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As Suspected, Kickstarter Confirmed For Episode 2 - Funding Too Low Otherwise. (self.shroudoftheavatar)

submitted by Commander_Titler

Your reward that you purchased was the ability to not pay for further episodes when they came out. When the new episodes come out you do not have to make any further purchases for access to that Episode (you will have the equivalent to a First Responder Pledge).

But please understand making a new episode will cost money and we do need a way to acquire additional funds to do that while still keeping the live service operational and adding content on a monthly basis so naturally another Kickstarter campaign is our current plan. However if we are incredibly successful and attract tons of users we may make enough money that we don't have to do that and then all this is moot and that would be awesome!

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/episode-2-kickstarter-value-for-all.62455/

Will they attract a tonne of users? Well as the above quote was kindly taken from a thread where the current users, having learnt NOTHING from the last 3 years, are discussing how they can get advantages from a kickstarter-on-top-of-a-kickstarter, I suspect not.

But ahah... I've just spotted the end game now.

If they "complete" Episode 1, but then the Episode 2 Kickstarter fails (which it likely will, most of us former backers won't this time) they've got the perfect way of simply ending support whilst simultaneously shifting blame onto the audience. Oh, they wanted to do it, but there's just not enough interest... They might also be able to escape the Kickstarter T&C for the next episode if it itself is a new Kickstarter.

Meanwhile, the warning signs they don't have enough money even now are piling up...

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[–]SheamusJasonWalsh 5 points6 points  (0 children)

They might also be able to escape the Kickstarter T&C for the next episode if it itself is a new Kickstarter.

How do they escape the terms where previous backers paid and were rewarded all episodes in the first Kickstarter? There was no mention in the first Kickstarter that the reward for EP2-5 was dependant on future Kickstarter campaigns.

[–]virtueavatar 3 points4 points  (19 children)

Let's drill this down (I'm not happy about this either, but i'm trying to stay objective and give the benefit of the doubt where appropriate).

The specific relevant wording in the Kickstarter was:

Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtue is the first of a 5 game series of full-length, stand-alone games (each using the same game system), referred to as Episodes 1 through 5. Estimated availability of Episode 1, Forsaken Virtues, is October 2014, with Episodes 2 through 5 estimated for subsequent yearly releases.

Starr said the higher pledges do still cover ep 2-5 when (if) they come out. They have not clarified what will happen if future kickstarters fail or if they don't get enough players to fund more episodes. There was talk about finding investors.

Assuming the worst case scenario and episode 2-5 just don't happen, funders essentially lose out. Portalarium is liable in reputation only - Kickstarters are inherently risky and the risk is on the pledgers.

It wasn't kosher that it wasn't crystal clear that more funding would be needed to actually produce eps 2-5 in the original kickstarter - it only says in the original kickstarter that pledging high to the first episode would give us access to the rest. They now claim this was always the intention and they are incredibly sorry if we misunderstood.

I'm trying to see this from the other side of things where writing up a kickstarter with all the necessary details might cause you to think of the big picture and miss details like clarifying that you're only selling Episode 1 here, with "future access when later funding comes". They simply might have been confident enough in the whole big picture pitch to think that we'd need to know that and might not have thought that they might get stuck at episode 2.

We still don't even know for sure that another kickstarter is their last resort to make those extra episodes. Very little has been said about this, and I'd appreciate hearing as much as possible from the devs about their side of the story.

[–]chancycat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Two random thoughts:

Portalarium was clearly over confident/naive/optimistic about Ep1's timeline: 2014 vs 2017 (current assertion). There are financial implications for staffing a game-dev effort for 3x longer than originally intended. Kickstarter campaign was structured around those original assumptions. Right or wrong (good faith attempt or outright fraud), they've needed a lot of money to keep development going. And they have. We argue over features of the game, quality and polish, but I think it is clear Portalarium has not just up and quit.

By Portaltarium's published stats they raised < $2M USD via the Ep1 Kickstarter campaign; and subsequently have raised $8.25M. That's a story in its own right. And explains continuing operations for the extended number of development years.

What an Ep2 would be comprised of, and what kind of development needed is TBD. New game engine? Probably not. New combat or crafting/economics? Probably not much. New story? Yes. Will play out for all of us to witness too.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 1 point2 points  (17 children)

If you watch my video review, you'll see I've already addressed it there; but to recap

  • Kickstarter's Handbook states:

"Your funding goal should be the minimum amount you need to make what you promised and fulfill all rewards. The first step to setting that goal is figuring out a budget. "

https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/funding

  • The page on Rewards makes clear this is referring to what we know in Shroud as Pledge Rewards;

"You’ll need to produce and deliver every reward, though, so think through each tier and make sure your budget works! "

https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/rewards

  • We previously discovered that not only had they NOT budgeted for many of the prior physical rewards until somewhere in 2015 (years after the kickstarter ended and the game was predicted to have been launched), but when they came to start publishing the Blade of The Avatar reward, they wanted to do a larger public run to make more money from extra sales, and blamed the publisher for insisting it have more chapters than the pdf version. Had they budgeted correctly they could have just said "We already have the money for run of X "Blade Of The Avatar" books, publish it or we'll go elsewhere." More likely, Portalarium were offering future sales in exchange for the money they didn't have available, or they both agreed on the desirability of getting the public to pay for the book twice to have the now more-complete version... so you get "Sword of Midras" now instead.

Technically the pledge has been honoured, you got "Blade of the Avatar". Only if you thought you were getting the complete novel, well...

