My Complicated Relationship with No Longer Being CEO

Date / dec 25, 2015 / Category / Moz, Personal

It’s been 22 months since I stepped down as the CEO of Moz and turned over the role to my longtime Chief Operating Officer and close friend, Sarah Bird. Since then I’ve recovered from depression, traveled to and keynoted dozens of events, started (and now nearly completed) a new product with a small team at Moz, and kept up my usual tasks – Whiteboard Friday, blogging, SEO experiments, chairing Moz’s board of directors, evangelizing TAGFEE, feminism, and diversity, and being the best husband I can to Geraldine.

_{Waiting backstage before my closing talk at Mozcon Seattle, July 2015 | (photo credit to Rudy Lopez)}

When I stepped down, I changed my title to “Individual Contributor,” an homage to the dual-track system we established at Moz that I so strongly believe in. I only have a single direct report these days, Nicci, my amazing executive admin. The rest of my contributions are as an advisor, evangelist, content creator, board member, and product designer for our Big Data and Research Tools teams (not the UX/UI kind, but the strategic “this is what we’re gonna build and why” kind).

In many ways, it’s a dream job. I’m well paid. I have great benefits. I’m challenged. I work with people I like on projects about which I’m passionate, and most importantly, I get to help people do better marketing…. But it is an immense shift from being CEO. That’s what I want to write about and share today – the difference.

There are two sides to my relationship with the CEO role, and I think I can best sum it up in an oft-repeated exchange I’ve had the last year:

Them: “So, how do you like not being CEO anymore?”
Me: “A lot of it is great – less pressure, fewer meetings, less dealing with people problems, and more doing the work I love.”
Them: “If you had it to do over, would you step down again?”
Me: “I don’t think so. It’s something I regret.”
Them: “Wait… But you just said…”
Me: “I know. It’s complicated.”

There are a great number of things I love about not being CEO. Almost all of it fits under the auspices of freedom. I’m (mostly) free to do the things I believe I’m best at, and to let other folks handle things at which I struggle and don’t have passion for. I’m also deeply thankful to Sarah, who I think has done a great job through an extremely difficult time leading the company and getting us back to growth after my missteps in 2013.

Sarah at Mozcon Ignite (on the stage at Benaroya Hall) in Seattle, July 2015

_{Sarah at Mozcon Ignite (on stage at Benaroya Hall) in Seattle, July 2015}

On the flipside, there are four big reasons I feel regret and frustration over the change in my role:

The catalyst for stepping down was my mental and emotional condition. I regret being unwell and feel anger and resentment at myself for having that weakness (even though I know it’s something I may have been unable to control). I frequently wonder whether my illness sparked the problems at Moz or if causality goes the other way.
_
As CEO, I was perceived to be responsible for the successes, failures, and decisions of the company, and indeed, I had the direct ability to influence those things. As an ex-CEO and founder who’s still actively with the company, those perceptions (both internal and external) haven’t faded much (especially in the web marketing community). I’m still often on the receiving end of that perceived responsibility (certainly from myself, but plenty from folks around the marketing, tech, and startup worlds), but my ability to influence and make decisions is massively diminished. Being perceived as accountable for things that feel outside my control is a deeply frustrating experience.
_
I feel tremendous guilt for putting Sarah and all of Moz in the frustrating position it was left in following my last 6 months as CEO. I’ve documented those mistakes in the past, so won’t rehash them here, but I’ve been unable to forgive myself for the foolish, avoidable lapses in judgement and execution. I have to keep listening to this story in my head for a while longer, and I’m scared that, if Moz doesn’t reach its potential, I’ll be listening to it for the rest of my life.
_
My poor decision-making at the end of my CEO tenure created a legacy that’s stuck around and (probably deservedly) hurt my influence at the company. It’s no fun knowing that some of your co-workers think you’ve done a bad job and are less likely to trust your input or advice in the future. For me, that’s how a fair number of interactions feel, and I have had very direct conversations with Sarah about this. I tremendously appreciate her candor (and those of my other colleagues who’ve been straightforward about this issue), but it only makes me regret the past and wish for the ability to change it more.

That said, I think these last (almost) 2 years have been an incredible opportunity for me to learn what it’s like to be an employee and to live on the other side of the management/individual contributor ecosystem.

Most folks assume that despite no longer being CEO, my position on Moz’s board of directors, on our executive team, and as a founder mean that I still have a tremendous amount of influence over Moz’s day-to-day and high-level strategic decisions. But, by and large, that’s not accurate. My influence on most things Moz, with a few exceptions, is limited to being a single voice in a crowd of many.

One of the most impressive things about Sarah taking on the CEO title was her total embracing of the role’s duties and abilities. She quickly shifted how we planned projects, how we prioritized products and quarterly cycles, how we determined who would work on what, how we measured progress and engagement, and Moz’s organizational structure. She shifted who reported to her (and how). She formalized many informal processes and moved fast to make Moz emulate some of the larger companies in Foundry Group’s portfolio like ReturnPath and Rally (after building relationships with those CEOs and teams). And, she changed a lot of how Moz’s power structure worked – from a centralized source when I was CEO (basically, a 5-6 person executive team that made/approved a majority of the company’s high-level decisions) to a much more distributed, cascading set of responsibilities by product and department.

I was skeptical about a good portion of these changes. And, while I worked to keep my disagreement just between us, I’m sure at least some signs of my displeasure and frustration spilled over to the team. I dislike formalized processes, rigidity, and anything that feels overly corporate or hierarchical.

