This Comments Policy applies to the following site authors: Robert Lindsay (owner) and Alpha Unit (editor).
First, we may or may not be able to respond to some or any comments, or even emails for that matter, in a timely manner, or at all. We often respond to comments and mails quickly, but that may not always be the case.
Second, we authors reserve the right to violate all of the rules below, since the rules are for others, not for us.
- Offensive comments by others may result in a ban. Offensive comments and mindset applies even to other sites. If you are coming to our site and acting nice and then going around to other sites and bashing away at us, that’s called backstabbing, and it is not allowed. The Comments section is open to friends and neutrals only, not enemies. Criticism from friendlies and neutrals is accepted.
- One warning rule. After a comment has been deleted, if the poster continues to violate the rules even one more time, the commenter may be banned. Banned means none of your comments will be approved.
- Definition of offensive: Basically anything ad hominem. Calling the authors names. Comments with a snide, rude, or insulting tone may possibly also be banned. If you want to attack the authors, you need to do so with class. Criticisms of the authors must be made in either a friendly, neutral or at least a scientific-objective tone. A persistent unfriendly tone towards the authors in the comments threads will result in a ban. This is a cause of many bans.
- Personal life off-limits to attacks. All ad hominem nonsense about the authors’ lifestyle, sex life, social life, marital status, looks, age, happiness quotient or any other aspects of our personalities or mental health, employment status or history, life history, income, “success” vs. “failure” level in life, whether or not we are “winners” or “losers”, or anything negative related to our past, etc, is banned. Truth is, hostile comments about anything relating to our entire personal lives are off-limits to this blog .
- Spelling, grammar, blog style or post style (f)lames. (F)lames is right! Spelling, grammar, blog design or post construction flames against the authors in comments are ad hominem and may be banned, unless you are very nice about it.
- Rightwing commenters are on thin ice on this blog and can be banned at any time for any or no reason.
This is a progressive and socialist blog, particularly in terms of economics. We have a very strong dislike for rightwing economics and the Republican Party, and we don’t want pro-Republicans or those supporting rightwing economics on the site. No attacking the Democratic Party or politicians from the Right. No Republican Party or Libertarian Party propaganda. Post at your own peril. We may let you stay, but you can also be banned at any time for any reason or for no reason at all, depending on our mood. Advocacy of nonpartisan social conservatism is however allowed without reservation. Most bans are for violation of this rule. - Support for the dropout lifestyle. I dropped out of society and the world of materialism, money, status and all that crap a very long time ago. Most of my friends are proletarians who live paycheck to paycheck. Many people I know cannot even afford a car, so they walk, ride bikes or take buses. No one I know has any money saved up in a bank account. Most are renting apartments or rooms in homes. You may not attack poor, low income, working class or proletarian people on this site. You may not attack people who are homeless, jobless or without vehicles. This line of talk is objectively reactionary and will result in an immediate ban.
- No blog-warring in comment threads. Comment threads are neutral zones for warring bloggers. You may not attack the authors from your blog and then come here and expect to be allowed to comment.
- Persistently disruptive comments will be banned. These commenters come to the threads and engage in endless personal feuds with other commenters, contributing nothing of any value. Honestly this is the reason for only a few bans.
- Do not troll the site. Some commenters are nothing but trolls. They only come here to troll the site. If you are coming here just to troll the site and start vicious fights with other commenters, or if you are upsetting a lot of commenters who are demanding that you be banned, you may be banned as a troll.
- No thread hijacking. Self-explanatory. See here for more. Thread hijacking by a few obsessive commenters who take over the site has been one of the worst comments problems on this site for a long time now. If you wish to hijack a thread, take it to Open Topic.
- Ad hoc bans are allowed. Even if you have not violated any of the comments policies above, we reserve the right to ban you simply because we do not like your personality or style. It will be difficult for normal, decent people to run afoul of this rule. There have not yet been any cases of such bans.
- No threatening commenters with physical violence; no threats of any sort. No attempts to violate the civil rights of other commenters.
- Commenters may be banned by the other commenters. The Comments Zone is generally a democratic space. Within limits, you can say just about whatever you want. The editor and I take a very hands-off policy with bans. In general, if people have not violated the Comments Rules, I am not allowed to throw them off here. I have wanted to throw lots of commenters off of her, but I could not because they were not violating the rules. So in a way, you commenters run this place. However, even if you have not violated any rules, you may be thrown off the site via votes by other commenters. So you need to not make your fellow commenters angry, else they might decide to ban you. You have to get a certain number of votes to get banned. The editor is allowed a vote, but I am not allowed one. Also votes to stay counteract votes to ban. For instance, three votes to stay and three votes to ban means there are now zero votes to ban you. Some of the worst commenters have been thrown off the site by the other commenters, but you have to be pretty awful for the other commenters to toss you..
- Banned commenters may petition to be reinstated. You may petition to be unbanned. If you feel you have been banned unfairly, please send us an email petitioning your ban and asking to be unbanned. You will be required to agree to post by the rules. We will review your petition and see about unbanning you. Few people petition bans, but most petitions are granted.
- Do not let the comments policy scare you off. Only a few comments are deleted, it is difficult to get banned from the blog, and you really have to go out of your way to be a jerk to achieve this honor. Don’t let it inhibit you if you feel like making comments.
Alpha Unit
Robert A. Lindsay
The openmindedness of this blog in general and the comments policy is a sterling example of what the Left should be (and often is not): fraternal, no holds barred, unafraid to engage with anyone, democratic, intellectual, intelligent, and barring no-one from its debates on account of their politics alone. It deserves to be much more widely known within the blogging community worldwide. The political and intellectual culture of the community who debate here (with the exception of a few trolls and debate stoppers) is an example to all seeking an egalitarian alternative to capitalism, and a challenge to the boring and otiose official bourgeois media.
“barring no-one from its debates on account of their politics alone”.
What about rule 6? “Rightwing commenters are on thin ice on this blog and can be banned at any time for any reason or no reason.”…”we don’t want pro-Republicans or those supporting rightwing economics on the site.”
You can’t advocate for the Republican or Libertarian Parties in the US. You can’t support rightwing economics. This is a socialist blog. Other than that, we let you say what you want. There are all sorts of crazy people on here – hardline Zionists, racists, anti-Semites, Nazis, White nationalists, Asian nationalists, Chinese nationalists, fascists, Communists. I let them all post.
I see. I can see pros and cons to that approach. By debating with the opposition you can refine your own position, deepen your understanding and develop your arguments. But that can mean you’re constantly in arguments with people (and minds aren’t usually changed in my experience), instead of doing something more fruitful. This way constructive discussions can happen within your own general camp and there may be a more friendly atmosphere.
I just came here btw because I have read quite a bit of your stuff on race realism and race and intelligence and I got a lot out of it. Its a great source of information on the web. Thanks for that.
…I guess I’m talking about the right wing economics vs socialism and assuming this is a socialist community. Thinking about it, there must be a fair bit of controversy on the race issues, with all those different people you mentioned.
Great comment, Paul. I should print that.
I’m not a ‘leftist’ and I post here – I am an ecosocialist along with a White ethno-nationalist…I like Mr. Lindsay’s blog because he is so pro free-speech.
Great blog Mr. Lindsay!
Bullshit, if he was so free-speech he wouldn’t have a laundry list of rules on what you can say on his blog.
Bye, you’re banned.
This is first time that I could bring myself to look at this video. Gruesome does not begin to describe what I saw. I was brought up to believe that nothing is black and white, the truth in all arguemnents lie in shades of grey; there are 2 sides to every story. But as hard as I may have tried to understand their plight, I can never justify their means of punishment towards their own kind or others. As compassionate as I have been tought to be, I find I have none for them. If they beleive in an “Eye for and Eye” let it be so. For those unjust clerics who only seek to elevate their own stature. Let the law apply to them. If a hand does wrong remove it! If the tounge speaks evil remove it, if the eye see’s evil remove it. People who think of such acts, and those who carry them out have no concious; and they have no place in society.
You seem to have an awful lot of time on your hands. What exactly do you contribute?
Hi Dorothy. You’re banned. Comments policy violation.
HAND.
HTH.
This is first time that I could bring myself to look at this video. Gruesome does not begin to describe what I saw. I was brought up to believe that nothing is black and white, the truth in all arguemnents lie in shades of grey; there are 2 sides to every story. But as hard as I may have tried to understand their plight, I can never justify their means of punishment towards their own kind or others. As compassionate as I have been tought to be, I find I have none for them. If they beleive in an “Eye for and Eye” let it be so. For those unjust clerics who only seek to elevate their own stature. Let the law apply to them. If a hand does wrong remove it! If the tounge speaks evil remove it, if the eye see’s evil remove it. People who think of such acts, and those who carry them out have no concious; and they have no place in society.
+1
Do you know anything about this, Robert?
This is the message you get if you try and access your site directly in a public library…
Access Denied The requested document, https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/, will not be shown.
That applies to your whole site. No-one can access it from a public library. In the US too, I guess.
Reason: DDR score = 63. This page will not be displayed because it contains prohibited words or it has exceeded its tolerance of questionable words.
I can circumvent it to some extent, but many documents, such as “My Journey Into Anti-semite Hell” are Access Denied. No way in at all….
It’s the swear words, isn’t it?
Yes, it is swear words. I make an effort not to put any adult stuff on here, otherwise it gets flagged as an adult blog. Anyway, I want the site accessible to minors. I figure minors can handle a swear word or two. I don’t put any nudity or gruesomeness on the site. Except for the swear words, it’s just like Time Magazine.
Are you for real? You think nudity is offensive yet you peddle what you think is historical fact. Marc Lepine was the son of a woman hating man, incidentally *non practicing muslim, who beat his wife and children and abandoned them. The man had issues of inadequacy and blamed women (who by the way worked their asses off despite the barriers) for being better PEOPLE than he was…
Women in Eastern countries don’t know that they can get out of their situations…they are prisoners of their culture. You cannot have a world without equality between the sexes because both sexes are essential in order to make the world happen. Women need to be able to support themselves in the event that their husbands up and leave them with 3 kids, no money or education…grow up idiot…I take it you haven’t been successful with women and thus are taking the Marc Lepine route…coward!!!
Access Denied
The requested document, https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/my-journey-to-anti-semite-hell-and-back/, will not be shown.
Reason: DDR score = 166. This page will not be displayed because it contains prohibited words or it has exceeded its tolerance of questionable words.
Wow! That’s high! I wonder what a DDR score is?
Oh well I guess I’ve have to go and get my computer back from my friend eventually….enjoying the break just now. I’m off to pick fruit at the allotment. There’s such a cornucopia of free plums, raspberries, blackberries and apples at the moment that I can’t pass it up. Hell, I might even make some jam or some wine…blackberries make great wine…I can’t understand why the US doesn’t allocate land for rent so that people can grow food on it. That’s really anti-people. It makes you all the more dependent on Wallmart. As oil prices rise permanently, as they will do in the next five years (my readings on Peak Oil indicate that we’ve already hit Hubbert’s Peak, and Chinese demand pushing oil prices up is only a matter of time), food prices will increase and people will need to grow more of their own stuff.
I’m wondering if collectives of Californians can’t get together and purchase land for collective use, that could then be rented out for a nominal annual rent in 250 square yard plots, as here…
Would there be a law against it? Would the anti Communist lobby hate it?
Americans oppose anything decent, good, right and proper. Anything decent, good, right and proper is automatically Communist or Socialist. These types compose a majority of the US public, at least 53% and probably a lot more.
What you just described would surely be called socialism or Communism here in this shithole of a cuntry. Americans don’t believe in pubic or collective anything. That’s all Communist / socialist.
The solution to the obvious economic collapse that we are undergoing is to destroy most or all government social spending. Talk about retarded. In fall, Americans will probably vote in a Republican Congress “to fix the economy.” Nothing the Repugs propose can possibly fix the economy, and can only make it worse. But Americunts are too stupid to figure that out.
Would it be fair to say that this country is doomed and there’s no hope at all because of the political retardation of its citizens?
And did you purposefully spell country as “cuntry”? That’s funny.
Pretty much. I don’t even really care about this country any more. I don’t even care if bad things happen to America. The people of this country are so stupid they deserve just about every single bad thing that’s going to happen to them in the future. They’ve been supporting all of the policies that are causing these bad things, so they deserve to bear the fruits of their stupid decisions.
This place isn’t worth saving. Let is go down the tubes.
What about its overseas empire? And did you purposefully spell it cuntry?
“The people of this country are so stupid they deserve just about every single bad thing that’s going to happen to them”
I would have thought that somebody deserves negative consequences if they knowingly do something bad. If they are stupid and think their decisions are beneficial then maybe they don’t deserve bad consequences since their intentions are good. Just a thought.
I’ve found Americans to be friendly, courteous people. Not everyone has your level of insight.
I can’t understand why the US doesn’t allocate land for rent so that people can grow food on it. That’s really anti-people.
He who does not make a profit for someone else, neither shall he eat. Regarding collective farms, Monsatan is in the process of gaining control of the worldwide food supply. Whoever feeds you, owns you. The US government won’t teach a man to fish; it is more profitable to keep him striving pointlessly for the increasingly elusive American dream.
Even the desperately poor are big business in the US. What little is left of the welfare state, like food stamps and unemployment pay, is being privatized. Payday loan lenders and rent-to-own stores make billions off the working poor.
Though my current poverty is involuntary, I agree with the “frugal insurgency” approach of Kevin from Cryptogon:
http://cryptogon.com/?p=17017
My take on frugal living is that it is a better response to the situation we’re facing than armed insurgency. Obviously, framing it in those terms doesn’t maintain the right appearances for publications like the New York Times and other dying bastions of polite circledom. Have no doubt about it, though, taking fiat confetti out of circulation hurts this thing bad, far worse than trying to kill it with fire, bombs or bullets. Things like consciously earning less taxable fiat confetti, keeping your fiat confetti “in a mattress” and buying precious metals (physical, not paper based) with previously accumulated fiat confetti are all weapons of mass destruction to the fascists of finance and the maniac vampire state that have built this concentration camp of a system.
And did you purposefully spell country as “cuntry”? That’s funny.
Yeah. I’m in a bad mood.
Like you said, Americunts deserve whatever they get. This country is so fucking pathetic.
Right on. For once I agree with you.
Actually, with the exception of Jews, we agree on pretty much everything.
What about its overseas empire?
That will keep going. Especially with Republicans. The Republican Party is all about US imperialism. To tell the truth, so is the Democratic Party. They just support a lesser version of it.
As best I can tell, Americans support US imperialism to the hilt. In that case, we deserve all the blowback we’re ever going to get for it.
When do you ever hear an American criticizing US imperialism, or even acknowledging that it exists?
Actually what I meant was that the empire is terminal, just like the US economy. It can’t go on much longer.
Who knows?
What do you mean? Do you actually it’s gonna last for the forseeable future? The only people who think it is are establishment hacks writing for the Jew York Times and such. The real smart people, like Chalmers Johnson, Paul Craig Roberts etc., believe the end is near (thankfully).
Bullshit like this makes me hope Chalmers et al are right:
http://www.fastcompany.com/1683302/iris-scanners-create-the-most-secure-city-in-the-world-welcomes-big-brother
As one of the foremost creators and proponents of Reaganomics, I don’t put that much stock in whatever comes out of Paul Craig Roberts’ mouth.
Chalmers Johnson doesn’t believe the end is near, he simply believes (quite reasonably) that our current imperialistic path is unsustainable and will lead to our downfall if continued.
Even if the end of America is “near,” in terms of empires and civilizations that means we are in the last one or two hundred years of existence. Rome was “near” collapse and rapidly losing territories and revenue as early as the 200s, but the seat of the Emperor did not ultimately fall until 476.
As far as the economy goes, it’s really anybody’s guess. Economists have a long and established track record of not really understanding what the fuck is going on with the economy or having any predictive capacity to speak of.
The only credible story I’ve heard of the “end being near” is Peak Oil, which would mean not only the end of American civilization but industrial civilization as we know it.
Paul Craig Roberts has long since recanted his role in the Reagan Revolution. And empires have tended to fall much more rapidly and unpredictably than in ancient times such as Rome, when the world was much more primitive and hence stable.
That being as it may, I don’t understand how you can feel absolutely, 100%, without-the -shadow-of-a-doubt sure than the United States will collapse within our lifetime (barring an extreme Peak Oil scenario as I mentioned, which would mean the collapse of probably the majority of nations on the planet).
I’m not saying that it’s impossible, just that we have no way of knowing or predicting. There are “smart people” on all sides of the coin on this one.
Well the people who tend to say everything is fine tend to be Establishment types that have a vested interest in maintaining status quo and they have long records of lying or getting things wrong, such as Iraq WMD, financial crisis in 2007, Iran must be destroyed etc.To put it frankly, this rotten country has no real economic foundation to speak of anymore. Its industrial base has long been decimated and is now a consumer nation with record-breaking debt levels which depends on a strategic rival (China) for both is financing as well as almost all imports.
“That being as it may, I don’t understand how you can feel absolutely, 100%, without-the -shadow-of-a-doubt sure than the United States will collapse within our lifetime ”
I don’t understand it either. People were saying that the Ottoman Empire was going to fall for hundreds of years before it did and that was because of WWI. It lost several territories but didn’t fall. Even though it had fallen behind technologically they still managed to beat the most techologically advanced and powerful country in the world at the time (the British) at Gallipolli. Americans are not the same as the turks though. A lot of them are soft and self hating, but I still don;t know how much of an effect this could have. Unlike the Ottoman Empire, the US is relatively isolated geographically so a world war here is not likely. Our biggest threat is MExico, but since they can control their own country I don’t think they’re a factor at the moment. I do think that the US will become a form of totalitarian state though. It funny bacause most americans either hate american history(liberals) or hate modern america ( the christian right). The USA may become the first ever hardline xenoPHILLIC state in the history of the world.
Actually, with the exception of Jews, we agree on pretty much everything.
Actually we disagree on a lot. You support fascism. Fuck that. Plus your racism is way over the top and makes me sick. I just hate scumbags, I don’t hate whole races like you do. Sorry man. Check that shit at the door.
Pingback: New Comments Policy | Robert Lindsay
CALON BUPATI BIREUEN PERIODE 2012-2017
* Nurdin Abdurrahman
* Busmadar
* Keuchik Maleek.
* Faisal Ridha
* H Muhammad Wali Al Khalidie
* Faurizal
* Tarmizi Geulanggang
* Saifannur
* Khalili
* Husaini M. Amin
* Mustafa Gelanggang
http://bireuenmediacenter.blogspot.com/2011/02/polling-calon-bupati-bireuen-periode.html
by Faisal Ridha Media Center
Robert Lindsay , you are a sick man for posting that shit!!!
what were you trying to proof by posting that piece of shit???
that you are tuff? fuck you ! you pussyass mother fucker!! do you know
how many kids watched that shit? you are no different by those killers
I have not posted any sick or murder videos on this site. It’s a violation of WP policy to do so.
Anyway, you’re banned, Mr. Impaler.
I’ve been interested in your blog because of the anthropology section. I am a libertarian and and an objectivist, andI was tempted to write a comment on your recent Black IQ article about socialism.
I guess I’m not welcome here. although most of my future comments would have been restricted to anthropology topics, i have eventually said would have said something about my dislike of socialism.
Oh well
my black friends in Blackpool Lancashire England recorded iq’s of over 110 and one of them even over 12o. so what is the gist against blacks.
I see you don’t understand statistics.
someone reply i got nothing else to do
i’m studying statistics in college
The fact that you people are putting simple facts and logic aside, what about the afrikaan Boers who are being systematically killed off in South Africa? You people are so truly disgusting, do you have any idea how many men have been mutilated, baby’s raped in that country? Do do anything less of CONDEMN this crap with total justified fury is to be the same murderous sack of crap the killers are. You people need to think about this before you speak out against white Genocide..
and please do not troll my comment just because my english is not perect, thank you
i go on south african news networks every day and i’ve never heard anything about blacks raping white babies, children and women. Why doesn’t someone ban these racist filthy liars.
Hah, what a load of bullshit. Robert Lindsay isn’t a left-wing socialist: he’s a retarded Nazi piece of shit. In fact, I’m going to track him down and kill him.
Hah, what a load of bullshit. Robert Lindsay isn’t a left-wing socialist: he’s a retarded Nazi piece of shit. In fact, I’m going to track him down and kill him.
Thx sweetheart! Matzel tov baby! You’re a mensch!
You’re also banned, schmuck. Oh well, you can always move to Israel and post from there. You won’t have to worry about us ugly “anti-Semites” over there. Oh no! Watch out! Here comes a rocket! Here, have a glass of grape wine and calm your nerves, boychick.
I had some of that Kedem grape juice from Vons the other day! They are starting to push it and lowering the price for the holy days. That’s the greatest stuff, too bad it’s so expensive.
Really? I like Concord Grape and Manischevitz, though I haven’t met many people who do.
Kosher wines have improved though. We drink Shiraz, Alfasi and Cape Cod Wineries.
I suppose you can’t go wrong with Mmanischewitz. I never had Concord. Kedem is great. It’s got a deep, rich flavor but it’s a rare treat at that price. This time of year they usually will put a coupon or two in the circulars.
It’s great that Jews seem to be able to drink without turning into raging alcoholics. I’ve never known a Jewish lush, although my friend is a half-Jew and he’s had like 35 DUI’s.
For anybody with common sense, the comments policy should be a no brainer. After reading the rules, I can say with 100% certainty that I have crossed all my t’s and dotted all my i’s (even having posted some comments without reading the rules). The cool thing about this blog, is that it is a forum…an open panel for discussion. Here we a get top-of-the-line, grade A, unadulterated opportunity to exercise our 1st Amendment. As someone who has always been academically oriented (BA w/ Major in History and Minor in PoliSci), I feel like I have hit a goldmine of intellectual discussion. Think about it. If we actually wrote a letter to the editor of any of the major newspapers in the country (NY Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune), would they actually print it exactly like we post our comments here in Robert’s blog?
So, that said, hello to everybody. Let’s have som fun discussions on EVERYTHING! And, let’s be respectful and grateful to the man who is making this possible. ¡Gracias Robert Lindsay!
Thank you very much my friend! And glad to see you have a nice BA in some difficult fields. I’m always impressed by that. It’s not something that anyone can get.
looks like this idiot white is one like the norwegian crap anders
All right, you’re banned.
Only read your rules and regulations AFTER I posted.
Seems to me that, if you stick to all your rules, this is going to be a pretty bland site!
So I expect to be banned for living in the wrong country and having a world view somewhat to the right of yours – although, if you check out my profile, you may be surprised.
So, if you’re willing to make an exception and accept posts from someone whose political outlook has been characterised as a little to the right of Attila the Hun – I’m your man!
If not
Bye Bye
This is a socialist website. We don’t accept US style rightwingers on here. You can’t promote rightwing economics, and you can’t propagandize for the US Republican Party or Libertarian Party.
We do have rightwingers on this board, but they stay clear of the rules above and post all the time about other things. Politics is tricky on this board, but there is so much else to life than politics you know. So they post about the 98% of life that is outside of Politricks.
OK – got it!
But I don’t live in the USA – and I have only a passing interest in US domestic politics.
I just find it a bit difficult to let unsubstantiated statements go unanswered – hence my first post; sort of knee jerk reaction!
But you’re right about politics being tricky, and Middle East politics is a quagmire – better to stay away.
Thanks for the prompt reply
Have a good day!
People post on here all the time about the Middle East, and you can practically say anything you want about US foreign policy. We are mostly concerned here about domestic politics, and in particular economics. We are a socialist blog. If you’re an Israeli who wants to write about the Middle East (which I suspect you are) then I say go ahead and write on.
We have several commenters on here who are rightwing on US foreign policy. No one has been banned yet. If you are talking about overseas politics and the ME, you are most likely on safe grounds as far as the blog goes.
Since you are being so nice, I will just let you go ahead and post whatever you want to post. If you are overstepping some lines, I will warn you nicely as first before I ban.
I don’t suspect I am going to have many problems with you.
If you’re a rightwing Israeli, oh well, so be it. I don’t see why rightwing Israelis can’t post here. I’d say they are welcome to the site.
What we are really against is the US Right, and that’s mostly on domestic issues and primarily on economics. Outside of that, you can say whatever. We have antisemites on here, racists, fascists, Nazis, all sorts of loons. As a general rule, we don’t ban folks like that.
Once again, we are socialists with a primary economic focus. If you stay away from critiques of that, you will no doubt be ok. Even the Israeli Right is not too rightwing on economics.
I appreciate your reply from which I understand that you believe that rules are made to be broken.
If I post again I will endeavour to avoid some of the rhetoric you ( amazingly) allow. And I definitely promise not to threaten your life over a political disagreement!
Economics is not really my field but I think you are correct that the policies of the Israeli right are not that right wing. Actually, in your country, they would be considered as almost socialist.
Perversely, the Israeli left now has closer ties to capitalism than the right; that’s part of what makes living here such a challenge!
Just one final economic point. Last week S&P upgraded Israel’s overseas credit rating from A to A+. And this in the same week they downgraded the USA rating.
I guess we must be doing something right ( no pun intended).
Yes, on economics, the Israeli Right is to the Left of the US Democratic Party.
You should fit in here just fine. I’m not worried about you at all. And welcome to the site.
on economics, the Israeli Right is to the Left of the US Democratic Party.
Eh, I disagree.
It was the Likudniks, starting in the late 70s and early 80s, who instituted neoliberal economic reforms.
Ever since then, Israel has gone from having one of the most equal wealth distributions (the low status of Arabs and Mizrahim notwithstanding), to one of the most unequal 1st world countries.
Israel’s economics are so pitiful that even Ashkenazi yuppies in places like Tel Aviv are now disgruntled, as evidenced by the “tent city” protests.
@ Robert
But still, I completely agree regarding the Democratic party.
By comparison, Richard Nixon’s administration today would be like having Eugene Debs in office.
Israel’s economics are so pitiful that even Ashkenazi yuppies in places like Tel Aviv are now disgruntled, as evidenced by the “tent city” protests.
And that’s DESPITE the fact that Israel weathered the 2008-onward financial pretty well.
(see Gilad Atzmon’s “Israeli economy for beginners”)
Right, neoliberal Friedmanite Reaganite economics. That’s what the US Democratic Party supports, right?
And the Likud supports national health care. That’s called Communism in the US, remember. I am sure they support a lot of other socialist policies too, but I’m not really up on that. Maybe Andy can enlighten us about socialism in Israel.
Man, if Nixon-Ford style Republicans were running today against these rightwing Demoncrats, I would SO vote Republican, I swear to God!
Before, what you term “Neo liberal reforms” Israel was an economic basket case.
The centralised government control of most aspects of daily living stifled initiative and lead to a politically corrupt system of “jobs for the boys” .
In some areas you had to be a card carrying member of the ruling party to get a job. Sounds familiar?
Today Israel is an imperfect mixture of a Capitalist economy with strong Socialist influence in the realms of social welfare.
Whilst it may be far from Utopia, you should check out its world ranking in terms of how the population regard the quality of life here.
The demonstrations to which your refer were, in the views of many commentators ( including yours truly) , more about political reform and unseating the present government than they were about ” social justice” – whatever that is.
Of course not everyone is on the same rung of the ladder – and neither are they in America. Your jobless rate is 9.7%. Ours is 5.6%. And our population is 2.5% of yours. A hell of a lot more people are suffering in America than in Israel.
I think there is at least as much inequality in your society as ours.
A sense of proportion would be nice.
“A hell of a lot more people are suffering in America than in Israel.”
Feel free to reject our aid packages.
Feel free to reject our aid packages.
Co-sign!
I guess that asking for a sense of proportion was too much to hope for.
Never mind!
But in answer to your point – do you really want Israel to deprive the US defence Industry of $2 billion worth of orders?
That’s not going to do much for your employment figures!
( you know , of course, that the American military assistance programme requires that at least 75% of the aid is spent in the USA)
Sorry it’s all hotair.
Providing military aid to Israel reflects badly on the US and makes us more vulnerable for terrorist attacks. I want the US to distance itself from Israel and for Israel to be become self reliant. I would be more proud of Israel if they would become self reliant and take a low profile in international affairs.
do you really want Israel to deprive the US defence Industry of $2 billion worth of orders?
Perhaps I’m just speaking for myself, but I’ll gladly pass on that 2 billion dollars in exchange for the over 100 billion dollars that we’ve given to Israel over the years. That, and all the diplomatic and political face we’ve lost on account of the “special relationship.”
you know , of course, that the American military assistance programme requires that at least 75% of the aid is spent in the USA
Well, I don’t have the exact quote at my disposal, but I recall reading in The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy that Israel can get away with not spending its military aid in the U.S, and instead uses it to develop its own very lucrative arms industry.
As you say – you are speaking for yourself and not for any of the US Presidents and administrations of the past 60 years or so.
As I previously stated – the majority of the money was spent in the USA.
Israel is limited to spend not more than 25% of the funds on its own developments – but many of those are jointly with the USA and it receives the benefits of of Israel’s technological expertise.
I think you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that Israel is some sort of charity case.
There is a saying that “countries do not have friends – only interests!”
Whatever America has done in respect of its overseas policies , whether with Israel, or any other country , has ALWAYS been in what it perceives as its own self interest.
Your feelings about the ” special relationship” are not shared by the majority of the American people and, neither , would it seem by your legislature.
Gay Area Guy
I don’t trust Mearsheimer any more. He’s gone over the edge.
I don’t trust Mearsheimer any more. He’s gone over the edge.
In what way? I guess you mean that he’s focusing on domestic Israeli issues when he should just be focusing on American interests.
I myself have lost a bit of respect for Stephen Walt, especially after he denigrated Western European civilization following the Norway shooting.
As you say – you are speaking for yourself and not for any of the US Presidents and administrations of the past 60 years or so.
So which American presidents are you referring to? Dwight Eisenhower, who threatened action unless Israel withdrew from the Sinai following the 1956 war? Jimmy Carter, who caught tremendous flak for challenging Menachem Begin? Or George Bush Sr, who threatened to withhold 10 billion in loan guarantees from Israel unless Israel promised not to expand Jewish settlements, and when Israel spit in Bush’s face, he went before the American public and publicly challenged Israel and the Israel lobby?
And if you believe that this “special relationship” exists due to American support for Israel and American self-interest, then you need to be educated on U.S. domestic politics. In virtually every part of the world (with perhaps the exception of Canada), the Israel/Palestine conflict is seen as a foreign policy issue.
Only in the U.S. is it a domestic issue. You know why that is?
I’ll give you a hint: It has to do with the fact that a small, but wealthy and active minority gives a certain political party the majority of its funds, and another political party a fairly large percentage of its funds, and the fact that this minority wields grossly disproportionate influence in the media.
I didn’t like his Righteous vs The New Afrikaaners, it was in poor taste and reflected badly on him, though it was sweet revenge coming from a German American. (You know the whole righteous gentiles bit.)
His name is Andy so I’m pretty sure he’s an Anglo
Andy
If Israel becomes self reliant, they won’t have to answer to anyone.
You mean don’t let the facts get in the way of your prejudices?
There is absolutely no evidence that would support your contention that supporting Israel damages America.
Of course you are entitled to say what you would personally like to see
No one can prevent you from wishing for utopia.
You mean don’t let the facts get in the way of your prejudices?
No, I mean I’ve actually done some reading and research on this topic.
And yes, there is evidence to support my contention that the U.S./Israel relationship is bad for the U.S.
Our support for Israel is a diplomatic albatross, it’s bad for our relationship with the Arab world (as even neocon favorite General Petraeus admitted), and thanks to Israel and its Israel firster supporters and hasbara agents in the U.S, we got the second war in Iraq.
And if they could get away with it, they’d have us expend American blood and treasure fighting in Iran.
(Stephen Sniegoski, Jeffrey Blankfort, and Mearsheimer and Walt have all documented this)
No one can prevent you from wishing for utopia.
HA! Who said anything about utopia?
I don’t think that the Arab world or the U.S’s relationship with said Arab world would be peaches and cream but not for Israel.
