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Dear David Gaider: Why didn't you write Anders?


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#1
Nyreen

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This is not a hate rant, but a politely-framed open letter. I am not trying to speak for all fans or all fangirls. Yes, I am aware that Gaider or any developers probably won't bother reading it.

Mr. Gaider,


         I was truly disappointed by Ander's change of face in the sequel. In Awakenings, he was a hilarious and lovable. Sarcastic and witty... a confessed cat-lover.

In the sequel he is a terrorist, armed with clichéd pickup lines.

The Justice/Vengeance story "explained" his ridiculous personality change, but did not excuse his poor writing. Like many fans around the forum I was angry and disappointed by the game, its conclusion, and the changed Anders. (Further reading - This article provides some insight into the inner workings of a DA fangirl's mind. ;))
Moving on, I believe the quote below describes exactly how I and others felt about the romances in DA2.

Viyu wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

Funny I felt I knew Alistair more in 6 months than I did 7 years with Fenris. I liked the companion quests but I think I like just talking about random things at the campsite more.


I did too. Do you want to know why? Because it gave the characters dimension, it made them feel like they had something more on their mind than the blight 24/7. Pretty much all party banter in DA2 is politically charged pro-mage v.s. pro-chantry campaign. The characters seem incredibly 1 dimensional and one track minded, with the exception of Isabella and Varric. Because that's ALL they can seem to talk about. <_<


If anything had be taken from Origins, I wish it had been camp. Or at least some form of open-ended discussions. I felt so cut off from the rest of my party.
 
As a complete outsider to the development of the game, I will not begin to assume why Jennifer Hepler was assigned with writing most of Anders in DA2. Can you tell us why didn't write most of Anders, as you did in Awakening? I will say that I would have put more faith in you to make Anders' story believable. You are responsible for much of Origin's material - most of Alistair and Zevran's hilarious, downright outrageously clever dialogue, and plenty more. I'm not trying to downplay the talents of the other writers on the team. Any game of this size is a combined effort. But I think Anders in DA2 is missing some of your attention.

(I'm sorry this letter went all over the place.) Well, all I can do is cross my fingers, and hope for a better DA3.

And wait for the anti-fangirl trolls to swarm this thread.

#2
LobselVith8

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Probably because he felt people were siding with the mages automatically and wanted to give people reason to side with the templars.

David Gaider wrote...

One need only glance at your average templar vs. mage thread (previous to DA2 coming out, in particular) to see that most people fall on the side of the mages almost by default.



#3
Nyreen

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Probably because he felt people were siding with the mages automatically and wanted to give people reason to side with the templars.

David Gaider wrote...

One need only glance at your average templar vs. mage thread (previous to DA2 coming out, in particular) to see that most people fall on the side of the mages almost by default.


True, but that doesn't excuse his poor dialogue and lack of it overall in the the game, with some exceptions.

#4
cihimi

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On the other hand, the writing might be so good that it made alot, and I mean a lot, of fans developed a deep-seated passionate hatred for Anders. Most were affected in such a ridiculous manner, they actually cheer with the option to kill Anders. I know I was. So you could say...that's how good the writing was.

Oh, for the record, I didn't find him loveable and witty in DAA. He was corny and tries too hard to be cool and suave.

And I blame Bioware for shoehorning me into using this dumb character.

Edited by cihimi, 21 April 2011 - 03:07 AM.


#5
mesmerizedish

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I hated Anders. But I think he was extremely well-written. I thought Ms. Hepler did a better job with Anders than Mr. Gaider did with Fenris. And I LOVE Mr. Gaider.

#6
David Gaider

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Celestina wrote...
As a complete outsider to the development of the game, I will not begin to assume why Jennifer Hepler was assigned with writing most of Anders in DA2. Can you tell us why didn't write most of Anders, as you did in Awakening? I will say that I would have put more faith in you to make Anders' story believable. You are responsible for much of Origin's material - most of Alistair and Zevran's hilarious, downright outrageously clever dialogue, and plenty more. I'm not trying to downplay the talents of the other writers on the team. Any game of this size is a combined effort. But I think Anders in DA2 is missing some of your attention.


