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Bugfixes. Also fixes false runtime bug. Adds in egg TF clarification. #337

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@Cameron653
Cameron653 commented Jun 9, 2016 edited

This is a bug fix.

Proposed changes in this Pull Request:

  • Allows Prometheans to use spacesuits
  • Fixes a runtime bug
  • Allows Prometheans to shapeshift into all species.
  • Clarifies egg transformation better, since you don't have to transform people in a womb anymore.
  • Major nerf to Promethean health regen. They now heal .2 per tick instead of the prior 5.)
  • Makes fat text use gender specific pronouns.

Notes:
Allows Prometheans to use spacesuits, able to be wearable via the suit cycler. Default to skrell.
From there, they can change body shape and it'll still fit them and change to work for their sprite
(If they're a skrell bodyform then change into a unathi while they have the spacesuit on, their spacesuit sprite will turn into a unathi spacesuit sprite, etc etc.)

Edit: Also fixes runtime bug.
Fixes #289

@Cameron653 Cameron653 added the Type: Bug label Jun 9, 2016
@Cameron653 Cameron653 changed the title from Allows Prometheans to use spacesuits. to Allows Prometheans to use spacesuits. Also fixes false runtime bug. Jun 9, 2016
@Cameron653 Cameron653 changed the title from Allows Prometheans to use spacesuits. Also fixes false runtime bug. to Promethean bugfixes. Also fixes false runtime bug. Jun 9, 2016
@Arokha
Arokha commented Jun 9, 2016

Ace said he wants to make them more vulnerable to bullets/energy weapons to balance them. Think you can figure out how to do that and make this an overall promethean update?

@Cameron653

Sure, I could do that. Give me a bit.

@Cameron653 Cameron653 changed the title from Promethean bugfixes. Also fixes false runtime bug. to Promethean bugfixes. Also fixes false runtime bug. Adds in egg TF clarification. Jun 9, 2016
@Cameron653 Cameron653 removed the DO NOT MERGE label Jun 9, 2016
@Cameron653

Ready for merge.

@Cameron653 Cameron653 changed the title from Promethean bugfixes. Also fixes false runtime bug. Adds in egg TF clarification. to Bugfixes. Also fixes false runtime bug. Adds in egg TF clarification. Jun 9, 2016
@Cameron653

DNM, adding something in.

@Cameron653 Cameron653 removed the DO NOT MERGE label Jun 9, 2016
@Cameron653

Added in a commit to make it so different genders have different pronouns. (He/she/they/it)
Fixes #289

@antsnap
antsnap commented Jun 9, 2016 edited

My gut says the healing rate nerf is way too much, but I don't know off the top of my head ticks-per-second, but even then reducing the value by a factor of 25 sounds extreme. Everything else is good obv since it's fixes, so gj.

For heal balancing, I don't think it will matter much other than events, in which case just bar their race from antag imo. I feel lowering it should only be done as a temporary fix for any damage bugs out there (if they are out there), but that's just me. However, if you must, just cut it down to 2 a tick and see how it goes. I'll go into why I don't think it should be heavily reduced from a design perspective later, but first...

I feel lowering it too much removes fun RP scenarios

E.G. Scenario: If you are a sadist slime and the masochist tries to turn the tables (RP ofc), as a slime you add the power dynamic of brushing off their blows and resubduing them. If heal rate is too low, then this doesn't work.

Digestion is duel brute/heat damage right? Right now the heal rate eclipses the heat damage aspect of digestion, so instead of simply increasing the time you can be in an acid filled belly (or decreasing, since there's a heat dmg multiplier), you can now be there forever. That shouldn't happen. Only the slime people with digestion off shouldn't digest.

Lasers do brute or fire damage? If lasers do fire/heat damage, then prometheans take more damage from that than humans AFAIK. In that case, then you just can't use your magnum/rifle/whatever, and have to use laser guns from the armory. From an RP standpoint this is fine. Different threats need different approaches.

