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G12 Government of Twelve Principle of Twelve Part 3

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  • G12 Government of Twelve Principle of Twelve Part 3

    G12 / Government of Twelve / Principle of Twelve Part 3

    Main Thread = http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/3444.html
    Part 2 Thread = http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/12348.html

  • #2
    <font color="119911"><font siz

    <font color="119911"><font size="+2">G12 NEW THREAD PART 3</font></font>

    Please be sure to read <font color="ff0000"><font size="+1">Part1</font></font> and <font color="ff0000"><font size="+1">Part2</font></font>

    Comment


    • #3
      Lighthouse, I�m glad you moved

      Lighthouse, I�m glad you moved to a new thread � much faster to load

      Nobody777 I can tell you are very passionate in what you believe about G12. I too am passionate in my support of G12. As I�ve said before I do not wish to railroad over anyone�s feelings here as I don�t doubt what you�ve experienced whilst in a G12 church � you concur with many others. However I do wish to challenge you on a few statements you made in your earlier posts.

      Nowhere in G12 is someone told that any man is to be centre of a person�s walk with God. That is frankly an outrageous claim and a misrepresentation.

      Discipleship is however an important part of the Christian faith, and one that has been in resurgence this century within the church after being almost forgotten for centuries &#40;save in times of renewal&#41;.

      Jesus taught his followers to go and make disciples of all nations, and commanded them to teach those disciples to obey everything he had taught them to do &#40;presumably that includes the same command?&#41; As taught on School of Leaders the point of discipleship is to help another believer become more Christlike.

      Men are closely tied to discipleship. From the warmth with which you speak about Chuck and Jan I am guessing that they have played something like a discipleship role in your life. To have friends like that is a gift from God. Yet I bet they have had to challenge you at times? You see all of us �look through a glass darkly� when it comes to the things of God. We are born into a world where &#40;like in the Matrix film&#41; we have to unlearn worldly concepts and thought patterns. If we are thinking wrongly, and our own reading of the bible doesn�t highlight this &#40;and this can happen!&#41;, then it takes another believer to point this out at times.

      Now yes Jesus said he was sending the Holy Spirit to lead and guide his disciples, but how does this �eliminate any need or validity for a G12 model�. In saying so does it also eliminate the need for any church model�.or indeed any leader who is a man? Reading the book of Acts we see that James, brother of Jesus, was in fact the leader of the New Testament church. Having a leader was obviously important to the apostles, yet this did not get in the way of the Holy Spirit and His leading of the church.

      Now regarding formulas, if indeed we find ourselves being formulaic in our church or walk with God then yes we are being legalistic. If this is the case it is best to leave G12 alone, or rediscover the heart of it. If we are being legalistic ourselves then we do run the risk of leading people in slavery. I however have found a great freedom in my faith and really find the framework of the G12 model actually brings me a �liberating order� enabling me to play my part better in the Great Commission with focus. Far from replacing the commands of Jesus to make disciples of all nations, I am now feeling more ready for the task.

      Comment


      • #4
        Isra,

        Thanks for your respo

        Isra,

        Thanks for your response and for addressing some of my concerns. It seems clear we are on different planets with respect to how each of us defines the Lord�s Church and �leadership� within it. Rather than take a book to respond to the issue of church leadership here, may I recommend my website again &#40;http://truthforfree.com&#41; and, specifically, the article I have written called �Who Are The Clergy�.

        You Wrote:
        Nowhere in G12 is someone told that any man is to be centre of a person�s walk with God. That is frankly an outrageous claim and a misrepresentation.