_{Taken from Flat Will Kill You, Eventually: Why Every Company Needs Structure by Mark Nichols, Nov. 18, 2015}

I think, to be frank, I was also deeply selfish. I wanted Moz to be the kind of place I wanted to work, not the kind of place most likely to succeed with the team we had or were hiring, not the kind that fit best with what Sarah wanted, but my own little creation where things were weird and different and Rand-like.

I sometimes sit in meetings that feel, to me, insanely frustrating and pointless, corporate and inauthentic, and think “This isn’t what I wanted… Why did I create this?… Me of 5 years ago would hate the me of today.” That self-centered attitude is awful, but sometimes, I can barely hold those thoughts back, and have to leave a room to avoid breaking down. It feels like there’s a bull in my head, filled with self-loathing, rushing into the all-too-vulnerable walls I’ve erected to keep it chained in.

_{Via Chris Guyot on Dribbble}

It takes concerted effort to remind myself that just because I’m unhappy about a process or don’t see the value in it doesn’t mean that’s true for others. And I cannot argue with the results. Moz’s teams work together better now, at nearly 200 employees, than at any time since we were a company of <50 people. Morale feels to me as though it’s stronger than ever. Cross-team initiaves and the pace of software releases are at an all-time high. Errors, downtime, and broken systems still plague us badly, but recovery times are way better than they’ve ever been, and processes for identifying and fixing these is dialed in.

Anyone who knows me knows I’m a harsh critic of Moz, as I am of myself. The things I hate most in myself are often reflected to me in Moz’s own stumbles over the years. I perceive those flaws as magnified, and conversely see our good qualities as never good enough. Yet, even I can admit that we are a better company today that at any time in my last 2 years of CEO-ship.

The greatest gift of this period, though, has been exposure to the experience of being an employee, and the empathy that brings with it. I’ve:

Felt the fear of worrying about getting fired, stressing about our finances (irresponsibly, I have barely one year’s salary in savings), and wondering if I could ever find another job that would want me knowing what an awkward liability I might be.
Had conversations with co-workers as a co-worker, not a CEO. Those have been incredible – enlightening, sometimes reinforcing things I believed but couldn’t prove and other times wholly negating my assumptions.
Experienced the deep frustration of disagreeing about big, important decisions, having no power to change them, and settling into the role of supporting them despite my reservations.
Spent hours doing work I hate (which is nothing new – as CEO I did plenty of I hated) and whose purpose I can’t understand (that has been entirely new).
Worked with people I thought were wrong fits for their teams and the company, and been told to suck it up because they weren’t going anywhere.

Having never worked anywhere else in my adult life (apart from a couple retail jobs in college), these new professional experiences have, I think, made me a better future CEO, and a better person all-around. It’s hard to have real empathy for something you haven’t personally gone through and until the last 22 months, I’d never worked directly for someone in a formal setting like Moz with a real risk of losing my job if I didn’t do what was required of me.

Let me be clear – Moz is a WAY, WAY less corporate, inauthentic, frustrating place to work than anywhere else I’ve ever heard about among tech companies our size. My friends from other mid-late stage startups laugh at my complaints, as well they should, and most Mozzers just tell me how lucky we all have it compared to what’s out there. As a consultant for the first 8 years of my career, I agree that there’s nothing like the bureaucracy, politics, or throwaway work I saw at larger companies inside Moz… I’m just extremely, overly sensitive to even a hint of going in that direction, and when I feel us tilting that way, I go a little crazy.

But in my saner moments, I know that my sensitivity is, in part, a reaction to the guilt and shame I feel from the past, along with a pride I take in wanting Moz to be somewhere different, somewhere amazing, and somewhere that reflects my peculiar values. My best self – the version that can be reflective and patient – knows that Sarah is building Moz to be what she wants, and that’s what good CEOs are supposed to do. My job is to support her, to see her vision through, and to get out of the way when I can’t be a positive force in that trajectory. I think anyone inside or outside the company can easily see how much better off we are today than we were two years ago – for that, I’m immensely proud of and thankful for Sarah’s great work.

_{Rand and Si at a tiny farmer’s market in Flemington, NJ, August 2015}

The picture above is of me and my grandfather, Seymour (Si) Fishkin. In the first 4 years of the old SEOmoz blog, he was a major contributor to the company – helping me learn how to read patent applications, how to understand the math of Google’s PageRank algorithm, how to explain the principles of information retrieval systems, and how to be a good person. I remember one night, while I was staying over at my grandparents’ house in New Jersey, he read a blog post I’d written about a debate in the SEO world.

He was slow to give me feedback, but when he did, it was critical. My grandfather felt that instead of explaining my argument, I was writing as though I had some innate authority and that readers were to believe my position simply because I was the one expressing it. He explained that with a few tweaks and a bit more work to justify the reasons for my perspective, the post could go from haughty and overbearing to humble and helpful. I changed that post, and I’ve been trying to keep his advice in mind ever since – to show people my work and my reasons rather than just tell them to believe me. I think that approach has been a big part of Moz’s success over the years.

It’s also how I’m trying to think of this opportunity – a chance to be a more humble contributor to Moz, to learn from my mistakes and hopefully, earn back the trust and respect of the team around me and of the customers I disappointed. Someday, (hopefully many years from now after Moz’s stock has become shockingly valuable) I want to start another company. When I do, I think I’ll be able to apply the lessons learned and empathy gained from this experience to that one. So, while I’m deeply regretful of the past and resentful of my actions, I’m also thankful for this chance to learn and grow.

Ultimately, I’m not regretful about no longer being CEO; I’m upset and sad about why the transition happened, and about how poorly I prepared myself for the change. But today, I have a great job, a great CEO, and a chance to learn. Like I said, it’s complicated.

