Ok, I always thought these guys would deliver, but now I'm having serious doubts for more reasons than have been mentioned. If anyone has answers, please share:
1) Every single fuel cell ever (and that's saying something) has required ultra-pure fuel in order to work without fouling the membrane and quickly making zero power. Did these guys ever say how this was overcome? There are heavier hydrocarbon fractions in lighter gas that can not be 100% oxidised without residue even in a huge furnace, which will cake on the interface surface. Incredible claims require incredible proof.
2) Did anyone ever witness a prototype, like, gas going in, power coming out, and most importantly gas being consumed and the device getting quite warm (since at most it is 25% efficient, the rest turns into heat)? Did anyone see more than a pretty case around a conventional lithium ion battery pack?
3) The Lilliputian Startup got a huge $150 million in funding, fabrication by Intel, brains from MIT, and they still went bankrupt trying to create a system that was less efficient than the Kraftwerk with ultra-pure fuel you had to buy from them. How exactly did eZelleron beat their efforts? Who was this world class team What did they work on before to give them this expertise?
4) Does it seem like only "Sascha Kuehn" is now associated with the product? He's the only one battling on for them in facebook. I remember there were some complaints on a German employment feedback website (if you scroll down far enough) saying basically that 'management was crazy'. Is anyone in contact, or can contact these people for further comment on how real this product was?
5) Does it really make sense for them to come to America with the last of their cash (or otherwise doing something illegal and transferring all their funds to another overseas company leaving their old one to go bankrupt)? If the only machine that could make these (apparently world class, world first) fuel cell units is in Germany, then it is lost in the bankruptcy. If you had trouble with injection molding, you're not going to get a discount moving to the USA. So is this admitting the problem is funding and that they are searching for more capital? Why would you give up the fuel cell machine to ask for more money for the outside plastic?
6) If it is true that this was an impossible product to make, by a team that was never competent enough to make it, requiring fraudulent 'demo units' that were apparently full functioning, then that puts the lie to the idea that they're just waiting upon 'injection molding'. If this case is fraudulent, which would be obvious as soon as you asked them for a demo unit you could look inside. If so, then there are people left in America and Germany to sue and put on criminal charges. Anyone got any ideas?
Hege dennoch die Hoffnung, das 'Kraftwerk' noch geliefert zu bekommen... Um einen heißt das Insolvenz-Verfahren der GmbH noch nicht das Ende aller Tage, zum anderen ist die 'Inc.' nach meinem Kenntnisstand noch am 'werkeln' oder ?
Verstehe allerdings nicht, weshalb hier seitens der Projekt-Verantwortlichen nichts unternommen wird, hier endlich mal für Klarheit zu sorgen....
So far all we have are words and a bunch of re-used images or pictures that have no solid evidence amounting to the claim that the company is indeed working on it.
So far ezelleron has proven their words mean and prove little.
@R. Sanchez Goldar: That is difficult to know. The creator says this will still happen, but there are many things that makes it hard to believe. So far we will just have to wait and see.
Effective April 18, 2016, the District Court of Dresden has opened insolvency proceedings in eZelleron GmbH. As liquidator, the court has the lawyer Thomas Beck of the law firm Beck employed lawyers. The Dresden-based start-up had in 2015 presented a technology for a mobile power plant the size of a cigarette box and courted investors.
"Investors looking for the company was in Germany and Europe not as successful, so that the company's founder has submitted an application to open insolvency proceedings on November 5, 2015," informed bankruptcy law expert Thomas Beck, who specializes in the rescue and restructuring of companies.
"The extent to which a reorganization founded in Dresden 2008 company is possible, I can not currently say" emphasizes liquidator Beck and adds: "Current discussions with several major creditors and various investors are guided. Its output will be crucial for the further course of the proceedings. "
EZelleron GmbH is a spin-off from an institute of the Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft. Up to 25 people have researched on low-emission energy sources for mobile power in the company. In January 2015, the Dresden researchers had kickstarter.com imagined her developed mini-power plant for the pocket and launched a crowdfunding
It would be nice if they would at least post an update saying whether or not they will eventually(?) be sending us the generators we paid for. If you're not going to do it, at least own up to it.
Die Firma ist insolvent und das hier weiterhin so getan wird als wäre alles in Ordnung, es geht voran und es gäbe nur eine weitere Verzögerung, ist für mich eindeutig eine mutwillige Täuschung. Ob eine Strafanzeige etwas bringt wage ich zu bezweifeln. Wäre vermutlich nur vergeudete Zeit & Nerven.
yes it is. Liquidation without anything of worth. Kicked from the german accelerator program. No communication at all. Guess they are sitting on a beach and drinking cocktails. Well to be honest 1,5 billion euro are not that much but i think you can get by especially if you still have some left from the german goverment. And even if they still would work on it. All our claims died when ezelleron went into liquidation. We hat kind a contract with a company thats not existing anymore.