Hardly. There would still be tremendous problems.
But still, unless you can conjure up some good evidence that the U.S. benefits from its relationship with Israel, and that those benefits are enough to outweigh the costs, I’m not convinced.
BTW, your English is very good, which leads me to ask: Were you born in Israel, or are you an American/Canadian Jew who decided to become a “dual citizen?”
Look, you can cry “antisemitism” all you want but you have to look at the facts.
I have to be honest. Unquestioning support for Israel has drained us financially, undermined our role as a superpower, and yes helped bring 9/11.
Support for Israel has not only harmed its allies, it has also made diaspora jews less safe. Recall that during the 2006 Lebanon war, a muslim went on a shooting spree of a JCC in Seattle, a Yeshiva in Montreal was fire bombed (by a Lebanese Christian actually) and during Cast Lead, Belgian muslims rioted in an Orthodox neighborhood in Brussels.
Israelis only care about diaspora jews when they want political support or donations.
Sorry guys – i will answer you but it’s 1.00 am here in Eilat and I need to get some sleep!
Just briefly – the replies got mixed and you answered my post for the lovely Gay State Girl – bit confusing.
And yes, I’m an Israeli by choice, not just by an accident of birth.
Originally from the UK – so my English is English English -not a dialect from our former colonies!
Good night!
BAG
“No, I mean I’ve actually done some reading and research on this topic. ”
I believe you. I’ve read Finklestein and Chomsky on the Arab Israeli wars and Israeli barbarism in general, however you seem to have decent knowledge on the inner workings of Israeli society and politics.
Why thank you!
Israel is always interesting to study. Talk about one dysfunctional, divided society.
Of course, the same could be said about most multiracial, multireligious democracies (including the one I live in). But Israeli society seems to take its insanity to a whole new level.
You’re one of the wisest critics of US/Israel foreign policy and organized jewry I have ever met.
Others just go off the deep end and exaggerate.
It’s funny. I know people who will claim any form of criticism of Israel, (even economic or environmental policy) is anti Israel.
to: Gay State Girl and Bay Area Guy
Ok – I’m back and posting now from Tel Aviv
I don’t know what happened – must have been the hour – but you received and answered posts meant for each other. Bit confusing for all. I’ll try to give my responses, and If I forget something, i’m sure you’ll tell me.
GSG
Did I accuse you of anti-semitism? I don’t think so.
And 9/11 was our fault? The web is awash with conspiracy theories that Israel planned and engineered the whole thing – Maybe with your CIA – maybe not.Please don’t go there.
Regarding your point about US support for Israel – i have to repeat what I told your friend.
Countries ALWAYS do what they think is in their best interests with friend and foe alike. If you don’t think that American policy is in the best interests of America – then argue with your leaders. You elected them!
You have point about Israel’s actions reflecting on diaspora Jews. Hertzl must be turning in his grave. He believed that the existence of a Homeland for the Jews would make all Jews safer. He was wrong,
But Muslims attack non Jews also, The bombings in London and Madrid being two examples. I believe absolutely in Samuel Huntington’s claim that the world is witnessing a “clash of civilisations. This is not about Arabs and Jews. It’s about Muslims – and anyone who doesn’t accept and follow the teachings of the prophet.
And in this battle you need Israel on your side. Our experience in dealing with terrorism is unmatched.
Regarding Israel’s relationship with the Jewish diaspora – that’s tricky and complicated. The problem revolves about the degree to which those jews not living in Israel and, therefore, not having to face the existential danger that we have to cope with every day of our lives.should try influence the actions of our elected government.
The issue is complex due to the nature of the relationship of Diaspora Jews to Israel. Also, unlike your system. Expat Israelis cannot vote in our elections ( apart from diplomats or those on official business).
Finally I didn’t understand your reference to The New Afrikaaners and me. Can you elaborate?
Regarding Israel becoming self reliant – are you sure you really want that
You know, of course the Chinese saying “be careful what you wish for”.
An Israel with no-one to “reign her in” ?
BAG
Sorry – my reply to you got wiped and I’m very pissed. No autosave.
Have to do it again later.
Mind you, when your head guru said I could post on his site, i was not planning to become the Israeli whipping boy of the month.
Doesn’t give me time for my own blog ( which you probably shouldn’t read) – could be the end of a beautiful friendship. (due acknowledgement to Humphrey and Claude)
“”This is not about Arabs and Jews. It’s about Muslims – and anyone who doesn’t accept and follow the teachings of the prophet.””
This is true. Even as we speak, Muslims have rallied a massive global invasion force stationed in a massive bunker in Antartica. Since Muslims aren’t a single race and have no language in common save for English, they can’t figure out who should lead that army. We’ll have to consult our Muslim Pope for guidance.
“”And in this battle you need Israel on your side. Our experience in dealing with terrorism is unmatched.”””
This is very true. In fact the US military consulted the IDF on occupational tips during the Iraq invasion. After all, who else would know about terrorizing unarmed civilians using sophisticated weaponry? The Americans can mass produce F-16s but its the Israelis who know how to use them to achieve maximum terror. The american army can win a war, but they need to defer to Israeli expertise in brutalizing an unarmed population into submission. I’m in full agreement with you Andy.
@ Andyboy
All right, I’ll indulge you for a bit longer.
Did I accuse you of anti-semitism? I don’t think so.
No, you didn’t accuse GSG of anti-Semitism, but you accused me of anti-Semitism, with your whole line about “not letting facts get in the way of your prejudices.”
And 9/11 was our fault? The web is awash with conspiracy theories that Israel planned and engineered the whole thing – Maybe with your CIA – maybe not.Please don’t go there.
Okay, Andyboy, let me try to explain. GSG was NOT accusing Israel of somehow planning 9/11.
What she meant was that our support for Israel (in addition to other factors, such as our military bases), and its mistreatment of the Palestinians played a big role in angering Osama Bin Laden and other top Al-Qaeda operatives. In one major speech during the 90s, Bin Laden specifically singled out the Israel/Palestine conflict as something that deeply infuriated him, and this country’s support for Israel did not help.
THAT is what GSG meant.
Countries ALWAYS do what they think is in their best interests with friend and foe alike. If you don’t think that American policy is in the best interests of America – then argue with your leaders. You elected them!
In most cases, yes. But let’s just say that U.S. support for Israel has more to do with “domestic factors” (take a wild guess what those might be) than any U.S. strategic interests.
If you want to provide me reasons for why you think Israel is a strategic asset for the U.S, I’m more than happy to debate you on that.
You know what? I do believe that Americans ought to organize politically on a grassroots level and give this pro-Israel fifth column a piece of our mind.
Unfortunately, anti-Israel voices in the media are hard to come by, because let’s just say that the media is “Israel Occupied Territory.”
But Muslims attack non Jews also, The bombings in London and Madrid being two examples. I believe absolutely in Samuel Huntington’s claim that the world is witnessing a “clash of civilisations. This is not about Arabs and Jews. It’s about Muslims – and anyone who doesn’t accept and follow the teachings of the prophet.
For Europeans, perhaps. They definitely have Muslim issues that they’ll have to resolve.
But as a white American, I have a hell of a lot more to worry about than so-called “Islamofascists.” Muslims have had absolutely no negative effect on my everyday life.
Americans (white Americans in particular) in general need to snap out of this absurd post 9/11 anti-Muslim hysteria.
And in this battle you need Israel on your side. Our experience in dealing with terrorism is unmatched.
LOL! Really now?
So, how does having Israel “on our side” help us deal with domestic Muslim terrorism in the Western world? Does Israel generously send Mossad agents to London and Madrid to help them thwart terrorist attacks?
Geographical considerations alone prevent Israel from being an effective ally against “terrorism.” Oh, and to the extent that Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East are terrorists, they wouldn’t be so angry or radical if it weren’t for Israel’s presence, U.S. support for Israel, and the U.S’s military presence.
I don’t know of any way in which Israel has helped the West fight terrorism, but I can certainly think of a way in which its actions have hurt.
Allow me to relate an anecdote.
I was traveling in the UK (hey, your former country!) during the summer of 2006, around the time that Israel invaded Lebanon once again.
(I guess getting humbled by Hezbollah the first time wasn’t enough)
Around the same time, there was a plot by Muslim extremists to commit an attack against Heathrow Airport by using some sort of liquid based explosive.
The plot was foiled, thankfully, by British intelligence.
But I recall watching the BBC, and many Muslims, when interviewed about their reactions to the plot, angrily evaded the question by denouncing what Israel was doing to fellow Muslims in Lebanon.
Yes, it certainly turned out well, as I got home just fine. But I recall the fear and apprehension surrounding Heathrow Airport and the potential that I might have my flight delayed, or worse.
To be clear, correlation does not equal causation, and those Muslim extremists could have wanted to commit an attack for other reasons. But having Israel as an ally certainly didn’t make Westerners like me safer with regards to terrorism. If anything, its actions inflamed Muslims living in Western countries and potentially endangered Westerners like me.
Oh, and speaking of “terrorism,” I can think of at least a couple of instances in which Israel, not the Palestinians or eeeevil Iranians, but Israel, has committed terrorist acts against Americans.
If you think I’m full of it, look up the “Lavon Affair” and “USS Liberty” on google. Let me just ask you: Do you think any other country could attack and kill Americans in such a manner and get away with it?
Well, there’s a reason for that, and it’s not U.S. “interests.”
Regarding Israel becoming self reliant – are you sure you really want that?
You know, of course the Chinese saying “be careful what you wish for”.
An Israel with no-one to “reign her in” ?
Wow, so on the one hand, you’re saying that Israel is a great ally, particularly an ally against terrorism.
And yet, at the same time, you’re saying that it’s bad for Israel to become self-reliant, because without someone to “reign her in,” she’ll become a loose cannon.
Sounds more like a liability to me.
Look, Andyboy, let me just clarify something here. I don’t mind you being an Israeli patriot or supporting what you see as Israel’s interests. That’s all fine and good, and I wouldn’t expect citizens of other countries to think any differently.
But you guys need to stop trying to drag the U.S. into your messes and stop trying to influence U.S. foreign policy with your hasbara.
@ Dota
Hehe, good sarcasm.
No I found Dota’s sarcasm to be petty and cliche, quite similar to Finkelstein and Jewart. Real comedy involves poking fun at yourself and your own viewpoints as well as those of who you disagree with. That way, everyone will get on board with you.
“No I found Dota’s sarcasm to be petty and cliche, quite similar to Finkelstein and Jewart. ”
LOL I love how you hate on ol Norman. It’s the only thing that really gets your goat. Still his selfless and honourable crusade for the Palestinians is worthy of emulation. Especially since he’s getting nothing out of it in return except the hatred of a people that loathe his kind. Sort of like Jesus sacrificing his life for a humanity that despised him. Norman’s a lot like Jesus don’t you agree GSG?
😀
I love Norman so much, I want him to father my children. I just think his jokes and references to the holocaust are overused. I told him he should try to “diversify” his satirical material, that way he could win over more people. I understand not wanting to make fun of Palestinians right now, seeing as they are living under brutal military occupation, but it would’t hurt to take a few at himself.
I experienced a terrorist attack at Hethrow as well. Back in 1994, My family and I were flying to South Africa and had a lay over in London. That day the IRA decided to launch empty shelled mortars at the terminal we were flying into. We were stranded in London for four days.
Andy
Though I’m certainly not an apologist or advocate for Islam, I don’t muslims as a whole is at war with the West. A combination of factors led to 9/11, one of which was motivated by a twisted, radical form of Wahabism, which was triggered in part by Western aggression in the region. Though terrorist attacks are mostly perpetrated by Muslims, there have been a few attacks perpetrated by Arab christians as well, like the one I mentioned. This is a regional conflict not a religious one.
I didn’t compare you to “the new Afrikaaners,” I was referring to a speech given by John Mearsheimer, in which he divided Jews into two groups; Righteous Jews (Naomi Klein, Chomsky, Finkelstein, Jeremy Ben Ami) and the neoconservative jews whom he referred to as “the new afrikaaners.” I thought this speech was in poor taste partly because it is a delicate subject, partly because I can’t stand half of the people he cited as “righteous jews,” as I believe they are self serving opportunists, trying to make names for themselves or trying to find a forum to spread their own views which are unrelated to the Israeli Arab conflict.
“You have point about Israel’s actions reflecting on diaspora Jews. Hertzl must be turning in his grave. He believed that the existence of a Homeland for the Jews would make all Jews safer. He was wrong,”
You got that right. Most jews are too emotionally attached to face reality. I do support the concept of jewish nationalism though and I am disgusted by those who condemn the very concept. I believe Israel should have been created in the beautiful and sparsely populated region of Kimberley, Western Australia, which was proposed by the League of Nations before WWII but was ultimately rejected by the then Prime Minister.
To Bay Area Guy and Gay State Girl
In case you were concerned that I vanished from the face of the earth, I just wanted to update you.
I was preparing for, and eventually participating in, Spencer Tunik’s latest art installation which took place in the Dead Sea yesterday.
You can find all the details on the net.
Basically the fact that 1000+ Israelis were willing – and legally able – to get naked for the sake of saving the Dead Sea says all that needs to be said about the freedom of expression in our society, compared to that of our neighbours – and every other Muslim State on the Earth.
So, As I was floating on the surface of the warm oily waters, and looking up at the sky as the sun rose. I though to myself – why the hell do I need to spend my time fighting with you guys?
Arguing about the veracity of a particular statement, and batting facts and figures backwards and forwards is going nowhere.
You have a worldview based on who you, where you are, your core moral, ethical, political and – maybe – religious values, and so do I.
It’s just that mine are the mirror image of yours.
I cannot help the fact that you don’t like what your president or legislature are doing, or have ever done, in connection with Israel. But it’s your problem – not mine.
I’m going to have enough problems just trying to survive in such a hostile world.
Check out the media reports of the event. I’m sure you’ll agree with the majority of talkbackers who used even this cultural demonstration to bash us.
Have a good week!
“I’m going to have enough problems just trying to survive in such a hostile world.”
Brace yourself. It’s only going to go downhill from here, baby.
Brace yourself. It’s only going to go downhill from here, baby.
Yeah, the future of Israel doesn’t look too bright.
A house of cards of an economy, demographic and racial problems (even within the Jewish population), increasingly unfavorable international opinion, the growing numbres of the parasitical and fanatic ultra-Orthodox population (sorry to insult the Orthodox, GSG, but there’s just no other way to describe the Haredim or religious fundamentalists in Israel) and the growing boldness of Palestinians do not bode well for Israel.
I don’t know how exactly things will play out over there, but it sure won’t be pretty.
True. I’m not a big fan of the settlers or Mea Shaarim, but the ultra secular do their share of provocations too. It was in poor taste to hold an International GLBT pride parade in Jerusalem. They were just looking for trouble.
I’m not a big fan of the settlers or Mea Shaarim, but the ultra secular do their share of provocations too.
Yes, and it’s also worth noting that one of the grievances of the Mizrahim had to do with the secularization of Israel carried out by the Ashkenazi elite.
That, along with other social grievances and economic frustration, prompted them to support the Likud in 1977.
@ GSG
BTW, Jew Among You just finished translating “The Ashkenazi Revolution”, which looks like a very interesting read, and is now available for PDF download.
Since you’re interested in the Ashkenazi/Mizrahi divide, you would probably enjoy it.
@Bay Area Guy
“Yeah, the future of Israel doesn’t look too bright.”
The US will go down with it as major financial, government, military and intelligence are inter-twinned with Israel and Israeli interests
Good thing about Israel is that it has become a liability for the NWO who are fully behind pushing for an energy alliance between Turkey and Iran as advocated by Brzezinski, Europe and British interests in the US to circumvent Russia oil and gas contracts to Europe going through occupied Kosovo into European markets.
What do you think our foreign policy has been about since the end of the USSR with all the major events in Europe and Eurasia?
Assuming this is not just political theatre between Israel and Turkey although they are cooperating with each other supporting Islamic militant groups in Syria, Israel might back Kurdish separatists in the North to undermine both Iran and Turkey.
It would be good if there was war against Iran as that would really screw up the NWO plans.
I understand that you both missed me whilst I was away. I mean it’s not much fun preaching to the converted, is it?
Much better to find a punching bag.
And if your dire predictions about Israel’s future come to pass – well it’ll be my problem – not yours. And you can always say “I told you so!”
@Gay State Girl
Brace yourself. It’s only going to go downhill from here, baby.
Mat Rodina recently did a piece on the upcoming Palestinian vote and what it might lead to.
http://mat-rodina.blogspot.com/2011/09/turkey-on-edge-of-life-and-death.html
“Basically the fact that 1000+ Israelis were willing – and legally able – to get naked for the sake of saving the Dead Sea says all that needs to be said about the freedom of expression in our society, compared to that of our neighbours – and every other Muslim State on the Earth.
So, As I was floating on the surface of the warm oily waters, and looking up at the sky as the sun rose. I though to myself – why the hell do I need to spend my time fighting with you guys?”
Good point. I’m sure there is an Iranian out there who’s floating on the oily waters of the Persian gulf reflecting on his freedom to question the Holocaust whereas those that do in Western Europe and Israel are imprisoned.
Arguing about the veracity of a particular statement, and batting facts and figures backwards and forwards is going nowhere.
You have a worldview based on who you, where you are, your core moral, ethical, political and – maybe – religious values, and so do I.
Again you have a point. Why bother debating worldviews when yours is backed by US made F-16s?
Very true. Why should you be arguing worldviews when yours is backed by US made F-16s?
“Again you have a point. Why bother debating worldviews when yours is backed by US made F-16s?
Very true. Why should you be arguing worldviews when yours is backed by US made F-16s?”
That’s redundant.
It was an accident. Copy paste goof ftl
Maybe you do too much copy pasting and not enough thinking.
Now, it may surprise you know that I am also opposed to imprisoning those that deny the holocaust. The fact that they might be historically inaccurate and rabidly anti-semitic should not deprive them of the right to spew any garbage they like.
The world will have to make up is own mind based on the facts.
I’m not quite sure that this freedom extends to threatening to wipe Israel off the map but the point is largely academic. Should the “Arab spring” spread to Iran ( yes- I know they’re not Arabs) then who knows what will happen to the current regime?
And, please stop referring to F 16’s . We’re waiting for the first shipment of the new Lockheed F35.
Then you can complain!
And you will!
andyboy,
I don’t believe Israel has a right to exist on logical grounds. On paper, it’s a fraud, so are the Jews. On paper. But as they say, in basketball, that’s why you play the game. On paper there’s no way the Mavericks should have beaten the Heat, eh. Do you like basketball? Pro basketball was created by New York Jews. One of the odd quirks of America looking from the outside. But it makes sense. Never get too theoretical, too moralistic. If Israel goes down, it’s not without a fight. That’s the way it should be. BTW, Israelis make great customers! Love em. Jews are a wonderful people. I can trust them, they know a bargain when they see it, and they don’t bitch, bitch, bitch like Catholics, Muslims and Canadians, the other countries of the Middle East are not functional. Turkey maybe, the rest not. God be with Israel!
Hacienda
LOL what?!?!?
GSG,
Israelis are good consumers of my products. Fun to sell too. Canadians are the worst. Worse than any nationality I sell to. Russians are awful, Saudis suck, Brazilians are okay, but they just don’t have a functioning postal system. But the worst are Canadians. Just off-the-charts bitchiness and impatience. I used to kinda like Canadians as the stiff, formal dipshits they are, but now fuck’em.
Hacienda
I know too well. Gay Area Guy tells me I’m lucky because I don’t live in a border state. Yet anywhere north of Boston we have this influx of French Canadian culture. “The root of all evil” if you watch South Park.
What do you sell?
Israelis and Brazilians are great, Russians, Saudis and Canadians suck.
Hacienda sells bikinis.
“What do you sell?”
I get this question a lot : ). And it wears me out. Feels like I’m giving away competitive secrets. Just say I sell a range of products and I’m constantly looking for unique items, stuff you don’t find at Walmart. It’s what gives me an edge.
@Gay State Girl
“What do you sell?”
Hacienda sells dildos.
“Good thing about Israel is that it has become a liability for the NWO”
John, you’re a rare gem.
“It would be good if there was war against Iran as that would really screw up the NWO plans.”
OMG. This is golden. How do you come up with this material? NE should hire you.
(”You’re a rare gem John”) x 10000
=p
Whose NE and its true why would attacking Iran benefit the NWO?
Who is NE meant to write. I was writing the comments in the early hours of the morning.
Relax I meant the National Enquirer should hire you. That’s a compliment, by the way as my Israeli friend dreamed of writing for them herself.
AndyBoy
I think you missed the point of my post Mr deep thinker. Freedom is highly subjective.
“”I’m not quite sure that this freedom extends to threatening to wipe Israel off the map but the point is largely academic.””
You speak Farsi Mr Deep thinker? Because as I understand it, Ahmadinejad said that Zionism would fade away in time like all oppressive empires eventually do. But if you speak Farsi, please show me the text where he says what you”re accusing him of saying. And even if someone did say it, big deal. Dissolving the political entity Israel is not tantamount to genocide. Only a brain dead retard would equate the two. Pakistan is more than likely to break apart into 3 or 4 states. Does that mean Pakistanis need to start taking swimming lessons?
I think you’re ruining the curve on that legendary high Israeli IQ Andy.
@ Dota
I’m not much of an HBDer, but the Israeli collective IQ is only 94, which is not much higher than the collective IQ of U.S. Hispanics.
Of course, I wonder how much that overall score is impacted by the Israeli Arab population.
I also wonder how the score would look if you compare the Mizrahim to the Ashkenazim.
I still find it hard to believe that 94 is the average of Israel since the Sephardic and Mizrahi contain intellectual populations as well. In North Africa, Jews were part the borgeouise class prior to World War II. The Iranian jewish contains many successful businessmen. They must be intelligent if their epicenter is Beverly Hills.
Palestinians have a decent amount of European ancestry from the crusades though the ancestry may date too far back for them to impacted by it.
The public relations practices among Israelis and diaspora jews force me to question the legendary jewish IQ. Constantly invoking of the Holocaust won’t cut it anymore. You got to adjust with the times. Always evolve or become irrelevant.
You’re the wisest critic of organized jewry I have ever met.
@ GSG
Thank you! I have calmed down on the Jewish Question. I do remember going through an angry at Jews phase.
I’m still aware of the JQ, but I don’t dwell on it too much.
The public relations practices among Israelis and diaspora jews force me to question the legendary jewish IQ.
Well, in fairness, I don’t think that has to do with Jewish IQ (or lack thereof, as you’re insinuating). I think it’s pure emotions on their part. If you got Abe Foxman to talk about issues other than Israel or the JQ, I’m sure he would be tolerable (though his embrace of multiculturalism and diversity is very irritating).
I wish all the jewish critics were like you. I could definitely get on board.
I completely understand that the holocaust is an emotional issue for Foxman and Wiesel and their generation but you have jews in their 30’s using the holocaust to rationalize everything from establishing Hebrew charter schools to deporting Sudanese guest workers fleeing a genocide of their own. People are growing increasingly fatigued by constant explotation of the holocaust and jews are going to have to get more creative if they want to justify their behavior.
Lindsay, I heard somewhere that the 1963 hit song Camp Granada was an allusion to the concentration camps. Is there any truth to that?
It’s the legendary Ashkenazi IQ, though I’m no sure if Andy is Ashkenazi as a good percentage of British Jews are decendents of Spanish and Portuguese jews fleeing the Inquisition.
The average Israeli IQ is relatively low for a developed nation due the high percentage of non whites.
I’m thinking of compiling a list of all the insults ! have received since I started posting on the subject of Israel, and its right to exist.
Those of us not sharing the worldview of most of the contributors to this forum are used to this phenomenon.
I am wondering whether to start a project comparing the originality and frequency of the insults to the lack of depth of the arguments of the person doing the insulting.
There might be a scale – say quality of insult against validity of the argument being put forward. I guess “brain dead retard” would figure quite high on the scale – so the rest of you can now come to your own conclusions!
I didn’t understand from your kind remarks if you were fluent in Farsi. If not, I assume that we both had to rely on translations. And I said I wasn’t sure about Ahmadinejad – but , on reflection, he can say what he likes. If his argument and logic convinces people like you then so be it.
And, on the subject of IQ – I assume you base your final insult on the work of Richard Lynn from 5 years ago.
Considering that he rated the good old US of A 32nd in the world and Israel 40th with a difference between them of only 4 points, I don’t think you should get too excited.
After all even Mongolia and Estonia scored higher than you!
“”I’m thinking of compiling a list of all the insults ! have received since I started posting on the subject of Israel, and its right to exist.””
While you’re at it, I’ve got a list of insults that have been hurled at me for stating that the Palestinians have a right to exist. Not on this blog, but on other right wing ones.
I don’t speak Farsi, but I’ve grown up around Iranians. Associating with them has thankfully changed my perception of Iran. The nation is far more complex than the one dimensional stereotype propogated by the jewtarded media.
I don’t know what you said that could have inflamed emotions – but I can imagine!
If you could have restrained yourself long enough to have avoided the “jewtarded” bit, I could even have agreed with the whole sentence.
And I have never denied that those Arabs, whose PR machine has created for them the artificial identity of “Palestinian”, have a right to exist. A right, by the way, which is not reciprocated by a large proportion of them in respect of Israel’s rights.
The question is, where?
They have a perfectly suitable ready made state called Jordan. I have no problem if they wish to exist there.
After all, historically, Jordan IS Palestine!
Andy
We’re not hateful, we are simply feeding you the convenient facts. Perhaps you can use them to help you evolve with the times and build a stronger argument.
Well – maybe you are not hateful to those that follow your party line – but you haven’t been to fuzzy and warm to me.
Actually, I think you that now you have put your finger on the exact issue.
“Convenient facts?” You mean your interpretation of the facts as you see them. Or are you saying that there can only be one correct viewpoint.?
Yours?
Andy
Sorry if I came across as rude. I like to argue with everyone. Israel is a liability to the West. There’s no denying it. If you want allies, you’re going to have to offer them something in return. And you can’t impose yourselves on other nations and make them carry the burden of your problems. Now, I have my own issues with the Palestinian leadership, and their Western allies, but Palestinians have a right to exist as a nation just as anyone else would. Though I doubt the authenticity of the historical “Palestinian” identity, I believe that they have the right to identify themselves however they want. And though I support the concept of Jewish Nationalism with every fiber of my being (liberal jews would call me a “ghettoizer”), the creation of a Jewish state on someone else’s land was an injustice to the residents living there, regardless of whether the new settlers have a claim to the land or not. Put yourself in the Palestinians shoes, and think how you would behave if a group of people built a country on your land and imposed their government and legal system on you.
As to what you said about Herzl turning over in his grave, I agree, though I do not believe this should render Jewish nationalism invalid and believe a jewish state or multiple jewish states could survive and thrive under the right circumstances.
Well said GSG, even I can get on board with everything you’ve said up there. I’m not a fan of Arabs either as I’ve spent 10 years in Dubai and its the Khaleeji Arabs I dislike the most. The Arab Israeli conflict is a matter of justice.
I’m also aware that the Palestinian identity is highly artificial, but all identities are at the end of the day. Whats important here is that the Palestinians are living breathing human beings whose rights are being trampled upon. These people have lived on this land for centuries and do not deserve to be displaced even if their current identity is merely a 100 years old or so.
At least we can agree that the so called Palestinian identity is spurious and simply the product of great PR and a gullible world. Their “identity” is , maybe 100 years old, Jewish identity is nearly 6000 years old!
But, exactly which rights are we talking about? There is no historical basis for their claim to Palestine in the territory that is now Israel.
And I will repeat, ad nauseum, that Jordan IS Palestine – and was under the British Mandate.
The fact that the son of the little King is disturbed by this claim is his problem.
Andy
The fact that their presence predates that of the Israelis is all that matters. Even if they were martians who resettled in the middle east 100 years prior to the settlement of European jews and the European jews were full blooded decendents of the ancient Israelites, they would still have a greater claim to the land. I believe the Palestinians have the right to have a state of their own and to be ensured of safety and equality within Israel proper, though their leadership and the PSM in the West is not doing a very good job, especially among those in the Jewish community. Recall I loathe the multiculturalist jews as well and believe that they are just using the Palestinian cause as a podium to spread their ideas.
I’m sure that in real life , you are are lovely lady.
But these forums bring out the worst in people, even – surprise surprise – me!
It would be an interesting subject for a soclological study.
Anyway, I think you made my point for me. You make a statement about Israel – and then say “There’s no denying it”.
A perfect example of YOUR truth. Why cannot anyone have the temerity to challenge your claim – on this – or anything else?
Regarding the rights of the Palestinians to exist as a nation – please see my response to Dota ( above) so I have no need to repeat it.
And you then continue with a bold statement – as if it is indisputable fact – that Israel was created on “stolen” Palestinian land.
And the rest of the paragraph is just parroting Arab propaganda.
I really marked you out as brighter than that!
My point about Hertzl was that he thought that the very existence of a Jewish state, wherever situated, would bring an end to the persecution of the Jews. And we both know that he was wrong.
“”Their “identity” is , maybe 100 years old, Jewish identity is nearly 6000 years old!””
But what does that have to do with a British man who practices the Jewish religion? He has claim to England, but not Palestine. Don’t think for one second that the Israeli identity is any less artificial. The hebrew race is extinct, like the Romans, Aryans and Sumerians to name a few. Today’s Jews are no more Hebrew than I am Nordic. Hence a bunch of Europeans practicing Judaism and adopting an identity that isn’t genetically or culturally their own is suffering from false consciousness. The Israeli identity is just as artificial as the Palestinian one.
Secondly
Land belongs to those who settle there. The Jews can’t lay claim to a land that they had abandoned 2000 years ago, assuming todays jews are the hebrews of old (which they aren’t). The other method of acquiring that land is through conquest, which is what the jews have done. I wouldn’t have a problem with you if you were honest enough to admit that.
Avraham Burg has said that jewish identity has become dependent on the persecution narrative so they need an enemy.
I don’t have much emotional connection to Israel. As a child, South Africa was my second home. I had a burning desire to rebuild the temple though.
I’m sure there’s a lego set for that :p
I’m sure there’s a lego set for that :p
Mindcraft would be better.
The Israel Bookshop used to sell a Build your own Beit Hamigdash kit for ages eight and up. But by the time I had turned eight, they stopped selling it. I lost out on both counts.
I apologize for that crack GSG, that was in poor taste.
That’s okay.
I don’t practice the Jewish religion , or an other for that matter as I am an Atheist!
Your claims about the Hebrew race is based upon which anthropological research, exactly? And Jews are not a race – they are a People, not the same thing at all.
Jews never “abandoned ” Palestine, they were expelled. But a smal number remained so there has been a continuous Jewish presence there for at least 2000 years.
I understand why you have no problem with the principle of acquiring land by conquest – but I guess your Native Americans view the subject somewhat differently!
“Jews never “abandoned ” Palestine, they were expelled. ”
And how does that justify expelling Arabs from the land they occupied in Jewish Absence? Or is the holy land a VIP suite which is permanently reserved for the Jews?
“”Your claims about the Hebrew race is based upon which anthropological research, exactly? And Jews are not a race – they are a People, not the same thing at all.””
The Hebrew identity was quite clearly based on ethnicity. That ethnicity no longer exists. And if you think that dragging in the Native American issue justifies Israeli expansionism and ethnic cleansing, then I must say that your morality is 300 years behind every one elses. But that’s no surprise since Israel was never a civilized society to begin with.
Like I said, your classical zionist arguments are rubbish. Israel endures because of American weaponry and economic aid. Israel is a parasite that wouldn’t survive 2 days on its own. Remember the inflation of the 80s? When Reagen had to bail your sorry ass country out?
The world is full of peoples and/or races making claims and counter claims over disputed territory.
You make the classic mistake of believing that the Arab / Israeli dispute is only about land. If that were the case, there might be a solution. But the arguments are about much more – primarily the acceptance of Israel’s right to exist at all.