Jarrett Byrom

Wow Rand. Awesome and open. You already know my position on how much you have accomplished and how you are judging yourself against the most accomplished people in the world. The top .01 percent that have started companies from scratch to grow this large. Always remember the people like me whom have suceed ed in this industry largely due to your influence. As amazing as the sucess of Moz, your success goes beyond its doors to helping shape an entire industry. Not many in that .01 percent can claim to have done that as well.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Thanks Jarrett I think the stats are slightly better than 0.01 for tech startups getting to Moz’s relative stage, but I totally take your point and it’s very kind. I think we tend to judge ourselves against our beliefs about potential rather than relative to the broad statistics of our field. I feel like Moz has yet to reach its potential, and I really want to help with that before I consider doing something else.
  - Jarrett Byrom
    
    The only thing I would caution you against is referring to your depression as weakness. Depression and it’s consequences have affected me greatly this past year. Destroyed me in many ways, actually but you wouldn’t call having Cancer a weakness. Remember that depression causes u to lie to yourself and lose hope and by referring to its affects as a personal weakness, you are playing right into its hands. You’ve already been strong enough to admit it publicly and seek help. There is nothing weak about you.
    - http://www.ajpape.com ajpape
      
      Having gone through both cancer (this past year) and depression (2010, 2011), I whole-heartedly endorse your comment, Jarret. Hope you’re doing well as we move into 2016.
Grant Lingel

Fantastic post, Rand. Thank you for letting us in. It isn’t easy opening up and sharing such a personal story and I applaud you for being so brave. I look forward to seeing what happens in the future – not only with Moz – but with you and future endeavors.
https://www.kayakonlinemarketing.com/online-marketing-approach Randy Milanovic

Much too hard on yourself. Each and every one of us face adversity in both our lives and work. It comes with the job of being an entrepreneur. Be good to yourself Rand.
http://techwyse.com Steve Toth

We appreciate your openness, especially as it relates to dealing with depression. I have many regrets, many years I cannot take back due to depression, but I’m stronger now than I was and I bet you probably are, too. Keep learning (that’s what SEO is all about) and you will feel fulfilled, CEO or otherwise. Thanks Rand.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/102158485771469899740/posts Daniel Bailey

These, to me, are the best posts on Moz. Period.
Rare to find such openness anywhere.
Thanks Rand.
http://www.iacquire.com/ Joe Griffin

Rand, you are a trailblazer. Always have been. Always will be. Every decision you have made was the right choice at that point in time. You have demonstrated good decision making more often than not and your hard work ethic and sharp wit make you a great leader both as a manager, and as an individual contributor. The best times are still ahead. Keeping being yourself and this journey will be one for the record books. We’re all cheering for you. I know I am. See you around old friend and keep making me say wow. – Joe.
Zoran Knezevic

Rand what a story! I am impressed with your honesty. I have one interesting story. My wife and me run Fragrantica and few years ago i visited some ebay event and there was Marc Andreessen as a visitor but I had no clue who is he. Later I found out his famous venture capital fund and other amazing things from biography. He knew some things about us and our project. I did not even try to pitch him. He was genuinly interested and I had feeling that he is someome special. I opened all my cards and truthfuly and honestly answered his questions that were quiet deep like x-ray of our business. I am proud with our product and we have traction, we do not need venture capital we might use money to grow faser but Marc said you need nothing and nobody just do with your wife what you want to do everything else will blew you apart.

Many months later i realised that I had an interview with Marc Andreessen. He is special guy and I see why he is so sucessful. He genuinly care about businesses and he is willing to pass on dealif he sees that founders are not able to handle stress that VC is bringing in.

Every time when I am tempted to think about getting in somebody ‘professional’ to help Marc Andreessen is in front of my eyes telling me do it you need nobody.

Rand NeXt time what ever you do I will buy it just trusting you.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Amazing story. I’ve heard a lot of good things from folks about Marc – glad to hear your experience was positive too.
http://www.conversioner.com/ Talia Wolf

Thank you for sharing this Rand.
What I love about this post (other than it addressing some of my main fears and concerns) is the opportunity you’ve set up here to grow and change. As you say, “these new professional experiences have, I think, made me a better future CEO, and a better person all-around.” This isn’t a post about what could have been or just regrets, it’s a post about what can and will be in the future thanks to these lessons and your ability to analyze yourself for better and worst.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  That’s a great way to think about it Talia, and something I need to concentrate on more.
MartinSherv

Great read. Honest, open, and helpful. Look forward to our interview in the NY.
http://www.perfectlyplausible.com/ Iain Bartholomew

It must be interesting to compare and contrast your concerns and disappointment with decisions Sarah has made to how she felt about your way of running things. My instinct says it must be good to be challenged in these ways, albeit probably difficult to find a genuinely objective perspective given your emotional involvement.

Best of luck.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Yeah, absolutely agree. Sometimes, it’s hard for me to know what’s objective vs. subjective and where to draw the line on what to share. I want to add as much value as I can without being a pain in the ass who’s always complaining or perceived as second-guessing. I can only imagine how hard and frustrating it must be for her having to deal with having the old CEO hanging around.
http://www.blindfiveyearold.com AJ Kohn

I love not only the honesty, but the way in which you write about these types of issues. This piece is even more interesting because it gives a fairly transparent view into the tug-of-war going on in your head. People generally seek absolutes and find ambiguity difficult (which is ironic in this industry) but the latter is far more likely and real.