  • Meanwhile, Episode 2 was one of the original rewards too. It has to be honoured. As should be obvious from the previous example though, I suspect last minute chicanery to get out of that. If you call it "Episode 2" on the forums, if you fund raise with the claim it's for "Episode 2", so all your backers don't get too alarmed... but launch the Kickstarter under the name "Horse Of The Avatar" (rideable mounts supposedly were pushed back to Ep.2) well... it's not technically Episode 2, is it? You didn't call it that on Kickstarter, sooooo...

So instead you can just cram a new plot line into the game when it's obvious you're going to go no further, call THAT EP.2 instead, say you've honoured all your commitments and run off. Assuming at least a BASIC level of honesty, anyway.

I'm not saying the Devs are planning this. Well, maybe whoever the one responsible for this horrendous Atlas Shrugs Simulator funding model is, actually... But I think the programmers are just desperately trying to buy a little more time to save a labour they genuinely have loved.

I honestly think what will happen though is they'll just run into an inescapable financial pit eventually, and you won't even get the theoretical cop-out text-quest based Episodes 2-5. Which is a bit of a bugger, because one of the first things they changed from the Kickstarter was Peer to Peer networking, as they thought the big money was in MMO games.

So when it all falls apart at Portalarium, so will the world they built, because it's centrally hosted now. Will they let fansites take it over and host a core server? I don't know if that's even possible. But a decent-hearted dev would at least try.

You'll have to blindfold which ever Dev led to this ungodly Objectivist mess, put them on the back of a donkey like in Mad Max 3, and send them far, far away into the deserts of Texas first though... lest they try and sell the central servers to the same old Whales too.

So keep a close eye on how that Ep.2 Kickstarter is set up. It'll tell you where Portalarium thinks they are with regards to the end game, and whose grubby fingers are on the scales still.

[–]virtueavatar 0 points1 point  (7 children)

I don't feel like anyone can make any real sense of what's going on by being angry and cynical with every expectation that hasn't come to pass.

I just had a look again at the Kickstarter campaign for peer to peer; I don't see a mention of that. I assume you're referring to this:

Though Shroud of the Avatar won’t be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, it will be a multiplayer game.

Have the devs been asked about this directly and/or responded? I honestly have little stake in that because I loved UO and prefer an MMO for this. I've got no stake in the book either - although from what I hear of that, the extra chapters are more like an epilogue, and from what I heard, it sounds like they felt like they got screwed in their deal with the publisher. I might be wrong on this since I haven't been paying this a huge amount of attention.

[–]SheamusJasonWalsh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I just had a look again at the Kickstarter campaign for peer to peer; I don't see a mention of that. I assume you're referring to this

It was clear mate that from all early hangouts that the game was fully intended to be P2P. The mechanics of it were talked about at length until they gave up trying to make it work. Information about this can be found in any early hangout or chat log where they talk about the game. You might not be able to find the point publically where they put the idea in the rubbish though. If you have Dev+ access then go fish mate it is in there.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Orrrr.... you could simply do a Google search for "Shroud of the Avatar Peer to Peer" and see how many hits come up, including the Kickstarter Updates.

Portalarium are very, very good at sounding like all things to all people; but they announced the switch from P2P to centrally hosted in Jan 2014 as they weren't able to get it to work.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/dev-hangout-recap-multiplayer-in-shroud-of-the-avatar.7023/

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/pc-gaming-382/%5Bgaming%5D-shroud-avatar-forsaken-virtues-4491128.html (Link has video of hangout if you require more proof)

Honestly, I was there from Kickstarter. Were you? If many of us are "angry and cynical", it's not because we're less virtuous... it's because we seem to know and remember a lot more than you about what was claimed, then promised, then sacrificed in the name of Agile Development or outright cash grabbing.

[–]virtueavatar 0 points1 point  (4 children)

I was there from the Kickstarter.

[–]rune_74 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Funny so was I....I Was a huge supporter. Weird how things change;)

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Then why can't you recall the game was originally going to be Peer to Peer? I'm not getting at you, it's a serious question; if we can't establish a base line of objective facts, there's not even any point attempting to communicate.

From my perspective, the remaining backers are literally living in an imaginary world that exists outside nowhere but inside of their need to continue being positive about the game; Look at the Steam forums right now in fact. You have people constantly abusing me about figures they literally make up, and trying to mock me for claiming that the game has few individuals involved... when I publish the actual figures myself, and I have to say "You've read them, right? You know we can cross check this?"... and it turns out that yes, the figures actually make the argument they were just mocking! There were only 38 donors at an average of $5000 or so which made up the entire recent telethon.

So how, if you don't remember or don't want to look at how the game has objectively changed, and how it actually feels for non-backers now, can you turn those unbelievably low figures around?

Which you're going to have to do to save the game. I would like, one day, for it to be the game we all dreamed of; I want to be able to actually PLAY the Shroud you defenders see in your eyes when you look at it.

That's not the Shroud we actually get though.

[–]virtueavatar 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I always looked at SotA as basically a UO2 with single player elements. Multiplayer peer to peer seems like an in-between option, and I honestly don't care about it. I feel like anything I'd want in a peer to peer game, I'd get a better experience with in an MMO format (unless you just don't want other people around). PvP might be an issue, but my preference there is to include UO-like PvP rather than the WoW-like PvP that we're getting. I'd even prefer to be able to PvP on the overworld map. So the fact we're not getting peer to peer has never been a concern for me; I feel like we might even be better off without it. Yesterday I looked at the kickstarter campaign's wording and didn't find it.

I just did a google search for shroud of the avatar peer to peer and didn't get any real results; a comment here or there by people talking about it; nothing official. I mean if you tell me they were going to include it, I believe you (why would you make it up), but I don't see where they specifically mentioned it.