If lasers do brute though, then yeah that's an issue. However, heat guns from sci are brutal for heat dmg so you could always just use them.

I know the variety of guns we have here is strong, and a lot of people are into that, but not being able to easily subdue one race outta 5+ isn't that big a deal imo, and there's fun in switching out your arsenal once in awhile.

Brute damage is popular, but do you think it should kill jello? If the jello is sentient and can reform and shapeshift at will, do you think it shouldn't be able to pick up the piece you shot out? This is the reason why they take little brute damage. From a non-erp RP perspective and lore perspective, this is fun and consistent with expectations. Gameplay? maybe an issue. Here it's a starting race, but on polaris it's a result of xenobio experiments. For that reason I can stomach a small nerf I suppose, but still..

Anyway, hey, we aren't polaris, different folks different needs.

Also, as a note according to the wiki

https://wiki.vore-station.net/Guide_to_Xenobiology_2

The high regen is only for non-heat damage. I have a feeling that this might be bugged atm though (e.g. digestion), but I think it works. So there's another reason to not nerf healing too much.

@Arokha
Arokha commented Jun 9, 2016 edited

heat guns from sci are brutal for heat dmg so you could always just use them.

As far as I know, these don't, and have never worked anywhere but /vg/.

If lasers do fire/heat damage, then prometheans take more damage from that than humans AFAIK. In that case, then you just can't use your magnum/rifle/whatever, and have to use laser guns from the armory.

There are other things to consider with this, though. With 5/tick, they heal 1670% faster than humans. So you shoot one in the chest with a laser canon, square on, from 2 tiles away, they are fully healed in 15 ticks. They have no internal organs to damage that don't heal on their own. Humans have the problem of having internal organs. If they have taken dermalin or something? 5 ticks for fully healed.

EDIT: For comparison it would take a human 266 ticks to naturally heal the same wound. And they would not heal any internal damage as internal organs do not heal on their own.

@Cameron653
Cameron653 commented Jun 9, 2016 edited

My gut says the healing rate nerf is way too much, but I don't know off the top of my head ticks-per-second, but even then reducing the value by a factor of 25 sounds extreme.

The healing rate nerf was completely needed, as otherwise they're completely bullshit and nearly impossible to kill. I really don't care what other people think about how much I nerfed their healing rate. They're a default race. They shouldn't be the "best" race to choose; they have way too many upsides and too few downsides.

If you are a sadist slime and the masochist tries to turn the tables (RP ofc), as a slime you add the power dynamic of brushing off their blows and resubduing them. If heal rate is too low, then this doesn't work.

People aren't required to use the harm intent/mechanically hurt each other. You can easily write a /me describing what you're doing and then turn the tables there with roleplay instead of mechanics.

For heal balancing, I don't think it will matter much other than events, in which case just bar their race from antag imo. I feel lowering it should only be done as a temporary fix for any damage bugs out there (if they are out there), but that's just me. However, if you must, just cut it down to 2 a tick and see how it goes. I'll go into why I don't think it should be heavily reduced from a design perspective later, but first...

Having a race be so powerful they have to be barred from events is just adding even more support that they're too good and need a massive nerf. Also, having them heal 2 damage a tick of every damage type is still extremely bullshit.

I feel lowering it too much removes fun RP scenarios

People can use /me's instead of mechanics.

Lasers do brute or fire damage? If lasers do fire/heat damage, then prometheans take more damage from that than humans AFAIK. In that case, then you just can't use your magnum/rifle/whatever, and have to use laser guns from the armory. From an RP standpoint this is fine. Different threats need different approaches.

Lasers do fire, bullet based weapons do brute. And you can use a bullet based weapon to kill a Promethean, as it still does damage, just 50% less.

Example:
20 damage laser based weapon (Laser carbine): 40 damage (Three shots to instantly kill them, four shots in practice to kill them.)

60 damage bullet based weapon (Revolver): 30 damage (Four shorts to kill them, five shots in practice to kill them.)