        I�m afraid I must disagree with you here Isra. The G12 website has taught this, perhaps to your ignorance. In fact, there used to be diagrams on the site that looked like a Multi-Level Marketing scheme &#40;a center circle with lines pointing out to 12 other circles&#41;. In the center circle was a label titled �MAIN LEADER�. This is a fact. The term �Main Leader� is also used frequently in their literature. I have misrepresented nothing. The whole point of G12 is to �raise up leaders� to govern other groups of 12. The entire system is about human leadership! Isra, I don�t doubt the sincerity of your opinion that G12 is a good thing, but your attempt to convince me or anyone else that G12 is not about placing man at the center of a person�s walk with God could easily be construed as insulting to our intelligence. If G12 were not about human leaders at the center, then there would be no need for G12 because G12 is all about government in the hands of men. And why else do you think the program shifted from being called �Groups� of 12 in the beginning to �GOVERNMENT� of 12? It�s all about human leaders! Again, I reiterate to you the Scriptures. Jesus to His followers:

        Matthew 20:25-26 - But having called them, Jesus said, You know that the rulers of the nations exercise lordship over them, and the great ones exercise authority over them &#40;hierarchical leadership&#41;. But it will NOT be so among you. But whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.

        Matthew 23:10 � Do NOT be called leaders, for One is your Leader, the Christ.

        &#40;continued next post&#41;

        Comment


        • #5
          &#40;continued from previous p

          &#40;continued from previous post&#41;

          The official G12 website OPENLY regards pastors as being CEOs of corporations and it regards the Church as a business enterprise! &#40;http://visiong12.com/eng/g12vision/&#41; This is not a Scriptural definition of either. Again, G12 presents a different doctrine than that of Scripture!

          G12 has a clever little label they call �consolidation�. Sounds a lot less domineering to the unsuspecting onlooker or new convert, but it holds reference to a mindset where by the �disciple� is taught that governance in matters of faith is consolidated in his leader and that his leader is directly responsible for him. Many folks understand that the term consolidate is generally used in a political respect, where by an �official� consolidates his or her power/authority and establishes their strength of influence and position. His/her objective is to gather others under him/her to accomplish various goals. Isra, do you really expect me to believe that G12 does not place men at the center?

          It is impossible to read the G12 steps of consolidation and not see the fact that the G12 model makes priests of men to mediate a person�s relationship with God. The main G12 website even says it plainly that when a person raises their hand to accept Jesus, that marks the beginning of the leaders RESPONSIBILITY for their life!

          Yes, I�m passionate� but my passion is for the truth. I have never been a member of a G12 group and I never will be. My opinions are based on Scripture, conscience and examination of the materials offered by this program. I have had several friends who have been involved in G12 churches as well and so I am also acquainted with their experiences.

          As for Chuck and Jan, yes I speak affectionately about them. I love them! They are my brothers and sisters in Christ� they are not my leaders, disciplers, or spiritual fathers. They are family in God. We stand on equal ground in the faith, mutually building one another up. What a shame to see how many others &#40;like those who are slaves to various models and formulas&#41; feel they must interpret their faith constantly in terms of hierarchical rulership among men. That is not fellowship. In fact, that has nothing to do with the Gospel at all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Dave

            How long since you mov

            Dave

            How long since you moved away from G12?

            Lighthouse

            Comment


            • #7
              Isra, you also said:
              &#34;Now

              Isra, you also said:
              &#34;Now yes Jesus said he was sending the Holy Spirit to lead and guide his disciples, but how does this �eliminate any need or validity for a G12 model�. In saying so does it also eliminate the need for any church model�.or indeed any leader who is a man?&#34;

              My response to that questions is that the burden of proof rests on your shoulders here, not mine. You ask me, &#34;how does the Holy Spirit&#39;s coming eliminate the need for a model?&#34; But you first have to prove, biblically, that it demonstrates the need for it. My statement was not out of harmony with Scripture and I gave several references clarifying my reason. The boldest reason I will repeat &#40;God&#39;s words not my own&#41;:

              1 John 2:27 - But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so YOU DON&#39;T NEED ANYONE TO TEACH YOU WHAT IS TRUE. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true-it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.

              Isra, the G12 program teaches G12 as being an essential component to accomplish the Great Commission as God intends it. It has been touted by its founder, since the beginning, that this is THE model for discipleship - given to him by God himself! So, again, the burden of proof rests on you who support G12 to prove it from Scripture... NOT on those who disagree to disprove it.

