by men. I´d say anal rape would lead to the worst type of physical damage from rape. The number probably also includes anal rape with objects which would lead to even more damage. So no there is zero reason to believe the men are damaged less or raped less violently. If I had to choose I`d guess the men where raped more violently both because there would presumably be a higher instance of anal rape (although that would happen to a lot of the women as well) and because I would guess men would be more likely to put up a fight and be badly beaten in the process. But I don`t know anything about that.
I have noticed some rare few feminists taking about rape of men but mostly my experience with them in bringing forth these facts has been extremely negative. In the local media the feminists concerned with sexual abuse and those working in shelters have for the most part vehemently denied the numbers being anything but minuscule, tried to only keep the focus on female victims, been resistant towards resources being given to help male victims etc. My trust in feminists in these matters is very low. The experience has been analogous to discussing domestic violence with them. They always present it as a female problem and have fought vehemently against against accepting the high numbers of women who hit the men they are with (equal or slightly more so than men who hit women). Considering the fact that studies have consistently reported this finding for decades and that most studies show numbers for both men and women and that the feminists who speak publicly about domestic violence have read those studies it shows that they have tried to downplay the numbers for men and only focus on the numbers for women. All the campaigns frame domestic violence as a patriarchal thing with men as sole perpetrator and women as the victim in all cases. This is feminist spread myth and to me shows their true colors as movement. Erin Pizzey, who started the first shelter for battered women In England (and I think maybe the world), quickly found out that a staggeringly high percentage of the women who came to the centers where as violent as the men they where fleeing from and wanted to start a center for men as well. She has since tried to spread knowledge of the studies showing gender parity in frequency of domestic violence and has been consistently harassed by feminists and have consistently for decades experienced massive hostility from feminists simply for trying to spread awareness of the real numbers. In the 70s she had to leave the country for fear of her life after receiving too many death threats and her dog being killed to scare her. This study documents consistent efforts to undermine the knowledge of female violence against men:
http://elusivewapiti.blogspot.no/2012/06/some-facts-about-domestic-violence.html
That basically sums up why I lost faith in feminism and have zero faith in feminists in general being in any way sympatethic to work for male victims of rape, men falsely accused, men that are victims of domestic violence or just mens interests in general. I acknowledge that you have had some rare exceptions to this and that some change has happened. However, that change has come after the real numbers have been pushed out there against intense opposition every step of the way. That is what I have consistently experienced, that is what i have continually observed in the media and that is what Erin Pizzey experienced for decades. So that a larger subset of feminists are now grudgingly accepting some of these facts does not tell me anything positive about them, that they so late and with so much opposition have just started to accept the obvious demonstrates they are part of the problem. In all the mentioned cases, rape, false rape accusations and domestic violence I experience way more support and less opposition from the average guy or girl than I do from feminists.
Zuperman
3 months ago
Actually, you demonstrated my point about feminists being a problem in this regard when you claimed that false rape accusations where on par with other false crime reports. Even your own study showed a minimum of 5,9% false rape claims which is several hundred percent more than the 1-2% (it varies from year to year) that is the real number of false crime reports. So you claimed a number for false crime reports that was way, way higher than the real number in order to make false rape claims look as less of a problem despite not having checked the numbers. I guess you must have picked up that number in feminist circles which further demonstrates that they take preferable numbers out of the air and circulate them without anyone actually checking. Otherwise where did you get it from and if feminists actually wanted to know the realities of this the real number would circulate. Futhermore, you used a tiny study of 136 cases in one university as proof against my study of ALL Danish rape accusations in a two year period combined with a bunch of other studies. To me that demonstrates you just want the number to be as low as possible again demonstrating that feminists aren`t exactly helpful when it comes to these matters. If feminists actually did concern themselves with the truth of these things I would know because I used to define myself as one and it was precisely the intense opposition and consistent effort to downplay any problem concerning men that drove me away from them.
Zac
3 months ago
Are all feminists the same?