The Dame Lori thread you linked does seem to be an official mention (I didn't go back to listen to the hangout; I assume the information is correct), but the replies seem be in support of the move. Umbrae's post specifically says "Loved Chris' response to P2P stuff." and that post has a few Likes on it. At a glance I don't see any negative posts about the lack of peer to peer.

Maybe the best way to address this whole thing is to create a list of what they said they'd do, and link to where they talked about each point? My guess is that a lot of things just have an explanation.

One last thing I'll add here - if I keep getting downvoted for putting down my perspective, I'm inclined to bow out of the conversation. Bit sick of that; these posts require a fair bit of time and my only interest is getting closer to the truth on the whole thing.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll respond in the morning (for me) with links, but just to quickly say that both sides get the issue with votes; there are brigades voting down all perspectives. It's another reason why I dislike the game now, there's more interest in driving people out of the community than there is working to make the game better.

And quickly on the early design; you'll need to look at what Lord British was saying in 2013 to 2014, but the original plan was Peer to Peer, and Open Modification, something like Skyrim where the player was going to be able to customise it to their wishes. You can't really do that with closed central servers, but as mentioned they couldn't get it to work with the Unity engine they'd chosen so they dropped the idea. The lack of massive open lands are the same reason, as is the inability of cave terrain to double back on itself ... Unity can't handle either well.

What you're seeing with people liking the idea of abandoning of it though is the problem Shroud has had all along; it promised one thing, but has been guided by the high end backers into something quite different. It really does bear no relationship to what it was Kickstarted as at all now; A game you could play with friends but the focus was on deep single player content like the early Ultimas.

And they've been disappointed too. Anyway, sleep now, links tomorrow!

[–]ElvisNixon 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Technically the pledge has been honoured, you got "Blade of the Avatar". Only if you thought you were getting the complete novel, well...

I was disappointed by this. I hoped that we would get the additional four chapters. But I accept the explanation which was the publisher required the additional content in order publish it. I hope that the published book earns them money and that is a source of funding beyond players.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] -1 points0 points  (7 children)

Yes, if I seem "obsessed" it's because I can't stand to see decent people taken advantage of. When they ran the original kickstarter, they should have planned to honor this moral commitment to you. They didn't; either through financial incompetence or worse, the idea that you'll continue to accept further exploitation as long as it's explained in terms of being good for the game... so they spend the money from your prior pledges to keep raising money on new pledges that they also don't have to honor because they can move on to a new pledge...

Whilst Player Owned Towns take up all of the graphics artists time and the world map we all share stagnates.

[–]ElvisNixon 0 points1 point  (6 children)

I guess that's the crux of it. I don't feel taken advantage of. I think the spirit of any kickstarter is aspirational. I agreed to pay them money hoping they will be able to accomplish their vision of the project knowing that things change, projects are hard and it might fail. I got an ancestor pledge and if that money meant much to me financially I wouldn't have. If they took my money and didn't try I would feel ripped off but to me that clearly isn't the case. I'd agree that we don't have a finished polished game to play right now. I really hope it gets there. If it doesn't I still won't feel ripped off.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Which is a fair enough perspective; but they have played fast and loose with pledges and rewards too, and those are not donations but contracts Portalarium committed to honouring.

There's absolutely no reason people should have lost the rewards available in higher tiers when they first signed up, for instance, and created a third tier of backer levels, because the upgrade path was part of the pledge system at the time the money was given. They started chipping away at the rewards only to try and pressure people into upgrading before they were arbitrarily gone.

There was no reason they should have double-dipped people for the Book that they'd already pledged to get; backers should have able to rely on Portalarium to give them the complete lore they expected.

There was no reason why the Land Rush has to be permanent, indeed as late as July 2016 the FAQ stated they expected to open it up the day after the final placement. But the only way to get Lots is via the Lottery; and they're doing it to keep backers who are sitting on Lots they desperately want to sell happy; but they can only sell to new players in turn who aren't coming into the game because they want to be able to buy from NPCs...

There was no reason that the art work and gameplay of the Overland should have been delayed for over a year to work on Player Owned Towns. You've already got their money, they'll be patient, and you're making every other Backer wait... for the good of the game you should have got the basic game working and brought more players in!

No, you may not feel ripped off; but can't you see that there's very legitimate reasons why many, many will?

[–]ElvisNixon 0 points1 point  (4 children)

those are not donations but contracts

How I see kickstarter is that it is a donation to make something happen. That's the spirit of it and I feel kickstarter at least originally made that clear let alone Port. You might be right that the add-on store is less clear. I'm not sure. I liken it to contributing to PBS (Public Broadcasting Service in case you're not in the US). They ask for money and give token gifts. You don't do it to get the gift. You give $100 to empower them and don't really care if the tote bag sucks.

I agree that there should ways to acquire property in game from NPC. I think that it'll eventually get there though prime locations will be player to player transactions. As I understand it the raffle is to slow the 1% down a bit. If they sold them by NPC people with 2 million gold would buy them all up.

Overland should have been delayed for over a year to work on Player Owned Towns

As I understand it they needed to make the art for houses and towns etc. for the game anyway, right? So they sold assets they were building anyway for a lot of money. Maybe I'm naive but I still trust that money is pumped into game dev not their pockets.

I get that it's been a long time and it's still not a polished game and that sucks. And there's bunch of things I think they should have done differently. Like I think releasing once a month is too much extra overhead. I think there were too many pledge rewards and tiers. I wish they kept the start around Owls Head and really polished that area up before building more land out. The entry level areas should have been balanced before persistence. I'd like to see roving encounters and town sieges since they sound cool and they've talked about them for years. In general I think everyone would be happier if they completed a small game faster and then continued to add to it.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

As I understand it they needed to make the art for houses and towns etc. for the game anyway, right? So they sold assets they were building anyway for a lot of money. Maybe I'm naive but I still trust that money is pumped into game dev not their pockets.