And even then Sasha kühn seid in an Bild interview that he doesnt have to give us anything because kickstarter pledges are gifts not preorders.
I am surprised Stephen did not bother to speak about how Kraftwerk started in Germany and with a German name can be so unprofessional, bringing disgrace to other well known and better German companies.
@Stephen
You wanna be patient sure go ahead, but get your rear end off your high horse first and stop calling other backers disrespectfully. All of us have a say in this whether or not it is a gamble, so stick to your opinion and offer it, but cut the name calling, as if you know better.
@Stephan: LOL. Believing them is your choice whatsoever. But I hope you read Terms of Use of Kickstarter. Creator must be held responsible for backers and their pledge.
What the hell is going on with all you people here? Kraftwerk has problems with some technical issues, finance issues and Kraftwerk band owners. Why do you make it more complicated for them by screaming for reimbursement and suiting them?! They invested the money and there is no chance for reimbursement, that should be clear for everyone with a small functional brain. All supporters should now support them by patience. There is nothing to get back. If we are lucky, they will finally find a way to solve the problems and we might have a product one or two years later than expected. But if people behave that stupid now and blame them, I would not be surprised if they finally give up and everything would be lost. I only wish that Kraftwerk team will be strong enough to ignore such idiots and keep on doing the necessary work. I don't want to see that project die and lose my pledged money because of impatient idiots. Pledging is always a risk. Accept that it may take much longer and don't make their job even more complicated!
Of course they won't give all their knowledge to chinese manufacturers. Maybe they have a contractor who produces housings and fans and electronics, I guess they had that plan anyway, but for sure they won't give the fuel cell technology out of their hand. They invested much more energy, own money and life time in that project than all backers ever did. Be patient, don't stop to trust and don't make it complicated.
I feel especially ashamed for people that are from Germany like me, if they are talking such 's bullshit here which is dangerous to make the Kraftwerk team give up finally.
Actually out of 15 backed project this is just a 2nd failure. But while most of my backing stick under 50usd, this time I dumped nearly 200.. not too proud of it
After talking to German Accelerator program facebook asking" hey I'm inquirying if a company called eZelleron or kraftwerk® has moved into your business hub at Silicon valley?"
They replied:
Dear Kenny,
Thank you for contacting us. eZelleron is not part of the German Accelerator program anymore. We unfortunately have no further information for you.
Best regards,
GA - Team
They've Liquidated their company assets and using these 6 months to cover their tracks.
The probability of them delivering? 2 to 1/10 chance. If they manage to, hats off to them for a come-back. That being said, it still leaves a huge question mark on how they handled the funds and their project management skills. Engineers or Communicators, it does not matter especially when it comes to communication and the basic skills of being professional in a world of business. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out good communication, and honestly speaking, poor management is not because they do not have skills or resources available, it is how they handle it. While there will always be excuses, it definitely does not outweigh the lack of professionalism and negligence.
Does it sound like a Zano project failure? It sure does, the sheer amount of time taken and lack of proper updates or communication gives backers every reason and right to assume this project is gonna take us on a ride.
WHat they did right? Great innovation and fantastic marketing and packaging in making backers pour in the funds.
What they did wrong? Negligence and lack of funds/project management. The business world is a harsh place, and if you can't get a crowd funding right, you should re-consider and make revisions.
Does this experience change my view of Kickstarter? No, IT CHANGES MY VIEW OF THEM. They are alot of other successful projects which we handled well and many I know of went the extra mile even when they did not need to, and those great projects know that if they do good by backers, they gain a loyal following for future endeavors.
So before we even try to comfort ourselves and try to look as if we did not make a blunder in supporting them, let us focus on the here and now, they lack professionalism and they are terrible in their communication with backers. And please, everyone knows that "it is an investment and a gamble" and we are way beyond that old overused phrase, so we can cut that BS out.
I have put quite some money in this project and I think I will be rewarded for that. These are engineers not communicators. So even if they will go bankrupt once or twice they will go on and even if we will not get our reward we will have supported this technology.
So after everything is said and done, does anyone feel like this project may actually deliver? Is it one of those doomed projects that takes your money and runs? What do you think they did right? What do you think they did wrong? Did this experience change your view of Kickstarter?