Digestion is duel brute/heat damage right? Right now the heal rate eclipses the heat damage aspect of digestion, so instead of simply increasing the time you can be in an acid filled belly (or decreasing, since there's a heat dmg multiplier), you can now be there forever. That shouldn't happen. Slime people with digestion off shouldn't digest.

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this, but I'm assuming you meant to type "Slime people with digestion on should digest" because they currently don't digest if digestion is toggled to "off"
Anyways, this PR fixes that and makes it so they don't heal faster than they digest.

Brute damage is popular, but do you think it should kill jello? If the jello is sentient and can reform and shapeshift at will, do you think it shouldn't be able to pick up the piece you shot out? This is the reason why they take little brute damage. From a non-erp RP perspective and lore perspective, this is fun and consistent with expectations. Gameplay? maybe an issue. Here it's a starting race, but on polaris it's a result of xenobio experiments. For that reason I can stomach a small nerf I suppose, but still..

I do believe brute should kill them, as they're already 100% immune to oxygen damage and have no internal organs (Except for their "slime core" aka their brain.) ICly, the reason they can die from brute is because their slime core gets hurt bad enough they just melt into a puddle. From a mechanic standpoint, they take brute damage because it'd be insane to make them completely unable to be killed by the damage type that most weapons in the game cause.

The high regen is only for non-heat damage. I have a feeling that this might be bugged atm though (e.g. digestion), but I think it works. So there's another reason to not nerf healing too much.

The wiki is wrong.
https://github.com/VOREStation/VOREStation/blob/7b0441ee04dd598eb717d750932586ea9492424d/code/modules/mob/living/carbon/human/species/station/prometheans.dm#L155-L158
They heal all damages. Might want to tell the person who made the wiki this so they can fix it

@antsnap
antsnap commented Jun 9, 2016

I really don't care what other people think about how much I nerfed their healing rate

One of the few things that can't be taken out of context is such a blatant disrespect for community input in a community game. You should absolutely care 100% about what people say. I'm very upset at that sentence, but it sounds like it comes from a place of hurt so I won't tear into it too much out of

They shouldn't be the "best" race to choose; they have way too many upsides and too few downsides.

This is an ERP server with some high RP mixed in. If you are picking a race cause it's the "best" then you have a problem (or rather, are a problem). Furthermore, name even one case of this happening with prometheans. Probably hard right? And even if there's one, there surely isn't enough to warrant such a drastic change. Why punish EVERY slime character for the actions of a handful, instead of punishing the handful?

Having a race be so powerful they have to be barred from events...

Did you check the OOC announcments in discord? Ace announced a megadome brawl or something, only big and normal sizes allowed. No tinies, small, or macros. Know why? Because the smaller you are the smaller your hit box is, and the bigger you are the bigger the hitbox is. It's unfair to let tinies fight in it cause they will always win unless the other person is botting their clicks somehow. Macros are banned since it's such a disadvantage for them it wouldn't be fun.

Same logic.

People aren't required to use the harm intent/mechanically hurt each other. You can easily write a /me describing what you're doing and then turn the tables there with roleplay instead of mechanics.

Yes, but you can say the same thing to the vore system in general: "Just have them go into a locker while you /me digestion". Obviously that is less fun and immersive. Same logic.

Lasers do fire, bullet based weapons do brute. And you can use a bullet based weapon to kill a >Promethean, as it still does damage, just 50% less.

Example:...

If that is true, then that shouldn't be the case. Prometheans should have NO resistence to damage types they are strong against, they should just regenerate it very fast. Conceptually sentient goo you slice cuts just as easy as flesh (easier, even), but they quickly heal that damage via reforming.

Also lasers should do more damage maybe imo. Two shots is fine. One is absurd though b/c people will accidentally murder a slime in a firefight.

Anyways, this PR fixes that and makes it so they don't heal faster than they digest.

It's good that the PR fixes it, but not the way it fixes it. You've nerfed healing for ALL damage types instead of just fire (i.e. how it's supposed to be).