No, I'm afraid you're being naive; they aren't designing assets that can be used in the rest of the world. They are literally giving private artist time for the owner of the town at the expense of the game.

http://sotawiki.net/sota/Community:Towns

The first type, player customisable templates are using code expressly designed for them. We asked to allow the ability to slide the placement of our own homes around on our lot; Instead it was added into a Stretch Goal.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=40715

The stretch goals all failed, and were eventually cancelled. However the ability to move not just homes but the entire structure including the lots itself was added in for Player Owned Towns. There is no reason that the wider players can't have them, except it upsets the kind of people who want their thousand dollar purchases to be as special as possible.

So working code in game is denied to you.

And secondly, for the "Custom Static PoTs (these) will be customized versions of the templates based on player design requests"

It's this that Darkstarr and the graphics artist are referring too when they talk in the telethon, and I quote for you in my video review, about taking the artist away from overworld map work to work on PoTs. They are literally ignoring the main game to sit and tweak the graphical appearance of Player Owned Towns one by one.

This isn't new, we suspected they were doing this as far back as they were first announced over a year ago. Do a google for "Shroud Avatar Player Owned Towns delaying the game" and you'll find the first link is likely the Forums That Naming Gets You Banned in June 2015 predicting this would happen. It's only now, with the community so small and so completely undiscerning that the Devs are outright admitting it and joking about it online.

Again, watch my video. They state it directly, no conspiracy theory, Darkstarr tells you he's sequestered the artist onto PoTs and can't work the overland until those are done.

So a year wasted... how many more do you want them to waste? When are people going to stop saying "it's ok to waste our money" and demand they prioritise the game over the kind of appalling people you can see here and on Steam?

[–]ElvisNixon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

They are literally giving private artist time for the owner of the town at the expense of the game.

Did you see this? https://youtu.be/tqCegd4rIbE?t=4205

Not sure if it's in direct response to you or not.

The only way to further prove or disprove it that I can think of would be to go through all the stand up notes to try and figure out the level of effort. And that sounds like a lot of work.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It may be, it's 2 days after my video review, and I do believe some of the Devs at least try and read criticism... I'll add it to my own review comments and let people make up their own mind.

But my own view is, even if that is true (and we've been hearing these kind of walk backs for years) it's still the case that the overland map doesn't have any of the visible random encounters, active sieges etc we were promised, whilst it does have 230 PoTs on it which the fast travel is directly linked. You can't avoid seeing them, whilst the things that ambush you do so completely invisibly.

So whatever the reality as you see it, what we the standard player gets is still pretty sloppy.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just to add; Here's the video link just before the quote I refer to...

https://youtu.be/vjP8pz6VSNQ?t=2730

Notice I compliment the skybox, despite people who won't even watch the video claiming I refuse to ever give any positive comments or useful feedback, I comment that the sea still looks awful though and the skyline is ruined by expressions of unachievable class distinction... and then you get the quote.

Is that an unfair quote to use? I used most of the relevant discussion, it's not edited except before and after to take out the other 11 hours of telethon.

And what makes the current collapse in community decency so galling is that honest people just trying to share the truth are treated to witch hunts and abuse and just shameless lying and laziness... for what? Trying to warn people of where the game still currently is, and is going?

[–]ElvisNixon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I felt like this was obvious from the original kickstarter.

[–]digriz602 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was already promised 1-5 for originally backing the game, what if they dont meet this kickstarter? Smells like a large turd of a game I backed. The games so bad, it cant support itself. So much for it being a 'game changer' or innovative. I guess if anying Mr Garriot will never make another game again.

[–]Zaranazer 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Troubling news, as I can't see them attracting a lot of new people. Some but not a lot, seeing as this is a pretty niche game. But they also need money and people to play, and if there's not the kind of interest to warrant continue development after a while, well tough luck for us. That's just reality people. Kickstarter is supporting an idea, the amount of entitlement and misconception about it, is absolutely astonishing.

[–]rune_74 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, why should we expect them to honer or even look at their kickstarter page anymore;)

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Er... no again, Kickstarter rewards at launch are a commitment. When you make a Kickstarter you pledge to honor all the detailed rewards. Why are people still trying to argue this? It says so right on their page. Everything beyond that is aspirational; you may not be able to make a drone that can perform to hoped for spec, for instance, but you are still expected to at least produce one that can fly, that meets rational expectations, and that you deliver it to customers.

Do you know what I find sickening? It's people who throw buzzwords like "entitlement" around as if the last hundred years of customer rights legislation are now null and void because the law hasn't yet caught up with the modern world and the ways it commits old abuses in new ways; just because many, many companies have been able to take the money and just run doesn't mean that it's right... And customers aren't under a misconception because they get scammed... Your being confused doesn't give me legal carte-blanche to lie to you. The crime is still mine, not yours.

Furthermore, if critics aren't "entitled" to criticize... how exactly DOES the consumer make an informed choice in the first place? The current insane self-association of some gamers with gaming companies, as if they were your friends, is far more likely to cause "misconception" than dealing with them as they once were, businesses who have to earn their trust and not squander it with dubious or just plain bad decisions.

"That's just reality people"? It's only by creating an alternative reality, whereby funding is based upon hyper-invested backers who witch hunt critics that Shroud hasn't had the plug pulled a year ago. EA may have been evil... but they still brought us Ultima 7 and Ultima Online by cracking the whip and saying "No Origin, you do have to ship content by some deadline, focus and get to work". Sometimes there really is a lesser evil.

[–]virtueavatar -1 points0 points  (7 children)

you sound overjoyed

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Saddened more than anything else...