James Bailey on July 2
Ok, I always thought these guys would deliver, but now I'm having serious doubts for more reasons than have been mentioned. If anyone has answers, please share:
1) Every single fuel cell ever (and that's saying something) has required ultra-pure fuel in order to work without fouling the membrane and quickly making zero power. Did these guys ever say how this was overcome? There are heavier hydrocarbon fractions in lighter gas that can not be 100% oxidised without residue even in a huge furnace, which will cake on the interface surface. Incredible claims require incredible proof.
2) Did anyone ever witness a prototype, like, gas going in, power coming out, and most importantly gas being consumed and the device getting quite warm (since at most it is 25% efficient, the rest turns into heat)? Did anyone see more than a pretty case around a conventional lithium ion battery pack?
3) The Lilliputian Startup got a huge $150 million in funding, fabrication by Intel, brains from MIT, and they still went bankrupt trying to create a system that was less efficient than the Kraftwerk with ultra-pure fuel you had to buy from them. How exactly did eZelleron beat their efforts? Who was this world class team What did they work on before to give them this expertise?
4) Does it seem like only "Sascha Kuehn" is now associated with the product? He's the only one battling on for them in facebook. I remember there were some complaints on a German employment feedback website (if you scroll down far enough) saying basically that 'management was crazy'. Is anyone in contact, or can contact these people for further comment on how real this product was?
5) Does it really make sense for them to come to America with the last of their cash (or otherwise doing something illegal and transferring all their funds to another overseas company leaving their old one to go bankrupt)? If the only machine that could make these (apparently world class, world first) fuel cell units is in Germany, then it is lost in the bankruptcy. If you had trouble with injection molding, you're not going to get a discount moving to the USA. So is this admitting the problem is funding and that they are searching for more capital? Why would you give up the fuel cell machine to ask for more money for the outside plastic?
6) If it is true that this was an impossible product to make, by a team that was never competent enough to make it, requiring fraudulent 'demo units' that were apparently full functioning, then that puts the lie to the idea that they're just waiting upon 'injection molding'. If this case is fraudulent, which would be obvious as soon as you asked them for a demo unit you could look inside. If so, then there are people left in America and Germany to sue and put on criminal charges. Anyone got any ideas?
Omer Aksu on July 2
This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.
Ralf Winkler on June 30
Hege dennoch die Hoffnung, das 'Kraftwerk' noch geliefert zu bekommen... Um einen heißt das Insolvenz-Verfahren der GmbH noch nicht das Ende aller Tage, zum anderen ist die 'Inc.' nach meinem Kenntnisstand noch am 'werkeln' oder ?
Verstehe allerdings nicht, weshalb hier seitens der Projekt-Verantwortlichen nichts unternommen wird, hier endlich mal für Klarheit zu sorgen....
M. A. on June 30
@Michael @Eric
I have sent them PMs for refunds, much to no avail. I think our money has been flushed down the toilet.
Eric Lansaw on June 30
Send me a refund also!!
Michael Lee on June 30
I would like a refund please.
Ronny Vogel on June 30
:/// mein schönes Geld! Dachte ich bekomm das Teil einfach und gut...Prototypen usw gab es doch... :((
M. A. on June 29
So far all we have are words and a bunch of re-used images or pictures that have no solid evidence amounting to the claim that the company is indeed working on it.
So far ezelleron has proven their words mean and prove little.
ThomasDN on June 29
@R. Sanchez Goldar: That is difficult to know. The creator says this will still happen, but there are many things that makes it hard to believe. So far we will just have to wait and see.
R. Sanchez Goldar on June 29
So it is really over?
Noelle on June 29
Humph! - http://www.anwaelte-beck.de/presse/26-insolvenzverfahren-bei-ezelleron-gmbh-eroeffnet.html
Allow me to translate this Article in English -
Effective April 18, 2016, the District Court of Dresden has opened insolvency proceedings in eZelleron GmbH. As liquidator, the court has the lawyer Thomas Beck of the law firm Beck employed lawyers. The Dresden-based start-up had in 2015 presented a technology for a mobile power plant the size of a cigarette box and courted investors.
"Investors looking for the company was in Germany and Europe not as successful, so that the company's founder has submitted an application to open insolvency proceedings on November 5, 2015," informed bankruptcy law expert Thomas Beck, who specializes in the rescue and restructuring of companies.