I understand from your tone that your a real hater, so facts and reasoning from a different perspective, have no meaning to you. And I have noticed a tendency for people that think like you to be especially sensitive to the issue of your Native Americans. The Indian wars didn’t end until 1918 – less than 100 years ago, almost modern history. So what’s with the 300 years?
And just one more fact. Israel’s GDP is around $300 billion. We have USA made weaponry because your government, and all previous governments, decided that this would be in Americas interest.
Go argue with them!
“”The world is full of peoples and/or races making claims and counter claims over disputed territory.””
This is true. So what makes your claim to Arab land so special? As one intellectual once said, if everyone were to claim historic borders the world would be in chaos. Your argument is again nonsense. And besides how far back does this argument go? Consider how ludicrous your logic is. Israel has a right to exist, but not at somebody elses expense. Like GSG said, if the country were located elsewhere there would not be a problem. Like most Jews I’ve met you are too drunk on your own victimhood and cannot fathom the humanity of the other. And I’m neither white nor American. I’m east Indian and I live in Canada. The genocide of the natives began hundreds of years ago and you’d think that morality would have evolved by the 19th century when Israel began its own antics in the Middle East. I don’t defend what whites have done to the natives, I never have.
“”And just one more fact. Israel’s GDP is around $300 billion. “”
Good for you. American aid, Diaspora Jewish charity plus cheap labour from the territories. Not to mention plundering the Palestianian’s water from the west bank Aquifer. Good job.
“”We have USA made weaponry because your government, and all previous governments, decided that this would be in Americas interest.
Go argue with them!””
That’s like trying to argue with the pilot to alter course when there is a hijacker standing behind him with a gun to his head. You have an interesting way of over simplifying things in an attempt to stifle argument. Jews own the media and have infested academia in alarming numbers. Americans have had their voice taken away from them. David Duke is right; America is starting to look like Israeli occupied territory.
Dota
I’m waiting…
Andy
Have you travelled back to Britain much since making aliyah? My cousins never came back to South Africa after they made aliyah in 1959.
I have been back a few times, but the Britain of today is not the country I left 24 years ago.
Multiculturalism and Political Correctness have changed the UK forever. And not for the better. But It’s not my problem now.
Why do you want to know?
Do you still hold a British passport? Would you be prepared to go back in the case of emergency? Avraham Burg encourages Israeli jews to get a second passport just in case. Generally, I steer clear of the likes of Burg because they are universalists and I support non violent nationalism and sympathize with separatist movements. But in this case, he is just advocating for the safety of Israeli jews.
I prefer to steer clear of the personal stuff, if you don’t mind.
So, please define your version of non violent nationalism.
I just want to understand if it includes suicide bombers, blowing up civilians in restaurants and coffee shops and buses, 10,000 rockets and mortars fired from Gaza – again only at civilian targets- etc. etc.
Or do you define this as justifiable resistance?
Relax, I was defending Jews right to exist as a nation. I denounced Avraham Burg as a universalist and said I support nationalism as long as it’s non violent. I just meant that you might not be doing your kids a favor by keeping them in harm’s way. That is why I said that you should keep your British passport just in case.
@andyboy
Jews and Zionist Jews are the leading ones supporting Islamic separatist movements over Christians including two predominantly Muslim terror states in the heart of Europe.
Former Zionist Tom Lantos:
“Just a reminder to the predominantly Muslim-led governments in this world that here is yet another example that the United States leads the way for the creation of a predominantly Muslim country in the very heart of Europe. This should be noted by both responsible leaders of Islamic governments, such as Indonesia, and also for jihadists of all color and hue. The United States’ principles are universal, and, in this instance, the United States stands foursquare for the creation of an overwhelmingly Muslim country in the very heart of Europe”
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/deliso5.html
Dota
Sometimes muslims even support Palestinians against their own interests. Ahmadinejad is more concerned with the liberation of Palestine than the well being of his own country. I confess I was hostile at first because I thought you were among the “Palestine is more important than life” crowd. (Cyrus coined that phrase.) You know the non arab muslims who are far removed from the Palestinian cause but defend them with their lives, though they get nothing in return and are generally discriminated in the Arab world.
Dota I think it’s a big mistake to call the Palestinians to be underdogs because the whole muslim world is behind them and ready to shill for their cause. Sure it is completely kosher to champion the cause of of Kurds and Western Saharans in Western countries but I don’t see many in the muslim world advocating for them. I even heard Palestinians make disparaging remarks about Kurds.
GSG: “Sure it is completely kosher to champion the cause of of Kurds and Western Saharans in Western countries but I don’t see many in the muslim world advocating for them.”
And therein lies the hypocrisy of the Muslim world. The reason being that if Muslim countries began championing the Kurdish cause, countries like Iraq and Iran might have to give up parts of their territory for the formation of a Kurdish state. That ain’t happening. Israel is easier to scapegoat, and make no mistake, Arabs do scapegoat Israel. The ones who continue to suffer are the Palestinians. Israel remains a racist and imperialist abomination, an embarrassment to humanity, but Arab states are quite dysfunctional. That their education systems suck donkey nuts is not Israel’s fault. That their health care blows is not Israel’s fault. That the Khaleeji Arab youth are lazy turds who lack initiative is also not Israel’s fault.
@Gay State Girl
Muslims will support Muslims no matter what the cause even when they know it serves the interest of the US/NWO that’s why they are supported by the NWO.
The most oppressed people just now are the Serbs in Kosovo most of which have been ethnically cleansed through mass murder, terrorism, pogroms and organ removal among other things.
Now the KLA terrorist regime with German, EU and US backing has imposed a border blockade between Serbia and Serbs in Northern Kosovo.
http://rt.com/news/kosovo-takes-over-border-749/
Dota
Perhaps “infest” wasn’t the best choice of words. But for me I wish Jews would establish and attend their own institutions rather than infest and take over those built by another culture. I actually think Jews are the biggest ass kissers ever. Why would you part of an institution that excluded you in the first place.
@Dota
( whose reply button has disappeared)
Israel is making no claims to Arab Land. On the contrary, it is the Palestinians who are laying claim to Israeli land.
As Abbas made clear in his speech last week in which he referred to “63 years of occupation”. So his claim is not just to Judea and Samaria, but to the whole of Israel.
And I don’t think you can talk about victim hood to us. Name me another people who have been so victimised over the millennia.
My only point in relation to our GDP was to show you that we are far from being financially dependent on America. I think we can afford to live without your money more than you can afford to live without our friendship and support.
Your highjacker analogy was, perhaps, a tad insensitive co close to 9/11 – but I assume you are one of those who believe that we had something to do with that event also.
And your “Jews control the world ” outlook is straight from the “Protocols of the elders of Zion”.
But, from what I gather about your worldview, you probably believe those also.
I think we can afford to live without your money more than you can afford to live without our friendship and support.
HAHAHA!
Ah, Andyboy, you’re going to have to come up with some pretty spectacular evidence to back up that pretty spectacular claim.
Besides, Andyboy, it’s not just the money per se. It’s this country’s military secrets (which you wonderful “allies” of ours sold to China without hesitation), the fact that our military support to your country has allowed you to develop a very lucrative arms industry. Oh, and there’s probably a very good chance that you guys would have been subjected to sanctions or other forms of UN Security Council action had it not been for the U.S. protecting you on the stage of global diplomacy. I could go on.
Let me just ask a question: If the U.S. and Israel were to completely cut themselves off from one another, who do you think would be feeling the heat?
Andy
Stop embarassing yourself.
“”And I don’t think you can talk about victim hood to us. Name me another people who have been so victimised over the millennia.””
It’s on now! Time to whip out our victimhoods and start measuring 😀
I think I stopped playing “I’ll show you mine if you’ll show me yours” sometime in primary school.
Some of us have matured and moved on since then.
But, since you raise the issue, can you give me another example of a people who have suffered from persecution for, say, 3000 years?
You can’t call it victim hood of there are actual victims!
Who has been the victim of persecution for over 3000 years?
My contention was that Israel is obviously not financially depend on any country that contributes less than 1% to it’s current GDP.
The military aspect benefits both countries due to the great amount of co-operation on joint projects.
On the question of American political support, I have stated before that America always does what it perceives to be in its own best interests. You claim that it doesn’t know what its best interests are since all the decisions are made by Jews.
I understand that nothing will persuade you that the the Jews don’t control American policy. Are you saying that lobbying on Israel’s behalf is illegitimate?
Is the Arab American lobby also illegitimate?
I thought that your political system is influenced by lobbyists on every issue.
And your last question is just TOO hypothetical. I don’t see that happening any time soon – even with Obama.
And after Obama………………………………?
To all my friends on this site
Would I be correct in assuming that you are all somewhat less than ecstatic about the contents of your president’s address to the UN a short while ago?
Are you now working on the conspiracy theory response that the Jews wrote the speech and Obama was just the mouthpiece?
Or can you come up with something more original?
I mean, no talk of settlements, or 1967 borders, or Jerusalem as the PA capital?
Come on – give it your best shot!
Have a nice day!
Speaking of originality, you haven’t done anything but parrot textbook Zionist propaganda ever since you got here. Amusing, but ignorant.
Your response is not entirely unexpected.
Don’t you and your friends ever get tired of trying to outdo each other in your attempts to prove the extent of your hatred of all things Jewish or Israeli?
Rather than deal with the issues, you inevitably resort to personal insult – in your case I think this is the third or fourth time.
This is the height of your intellectual reply to my points?
When you repeat the claims of the Arabs or Palestinians, whose propaganda are you parroting?
On what basis do you assess that their narrative is the correct one, and mine is false?
Gut feeling? Intrinsic Jew Hatred? Rabid anti Zionism? Belief in a world Jewish conspiracy? Fear of the economic effect if the Arabs choose to use their control of oil as a weapon? You don’t like my name, or avatar?
Just like to know the basis for your prejudices!
And if that was your best shot, I don’t know if I want to hear your worst!
And now a word from our sponsor:
Extract from the address to the United Nations General Assembly by your president Obama:
“America’s commitment to Israel’s security is unshakeable, and our friendship with Israel is deep and enduring. And so we believe that any lasting peace must acknowledge the very real security concerns that Israel faces every single day. Let’s be honest: Israel is surrounded by neighbours that have waged repeated wars against it. Israel’s citizens have been killed by rockets fired at their houses and suicide bombs on their buses. Israel’s children come of age knowing that throughout the region, other children are taught to hate them. Israel, a small country of less than eight million people, looks out at a world where leaders of much larger nations threaten to wipe it off of the map. The Jewish people carry the burden of centuries of exile, persecution, and the fresh memory of knowing that six million people were killed simply because of who they were.
These facts cannot be denied. The Jewish people have forged a successful state in their historic homeland. Israel deserves recognition. It deserves normal relations with its neighbours. And friends of the Palestinians do them no favours by ignoring this truth, just as friends of Israel must recognize the need to pursue a two state solution with a secure Israel next to an independent Palestine.”
Is he “Parroting” Zionist propaganda ??
Andy
You want to restore your image and fight antisemitism? Well I can give you some ideas. You can start by keeping a low profile in international affairs and telling professional jews in the diaspora to do the same thing. Sure Israeli disaster relief is a nice gesture, but it only draws attention to you and reflects on your hypocrisy in the long run. Then you can abide by international law, I can guarantee it won’t be fun but it will be worth it if your goal is to improve Israel’s image and decrease antisemitism. It would be nice to acknowledge other people’s suffering and not just when it is convenient to do so. Then you can make amends with Germans and Eastern Europeans by recognizing some of the root causes of antisemitism in their countries and stop pimping out the Holocaust at every opportunity. The best way to fight antisemitism in Eastern Europe is to fight poverty and allow them to be proud of their culture without accusing them of antisemitism.
Gay Area Guy
Need I say more? Do you have anything to add?
@ GSG
Need I say more? Do you have anything to add?
No, I think you pretty much covered it.
@ Andy
Yes, President Obama is parroting Zionist propaganda. If you knew anything about domestic U.S. politics, you would know that he doesn’t do it out of some unconditional love for Israel.
I am sure that your president did not speak out of unconditional love for Israel – and I understand the point about your domestic politics.
What I would like you to explain (seriously) is why you are so obsessed with what you perceive to be excessive Jewish political influence.
Specifically, how did a group, comprising less than 2% of the entire population, come to have such power?
Am I wrong in assuming that a fundamental element of your entire political process is the existence and influence of lobby groups?
My dear lady,
Firstly, can you enlighten me as to what is a “professional ” Jew?
Does that imply that there are “amateur” Jews and, if so, what are the differences ?
If I understand your point about Israel’s disaster relief contributions correctly, you are saying that our actions are not for humanitarian purposes – just for political PR.
That’s a bit of a sick allegation, even for this forum. Should America stop printing “US AID” in big letters on all the food and supplies it sends overseas? You mean to tell me that there is no political self interest in any of the aid programs – apart from Israel, of course!
Speaking of International Law, the recently published UN “Palmer report” stated that Israel’s blockade of Gaza was perfectly justified and legal under International Law.
Of course, since this finding was in Israel’s favour, it was immediately rejected by the anti- Israel lobby, which, it would seem, accepts critical reports ONLY.
I don’t recall, in any of my posts, labouring the Holocaust issue, other than to point out at one time, that it was part of a pattern of persecution that had continued for millennia.
And, can you enlighten me on the “root causes” of Eastern European antisemitism and it’s connection to the local culture?
A professional jew is a jew who works for a politicized jewish organization such as the ADL, CJP, AJC, or ZOG.
I am experiencing delusions of grandeur and often feel as if the weight of the world is on my shoulders. Is that normal?
“I am experiencing delusions of grandeur and often feel as if the weight of the world is on my shoulders. Is that normal?”
No, it’s not normal. Let me be honest with you, your opinions are vapid and trivial and I believe it has had no effect on anyone who reads them.
OTOH, you are an intelligent, bright person that’s a real positive for this blog.
I hope that gets you down to Earth.
Thank you.
You’re welcome. Glad I could go there with you.
My opinions are anything but vapid.
A simple “thank you” thus uttered disqualifies further speculation
“My opinions are anything but vapid.”
Really? How many balloons must I puncture to keep you on Earth’s surface?
You’re opinions are the definition of vapid. Arising from nothing and moving to nothing and having no solid core.
OTOH, you’ve got personality+. Be happy with that. I believe at bottom Jews value great personality more than anything else. So that’s like the ultimate compliment.
It would be unrealistic and counter productive to expect Jews to become less rich and powerful as they are a high IQ group but it would be fair to ask them to keep their Jewish identity out of the professional world unless they work in the jewish community. And not to invoke their jewishness in non religious charitable causes because that is pretty tired already.
Don’t get so uptight whenever you hear something that resembles jewish culture. Some people equate the terms “Harvard lawyer” or “liberal New Yorker” with “jew” and get offended when one uses those terms in a critical context, no matter how supportive of Israel that person may be. Don’t do it; it turns people off.
@ GSG
Re: Jewish success
Yes, it’s hard to fault Jews for their success considering their high intelligence and embrace of intellectual pursuits.
(Jewish tribalism and ethnic networking or not, you don’t win that many nobel prizes by being intellectually inept)
But at the same time, you are right that they would do well to keep their Jewish identity out of their professions.
(unless it’s Larry David in Curb Your Enthusiasm, when him invoking his Jewishness is just plain hilarious)
Re: Terms that resemble Jewish culture
I know exactly what you’re talking about. I once knew a Jewish guy who was going on a rant about how anti-Semites use the term “Hollywood liberals” as code for “Jews.” He basically said, “yeah, they say ‘Hollywood liberal’, but I know who they’re really referring to.”
True, Jews are disproportionately (or even predominantly) New York/Hollywood liberals and Harvard lawyers, but I don’t think your average angry white anti-liberal person has Jews in mind when he rails against New York liberals.
Let’s just say that if the majority of these white gentile conservative types whom many Jews always accuse of anti-Semitism were really as anti-Semitic as they thought, things would be a bit different here.
BAG
Do you think Macdonald’s idea of limiting Jewish presence in universities by imposing a quota on them would work? Do you think that in time Jews could be shepherded into blue collar jobs and out of positions of influence? This might be tricky since the tribe is hostile towards physical labour which they consider to be beneath them and fit for the goyim.
Do you think Macdonald’s idea of limiting Jewish presence in universities by imposing a quota on them would work?
It would be impractical, but I wouldn’t be opposed to it.
It’s never a good idea to allow a minority group to acquire too much power or influence.
Sooner or later, what you just said is going to apply to East Asians as well, but that’s for another time and place.
I am always curious as to why, when the issue of minority quotas is raised, it seems to apply, exclusively, to Jews.
Why not Blacks? or Chinese? or Women? or Gays?
Why is there this obsession with targeting Jews?
What are you afraid of?
“Sooner or later, what you just said is going to apply to East Asians as well, but that’s for another time and place.”
True, if you limited the Jews, you’d have consider the E.Asian at MIT or Berkeley. Obviously way “over-represented”. I’m against manipulation of this sort, but it’s already going on as you know. You’re aware of the higher obstacles Asians face in acceptance to the “elite” schools, no doubt. So actually you’re just saying get rid of the pretense and hypocrisy and make a transparent and hard number limit. Say 20% across the board.
Sounds Stalinistic, but you’re a closet communist, in addition to being a closet facist? LOL. It’s a interesting blend, there BAG. Fruity.
@Dota & BAG
Unless he has elaborated on this issue recently he did write or say that he advocated a quota system for Jews in universities/colleges. He used that as an example of quotas for affirmative action that if it was applied against Jews representing their overall population there numbers and influence would be severely reduced.
I was editing comment and noticed the mistake. I meant to write ” he did NOT write or say “
Dota
You can’t “force” anyone to pursue blue collar professions since we live in a free society but you can limit people from positions of influence. There will never a significant percentage of jews working in blue collar professions that require manual labor simply because physical strength is not our strong point. I would never work in a blue collar profession because I know I could not be successful at it. This is a fact that MacDonald will have to accept, whether he likes it or not. However, I hope he would be satisfied if the majority of Jews were middle class proessionals.
Jews currently make up approximately 0.2% of the world’s population and less than 2% of the US population
The percentage of Jews awarded Nobel and other international prizes is (approximately) as follows:
Nobel
Chemistry (31 prize winners, 20% of world total, 27% of US total)
Economics (28 prize winners, 42% of world total, 55% of US total)
Literature (13 prize winners, 12% of world total, 27% of US total)
Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)4
Physics (47 prize winners, 25% of world total, 36% of US total)
Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 27% of world total, 40% of US total)
Other
Jewish Recipients of the Kyoto Prize (25% of recipients)
Jewish Recipients of the Wolf Foundation Prize (33% of recipients)
Jewish Recipients of the US National Medal of Science (38% of recipients)
Muslims, who constitute 21 percent of the world’s population of around 6.83 billion, have produced only nine Nobel laureates ( and that includes Arafat, who was an unrepentant terrorist and Sadat who lost a war of aggression that he launched against Israel)
And your explanation is…………………………..?
Not this shit again. This Andy guy is a real cocksucker. He is re-posting Islamophobic crap that was all the rage after 9/11 on internet forums. If you check your little list, there ain’t a whole lot of East and South Asian Nobel winners in the sciences, either, of any religion. Hell, not even Russians. That was a fact of the 19th and 20th centuries.
But, since we are on the topic…
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18546-iran-showing-fastest-scientific-growth-of-any-country.html
After your done reading it…I lone you some mouthwash.
Wow! You have nothing better to do than trawl for old posts? Even I had trouble finding it.
Of course, since then a few more Jews have been added to the list, including 1 Israeli.
And 1 Muslim.
So the math is now:
Israel – 6 million Jews – 10 prizes.
Muslim world – 1.4 billion 10 prizes.
Just a fact. I make no other claim.
And if the Iranians are moving that fast, I hope our defence people are making the necessary plans to deal with the potential problem.
Regarding your kind offer of the mouthwash; quite frankly with all your references to shit and cocksucking I have to decline.
I just don’t know where it’s been!
And if the Iranians are moving that fast, I hope our defence people are making the necessary plans to deal with the potential problem.
By “our” defense people, I assume you mean the United States? Israel by itself can’t do shit about it. Iran and Israel are dick-waving each other at a distance.
By “our” defense people, I assume you mean the United States?
@ Cyrus
LOL.
Oh yes, god forbid that Israel actually have to do too much dirty work. Better to get the American goyim to fight their enemies in the Middle East.
Oh, but I forgot, Israel is a wonderful strategic asset and our best friend in the world!
@andyboy
“Economics (28 prize winners, 42% of world total, 55% of US total)”
With the state the global economic system is in right now I wouldn’t brag about that.
“Although his alleged sexual exploits are making waves, it is Israel, not women that is in former IMF Chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn’s heart. In an interview with the newspaper “Liberation” back in April, just over a month before he made headlines for attempted rape charges (that are looking increasingly shaky), DSK told the French daily that only three things could prevent him from becoming the next president of France – his money, his women and his Judaism.
The fallen-from-grace financier recounted an interview he gave some years back with the “Tribune Juive”(The Jewish Tribune), in which he said “I wake up every morning and think about how I can help Israel.”
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/dsk-has-israel-in-his-heart-1.371773
BAG and Hacienda
“Sooner or later, what you just said is going to apply to East Asians as well, but that’s for another time and place.”
“True, if you limited the Jews, you’d have consider the E.Asian at MIT or Berkeley. Obviously way “over-represented”. ”
I beg to differ. Asians are not Jews. We adapt and assimilate. We do not infiltrate and subvert the host culture for our own ulterior interests. Having said this however, perhaps the quota system can be implemented for Asians with regards to positions of influence. Perhaps for the house and senate. Perhaps in certain professions. Perhaps in the media. Perhaps the mainstream media should remain in the hands of whites while alternative media outlets with only limited regional circulation/influence can be handed over to minorities. These would still be held up to the same journalistic standards as the mainstream media however. The monstrosity that the Jews have created should not be feasible to future generations.
@ John UK
The idea was attributed to MacDonald, it was a second hand source so it might not have been too reliable. Anyhow the idea is out there and it may have some merit imo.
“Asians are not Jews. We adapt and assimilate. We do not infiltrate and subvert the host culture for our own ulterior interests.”
“The monstrosity that the Jews have created should not be feasible to future generations.”
What did any Jew ever do to you that makes you spew out such venom.
It must have been something pretty traumatic.
And, to you, all Jews are the same? Not even one with a redeeming feature?
The fact that you appear to be consumed with such overwhelming hatred makes me wonder – how do you live with yourself?
And, feeling and projecting such hatred, how does anyone else live with you?
I have pity for your significant other!
Dota
I’m glad you used the term “infiltrate” instead of “infest” this time. I don’t mind imposing quotas on Jews because that may create resentment among Jews and other liberals and they would stop donating $ to institutions that impose quotas They would give their money elsewhere presumably to Jewish institutions which I think is a good thing, as it would strengthen Jewish institutions. I think Jews should attend and send their kids to Jewish schools, as Catholics often do. I wouldn’t mind if non jews attended these institutions but they would have to assimilate to our culture instead of the other way around.
Dota
Relax, I don’t think jews walk around saying “the goyim can do that dirty work,” (unless it’s in regards to the military.) and I wouldn’t mind forcing anyone who advocated, engineered or benefited from the “War on Terror” to serve in the military. But you can’t “force” jews to take up blue collar jobs because we live in a free society that does not dictate people’s profession. There will never be a high percentage of Jews working in fields that require manual labor simply because we would not be successful. I don’t think that intellectual or yuppie Jews would fit in to the blue collar world either. No group should feel obligated to have a portion of its members working in blue collar jobs and it does not reflect badly on them if they don’t. We don’t pursue these fields simply because it is not part of our culture to do so and that is okay. I do take issue with the prejudice that exists in the Jewish community towards less educated jews.
In regards to my jewish separatist views, choose your pick. If you advocate a form of quotas against a group, you have to expect a form of separatism and that is okay too.
“”Relax, I don’t think jews walk around saying “the goyim can do that dirty work,” (unless it’s in regards to the military.) “”
I never said you said that… I’d read about that somewhere and a jewish friend of mine in Toronto confirmed it.
“”But you can’t “force” jews to take up blue collar jobs because we live in a free society that does not dictate people’s profession. “”
I never used the word ‘force’. I used the term ‘shephard’ ie gradually re adjust jews to blue collar jobs by restricting access to higher education. This would certainly take time.
Dota
There will never be a significant percentage of Jews working in blue collar jobs. There are multiple reasons for this. But you’ll just have to accept it.
By blue collar jobs, what are you referring to? I can accept the idea of jewish girls becoming nurses (as many orthodox girls already are) and willing jewish men to become carpenters or technicians (though I don’t think they’d be welcome in police departments.) but I don’t think you’ll ever see many jewish factory workers or house keepers. I don’t know if this was your intention, but if you were a freight train manager, would you want scrawny jewish boys loading freight cars? How about if you ran a whore house? Would you want fat, ugly jewish girls working for you? 🙂
Ultimately this would backfire and you would kill your movement before it even started. You can’t punish young jews for what older generations did. I hope you understand that as Gay Area Guy and Wade said that was a bad idea.
I have an even better idea. How about my parents quit their jobs and we go on welfare and mug people on the street? Would you like us better then? 🙂
“”I have an even better idea. How about my parents quit their jobs and we go on welfare and mug people on the street? Would you like us better then?””
Perhaps. I prefer visible enemies to invisible ones.
Pastor Hagee used the term “shepherded” in regards to Jews as well.
Dota
Actually, I predicted that the desire to attend expensive, big name universities and the love of abstract, non applicable intellectualism would be the downfall of secular jews as well as other affluent liberal jerks. But forcibly reducing the number of Jews in higher education would only radicalize assimilated young jews.
I understand it is a fun fantasy but it will never work. MacDonald only intended it as a thought experiment. He wants to limit the percentage of jews in influencial positions, but even he would never force Jews into blue collar professions if their academic potential demonstrated otherwise.
This is one reason to support Zionism though. In a strictly jewish only state (no guest workers), there would have to be Jews working in manual labor and blue collar work. Michael Chabon highlighted this in his novel The Yiddish Policeman’s Union.
Dota
You still haven’t answered my question. What do you mean by blue collar jobs?
missed it, sorry. Physical labour, skilled labour trades ect
“Physical labour, skilled labour trades ect”
Please elaborate.
Dota
Please elaborate. I have respect for those who work in blue collar professions but would never want to work in one myself.
Dota
Just thought of another glitch in your plan. Are you aware that there are over 300 universities that offer BA’s in the US and many more abroad. It would be possible to limit the amount of Jewish students at the most prestigious colleges, but it would be possible for every young Jew to get their degree elsewhere unless you tried to limit the amount of Jews going to college period, which would be impossible.
Dota (I don’t know if you’re listening at this point
I know Jews who clean houses as a side job. They mostly work for other Orthodox Jews
At this point, quotas would be a terrible idea. It would unfairly punish younger Jews who had no involvement in planning the current or for our ongoing support for Israel, and radicalize them for generations to come and it would provide fodder for the Jewish and Zionist organizations. It is possible to shepherd jews out of positions of power without making them work in physical or manual labor. The majority of Jews I know are middle class or upper middle class professionals.
Of course I wouldn’t mind because I think it would strengthen the Jewish community rather than weaken it.
I DO consider physical labor beneath me (I’m tiny, weak, and uncoordinated and could never succeed at it. I’m more suited for the sciences but you would deprive that to me because of the reason stated and because the sciences are male territory and you are worried that I would sissify it) and I would shoot myself rather than work in a vocational profession. Say whatever you want about me.
@ GSG
You make some good points. As someone who has constantly been given the white guilt trip, I can understand how you object to young Jews being punished for the sins of their parents and grandparents.
I also don’t believe that Jews should be forced to work in manual labor jobs, because that just violates several fundamental principles regardless of the JQ.
Now, that being said, I do think that SOMETHING needs to be done to curb Jewish power and influence, because Jews have way too much power and influence for their small numbers.
Either that, or Jews need to de-Jewify themselves when it comes to their professions.
Believe it or not, I wouldn’t mind that Jews are grossly overrepresented at elite universities and professions if it weren’t for the fact that many of them are anti-white and pursue Jewish interests at the expense of white gentile interests.
I don’t want to sound hateful or too anti-Semitic, but as Dota said, I prefer dealing with a visible enemy to an invisible one, and to the extent that I am frustrated with Jews, it has to do with the fact that they are an invisible enemy of white America in many ways.
They look white, and for the most part act white in their everyday lives, yet many of them don’t really identify as white (their identity is first and foremost Jewish) and in many cases are actively hostile towards whites.
GSG, you once said that this is changing among young Jews, and I sincerely hope that you’re right, and in that case these old Jews can’t be replaced by young Jews fast enough.
On another note, one of the reasons why I’m less hostile toward Asian American overrepresentation is because as a racial group (Yes, racial group. When I speak of Asians, I speak of yellow people like the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc. I don’t include Indians, Pacific Islanders, or Middle Easterners as “Asian”) they at least are easily distinguishable from whites, and their overrepresentation and disproportionate influence would be to easier to point out, scrutinize, and do something about.
Although, admittedly, I am growing more skeptical about Asian Americans, despite the fact that I get along with them well and that they’re generally nice and decent people.
I have a long explanation as to why, but in a nutshell, let’s just say that it’s because I know about the recent history of the JQ.
Why are you skeptical about Asians? I don’t know about California but they don’t pursue anti white interests in the Northeast.
Why are you skeptical about Asians?
Even I sometimes have trouble articulating why, but here goes…
I want to take you back in time some 5-6 decades ago. Think of a group that, like Asian Americans today, was disproportionately successful academically and economically.
This same group frequently claimed to be a marginalized, distrusted, and ultimately discriminated against minority group.
But, lo and behold, in just a few decades or so, this group goes from being oh-so-oppressed and marginalized to wielding tremendous power and influence, even leading people like your favorite Phillip Weiss to hint that they’re the “New WASPs,” and to the point where they now even discriminate against the evil WASP/gentile oppressors who held them back.
Now, when I analyze Asian Americans today, to be sure, there are differences, but I can’t help but notice some similarities.
Like Jews of the past (and, of course, today), Asian Americans claim to be a victimized minority group, subjected to the vicious “perpetual foreigner” and “model minority” canards, underrepresented in the highest echelons of power, regarded with distrust and fear by the white majority, etc. Even while they continue to make rapid gains in education, politics, and finance (the mayors of S.F. and Oakland in the Gay Area are both Asian).
And of course, like Jews of the past, Asian American influence is only going to continue to grow, to the point where they come to dominate certain institutions.
Continued…
Gay Area Guy
Sam Yun says that he wants to become the first Asian American mayor of Boston. Where did he announce it from? San Francisco of course.
Now, of course, in the interest of objectivity and fairness, I must now note some differences between Jewish Americans of the past and Asian Americans of today.
1. Unlike Jewish Americans of pre-1960s America, Asian Americans do not dominate Hollywood, much of the media (I don’t think that Jewish media influence was as large back then as it is today, but I don’t have exact info on that). Etc
2. With a few exceptions, Asian Americans for the most part do not seem to be constantly at war with mainstream white American society, and more often than not seek to assimilate, fit in, and go about their lives. This is also evidenced by their high intermarriage rates with whites (with the exception of the Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Hmong).
Even among American born Chinese men (ABC’s, in some peoples’ lexicon), who are often portrayed as being on the losing end of white/Asian marriages, about 30% of those who do get married marry white women.
Point two, of course, applies to your everyday flesh-and-blood Asian.
The ORGANIZED Asian American community, on the other hand, is very much like the Jewish community.
Prominent academics like Frank Wu, the late Ronald Takaki and other Asian American CRT’s, groups like the Asian Law Caucus, etc, are not radically different from the ADL, or other elements of the organized Jewish community when it comes to their cries of victimization, their embrace of open borders and multiculturalism, and their pathologization of white Americans.
I don’t dislike Asians and I get along with them well, but I’m not a yellowphile either, because I recognize that they have different interests from whites, that the two groups won’t often see eye-to-eye, and that they could eventually come to occupy a position that Jews do, which wouldn’t be good.