You know, I originally upgraded to an Ancestor Pledge in part because I really wanted to be a part of this game; I was going to put my original Ultima IV character's name from 1989 on the gravestone. I'd used the same name in almost every single RPG I'd played in the decades since my first Ultima and up to Shroud, and I thought it would be a nice thing to let him finally rest forever in the "spiritual successor".

Have they even got around to requesting the names for the pledge gravestones though? Or is this just another promise delayed or watered down or just outright abandoned to prioritise squeezing the few remaining players for more recent donations?

Had I still got an Ancestor account, this would probably be yet another needle under the fingernails about how second class you were outside the core of Ultra-Whales. But I long ago gave up even on this dream, along with all the rest.

So yes... saddened. Sickened too of course, by the greed and the whining childish hatemongery that passes for much of the community debate, especially on Steam these days. And that even now, the only way out of the crunch the Devs can see is repeating the same appeals to the same sort of horrendous people who have choked the game to death with their demands...

I just wish the end would come quicker, and the 38 people who made up the entire total of the last telethon would put themselves, and us, out of our misery. But when they'll keep throwing money in, no matter how small the playerbase is or how often the Devs admit they've cocked up the finances, it's going to drag on and on and on...

Just be aware of all of this before you think about getting aboard the misery-train.

[–]virtueavatar -1 points0 points  (4 children)

Have they even got around to requesting the names for the pledge gravestones though? Or is this just another promise delayed or watered down or just outright abandoned to prioritise squeezing the few remaining players for more recent donations?

It's obviously delayed, like the rest of the game.

The game hasn't launched; there's no reason to think this has just been abandoned.

Names on tombstones can safely be low priority - I am pretty sure there is 100 other things that need to be worked on first.

[–]Vagabond_Sam 1 point2 points  (2 children)

The game hasn't launched;

Nomenclature is tricky when a product is monetised as a live game.

SOTA is incomplete, with a 'complete store front'.

You can't have your cake and eat it to, or put plainly

You cannot commercialise your product at an early point of development and also claim criticism is premature.

Traditional publishers don't keep throwing money at stalled projects. They ask for concrete steps on how the team will address delays and prioritise the pitched game, and drop them if the plan isn't worth taking the additional risk.

Now, ahving said that, I have read much of /u/Commander_Titler's posts in various forums.

Where he is harsh, he is accurate. Portalarium need to think very carefully about his feedback and the feedback in the many negative reviews if they wish to even get to the point of having a feasable kickstarter.

Right now they posses professional arrogance that because they are 'in the industry' they assume they know what their prospective customers want, rather then actually listening to what we want.

Key word is prospective because the current customer base is far too insular and self interested to promote a robust and diverse community which is way makes great sandboxes, great.

[–]virtueavatar -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Of course you can commercialise your game at an early point of development. That's what Early Access is. The "criticism" in that specific point is that gravestone names haven't been handed out yet.

It it fair to say that A is done, B is being worked on, C is not yet done. You can't then complain that C isn't being done and won't get done.

As far as the add-on store goes - I assume this is what you're talking about - it seems to be working to raise more funds (albeit not enough for another episode), otherwise people just wouldn't buy anything. If that's the case, great. Not worth criticising them over.

I've never seen a case where Portalarium doesn't seem to be considering feedback, and in fact seen more of the opposite - that the whole issue with too hard of a focus on housing is because they've been considering the feedback too much, which they've started dialing back on. My pledge doesn't cover a house, though I suspect they never expected housing would become such a problem with so many high level pledges (they were expensive and a lot of people seemed happy to drop hundreds to thousands on the game for 1-4 houses).

[–]Vagabond_Sam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It it fair to say that A is done, B is being worked on, C is not yet done. You can't then complain that C isn't being done and won't get done.

I think criticism of the gravestones is fair when we have star citizen housing for sale which in you analogy of A, B or C being done would be wayyyyy after where gravestones should have been in terms of good faith fulfilment of the 2013 campaign.

This is why dismissing criticism like this in particular is not valid at this point. Portalarium have delivered so many monetised items while pledge rewards remain unfulfilled.

As for the focus on housing being a result of what the majority wanted and Portalarium listening to that.

I contend thats only true if you consider pleges in $$$ value, not per person.

More people want better story implementation, better combat and better scenes yet we have artists that were moved off onto POTs for unconscionable amounts of time given home many cloned scenes we have on post wipe status.

I wish Portalarium all the success in the world and I want to still be enjoying the game for a long time, but I will not, based off that desire, let slide the mismanagement of player faith go without being aired in a hope they adjust their trajectory

[–]Commander_Titler[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Like Unity packages, say?

And why is honouring your backer deeds BEFORE selling even more the moral way to fundraise? Or even an efficient one, considering the telethons now only have 38 people active in them?

And why is putting gameplay and actual game world behind private support for Player Owned Towns a good thing?

Do you actually KNOW much about how delayed Kickstarters actually often shake out? Have a read of this webpage, and tell us why you are convinced the same warning signs shouldn't apply to Portalarium.

http://kickscammed.com/

[–]SheamusJasonWalsh 7 points8 points  (0 children)

How do you feel about being lied to mate? About being sold one thing and getting another all while you're being lied to from a bunch of dancing smiling clowns?

[–]BluntedJ -3 points-2 points  (27 children)

You seem to have picked up Rune's slack.

[–]SheamusJasonWalsh 5 points6 points  (14 children)

Put down the kool-aid sir and step away from the developers.

[–]BluntedJ 2 points3 points  (13 children)

I dislike Kool-Aid. I am simply pointing out that this post is similar to the post of Rune: Repost a forum post, and then act like the forum post is fact, and then, through loose supposition, try and support an argument based on acting like a forum post is fact. There is something suspicious about the posts. In my estimation, it looks like Rune has a) bowed out of this Reddit, then b) created a new "alt" in order to continue posting.