Being an acquaintance, I certainly noted that you seem happier now that you’re not CEO. I, frankly, don’t care what caused what in the scheme of things. I’m simply glad you’re happy. And I think there are a bunch of others who feel the same way, in part because we don’t define you as the sum of your work contributions but as the sum of your personal interactions.

It pains me a bit to see you dwell on those past actions. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think you should just forget about those things. The ability to understand your own mistakes and learn from them is powerful. But holding on to the emotions from those actions … well, I just don’t think that’s healthy. #notadoctor

I read quite a bit of Jonathan Carroll. One book in particular, The Ghost In Love, delves into the idea that we’re truly different people at different ages. That our experiences change us so the person we were at 16 is not the same person we are at 40. So, why obsess over the actions of someone … who isn’t you?

Of course that’s easier said than done and I still obsess about things I should have said, the email I should have returned or how I could have handled something better. But I’ve gotten A LOT better at understanding the behavior and trying to do better in the future instead of beating myself up about it. Tritely, wake up and try to be a better version of yourself each day.

But this isn’t about me, it’s about you. So I have a story. We were walking back together in a small group from a meal a month or so ago in Dallas. An aggressive pan-handler approached us and we did the ‘sorry man, can’t help you’ shuffle. The thing is Sha Menz was trailing the group. And there was one person who thought enough to turn around and make sure she fended off this pan-handler. Not me. Nope. That was you.

I felt pretty awful about that and obsessed about it for a while. If I’m honest, it still bothers me a little. But I’ve reconciled it and know that I’d be more aware – better – put in that situation next time. The point is, you’re going to screw up and make shitty decisions and hurt people from time to time but I urge you to look instead at the whole picture – the entire balance of who you are instead.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  That’s amazing it stuck out in your mind – I hadn’t even recalled that until you mentioned it. To be fair, I’m pretty sure Sha can take great care of herself, but I always feel bad when folks like that are actively harassing people rather than just asking (although, who knows how I’d act if the situations are reversed and I was the one needing a handout).
  
  In any case, thanks a million for the very kind comment. Geraldine and I talked about you this morning and how much we really admire you as a person (she hadn’t met you before Dallas I think, and really enjoyed your company). Hope we get to see you more.
  - http://www.blindfiveyearold.com AJ Kohn
    
    Well I’m flattered and thank you for the very kind words. It’s a resolution to see you and Geraldine a bit more in 2016.
https://www.searchcontrol.co.uk/ Joshua Daniels

Rand, I love how completely open and transparent you are. I’m in awe of what you have achieved on a personal and corporate level. I guess the more you achieve, the more your expectations raise as a result which is a horrible, vicious circle and a tough one to control. You have inspired hundreds of thousands of people within your community and I’d just like to personally congratulate you on your achievements and I wish you all the best for 2016 and beyond. To your success, Rand.

P.S, try to be a little less harsh on yourself. You’re awesome.
http://www.smamarketing.net/ Ryan Shelley

Thanks Rand for sharing,

I have struggled with depression and anxiety for most my life. I too found my self in a position for a organization I loved. But things changes and my condition grew worse. Trying desperately to hold on the the “past” I nearly lost it all.

You have inspired me so much through the years. The fact I was able to take my SEO and marketing hobby and now turn it into an agency I love to run, and have the time I need to give to my wife and kids, would have never been possible without Moz and your contribution. Failing and slip ups are a part of our journey, but they are not who we are. Sure you made some bad move & you also created a wonder place for people to explore their potential.

Thank you for having the boldness to make the right move, refocus on the most important and look towards what’s next.

“Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future”. – John F. Kennedy

Enjoy your holiday, and I want to personally thank you for impacting my life.
Alfonso Martinez

Rand,

That was the most honest assessment of Self.
Your honesty allows all in and out of the industry to understand your success, failures, and openess to admit fault. These qualities only reflects your willingness to grow as a human being.

Most CEO never want to admit fault because their ego and pride clouds their judgment. Although it appears in your write up you were heading down that slippery slope, you and your team, particularly Sarah stopped you from sliding completely into the danger zone.

Your contribution is indelible. Also Sarah et.al also are commended for being honest with you.

Always remember, you want people who are directly honest because it will make you grow even further.

Much Respect,
Alfonso
http://www.bluecotton.com Brad Wayland

Rand, thanks for the post. From my point of view I’m not sure all those voices in your head complaining about the direction etc are wrong. I’ve worked with and known several founders of small companies but I’ve also been exposed through business to some larger business founders. The founder almost always gets the crazy tag by some. I remember one specific situation where we met with a founder and then with the CEO type the market was supposed to like more. In front of the founder people loved him but when he wasn’t in the room the new CEO type made him out to be crazy. That company pushed the founder aside and went with the refined CEO that knew about process etc. After two years they would have said things were going great. The reality is that in their business model (which the founder created) the new way was wrong. After a few years the CEO was ousted and the founder came back in to put things back together. Strangely enough the mad scientist was the right person. The company tried to go back to its roots and had better results.

I find it a bit unfair for you to praise how fast things get done with 200 when you never led from that position. To me the founder cares the most so they always have this keen view of details that don’t matter to anyone else. There is a founder I admire that I met with about 18 months ago. He was showing off a new large office space for hundreds of employees and as we walked around he became frustrated about a couple of pieces of carpet that were lifting up from under trim on the side of the hall and a tv that wasn’t hung to his satisfaction in one of the eating areas. Some people view this as crazy. I don’t. The small details that the founder sees matter. They get labeled as crazy, emotional, etc.

I’ve never been in Moz so I honestly have no idea but I can tell you from my point of view I would have chosen you as CEO. I’ve been part of this community for years and I will tell you that if your face ever disappears from there it will kill the brand. You are specifically the reason I signed up and remain a member. I can get the tools from your competitors. Your insight is the UVP for me.