I'm not certain what it is you assume I would have done differently. The role Anders plays in the sequel was set by myself as well as by the writing team, prior to anyone writing him. Even if I had been the one to write him, he most certainly would not have been the witty fellow you remember from Awakening... he's changed, in some very substantial ways, and if you're mourning the fact that he's different I can safely say that's very much part of the point.

A successful character provokes strong reactions. So I would say Anders was quite successful even if I didn't approve of Jennifer's writing job on him-- which I very much do. I think she did a stellar job. While there's always some trepidation in seeing someone else touch your baby, I had no reservations once I saw how she handled him.

If you felt less connected to your followers, that's too bad. There could be many reasons for that, but if the requirement to someone feeling connected is having long, rambling conversations in the party camp... I can safely say that's unlikely to happen again. I could see front-loading the characters a bit more so players are more thoroughly introduced (as it was, a lot of the character interaction ended up in Act 2 quite by accident) but I have absolutely no intention of returning to the reams of expository dialogue as a replacement for character development anytime soon.

#7
WhiteKnyght

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David Gaider wrote...

Celestina wrote...
As a complete outsider to the development of the game, I will not begin to assume why Jennifer Hepler was assigned with writing most of Anders in DA2. Can you tell us why didn't write most of Anders, as you did in Awakening? I will say that I would have put more faith in you to make Anders' story believable. You are responsible for much of Origin's material - most of Alistair and Zevran's hilarious, downright outrageously clever dialogue, and plenty more. I'm not trying to downplay the talents of the other writers on the team. Any game of this size is a combined effort. But I think Anders in DA2 is missing some of your attention.


I'm not certain what it is you assume I would have done differently. The role Anders plays in the sequel was set by myself as well as by the writing team, prior to anyone writing him. Even if I had been the one to write him, he most certainly would not have been the witty fellow you remember from Awakening... he's changed, in some very substantial ways, and if you're mourning the fact that he's different I can safely say that's very much part of the point.

A successful character provokes strong reactions. So I would say Anders was quite successful even if I didn't approve of Jennifer's writing job on him-- which I very much do. I think she did a stellar job. While there's always some trepidation in seeing someone else touch your baby, I had no reservations once I saw how she handled him.

If you felt less connected to your followers, that's too bad. There could be many reasons for that, but if the requirement to someone feeling connected is having long, rambling conversations in the party camp... I can safely say that's unlikely to happen again. I could see front-loading the characters a bit more so players are more thoroughly introduced (as it was, a lot of the character interaction ended up in Act 2 quite by accident) but I have absolutely no intention of returning to the reams of expository dialogue as a replacement for character development anytime soon.


Well I don't think its so much Anders' personality change that bothers them, but more or less small things that add up. Anything from his basic speech patterns to his natural tendencies would probably feel more true to them coming from you, since you originated the character.

To them, someone else writing for Anders is probably like Stan Lee writing a Superman comic.

But personally, I don't really mind Anders' change. he has his moments where his old self shines and he is more matured now. Only thing about him that I don't particularly like is the voice actor change. Greg Ellis should have stayed his voice actor IMO. Anders had a much bigger role and more facetime than Cullen before and during DAII so that's the better part to have. But I doubt that's an area of the game you have much control of. :P

Edited by The Grey Nayr, 21 April 2011 - 04:36 AM.


#8
Brockololly

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cihimi wrote...

On the other hand, the writing might be so good that it made alot, and I mean a lot, of fans developed a deep-seated passionate hatred for Anders. Most were affected in such a ridiculous manner, they actually cheer with the option to kill Anders. I know I was. So you could say...that's how good the writing was.


Eh, I don't know about that so much- I didn't care for Anders in DA2 only because he came across as annoyingly one note and predictable, not to mention too much of a divergence from who he was in Awakening. He might as well have been a different character. And while that may be the point in having Anders pull a 180 from Awakening, the transition itself from the Awakening Anders the player saw last in Awakening to the DA2 mopey, one note Anders was not handled very well, which in part was my reason for not giving a crap about him. You didn't see any character development from Awakening Anders to DA2 its just shoved in your face from the onset with arguably the biggest thing to affect Anders having happened offscreen.