For my part, if I was going to do that, I would put a little more effort in disguising myself. But then again, it is supposedly a valid method to do that and then deny it when it is pointed out. I am probably wrong, but then you have to ask: Who is drinking who's Kool-Aid?

I have no problem with debate. The game is under construction, but it has essentially launched. There are definitely problems with the game. If it goes under, it goes under. If not, then not. But don't try to come here and then agree with a re-post as if it is fact, that just makes no sense.

And ad hominem attacks only show the weakness in an argument. They do not lend support to a debate. If you are going to debate, then debate....

[–]SheamusJasonWalsh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Good points mate except for some of the alternate poster stuff. Cant say beyond doubt they arent the same old git but their points and writing are very different. Also two quite different accounts on Steam.

[–]rune_74 1 point2 points  (4 children)

If you were paying attention you would notice I have posted a few posts since I decided dealing with people like you was just not worth it. I have never seen a game that has garnered such a cult like following that they lash out at anyone questioning the messiah. Doxx attacks and made up facts are the weapons the faithful use.

This kickstarter is a trevesty. I won't lie I will do everything in my power to show others how badly they lied in the first kickstarter. It's a joke how anyone can be ok with this.

The funny thing here is I don't hide who I am, though you do. I don't need an alt to discuss how I feel.

You know, you just couldn't leave well enough alone, I was happy just reading stuff with a comment here and there. Unbelievable how much you Shroudians can piss people off.

[–]BluntedJ 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You won the internet.

[–]rune_74 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Congratz I guess? Not sure your point, but I guess I get your attention?

[–]Zaranazer -1 points0 points  (1 child)

And I have rarely seen anyone so bitter, spend so much time on a game he obviously does not like, using his words carefully to mask his distaste for sota, "cleverly" taking digs at them without anyone noticing. But your mask is falling, your true self is cracking through. How are your actions even remotely logical, spending HUGE portion of your time, talking about sota. Now that is truly pathetic and a goddamn waste of YOOOOOOUR time.

Oh and a kickstarter is supporting an IDEA, if it becomes reality or even half reality GREAT. If not you have absolutely NOOOOOOO fucking reason to feel entitled and that you are owed anything, at no point after supporting a kickstarter you should ever feel that. Zero, zilck, nada. nope never ever ever in any universe. If you think that you are either a entitled little child, or you do not understand what a kickstarter is.

[–]rune_74 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are a waste of my time, you are quite right in that. I do have a high distaste for how they did this project, didn't know I was hiding it. Why would I ever be mad at these guys: https://www.reddit.com/r/shroudoftheavatar/comments/52qzng/banning_info_as_asked_for/ I was done but shroudains like you decided to insult me again. Pathetic, can't even use your forum name here can you? Keep hiding kid.

EDIT: Nice stealth edit, that's how you do things. You absolutely have the right to expect them to hold up their end of the kickstarter, matter of fact that is the rules. You may want to stop posting if you are going to post this crap, you are embarrassing yourself.

Here I will help you: https://www.kickstarter.com/rules?ref=faq-basics_whatfor

[–]Commander_Titler[S] -1 points0 points  (6 children)

Why you do think you deserve anything better than Ad-hominem, when you're too damn lazy to actually fact check beyond your own assumptions?

Since when does Rune_74 live in England, post with a British Accent, AND STILL HAVE ACCESS TO THE GAME TO BE ABLE TO PLAY IT ONLINE LIKE I DO IN MY VIDEO REVIEW?

You could have learned all of that, and my old user name on the Shroud forums, in under a minute of watching my video review. Because I've gone out of my way to be open about who I am, my prior support for and now intense dislike for the game.

Rune is also banned from Steam. I'm not. What is my user name on Steam? You can see me posting there too; it's not like I don't openly link those two either.

BluntedJ, when you're just so obviously lazy and terrible why do you think people don't respect you? Maybe work on being less terrible first?

[–]BluntedJ 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Well, I am sorry for "assuming" that you and Rune were the same - you know, it's my fault since it's the internet and NO ONE ON THE INTERNET creates separate accounts and stuff and your OP had a similar style to Rune who said he was leaving Reddit only to pull a Michael Jordan.

You NOW reference a video review you did, but please tell me where in your OP does it say that:

Your reward that you purchased was the ability to not pay for further episodes when they came out. When the new episodes come out you do not have to make any further purchases for access to that Episode (you will have the equivalent to a First Responder Pledge).

But please understand making a new episode will cost money and we do need a way to acquire additional funds to do that while still keeping the live service operational and adding content on a monthly basis so naturally another Kickstarter campaign is our current plan. However if we are incredibly successful and attract tons of users we may make enough money that we don't have to do that and then all this is moot and that would be awesome!

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/episode-2-kickstarter-value-for-all.62455/

Will they attract a tonne of users? Well as the above quote was kindly taken from a thread where the current users, having learnt NOTHING from the last 3 years, are discussing how they can get advantages from a kickstarter-on-top-of-a-kickstarter, I suspect not.

But ahah... I've just spotted the end game now.

If they "complete" Episode 1, but then the Episode 2 Kickstarter fails (which it likely will, most of us former backers won't this time) they've got the perfect way of simply ending support whilst simultaneously shifting blame onto the audience. Oh, they wanted to do it, but there's just not enough interest... They might also be able to escape the Kickstarter T&C for the next episode if it itself is a new Kickstarter.

Meanwhile, the warning signs they don't have enough money even now are piling up...