As always I appreciate your transparency. I’m not transparent and honestly have no desire to be. I do enjoy reading from people who are.

Brad
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Brad – thanks for the comment and the vote of confidence. I want to be clear that it was my decision to step aside; I wasn’t forced out of my role. I felt (and still feel) that the best thing for the company long term is to have Sarah at the helm. This post isn’t about trying to say “I wish I was still CEO because I’d do X, Y, and Z differently.” A lot of the post’s point is actually saying “I’d probably do those things differently and they wouldn’t work as well.”
  
  Totally understand your anecdote about the professional CEO vs. the founder CEO, but remember that Sarah, although her title doesn’t include “founder,” joined Moz only about a year into us creating a software company. She’s very nearly a co-founder of the business, certainly since our 2007 transition from consulting to software as a focus. Like me, she cares deeply about the company, our values, and getting this right. We’ve both staked our professional careers on Moz, and have been through highs and lows together the last 8 years.
  
  As for transparency – I think it’s great to know who you are and what you do/won’t want to be. Self-knowledge and self-acceptance are huge parts of finding your personal happiness/path in my experience.
  - http://www.bluecotton.com Brad Wayland
    
    I think the only thing I would really take issue with is not your decision to step aside or Sarah’s ability to lead. I understand where you are coming from there. I might take more of an issue with the “I’d probably do those things differently and they wouldn’t work as well” statement. I get it. I see why you would say that. You might be wrong but I get it. I’ve been amazed at the things people will follow. Sometimes the better pick on paper isn’t the better pick. I’ve talked with my partners before about how hard it is to be in an organization for a long time because there is no way to erase all the history you have with people. There are positive and negatives to that. There is no way for you to “start fresh” at Moz. There are people who will always remember your good and your bad no matter what role you try to play. Not much any of us can do about that but that is probably where the attractiveness of doing something different someday comes from. Always enjoy your insight and appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comment.
Chris Hubbard

Having been through many years as an entrepreneur (read small business owner), I find you learn not from my successes, but from my mistakes. It’s natural to want to emphasize your victories and bury the failures which will just lead to more mistakes & failures. Keep the memory of your mistakes alive so you don’t repeat them over and over again. However it is important to not let previous failures block your inquizative innovative nature.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Agreed. Although, I do have this nagging feeling that I’d like to stop learning so much from so many mistakes and just have a few years of less learning and more getting it right
http://dattrax.podomatic.com/ dattrax

Thank you for sharing these personal thoughts. I mean I liked you before, but even more and more as you wear your heart on your sleeve. Being vulnerable to be hurt, criticized and still not be seen in the proper context.

If other companies’ owners/founders were this passionate,and felt this much connection to their companies and their people. If they felt this much personal responsibility attached to actions & consequences they could or could not control. Imagine what we could all accomplish at each company?
Simone Brunozzi

What an amazing post. Thanks for sharing this, Rand. Being so transparent about good and bad things it’s a rare gem.
Sean

Most startup / early stage CEO’s are not the right person to play bigger company CEO when more structure and process is a must. It’s not something you’ll ever learn to love ad if you want to be true to yourself and your talents, something you should strive to want to learn to love. You’ll evolve somewhat as you get older, but the most rewarding life for a guy with your skillset is to play to your passion and go the serial entrepreneur route. I’ve always admired what you’ve done with this company.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Thanks Sean. I certainly do want to go back to early-stage, smaller-company life at some point, but every day I stay at Moz, I learn more about how larger organizations function, and even if I don’t love every part of it, I thirst for that knowledge.
Sarah M

If your CEO is refusing to fire people who are genuinely problematic for you to work with, including senior execs, designers or programmers, then she is a problem. You’re still the founder and chairman. What you say matters. Sure you should mostly keep your nose out of the corporate management stuff, but no one gets to be disrespectful to you, or block your work, or pick fights, undermine you, be passive aggressive, ignore your opinions, or otherwise act like an ass.

Power games at any level are much more destructive than any other cultural issue. And if you are reporting people acting badly toward others and she is unresponsive, that’s bad news too. You trusted her with leadership, and managing people is a key facet. If she’s unwilling to fire bad apples, the company will suffer death by a thousand paper cuts.
http://www.startupmanagement.org/ William Mougayar

When I read the first paragraph, all I thought was – wow that’s a lot of achievements for 22 months. You may have stepped down as Moz CEO, but you certainly stepped up on everything else. That matters a lot.
And I think you’re just getting started. What may have appeared like a step back is actually a re-load, so you can propel yourself further out.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Thanks William – I’ve been doing my best to use the extra time I have as an IC to do what I can to help Moz in the areas I’m best at – content, product, marketing, evangelism, recruiting, etc. I certainly have actively worked to make sure I’m not slacking off just because of a title change.
  - http://www.startupmanagement.org/ William Mougayar
    
    I’m waiting for Rand’s third act I think it will be a good one.
http://doist.io/ Amir Salihefendic

Very insightful post, thanks for sharing. Looking from the outside, I think you were and still are way too harsh on yourself.
Thad Guidry

It is possible that Sarah has a built in ability that you might have less of or struggle with. Women are natural organizers. Men tend to have some limits on organizing because of our past specialized focuses on hunting, although we can be just as creative, i.e. we have made a few contributions to cave paintings at times.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  There’s only a tiny amount of innate differences between male and female brains, and often, it’s the case that an individual woman or man will show more deviation from an avg of their gender than from a member of the opposite gender (source: http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/08/male-female-brains-are-just-a-little-different.html ). Generally speaking, I think it’s very unwise and mostly unscientific to extrapolate gender as being responsible for types of cognitive performance differences in people.
http://sulemanali.com untenable

Wow, this is real shit. For that – i just wanted to say, thank you for having the courage to share!
jgdeutsch

Rand, this part of the article is wrong:

“The things I hate most in myself…”

Stop doing that. That is wrong. Don’t hate anything about yourself. It’s self-centered and destructive to you and your relationships.