              To answer the last part of your question, does it eliminate the need for any church model? YES! Because the Church of Jesus Christ is NOT a model. It is people who are assembled spiritually in Christ; born into His family and members of His body. The Church is not a building, a program, or a &#34;model&#34;. It is organic and alive!

              Finally, Scripture does not call us to pursue hierarchy in the body. It calls us to love one another, bear one another&#39;s burdens, and submit to one another in love. Some will be called and gifted by God to give oversight to their brethren at various seasons along the journey, but this is a gifting by God &#40;that transpires in the atmosphere of relationship&#41;, not something that is achieved by formulaic process or a church program. Again, Scripture does not teach a formula. It teaches:

              Ephesians 4:5-8 - There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and there is only one God and Father, who is over us all and in us all and living through us all. However, he has given each one of us a special gift according to the generosity of Christ. That is why the Scriptures say, &#34;When he ascended to the heights, he led a crowd of captives and gave gifts to his people.&#34;

              GOD GIVES - Man does not program. Time and again there appears no evidence of a G12 mindset in the Scriptures. I understand you have been convinced by the leaders who taught it to you and by the testimony you have observed, but what about the truth of Scripture and God&#39;s design for His family? Are we at luxury to sidestep His Word for fear as to the chance it might offend our man-made ideas?

              I do not intend with these words to suggest I somehow know your heart bro or that I am &#34;against&#34; you. You may have the best of intentions and a sincere heart to encourage people in the faith. Praise God for that. My appeal is to the truth of Scripture and I hope that will be our common ground, despite what it may mean for our individual pet doctrines &#40;cause we all have them&#41;.

              Comment


              • #8
                Nobody777, strong words.

                I

                Nobody777, strong words.

                I don&#39;t know about &#34;different planets&#34; as you put it, but perhaps we do disagree on leadership in the church - though I&#39;m not sure yet....

                I&#39;ve read those pages on the visiong12 site and do not consider myself ignorant. Rather I speak from personal experience of G12 - something which you admittedly do not have.

                School of Leaders, during the discourse on discipleship, teaches about the importance of servant leadership. As I&#39;ve said before this has been modelled to me and I live to do likewise for those the Lord brings me. I recognise that not everyone here has been fortunate enough to experience good leadership, but that is no fault with the model.

                I think I&#39;ve seen the diagrams you reference where the term &#34;Main Leader&#34; is used. I think you&#39;ll find this is used to distinguish that particular cell leader from others as the cells multiply. This diagram is used to illustrate to people starting out on SOL the power of discpling others to maturity in Christ - i.e. those they help reach maturity in Christ then become effective witnesses and indirectly these SOL attendees have helped win many others. The &#34;Main Leader&#34; in the diagram shows the ripple effect of raising up true disciples of Christ!

                As for pastors being &#34;CEO&#39;s&#34;......On the VisionG12 site I think you&#39;ll find the term describing the Church as &#34;the most important enterprise of a nation&#34;. Perhaps this statement would strike a cord with the Wesley brothers, William Booth, Charles Finney and others who saw the Church as the great vehicle for change that it should be - having a mandate to bring the gospel &#40;FULL salvation, healing and deliverance&#41; to mankind. What could be a more important enterprise for a nation? Sadly businesses often have a greater idea of excellence than the Church, and a greater committment to their mission statement.

                Returning to my previous post....why do you think it was important to the early church to have James as leader?

                And if I may, are you part of a local church with a leader?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Nobody777,

                  &#60;&#60; You a

                  Nobody777,

                  &#60;&#60; You ask me, &#34;how does the Holy Spirit&#39;s coming eliminate the need for a model? But you first have to prove, biblically, that it demonstrates the need for it.&#34; &#62;&#62;

                  I simply asked does it eliminate the need for any church model? I think you&#39;ve answered my question. If I&#39;m reading you &#40;and the articles from your site correctly&#41; then &#34;yes&#34; you do.

                  My perspective is that the early church obviously had some model and decorum on what was appropriate and what was not for their meetings. It also seems to me that Jesus saught to &#34;model&#34; something in his discipleship of the first apostles that he expected them to pass onto and model to others.