I had to quote it so someone doesn't come along, hack your account, and then insert the link in the post to your video review, then say (using your account here) that the link was posted in the OP, then claim I am some moron for not seeing it.

And just in case that same person who hacks your account alters the post I am now replying to:

Why you do think you deserve anything better than Ad-hominem, when you're too damn lazy to actually fact check beyond your own assumptions?

Since when does Rune_74 live in England, post with a British Accent, AND STILL HAVE ACCESS TO THE GAME TO BE ABLE TO PLAY IT ONLINE LIKE I DO IN MY VIDEO REVIEW?

You could have learned all of that, and my old user name on the Shroud forums, in under a minute of watching my video review. Because I've gone out of my way to be open about who I am, my prior support for and now intense dislike for the game.

Rune is also banned from Steam. I'm not. What is my user name on Steam? You can see me posting there too; it's not like I don't openly link those two either.

BluntedJ, when you're just so obviously lazy and terrible why do you think people don't respect you? Maybe work on being less terrible first?

I apologize profusely for having an opinion that differs from your own. Please forgive me. I promise not to do it again. And I promise also from now on to do research for the people that post on their own posts, because, you know, it's the internet and we should all research everything so that everyone's opinions match and stuff. If you would like me to say any other words of apologies, please just ask. I am willing to submit to your will.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

"Well, I am sorry for "assuming" that you and Rune were the same - you know, it's my fault since it's the internet and NO ONE ON THE INTERNET creates separate accounts and stuff and your OP had a similar style to Rune who said he was leaving Reddit only to pull a Michael Jordan.

You NOW reference a video review you did, but please tell me where in your OP does it say that:"

Yes, it's your fault; Lots of people make troll accounts. Don't you think a decent person would cross check the facts though, before mouthing off about someone being one? Apparently you don't, with your childish passive-aggressive attempts to claim ignorance is a virtue, and transparent attempts to try and bait people into getting banned.

Real class act here folks.

And now I reference a video? It's here on Reddit under my user name, and on the Steam forums under my user name there. Don't blame anyone else for your being damn lazy to bother looking at what perspective and from whom the criticism was coming from.

"where in the OP does it say..."?

Your quote IS the OP on this thread. Which was posted by ME. Do you see how my name is in Blue Bold further down the tread? That's an indicator on this subforum of who the Original Poster is when they reply. Some sub forums make it a solid block, here's it's just the bold. But you could have checked by just scrolling up to the top of the page and checking the name matches.

If you're trying to say where in my video it says that, well it didn't at the time, as I'd not yet learned about the new Kickstarter plans. So guess what... the financial situation was even worse than I was aware of. Um, yay Portalarium I guess?

Fortunately when I became aware of it, I posted it here for the public too. Or Rune_74 did. Something like that anyway.

I had to quote it so someone doesn't come along, hack your account, and then insert the link in the post to your video review, then say (using your account here) that the link was posted in the OP, then claim I am some moron for not seeing it.

Do you think I'm worried about saying that under my own user name, especially when you ask me to say it? I hardly need too, you've already proven the thing you're trying to tempt people into saying.

So here's a re-statement of facts; BluntedJ admits he is a moron.

I don't need to put it under my video review thread because you haven't yet been so ridiculous there... not surprising since you didn't even seem to know it existed until now. But if you do, don't worry, I'll be sure to let everyone know just the kind of quality of "debate" being thrown at anyone who criticises the game is...

And just in case that same person who hacks your account alters the post I am now replying to:

Good lord, you lot do such a great example of proving what immoral dregs you are. They tried the "you edit your posts" on Steam too. Doesn't work there either. Because some of us have values and virtues that don't slip and slide around to serve our own self interest. Who is going to edit their post here either? I mean what I say. Yes, in your own words, you acted like a moron just because people can see the flaws in a computer game you love blindly.

And I promise also from now on to do research for the people that post on their own posts, because, you know, it's the internet and we should all research everything so that everyone's opinions match and stuff. If you would like me to say any other words of apologies, please just ask. I am willing to submit to your will.

"Do the research for people who post on their own posts"? What does that even mean? Firstly, I did the research in this post for you. Do you mean research whether everyone is the same person your Blunted state makes you fear they are? None of us were bothered about that because we didn't imagine anyone would be so ridiculous.

But yeah, you should do some basic research if you're going to claim to be smarter or more moral than other people, you hypocritical ass. You don't have to agree with anyone, but just because it's the internet it doesn't excuse you for being dumb, especially when real people have to risk putting real money on whether you or I are more accurate.

As for an apology... You aren't that important to me to even need one. I'm just making sure no one else has their innocence sullied and their wallet raped by being taken in by the lies spread by scammers, and ignorant claims by donkeys who don't do their research. You personally can disappear for all I care, or continue screaming like the increasingly unhinged community as it becomes obvious the end is coming in sight. As long as I get more good people into the liferafts before that day comes, go ahead and drown with the Shroud Sinking Ship in the unconcerned state you claim to be in for all I care.

[–]BluntedJ 1 point2 points  (3 children)

You also win the internet. Kudos.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Copy and paste from elsewhere; damn right I win with laziness like that ;)

[–]BluntedJ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The thing is man, it's really not worth the time to go point by point with you. You totally misread the whole thing about the video review. You mentioned before that I should have known you were not Rune with that video review you did. And so I looked in THIS whole thread for where you posted the video review.

See, I was not saying that you did not put the info about the second Kickstarter in your review. I was not trying to say you were going to edit that in or any other such thing. That was your fault for misinterpreting.

Hence, you win. No laziness. Just not worth the trouble because you are a little emotional right now and, well, it's better to just gracefully bow out. Doesn't mean I am better or smarter than you. Again, I'd rather just play the game.