It wasn't any passionate hatred that led me to murder knife Anders- it was apathy. But I suppose, in part due to the limited interactions and lack of player initiated conversations that had any sense of agency, I'd echo the OP's sentiments to the extent that I really felt apathy towards most of the companions. You could have killed off most of them and at most it would have elicited a "Oh, thats too bad" and a shoulder shrug.

#9
_Aine_

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Bioware loves the Anders they produced in DA2 because he is exactly as they *planned* for him to be for DA2.

The writers see the end-result and all the steps between, and all we see is how we personally took those steps, for as far as we have made it down the story path. Those things alone change the experience I think. Even then it will be different for everyone.

Re: Rambling. I *do* miss less structure to the timing of the companion interaction, I think it is that very scheduled feel (to a large degree) that influences people's perceptions of the writing itself - it adds an unnatural filter on the experience ( unnatural, not unnecessary per se) . I don't think less *obvious* structure means more rambling though, just less able to be pre-determined by the player as to when you will get the opportunity to have the next discussion. Appearance/Illusion of random.... illusion of more casual conversation to add realism and depth as opposed to just talk for its own sake. I think those things really aid in feeling like you get to *know* your character rather than a tightly scheduled *reveal*.

Anders: I do wonder if he had the same voice actor, with the same inflection, whether it would have seemed less jarring...  inflection changes a lot that on paper looks fairly consistent...

Edited by shantisands, 21 April 2011 - 04:40 AM.


#10
David Gaider

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The Grey Nayr wrote...
Greg Ellis should have stayed his voice actor IMO. Anders had a much bigger role and more facetime than Cullen before and during DAII so that's the better part to have. But I doubt that's an area of the game you have much control of. :P


I do actually have a lot of say in voice actors, but in this case it was out of our control. Shenanigans meant we could only have Greg Ellis for a smaller role-- so Cullen it was. It didn't bother me on the whole, as I like Cullen and having both characters present was going to be an issue no matter what, but in this case it's simply how the cookie crumbled.

Edited by David Gaider, 21 April 2011 - 04:46 AM.


#11
mesmerizedish

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David Gaider wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Greg Ellis should have stayed his voice actor IMO. Anders had a much bigger role and more facetime than Cullen before and during DAII so that's the better part to have. But I doubt that's an area of the game you have much control of. :P


I do actually have a lot of say in voice actors, but in this case it was out of our control. Shenanigans meant we could only have Greg Ellis for a smaller role-- so Cullen it was. It didn't bother me on the whole, as I like Cullen and having both characters present was going to be an issue no matter what, but in this case it's simply how the cookie crumbled.


That's actually something I had wondered... if you had Greg Ellis, why couldn't he have stayed Anders? I'm embarrassed that it took until you said this to realize that, hey, maybe he wasn't game for a big role :pinched:

#12
Addai

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David Gaider wrote...
If you felt less connected to your followers, that's too bad. There could be many reasons for that, but if the requirement to someone feeling connected is having long, rambling conversations in the party camp... I can safely say that's unlikely to happen again. I could see front-loading the characters a bit more so players are more thoroughly introduced (as it was, a lot of the character interaction ended up in Act 2 quite by accident) but I have absolutely no intention of returning to the reams of expository dialogue as a replacement for character development anytime soon.

Curious.  You say that as if they are mutually exclusive, rather than complimentary.  I'd just as soon have Alistair explain something to me as read it in a codex or see a cinematic- scratch that, I would much prefer it.  Since he can also offer his own opinions on the subject matter, it works to personalize world and game information as well as give insight to the character.

I'm sad.  :(

#13
Maugrim

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Greg Ellis should have stayed his voice actor IMO. Anders had a much bigger role and more facetime than Cullen before and during DAII so that's the better part to have. But I doubt that's an area of the game you have much control of. :P


I do actually have a lot of say in voice actors, but in this case it was out of our control. Shenanigans meant we could only have Greg Ellis for a smaller role-- so Cullen it was. It didn't bother me on the whole, as I like Cullen and having both characters present was going to be an issue no matter what, but in this case it's simply how the cookie crumbled.