(especially with China on the rise. Imagine a Chinese American “China Lobby” with as much power as the Jewish “Israel Lobby”)
I agree that Asians are the new WASPs rather than Jews
I’ve decided not to get uptight about Phil Weiss because he has no power whatsover. He was a mediocre journalist at best, working for a third rate newspaper (the New York Observer.) Now if his anti Tribal and Philo Arab views were mainstream in left wing circles, it would be a different story.
There is already an Indian Lobby modeled after the Israeli Lobby.
But China and India have more to offer in return than a tiny country like Israel and neither would rely on and alienate the US as much.
For the most part Asians have adopted the best of Western Civilization (Christianity, arts and sciences, classical music and ballet) and helped preserve them which can not be said about Jews, who tend to be more independent thinkers and reformed as well as perverted Western culture.
“For the most part Asians have adopted the best of Western Civilization (Christianity, arts and sciences, classical music and ballet) and helped preserve them which can not be said about Jews, who tend to be more independent thinkers and reformed as well as perverted Western culture.”
Is that why Asians have fought 2 major wars against America, draw 1, win 1.
And pretty much fucked up WASP world as it was known for good? What exactly have Jews accomplished besides dick sucking Anglos the last 50 years?
I keep saying, baby, you’ve got to broaden your vision.
“I don’t want to sound hateful or too anti-Semitic,”
In that case, perhaps you should consider reviewing your language. This entire forum reeks of antisemitism – and you are one of the leading protagonists.
I know that you can’t speak for the others but I am really curious as to the basis.
Anyone care to explain?
Could be the fact that you stole some land at gunpoint and then said, oh some stupid book said I could do it.- It’s all good! Hint- when you do that- make sure that you are not surrounding yourself with millions of blood-enemies who want to kill you for doing that.
You are a stupid “Israeli by choice”- why don’t you move to da Bronx? Friendlier neighborhood! Oops…did I say something Anti-Smegmetic?
OMG! I just violated my own “Comments Rules”!
“”“I don’t want to sound hateful or too anti-Semitic,”
In that case, perhaps you should consider reviewing your language. This entire forum reeks of antisemitism – and you are one of the leading protagonists. “:
Your accusing BAG? I resent that. It should be me. 🙂
You know, Andyboy, I used to feel somewhat bad about my critical and sometimes harsh views of Jews.
But reading your posts, I now realize why I ceased feeling bad a long time ago.
You couldn’t be more of a hasbara agent or professional Jew if you tried.
I know you don’t like MacDonald very much, GSG, but he wrote a very thought provoking and informative article on Jewish overrepresentation at elite universities. Click on the links to articles by Connelly and others and you’ll find that white gentiles are grossly underrepresented.
So much for “white privilege.”
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/09/jews-at-us-colleges-and-universities/?show=comments
I don’t mind MacDonald so much and I think Dota took him out of context. He was mainly referring to Jews in the administration of Ivy League universities and the Seven Sisters rather than the largely jewish student body. I think the reason Jews and Asians are over represented is because they apply in greater numbers and under privileged minorities and blue collar whites apply in small numbers. But MacDonald never said he would deprive young Jews of a college education and force them to work in physical or manual labor positions. He is a smart man and knows that it would kill his movement.
BAG
Firstly, I am very happy to learn that you actually read my posts, although i note that you don’t often respond to the details.
I regard your assertion that I am a “professional Jew” as a compliment , I do my best.
You know what they say: “one man’s Hasbara is another man’s truth”.
DOTA
I have no objection if you wish to receive the accolade as most rabid
antisemite on this forum. Be my guest!
MOTT69
I find myself at a great disadvantage having to respond to the lucid, rational,and, obviously, deeply thought out intellectual arguments that you put forward.
Apart from the gross historical inaccuracy regarding the formation of Israel, your post reveal an interesting characteristic.
Are you anti-Jewish or just anti-Zionist? Or both?
And, whilst I may be an Israeli by choice, I do hope that your other associates on this forum do not automatically assume that I must ,therefore, by definition, be “stupid”.
Epithets, such as this, are no substitute for rational argument, even if you do find them personally satisfying.
AndyBoy- I’ll apologize for going ad hominem on you right out of the gate. I don’t think you are stupid as in “lacking intelligence”- what I found to be stupid was your incredulous attitude about encountering “anti-Sem type language.”
I went to your website- you are obviously a sharp guy, very liberal, good writer. etc. However, the bias, politically, of your whole site was pretty alarming. It’s pro-Israeli propaganda disguised as thoughtful rationalism.
It’s that kind of attitude that I find to be stupid. Also, your feigned, fake “shock” at the “anti-Sem” language on this site. That’s stupid- this is a site for people who are racial/ethnic realists and are not offended easily. If you can’t handle it- go to a P.C. site, or a Neo-Con site, where no criticism of Jews, or Israel, is allowed.
FYI- I’m not anti-Jewish, but you could put me down as an anti-Zionist, I guess, only it’s way too late for that- Israel is here- unfortunately.
And, no, I don’t love Palis, Arabs, or Islam, either.
I do know the history of Israel’s “establishment”- it was unprecedented, illegal, and incredibly foolish- one of the dumbest things ever done, by anyone, anywhere.
When you steal land from other people and claim that your tribal book says you could do it, just be sure that you do it in a place that doesn’t leave you surrounded by millions of people that want to kill you- that is stupid…
Firstly. let me make it clear. I am not incredulous about the language here, I knew what the site was about before I decided to “jump into the Lion’s den”
( sorry, I guess that’s a quote from the stupid tribal book). Being here at all is a kind of intellectual challenge for which a thick skin would seem to be a prerequisite.
You should know, if you care, that I have no greater respect for the book you refer to than you, and I am a violent opponent of any form of organised religion. I belong to a very small group of people who could be classified as secular- even Atheist – Nationalists.
My Zionism is not based on any religious belief.
Golda Meir was once asked if she believed in God. She replied “I believe in the Jewish People – and they believe in God.
That’s as close a definition of where I’m coming from as I can give you.
Regarding my (rather new) website. I’m still finding my feet there. But, what you call pro- Israeli propaganda is my truth. Self evidently, it is not your truth, and likely never will be. And I would be interested to learn your definition of bias when it comes to political comment. If biased simply means expressing a viewpoint that differs from yours then, I guess I must be biased!
But I did post, somewhere on my blog, something to do with the right of free expression!
Truth, in terms of historical narrative, is relative, not absolute, And even the narrative changes over the years as revisionist and post revisionist historians rewrite history.
It’s good to learn that you are not as anti-Jewish as some others here. Your anti-Zionism ( assuming that you truly separate the two) is a matter for you and your conscience and your political world view.
You are entitled to it – just as I am entitled to mine. For example, regarding the creation of Israel; I agree that it was unprecedented; I disagree that it was illegal and whether it was foolish will be decided by future generations according to how things turn out.
Of course the land was not stolen; I think even you know that,
Purchased -yes!
Allocated by the UN- yes!
Acquired in a series of defensive wars- yes!
Stolen from a non existent entity, currently referred to as Palestinians – no!
And, finally, I don’t think I would want to be on a P.C. or Neo-Con site.
Who would I find to argue with?
Have a good week.
@AndyB- Good to know you have a thick skin, you will need it here. We can debate the wisdom and legality of the Z- Experiment any time.
Have you considered becoming a speechwriter for Netan-Yahoo?
You have a good week too- and Happy Pali Statehood Day!
@AB- Oh, yeah, I forgot to give you my definition of bias. It’s two things- one is intrinsic bias, i.e.: “I’m Jewish, and I live in Israel, therefore Jews and Israelis are all wonderful.”
The second definition is very close to the concept of propaganda: the presenting of only one, exagerrated, side of an issue, while also exaggerating the deficiencies of any opposing views. That’s more than just “your opinion”, that’s not merely “freedom of speech”- it’s the presentation of a distorted view with the aim of tricking the audience into being persuaded. That’s propaganda.
Re: your “facts”: “U.N.” (actually only 33 Western countries- many of which wanted their Jews to move there because they did not want them) allotted 44% of the land (mostly non-arable) to the Arabs- who were 67% of the pop. Has Israel abided by that agreement? Since when do Israelis go along with anything the U.N. says?
“Purchased”? Rich Jews from abroad had purchased a toltal of 6% of the land by 1947. The Lousiana Purchase this isn’t. Buying land in a country doesn’t buy you a state- where does it work like that?
The Palis are a “non-existent entity”? Wishful thinking does not make it so. This kind of talk makes you Israelis sound like insane, irrational…let’s just say WWII-era Germans. They wished that Jews were a “non-existent entity”.
“Defensive” Wars… Israelis remind me of nobody more than the Nazis themselves when they talk like this- the Nazis were experts at playing the victim card- Israelis have obviously done their homework on Goebbels. This is the burglar prosecuting the homeowner for attempted murder- Are you sure you’re not Bibi writing under a pseudonym?
Have a nice weekend!
@ Mott
LOL
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
By the way, I think it’s just worth mentioning that the whole UN “partitioning,” from the Palestinian standpoint, was bullshit. The Palestinians never asked for Jews to pour into Palestine, and they never got to have any say on having their traditional homeland bisected.
Oh, and even before the 1948 war, the Yishuv in Palestine was intent on ethnically cleansing Palestinians to create a Jewish state. They just used the 1948 war as a good opportunity to do so.
Andyboy, look up “transfer” is you think I’m full of it. They conceived of “transfer” well before the Final Solution, and as someone who’s looked into the history, such “transfer” would have taken place even without the Nazi holocaust, just in case you planned on using that card.
I don’t exactly love the Pali’s (I don’t hate them either), but if I were a Palestinian, I would have every reason to hate Jews and what they stand for. Oh, and not just you wonderful Israelis, but all those Israel firsters in the U.S. and Canada as well.
Jews were engaging in armed ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as early as 1932. I have seen reports from the Palestinian Communist Party or whatever it was called to the CPSU around that time that described it in detail. It’s more or less what the settlers are doing now to clear the Palestinians off land so the settlers can steal it for themselves. Nothing much has changed in 80 years.
I question your assertion that Israel was ever the “traditional homeland” of some entity, known only for the past 30/40 years as “the Palestinian people”.
And, given that around 800,000 – 1 million Jews were forced to flee from Arab countries during the period around Israel’s creation, I think the situation may be more accurately described as an “exchange of populations”. Not an unknown phenomenon in modern history.
I don’t think that I can be accused of ever playing the “Holocaust card” on this forum.
And as for hatred of Jews by Palestinians , Arabs, or anyone else, for that matter, it seems that this is an endemic characteristic. of much of mankind.
i don’t justify it, or condemn it. i just learn to live with it.
I question your assertion that Israel was ever the “traditional homeland” of some entity, known only for the past 30/40 years as “the Palestinian people”.
And of course, this is the biggest contradiction in Zionist propaganda. On the one hand, you would have us believe that there is no such thing as a Palestinian (to parrot the odious Golda Meir), and that despite the fact that they’ve lived there all their lives, they have no legitimate claim to their land.
Yet, at the same time, a bunch of Yiddish speaking and other Jews from Europe (like yourself) have a right to live there/establish a Jewish state on the basis of the fact that Jews used to live there 2,000 years ago.
Re: Jews from Arab countries
Let’s just say that the Ashkenazi establishment in Israel played a very big role in “encouraging” those Jews to move. Some Ashkenazi holocaust survivors even had Mizrahi kids kidnapped so they could adopt them.
Israel tried especially hard to get Moroccan Jews to come there, which sparked a few complaints from the Moroccan Jewish community.
@ Mott
I once saw a sign at an Israeli apartheid demonstration that said “Hitler taught you well, Israhell.”
For me, the whole Israel/Palestine conflict is yet another reason why this leftist belief in the “wisdom of the oppressed” is bullshit.
Actually I’m with Golda on this one.
I Know that there never was a separate entity of a “Palestinian Arab Nation ” ever. Just a clever PR creation in the past 30/40 years.
And even you know that there has been a continuous Jewish presence in this land for at least 2000 years.
Where the Arabs came from,and when and why is a matter of historical record.
And this alleged kidnapping of a few children has no connection whatsoever to the almost 1,0 million Jews forced out of Arab states.
And FYI, Golda was not at all odious. i met her. She was a very nice lady!
I’m Jewish, I live in Israel, and I can tell you from personal experience that not all Jews, and not all, Israelis are “wonderful”.
They are just human beings with all the usual foibles and strengths and weaknesses of humanity. So I don’t think I qualify for your definition of “intrinsic bias”.
Regarding propaganda; I don’t think that every comment on every subject can be qualified with an “on the one hand but, then, on the other hand” approach. I put my viewpoint, other put their viewpoints. The readers will have to weigh up and judge for themselves which one they accept.
I never said that Jews had had purchased all the land, or even a majority of it. In any event, this was not the deciding factor in the decision of the UN regarding Jewish statehood.
The Palestinians are an entity today as a result of a combination of massive self delusion, great PR and a gullible world totally unconcerned with historical fact. They were not an entity in 1947.
And as to your perception of the nature of Israel’s defensive wars, I am really curious as to how else you define them.
Wars of aggression, maybe?
You mean like Iraq or Afghanistan?
And I’m not certain that Bibi would be flattered by your assumption; I’ll have to give some thought as to how I feel about it!
The Palestinians are an entity today as a result of a combination of massive self delusion, great PR and a gullible world totally unconcerned with historical fact. They were not an entity in 1947.
Not an entity before 1947. You mean like Israelis?
Oh, and Palestinian identity does have deep roots, based on historical and religious connections unrelated to Zionism, particularly their connections to Jerusalem.
Wars of aggression, maybe?
You mean like Iraq or Afghanistan?
Well, considering you nice Israelis and your treacherous Israel firster co-ethnics in the U.S. played a major role in getting the U.S. to fight in Iraq (and would gladly have us do similar dirty work for you in Iran if given the opportunity), I find that funny coming from an Israeli such as yourself.
Jesus Christ, Andyboy (oops, is saying “Jesus Christ” a form of anti-Semitism?), not even Abe Foxman is as blind as you are.
I see how deeply modern Jewish identity is rooted in the the persecution narrative and I cringe.
@Gay State Girl
Have you heard of Gilad Atzmon?
@andyboy
What do you think of Ron Paul?
I don’t like Gilad Atzmon because he is a universalist and I’m a strong supporter of all non violent forms of nationalism and ethnic identity. He urges jews to “join the human family.” Well I’m sorry but the human family is just a pipedream. Tribalism and religious sectarianism are here to stay.
Yeah, Gilad is basically the Jewish equivalent of Robert Jensen. This whole “be x or be a human being” is just a load of shit, if you ask me.
There is no such thing as a generic human being. We all belong to groups.
You should read Adam Seligman who believes that encouraging embrace and affinity for other cultures and religions is not only unrealistic, but counter productive. We should instead tolerance and respect (in the old fashioned way, not the perverted form.) He has said that interfaith dialogues go nowhere. When we try to reconcile our differences, we end up with nothing at all..He has spent time with Muslims and Christians in the Balkans, with Muslims and secular Brits in Birmingham, England, and with Conservative Christians and homosexuals in Texas.
I have no particular opinion or knowledge of Ron Paul.
I try to stay out of American domestic politics, even though I am conscious that the outcome of your elections must impact us in some way.
But, I’ll look him up, if you insist!
@andyboy
I’m British not American but US policy in the region not just with Israel but with other Gulf state especially long time ally Saudi Arabia as well as Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, etc will chart the course of what is happening in the Mid East.
What, exactly, causes you to cringe?
It is an incontestable fact that Jews HAVE been persecuted for much of their history so, of course, this cannot be eliminated from the collective Jewish psyche.
The term “narrative” has come to be associated with promoting a particular viewpoint. But, in this particular case, what happened to the Jews is not a matter of interpretation. Debating WHY or HOW it happened is something else.
But do you also cringe at the Palestinians using their alleged history as a basis for their current claims.
And what about the Blacks in your country? Is the current non- black generation obliged to pay the price for real or alleged events that occurred hundreds of years ago?
Do you cringe for any other community?
It is an incontestable fact that Jews HAVE been persecuted for much of their history so, of course, this cannot be eliminated from the collective Jewish psyche.
A fact that gives your Zionist propaganda no more validity whatsoever. Besides, with the exception of a few spraypainted swastikas, anti-Semitism is basically a relic of the past in Western countries.
And yes, it CAN be eliminated from the Jewish psyche. It’s called “stop playing the victim and persecution card.”
There are many groups out there that have it far worse than Jews (and Jews hardly have it bad at all): Kurds, Hmong, etc, and they don’t have the right to establish a state by kicking people out.
Besides, if you’re so worried about anti-Semitism in Western countries, you should consider the extent to which Israel and Zionism play a role.
As anti-Zionist Jews of the early 20th century warned, the creation of a Jewish state would result in issues of dual loyalty among diaspora Jews.
And they’ve been proven correct, as evidenced by Israel firsters like Alan Dershowitz.
I think you understate the frequency and degree of anti-Semitic incidents in Western Europe. It’s a bit more violent than spray painting.
And I understand that your opposition to Mr Dershowitz is based on the fact that you don’t agree with what he says and dispute that he should have the freedom to say it.
I don’t claim to know the American constitution in any detail at all, but isn’t there something called the First amendment. Something to do with free speech?
Andyboy, we may have freedom of speech, but that DOESN’T mean that we have to LIKE all forms of speech.
And no, I don’t think good ol’ Professor Dershowitz should be forbidden from expressing his views. I just think he’s a despicable person for doing so.
Howeveer odious and hypocritical Dershowitz may be, he does make some good points on Arab hypocrisy regarding Arab support for the Palestinian cause vs. the Kurdish cause even though he doesn’t give a shit about Kurds and would dump them in a heartbeat if Israel wanted something from Turkey. He brought the Palestinian/Kurdish situation up with Ralph Nader and made Ralph Nader address his own hypocrisy, which I thought was brilliant.
@ Robert Lindsay whose reply button has vanished into the blogosphere
Something tells me that we are never going to resolve the question of “whose land is it anyway?” – not on this, and not on any other, forum,
But I’m quite happy to bat the ball back and forth for as long as you have the stamina.
You are most certainly welcome here on this forum. I tried to talk to you online the other day, but it seemed like you got mad and went away. We are very happy to have a hardline rightwing Zionist Jew on the forum. I am choosing not to engage you on this debate, instead letting my various commenters engage you. It’s nice you have you here as a dissenting voice. In case you are wondering, anti-Semites have a long term presence in the comments section, and of course anti-Israelis do too. The anti-Semites became an issue a while back, but we decided that we would not ban on ideology here. Instead, I just encourage Jews to fight the anti-Semites, which is what they ought to do anyway.
I don’t think Mott is even an anti-Zionist, as he feels that Israel ought to exist. Even I feel that the Jews ought to have a right to stay peacefully in that part of the world as long as they are here.
In case you are wondering, Gay State Girl is a Jewish Zionist.
I appreciate your reply and, honestly, the anti-Semitism doesn’t bother me so much since I have experienced this phenomenon in one form or another since I was 11 years old – and I survived!
I am always just curious to find out why any given individual has this prejudice and what is their personal hatred based on; or if they are just following the herd.
Regarding anti-Zionism, I tend to assume that there is a link in some minds to anti- Semitism but the arguments here always veer towards the political dimension and that’s fine also. But I have no expectation of any mind changing taking place here any time soon.
I absolutely was not aware that you tried to contact me – please feel free to do so at any time ( bearing in mind our time difference: it is now 14.50 here in sunny Eilat)
And, finally, “hardline, right wing Zionist Jew” is the nicest thing anyone has said to me since I first came to the forum. You must be mellowing in your old age!
Have a good week!
Many anti-Zionists are also anti-Semites, true. Jewish behavior WRT Zionism is pretty disgusting, so anti-Zionism tends to carry over of course. OTOH, I am coming from the Left here. My anti-Zionism as it were is strictly a moral position based on solid Left values. Considering what Zionism is like, it’s hard to see how anyone on the Left could ever support it!
But we on the Left actually do go to great lengths to not drift into actual anti-Semitism, because racism is not a Left value. So at least here there is an effort to be good. A lot of anti-Zionists reject the traditional conservative views of traditional anti-Semites – Jews as Commies, Jews as culture destroyers, Jews are vehicles of modernism, Jews as world controllers, Jews as liberals, Jews as enemies of nationalism and the nation, Jews as Christianity haters.
Going through that list, you can see that there is not much there for us on the Left! Antisemitism really is a rightwing philosophy. In fact, I have witnessed many leftwingers who drifted towards anti-Semitism as a consequence of anti-Zionism. In every single case, they also become more conservative or made alliance with fascists, etc.
There are some interesting exceptions. Russian Leftists are often anti-Semites as are Arab Leftists.
Antisemitism is fascinating to me, but I fear that you are hallucinating in a lot of cases. Zionists typically wildly exaggerate anti-Semitism as a consequence of their Zionism. One argument I make against anti-Semitism is that it’s the best that ever happened to Zionism! Zionists love anti-Semitism. They can’t get enough of it. By being an anti-Semite, you are just feeding the Zionist monster.
What about your old friend Lafayette Sennacherib? He is an judeophobe but shows no signs of right wing tendencies.
LS is an unusual case.
Unfortunately, unless I am wrong, he seems to be willing to make alliance with some fascists.
He had some negative experiences with Jews back in Prep school and at Uni. Apparently they beat him for some frivolous honor. I heard that the reason many wealthy Germans resorted to Nazism was because they cometed with Jewish students for honors.
I don’t really care what he says about Jews. It’s his reverence for all things “Palestinian” that gets my blood boiling.
Lindsay: To clarify I don’t say Israel “ought to exist”. I say it was a huge mistake that can’t be undone, apparently. So, its existence is just a fact now. Can anyone do anything about it? No, so the point is moot.
If the Jews emigrated there to live peacefully with the Arabs (they did not), or, if Arabs had no issue with it, I’d say, “fine”, to Israel. Neither is the case.
Israelis who try to bully people into “admitting” that Izrahell has a “right to exist”… can I scream now? Stupid, pointless, illogical question.
Did Nazi Germany have a “right to exist”? Dunno. The Amerindian tribes? Probably. Any people, any country, anywhere? Who knows? Do illegal Mexican trespassers have a right to exist? Yeah- in Mexico!
I’m not against Jews having a state either. Why shouldn’t they? I’m just against them having a state at another people’s expense. If Israel was located elsewhere, no problem.
I think I understand the basis of your ideological stance on Zionism. But it is a fact that anti-Semitism and anti -Zionism do go together in the minds of many critics of Israel and it’s policies.
I believe that their attitudes are visceral rather than rational. I’m not sure that they could even articulate their opposition to the Jewish State based on rational criteria.
Also I am not convinced that Zionists, at least not all Zionists, wallow in anti-Semitism to the degree you imply. Some do, but, frankly, it’s a prejudice we would be much happier to live without.
And, in the political battles for hearts and minds, everyone uses the PR weapons at their disposal. Whether that is moral or truthful is barely relevant in our media driven world. Winning is everything.
Nobody has been more successful than the Palestinians and their supporters in playing the underdog card. The problem is that Jews have been the subject of persecution for so many millennia that their status in this department is taken as a given; routine, virtually the norm.
The Palestinians, on the other hand, have the benefit of a relatively new sob story in the world chart of sob stories, so their narrative is much more attractive to a media jaundiced with centuries of the Jewish narrative.
The so called “Jewish lobby” which occupies so many column inches in this forum, is fighting an uphill battle against growing opposition, And if it’s efforts should ultimately fail, what do you think that the world is going to do with 8.0 million displaced Jews?
Nobody has been more successful than the Palestinians and their supporters in playing the underdog card.
LOL.
I find that so amusing. Look up the “holocaust industry,” if you think Palestinians are experts at playing the underdog card.
I’m afraid, good sir, that that honor goes to Jewry, particularly the Zionist strain. Only by relentlessly playing the underdog is a state with the 4th strongest military in the world constantly depicted by the Western media as under siege from a bunch of evil Ay-rabs shooting homemade rockets.
The so called “Jewish lobby” which occupies so many column inches in this forum, is fighting an uphill battle against growing opposition
First of all, it’s not “so-called.” The Jewish lobby is real and it wields tremendous power.
Second, what “opposition”? Most of the left doesn’t even take on the Israel lobby issue and just parrots Noam Chomsky’s analysis of the U.S./Israel relationship, because they’re scared to death of being accused of, yup, you guessed it, anti-Semitism.
It should also be known that the left and Democratic party in the U.S. will never sincerely take on the Jewish lobby since Democrats rely on Jews for most of their money.
And the Republicans/American right has been so neoconized that they aren’t likely to do any better.
So aside from Pat Buchanan, Mearsheimer and Walt, and the Mondoweiss crowd, I’m not seeing this “opposition.”
what do you think that the world is going to do with 8.0 million displaced Jews?
Well, I think that really depends on those Jews. All I know is that they’d better start behaving, or they will soon wear out their welcome.
I don’t think that Israel has played the underdog since 1967.
We do, however, feel somewhat victimised by a world that refuses, in the face of overwhelming evidence, to accept that it is truly in the midst of the oft quoted “clash of civilisations”, and that Israel is in the front line.
A Kassam may be “homemade” but, if it falls on your head, you’re just as dead. And you are buying into the media narrative about the weapons now held by Hamas and Hizbullah,
Even they claim Tens of thousands of rockets, including Scud and Grad elements, which have ranges of hundreds of kilometers. This together with a whole host of anti- air, anti- sea missiles and vast quantities of other munitions. All obtained, incidentally, relatively openly and in complete contradiction of specific UN resolutions which were ignored with the world’s compliance.
I still don’t understand what you’ve got against the Jewish lobby, specifically. Are they doing something illegal within American political system? Aren’t lobbies an integral part of the legislative process? Do you have an actual figure or percentage of what constitutes “most of the money” donated to the parties?
Regarding my 8.0 million Jews – to which welcome are your referring? And what are you proposing should happen to them once that “welcome” has been exhausted?
|
Gay Area Guy
Don’t downplay Palestinian self victimhood or by that of the entire muslim world. Yes I recognize that it’s primarily the doing of other Muslim countries and Western Muslims but I do find it somewhat comical that certain Muslim countries such as Iran, would sacrifice their own well being and reputation to support the Palestinian cause or Hezbollah. I find it quite comical to see Muslims from as far away as Kenya or Malaysia who are generally discriminated in Arab countries, devote all their time and energy and completely sacrifice themselves for a group of people who shows no gratitude and would not give them anything in return if the shoe was on the other foot. They are eerily familiar to the red neck Christian Zionists that you spoke about This is one of the reasons I lack sympathy for the Palestinian cause. It is true that Palestinians are a victim group and do have some valid concerns and grievances against Israel and the Western world, but that doesn’t mean that they are NOt assholes. Klein, Chompsky, Weiss, Fagelstein et al are too blind to see that.
Dear GSG
You lack sympathy for the Palestinian cause? Even I never called them assholes. Such language from a demure young lady!
I think that’s the second comment we’ve agreed on since Herzl’s vision.
Must take care not to get too carried away………………..
Andy
I guess I could sympathize with them but they’re definitely not my top priority given that the whole world is behind them and they have no intention of repaying them or even thanking them.
@ GSG
Believe me, I have no illusions about Palestinians or Arabs in general. I don’t dislike/hate them, but I hardly see them as allies.
Sorry, the whole Muslim world and thrid world is behind them (often people who are discriminated in the Arab world) but the Palestinians show little gratitude and intention of providing something in return. I think those in the Muslim world, third world, or ethnic minorities in the west who support the Palestinians with every fiber of their being are dupes. Western whites who support Palestinians are a cult.
@ GSG
Yeah, Rachel Corrie is an interesting specimen. I find it particularly bizarre how Lasha Darkmoon and the Occidental Observer crowd lionize her.
I don’t mind Arabs who support the Palestinians out of ethnic solidarity (though the history of Arab countries’ relationships with the Palestinians reeks of hypocrisy and betrayal).
What I find funny is how countries like Iran frequently demonstrate support to the Palestinians, despite the fact that most Iranians either don’t care about the whole conflict or hate the Palestinians. The IRI (Islamic Republic of Iran) is just using the Palestinians to make themselves more of a player in the Arab world.
(as Cyrus has highlighted in the past)
Ditto for Turkey, which could care less about oppressed and subjugated minorities/displaced peoples, as evidenced by how they treat their Kurdish minority.
You know what. Cindy and Craig Corrie should sue Alan Rickman and Katherine Viner for making their daughter look like a starry eyed, naive moron.
Lasha Darkmoon is an Arab. She does not demonstrate White Nationalist tendencies. She even referred to 19th century Jewish prostitiutes as attractive, something a true WN would never say about a Jewish girl.
I find it interesting how Arabs like to infest the extremist movements and win allies among the morons in them as Jews have control of the overwhelming majority.
She got quite offended when a commenter called Rachel Corrie “a Portland Hippie who would imprison you for hate speech.” And for saying that while he opposes US aid to Israel and wars fought on their behalf, he had no personal beef in this fight. She called him a “zionist agent” because he did not demonstrate the same reverence for all things “Palestinian.” MacDonald should fire her.
I was referring to the whole Muslim world and their collective support for the Palestinians. If the shoe was on the other foot and say Malaysia was in a major crisis and the Palestinians had an independent state, do you
think the Palestinians would return the favor? Hell no.
Leg in this fight. No inclination to fawn over Palestinians.
“Nobody has been more successful than the Palestinians and their supporters in playing the underdog card.”
That is very true among Arabs and Muslims for whom the “liberation of Palestine” is more important than the well being of their country. but Jews have been very successful at playing up the Holocause in Western countries.
Please see my reply to your Bay Area friend!
Re: Anti-Semitism
As I’ve said before, it’s really a chicken and egg type of question. Yes, we’ve all heard the “Jews are innocent and misunderstood victims” narrative.
But the more I study Jewry, the more I’ve come to the conclusion that they play a big role in provoking anti-Semitism.
I am sure that it will astonish you to know that one of the jokes I make since emigrating to Israel is that, now that I live here, I have a better understanding of anti-Semitism!
It’s not a 100% joke. I can well understand that there are aspects of the character of some Jews – not all – which could be extremely disturbing and even distasteful to some non Jews.
But for me the question is not Jew hatred, rationalised or irrational, it’s how does the hatred manifest itself. Opinion is one thing but violent or lethal action is something else.
if you accept the concept that any society is entitled to decide who it wishes to be part of that society and may conclude, for example, that it doesn’t want Jews or Gypsies as neighbours, how should that situation be addressed.
Relocation or expulsion often isn’t an option if no other state will accept the displaced population. Indeed I believe that reason to be the basis for the decision on the “Final Solution”. Once the Germans understood that the Jews would not be welcome anywhere in the world they, being a practical people , chose a pragmatic answer.
Dislike and hatred leading to genocide is the problem – not the hatred per se. It all depends how, and in which direction, that hatred is channeled.
And I’m not playing any Holocaust card here. I’m not using the Holocaust, in this context, to justify any actions of Jews or Zionists vis-a vis Israel.
I don’t think it necessary, since the creation of Israel was predicated on a number of other criteria.
If one additional element was European or American guilt, so be it. But the Holocaust alone is not the reason for the Jewish State.
And if you believe that Jewish actions provoking anti-Semitism are, of themselves, a justification for genocide then your hatred of Jews and things Jewish is far too deeply rooted for me to address.
Because look at what happened with the practical application of your “they brought it upon themselves” philosophy.
AB- So you are understanding anti-Jewiness more now that you are surrounded by them. This is heard very often – you are not alone in that!
I really detest the idea of banning words…but, if we could get rid of one- how about “Anti-S-ism”? It’s false, it’s misleading, and it’s used as an all-purpose bludgeon to squelch any criticism, no matter how slight. It was made up for propaganda reasons- let’s just sh*t-can it.
I still find amazing that you profess to not understand anti-Jewish sentiments. You’re a bright guy- and you can’t figure it out?
Hell, I’m a WASP, and I know ALL the reasons why people hate my kind- and I am aware of ALL the things my kind has done, been accused of, etc. Some true, some not, and I’ll jump to the defense when warranted- but knee-jerk, “Who…Us?”, “we don’t deserve any of this”- almost no other group alleges that they’ve nevr done anything wrong- except for one group.