[–]Commander_Titler[S] -1 points0 points  (11 children)

You seem to have become glued to Portalarium's sack.

See how easy your level of debate is? Of course, you would like to drive all critics away like you try to drive Rune_74 away... but that isn't going to push away the problems Shroud has. Care to post comments with some actual content to help in either direction, maybe?

[–]BluntedJ 2 points3 points  (10 children)

You can only reply with ad hominem attacks, which shows the level of your debate.

My point was valid. In fact, what I was actually meaning to say is that it is likely that you are Rune. It's the same style of arguments. Taking bits of what is said on the forum, posting them here, then making wild accusations with little more than loosely supported supposition (like saying I am tied to Port's "sack").

I like the game. I am not tied to anyone. I understand that it is "still under construction" and I understand they have basically "launched". But I am still willing to play the game because it gives me a bit of what all others don't: freedom to choose how I play, what I play, and when I play.

I am not driving any critics away. If you want to criticize and debate, then fine. But re-posting stuff as if it is gospel is just a weak way of getting out your frustrations. You want to debate, then debate. Regurgitating forum posts is not debating.

[–]rune_74 0 points1 point  (3 children)

You are pathetic, please show one post I made a "wild accusation".

Take the one attacking Lord Darkmoon(an accepted practice by shroudians) Bet that was all in my head. Problem is the game attracts people like you and honestly I can't stand people like that. I'm not Commander Titler, obviously. You could go figure that out if you weren't so out to lunch and making wild accusations.

I am so pissed off that Portalarium has cast me in this light. Why not do some research and just see how much crap they have pulled on me and others. Christ do you think any of us wanted what we have got to here??

[–]rune_74 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not british, I'm Canadian as well...he did a video where he is clearly not Canadian.

[–]BluntedJ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Um, can we just review any of your posts from the last few weeks HERE ON REDDIT. You have this tendency to paraphrase or loosely interpret forum posts on SotA and bringing them up here. Except, when you read the actual posts you realize it's not going where you went. And I am not doing your research for your arguments. And (!) you also tend to post things and say they were posted elsewhere, but then don't provide links. No one is doing your research for you.

I am not saying EVERYTHING you say is invalid. I am not saying EVERYTHING you post is a wild accusation. I am saying that it seems you are really hurt over investing in this game. It is a game. This is not real life. We play games to play games, not to try and live life.

There is a difference between legitimate criticism and doom and gloom. Some times, just some times, it seems like you want to be doom and gloom.

[–]rune_74 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Feel free to ask on any of my topics if you have an issue with them. It's a poor policy to attack the poster and not the content, but a practiced one with you guys. I'm not heavily invested in monetary means anymore, however I don't like being slandered by people. I Was quite content to let it go, but you decided that you wanted me pissed off again. Why piss people off?

[–]Commander_Titler[S] -1 points0 points  (5 children)

Actually I was holding a mirror up to you, replying exactly how you did; I even state I'm doing this in the same post, but somehow you managed to miss that.

And then you come out with a load of ridiculous honk about "wild accusations". Which you don't have the courage to debate because you know you can't; I don't recall you ever daring to actually talk about what Portalarium have stated, or even actually done.

Go on then, defend a second Kickstarter for Episode 2.

Instead you come out with insane theories about being Rune when you know full well Rune is banned and I'm clearly not.

So again, why should anyone treat you with respect? I'll debate the facts with those who at least try, like VirtueAvatar, if we can get at least some agreement about what they are.

You though? You haven't even watched a few minutes of my video review, have you? Instead you're making up daft conspiracy theories about being Rune that clearly can't possibly be true. So why should we care?

Ladies and gentlemen, once more; the quality of Shroud's backers. Easier to imagine one single angry person behind hundreds of alts than accept the fact you screwed up and pissed off thousands of your former backers.

[–]BluntedJ 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Man, I was replying about picking up Rune's slack HERE ON REDDIT. For those in the know, Rune made a big post about leaving Reddit. So, the way I meant that was that you have picked up his slack, yada yada, by doing what he used to do.

I don't care where Shroud goes. It can go up in flames while I am playing and it won't make a bit of difference to me. I have no control over what is created. I backed it. That is all. I have legitimate gripes about the game. If they want to have a Kickstarter for Ep 2, then fine. Maybe I will pay $5 or $10 for that. Who knows. And who cares?

[–]Zaranazer -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Shockingly he wasn't able to keep himself away. Well color me surprised. And he's getting pissed, making it harder and harder to keep up his charade and conceal his hatred.

[–]rune_74 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Hahaha, I think you have some issues:P

Ultima Codex this is your alt isn't it?

[–]Commander_Titler[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

He certainly does; his posting history is a classic example of projection;

"I know what you did, but good for you for trying to change. If you can keep it constructive I'm not going to arrest you, but if you cannot move on and accept that you fucked up, I'm probably going to call you out."

Month after month of screaming, yelling, abusiveness and then "but you can't be civil!". When ever he wants to know how to insult people, he seems to think about his own behaviour, and then project it onto other people instead.

Bi-polar is a hell of a disorder.

Now watch as he tries to turn a quick 2 minute skim read (some of us learned to do that when hacking through primary sources for our dissertations) into an "obsession"... from a man whose only comments on Shroud (the rest are about WoW, MMOs in general, World of Tanks and Football) in the last few months have been to insult Rune_74.

You know, people in the future are going to say that personality disordered individuals were one of the main causes why crowd funding never really took off as was once hoped... As projects struggled they were too easily taken over by people who showed no rational ability for self reflection at all.

[–]rune_74 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, that line you qouted of his sure makes it sounds like he had inside info on what I did...sort of like a mod would.