"The extent to which a reorganization founded in Dresden 2008 company is possible, I can not currently say" emphasizes liquidator Beck and adds: "Current discussions with several major creditors and various investors are guided. Its output will be crucial for the further course of the proceedings. "
EZelleron GmbH is a spin-off from an institute of the Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft. Up to 25 people have researched on low-emission energy sources for mobile power in the company. In January 2015, the Dresden researchers had kickstarter.com imagined her developed mini-power plant for the pocket and launched a crowdfunding
Noelle on June 29
Could always open a lawsuit against the company since this is all clearly going nowhere. Would anyone else jump in on this?
Könnte immer eine Klage gegen das Unternehmen öffnen, da dies alles klar nirgendwo geht. Würde jemand anderes auf dieser Sprung in?
Dave Sullivan on June 28
Is anyone friend's with the chief fraudster? https://www.facebook.com/profile.php…
Dirk Hagedorn on June 28
Hmm interesting
same idea...same crash...150 mio. Venture Capital lost...and also adress in Wilmington...
http://www.betaboston.com/news/2014/07/31/lilliputian-systems-mit-spin-out-that-raised-150-million-runs-out-of-fuel/
Eddi82 on June 28
although it was clear from the beginning that we take the risk of loosing our money, it is a shame how arrogant ezelleron behaves on fecebook.
Mark Shoulson on June 27
It would be nice if they would at least post an update saying whether or not they will eventually(?) be sending us the generators we paid for. If you're not going to do it, at least own up to it.
Dāvis Freimanis on June 27
Don't give up on kickstarter, i have backed 40+ projects only this one has failed.
Marco Grimm on June 27
Refund please!
John Horton on June 27
What evidence is the that they have bust?
Brian Gatenby on June 27
https://www.facebook.com/hellokraftwerk/
ThomasDN on June 26
@Gerald Allen: Do you have a link?
Gerald Allen on June 26
Kraftwerk is actively posting on Facebook like they don't have a care in the world...
Jim on June 25
Refund please! You are very going to make this, I would like me money back.
kokabun on June 25
試作機の製作状況教えてください。
画像付きでお願いします。
Carl franklin on June 25
Sad that founders just walk away without having the balls to tell us it was all a big failure.
Felix Forsten on June 24
Die Firma ist insolvent und das hier weiterhin so getan wird als wäre alles in Ordnung, es geht voran und es gäbe nur eine weitere Verzögerung, ist für mich eindeutig eine mutwillige Täuschung. Ob eine Strafanzeige etwas bringt wage ich zu bezweifeln. Wäre vermutlich nur vergeudete Zeit & Nerven.
Hier eine Mitteilung der Kanzlei des Insolvenzverwalters:
http://www.anwaelte-beck.de/presse/26-insolvenzverfahren-bei-ezelleron-gmbh-eroeffnet.html
Fragga - Judicator of the Obsidian Order on June 24
sorry mixed a little german in there xD
Fragga - Judicator of the Obsidian Order on June 24
yes it is. Liquidation without anything of worth. Kicked from the german accelerator program. No communication at all. Guess they are sitting on a beach and drinking cocktails. Well to be honest 1,5 billion euro are not that much but i think you can get by especially if you still have some left from the german goverment. And even if they still would work on it. All our claims died when ezelleron went into liquidation. We hat kind a contract with a company thats not existing anymore.
And even then Sasha kühn seid in an Bild interview that he doesnt have to give us anything because kickstarter pledges are gifts not preorders.
Chi-Hon Choi on June 24
So...this project is really dead?
Rodrigo Gomes on June 24
I would like a refund, please.
Axel H. on June 22
Ich überlege eine Strafanzeige wegen Betrugs und lasse mich mal rechtlich beraten...
M. A. on June 22
Jinx and giving ideas refer to the Patent troll :)
M. A. on June 22
@Christian Veldhoen
Haha please don't jinx the project :) or don't give them ideas lol
Christian Veldhoen on June 22
Oh and hopefully not another patent-troll...
Christian Veldhoen on June 22
As a gamer would just say: "report..."
Michael Banks on June 22
I've been waiting 3 years for one KS campaign & they still promising to deliver... ( Sixense Stem ) so best we all be patient ......
M. A. on June 19
@Works
Agreed.
I am surprised Stephen did not bother to speak about how Kraftwerk started in Germany and with a German name can be so unprofessional, bringing disgrace to other well known and better German companies.
@Stephen
You wanna be patient sure go ahead, but get your rear end off your high horse first and stop calling other backers disrespectfully. All of us have a say in this whether or not it is a gamble, so stick to your opinion and offer it, but cut the name calling, as if you know better.
works on June 19
Actually, I'm very surprised there are some suckers in this situation. Kraftwerk went into liquidation only a few weeks ago.
works on June 19
@Stephan: LOL. Believing them is your choice whatsoever. But I hope you read Terms of Use of Kickstarter. Creator must be held responsible for backers and their pledge.