I could guarantee you this- if Jews, historically, had never gotten into the business of financing/money-lending, there would never have been a huge amount of prejudice against them. If they were just smart, hard-working, industrious people, would they ever have engendered such hatred? Hell no.
If just being non-Christian, smart, industrious and cooking smelly food were the criteria for genocidal hatred, that would cover a hell of a lot of other groups. Tha’s not the problem- and Jews should stop pretending it is. That’s called “lying”.
They would have suffered the same prejudice as any non-Christians, along with some “Jesus-killer” hatred, but that would be it- no pograms, no Nazis. no H-cast. Believe it or not, ABoy, money is the cause of the whole thing. That and trying to control governments, media, academia, the Arts with money and inflence. Do, say Poles do that? Hungarians? Zorastrians?
The biggest problem is that some Jews and their champions want to label everyone with something bad to say about them as an idiotic, insane, paranoid Neo-Nazis who should be silenced and probably killed because they of course must also advocate genociding all who they despise. This is complete baloney.
If no Arabs had any objection to Israel, I wouldn’t either, and neither would any sane person. More power to them, I’d say!
Also, people that don’t like Jews should probably support a Jewish homeland (so they can all go there), somewhere, right? So being pro-Jewish homeland is not neccessarily being pro-Jewish. If I was a raving, genocidal Nazi or Arab Jew-hater, in fact I would encourage them to all move to one small area and concentrate themselves there. How does Israel make Jews safer? To the contrary!
Jewish people can live in comfort almost anywhere in the world nowadays without fear of persecution. Why do they need Israel? Because they don’t make sense- it’s all just emotional, sentimental, sympathy, etc. Bad reasons to establish a state.
Andy
Why are you opposed to internet antisemitism. It gives you justification for the zionist project.
I didn’t say that I don’t understand anti Jewish sentiments; actually I think I said the reverse. But I doubt that all those who harbour feelings of hatred towards the Jewish people, do so for the same reasons.
For you, I understand the problem is the Jewish involvement in finance and money. You know, of course how that started in the middle ages. For Jews, at that time, this profession was not a free choice. They were simply prevented from doing anything else.
And I think that, generally, Jews were hard-working and industrious and studious. I wouldn’t presume to claim that they were also smart. History will be the judge of that. But I still can’t make the connection between these qualities and genocidal hatred. Can you?
The fact that Jews appear to excel in certain spheres of human endeavour ( see my post on Nobel prize winners) might lead to jealousy – but how do you connect even THAT to genocide?
Seems a pretty extreme way of demonstrating that you’re pissed off with success!
And I never applied all the labels you detail to Jew Haters. I don’t really care to listen to ignorant rants, but I don’t mind as long as the end result is not beating the shit out of me, or something worse!
One thing we can agree upon. Having all Jews concentrated in one small area is not too great if you’re being threatened by a megalomaniac with an atomic bomb.
So there are two solutions. Get the hell out, or neutralise the threat.
I’m sure you won’t be surprised that I prefer the second option!
Mr. Israel- I don’t think you understood my post- I said IT’S THE MONEY (and by extension Influence) THING- that’s why the whole anti-Jew thing got started- people do not dislike Jews because they are possessing of any other qualities. (The Israel-Palestine thing is separate thing altogether, tho).
Being non-Christians is not such a big deal, neither is any other stuff: being different, etc.
Only the Money Thing explains the virulence of hatred for them, historically. That and one other: Clique-ishness and it’s cousin- an unwillingness to profess allegiance to their host countries- only to themselves.
You act like the Money Thing is only my personal reason- you could not be more inaccurate. It was the Nazi’s reason-have you forgotten? No, because most Jews refuse to even acknowledge the Money Thing. They say it was dreamed up by crazy, hallucinating Nazis.
The Money Lending thing may have been encouraged by certain rules in the Middle Ages- but after that, it’s been all voluntary. Until fairly recently, poorer Jews engaged in all manner of lowly professions, too. IT WASN’T the “only thing they could do”. They were always merchants and middlemen, too.
You didn’t get the message again? I feel like you are playing “dumb”, now.
Okay, let me just clarify something, Mr. Strawman Andyboy.
I am NOT saying that genocide or other forms of persecution against Jews are morally justified. What I AM saying is that anti-Semitic backlash, while not morally justifiable, is understandable in light of the way Jews at times behave.
I think a quote by H.G. Wells is applicable to people like you:
There are things about Jews that I do admire. I admire their intellectual achievements, their nobel prizes/inventions, and a select few comedians such as Larry David.
Jews would do well to keep their heads down/keep a low profile, mind their own business, and stay out of other peoples’ affairs. If they would stick to education and nobel prizes, but stay out of politics and the media, I would have no problem with them.
You ask why I have such a problem with the Jewish lobby. There are several reasons.
1) Despite the fact that the Jewish lobby is solely acting on behalf of a foreign country, organizations such as AIPAC don’t have to register as foreign agents.
Therefore, the whole “oh, what about the Armenian or Irish American lobby” line uttered by Jewish lobby apologists doesn’t work there.
2) I don’t know about you, but I find it absolutely sickening that organized elements of a certain group would devote most of their time, energy, and resources, to supporting a foreign country, even if that support at times costs their country of residence.
There’s a reason why this whole “dual loyalty canard” exists, and it’s not because of blind Jew hatred.
Shit, just look at you, Andyboy. Through your actions, you’ve clearly demonstrated greater loyalty to Israel than your country of birth.
What angers me about the Jewish lobby is the fact that there’s a fifth column in this country that cares more about Israeli than American interests.
Oh, and if it were up to me, I would severely curtail the amount of money that special interest groups and individuals can donate to politicians or political parties.
It’s the Cuban lobby not the Irish lobby.
So now you are claiming that I am misrepresenting your position.
Actually I’m still trying to understand it. It seems that you are willing to accept Jews in your society, subject to certain restrictions: these, essentially, boil down to “stay away from politics”.
I don’t feel, as you do, that it is in some way, unethical or immoral to lobby on behalf of an overseas ally if those doing the lobbying believe that the results of their actions will be in the best interests of America.
You are not obliged to agree with their perspective, and neither is your government. You seem to be upset with the fact that this lobby is, according to you, too successful.
Millions of people change their countries of residence every year. if I’m not mistaken, those obtaining American citizenship are obliged, on naturalisation to swear an oath of allegiance to America, sing the national anthem and honour the flag.
How do you feel about their relationship to the country in which they were born and, of which they were citizens by an accident of birth, not out of choice. Do you think that birth should determine loyalty for the rest of one’s life – no matter the circumstances?
Regarding the funding arrangements for your political parties; that’s really a domestic issue for you which I would rather not enter.
@ GSG
Thanks for the correction. The Cuban lobby is indeed frequently invoked by Israel lobby apologists, but I’ve heard the Irish lobby and Armenian lobby brought up as well.
@ Andyboy
How do you feel about their relationship to the country in which they were born and, of which they were citizens by an accident of birth, not out of choice. Do you think that birth should determine loyalty for the rest of one’s life – no matter the circumstances?
But Andyboy, there’s a HUGE difference. The relationship of say, a naturalized immigrant from Taiwan or India to the United States is a lot different from that of a Jewish American who has consciously decided to leave the U.S. and move to Israel. The former has clearly chosen the United States, while the latter has rejected it.
And yes, people do frequently change residencies and move about, but that doesn’t mean people in the countries whose citizens are leaving have to like it.
People decry the “brain drain” in the 3rd world for a reason.
@ Mott
Hell, I’m a WASP, and I know ALL the reasons why people hate my kind- and I am aware of ALL the things my kind has done, been accused of, etc. Some true, some not, and I’ll jump to the defense when warranted- but knee-jerk, “Who…Us?”, “we don’t deserve any of this”- almost no other group alleges that they’ve nevr done anything wrong- except for one group.
Exactly.
As a white American male, I am very pro-white/pro-Western civilization, and I’m against multiculturalism, postmodernism, Critical Race theory, etc.
That being said, I at least KNOW where my enemies are coming from. I know why non-whites hate people like me, even though I don’t accept it.
There’s a difference between understanding and accepting. I understand why people hate white Americans. I just don’t like or accept it.
Andyboy, sadly, seems stuck in the “why do they hate us?” stage.
Not true!
I know very well the roots of anti-Semitic thinking. It’s just out of interest that I was trying to understand the personal or individual reasons for those on this forum as part of extending my knowledge.
And you might think that you know why people hate you, or those your represent. But are you sure you know ALL the reasons? You’re that certain?
Yeah, I’d say I’m pretty certain.
Of course, nobody ever knows ALL of the reasons for everything. There are probably extra reasons why non-whites hate whites of which I’m not yet aware.
But I’ve got the fundamentals down, and that’s good enough for me.
I no longer feel the need to read anti-racist blogs to know what my enemy is saying about me.
@ Bay Area Guy – your post of 11.14 today with no button ( what is it with this software, or is it that you don’t want an answer?)
Just found this, can’t keep up with you, you’re too prolific!
The Palestinians were definitely not an entity prior 1947.
On the other hand, The Jewish Agency for Palestine, formed in 1929, acted as a form of government in waiting and ensured that all the necessary elements were in place for the creation of Israel following the UN decision.
We both know that the only deep rooted connection to Jerusalem was Jewish and, to some extent, Christian. Islam’s spiritual connection was aimed far more at Mecca and Medina and you are aware, of course, that Jerusalem is not mentioned, even once, in the Koran.
Sorry, can’t blame us for Iraq and Afghanistan. Your government’s decision, not ours. Actually, you may recall that Bush the elder specifically requested Prime Minister Shamir to stay out of the first Gulf war, and Israel complied.
You are amazingly adept at apportioning all the blame for all the sins of the world to Israel.
IF ONLY we had such power!
And you can invoke Jesus Christ or Mohammed or Moses for all I care.
I don’t do religion!
Andy, you seem to conflate political organization/leadership with ethnic and national identity.
So let me get this straight: You’re telling me that the establishment of a Zionist organization in 1929 gives Israeli Jews a legitimate identity/claim to Palestine, but Palestinians who have been living there for centuries are not an “entity” just because they have no political leadership?
And another thing, the Al-Aqsa mosque is considered the 3rd holiest site in Sunni Islam, and Jerusalem, while not the primary site in Islam, does occupy a significant place in the psyche of Palestinian Muslims.
And again, you never addressed this, but how in the hell do Jews have a claim to Palestine on the basis of living there millennia ago, but Palestinians who had been living there when the first Zionists arrived are a “non-entity?”
BTW, I was referring to the second Iraq war, for which there is ample evidence of Israeli/neocon/Jewish manipulation.
You constantly refer to Palestinians living in Palestine prior to 1947 as if they were a clearly defined, cohesive, separately identifiable politically structured group. This is simply not true.
You know where they came from, and when and why. Claims of a separate Palestinian nation at that time are bogus.
And I repeat, there has been a continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for more than 2000 years. The Jews didn’t “suddenly” appear.
I still don’t quite get how a site can be so holy and so important that is is never once mentioned in their holiest of books; but I don’t have too much truck with religious crap.
And regarding Iraq, I guess what you call manipulation I would interpret as advice; to be acted upon, or not, according to the political imperative of the moment.
And regarding Iraq, I guess what you call manipulation I would interpret as advice; to be acted upon, or not, according to the political imperative of the moment.
How about the fact that Israel was behind fabricating much of that bogus WMD (Weapons of mass destruction) crap.
“You know where they came from, and when and why”
Um, no, enlighten us- where did those pesky Palis come from? Russia? Germany? Or, were they just Arabs that happened to be there for quite some time (1500+ years). But, wait, this would mean a “continuous presence”!
Let’s see, they are not Egyptians, Lebanese, or Syrians, or Jordanians. Then what would they be? They fell from the sky! That’s it!
Jews had a miniscule presence for 1,800 years, until the Zionist thing started.
“I still don’t quite get how a site can be so holy and so important that is is never once mentioned in their holiest of books; but I don’t have too much truck with religious crap.”
Then there goes the whole argument for Israel- that it is the Holy Motherland of the Jews. If you don’t buy religious crap- why live in a Religious State that would not exist if not for religious reasons?
The Ottoman Empire owned the place before- that’s why there were no separate countries. Who ever said that? Strawman ALERT! The people that lived there were descended from Jews, Christians, and Arabs, and yeah, they weren’t organized. This means they were a “non-entity”? Yikes!
President Truman said something like this: “if the jack-boot was on the other foot, I have no doubt that the Jews will, and would do the same to their oppressors as has been done to them.”
Truman Quote #2 “We’ve now lost the Arabs for 150 years” (on creating Israel).
But I forget- Israel is America’s GREATEST ALLY! I’m told so by Lox News- I mean Foxman News. AKA…. Al-Jew-Zeera. I mean Faux News- Voice of Usrael. What a load!
Andyboy, again, just because a people do not have a state or government doesn’t mean that they don’t have an identity and don’t qualify as a distinctive group.
The Kurds and Hmong are both peoples who lack a state and powerful or cohesive political leadership, and you could say that they’re “not cohesive,” but that doesn’t mean that Kurdish or Hmong identity aren’t real.
And I repeat, there has been a continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for more than 2000 years. The Jews didn’t “suddenly” appear.
LOL
The ones from Europe, particularly Russia, certainly did. And what “continuous presence”? Don’t Jews go on and on about the “exile” for a reason?
Besides, a small presence of non-Ashkenazi Jews in Palestine did not give Yiddish speaking Jews from Russia any claim to the land of Palestine. Period.
Gay Area Guy
Gilad calls himself “a Hebrew speaking Palestinian.” ROFL.
Each to his own. Out of 7.0 billion people in the world there have to be a few loose cannons. And what’s one more self hating Jew, more or less?
Re your other post.
Did I say that I’m OPPOSED to internet anti-Semitism? It’s a lot less dangerous than the the physical kind in the real world.
And I don’t feel that I have to “justify” Zionism. I try to explain it, as rationally as I can, to the non- believers on this forum, and anyone else that will listen.
People can form their own conclusions; these may be based on truth, prejudice or narrative. Eventually each one of us has to live with our conscience.
All comes down to freedom of expression in the end!
Gay Area Guy
I haven’t followed the Irvine 11 scandal. What is going on?
GSG
The Muslim students of the “Irvine 11,” with the exception of 1, have been sentenced to probation and several hours of community service, and fined around $275 each.
What did they do?
Oh, I thought you would have known. No matter.
They interrupted Michael Oren’s speech. Basically, while Michael Oren was busy giving a speech at UCI, Muslim students one-by-one got up and yelled stuff like “propagating murder is not free speech!” and “Irvine should be ashamed to have a murderer like you come to speak!”, etc.
Once the cops came to escort them out, they left quietly, but it’s been a big controversy for over a year.
I heard about that. I didn’t pay any attention though. It was stupid to give them such harsh punishments for behaving immaturely but their actions won’t get them anywhere. I don’t the Pro-Israel crowd and find them quite repulsive but the MSU and Arab Student Association are extremely juvenile and poorly spoken. Are these the “fullbright scholars” that Israel denied exit to? They probably only got into university because they were minorities.
I wouldn’t put it past the MSU to do something ridiculous though.
GSG “but I do find it somewhat comical that certain Muslim countries such as Iran, would sacrifice their own well being and reputation to support the Palestinian cause or Hezbollah. ”
Iran cares only about Iran. Their support for the Palestinians justifies spending and supporting Hizbollah, which will become their front line against Israel should the US try and invade Iran. This is Iran’s trump card. This was witnessed in 2006 when US sabre rattling against Iran was at an all time high. The movie 300 was also released that year which was aimed at turning public opinion against Persian people and their culture. The US might have invaded in 2006 (or shortly after) had Hizbollah not held its own against Israel. So it’s time you stop taking Ahmadinejad’s rhetoric at face value and learn to read in between the lines.
BAG
“”because they’re scared to death of being accused of, yup, you guessed it, anti-Semitism. “””
It’s time we take back that word as this might be our only defense against the disproportionate power wielded by organized Jewry.
“Iran cares only about Iran. Their support for the Palestinians justifies spending and supporting Hizbollah, which will become their front line against Israel should the US try and invade Iran.”
Yeah that’s why Iran gave money to Lebanese who lost their houses during the 2006 war, but ignored the same requests of homeless Iranians. And that Holocaust conference, however harmless it may have been, did wonders to Iran’s image.
If they\re going to raise their own army in Lebanon, the most obvious recruitment incentive would be that Hezbollah widows are taken care of and material loss is compensated. As long as the threat of invasion looms over Iran, Hezbollah will not lose relevance. Is this really so hard to follow?
I use “Judeophobia”
Iran has no business getting involved in the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict and many Iranians agree. I have heard Iranians say that they have no leg in this fight and they don’t want to be associated with the Arab world. Many young Iranians protested the Holocaust conference and various Palestinian solidarity events such as Qud’s day, saying these events undermined their Iranian interests. Iran is an ancient and advanced civilization and modern Iranians do not need to be associated with Palestinians.
And no I will never mop your floor.
Dota
Can you explain the reasons why South Asian countries would shelter Arab terrorist groups at their own expense? They seem to be too far gone to stand on their own two feet and reclaim their pre Islamic ethnic identity.
I couldn’t explain this to you without it sounding like a conspiracy theory, so I won’t bother.
“”They seem to be too far gone to stand on their own two feet and reclaim their pre Islamic ethnic identity.””
This applies to Pakistan solely. But even they cannot divorce themselves from over 3000 years of shared history with their Indian counterparts. The many failings of Indians culture such as excessive patriarchy, castism and Communalism are all common place in Pakistan. They may pretend to be different but in reality they are one of us.
Lindsay
I read that there are several verses in the Quran that say that Arabs are the master race. I heard it from a biased source (an African Nationalist who hated Arabs.) Is there any truth to it? It seems a bit sketchy given that modern Arabs aren’t really a race, but it would be an interesting alternative explanation for their actions in non Arab Muslim countries. I know that the Talmud has similar verses (though WN and Muslims take them WAY OUT of proportion.)
GSG
This is from Muhammad’s final khutbah (sermon) before his death
“”All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.””
The entire text is online, google it.
Also from another Hadith:
“These genealogies of yours are not a reason to revile anyone. You are all children of Adam. No one has any superiority over another except in religion and taqwa (piety).” (Ahmad ibn Hanbal)
Classical Islam was certainly an Arab tribal religion. It evolved in time. There are no verses in the Quran about Arabs being a master race since some of the earliest companions of Muhammad were non Arabs (Blacks and Persians).
Not aware of such verses.
@DOTA
“I’m not against Jews having a state either. Why shouldn’t they? I’m just against them having a state at another people’s expense. If Israel was located elsewhere, no problem.”
Like- where?
Not that many states have been established that could claim that their creation was not at someones “expense”.
At least the Jews can claim historical, religious, cultural and continuous connections to their homeland.
The same cannot be said for the founders of America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few.
Does that make these countries “illegitimate”?
And, if not – why not?
As far as the 8 million Jews, there are not that many in Israel. There are 5.5 million. What do be done with them? I have no idea. They can all go to the US, the UK, Israel, Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Greece, Italy, former Yugoslavia, Albania, Scandinavia, Netherlands, wherever they wish to go. Even Germany is a parody of a Judeophilic country now.
I want the Jews to stay right there in Israel though, although I would like to dismantle the Zionist state. If Jews and Arabs could live in peace in one land there, good, that would solve the problem. If there ended up being more Arabs than Jews, I don’t see a problem, as Jewish minorities tend to dominate states and economies anyway.
“I have no idea. They can all go to the US, the UK, Israel, Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Greece, Italy, former Yugoslavia, Albania, Scandinavia, Netherlands, wherever they wish to go. Even Germany is a parody of a Judeophilic country now.”
Lindsay
Out of curiosity, if Israel were dismantled and inevitably became an Arab muslim nation, would any of the countries that you mentioned allow an autonomous Jewish state to be built within their borders (without discriminating against or inconviencing anyone else, of course.) I know you have personal biases against Jewish nationalism which you once referred to as ghettoization, but you can’t deny it to those who want it. I used to go on those anti nationalist forums and argue with them.
I am against Jews living in Germany, primarily because they demand and receive special privileges in return for living there. Most of the FSU Jews live off welfare and the Israelis are offered incentives to start businesses there. When I was in high school (with a large Jewish population), a German recruiter came to our school and offered free tuition for Jewish students to study at German foreign exchange programs. It’s ridiculous.
I am opposed to Jewish nationalism period. Not everyone gets their own state you know. The Jews are not a nation, not a nation that qualifies for getting their own state.
Lindsay,
Do you support Jews right to self segregate within their host nations, preserve our culture, and yes, shield our men from gold digging shiksas?
One of the reasons I support Jewish separatism is because I don’t like the way jews behave in the American public sphere and interfere with other cultures and religions within the US. The ongoing secularization and perversion of America and the attack on traditional values.
The good thing about nationalism is it forces people of a given culture to behave maturely and take responsibility for their actions. Some of the biggest patriots are the children of expats, but they only have a superficial knowledge of that culture, not having lived in it. Knowledge or membership of a particular culture requires total immersion into it, experiencing both the good and bad it brings. Attending ethnic festivals twice a year is not preserving your culture. The organized Jewish behaves as a nation (some would call them parasitical.) If they were a separate nation, they would eventually face consequences, as Israel is beginning to. When Haredim become the majority in Israel, they will have to face the consequences of their laziness and unwillingness to work or serve in the military. Secular American jews want to have their cake and eat it too. They behave as if they are a nation, but do not want to be held accountable and wanted to be treated as American citizens. If they did not have American citizenship, they could not get away with that.
I couldn’t care less about racial purity. I am more concerned with the survival of culture and endangered languages. I don’t want a racial Jewish state but a cultural one.
I respect all people’s right to self govern and consider multiCULTuralists my main enemy.
As you can see, I have a very complex view on Jews. I fervently support Jewish nationalism, while harshly criticizing jews at the same time.
Lindsay
Do we have the right to self segregate within larger nations, establish our own legal system, and shield our men from seductive, gold digging shiksa cunt?
Yes you can self segregate.
And would you call those who conciously surround themselves with other Jews to be extremists?
Lindsay
Would you consider me an extremist because I believe that Jewish parents should send their children to Jewish schools?
In the other settler colonial states that you mention, the natives have equal rights with the settlers. Completely equal rights. None of those states is a racist state for the settlers only.
Hence Israel in its apartheid nature should not exist as Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia should not have existed. We wiped out those states, why not wipe out Israel too?
Sorry about the 8 million: was getting late! Anyway this week’s figures put it close to 6.0 million- unfortunate number!
I’m glad to learn that we have your blessing to remain in our homeland, albeit with your personal caveats.
Actually Jews and Arabs ( well, about 1.6 million of them) do live in relative peace and harmony in Israel already. O.K. I grant you it’s not exactly the Garden of Eden, but most of us get along on a day to day basis without too much hassle. Probably not much worse than WASPS exist side by side with Blacks or Latinos. Maybe not EXACTLY equal, but liveable.
On the personal level , as distinct from the political level, things are not as bad as would appear from only reading sensationalised reporting of the difficulties.
Maybe if a formula could be found to maintain this balance the situation would be feasible.
The problem with your assertion that Jews always rise to the top of the pile, even as a minority, is that it’s difficult to do that if your neighbours and/or citizens want to blow the pile to smithereens with you on it.
Regarding your other point about colonialism, things were not always as you claim for the natives. And ,I think you are looking at the present situation through rather rosy lenses. The Aborigines in Australia might take issue with you about your perception of their equality.
Anyway, Israel is far from being a racist state according to the examples you quote. Tell me anywhere in world where there is total and absolute parity between peoples of different historical, religious, cultural or ethnic backgrounds.
And, just sometimes, I have difficulty in understanding where you are coming from. In two successive posts you claim – in the first – that you are happy for Israel to remain where it is and then – in the second – state that, maybe, it should be wiped of the face of the Earth.
Hard to follow your thought processes!
The Jews can stay in Palestine. I don’t really want the state of Israel to exist, but maybe it will have to. I don’t agree with you that Jews and Arabs are equal in Israel. The apartheid nature of the state is mostly due to the occupation of the West Bank, but things are not so pretty in Israel proper itself.
Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia were wiped from the face of the Earth. It doesn’t have to be a genocidal process.
@ Andyboy Are you genuinely surprised at and unable to understand why so many people share the view that a grave injustice has been committed against the Palestinians? Whether they deserve to be called a nation or not is beside the point. The fact is that tens and thousands of families who had been in possession of land, for hundreds of years in some cases, were dispossessed at gunpoint.
This is from a review of a book written by Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian and senior lecturer at Haifa University. (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4715):
In his preface, Pappe writes about the “Red House” in Tel-Aviv that became headquarters for the Hagana, the dominant Zionist underground paramilitary militia during the British Mandate period in Palestine between 1920 and 1948 when the Jewish state came into being. He details how David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, met with leading Zionists and young Jewish military officers on March 10, 1948 to finalize plans to ethnically cleanse Palestine that unfolded in the months that followed including “large-scale (deadly serious)intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning.”
The final master plan was called Plan D (Dalet in Hebrew) following plans A, B, and C preceding it. It was to be a war without mercy complying with what Ben-Gurion said in June, 1938 to the Jewish Agency Executive and never wavering from later: “I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it.” Plan D became the way to do it. It included forcible expulsion of hundreds of thousands of unwanted Palestinian Arabs in urban and rural areas accompanied by an unknown number of others mass slaughtered to get it done. The goal was simple and straightforward – to create an exclusive Jewish state without an Arab presence by any means including mass-murder.
Once begun, the whole ugly business took six months to complete. It expelled about 800,000 people, killed many others, and destroyed 531 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods in cities like Tel-Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem.
Andy
I thought the Kimberley plan, proposed in 1936 by the League of Nations to relocate Eastern European Jews and start a Jewish autonomous state in the beautiful and sparsely populated Kimberley region of Western Australia. Unfortunately the then Prime Minister of Australia denied it as the Europeans preferred to be generous with others’ land and we all know the rest.
Why would you want to be surrounded by 300 million people who hate you anyway? I see that time and again. In Jewish culture, there is something fulfilling about being so despised. It’s like your identity depends on it.
@ GSG
Re: Wanting to be despised
I wouldn’t say that this behavior is unique to Jews. There’s just something about humans in general that craves conflict and controversy. People want to feel like they’re important, special, unique, and are relevant enough to be on other peoples’ radar.
Granted, I’d say that Jews more than any other group are like that. Probably has to do with the fact that they’ve been so despised throughout history, and this has in turn created a vicious cycle.
(ie. Bad Jewish behavior and chauvinism produces anti-Semites, and anti-Semites in turn produce Jewish chauvinism, though I’m sure Jews would still be chauvinistic regardless of anti-Semitism)
I do think this might be changing among younger Jews to a certain extent, or at least I hope so.
As one Jewish blogger once said, the Jewish/white gentile dichotomy is outdated and needs to be discarded.
As this said dichotomy becomes less and less irrelevant, I think you’ll have a change in the Jewish psyche.
Gay Area Guy
I’m sorry. I got carried away with the Jewish Separatism thing. I am more concerned with the survival of Jewish culture and languages than racial purity. I have complex reasons for supporting Jewish Nationalism and Black Nationalism as I believe it will force both groups to behave more maturely. I don’t want to segregate myself and I don’t mind being a member of a tiny minority. I was just playing a game with Lindsay. How come Jews aren’t worthy of having their own country, are some animals more equal than others? I heard a women insist that Orthodox Jews need to become more “universal,” while maintaining that Jews had a special gene that made them smarter.
“As one Jewish blogger once said, the Jewish/white gentile dichotomy is outdated and needs to be discarded.”
Who said this. I hope so.
Who said this. I hope so.
He’s a Jewish blogger named State of Exile. JAY used to link to him on his blog.
I don’t like State of Exile because he referred to Jewish males as “victims” at the hand of obnoxious, meticulous Jewish women and advocates for patrilineal descent and encourages Jewish men to shn Jewish women in favor of Asians.
I don’t mind the Jewish male/Asian female phenonmenon so much. That is a personal choice. But calling Jewish men “victims” is a huge joke. Jewish men have been spitting on us for decades and I would encourage Jewish women to look beyond Jewish doctors and lawyers when choosing spouses. With the Chinese fetuside of females, there is an abundance of men for Jewish women to choose from.
I don’t like State of Exile because he referred to Jewish males as “victims” at the hand of obnoxious, meticulous Jewish women and advocates for patrilineal descent and encourages Jewish men to shn Jewish women in favor of Asians.
He even once said that he would prefer a Mizrahi woman because it’s the closest thing he could get to dating outside of his race while still dating within his race.
He clearly isn’t fond of Ashkenazi women.
I don’t mind the Jewish male/Asian female phenonmenon so much.
Just curious, of all the white male/Asian female marriages/relationships, how many of them involve white Jews?
At least based on what I’ve seen, most involve white gentile men, as the blonde, gold digging shiksa cunts you hate so much seem to be the preferred choice for Jewish men who date/marry outside the tribe.
(including your favorite Phillip Weiss)
A good percentage. Twenty percent of Chinese adopties are adopted by Jewish parents. I think the figure of Jewish/Chinese marriages is similar.
I apologize for my shiksa comments. I don’t refer to all non jewish women as shiksas, just those who marry Jewish men for their money. I would be quieter about if Jewish men didn’t advertise it and claim it made them superior to Jewish men who married Jews. Jewish men who marry Jewish women out of guilt or pressure will go on dates with blond shiksas whenever they get the opportunity and then brag about it.
A good percentage. Twenty percent of Chinese adopties are adopted by Jewish parents. I think the figure of Jewish/Chinese marriages is similar.
You mean that 20% of WM/AF marriages are with Jewish men?
Re: Shiksas
I don’t really mind. I understand that a lot of it is backlash against Mondoweiss.
I decided that I don’t care about Phil Weiss. He has no influence and even many of his followers think his attitudes on multiculturalism are excessive. The exchange between his SWPL commenters and his Paleoconservative commenters is quite amusing. One paleoconservative commenter who also comments on Occidental Observer (Todd) criticized him for saying young jews should be actively encouraged to date non jews and called him out for his hypocrisy. Another commenter, a public school teacher in Australia (Roha) said he often asks his students if the world would be a better place if people were fforced to marry outside their race and that ethnic strife would be eliminated if races were eliminated. That got the Paleoconservatives all riled up.
Phil’s wife isn’t even pretty. Dude if you’re gonna piss off your parents and potentially jeopardize your inheritance by marrying a shiksa, at least get a hot one. Just kidding just kidding.
And more mainstream jews as well. I couldn’t care less about Phil Weiss. the whole Jewish world hates him. But Jewish men have a habit of degrading their women. Every other culture claims to have the most attractive women in the world and are very protective of them, but Jewish men treat their women like garbage.
You know, of course,that Ilan Pappe is a very controversial historian who chose to exile himself form Israel and now lives in the UK.
Benny Morris, Professor of Middle East History at Ben Gurion University, had this to say about Pappe in article he wrote a few months ago:
“At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.”
Not my words; his.
I am not a Professor of History. so I, like you, have to read what others have written and to try to decide to take their claimed truth with the proverbial pinch of salt, or not.
There are no absolute truths in historical narrative. It depends who is doing the writing and what is his personal agenda.
I am reminded of an apocryphal story attributed to Winston Churchill.
When questioned as to how he thought history would treat him, he replied:
“History will treat me very well”.
When asked “how can you be so sure?”
He replied- “because I’m going to write it!”
Naturally, you will believe what you want to believe. Everybody does.
Since history is relitive and reality is socially constructed it follows that the side with the most guns will dominate this discourse. This is why it is such a waste of time debating with you Andy. Interestingly enough, your apathy to morality seems to mirror Brahmin amorality. Provobly why Indians and Jews get along so well.
@Andy So you genuinely believe the narrative that the 700k+ Palestinians left on their accord? Come on, be refreshingly honest for a change, like Benny Morris, who does not deny that some form of ethnic cleansing took place in 1948 and even justifies it: “[t]here are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing.”