I know. Because I’ve done it before.

When you hate something about yourself, it means that you will constantly question the judgment of those who love you. That will push them away, create distance, and ultimately hurt people.

One of the main themes my therapist and I uncovered when I was working through the emotional issues that led to my business’s collapse (http://inbound.org/post/view/confessions-of-a-google-spammer) was self-loathing. You might think it’s tough love on yourself, but it’s not. It’s not constructive. In the long run, it will destroy everything you build.

Check out the Satir Method. It’s a type of therapy that focuses on the thoughts and feelings that lead to your decision-making. It turned my life around (very slowly, I still have a long way to go.) If you just try to fight a behavior (like making decisions emotionally, or an addiction, or a self-destructive tendency, like abandoning projects when you feel overwhelmed), you will win a few battles here and there but you will lose the war in the end.

You need to understand where the pain comes for. Because all of those behaviors are just symptoms. They’re coping mechanisms you learned from your family as you grew up. Until you understand the thoughts and feelings that cause your behavior, you will always struggle. Once you understand, it’s like a kill switch. You’ll feel the stress and anxiety come on and say, “Oh yeah, I feel that because my belief system is THIS,” and suddenly you’ll start to realize that the behavior is unnecessary. What you really need to do is address the source of the pain–not the symptom itself.

I wish you the best man. Your writing and work are an inspiration. And I hope you find a way to not listen to the voice that says, “Jeff thinks I’m an inspiration. He must be an idiot.”

Cheers Rand.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Thanks Jeff – I hear you, and I want to reassure you that I’ve got a good amount of self-awareness about my feelings and how they impact my decisions, emotions, and actions. I think my problem may be that knowing they’re symptoms doesn’t make them feel any less real. I know that I believe myself to be an underachiever partly because of my upbringing and my parents’ expectations, but I also kinda think they were right – I’m capable of more and I’m not performing to the level I should hold myself to. I feel anger and frustration and shame and regret about things I’ve done in the past and things about myself and those push me to improve.
  
  I’ve done some therapy, and some professional coaching, and I’m solidly in touch with my weird belief systems and the “sources of my pain,” it just doesn’t make them less real to me. At least not yet.
  - jgdeutsch
    
    Man… reading my comment just now made me wince.. it sounded so harsh now re-reading it. I hope it didn’t come across that way when you read it
    
    Your article really moved me man just.. so much you said spoke to me so much. I feel exactly the same way. Underachiever. Disappointment. All that stuff.
    
    What gives me a bit of relief is, when I get frustrated or angry or sad about my failure to perform how I should.. I say to myself, “This is just the pain that’s meant to teach me something.”
    
    If you want, you can look at that pain like, “Oh yeah, that makes sense. I f**ked that up. OK, noted.” It’s just when I sit there savoring the pain like a dog with a bone that it starts to get destructive. That was always the thing that frustrated me about existential writers, especially Dostoevsky, Sartre, and Camus. If you can check yourself before you get to that existential point, it can really really help.
http://www.moxiedot.com Kelsey Jones

Hey Rand, it takes a lot of courage to be authentic about major life choices, or to even make those choices at all. I often see colleagues and friends, old and young, who are burned out and needing to make a change, but fail to do so. To make a choice at all to take action is often more than most are able to do. I applaud that you respected yourself, your company, and your family enough to do what you needed to do. I enjoy seeing you around the interwebs and at conferences and I’m sure I speak for many of us when I say I look forward to continue to learn from you and the folks at Moz!
Russ Carroll

It’s almost impossible to really understand the weight carried by a responsible CEO until you’ve experienced it, especially in a crisis. I swore that I would limit my exposure and risk to Miva, but I got 100% sucked in, not because it was doing poorly, but because it kept getting better. It can feel crushing and overwhelming at certain times, and I have always had to get to the point where I acknowledge that 1) The results are out of my hands, and 2) I’ve lost everything before and recovered, and 3) My dog would probably rather live homeless anyway. In fact, I met my wife when I was at my lowest, undoubtedly the greatest blessing if losing everything. Having a supportive wife and family and, in my case, a relationship with God, has made things bearable.

Lastly, there were times between ’08 and ’10 that I would have thrown in the towel but for the fact that I had originally brought in a few friends that had helped me succeed in the past and gave them equity as part of the team that turned Miva around. Several times, I literally said to myself “I can’t give up on ‘so-and-so’, I’d rather just take the pain.” That got me through a couple really rough periods that I might actually have given up if it were just me that would fail.

Thank you for giving us a window into your struggle. You’re a brilliant young man with a very bright future. you can be very thankful that you have learned some of what you’ve shared at your age. Many never learn some of these painful truths, and it will serve you well into the next chapter in your life.
http://www.ajpape.com ajpape

Rand – So meaningful and helpful for me to read this.

I just finished radiation treatment for prostate cancer, and on my 4th radiation session out of 5, I listened to your podcast with Jerry Colonna. This post just builds on the positive impression I had of you as a fellow-veteran of depression.