Stephan Schirmer on June 19
What the hell is going on with all you people here? Kraftwerk has problems with some technical issues, finance issues and Kraftwerk band owners. Why do you make it more complicated for them by screaming for reimbursement and suiting them?! They invested the money and there is no chance for reimbursement, that should be clear for everyone with a small functional brain. All supporters should now support them by patience. There is nothing to get back. If we are lucky, they will finally find a way to solve the problems and we might have a product one or two years later than expected. But if people behave that stupid now and blame them, I would not be surprised if they finally give up and everything would be lost. I only wish that Kraftwerk team will be strong enough to ignore such idiots and keep on doing the necessary work. I don't want to see that project die and lose my pledged money because of impatient idiots. Pledging is always a risk. Accept that it may take much longer and don't make their job even more complicated!
Of course they won't give all their knowledge to chinese manufacturers. Maybe they have a contractor who produces housings and fans and electronics, I guess they had that plan anyway, but for sure they won't give the fuel cell technology out of their hand. They invested much more energy, own money and life time in that project than all backers ever did. Be patient, don't stop to trust and don't make it complicated.
I feel especially ashamed for people that are from Germany like me, if they are talking such 's bullshit here which is dangerous to make the Kraftwerk team give up finally.
Andrews M on June 18
Actually out of 15 backed project this is just a 2nd failure. But while most of my backing stick under 50usd, this time I dumped nearly 200.. not too proud of it
Andrews M on June 18
I regret backing this project. They are incompetent and I should have seen it on day 1, but I didn't. Lesson learned I hope.
Carl franklin on June 18
@Dirk
An address in Delaware means little. Probably a virtual or registered office, certainly not an operating base.
Kenny Ng on June 18
After talking to German Accelerator program facebook asking" hey I'm inquirying if a company called eZelleron or kraftwerk® has moved into your business hub at Silicon valley?"
They replied:
Dear Kenny,
Thank you for contacting us. eZelleron is not part of the German Accelerator program anymore. We unfortunately have no further information for you.
Best regards,
GA - Team
They've Liquidated their company assets and using these 6 months to cover their tracks.
M. A. on June 17
@Anonymous
The probability of them delivering? 2 to 1/10 chance. If they manage to, hats off to them for a come-back. That being said, it still leaves a huge question mark on how they handled the funds and their project management skills. Engineers or Communicators, it does not matter especially when it comes to communication and the basic skills of being professional in a world of business. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out good communication, and honestly speaking, poor management is not because they do not have skills or resources available, it is how they handle it. While there will always be excuses, it definitely does not outweigh the lack of professionalism and negligence.
Does it sound like a Zano project failure? It sure does, the sheer amount of time taken and lack of proper updates or communication gives backers every reason and right to assume this project is gonna take us on a ride.
WHat they did right? Great innovation and fantastic marketing and packaging in making backers pour in the funds.
What they did wrong? Negligence and lack of funds/project management. The business world is a harsh place, and if you can't get a crowd funding right, you should re-consider and make revisions.
Does this experience change my view of Kickstarter? No, IT CHANGES MY VIEW OF THEM. They are alot of other successful projects which we handled well and many I know of went the extra mile even when they did not need to, and those great projects know that if they do good by backers, they gain a loyal following for future endeavors.
So before we even try to comfort ourselves and try to look as if we did not make a blunder in supporting them, let us focus on the here and now, they lack professionalism and they are terrible in their communication with backers. And please, everyone knows that "it is an investment and a gamble" and we are way beyond that old overused phrase, so we can cut that BS out.
Claes-Berend van der Kolk on June 17
I have put quite some money in this project and I think I will be rewarded for that. These are engineers not communicators. So even if they will go bankrupt once or twice they will go on and even if we will not get our reward we will have supported this technology.
Anonymous on June 17
So after everything is said and done, does anyone feel like this project may actually deliver? Is it one of those doomed projects that takes your money and runs? What do you think they did right? What do you think they did wrong? Did this experience change your view of Kickstarter?
Dirk Hagedorn on June 17
@Robert Stamm are you up todate ? the new Adress (found on Website) is
eZelleron Inc.
19C Trolley Square
Wilmington, DE 19806
And they are not longer member on the list of german accelerators !
Robert Stamm on June 17
720 University Avenue
Palo Alto
CA 93401
USA
That is the place to go to now...
Just to make sure, they don't spend our money for pool-partys....
ThomasDN on June 17
These are not the kraftwerk you are looking for.