I understand that you are not pursuing Pappe’s version of Plan D.
Regarding what actually happened depends very much on how you define “left of their own accord”.
If you are asking me if I accept that all those who left did so as a result of physical bodily eviction, then my answer is definitely, no. There was not one single reason.
For many it was the fear of being caught in the middle of a war zone. For others it was a decision not to impede the advance of Arab forces according the demands made of them by those forces. For yet others it was fear of attack on them by Jewish forces.
There were many reasons and you cannot prove your contention that they were all evicted in the manner you imply.
I was aware of your quoted remark of Benny Morris. In the circumstances of the time, and given the threat of annihilation hanging over the nascent state, his opinion seems eminently understandable.
In any event, the movement of Arabs from Palestine to other neighbouring Arab countries (from which many of them or their ancestors originated) is counterbalanced by the expulsion of over 900,000 Jews from Arab countries.
This is not so much an act of ethnic cleansing as it is, more accurately, an act of exchange of populations. Not an unknown phenomenon in modern history and accepted by most as one of the realistic options of developing societies.
Sorry, don’t understand your line of argument.
This has nothing to do with military power. What we are debating are disagreements between academics – in this case history professors.
You are free to choose whichever narrative suits your worldview.
It has nothing to do with morality!
And, sorry that you feel it a waste of time to debate with me. You can stop whenever you want.
Even the rules of this forum do not compel you to respond to me.
You wouldn’t understand morality if it punched you in the face.
Anyhow this is why debating with you is a waste of time
http://westcoastwitness.com/2009/05/26/notes-from-the-pepperdine-lectures-rick-atchley-jonathan-storment/
So, don’t!
I understand that, for you, there is one worldview and one criterion for morality.
Yours!
I don’t think I will miss posting to you and meeting a brick wall of denial.
Have a nice week!
Did you even read the cartoon?
OK , i saw the cartoon,
So If, I understand it, and you, correctly, your position is that in any given situation there can be only one criterion of morality.
Right or Wrong.
Good or Bad.
Black or White.
Everything is absolute.
I don’t agree. Two people can observe the same situation from two different perspectives, and form different conclusions.
Each correct according to his moral standpoint.
You are not obliged to agree.
I am not certain if this is an appropriate analogy, but let’s consider the issue of capital punishment.
A convicted murderer is executed according to the law. Two people witness the execution. One sees it as a totally justifiable and lawful,action of the state, according to the circumstances.
The second person finds the action offensive and contrary to his conviction and belief that it is not permitted to take a human life in any circumstances.
Which one of them is morally correct, and why?
@ Robert
I think that the relationship between the Jews and Arabs living in Israel is not worse than that between majority and minority populations in many countries. On a day to day basis, I repeat , it is not as bad as you make out for most people most of the time.
Exceptions are what make the headlines.
And I’m not so sure that South Africa is a great example to use. I understand that the crime rate there is astronomical and the murder rate is through the roof!
( from Wikipedia) -” Crime is a prominent issue in South Africa. South Africa has a high rate of murders, assaults, rapes, and other crimes compared to most countries. Many emigrants from South Africa state that crime was a big factor in their decision to leave.[1]”
Are you still so sure that freedom from the previous rule of law was such a good thing for the population?
Look what they did with their “freedom”!
A- Boy: You not exactly hitting them out of the park here. You would compare the South African Black population to the Palestinians?
There is no comparison. Arab countries have low crime rates, invariably.
The Palis have bad qualities that we all know about, but to compare them to blacks in South Africa? Andy, you complain that you can’t follow the logic of others here. Well, guess what? You (and other hard-core Israeli Nationalists) make no sense to MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON THE PLANET. Only fellow Jews and some knee-jerk pro-Zionists in the U.S. and Canada buy the baloney narrative that you preach.
There is no morality? The Nazis would have agreed with you. You’re in good company.
BTW- Pointing out that the people you are accused of stealing from have issues, and that there is some inconsistency in their supporters’ views….You’re right- that does justify anything you do…NOT!
You are living proof of why Jews make such great lawyers (which the #2 reason they are despised world-wide). You see both sides. all sides of reality, with no “real” truth (except your “Jewish truth”).
So, now, Andy, prove what a good lawyer you would make- let’s hear you argue the Palestinian’s case….or, let’s hear you admit to just, say THREE THINGS that Jews, and Israel, have been guilty of, that have engendered animosity. Can you do it?
I got 100 schekels you won’t/can’t admit to anything.
It’s also remarkable that he keeps insisting that reality is relative however gets defensive when someone questions Jewish victim hood. When it comes to Israeli barbarism he insists that there are many ways of looking at the issue. But when someone questions Jewish victimhood he insists that only one worldview fits, that Jews are the most persecuted people period. This guy is a barrel of laughs. Not even the first year Hillel students at York were such dupes.
@Dota- I believe you’ve nailed him. I think you could call it “Judeo-Centricism”- taken to the usual extreme. But he says Israelis are “are just people, with faults like any others” bla, bla, bla. Let’s hear him say the same about the Palis- (hint: he won’t!)
It is simply a matter of fact that Jews are the most, or, maybe, one of the most, persecuted people in all of history. What is there to defend in that statement?
How you view this and how you try to apply it to current situations is very much influenced by your worldview.
If I ever refer to it, I do so to give context to a world that is fixed on believing that Jewish problems only started in 1967 , or, perhaps, 1948.
I was not comparing the black population of South Africa to Palestinians. I was simply responding to Robert’s contention that the population of South Africa were better off not being under the control of a colonial power and pointing out what they had done with that freedom.
But, just do deal with your contention that:
“There is no comparison. Arab countries have low crime rates, invariably.”
– how do you classify “honour killings”- or are these not crimes according to your definition?
On the question of morality and the German people ( I prefer this description, since the term “Nazis” implies some other species), you make an interesting point.
I think it proves my contention that, even, morality can be relative.
Some, I would even venture to say most, people, outside of Germany, were shocked at the actions that were taken against the Jews and other minorities ( when they knew about them).
Usually the imprisonment, property appropriations, living and working restrictions, even the castration of those defined as retarded, were all carried on within the framework of the law at the time as applied by the courts.
All of this, and worse, with the full support and agreement and full participation of the vast majority of the German people, who had no moral qualms about the actions or their outcome.
Is there a better example of relative morality?
Well, I assume you will start trotting out comparisons with the Palestinians. But the Jews and other minorities in Germany were not seeking the destruction and elimination of the entire German Nation. They, and their supporters did not fight numerous wars in order to take over German territory for themselves. They did not challenge the existence and right of Germans to live in Germany. The situations are not comparable.
And, while I am flattered by your faith in my legal abilities, I am not a lawyer. I would recommend, however, that should you ever find yourself in need of good legal advice and representation, you could do a lot worse than find yourself a good Jewish lawyer. You may hate them viscerally, but when you need’em , you need’em!
Regarding the kind offer of your final paragraph, and much as you might find it difficult to accept that a Jew could resist the temptation of such a generous offer ($28!) I think I will decline for the moment due to the following reasons:
a) I feel that this a bit like a “catch 22” situation – sort of damned if I do, and damned if I don’t
b) My normal rates are considerably higher than $28!
But feel free to donate this amount to your favourite charity!
Shana Tova!
Andy- DO you enjoy exasperating people? Yes, you do. I fear I shall have to join the ranks of Dota in withdrawing from further debate with you, for theses reasons:
You are very illogical, your analogies are false, you seem to misunderstand the point someone is trying to make (or, pretend to).
You also deny that you are making comparisons when you are, then project the same illogical comparisons onto others. You also put words in others’ mouths, and when your debate opponent is already silently screaming in frustration (which I’m sure you fing amusing) you throw down your ULTIMATE TRUMP CARD- The “H” word.
Of course, what the Nazis did was so bad, that the Jews in general, and Israel, need to be given an all -purpose PASS on everything they do from now to forever- they cannot ever be judged- anyone who does so must “despise Jews”- which is a mental illness they invented: “Anti-S-word-ism”.
Where to start?: You did compare South Africa to Israel- say what you want about Palis, but they don’t act like African Blacks.
Comparing settlement of Israel to earlier Euro colonialism is bullshit- its not the same, for a lot of reasons.
I only said that the ATTIDUDE of Israelis like yourself towards morality reminds me of the Nazis amorality, and self-centeredness. Israel is also a racially-purist state, like what the Nazis were aiming for, but the similarities end after these two points. I would never compare the two, action for action- like you are implying.
Why do you bring up things the Nazis did? They have nothing to do with what Israelis and Jews do now. And why the horseshit about “all Germans” being compliant. What about all the Liberal Democrats, Communists, Trade Unionists, Catholics, the list goes on. You know full well it isn’t true, that the Final Solution was intended to be a state secret that the S.S. only knew about fully…and what does that have to do with Israel?
Why do you keep implying that i personally despise Jews? I do not. Israeli Nationalists? Maybe.
You won’t give the other side any creedence. I’ll give you some points for creative thinking and logic somersaults, back-flips, etc. Your attempts at being charming are likeable in a way but on the whole I just don’t think I can stomach it .
Shalom, Andy! Enjoy your money and your beach house in Eliat!
Lindsay
Would you support Jews’ right to build an autonomous state or build an autonomous government (separate institutions) within a Western country in place of Israel?
Why don’t you just cede New York to the Jews? They already run it and practically own it anyway.
No I only intended this as a thought experiment. I don’t ever want New York to become an autonomous Jewish state. I was thinking of somewhere more sparsely populated.
The Jews already have a state. It’s called New York.
If I may be permitted to insert a note of levity into this very heavy forum, your remark reminded me of an old Jewish joke: it’s about an old Jew who was found crying and wailing in front of the Western (wailing) Wall in Jerusalem, “I want to be with my people, I want to be with my people”!
The bystanders approached him and said “but, you are with your people, here in Jerusalem!” and the old man looked at them, and then replied: “but my people are in Miami!”
OK, so I’m not good at jokes!
Shana Tova to all on the forum
( GSG will explain to the uninitiated!)
Andy
I thought you didn’t do religion.
As a Gay Stater, I hate New York. As far as I’m concerned, the Jews can all leave. I already told you, I want a separate country.
Wasn’t supposed to be a joke with religious connotations.
I don’t do religion – and, apparently, I don’t do good jokes either.
I’ll stay away from both!
Happy New Year, anyway!
P.S. I think we all got the message now, that you don’t like New York…………..
Regarding New York. So many people feel required to say we *heart* NY. But really. Imagine children running around in fields with wildflowers. Imagine clean air and streets that don’t smell like garbage. Imagine friendly neighbors and good hospitality. Imagine public transportation that does not smell like urine. New York has none of that. New York has barred windows and potholes. New York is full of car honking and sirens. New York is full of latte sipping lawyers and Armani clad businessmen who work in “finance.” New York is full of Italian guidos who curse loudly just to hear themselves and Puerto Rican thugs who spit in the street.
Say it loudly and proudly. I hate New York!
Whilst I obviously don’t know the city as well as you, i must admit that on the few occasions I have been there I didn’t like it either, and felt that it had been greatly over-hyped in movies and TV .
But I don’t think my dislike was for exactly the same reasons as you, though I do remember the potholes etc.
Drive four hours north to Boston and it’s a different world. The air is much cleaner, the roads are smoother, the people are friendlier, and you can buy things for a fraction of the cost.
Personally, I’d like to see all the Jew Yorkers leave New York. I do not like New York culture and atmosphere and do not want Jews to be a part of it or to behave like New Yorkers. I want Jews to be part of a separate culture entirely. Is anything wrong with that?
I want Jews to be part of a separate culture entirely. Is anything wrong with that?
Well, I would miss the Larry David-esque humor, but otherwise, I have no objection at all.
Gay Area Guy
Sometimes I get carried away and go off on tangents. But I hate New York and do not want Jews to be part of it. I want Jews to have a distinct culture.
I have demonstrated that I am more patriotic than the majority of “assimilated” Jews.
“Well, I would miss the Larry David-esque humor, but otherwise, I have no objection at all.”
I’m sorry I do not find him amusing. I would happy to get rid of the Woody Allen types. I can’t stand secular Jew York culture and I greatly resent New York being referred to as my “homeland.”
Just kidding, I don’t think it would work and I wouldn’t want to be stuck in a state with repulsive Jewish men anyway. I’m satisfied that secular Jew York culture is disappearing anyway and will no longer dominate the Jewish community anyway. Orthodox Jew Yorkers live a very different culture immersed in their culture and traditions.
@Mott69
If I’m not mistaken, the tagline for this forum, penned by your own chief guru is: “If I’m Not Making You Mad, I’m Not Doing My Job”.
I didn’t understand that this mantra applied to Robert exclusively and that no one else was permitted to piss of any other contributor.
Thought I was just obeying the company rules!
Bye, Mott!
P.S. If you could get around to taking some course in charm and likeability it would make life for those around you so much more pleasant.
Andy- You can send the 100 scheckels (28 bucks ) you owe me to the charity of MY choice instead. Got a pen? Make it out to H-A-M-A-S.
Please be charming somewhere else- you are converting no one here.
“Andy- You can send the 100 scheckels (28 bucks ) you owe me to the charity of MY choice instead. Got a pen? Make it out to H-A-M-A-S.”
Don’t bother. I’m sure Mossad already has =p
I don’t owe you the money since I didn’t take the bet.
But, just for the hell of it I will try to answer this question that you posed:
(name) “THREE THINGS that Jews, and Israel, have been guilty of, that have engendered animosity.”
1. Surviving all attempts to eradicate them over the millenia
2. Creating and developing their own state.
3, Contributing to world knowledge and advancement on a scale and with a degree of success vastly in excess of their proportion of the world population.
I think that the animosity is a combination of envy, jealousy,fear, irrational and/or religious hatred and, quite often, a need to find someone to blame for the world’s ills.
And my purpose is not conversion. With the mindset exemplified on this site that would be futile.
I’m just curious why you choose to disagree with me with such venom.
I think you should seriously consider the suggestion in the P.S. of my previous post.
(name) “THREE THINGS that Jews, and Israel, have been guilty of, that have engendered animosity.”
1. Surviving all attempts to eradicate them over the millenia
2. Creating and developing their own state.
3, Contributing to world knowledge and advancement on a scale and with a degree of success vastly in excess of their proportion of the world population.
I think that the animosity is a combination of envy, jealousy,fear, irrational and/or religious hatred and, quite often, a need to find someone to blame for the world’s ills.
Andyboy, you just don’t get it, do you?
You regurgitate the same arguments regarding why people don’t like Jews.
“Oh, they’re just so jealous of our brains and accomplishments, they’re upset that we survived, blah blah blah.”
Look up the word “politics” and “meddling” in the dictionary, and that will give you a clearer picture of why many people don’t like Jews.
As Jew Among You has noted in his translation of “The Ashkenazi Revolution”, the Israeli Jewish author pointed out that many anti-Semitic backlashes were caused by Jewish power grabs, and I think Nazi anti-Semitism had more to do with their perception of Jews as Communist agitators (which they were in many case) than it did with jealousy over their Nobel Prizes.
(name) “THREE THINGS that Jews, and Israel, have been guilty of, that have engendered animosity.”
1. Surviving all attempts to eradicate them over the millenia
2. Creating and developing their own state.
3, Contributing to world knowledge and advancement on a scale and with a degree of success vastly in excess of their proportion of the world population.
1) Organised crime
2) Treason
3) Usury
I thought that the requirement was limited to elements that could only be applied EXCLUSIVELY to Jews.
The three reasons you cite are equally applicable to non- Jews and, as such, are not really relevant.
But, to dedicated Jew haters, everything is grist to the mill.
Thanks, Johnny! …for that salient burst of sanity.
Score: J-Boy: 3
A-Boy- 0
I was asked to name only three reasons for animosity against Jews. I never said that these were the ONLY reasons.
You are right that , in addition to these three, there are many others. I am sure that the connection of some Jews to the Communist Party upset many Fascists.
As for political involvement; I don’t think that’s a constant in all societies, but I understand that it’s a big issue with you, personally, in America and is a major reason for your attitude to Jews.
Finding reasons too hate Jews isn’t difficult if you are searching for them.
But, for some people, our very existence is sufficient.
@Mott 69
If you consider John’s feeble attempt to tag Jews with actions taken equally by non – Jews as sanity, then I think you just invented a new definition of the word. I think that Orwell would have called it newsspeak.
Don’t feel obliged to reply.
A- Boy: Thanks for inviting me to reply. Actually, is you knew Johnny like we do, you would have gotten my point.
But he, unlike you answered the question, and did it fairly well. I’m not that wild about the organized crime tag, but, yeah, they do that alot in Russia and used to do it here.
He was dead on with Usury- that ol’ money thing is the biggest beef people around the world have with you Semitic people (oops, not the Palis!). Why won’t you acknowledge it?
The Treason tag is accurate, too, but not on a large scale in the U.S., with exception of Pollard, Rosenbergs. People resent Jews not identifying as members of nationalities- only members of their tribe- not cool! Muslims do it too- not good company.
You are like the person, who urged to seek therapy, tells the therapist that the problem is everyone else- they resent your brains, talent and looks.
Yeah- sure, that’s what engenders such animosity…wake up!
Once again your logic astounds…Jews cannot be accused of any negative trait that is shared by any other groups? Huh? OK- you have big, ugly noses- wait…I’m sorry…Italians and Arabs do too…looks like you “win” again, A-Boy!
Whatever…If you ate little children, would you say “lots of tribes do that?” There’s a little taste of your “logic” back you.
John is the man.
Johnny Boy rocks! A-Boy just talks!
Yeah, I always look forward to John’s posts. I told him NE (National Enquirer) should hire him, and he freaked out thinking it was related to the New World Order.
That’s beyond hilarious. Of course, that’s why they (the NE) were sent anthrax in 2001- they knew too much.
Considering the horseshit that passes for reality that is slung at us by the Media Establishment (Time, Newsweek, major newspapers, LOX News, network TV) though, I can see why people crave other sources- they make just much sense.
Drudge was the first to report the Lewinsky scandal and the Enquirer was dead on the money with Ted Kennedy’s love child.
@Gay State Girl
National Enquirer my ass. 😡
My analysis and research into current geopolitical situation with the NWO foreign policy agenda has been 100% accurate including what I said in regards to the rise of the Turkish NWO caliphate on this blog in a comment directed towards you which is now coming to fruition and Israel’s conversion to Orthodox Christianity becoming part of the anti-Christ resistance block of the Orthodox confederation.
Maybe andyboy will be the first Orthodox convert in this transformation once the Turkish caliphate which Israel supports turns against Israel.
Ditch STRATFOR and read JOHNFOR. 😀
Have no fear.
I will never convert to anything that depends on some deity for its inspiration and focus.
BTW can you explain in greater detail what is Israel’s alleged support for anything Turkish at this delicate moment in relations between the two countries?
John
I also believe in the existence of a global New World Order, and am beginning to buy into what I had once dismissed as taboo, but you have to be very selective about your allegations, and prophecies say as well as your word choice to avoid sounding like a loon and turning people off. Avoid using terms like illuminati, anti christ etc.
Andy
But last week you wished us all Shana Tova and asked me to explain to the uninitiated.
“”but you have to be very selective about your allegations, and prophecies say as well as your word choice to avoid sounding like a loon and turning people off. Avoid using terms like illuminati, anti christ etc.”””
Stop ruining it for the rest of us!
Johnny boy, you will remember nothing of this conversation (clicks ball point pen/neuralyzer).
@ Dota
LOL, and here I was hoping that Johnny Boy would settle down eventually.
Dammit GSG, stop encouraging him! 🙂
@Gay State Girl
I never said anything about the illuminate but the anti-Christ description is accurate as the British lead NWO has historically been anti-Orthodox Christian as it is the only bulwark against the NWO which is amazingly fulfilling biblical prophecy laid out in the bible which they are using Pan Turanianism Islamic terror network to control Eurasia and the world.
Brzezinski the father of international Islamic terrorism and Obamas current senior foreign policy advisor stated this as much in his 97 book The Grand Chessboard.
“Ever since the continents started interacting politically, some five hundred years ago, Eurasia has been the center of world power.”- (p. xiii)
“It is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges capable of dominating Eurasia and thus of also challenging America. The formulation of a comprehensive and integrated Eurasian geostrategy is therefore the purpose of this book.” (p. xiv)
“The momentum of Asia’s economic development is already generating massive pressures for the exploration and exploitation of new sources of energy and the Central Asian region and the Caspian Sea basin are known to contain reserves of natural gas and oil that dwarf those of Kuwait, the Gulf of Mexico, or the North Sea.” (p.125)
“In fact, an Islamic revival – already abetted from the outside not only by Iran but also by Saudi Arabia – is likely to become the mobilizing impulse for the increasingly pervasive new nationalisms, determined to oppose any reintegration under Russian – and hence infidel – control.” (p. 133).”
Article on the history of Pan Turanianism
http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/AzarbayeganPart1.html
Authors biblical analysis of anti-Christ army from Chapter 10 of his book Will Islam Be Our Future? A Study of Biblical and Islamic Eschatology
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch10_the_revived_islamic_empire.htm
@Dota
Johnny boy, you will remember nothing of this conversation (clicks ball point pen/neuralyzer).
As long as you don’t convert me to the slave death cult of Islam than I would be totally fucked just like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Iran, Egypt, etc.
@andyboy
Have no fear.
I will never convert to anything that depends on some deity for its inspiration and focus.
I thought Judaism is waiting for what they consider the true messiah?
Even the Christ Zionists believe that Israel has to fall for the arrival of the second coming.
BTW can you explain in greater detail what is Israel’s alleged support for anything Turkish at this delicate moment in relations between the two countries?
They work together in operations in the Caucasus and the current operation against Syria and are also involved in smuggling nuclear material as FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds revealed.
@Bay Area Guy
”LOL, and here I was hoping that Johnny Boy would settle down eventually.
Dammit GSG, stop encouraging him!”
Do you like South Africa and Mexico BAG?
When the Bailout money starts to dry up and the global economy starts to go into freefall with the banking collapse which the US does not have enough domestic food and energy reserves to support its population you will be living under black and Hispanic rule.
Your “logic”astounds me as much as mine seems to astound you. I could understand Jew hatred centred around traits or actions that ONLY Jews have or do.
But to highlight examples like organised crime and treason, for example, makes no sense. With the former it would probably be more logical to hate Italians, or Russians.
And to use treason as an excuse when you can only point to 3 Jews who have been convicted in the USA in the past 60 odd years compared with a considerably greater number of non Jews is clutching at straws.. Incidentally, Wikipedia doesn’t recognise that either the Rosenbergs or Pollard were convicted of this crime. I think that in both cases they were convicted of the lesser charge of spying.
In any event, the issue is that if Jews do something that is not acceptable, then they can be hated for it. if non-Jews do the same thing, then they are judged according to a different standard.
Explain the logic of that!
It’s your initial premise that is silly- that animosity towards Jews could only be understood by you as being “logical” if it involved things that “only Jews do”. That is an absurb position.
Gypsies, then, could not be despised for the traits they universally reviled for: fraud, stealing, cheating, because OTHERS do these things too. (Jews? Oops.) That would be illogical? Huh?
Blacks could be reviled for being especially violent, because other groups are violent…etc. etc. This bullshit non-logic could be applied ad-infinitum and ad nauseum to any and all. Nobody’s guilty of anything…unless it’s a “unique” thing?
Well, I’m gonna throw down the “H” card here and say that the Nazis were just doing what a lot of groups (including Jews) have done- tried to annihilate their perceived enemies in genocidal fashion, down to women and children, like the Turks did to the Armenians, Hutus, Tutsies. So we can’t hate them now either, Andy?
And other thing: I never hurled “venom” at you- why did you say I did? I never claimed that animosity is logical at its core, and I didn’t list Treason and Crime- someone else did. Stop ascribing to me things I didn’t say, please.
I think it is logical to use exclusive traits or actions to explain personal antipathy to any particular group, Jews, Gypsies or Blacks, for example.
Otherwise it is simply a matter of disliking those traits or actions on their own merits without reference to the specific group.
You can believe that stealing, for example, is morally reprehensible, and condemn any individual who steals. If the thief happens to be Jewish, are you condemning the action itself, or the fact that the perpetrator was a Jew?
Logic condemns the action. Anti-Semites condemn the Jew. That’s the difference.
As far as the Germans, the Turks, the Hutus or the Tutsies are concerned, if you want to hate them, be my guest. I see no reason to interfere with your personal view of them.
Other people will have to decide if they feel that the tone of your posts to me constitutes “venomous language”. Maybe that’s just the way you are.
And regarding the treason and crime thing – I recall that you were pretty enthusiastic about John’s proposals ( John 3 – Andy 0).
Don’t try to hide behind someone else who said what you wish you’d thought of!
I am gonna give up after this- I simply won’t have time to respond to you due to the fact that somebody just asked me if I’d like to spend the next seven days bashing my head against a wall, and I’m gonna have to take him up on that, instead. Sorry, Andy!
I realize that I’ve had some typos in my posts (this interface is awful for proofing). But I am astonished at how you misinterpret everything said by me- and I see you doing it to everyone else, too.
“Don’t try to hide behind someone else who said what you wish you’d thought of!” I’m the one who asked the question, Andy. Was I supposed to answer my own question? And I told you what I thought of the answers. I scored it 3-0 because you never truly answered the question!
Here’s the deal: the same tactics that I see you use in debate, I see in the strategy of Israhell hardliners: 1) Admit nothing. When pressed, claim that you are persecuted for your virtues. 2) Solicit concessions- when you get them, do a victory dance and throw it in the world’s face- but never concede anything back. 3) Claim that all opposition is “Anti-S-Wordism”, call it an illness, and claim that all Anti-S-Worders are Nazis- (just as you claimed that all Germans were Nazis) 4) Distort, exaggerate, conflate, and grossly misrepresent opposing views, then claim that the opposition makes no sense. 5) Play the victim card ad infinitum when it hasn’t been relevant for generations.
When less than 1 percent of humanity has that much of the wealth…are you kidding me? The Jews are not the most persecuted on Earth: the most persecuted and victimized groups are marginalized, impovershed, and are either extinct or being driven to extinction.
In every one of your responses- you imply that I am a “Jew-Hater”, when in fact I am nothing of the sort.
Thankfully, not all J’s are like you, and not all Israelis are like you, either. The only hope for that godforsaken snakepit is that the more liberal, leftist elements will eventually take over, allowing some kind of compromise to take place. True, its fate may be sealed by demographics, but that ‘s yet another reason why it was such an asinine idea in the first place.
And, if it was “God’s” idea (the Jew God, of course), then it’s just more proof that “He” is an idiot!
Done.
So, I understand that when confronted with opinions that differ from yours, you respond with a plethora of claims having no basis in fact.
Example: I never claimed that all Germans were Nazis. What I said was that the events that took place in Germany, let’s say from 1933 onwards, could not have happened without the knowledge, widespread agreement and frequent compliance of a majority of the German people. Fact.
Now – also done ( with you, at least)
P.S. I don’t do God or organised religion.
You know, I think it’s funny how Israelis like Andyboy frequently assign collective responsibility to Germans, yet fail to recognize the implications of such collective responsibility for them.
Germany was a fascist, authoritarian state that tolerated no dissent and German soldiers who disobeyed orders faced severe punishment.
Israel is an open, Democratic society (the only Democracy in the Middle East!) with a free, vibrant press, a citizen’s army, and the worse that happens to an Israeli soldier who disobeys an immoral order is a small amount of jail time.
When viewed in that light, I’d say Israel deserves a hell of a lot more “collective responsibility” than Germans of the past, and certainly Germans today, who had nothing to do with the holocaust.
I’ve quit this discussion, but there is just one last point I wish to make. When it comes to collective responsibility you cant compare Nazi Germany to Israel because of the different set of circumstances. Germany was traumatized by a devasting war that had left the nation in shambles. The germans did look the other way as the jews were being erased and I’m not justifying this. However I can understand why they saw Hitler as a saviour. Israel on the hand was never under any kind of threat. Trained and armed to the teeth by the British, they had the upper hand against all of their neighbours. Much of the war in 1948 was fought on the land which was designated to become the Arab state by the same UN res that was to partition Palestine. So much for a war of self defence. The same was true in 1967. Western analysts knew and understood that Israel wasn’t under any real threat. Israeli behaviour is just pshycotic.
For someone who quit, you’re really quite active.
But your history is as rocky as ever.
“Israel was never under any kind of threat”?
You mean in 1948 when she was invaded by 5 Arab Armies?
Or 1967 when only pre-emptive defense saved her from the might of Egypt and Syria?
Or, maybe 1973, when a surprise attack from Egypt was only repelled with massive losses?
These were not threats? What were they- gentle warnings?
Not only were the Jews not armed by the British, but it was the British who were instrumental in preventing arms from reaching the Jews
And it was the Jordanian Army that was armed by the British and was under the command of a British officer, Sir John Glubb ( “Glubb Pasha). It was considered the strongest fighting force in the Middle East, at that time.
There is so much more, but I’ve already spent too much time on a post
that will flow over your head like water off a duck’s back.
I always forget that you never let the facts get in the way of your prejudice.
Now, is this REALLY goodbye?
Except for that last post, I wasn’t even really talking to you.
“Germany was a fascist, authoritarian state that tolerated no dissent and German soldiers who disobeyed orders faced severe punishment.”
Not according to the extensive research of Daniel Goldhagen. If you can, please find the time to read his book “Hitler’s Willing Executioners”. It paints a somewhat different picture.
And are you really asserting that what happened to the Jews in Germany after 1933 was NOT with the knowledge, support, agreement and compliance of a majority of Germans?
Regarding you remarks about Israeli democracy. Of course it’s not perfect. But it does have all the positive elements you attribute to it, including a very pro-active High Court whose many decisions against government actions you well know. Our neighbours would die to live in a democracy as ours ( well, i suppose, many of them are doing just that, currently).
On the question of “collective responsibility” I don’t see any evidence that Israelis are shying away from that. On the contrary; in 3 opinion polls just published today, it seems that the overwhelming majority of the citizens are willing to say, openly and without shame, that they DO support the government policies, particularly in regard to protecting our security interests.
You are not obliged to agree with their viewpoint, but you cannot claim that they hide it.
Unlike the Germans.
Non-Goy-Boy: Apparently, some historians read that book and pronounced it a piece of sh**.
From, that very biased source, Wiki:
The book was a “publishing phenomenon”,[1] achieving fame in both the United States and Germany, despite its “mostly scathing” reception among historians,[2] who were unusually vocal in condemning it as ahistorical and, in the words of Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, “totally wrong about everything” and “worthless”.[3][4]
I suggest everyone read the whole article- Jewish historians codemn the book as well. Thanks, Andy!
LOL, oh Andyboy, you hasbara agents are the gift that keeps on giving.
Israeli’s don’t shy away from collective responsibility?!
You evidence? That they overwhelmingly support the government and its policies?
I wouldn’t call that “collective responsibility” so much as a complete lack of shame. Israelis openly supported the bombardment of Gaza and many (if not most) openly support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank.
Oh, and they would certainly no a thing about “collective responsibility” when applying it to others, as they frequently impose collective punishment on the palestinians.
You talk about the Germans not having an excuse for not knowing.
Well, let’s look at Israelis, who have an open press, are part of a citizens army (and thus know first-hand what their country does to the Palestinians), and in spite of all that, they openly and unapologetically support Israeli’s oppressive policies.
Soon, history will revile you the way they reviled the 3rd Reich.
“You evidence? That they overwhelmingly support the government and its policies?
I wouldn’t call that “collective responsibility” so much as a complete lack of shame.”
I should print and frame this.
I’m a very giving person and if I stopped contributing, this site would simply become a forum for unchallenged monotonous repetition of self propagating anti- Jewish and anti-Zionist rhetoric. At least I provide you with a focus.
That you don’t like the Israeli government, or it’s policies, does not relate to the fact that these policies are supported by a majority of the population. As you say, we are an open society and no one is pretending that they are not broadly aware of what is happening.