Wishing you fulfillment and success for next year and beyond.
ronellsmith

Thanks for being courageous enough to share such stories. I could tell this post was brewing inside your head the night I was fortunate enough to have an amazing dinner prepared by you and Geraldine. We make a big deal out of transparency, but I think it’s actually humility that matters most to team members and outsiders. We all need to know and feel as though the people we work with and for have the same foibles as us and are working diligently to create their best work despite them. For all the things you give yourself grief for, this gift is what others see and appreciate in you.
Scott Willoughby

Rand, I literally breathed a sigh of relief for you while reading this.

I was very impressed when you stepped down as CEO. To be honest, I never thought it would happen, but had seen it as something that I thought would benefit both you and Moz for some time. I think one of your biggest management challenges was that you’d never been managed…never learned what good (and bad) management looked or felt like as an employee. Your amazing and peculiar career path never gave you that experience.

I’ve always admired and respected your talent, passion, and drive. I fully believe this experience will make you a much happier, more effective executive when your next CEO opportunity comes along. Enjoy your view from the trenches for now, it’ll help the look from 30,000 feet make a lot more sense.
John Cole

Hey Rand. This piece was great! I read it to the end and was captivated by the level of introspective transparency present in your writing. Authenticity is a value I hold dear, and I believe we need more of it in the world at large. Thank you for taking the risks to share so intimately with the greater public. You set a great example for all the rest of us in regards to your openness and honesty. My warm regards brother.
campbellmacdonald

Great post. I loved how deep you went and the nuance of how complicated it is.

One thing that stuck out for me, which feels totally minor and clearly in the “none of my business” category” was your personal savings and having less than a year’s salary.

I’m curious: is that accurate? Does that stress you? You’re about 10 years younger than I am, but one of the entrepreneurial dilemmas I wrestle with is the “lack of savings”, especially during my allegedly high-productivity years. You presumably have a bunch of equity tied up in Moz, but I assume it’s super illiquid and still high risk.

Do you ever think about socking more under your mattress or are you more of a “live today, figure out tomorrow when it comes” kind of guy? It’s something I don’t see talked about much in startupland.
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  I’m not great at saving money, certainly, but part of it is also that Geraldine has been investing in her blog and in a book, which haven’t paid off yet (and thus we share my income), and that we have high expenses living in Seattle (our rent is ~$3,600/month) and supporting some family (on both sides). It definitely stresses me and your statements about all of our wealth being tied up in Moz’s illiquid equity are correct. That said, I’m far more passionate on working to make more than on trying to save another $500 or $1,000 each month. We could save $2k/month for 10 years and probably still wouldn’t be able to afford whatever Seattle’s housing prices will be in 2026
  - campbellmacdonald
    
    Cool. I’m of a similar mindset, and believe the math is even worse for the Vancouver real estate market :0
http://kemarlawrence.postach.io/ Kemar

Hey @Ra@randfish:disqus thanks for being so forthright with all of the nuances you deal with from a personal and professional perspective regarding your tenor as CEO. It’s refreshing to see someone that is so influential show so much vulnerability. At a point you’ll be fully healed once you accept that stepping down was actually part of your exponential growth and professional evolution. Cheers
Lauren

I’d work at a Rand company – I have the same hangups about corporate “culture” and structure, and wouldn’t touch working in someone else’s office with a ten foot pole. But a Rand company? I’d get behind that. I think the world needs Rand-as-business-thought-leader, because the flaws that drive you batty are flaws that should be examined, considered, and if at all possible, stamped out. I don’t want to live in a world where “this is how business is done” is the answer to any question. Granted, I’m self-employed, precisely because I don’t do things I don’t agree with and can’t put up with tasks I find senseless. It’s not being selfish Rand. I think of it as being the change I want to see in the world. Though I guess Gandhi was also not without flaws.
https://circusstreet.com Matt Leach

Depression is a hell of a thing isn’t it?

But if it’s a weakness, it needs to be thought of in terms of levels of neurotransmitters, not in terms of personal failing.

Anything that, for example, can bring someone to the sudden realization that they have literally not experienced happiness in a couple of years without ever once noticing, is not something whose passage through a life can be discounted.

As other people have suggested, if at the lowest point in your life you achieve things that most people would not dare dream about, then it’s somewhat ridiculous to talk of failure.

If it’s worth anything, you have always stood out to me in this industry as being a guy who not just seriously knows his shit but, just as importantly, obviously puts a lot of thought into how to best communicate that knowledge to others.
Reinula Maria

Thank you for your honesty and willingness to share your thoughts with us and that you are so open for feedback. Sometimes when I read the comments, I think recieving feedback is not always easy, even if people what to support you.

Following your blog for some years, today I want to come back to you with one out of many ideas that helped me in the past. I had suffered from depression and what we call it here in my country: “burn-out” myself some years ago. Thankfully I am fine now and back from that journey with unpayable learnings (even if I haven´t aksed to get them…).

I learned, that all feelings and thoughts I had, were absolutely real, as you said. But they are not necessarily “the truth”. Especially feelings of being guilty, making mistakes, reacting the wrong way etc. Those feelings are driven by our “depressive way of thinking”, the dark angel walking behind us and telling us that we are guilty, bad….

I made a change and told my inner voice to shut up! And I started to differentiate: this is what I feel, and these are the possible different “truths”. Sounds perhaps a bit silly and simple, but it made a important change.

To check my truths and believes, I started asking people I thought I´ve treated wrong or if my head told me I´ve made an unforgivable mistake about their opinion and feedback. In many cases, my inner voice was wrong. The more extreme my feelings have been, black and white without any balanced grey in it, the more likely I was definitely wrong.