That's actually something I had wondered... if you had Greg Ellis, why couldn't he have stayed Anders? I'm embarrassed that it took until you said this to realize that, hey, maybe he wasn't game for a big role :pinched:


Looks like he might have been to busy chasing after his very own pirate captain played by Penelope Cruz seeing as he's in the cast of POTC: On Stranger Tides.  Can't say that I blame him. :happy:

#14
Miri1984

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I'd like to put in my two cents and say I adored what the writers and team did with Anders in DA2. I don't think I'm in the minority, even as someone who adored him in Awakenings. Everything that happened with his character in DA2 I saw as building on what we saw of him in Awakenings, and I applaud David Gaider and ESPECIALLY Jennifer Hepler, for doing such an amazing job.

#15
David Gaider

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Addai67 wrote...
Curious.  You say that as if they are mutually exclusive, rather than complimentary.  I'd just as soon have Alistair explain something to me as read it in a codex or see a cinematic- scratch that, I would much prefer it.  Since he can also offer his own opinions on the subject matter, it works to personalize world and game information as well as give insight to the character.


Yes, in a world where More is always Better there'd be no reason not to have it both ways. Lots of dialogues in camp, with expository dialogue about anything that strikes your fancy, initiated conversations out and about in the world and DA2's more detailed series of personal quests.

Considering, however, that a game like BG2 where people still felt plenty connected to party members even though you couldn't click on them at all and had no control over when they spoke to you, I'm not certain the issue here isn't one of expectation rather than execution. Not that execution couldn't improve, sure, but some people seem to equate lots of dialogue to emotional connection... and I'm not sure they're as connected as they seem to think.

#16
WhiteKnyght

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David Gaider wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Greg Ellis should have stayed his voice actor IMO. Anders had a much bigger role and more facetime than Cullen before and during DAII so that's the better part to have. But I doubt that's an area of the game you have much control of. :P


I do actually have a lot of say in voice actors, but in this case it was out of our control. Shenanigans meant we could only have Greg Ellis for a smaller role-- so Cullen it was. It didn't bother me on the whole, as I like Cullen and having both characters present was going to be an issue no matter what, but in this case it's simply how the cookie crumbled.


I see. I guess part of the reason it bothers me is because I don't like it when characters I like or am really used to hearing get a voice change. A good example would be when Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood got it's English dub. They recasted some voice actors, even for important characters like Alphonse Hohenheim and Scar.(Alphonse is sadly understandable cause Aaron Dismuke grew up and couldn't do the voice. But they did get a voice actor who does a pretty good imitation to take over.)

Also have you ever considered doing the voice of a character yourself?

Edited by The Grey Nayr, 21 April 2011 - 05:07 AM.


#17
David Gaider

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The Grey Nayr wrote...
Also have you ever considered doing the voice of a character yourself?


Sure, I tried my hand at VO. I think it's safe to say that being able to speak is as much an indicator of being able to do good voice acting as being able to compose a sentence is an indicator of being able to do good writing.

Edited by David Gaider, 21 April 2011 - 05:15 AM.


#18
WhiteKnyght

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David Gaider wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Also have you ever considered doing the voice of a character yourself?


Sure, I tried my hand at VO. I think it's safe to say that being able to speak is as much an indicator of being able to do good voice acting as being able to compose a sentence is an indicator of being able to do good writing.


I see. lol

So, how does casting go for these games? Do you sit with others, listen to auditions, and give your opinion, or do you have certain people in mind when the characters are being created and then give a list to higher ups?

#19
Midnight Voyager

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Addai67 wrote...
I'd just as soon have Alistair explain something to me as read it in a codex or see a cinematic- scratch that, I would much prefer it.  Since he can also offer his own opinions on the subject matter, it works to personalize world and game information as well as give insight to the character.

I'm sad.  :(


I... did not like information being exposited in the codex at all. Them popping up after conversations did not help. "Wait, what, Aveline's married, when did-?!"