The Germans hid behind feigned ignorance when it came to accountability.
And I think you are a little confused as to who was bombarding whom from Gaza. I think that 10,000 or so rockets and missiles directed at Israeli cities could constitute a definition of bombardment in the eyes of some people.
But, of course, no one else on THIS site.
And as far as history is concerned, it will take whatever course those who write it will decide.
Future generations will just have to pick their path through the conflicting versions, and come to their own conclusions.
I see that you reject Goldhagen’s thesis based on a paragraph or two in wikipedia.
Reading the book yourself and then coming to a conclusion would be more relevant to any debate.
We have previously referred in this forum to the the problems of historical narrative and that fact that each historian has his own agenda. How can a historian defend his analysis without criticising others who came to different conclusions?
The fact that the Nazi party secured the largest number of votes and seats in the federal elections of March 1933 is indisputable.
Regarding the “Final Solution”and it’s implementation, simple logic determines that it could not have been carried out without the willing and active participation of many hundreds of thousands of Germans.
And these Germans had families and friends and neighbours. all of whom were witness to the rounding up of Jews, destruction of Jewish property, and all the limitations of the Nuremburg Race Laws in the years prior to the actions.
The major line of defence of the Germans when challenged after the war was the defence of ignorance. “We didn’t know”!
Really!
Holocaust Boy- If the H-word hadn’t occurred- what would you talk about?
Why bring up this stuff about “all Germans”?
Nazis came to power with 17 million votes in a country of 70 million people. Do the math. They won 43%, but that means 47% didn’t vote for them.
When a broad consensus of historians thinks a book by one historian is a piece of shit, I’ll take their word. Ain’t gonna read his book.
The SS did the H-Word thing- they numbered about 1 million or so. A lot af Germans hated Jews, absolutely, probably the vast majority had an unfavorable view of them. A lot of Germans had Jewish ancestry, and most had Jewish people that they knew. Many had Jewish friends, colleagues.
The number of Germans who would have approved of the death camps would have been very large, but not a majority. They only wanted the Jews out- the more fanatical Nazis wanted them dead.
The Nazis never, ever stated pubicly what their intentions were regarding the Jews, other than deporting them and taking their posessions. Big difference between hating someone, advocating their deportation even, and signing off on the death camps- which were held as a state secret, and were something that no German could do anything to stop. The only thing that could have been done was to remove Hitler, which many were plotting…
But you know, the H-Word is all you care about- the Nazis terrorized the German population, as well as the populations of every country they invaded. They killed more non-Jews by far.
If you were hiding in my basement, though, Andy, I’d rat you out in a second! (/:=))
From the tone of your posts and your repetitive use of “H”word and Holocaust, a casual observer might think that you are rather more obsessed with this issue than me.
The mathematical structure of determining who truly “won” an election depends on what you think about the whole voting system. For example. your President Obama was elected by 53% of those who actually voted. George Bush by 50.7%. These percentages are substantially reduced if you factor in those who were entitled to vote but chose not to.
In the UK at the last election, the Conservative party received only 32% of those who voted. Since voter turnout was 61% David Cameron actually became Prime Minister with less than 20% of the maximum possible vote.
On these bases of calculation, the National Socialists were elected by a massive percentage.
Do you actually know who constituted the “broad consensus” who disputed Goldhagen’s conclusions. Do you know their individual agendas and prejudices? History is not an exact science. Everyone believes what fits his own worldview.
And regarding what percentage of the German population participated in actions, of whatever degree, against Jews, my problem is not about how many took part. It’s about the fact that, amazingly, after the war it was almost impossible to find a German who would admit to knowing anything about anything.
It was a classic case of “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil”.
And I must make a mental note never to hide in your basement.
@ Andyboy
You know, sometimes I can’t help but think that you’re a self-parody of a stereotypical dogmatic Zionist, because your statements on Israel couldn’t be more out of Abe Foxman’s playbook if you tried.
That you don’t like the Israeli government, or it’s policies, does not relate to the fact that these policies are supported by a majority of the population. As you say, we are an open society and no one is pretending that they are not broadly aware of what is happening.
LOL
So in other words, you guys are fully aware of what is happening, and yet you STILL actively support the crimes your government is committing?
See, Andyboy, I don’t know what is worse. Supposedly feigned ignorance on the part of the Germans, or having a large majority of the population unapologetically and openly supporting their government’s oppressive policies, and then having the nerve to accuse their critics of “new Anti-Semitism” and “delegitimization” whenever they have the guts to point that fact out.
And I think you are a little confused as to who was bombarding whom from Gaza. I think that 10,000 or so rockets and missiles directed at Israeli cities could constitute a definition of bombardment in the eyes of some people.
Well, maybe if you guys hadn’t been:
1) Occupying the place in the first place
2) Encouraging Jewish settlement in Gaza, where they got to enjoy a disproportionate amount of key resources.
3) Subjecting Gaza to a brutal embargo upon withdrawing the settlements, thus strangling their economy and rendering the inhabitants bitterly impoverished…
They wouldn’t be launching rockets at you.
Besides, if you think dropping white phosphorus shells on schools and destroying other forms of infrastructure was “fighting terrorists,” then you are beyond help.
And as far as history is concerned, it will take whatever course those who write it will decide.
Yes, and you Zionists and hasbara agents have certainly been hard at work in that regard, but people are now on to you.
Do you actually know who constituted the “broad consensus” who disputed Goldhagen’s conclusions.
For starters, let’s try Raul Hilberg, the most prolific, prominent and respected (and JEWISH) historian of the Nazi holocaust.
He dismissed Goldhagen’s book as worthless.
Do you know their individual agendas and prejudices?
HAHA, of course, because you wouldn’t know anything about individual agendas and prejudices, would you, Andyboy?
Let’s just say that if you look closely at Goldhagen, his individual prejudices become readily apparent.
The major line of defence of the Germans when challenged after the war was the defence of ignorance. “We didn’t know”!
Really!
And what will be the defense of Israelis when history passes its judgment on them for their crimes?
If “anti-Semitism!” and “Arab terrorist attacks!” are on your mind, I will just say you had better do better than that.
It was a classic case of “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil”.
And I guess the Israeli model would be “see evil, hear evil, unashamedly speak out in support of such evil, work overtime to get others (particularly the U.S.) to support our evil, and then accuse critics who point out our evil of anti-Semitism and delegitimizing double standards”.
That’s about right.
“They wouldn’t be launching rockets at you.
Besides, if you think dropping white phosphorus shells on schools and destroying other forms of infrastructure was “fighting terrorists,” then you are beyond help. ”
I’m no Hasbara spokesperson, but I’m not naive about Hamas either. I do doubt whether white Phosphorus was used in Gaza. That one is straight out of Pallywood.
You, and people who think like you, call Israel’s actions “crimes”. You are not obliged to see these things through our eyes and in our situation. I have stated before that each sovereign nation must do what it feels to be in the best interests of its citizens. That is the duty of its government.
You see our policies as “oppressive”. I see them as necessary to our survival in a hostile environment. If our existence here offends you and causes you to regard us in the way that you do, so be it.
I am not trying to pretend that we are unaware of the situation; My point was to distinguish us from the Germans who pretended not to know what was happening in their name.
Regarding Gaza, I understand that this is a real blind spot for you. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza in September 2005. Not a single Israeli
( with the notable exception of Gilad Shalit) remains there. Whatever happened prior to this withdrawal has no connection and no relevance to the attacks on Israel from Gaza after 2005.
The image that you paint of Gaza today is taken straight from the Hamas song sheet. It is not true. It never was true, and repeating the mantra cannot make it true. And if you think that defending yourself against an enemy, whose very constitution and repeated declarations call for the destruction of Israel and all Jews, is not fighting terror then, I regret to say, that it is you who is beyond help.
Regarding the culpability and degree of participation and enthusiasm of those Germans who actively or passively supported the ideology of the National Socialists, the amount of historical narrative is massive. Historians, as is their wont, simply argue about the nuances and interpretations.
Whether they disagree,or not, the question remains. What did the German people know- and when did they know it!
I understand that you prefer to accept the feigned ignorance option. I am, as ever, curious why you claim that my perspective is prejudiced, and yours is not. Prejudice, for you, is when the other party doesn’t see or explain things as you do.
I am not afraid of the judgement of history. Perhaps future generations will see far more clearly than you, who were the REAL victims here. I admit that the Arab and Palestinian PR machine has done a great snow job. I guess that the combination of petrodollars and a world fearful of Islam has helped them no end.
And, regarding Anti-Semitism and double standards, I have no need to accuse anyone.
This forum speaks for itself.
@Gay State Girl
Wishing everyone a happy New Year was just a courtesy. If this has religious connotations for some that is up to them.
I also wish people “Happy Christmas” – which has about as much religious significance to me as it does to most of the recipients.
And, if you do. be well over the fast!
Randy- My agent tells me you’re the cat’s meow when it comes to pro-Israeli propaganda- call me- I need a new speechwriter. – Bibi
@ bibi netanyahoo
Mott, is that you?
Maht? Matz? Matzo who? My name’s Bibi- I currently run two countries, you may have heard of me- I have dual citizenship in both- a unique circumstance to say the least!
Speaking of Matzos, I was just in the kitchen making a large Israeli Flag out of crushed Matzo Balls (Manischewitz brand- is there another?) and a rare Blue Algae recently discovered in the Dead Sea (previously only found in toilet bowls). I know seafood ain’t exactly kosher, so I’m having a Rabbi drop by to smear the mixture across his chest and rub it into his beard in order to purify and bless this particular recipe.
Now, Al ta’atzben otti, BAG, I’m trying to talk to that mitromem mizdayen batahat ben zona Randy!
@ Bibi
LOL! 🙂
My name’s Bibi- I currently run two countries,
So Bibi, as an insider, can you enlighten us as to other potential dual agents?
Hehe.
Dual Agents? Let’s just say it would read like a “who’s who” of the U.S. Knesset, I mean Congress. Wait, actually I misspoke…It IS the “Who’s Who of the U.S. Congress”. Pretty cool, eh?
Then there’s Alan Douchewitz, Elie Weasel, the list goes on. Did I mention I dated Diane Feinstein (nee Frankenstein) in high school?
Of course, the Israeli/American People will forever be indebted to that Aussie-Israeli, Jewpert Murdoch, and his Lox News Network, without which our propaganda message could not have been spread for the last 15 years. Shalom and mazeltov!
Is that you Mott?
@ BAG @ GSG- I’ve been hacked!
Regarding Bibi Netanyahu being President
I believe LBJ met with Golda Meir and asked her how she would like to be the President of a country with 250 million residents. She replied, “But how would YOU like to be PM of a country with 4 million Presidents?”
GSG- What’s even funnier is, Golda took him up on the offer! And the rest is history, the U.S.S. Liberty, the ascension of our man Kissinger to the highest level of power. You Americans think you have democratic elections, but well know that your candidates must first pledge allegiance to Israel before they can be elected!
Thanks for the accolade.
When can we discuss terms?
Randy- Meet me in the alley behind the offices for the U.S. House of Representatives. I’ll be wearing a skull cap, a fake beard, side curls, and a black overcoat, posing a diamond merchant from Brussels. Just remember, I’m a kike, so don’t expect me to pay you much, yah pin noteph ziva!
Your attempts at humour are so pathetic and infantile that its not worth wasting the bandwith to reply.
I hope the rest of the forum doesn’t descend to your level, otherwise it’s goodbye to rational, if sometimes, rancorous , debate.
Randy- Au contraire, I think I’m kind of humorous at times, you should lighten up! Further, I will agree not to joke around, if you will agree not to be illogical. Since you will not or can not do this, I think we have a stalemate. Kinda like the situation in the “Middle East”= Israel v. Palestinians. I promise to be serious if you promise not to lie! Deal?
Mott
Golda was referring to the fact that Israel is a bottom up society and the cab driver thinks he can tell the PM what to do.
You know what? I’m sick and tired of Israel and Israeli firsters treating diaspora Jews as if they’re sheep. Always expecting us to provide you with political and financial support and giving us nothing in return, besides for a ten day tour to emotionally attach us to Israel. I have enough of my own problems to give my time or money to Israel. And I’m sick of Israel and Zionist organizations going on about the threat of antisemitism and assimilation so as to create and atmosphere of pessimism for elderly jews and to con them into donating their life savings. That was my rant of the day!
GSG- Yes, that was quite a funny from ol’ Golda. Very true, too…which is another reason why Israelis bear so much resposibility for their gov’t’s actions.
I couldn’t agree more with your rant, but not being Jewish myself, I resent even more the Zio-Israel 1st crowd trying to manipulate Born-Again Christians, other Christians, and all secular Americans into complete, unquestioning support.
Liberal? Conservative? Then, you have to support them- or risk expulsion from the political process and from public life. “America’s Greatest Ally”- who has never done anything for us, ever.
They insult the intelligence of all of us.
“I resent even more the Zio-Israel 1st crowd trying to manipulate Born-Again Christians, other Christians, and all secular Americans into complete, unquestioning support.”
True, sorry if I left non jews out (the great majority), but I feel that’s pretty much a given at this point. I brought up the situation of diaspora jews because I see how Israel and Israel firsters play on the post Holocaust trauma among elderly jews. I can see how traumatized my grandmother is.
I am angry about non Jewish americans being forced to support Israel but I feel the same way about non Arab Muslims being forced to sacrifice their reputation and well being for a people who show no gratitude.
I’m sick of Israeli organizations calling my parents house and asking for donations.
“non Arab Muslims being forced to sacrifice their reputation and well being for a people who show no gratitude.”
You mean the Palis? Yeah , but it’s fake- Muslims, Arabs, non-Arabs, only pretend to support each other- they don’t get along or even like each other- but will defend all Muslims against non-Muslims (allegedly).
The Palis are not really liked by the others- they are just used as a propaganda tool by them- very true. The Sunnis hate the Shiites, the Persians despise the Arabs. There is no monolithic “Muslim” identity as a unified force- it’s phony (except those Al Qaida nuts- they are on the same page, but are fairly few).
I don’t know about the general populations of those countries, but some govenrments are more radical than Palestinian leadership. In my experience, the Arabs were relatively quiet about the Palestinian compared to South Asians and Black Muslims and many of these people had never met a Palestinian in their lives.
@Bibi without a button
The obvious problem with your proposed deal is, that in evaluating whether or not I have complied with your requirements, you will be the prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner
If you allege that my facts are not true and my logic is flawed, what will be the basis of the deal?
And, given the tone of your posts to me until now, I’m not sure that you a the kind of person I would want to deal with, anyway.
Andy- Now you know how it feels to debate someone who doesn’t use logic. Frustrating, no? So, I take it you are not agreeing “not to lie”? OK, fine. Feel free to twist everything I say, too, set up straw men and put words in my mouth.
“Judge, jury and executioner”? Did you just call me a Nazi or a Fascist? I’m sorry but I do take real offense at that- you’re implying that I endorse physically harming people I disagree with, or those I don’t like. That is absolutely false and really insulting, frankly. You basically are saying that I’m threatening you with bodily harm just because you are a member of some stupid religion (that you don’t even believe in), just because I think you are being disingenuous. Everyone who attacks your arguments wants to throw you and yours into a gas chamber? Are we paranoid, here, Andy? Are we playing the victim card, Andy? That’s lame!
And other thing- your attempts at Limey smarmy charm are actually grating- my best friend is English and he agrees that nothing is more irritating than that fake niceness and loquaciousness that limeys excel at, especially when they are actually being condescending and insulting. Not cute, Andy!
But lets get back to facts: The Nazis garnered on average about 35 percent or so of the possible voters (15 million out of 40 million) in their last “sorta-free” elections- with massive violence and voter intimidation, no less. This is a “massive percentage”, or a mandate, according to you. You don’t do math either, do you?
Why do “all Germans” have to be guilty? So you can keep the H-Word industry going, keep the guilt/sympathy factory going, so that Jews and Israel cannot be criticized. Brilliant!
I have understood for some time that logic was not one of your strongest points, but it’s good that you admit it, at last.
What is this “not to lie”nonsense? How can I agree not to do something that I was not doing, anyway?
I don’t recall calling you a Fascist. You must have an extraordinarily thin skin be able to place such an interpretation on a remark that was intended to be taken figuratively. I was trying to point out the absurdity of your offer if you were to be the sole arbiter of compliance.
How you managed to ascribe to my remark the interpretation that you did, demonstrates an extraordinary abundance of paranoia.
Just to clarify another one of your wild assertions; I am a member of the Jewish people. A people is different from a race or a religion.
I am not a member of any religion, and I don’t understand how you classify Judaism, or any other religion, “”stupid”.
You really go over the top with your constant referrals to the Holocaust and, now, gas chambers. I never play any “victim card”. Reminding you that Jews have been victims of much persecution over the millennia is purely a statement of historical fact.
That you refer to the English as “limeys” ( and have previously referred to Jews as “kikes”) illustrates a degree of racial intolerance that is, presumably, a reflection of your total world view. It also explains why you regard courtesy and good manners with such disdain. I’m sorry, but I am not willing to descend to your level and will continue to express myself in what is, i hope, a dignified manner.
The National Socialists were elected in 1932 by a greater majority than can elect leaders today in modern democracies. Even the processes by which elections are decided are still subject to debate.
For example, some find your Electoral College system quite strange. And many criticise the “first past the post system” still used in the U.K.
My main point was to do with what happened after the election. The degree of enthusiasm with which the National Socialist policies were welcomed by the German people and the willingness they displayed in carrying them out.
I never said “all Germans were guilty” but you seem to be trying to assert that NO Germans were guilty.
There is no connection at all between trying to establish this historical reality and modern day criticism of Israel.
You are not obligated to agree with the policies of the Israeli government, or the government of any country. No one is denying you the right to your opinion.
The fact that I believe that your conclusions are flawed, due to your choosing to follow the Palestinian narrative has nothing to do with the Germans.
Illogical Randy- Do you even read what I write? No you don’t, obviously, because I read every word of your responses, and about 95% is pure b.s.! There is no way I can respond to every lie and distortion that you post- not enough hours in the day!
I’ll just re-print one gem from you:
“I never said “all Germans were guilty” but you seem to be trying to assert that NO Germans were guilty.”
Yes, you did, and no, I didn’t.
Or this one: “The fact that I believe that your conclusions are flawed, due to your choosing to follow the Palestinian narrative”
Not! I’ve never even read any Pali propaganda, and frankly, I disregard what they say publicly- they are too biased as a source.
Thanks for explaining electoral systems, but I have a B.A. in Political Science/Minor in History so that is not neccessary.
The Nazis came to power via the Parliamentary system, not the plurality/first past the post system, which is the U.S. and U.K. use- there is no logic in bringing these other systems.
The French employ a system that requires that the President be elected by a majority of the electorate- over 50%, or they hold run-offs until one does. This could have prevented someone like Hitler form taking control the way he did- by just having his party win a plurality of seats in Parliament.
True, in the U.S., someone like Sarah Palin could get elected with only about 15-20 percent of the potential electorate, given, the abysmal turnout and non-registered potential voters in the U.S.
Well, at least you acknowledge that there is truth in 5% of my explanations. I think that, in the context of this forum, that is quite an achievement.
I have looked back on my previous posts on this subject and have been unable to locate a single occasion in which I stated that ALL Germans participated actively in the implementation of the government policies. Can you please point out the relevant post?
For someone who has never read Palestinian propaganda, the general line of your arguments is remarkably close to theirs.
I guess it must just be coincidence.
Regarding the electoral system. The fact is that, according to the system that was in place at the time of the election, the National Socialists did win the largest percentage of the vote for any one party and had the biggest block of seats in the parliament.
But I was more concerned with the degree of support and compliance with the Laws subsequently passed by this parliament.
If your argument is that the National Socialists were NOT elected by popular vote,and that the vast majority of the German people were actually opposed to National Socialism, and everything it represented, where was this opposition? How did it manifest itself?
I think we both now that there was active compliance and passive compliance. And, together, this for sure was the majority.
Here’s your relevant post: “Once the Germans understood that the Jews would not be welcome anywhere in the world they, being a practical people , chose a pragmatic answer (The Final Solution).”
Here’s another: “All of this, and worse, with the full support and agreement and full participation of the vast majority of the German people, who had no moral qualms about the actions or their outcome.”
@Bibi
P.S.
FYI – following is an extract from a book review of Robert Gellately’s book “Backing Hitler”. Gellately broadly supports Daniel Goldhagens’s research although his conclusions about why the German people supported Hitler so enthusiastically are not identical. But he doesn’t dispute that they did.
[4]. Scholars were of course far more outspoken. Suffice it here to quote from A.J.P. Taylor’s 1964 Foreword (“Second Thoughts”) to the paperback reissue of his The Origins of the Second World War (first published 1961): “He [Hitler] would have counted for nothing without the support and cooperation of the German people. It seems to be believed nowadays that Hitler did everything himself, even driving the trains and filling the gas chambers unaided. This was not so. Hitler was a sounding-board for the German nation. Thousands, many hundred thousands, Germans carried out his evil orders without qualm or question” (The Origins of the Second World War. London : Penguin Books, 1964, p.26).
Illogical Randy- Oh, yeah, you’re right! Now that you’ve found ONE possibly reputable scholar who wrote a book that appears to back up the discredit Goldhagen’s (and your) theories, this makes it all true! No….
Seems Gellaty bases his theory on the fact that there were only 42,000 Gestapo members- not enough to round up everyone- so they must have had help from the entire German people.
Um, yeah, but there were 1.5 million S.S. members, and the regular Police- the Ordnungspolzei- who Goldhagen blames for the roundups- numbered 500,00 and were UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE S.S. This effectively discredis Goldhagen’s theory- that because the regular police were involved to a high degree- the German people were involved to a high degree.
Goldhagen (who’s father survived the camps, so he’s REALLY UNBIASED) quotes A.J Taylor. So this makes it true? Let’s look at Taylor:
Taylor held fierce Germanophobic views. In 1944, he was temporarily banned from the BBC following complaints about a series of lectures he gave on air in which he gave full vent to his anti-German feelings. In his 1945 book, The Course of German History, he argued that National Socialism was the inevitable product of the entire history of the Germans going back to the days of the Germanic tribes. He was an early champion of what has since been called the Sonderweg (Special Way) interpretation of German history, that German culture and society developed over the centuries in such a way as to make Nazi Germany inevitable. (Wiki)
Also: As angry as the reaction in Britain was to The Origins of the Second World War, it was greater when the book was published in January 1962 in the United States. With the exception of Harry Elmer Barnes, every American historian who reviewed Taylor’s book gave it a negative review. (Wiki).
But enough about the Nazis- they have nothing to do Israel itself.
You keep bring up the Nazis and Germans because you want to frame all whp oppose Israeli as Nazis and defenders of Nazis. So, you keep making wild, non-historical comments about them, hoping some will take that bait and come out looking like a “Defender” of Nazis- and implicity of their behavior. That really sucks- very disingenuous, Mr. Illogic.
Let’s get back to Israel, Mr. Fallacy in Argument, Mr. Red Herring, Mr, Straw Man, the list goes on. Can you be logical?
Your extract from Wikipedia regarding A.J.P Taylor is very selective. You omitted the line:
“Despite the criticism, The Origins of the Second World War is regarded as a watershed in the historiography of the origins of the Second World War. In general, historians have praised Taylor”.
But I really don’t want to continue a sterile argument about the relative merits of historians. And I was never trying to connect the posts about Germans with what is happening today in the Middle East.
The issue only arose over the question of how much the German people supported the policies of the National Socialists and the degree of their awareness about the results of those policies, compared with the degree of Israeli support for, and knowledge of the effects, of its governments policies.
@Bibi
I was thinking today ( and I know that you know what day it is today) that maybe you would like to translate the last two Insults to me, which you made in transliterated Hebrew, into your very best English.
Then, perhaps, others will understand why it is so difficult to enter into a civilised debate with someone having such an infantile mind and a mouth like a sewer.
Did you have to study to be so disgusting, or did it come naturally?
Illogical Randy- “Do I know what day it is?”
Are you serious? I spent all last night ripping off pieces of toilet paper (mine is special- it has the Israeli flag printed on every piece) so that I wouldn’t have to work today.
Actually, Randy, I thought it would be more fun for readers to look up the swear words themselves so they could ROFL.
For instance, just copy-paste “mitromem mizdayen batahat ben zona” into a search and enjoy a good chuckle!
Or, just go to: Hebrew Swear Words at http://www.youswear.com/index.asp?language=Hebrew
And have a good laugh. if you have a sense of humour. You ought to try it, Randy!
So, if I understand you correctly, it requires a B.A. in Political Science (and a Minor in History) to be able to produce the two quality insults directed at me.
Since you now seem too embarrassed to explain their meaning, I will explain to anyone who is interested that you referred to me as a “gonorrhea dripping penis” and a “Gay ass fucker” ( sorry, Robert, if this contravenes your rules – I was just translating).
I think I have a good sense of humour, but since it obviously differs from yours, it might be a good idea to stay away from the swearing and stick with the subject.
If anyone else was ROFL at your jokes, I feel as sorry for them as I do for you.
Aw, now you ruined it! It’s more fun to look them up…
You know, talking with you is like talking to the Mad Hatter- after a while, I’m inclined to say, “screw” it and resort to humour, instead of logic, becauase logic doesn’t work with you. Neither does humour, gee, what’s left?
If I refuse to engage you any further, you will no doubt proclaim “victory” and come out beating your too-hairy chest- just like you did with my “95%” admission. “You admit I’m 5% right”, you brag. Whatever!
Stick to the subject? When you stop going back the (yawn) Germans, we can get back to the subject of the illegal country you call home.
And, yes, it does take a college degree to get my jokes- thanks for noticin’!
@Bibi
Regarding the first paragraph of your claim that I referred to “all” Germans, I thought it was clear from the context that I was referring, at that time, to the decision makers. That seemed to me to be self evident, but it appears that it was not,
Regarding the second paragraph I am still not certain how you equate “vast majority” with “all”‘. I don’t see the word “all” – do you?
In any event the argument about percentages and the relationship between active and passive support, misses my main point about the years immediately following the war and the struggle of numerous historians and others to try to break through the impenetrable smokescreen of German obfuscation.
Since you have rejected all my previously quoted sources as biased, what is your opinion of the work of Eric A. Johnson in his book “What we Knew” ?
This is a small review from Amazon:
From Publishers Weekly
The refrains in Germany for many years after WWII were “we didn’t know” about the Holocaust, and “if we had known and had tried to do something, we too would have been killed by the Nazis.” These claims have not stood up to historical scrutiny. Large numbers of ordinary Germans were involved in carrying out the mass murder of Jews, and knowledge of it was widespread among the population at home in Germany. Moreover, the Nazi elite ruled primarily by consensus, not terror; it was a popular dictatorship. Central Michigan University historian Johnson and German sociologist Reuband confirm these interpretations in their wide-ranging study based on hundreds of interviews and surveys they conducted with both Jewish and Christian Germans. Johnson (Nazi Terror) and Reuband don’t add much that is new to what we know about the Nazi dictatorship and the Holocaust, but the materials they have gathered are interesting. Roughly two-thirds of the book consists of transcripts of interviews with Jews who had a range of experiences (going into hiding, leaving Germany before Kristallnacht, suffering in the camps) and Germans (those who heard about the murder of Jews, those who didn’t, those who participated). The analysis in the book’s final third is sober and sobering. But it’s the gripping immediacy of the interviews, laced as they are with anger, guilt, sadness and, still among some Christian Germans, pride, that carries the book. (Feb.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
Q: What is my opinion of the work of Eric A. Johnson in his book “What we Knew” ?
A: Gee, I don’t have one, yet, because I’ve only barely heard of the book.
I didn’t know you could debate someone by just throwing some book written by “experts” out there, as if it’s existence alone were proof of something. I’m writing a book called ‘They Didn’t Know”- will promise to read it?
BUT now, because you asked, and because you found ONE BOOK that purports to prove what you think, and then cited ONE REVIEW that slobbered over it with praise and affirmation of the book’s premise…I don’t know…I guess I’ll have to 1) order the book 2) read it from cover to cover 3) check all its sources 4) research the authors and 5) look at other reviews, including reviews from historians- not some unnamed idiot at Publisher’s Weekly (which is owned by a Jew).
So, I’ll have to get back to you, I guess!
Second thought- I can answer you- I think the book is a work of Neo-Revisionist crap by two guys with degrees who weren’t born yet when WW II was fought. I think they are both ultra-Liberal, P.C., Jew-loving gentile academics who want to make a buck off the latest historical revisionist fad- this stuff about “they all knew”, bla bla bla. The authors obviously started with their foregone conclusion, and then proceeded to gather evidence to support it. This means they are not trustable.
I saw myself that 2/3 of the book is “eye-witness” accounts. Great- but that doesn’t make for accurate history. any historian will tell you that.
These are interviews with average Jews who left Germany- they left, so how do we believe them as a source for waht happened afterwards? Some interviews are with camp survivors- if they were in a camp, how much could they have observed? Not enough to make sweeping generalizations. At least 1/3 of the German interviewees say they DID NOT KNOW. Were they all lying?
I’ve been reading it a bit now, and it DOESN’T SAY what you, and some reviewers, imply. It is also a piece of crap- just because of the way the authors constantly CITE THEMSELVES AS SOURCEs- in the third person. They say, “In Eric Johnson’s opinion, the figure is much higher than that. That’s b.s., in historical lingo!
Eyewitness accounts by regular folks speak to individual experience- not good for general historical reference. Plus, they are way, way too biased usually.Actually, I looked at the Amazon REAL reviews- and they don’t say the same stuff- plus I went and read a bit of the book online- and I see multiple problems with the book right off the bat. Too many to list right now. Here’s some review snips:
“The authors insist that about one-third of the population became aware of the murder of Jews while it was taking place,”
Jews in Cologne experienced far less anti-Semitism than Berlin. Keep in mind that these were just the majority opinion, and that virtually every one of these statements was contradicted by one interviewee or another.
“Several Jews felt that the average German sincerely believed in Hitler’s anti-Semitic policies and knew everything.
“Most of the Germans claimed that there were rumors of such things, or perhaps heard of specific instances of killings, but did not believe that Jews were being systematically murdered.”
But I swear Randy, if you try to goad me into defending Nazis one more time, I’m gonna have to officially join them. Change the channel, Holocaust Boy.
Mott
Keep in mind though
Just because a neocon says something unflattering about Islam or middle eastern culture, doesn’t automatically render it false. A lot of people have fallen into that trap.
@GSG- Sorry, I don’t follow you. Who is the neocon you are referring to? Is it RandyBoy? I would call him an Isrealo-Fascist, not a neocon. Who else are you referencing?
FYI- Repeating myself here- I’m no friend of Muslims/Arabs/Palis in general- although I wouldn’t prejudge someone on a personal basis if they were one. I have no knee-jerk hatred for them, either. I haven’t known any personally- only Sihks and Persians, Pakis, who were all good friends and good people.
I admit that I don’t care for Islam as a religion- but I don’t like religions much period. I know that there are millions of decent Muslims, etc.
I just don’t buy into the following mantra, which is recited by many- gentiles, Zionists, Neocons,etc.:
Muslims/Arabs = BAD, and,
Jews/Isrealis hate Muslims/Arabs, so,
Jews/Israelis= GOOD, automatically. Nice try- it doesn’t work like that.
I know that’s not what you meant, GSG, but a lot of certain types of people try to pass this off as logic (let’s not mention RandyBoy).
“Muslims/Arabs = BAD, and,
Jews/Isrealis hate Muslims/Arabs, so,
Jews/Israelis= GOOD, automatically. Nice try- it doesn’t work like that.”
I’m no fan of neoconservatism and I’m tired of my country sacrificing its well being and good reputation for a foreign country that shows them no love in return. But I guess I’m one step ahead. I’ve been following the Palestinian solidarity movement for the past ten years and am very familiar with the attitude that surrounds it.