                  1 John 2:27 - I think you have quoted this scripture out of context. Scripture deals with Antichrists - i.e. those v22 &#34;who deny Jesus is Lord&#34;. One could try to represent G12 as this, but there is no justification - Jesus is preached as Lord.

                  I assure you I have been raised a very Orthodox Christian &#40;son of a Presbyterian minister&#41; and schooled at University in Theology. What the scriptures say are very important to me.

                  Are you part of a local church? This will really help me understand your answers, for right now I am finding it difficult to grasp your perspective.

                  &#40;Message edited by isra on December 12, 2006&#41;

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Lighthouse,

                    anything more o

                    Lighthouse,

                    anything more on what you were saying about MCI Sunderland? I will enquire about the contract you mentioned.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Lighthouse. [img]http://www

                      Hi Lighthouse.

                      As I mentioned in one of my prior posts to Isra, I have never been directly involved in a G12 program, which is why I can honestly say that my comments are not the result of a &#34;bad experience&#34; or wounds by leadership.

                      However, I have met people who have come out of some abusive church situations and, as I said, I have friends who also came out of the G12 program. My heart goes out to them and anyone who gets captivated with anything slighted away from the simple Gospel of Jesus. I have compassion there because I can relate in many respects.

                      I apologize if my sometimes spirited replies come across as overly critical of individuals who are simply sharing their own opinions. I have tried not to make any personal criticism other than my criticism of the G12 model. While I am on the subject, I do apologize to Isra if anything I said struck you as a personal attack because of my issues with G12. I appreciate your honest and thoughtful responses and you do articulate your opinion well. I simply &#40;unfortunately&#41; disagree.

                      Though I have not been directly involved in G12, I have been involved in church leadership fiascos that give me some basis of reference for how these kinds of mindsets often work and I have had to struggle through and allow the Lord to wash my own mind of the heretical influences that I succumbed to myself in years past. When I left the religious organization I was attending about 6 years ago, I was devastated to find out how much spiritual pride I had and how insecure I really was in my walk with God. I had so much confidence resting in human leaders and there were so many &#34;voices&#34; around me &#40;church friends, books, Christian TV, seminars, prophetic conferences, programs, services, etc.&#41;, all of them instructing me how to live, how to walk, what to believe, what to do, what to feel, etc. Basically, most of these things - while intended to help &#34;grow&#34; believers in Christ - tend to &#40;in my opinion&#41; stunt spiritual growth because it keeps believers dependant on and pacified with many other things besides Christ alone. In my own ignorance at the time, I thought I was wise and mature in God. After all, I had been a faithful church goer for 30 years! I had served in leadership, music ministry, outreach, etc. I also had a nice little seminary degree in theology under my belt to make me feel extra special. ;&#41; The most humbling thing was to admit how weak my relationship with Christ really was &#40;unbeknownst to me&#41;.

                      &#40;continued next post... geesh, why am I always so long-winded? hehehe&#41;

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        &#40;continued from previous b

                        &#40;continued from previous blab... uh, I mean, post&#41;

                        For me it took a stepping away from the whole religious system so that I could become desperate for Christ and content only with learning to hear HIS voice. Not so easy I�m afraid, especially when most of your fellow siblings in Christ constantly prod you to get involved in another church, another program, meeting, or organization. There really does seem to be a general opinion among so many church-attending believers today that you cannot grow without ritual, formula and program. Christ simply is not sufficient, if you were to put things bluntly. And there seems to be an unspoken belief that He really is unable to lead His people without the clever designs of religious men. The whole thing &#40;in my opinion&#41; really fights against relationship with Christ, all the while claiming to be what relationship with Christ is all about. It strikes me as a subtle and powerful deception. One I have fallen to myself in the past but one which I hope I am much wiser to now. I sincerely believe this is one reason I am sensitive to the G12 doctrine and am concerned about its influence. I believe it can be a great distraction away from real relationship with Christ.