Heck, I'd rather a companion just SAY IT than have to read it elsewhere. Seeing it happen isn't so bad, but... The codex exposit dump just did not work for me in any instance. I still felt like almost no time had passed, not many years, and absolutely nothing that happened in the interims had any impact on me.

...To be honest, the only one I can think of off-hand is Aveline's marriage, but I heard plenty of that in speech, too. DID anything happen? I felt like we all sat around, eating toast and not talking at all. Fenris's romance hit me there. "We haven't talked about it since that day" ...Annd not by my decision, just because I tardised ahead. If we didn't talk about that for three years, what DID we talk about? The weather?

Er, in short: Cinematic "see things happening and be there" is fine. Codex is... ennnh.

(...Unless you mean the cinematics of Varric just summarizing everything, in which case... Ehhhh)

Edited by Midnight Voyager, 21 April 2011 - 05:22 AM.


#20
mesmerizedish

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The Grey Nayr wrote...

I see. lol

So, how does casting go for these games? Do you sit with others, listen to auditions, and give your opinion, or do you have certain people in mind when the characters are being created and then give a list to higher ups?


Well, have you ever seen the episode of Spongebob Squarepants where Mr. Krabbs loses Spongebob to Plankton in a game of cards? And they sing a duet together about how much they need each other?

It's basically like that, except Mr. Gaider instead of Mr. Krabbs, and Eve Myles instead of Spongebob.

This is actually how it works. Fact.

#21
eleridragon

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I see. lol

So, how does casting go for these games? Do you sit with others, listen to auditions, and give your opinion, or do you have certain people in mind when the characters are being created and then give a list to higher ups?


Well, have you ever seen the episode of Spongebob Squarepants where Mr. Krabbs loses Spongebob to Plankton in a game of cards? And they sing a duet together about how much they need each other?

It's basically like that, except Mr. Gaider instead of Mr. Krabbs, and Eve Myles instead of Spongebob.

This is actually how it works. Fact.


*dies at mental image*

#22
TEWR

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I see. lol

So, how does casting go for these games? Do you sit with others, listen to auditions, and give your opinion, or do you have certain people in mind when the characters are being created and then give a list to higher ups?


Well, have you ever seen the episode of Spongebob Squarepants where Mr. Krabbs loses Spongebob to Plankton in a game of cards? And they sing a duet together about how much they need each other?

It's basically like that, except Mr. Gaider instead of Mr. Krabbs, and Eve Myles instead of Spongebob.

This is actually how it works. Fact.


Listen to Ishmael. Ishmael knew the romances were all bi way before anyone else outside of the devs knew. So pretty much anything Ishmael says is Word of God.


It even supercedes David Gaider!Posted Image

Edited by The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 April 2011 - 05:30 AM.


#23
mesmerizedish

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Listen to Ishmael. Ishmael knew the romances were all bi way before anyone else outside of the devs knew. So pretty much anything Ishmael says is Word of God.


It even supercedes David Gaider!Posted Image


I had Mr. Gaider signed up for "They're all bi!" when he posted in my betting pool thread, but Ryzaki made me take him down (the spoilsport).

#24
TEWR

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Listen to Ishmael. Ishmael knew the romances were all bi way before anyone else outside of the devs knew. So pretty much anything Ishmael says is Word of God.


It even supercedes David Gaider!Posted Image


I had Mr. Gaider signed up for "They're all bi!" when he posted in my betting pool thread, but Ryzaki made me take him down (the spoilsport).


Unfair advantage. You had it rigged! David Gaider is your source on the inside! he's been divulging secrets to you....

#25
The Angry One

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I see. lol

So, how does casting go for these games? Do you sit with others, listen to auditions, and give your opinion, or do you have certain people in mind when the characters are being created and then give a list to higher ups?


Well, have you ever seen the episode of Spongebob Squarepants where Mr. Krabbs loses Spongebob to Plankton in a game of cards? And they sing a duet together about how much they need each other?

It's basically like that, except Mr. Gaider instead of Mr. Krabbs, and Eve Myles instead of Spongebob.

This is actually how it works. Fact.


I should slap you.