Example from your posts: when you feel guilty for passing the role of being CEO to Sarah, that does not mean that you are in a kind of guilt. May be she is very happy to have the chance to prove her expertise and move the company the way she thinks it´s best? May be it is helpful to have someone in the management team like you, who is not overall enthusiastic about her new ideas, so that she has to rethink and proof her ideas again and adjust them?

May be that “first day in the company”-women (you mentioned in a post some years ago) was not shocked by her boss announcing the illness of his wife but thought: “wow, what a loving husband. He is so in love with his wife, that he wants to have enough time to support her and help her during a hard time. I wish to find a love like that.”

So my lesson was: we don´t know by nature how things are and our (depressive) brain tends to tell us sh…, so better go out and ask people and believe in their answers, or even assume that things may be different. You remember “This is water”: Its ‘not likely, but it´s also not impossible. David Foster Wallace was all too well knowing what he was talking about. Awareness as a concept of choosing what we think and how we experience the world as best medicine against depression and way out.

Not being CEO today perhaps does not mean never being CEO again. I stepped down 10 steps in my career and get back into my old management level after 12 months and back to the same power and performance some months later. May be it takes some time because there are so many experiences to be made and lessons to be learned and shared.

I wish all the best for you and your family and team in 2016!

P.S. my apologize for my poor English, it’s not my mother tongue. So hopefully my main message
reached you.

P.P.S: THC is a reimbursed prescription drug in my country for patients suffering from severe,
therapy resistant pain 😉
Holly Liu

Would you feel different if Moz was wildly successful when you stepped down as CEO?
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Yes, almost certainly, because it would mean that Moz was in a good place financially and growth wise, and we had the metrics to support a strong demand for Moz’s shares. That would have made me feel like I had done a good job of growth after our 2012 round and would also be much more comfortable from a personal financial perspective too.
  - Holly Liu
    
    It’s interesting there was an HBR article about how we usually take credit for success and during failure it was exogenous circumstances. You are doing what the HBR article recommends which is to take credit in failure as well. Thank you for replying and sharing – not an easy thing to do. But, I am reminded of this:
    
    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” – Theadore Roosevelt
    
    Thank you for having the courage to step out in the ring and be an inspiration to all.
Shalu Singh

When I come across this post I felt that it must about your accomplishments and the things you did in your so far life. You always been the inspiration for me, in fact, I am a just fan of yours. But the only thing that bothers me is that you feel as a critic and there are some things you really hate about yourself. Everyone have some bad and good things in his/her life but it doesn’t mean we start hating that.
I feel glad that you chosen to do the things you really like (new professional experiences, new project). I never saw you but I can realize that you are the best CEO, Worker, Person, Husband I ever saw and I know well that whatever the things you are going to do will really be helpful for all of us. Passing the role of being CEO to Sarah is really a hard decision for anyone but did that. I know Sarah will do her great job. I appreciate your simple thinking and transparent behavior. I feel glad for you Rand that you are happy with that. But I have a request to you instead of thinking what you did wrong in your past, focus on your achievements, the things you really did for Moz.
Tante Girang

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Becky Kane

Hi Rand, I’ve never commented on one of your posts before, but I found my way back to your blog today and just wanted to say how much I appreciate your perspective. It’s been a little under a year since I began doing content marketing (with no prior experience) and your blog posts and presentations helped immensely along the way in helping me figure everything out. It would be easy for you to pretend that you have everything figured out in work and life (most people do). I just wanted to thank you for your candor and the reminder that even successful people (of which you are undoubtedly one) struggle with doubt. Good luck as you find a new purpose in your company! And please tell your grandpops thanks for the reminder to stay humble and helpful 😊
- http://moz.com/rand Rand Fishkin
  
  Thanks Becky Very kind of you to share that. Wish you all the best!
  - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ozairakhtar Ozair Akhtar
    
    Hi Rand, sorry for messaging here in the reply section. I would just like to put up a small request for you. I need your help I have found my Geraldine (she’s a content writer) and I (digital marketer). I need your Prayers so that we both can get married to each other as soon as possible. We both love each other and are not able to describe it to each other.
    
    I am 100% sure that our marriage will bring good for each of us and also for the digital world. Do advice me if you can. Also, her birthday is quite near and it’s on 12 of Feb 2016. I wish if you can wish her (Named: Sara Marium) a Happy Birthday with my name (Ozair Akhtar) on your upcoming White Board Friday. Then she will definitely going to love it.
    
    Please don’t refuse it
http://willedridge.com Will Edridge

So this is the first time I’ve ever read Moz.com’s blog…

I have to say that although I’ve never followed moz or your story Rand this is a deeply moving piece.

I wish you all the best and I’ll be sticking around – I need to get up to date on this SEO thing
http://mrsellar.com mrsellaronline

Very Informative post.Thanks for sharing .
Nazar Eye

Thanks Rand For Sharing.
http://mrsellar.com mrsellaronline

Great post. I loved how deep you went and the nuance of how complicated it is.

http://mrsellar.com
White Ninja

Hey Rand, I just wanted to tell you that attend inner engineering program. Search for it in google. It is available online. Thanks
OMDream

I’m surprised! I never thought somebody as important as you would ever write something like this. It is so honest and human. I liked it and I think you’ve even added some more points to our perception of you. Do you know something I don’t forgive you about? I travelled to see you in Madrid several years ago, and you did not arrive ! The meeting was cancelled and they told us you missed a plain somewhere in Barcelona I think. I’ve never wanted to listen to someone with so much eagerness. But never mind, we all forgave you. As somebody said right here, this is only a re-load, stand up again and fight for your parents !