ICly, the reason they can die from brute is because their slime core gets hurt bad enough they just melt into a puddle.

Normal slimes are strong against brute as well (the glomping blob kind with the :3 faces), so I don't think this can apply. Also, you open up a HUGE can of IC worms.

>But the core is in their center, if they get shot in the arm they shouldn't die?
>But what if they can move their core to respond to shots (from belly to head etc.)?
>What's a core made of?

etc.

From a mechanic standpoint, they take brute damage because it'd be insane to make them completely unable to be killed by the damage type that most weapons in the game cause.

Why would it make it insane? How often does combat come up on a day-to-day basis. We shouldn't hurt RP/ERP (you know, the server's purpose) to accommodate something that doesn't show up often. We are not hippie. There is a reason at hippie/tg all races are just reskins. We can do things differently because the very nature of our server is different.

The wiki is wrong.

IDK where they got it either, but they are a good person (they are in discord and stuff). I think they got it from a legit source. The race comes from Polaris's new xenobio that we ported ASFAIK so they probably got it from the git notes.

I suggest we balance it other ways. I'ma make a thread on the forum for player input but, I feel we should just increase brute damage for them (slime gets cut easier, by bullets fists and knives), leave heal rate the same, and fix the damn heat dmg bug. This is good, since bullets are fired rapidly, and since the damage is increased they wont heal out of it as fast. This way those with custom guns can still be relevant, while knive users and such still have to overcome the legitimate advantage of the slime people in brute combat. Also remove the purported boost they get from healing drugs, since that's kinda weird. I'd be ok with removing the effects of ALL good drugs on them as a balance, since the anatomy is so different, but that isn't that much of a nerf anyways.

Of course, all these things are harder than simply changing a number from 5 to 0.2, but it provides more depth, better balance, and ultimately fun imo.

But my biggest suggestion is remove this nerf from an otherwise beautiful bug fix pull request. I'm guilty of mixing gameplay changes/balance/features with bug fixes, but once I knew it was wrong I fixed it and never did it again. I'm not saying you did it out of malice or ignorance, since you are a good person and a smart coder, but you should take it out. This is something the community needs to discuss.

@Cameron653
Cameron653 commented Jun 9, 2016 edited

One of the few things that can't be taken out of context is such a blatant disrespect for community input in a community game. You should absolutely care 100% about what people say. I'm very upset at that sentence, but it sounds like it comes from a place of hurt so I won't tear into it too much out of

Going to take back what I said, as I was extremely pissed off at someone at the time of writing that. That was unprofessional of me, and I'm sorry for that. Now that I've resolved the problem, I can write without having my emotions get in the way.

This is an ERP server with some high RP mixed in. If you are picking a race cause it's the "best" then you have a problem (or rather, are a problem). Furthermore, name even one case of this happening with prometheans. Probably hard right? And even if there's one, there surely isn't enough to warrant such a drastic change. Why punish EVERY slime character for the actions of a handful, instead of punishing the handful?

It's not that there are people that are abusing it, it's just the fact that it is abusable. There's no reason to have a feature that makes a race nearly impossible to kill with little to no downsides. There was no health regeneration in the old code, and nobody asked for slime people to be virtually unkillable in the old code. It was an unintended feature caused by porting over to polaris that is only causing problems.

Did you check the OOC announcments in discord? Ace announced a megadome brawl or something, only big and normal sizes allowed. No tinies, small, or macros. Know why? Because the smaller you are the smaller your hit box is, and the bigger you are the bigger the hitbox is. It's unfair to let tinies fight in it cause they will always win unless the other person is botting their clicks somehow. Macros are banned since it's such a disadvantage for them it wouldn't be fun.

I really have no idea why micros or macros weren't allowed in that event, as it was PVE, and monsters and bullets don't care about hitbox size. They wouldn't of had an advantage at all, and would've actually had a disadvantage as they would get hit by friendly fire easier due to being unseen (In the case of micros) or accidentally being shot at (In the case of macros)

Yes, but you can say the same thing to the vore system in general: "Just have them go into a locker while you /me digestion". Obviously that is less fun and immersive. Same logic.