                        One of my biggest frustrations with institutionalized religion &#40;and likewise models like G12&#41; is that it fosters an atmosphere of perpetual babyhood. That is why most church-going Christians always believe they need a pastor/leader &#34;over&#34; them their whole life. If you were to parallel this with a natural family, you would call it dysfunctional because children are supposed to grow up and move on... not stay at home with daddy spoon feeding them.

                        Anyway, it has been the greatest journey I&#39;ve ever known &#40;walking with the Lord and my family in Christ outside the boundaries of organized religion&#41; and though it&#39;s also come with its share of trials I honestly wouldn&#39;t trade it for a typical church routine ever again. That having been said, I still have friends and family who are involved in various church programs. I love them dearly. We are all responsible according to our level of knowledge and I trust that God is able to speak to each one on their journey if they are willing to listen.

                        God bless,
                        Dave

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Isra, would you kindly explain

                          Isra, would you kindly explain to me where in the book of Acts it says that James was the leader of the New Testament Church?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dave

                            You clearly have had y

                            Dave

                            You clearly have had your battle with the religious spirit and I�m sure you are not saying that we don�t need leaders in the faith, however I have found that those hurt from previous &#34;Lording it&#34; experiences take much time to trust again. If I can give you my experience and I will share quickly so as to get to the point.

                            I was in leadership in a UK G12 church. God told me 1 year before I left the church that would be leaving. I was a successful leader right up to the month when I told my leader &#40;The Pastor&#41; I was leaving. I left quickly with my family and &#34;in love&#34;. I left the group I had been leading to the church. Many questions were asked but the church went on as usual.

                            I was attacked with all kinds of condemnation which I know now was witchcraft. And before this offends anyone let me say that I still battle with witchcraft in my own congregation today. When I use this word it can make others think of pointy hats and warts, but I would challenge all of us to root out witchcraft in our own lives including me. Did Jesus not call Peter the apostle, satan? &#40;not Peter but the spirit operating through him&#41;. Non of us are righteous except through Christ. Many of us operate with witchcraft when we operate in fear. Fear is a landing pad for witchcraft. The church operates also when fear comes into the congregation. This is not a person thing its a spirit thing. This is why I can say I even today love my old pastor and even CCD.

                            We must be careful to look out for the enemies double jeopardy in all this. I am now leading a church but I would never have done so without the accountability of another leader who I trust to speak into my life and check my spirit. Leadership is good in the eyes of God. It keeps pride and rebellion in check. I do not use the word &#34;covering&#34; in this accountability because no one but Christ covers my sin.

                            &#40;Continued Below&#41;

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              When I left the G12 church the

                              When I left the G12 church the pastor told me I could not hear God unless he was told by God first because God never usurps his authority on earth, a John Bevere teaching that all were told to watch and submit to in theG12 church I attended. Again this may not have been a plan of Bogot� but many other G12 churches also had this teaching. In my ex church it was used to &#34;Lord it&#34; over the congregation.

                              I understand why Isra talks about leadership in the way that he does because I also have a revelation about accountability, but I wont call it covering. If I should fall into pride then those that use me for their accountability &#40;speaking into their lives&#41;, have someone to ask to check me. Godly leadership is in the bible and operates through love not fear. I have had rebukes from those God has placed as my accountability but the love in them helps me to find a repentant heart. If they tell me to do something that I am not convinced by then I can question them, and I do. I will not blindly follow them and they don�t expect me to. If they would operate in pride then I have another leader they trust who speaks into their lives and can bring Gods word into any problem. This is the church of Acts. Many of the principles taught in G12 are Godly principles so we need to be careful we don�t fall into an enemy trap here and throw the whole thing out. And lets really try hard not to accuse each other which I think we are doing so far. Just a point of grace for us all.

                              Dave from reading your posts I see you are a passionate follower of Christ. Much of what you have said has been posted before in many ways and it is welcome as a reminder for all of us of who we follow. It also appears from your website that you are trying to bring awareness of the spirit of religion in our churches and that is good. Keep it up.

                              Isra

                              I am waiting for some more info on Ken Gott, it appears at present that AOG have put a stop to dual affiliation because they feel that the new contract is pushing them out of thier accountability for MCI Sunderland.

                              Bless

                              Comment

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