Zuperman
3 months ago
No, they are not all the same. I mentioned that there where a few rare exceptions so your question is already answered in my post. The point is that feminism as a movement have consistently fought against getting the real numbers out there and have spread the myth of men as solely responsible for domestic violence and women as sole victim. THey have really fought hard to establish that myth despite the feminist researchers the media uses having read countless studies showing that women hit as often or slightly more often and far more often hit first where the violent is mutual. It isn`t only that they have opposed the real numbers getting out there they have been responsible for spreading the one sided view actively. The same pattern shows with regards to rape of men and false rape accusations. So although in later years SOME feminists have started to acpet these realities and some have even started working to help these men and spread knowledge about their plight there is something in feminism that easily and consistently leads them to disregard the interests of men and in the mentioned cases work hard against the interests of men. As this pattern is so consistent amongst feminist I don`t find the few exceptions much reason to view the movement in much more positive light. Especially, as I mentioned because it took decades before there was almost any feminists that accepted any of this and when they did it was only because non feminists consistently could back up the real numbers until they could not deny them anymore. This tells me their default mode is to work for women’s interest and not only ignore mens interests but work against them. As a male I have been consistently vilified and demonized by feminists solely for being male since I was a kid. Something was seriously wrong with me just for being male was what I internalized from teachers and from feminists in the media. What Dorris Lessing describes here is consistent with my experience in school:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/aug/14/edinburghfestival2001.edinburghbookfestival2001
Sorry, but I just don`t have sympathy left for feminists. That does not mean I don`t take issues concerning women seriously, after all I defined myself as a feminist for years and was very concerned about not oppressing women, I just don`t accept their worldview of women being any more oppressed in the western world today than men are and I find that they consistently work for women’s interests also when that comes at the expense at mens interest. Pelle Billings blog does a great job at exposing that. My vies are basically consistent with his so if your curious his blog will provide you with an in depth example of how I view the world.
Clarisse Thorn
3 months ago
I’ve left some links, other people can read them and think about this stuff on their own. I’m bowing out; I don’t have time for many-paragraph arguments.
Zuperman
3 months ago
“Stemple’s findings on the failure of aid agencies is no surprise to Dolan. “The organisations working on sexual and gender-based violence don’t talk about it,” he says. “It’s systematically silenced. If you’re very, very lucky they’ll give it a tangential mention at the end of a report. You might get five seconds of: ‘Oh and men can also be the victims of sexual violence.’ But there’s no data, no discussion.”
As part of an attempt to correct this, the RLP produced a documentary in 2010 called Gender Against Men. When it was screened, Dolan says that attempts were made to stop him. “Were these attempts by people in well-known, international aid agencies?” I ask.
“Yes,” he replies. “There’s a fear among them that this is a zero-sum game; that there’s a pre-defined cake and if you start talking about men, you’re going to somehow eat a chunk of this cake that’s taken them a long time to bake.” Dolan points to a November 2006 UN report that followed an international conference on sexual violence in this area of East Africa.
“I know for a fact that the people behind the report insisted the definition of rape be restricted to women,” he says, adding that one of the RLP’s donors, Dutch Oxfam, refused to provide any more funding unless he’d promise that 70% of his client base was female. He also recalls a man whose case was “particularly bad” and was referred to the UN’s refugee agency, the UNHCR. “They told him: ‘We have a programme for vulnerable women, but not men.’””
So, zero reasons to excuse the agencies. They know exactly what they are doing. Note especially the point about trying to restrict the definition of rape to only women. This is exactly what has been in the US more covertly where a woman forcing a man to penetrate her is not defined as rape but as other sexual assault. Only men who are themselves penetrated are defined as rape. If you include the number of men who has been forced to penetrate the number of raped men in the US statistics TRIPLES.
Zuperman
3 months ago
Someone requested an MRA site that was sensible. Pelle Billings site is very good and sensible and has quite a bit of female commentary. He is becoming a highly respected debater in Sweden and just published his first book (in Swedish unfortunately for anyone here that might be interested). He has an English blog in addition to his swedish blog:
http://www.pellebilling.com/
This is also a non hostile and very good site:
http://owningyourshit.blogspot.no/
Mark Manson
3 months ago
Thanks, will check them out.