The vore code itself isn't all that abusable. Sure, you can eat someone as a mouse and bring them to an area to let them out, but that's exploitation and not allowed. This, on the otherhand, is extremely exploitable and causes massive problems. Even at healing 1 damage per tick they'd be able to survive in space, take damages and not have to worry about them, and many other things. People naturally heal up to a certain point, and slimes still have that natural healing and also regenerate limbs that are broken/missing, which completely heals that limb, meaning that RP that involves massive damage to limbs is still possible, just not hitting them for so much damage that they gib.

If that is true, then that shouldn't be the case. Prometheans should have NO resistence to damage types they are strong against, they should just regenerate it very fast. Conceptually sentient goo you slice cuts just as easy as flesh (easier, even), but they quickly heal that damage via reforming.

Having a natural regeneration to a damage type is an extremely bad idea. Giving them a 50% resistance to brute and a .2 health regeneration to brute is good , as they won't be able to spacewalk forever (And will actually digest), but giving them a 0% resistance to brute and a 1 health regeneration to brute is bad, as they can literally spacewalk with little/no problems (And won't be able to be digested.).

Also lasers should do more damage maybe imo. Two shots is fine. One is absurd though b/c people will accidentally murder a slime in a firefight.

This would be a bad idea, as slimes (when killed) explode and are unclonable. Having 2X damage is good, as it makes up for the 50% brute damage buff, but any more than that and they'll be way too squishy. (As in, they can't be scanned and cloned, unless you want to put their brain in an already dead human and clone them in their new body, and will also make digestion way too fast.)

It's good that the PR fixes it, but not the way it fixes it. You've nerfed healing for ALL damage types instead of just fire (i.e. how it's supposed to be).

They shouldn't only be able to be killed via one damage type and be virtually unkillable by all others. Not only that, but as I've already said, having a high natural health regeneration makes it impossible to be digested, as digestion does brute and burn damage IIRC.

But the core is in their center, if they get shot in the arm they shouldn't die?
But what if they can move their core to respond to shots (from belly to head etc.)?
What's a core made of?

They can't die from being shot in the arm/leg (At least with brute damage) as it'll just fall off then instantly grow back, healing all the damage it took. This is a polaris feature and I really can't stop it from happening, which is yet another upside the slimes have compared to all other races.

They could possibly move their core, but as it is, the only way they're able to be killed is by taking enough damage to either their head/chest. Their core would definitely get hurt in the process of killing them, no matter what.

Core is made out of, as the code has it "A complex, organic knot of jelly and crystalline particles."

just increase brute damage for them (slime gets cut easier, by bullets fists and knives), leave heal rate the same, and fix the damn heat dmg bug.

Leaving the heal rate will cause massive problems with digestion and space as I listed above, along with the fact that they could easily just run out of harms range and heal up nearly instantly and be back at 100% health. Slimes really shouldn't be a race that has a massive advantage over any other race. They originally had no advantages in the old code, but updating to Polaris changed this.

Also remove the purported boost they get from healing drugs, since that's kinda weird.

No idea why that's on the wiki, because as far as I know, this isn't the case. They have the "IS_SLIME" reagent tag, but that does literally nothing.

But my biggest suggestion is remove this nerf from an otherwise beautiful bug fix pull request. I'm guilty of mixing gameplay changes/balance/features with bug fixes, but once I knew it was wrong I fixed it and never did it again. This is something the community needs to discuss.

I was originally fixing just the spacesuit bug (As they couldn't wear spacesuits) and then found yet another bug having to do with runtimes, fixed that, then was requested to make it an overall Promethean update. If I knew I was going to be updating them, I wouldn't of had the bugfixes in this PR along with gameplay changes, but that's how it ended up happening.

@Cameron653 Cameron653 closed this Jun 9, 2016
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