They say Zionists learned a lot from Nazis and I won’t dispute that, but it’s clear that the Palestinian Solidarity has taken a leaf out of Abe Foxman’s book, what Dr. Fagglestein calls the Holocaust Industry. They attempt to romanticize/deify Palestinian culture, seek to get compensation and persecuted/underprivileged minority status for western Arabs/Muslims (though they would otherwise have you believe they were a model minority and portray themselves vastly superior to ordinary Westerners) and dismiss any criticism of Arab/Muslim society as “Zionist Propoganda.” Obviously this movement has little legitimacy and is only starting to catch on but I’d like to warn you about it.
I told you earlier that I was equally disgusted with the fact that Muslims worldwide are also required to sacrifice themselves for the Palestinian cause, regardless of their orientation within the Muslim world. If it is true that Zionism and Holocaustianity have replaced traditional Judaism among secular Jews, it is also true that “the Palestinian cause” has played a major role in contemporary Islam. I find it nauseating that non Arab muslims, who are generally harshly discriminated in Arab countries, are expected to sacrifice themselves to the Palestinian cause. If the shoe were on the other foot and Palestine was an independent country, and Bangladesh was under brutal military occupation, do you think Palestinians would adopt “the Bangladeshi cause” as their own, and break their backs to help them. Not a chance in hell, baby.
“””I told you earlier that I was equally disgusted with the fact that Muslims worldwide are also required to sacrifice themselves for the Palestinian cause, regardless of their orientation within the Muslim world””
You keep repeating this over and over despite it being untrue. As far as Muslim states are concerned, I’ve already demonstrated that they merely pay lip service to the Pally cause since it costs them nothing to do so. The Kurdish issue on the other hand would require concessions to be made and neither Iran or Iraq would do it. I’ve also pointed out that from a geo-political pov it makes sense for Iran to support Hizbollah, and in order to do so, they in turn need to pay lip service to the Pally cause too. Muslim states have never sacrificed their self interests for the Pallys. In February 1971 Sadat proposed a secret peace deal with Israel which made no mention of the Palestinians at all. All the Egyptians wanted was the Sinai which was taken from them in 1967. Jesus Christ woman, how much more actual evidence do you need? The whole global United Ummah of Muhammad makes for a great Friday prayer sermon, but outside the Mosque, ethnicity > Islam all the way.
I see that you have taken my name in vain, again so I must comment on this ridiculous mantra.
I cannot speak for others but I don’t accept the formula you set out. I do not believe that all Muslims and Arabs are BAD and it is simply not true that Israelis, in general, hate Muslims and Arabs, in general.
What they, and all reasonable people everywhere, hate, are those Muslims and Arabs who commit murderous acts of terrorism against our civilian population – or any civilian population – in the name of Allah. And they are not too fond of those who support and encourage those acts.
Seems an eminently reasonable viewpoint to me.
Oh man, I can’t believe this Andyboy pissing contest is still going on!
BAG- I’m quitting. He tricked me into defending Nazis AGAIN. AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I guess I really am a Nazi! AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Feel free to quit anytime; but, just for the record and the sake of good order, I never ever called you a Nazi.I never even thought it.
And I was always talking about the German people as a whole , not simply the National Socialists.
I think that your, apparently, overwhelming desire to defend German honour and feigned ignorance was a little strident, but I see that is just your way.
Enjoy your retirement!
And you enjoy yours, Randy. Fuck off and die!
@ Bibi – your last remarks.
Charming and gracious to the end.
I understand now that there is a direct connection between a college education and a degree or two, and the use of gutter language.
You need to wash your mouth out with soap………..
You know whitey is in crisis when both the Jew and the Anti-Semite are assholes.
And you need to fuck off back to Jew-Land.
The non-facts that come out of you are way more obscene than any “dirty” words. You’re a dick- but nobody can call you one? Get real.
@Hacienda- That was pretty funny! However- Jews aren’t neccessarily “whites” (although they can opt in) and Randy ain’t “white”- he’s all Jew, all the time.
And remember, Hacienda- you’re a real asshole too, so watch it!
@Hacienda- Clarification: I’m not an anti-Termite, or whatever. If I was, I would not take offense, and I would not correct you. Calling me one of those is inaccurate- sorta like if I called you a “Chink”. The correct term for you, Hacienda, would be: “Ka-Chink”.
I wasn’t referring to the governments of those countries perse, and a few such as Kuwait have had covert relations with Israel. I’ve never been to a Muslim country so have limited knowledge about the political beliefs in those countries, but in my experience, the Palestinian Solidarity Movement is dominated by non Palestinians. South Asians and African American Muslims are the most supportive, followed by radical minority groups and SWPL whites. Arabs are involved, but to a much lesser extent. There are few Palestinians in my area, so I can’t fault them for not showing them gratitude, but this is reflected on a much larger scale.
At occupy Boston, there is a diverse body of causes that are represented which is good as it has attracted much support but tends to dilute the original intention. The Palestinian Solidarity cult tends to be very vocal and seize the spotlight to the point of (attempting) to make the Palestinian cause the central point drown out other voices. They have done this at global human rights conferences (Durban) and the other third world countries lap it right up. I don’t know how successful they will be, but it is clear that they are not merely interested in securing equal rights for the Palestinians, but turning them into super citizens and I’m not saying this because I love Israel, because they too are hypocrites. I hate them both.
Question: If it is really true that blood is thicker than water and Muslims don’t give a shit about Palestinians, then how come the Israeli alliance has hurt the US’s image in the middle east?
Average Muslims sympathize with the Pallys as long as their own interests are not compromised. What brings Muslims together on the Pally issue is Israel’s shocking brutality. Chinese Muslims aren’t treated particularly well either, however they clearly don’t live under the same conditions as the Pallys in the West Bank and Gaza. So most Muslims barely take any notice. Arab governments realize that promoting anti Israel sentiments takes a lot of heat of their own incompetent regimes. If the West homogenizes Muslims in the way you generally do, Muslims will eventually begin to place their religious identity before their ethnic ones. That’s when shit will really hit the fan.
“”Several Brits of Pakistani descent have perpetrated or attempted suicide bombings in Israel, without being promised anything in return for their families by your precious Palestinians.””
As appalling as their actions are, they died for what they believed in. It’s a hard concept for the Jewish mentality to grasp, fighting for what you believe in without expecting any worldly gain. Off topic, have you ever given any charity in your life?
If the West homogenizes Muslims in the way you generally do, Muslims will eventually begin to place their religious identity before their ethnic ones. That’s when shit will really hit the fan.
Excellent point. Could not have said it better, myself. I have been saying that for years. Treat Muslims as an “ethnic group,” and they will ultimately behave like one. That, unfortunately, is what has been taking place in the West.
Several Brits of Pakistani descent have perpetrated or attempted suicide bombings in Israel, without being promised anything in return for their families by your precious Palestinians.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/focus-i-can-understand-why-a-young-muslim-man-would-do-what-omar-is-meant-to-have-done-537964.html
I understand that first generation Middle Eastern immigrants to Europe considered their ethnic heritage to be their primary identity, and likewise with different hispanic immigrants in the US, many of whom had rivalries with other hispanic groups before immigrating.
I don’t know what happened that caused new generic identities to form. I can’t imagine that the prejudice against Muslims or hispanics were much worse than prejudice against earlier immigrants in those countries and the living conditions for immigrants in the ’50’s and ’60’s was much worse than for those of previous immigration eras. But I never heard of ethnic groups such as Irish, Italians, Portuguese and Slavs banding together and creating a generic Catholic ethnic identity.
I would argue that they kind of did, to an extent. Especially in the era between 1900 and 1940, and the face of rather extreme American anti-Catholicism. It is just that different Catholic groups came at different times, and in different waves, allowing one Catholic immigrant group to dominate at that time.
The Irish huddled around the Catholic Church in the 19th century, as it was the crux of their identity. Case in point, it was Irish immigrant soldiers in the U.S Army, who during the Mexican-American War, went over to the Mexican side, solely becuase of their perceived shared Catholic culture.
@Hacienda
I feel it unfair for you to tar the ever word creative Bibi and me, with the same brush.
Whatever happened to ” I might disagree with every word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.”
Are you not the land of the First Amendment?
andyboy,
I believe in overabundance to the point that material things seem like clutter and noise. Free speech, same thing, there should be so much of it that you can’t tell what should or shouldn’t be restricted. If I say you are an asshole, than you probably are, because I’m really smart and very wise.
To be fair Hacienda, Andy isn’t really malicious, he’s just a brainwashed dupe dishing out classical Zionist arguments that not even the most naive American journalist would buy anymore.
@ Dota
I agree. I sometimes can’t help but wonder if he’s a self-parody of a stereotypical professional Jew/hasbara agent, because he couldn’t be more of a purveyor of textbook Zionist propaganda if he tried.
@ BAG & Dota
I think there’s been enough name calling on this site to last for the next few months, at least.
Anyone care to address the moral issue I raised about releasing murderers?
@Bibi
I think you are aware that I already live in “Jew-land” as you so delicately call it – so – nowhere else to go.
And you do seem a little obsessed with the male organ and sexual intercourse. At least, that is the impression a casual observer might form from the times you invoke them in your cursing.
The depths to which you have dragged reasonable debate should be very disturbing to others on this forum. See my last post to Hacienda – it applies equally to you.
Randy/Douche Bag- You can always go drown in the Dead Sea.
You are a cunt, pussy, and a twat. What can you make of that, Mr. Curse Words!- My Word! Stop feining shock at cuss words- nobody’s buying it.
Your website has nudity all over it- so you are no prude, stop lying.
Your website also says you are into Gay Rights bigtime- so, you are admitting to being a homosexual. By definition then, aren’t you the one who obsessed with male parts? Just sayin’!
I am not shocked. I just wonder what it is about such language that turns you on.
Everyone is welcome to visit my website and judge for themselves the content.
Supporting Gay rights and freedom of expression are just two elements. Your distorted description is simply a continuation of your efforts to demonise me.
It won’t work.
P.S. @Robert – what is your interpretation of rule 3 of your comments policy?
Sorry Andyboy, that rule only applies to what we say about Robert (or Alpha Unit).
But we can be as rude towards you as we please! And believe me, you ask for it.
OK, I get the picture.
This is a forum in which ad hominem cursing is an accepted substitute for rational disagreement.
Seems that presenting arguments with which you and your colleagues disagree is, therefore, pointless.
You really feel that this form of insular thinking is good for vibrant discourse?
Well,. we are not wild about name-calling and all of that, but we can’t stop you if you want to do it.
Thing is, we want only very narrow grounds for banning commenters. If we ban commenters on too many grounds, people stop commenting, and that’s a real problem.
We ban way too many people as it is, but it pretty much has to be that way, unfortunately. But there’s no point in opening up the process even more and creating even more bans and thereby inhibiting commenters even further.
We had a discussion about this with the commenters a while back and we asked them whether we should have censorship of comments. It came up because White nationalist, racist and anti-Semitic commenters were causing a lot of problems on here, mostly by baiting Jews and Blacks and calling them racist epithets. The commenters said not to ban people for that. I decided to encourage Blacks and Jews to just come to the site and defend themselves against the racists.
The ban on certain rightwing comments came later. This is a Leftist site. However, almost all of the commenters were rightwingers at one point. It become very annoying, and we had to spend a lot of time taking apart crap rightwing arguments, and it was really screwing up the site. I put that in myself, and a lot of commenters don’t like it.
That only applies to US politics, and you are not running afoul of that rule at all.
I really enjoy your stay here on this site because commenters get exposed to the Israeli POV, in this case the rightwing Israeli POV. I am mostly choosing not to take you on here; instead I am letting my commenters do that if they wish. If anyone wants to wade in and defend you, that’s just fine too.
Of course I disagree with the rightwing Israeli POV, but looking over your site, I find that a lot of your comments about your Arab and Muslim opponents are unfortunately correct. I am as opposed to Palestinian nationalism as I am to Israeli nationalism, and I really worry about the ability of the Palestinians to live in peace with Israelis in a single state.
That stuff only applies to Alpha and me. You guys get to call each other names all you want to.
Unfortunately.
I am sure everyone is aware that the most momentous news in Israel this week is the pending release of Gilad Shalit in exchange for 1027 Palestinian prisoners.
If it is possible, on this forum, to put aside anti -Israel prejudice, I would be interested to hear reaction to the concept of freeing those convicted of murdering civilians in cold blood. And we are talking about hundreds of civilians and thousands more maimed for life.
The issue I would like to address is the irony that those who committed these crimes under the blanket of political justification are to be freed. Private citizens, who did not commit mass murder, will not have the same reprieve of their sentences.
So, membership of a terrorist organisation becomes the “get out of jail free” card. How ironic.
The real victims here are the bereaved families who lost loved ones, and those yet to become bereaved. Historically the recidivism rates are very high. Following the last massive prisoner exchange, around 200 civilians were murdered by some of those released.
So, it is absolutely certain that many more will die in the future as a direct consequence of this exchange.
Is everyone comfortable with that?
Personally, I could care less either way. It would nice to go for one single day, without having to read about either the Israelis or Palestinians in the news, and all of their little problems. It is actually endless and boring, and really should be of little significance to the rest of the world.
What happens in this part of the world would be of little significance were it not for three factors:
Oil
Oil
Oil
Were it not for this black gold,the Arabs would be even closer to the Middle Ages than they are, and the world would not care less about them.
Of course, the Palestinians don’t have it directly. But those that support and sponsor their terrorism do have it, and use that fact as a weapon with which to threaten the rest of the world when it suits them.
But I do agree that the media do seem overly obsessed with what takes place in our neck of the woods. We could do with having less of a spotlight on every little issue.
That doesn’t even make sense. The vast majority of Arabs live in nation states without oil, and your view still ignores the fact that the long term Arab-Israeli conflict has had nothing to do with it.
In fact, if U.S interests in the “Middle East” were governed exclusively by it’s interests in securing the supply of oil, it’s behavior these last 40 years or so in the region would be very different.
Now, I am curious…Who exactly do you see as the Palestinians “Arab” supporters. I’ll give you a hint. How you answer this question, will pretty telegraph to everybody here wither you are a total asshole or not.
“Personally, I could care less either way. It would nice to go for one single day, without having to read about either the Israelis or Palestinians in the news, and all of their little problems. It is actually endless and boring, and really should be of little significance to the rest of the world.”
Co-sign.
I would be happy if the news media only reported on Jews only a few times per year. Arabs are more entertaining. It’s fun to watch them make asses of themselves.
Cyrus
The capture of to reserve soldiers Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser led to tthe 2006 war with Lebanon.
Jews get more attention than they deserve.
Ah, my bad. That was by Hezbollah, of course. Did they ever swap them for prisoners with the Israelis?
I am pretty familiar with Hezbollah, from a military standpoint at least. Know next to nothing of Hamas, and don’t care to. They come across as a bunch of stereotypical Arab posers, but that’s just me. 🙂
Shalit was the kid who’s capture led to the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war, wasn’t he? Funny how “Palestinian” Hamas captures him, and Hezbollah and the Lebanese end up on the receiving end of Israeli firepower.
Since both Hamas and Hezbbollah are committed to Israel’s destruction, and are both financed and supported by Iran and Syria, Israel is entitled to regard them both as an existential threat and deal with them accordingly.
Yup. That’s the kind of thinking that’ll get you where you wanna go. Really. I mean it.
Dear Lady,
Jews only get the attention that the world decides to give them.
Much of the time we could live without it.
Quite the contrary. Jews LOVE to be the center of attention. If you fail to mention them, you’re no better than hitler.
@Gay State Girl
“Quite the contrary. Jews LOVE to be the center of attention. If you fail to mention them, you’re no better than hitler.”
Apart from Jewish control of the major power centres and institutions in the world today like the collapsing banking system, Jewish leadership roles in subversive political and social movements like Communism, abortion, open borders immigration, etc, organised crime, Jewish mass murderers both capitalist and communist, pro war/globalism think tanks and policy initiatives, etc.
That goes against orthodoxy that historically Jews were a defenceless, persecuted minority.
Counter-currents website recently did a review of From Krakow to Krypton: Jews and Comic Books by Arie Kaplan and previous articles where the Jewish theme of Jewish persecution and pro-minority stance against the ruling WASP society (who were assholes anyway so I don’t really care) which they already had huge representation in influencing the development of the comic book genre.
http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/10/from-krakow-to-krypton-jews-and-comic-books/#more-18664
The same themes were expressed in the early Hollywood films in the Jewish documentary Hollywoodism: Jews, movies and the American dream.
Although not mentioned in the documentary I would add that it is rumoured that Leon Trotsky was said to have worked at Vitagraph movie studio in New York as an extra while in exile after his migration to the US.
Jeez. I just intended that remark in jest, to bring a bit of humor to the forum. Jews love to be the center of attention. If you neglect to mention them, you might as well be a viscious antisemite. You didn’t have to go off on a tangent like that.
I heard (from Joanna Francis), that Jews supported the legalization of abortion because they wanted to kill Christian babies:) I already said I want to start a slew of abortion clinics in Gaza (which has the highest birth rate in the world) and was met with great hostility from the Palestinian Solidarity Movement (many of whom were left wingers.)
LOL, Johnny Boy, you really are a piece of work.
GSG made that remark just for the sake of humor, and you have to write a miniature essay.
@Gay State Girl
It is interesting in the entertainment industry Muslims are never depicted as villains. The only example I can think of is True Lies but that was a Hollywood remake of the French original.
I have an idea for a new Marvel villain Captain America can fight Jihad Joe. 😀
”I heard (from Joanna Francis), that Jews supported the legalization of abortion because they wanted to kill Christian babies:) I already said I want to start a slew of abortion clinics in Gaza (which has the highest birth rate in the world) and was met with great hostility from the Palestinian Solidarity Movement (many of whom were left wingers.)”
The problem for Israel is that they opened up abortion clinics in Tel Aviv that only aided its demographic decline in comparison to the Palestinians who have to resort to more draconian methods of population control like collapsing the economy and restricting water and power supplies.
Maybe Jews should start marrying their cousins like the rest of the Mid East. 😀
I don’t mind John so much. He provides comic relief in his own unique way to an otherwise tense forum.
That’s interesting. Arabs claim to be the most widely discriminated and victimized group in hollywood. Of course I don’t buy it. No one gets hit harder than rural white trailer trash and jewish women.
@Bay Area Guy
White America is pretty racist so the Jews did insert a morale code as best they could into US society.
There are three groups Hollywood hates:
1) Germans
2) Arabs/other Middle Easterners
3) Rural whites, particularly religious ones.
I forgot about Germans.
I don’t think Hollywood hates Arabs. I have never seen any anti arab sentiment that is supposedly so prevelent. Arabs are simply upset that there aren’t many movies about arabs. Like Jews, they like to see themselves as central to humanity. Ask Cyrus.
Jewish Hollywood producers/directors/writers shit on their own women more than anyone else.
“”I don’t think Hollywood hates Arabs. I have never seen any anti arab sentiment that is supposedly so prevelent. “”
You must be fairly disconnected from reality then. Remember true lies? Operation Condor? Executive decision? Many many others come to mind.
“”Quite the contrary. Jews LOVE to be the center of attention. If you fail to mention them, you’re no better than hitler.””
“”Jews LOVE to be the center of attention.
LOL, couldn’t agree more. “”
Not really. You do have certain vocal Jews who mainly distract the masses such as Foxman et all. You generally never however hear a peep from the Rothschilds or all the Kohns and Cohens who infest the Federal Reserve.
Germans are only portrayed as villains when it’s the Nazis with the exception of Die Hard.
Without a doubt the 2 most demonised groups in Hollywood are:
1) Serbs
2) Chinese
3) Russian
@Bay Area Guy
1) Germans Only with the Nazis
2) Arabs/other Middle Easterners Yeah right! What movies do you watch BAG?
3) Rural whites, particularly religious ones I would say Southern Americans. Must be a Leo Frank thing. I don’t see many Amish Hollywood villains.
@Dota
”You must be fairly disconnected from reality then. Remember true lies? Operation Condor? Executive decision? Many many others come to mind”
There is that Muslim persecution syndrome again.
True Lies was an original French movie
Operation Condor is a Hong Kong movie production.
Executive decision a rare exception where the terrorists are Muslims is actually interesting as the original 9/11 plot minus the nerve gas attack in the film was to hijack a commercial plane and demand the release of Islamist from US prisons.
“Terrorists have hijacked a Boeing 747 en route from Athens to Washington, D.C., demanding in exchange for the hostages the release of terrorist El Sayed Jaffa, who had been recently captured and taken into United States custody.
It is discovered that the terrorists are actually planning an attack on Washington, D.C., placing a bomb on the airplane that will release a large amount of nerve gas on detonation.”
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a96hijackerschechnya#a96hijackerschechnya
What are the many others that you can cite as an example?
@Gay State Girl
“Jewish Hollywood producers/directors/writers shit on their own women more than anyone else.”
What movies are you thinking of that you could cite as an example?
@ Johnny Boy
1) Germans Only with the Nazis
Yeah, except Germans ARE only Nazis in Hollywood movies. Well, that and the occasional terrorist, like in Die Hard 1 and 3.
2) Arabs/other Middle Easterners Yeah right! What movies do you watch BAG?
Let’s see, True Lies, Not Without My Daughter, Father of the Bride 2, etc.
3) Rural whites, particularly religious ones I would say Southern Americans
Okay, I’ll definitely give you that one. White Southerners definitely get a bad rap from Hollywood.
But I’d say religious whites do. Think of “Doubt.”
@Bay Area Guy
Yeah, except Germans ARE only Nazis in Hollywood movies. Well, that and the occasional terrorist, like in Die Hard 1 and 3.
There has been Hollywood movies set in Germany like Unknown were Germans are not Nazis it is only WW2 era films that Germans are Nazis because they make the best villains.
Die Hard is the only film with German terrorists which were East German terrorists and in DH 1 and 3 the terrorists are blood relatives.
Let’s see, True Lies, Not Without My Daughter, Father of the Bride 2, etc.
I have already gone over True Lies twice which was a Hollywood remake of a French movie.
Not Without My Daughter a forgettable 91 movie was based on an autobiography of a real story and is was a critique of the Iranian regime not Muslims.
Father of the Bride 2 lol! 😀 you are really scraping the barrel.
GSG wrote: Arabs are simply upset that there aren’t many movies about arabs. Like Jews, they like to see themselves as central to humanity. Ask Cyrus.
More proof Jews and Arabs are cousins…
Well, I have my own take on it. In Hollywood, Arabs themselves has never been specifically excluded, and there have been a rather large number of Arabs of Lebanese, Syrian and even Egyptian backgrounds that have “made it” over the last century. Almost all Christian, but that could be argued as only loosely relevant.
That being said, having a “Middle Eastern” look, especially if you are male, pretty much screws you into specific type-caste roles, regardless of what your background really is. One need only to read over casting calls to see what I mean. This has ironically screwed South Asians more than anyone else, since they tend to have those very features that most Americans incorrectly associate with “Middle Easterners.” Women are not effected by this, like men are. If anything, they get the advantage of being labeled “exotic,” especially if they are pretty.
That is all changing now, slowly. With everything from TV shows like Monk, to Indian characters playing doctors, etc.
Recently, a buddy of mine who is a “Persian” of the darker variety, actually lost out on a part, because he was told he didn’t look “Jewish” enough. Any LA native will find this to be rather amusing, as with the huge number of Persian Jews and Israelis running around the West side…Of which he would fit right in.
@ GSG
Jews LOVE to be the center of attention.
LOL, couldn’t agree more.
I mean, who’s a better example of this phenomenon than Andyboy? He knows that he’s facing a completely hostile audience, and still he continues to play the role of fighting Zionist.
And just look at the attention he’s received? This pissing contest has been going on for weeks now.
I can also speak from personal experience when I say that Jews themselves are the ones who always bring up Jewish issues, at times in arrogant ways.
(I recall speaking with Jews who have openly bragged about Jewish intelligence and Jewish success)
Jews talk about fighting antisemitism, so you’d think they’d want to keep a low profile. But they have to inject a jewish angle into everything, even if they have to dig a wall to China, they’llgo to great lengths to uncover a Jewish connection. I wish Jews would keep a low profile. I would be happy if I never had to hear about Israel in tthe news, and content to hear about Jews only a few times per year.
I am pretty bored about constantly hearing about the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
If Americans are complaining about the annual aid given to Israel then wait till Palestine becomes a recognised and inevitable failed state just like every other Muslim country the US has supported since the Afghan war and the billions of dollars the US will have to spend to prop it up to merely keep it functional.
What happens when Eurasian oil and gas reserves are fully developed and demand and reserves run out in the Mid East then what will happen in the Mid East?
What happens when Eurasian oil and gas reserves are fully developed and demand and reserves run out in the Mid East then what will happen in the Mid East?
I can’t wait.
@Gay State Girl
I can’t wait.
Yes but the international Jewry and Israel are on the side of the Pan-Turkish Islamists.
http://www.realzionistnews.com/?p=662
Simple. Those Arab countries with oil, become more like those currently without. In fact, I would argue that a large portion of the population of the various GCC countries would be forced to migrate. Their current infrastructure and demands on the environment are simply unstable without a huge injection of money. To my understanding, their attempts at rapid industrialization have largely failed, at least to the extent that it could ever breakeven with oil export revenue.
Iran on the other hand, the non-Arab nation in the so-called “Middle East” with huge oil and natural gas exports, would be forced to politically change course in it’s international relations. I.E, oil has allowed the theocracy to act in a manor where it finds sanctions irrelevant for the most part, because oil can account for 80% of export revenue, thus sustaining the government. This has both fueled and retarded in domestic development at the same time. It has allowed Iran to industrialize in many ways, to produce that which it’s society and living standards need, while at the same time doing so in a manor that would not be competitive with foreign competition to an extent. In fact, the current system has thrived off of the deliberate lack or allowance of foreign competition.
Without oil, Iran would be forced to behave more like Turkey, and less like the former Soviet Union. In such a scenario, I wouldn’t be shocked to see Iranian brands of products being sold in the USA. Everything from swamp-coolers to the occasional automobile. Sounds like a pipe-dream, but really is just a result of geo-politics.
Thanks for informing me that I was facing a hostile audience, I wasn’t really aware of that.
I think this Bibi guy has run out of piss for the moment so this contest is over.
And, FYI, I am not playing any role here. I like the title “fighting Zionist”. has a nice ring to it.
Now, putting aside the bragging aspect, do you have any explanation for Jewish success? It seems to me that Jewish success is not really conducive to a better opinion of Jews.
And, you know, we’re not notably successful at the Olympic Games, if that gives you some comfort.
Now, putting aside the bragging aspect, do you have any explanation for Jewish success?
High IQ, a very competitive and at times aggressive culture, as well as an intellectual culture that fosters debate and critical thinking. Of course, high ethnocentrism and Jewish collectivist solidarity also helps.
For all the crap I may give Jews, I have to give credit where it is due. They sure know how to get shit done.
And, you know, we’re not notably successful at the Olympic Games
Or any other endeavor that requires physical exertion.
“Or any other endeavor that requires physical exertion.”
It’s rumoured that Jews are not that bad in bed. Well, the men, anyway.
the “JAP’S” have a different reputation.
Possibly there are some here with personal experiences that could enlighten us.
Jewish men are the most arrogant, self centered pricks. They are responsible for spreading the JAP stereotype as well as the bitter old hag and the dyke-like feminist stereotypes. They say we don’t shave our legs, that we are loud mouthed. Jewish comedians always take great pleasure in mocking their female relatives and attributing their behavior to all Jewish females. I may have said bad things about shiksas in the past, but I need a Jewish man like a fish needs a bicycle.
Funny thing is that Kevin MacDonald and other WN writers and thinkers want to emulate Jewish success and group cohesion which they also cite other ethnic and religious groups as an example yet at the same time criticizing Jews for forming strategic alliances with other ethnic groups though only highlighting non-white cooperation like the Jewish-black alliance that split during the 70’s and Jewish organisations connections to Mexican groups which is limited to immigration laws supporting Mexican refugees fleeing the US backed genocide in their home country.
Themes of WN are:
1) Persecution syndrome where they falsely claim through non white immigration (which is only in the US) that white people are being genocide.
2) That all other groups especially Jews have an ethnic cohesion and group strategy while the native white population are to individualistic
3) They must form a transnational ethnic white identity which some go as far as suggesting restoring pre-Christian paganism which they see as being egalitarian despite the fact that Christian communities in the US and more Christian orientated countries like Poland tend to be almost 100% white.
In regards to Paganism, at least he is consistent. Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion.
“It’s rumoured that Jews are not that bad in bed. Well, the men, anyway.”
Translation. They have $$.
“I may have said bad things about shiksas in the past, but I need a Jewish man like a fish needs a bicycle.”
Nice analogy. But you can’t get over your own instinct to mark Jewish men as your own from Asian women. Why is that?
You can have all the Jewish dick you want.
“You can have all the Jewish dick you want.”
You know I’m from a generation that regarded gay humor with real disgust. I only play at being hip with that shit. But I asked an honest question. If you don’t want to answer, sss’alllright.
Hacienda
I look at a Jewish boy as if he were my little brother. I don’t want to marry him, but I don’t want to see him exploited by a gold digging shiksa cunt. Does that answer your question?
I don’t think Jewish men are mature enough to make their own decisions regarding marriage.
Hacienda
If anything, we should be allies. I have often heard Asian men express frustration about the fact that Asian prefer to marry whites.
LadyBoy Randy- I’m only out of piss for the moment, because I just got done pissing all over an Israeli flag and pictures of you from your childhood, which I downloaded off of your website. I had set them both on fire, but then realised it was not an authorised trash burning day, so I had to put it out somehow.
I see in my absence you have managed to elevate the subject to “Why are Jew dudes such studs in bed?”. You really are are an arrogant , self-centred prick. I see you single out Jewish men only, because you are a mitromem mizdayen batahat who o’chel batachat, so you wouldn’t know about women.
The only thing you are successful at is being very irritating, in addition to a laughable parody of an ethnocentric Jew/Zionist. Oh, and that effete, precious-sounding British English is not charming- it’s slimy and grating.
How about this for a topic – Why are some Jews like you such assholes? Discuss!
“LadyBoy Randy- I’m only out of piss for the moment, because I just got done pissing all over an Israeli flag and pictures of you from your childhood”
LOL
Looks like I’ll have to change my views on re-incarnation. I didn’t think that it could happen with historical reversal in time- but there you go.
Actually I was thinking of asking Robert if he would be interested in opening a section of the blog as a kind of “kiddies corner”.
I thought you might feel more comfortable posting your infantile attempts at humour amongst those of a similar mental and intellectual level.
I can understand why you find my English language and values so grating. After all, they embody values like dignity, class, and self respect. Values with which you cannot claim to have even a passing acquaintance.
And, as for your proposed topic, it would appear from this and previous posts, that you have a far closer relationship to, and obsession with, assholes than I do.
The pity is that the tone of the site really improved in your absence. It would be a shame to drag it down to your level again.
@ David Ben Carrion
LOL
Give it up, Andyboy.
As Deputy Prime Minister of Israel, I order you to end your hasbara campaign!
Arabs so tend to seek out discrimination and are over sensitive. They called “In the Army Now” ‘racist’ because it shows the Libyans in traditional bedouin garb and because the Hickass sargeant urges his soldiers to “blow the hell out of them.” If anything it reflects more poorly on rednecks than on Arabs.
@ GSG
You really have a problem with critical thinking. Hollywood pokes fun at rednecks and religious Christians; however Arabs and Muslims are portrayed as being genuinely malicious and evil. They want to harm the US and genuinely harm the American public. I don’t mind family guy making fun Arabs and Muslims because its damn funny and Seth is at least consistent. Hollywood is something else. If your mind is unable to grade stereotypes or grasp the concept of doing so, then this debate is truly pointless.
@ Johnny boy
I haven’t seent he French version of true lies. Was the plot based in the US too?
@Dota
I haven’t seen the French version of true lies. Was the plot based in the US too?
No I think it was set in France other than that I think it is a direct remake.
There are some terrorist movies about Arabs but Arab Americans are severely over sensitive. They referred to Aladdin as “Anti Arab.”
I am a critical thinker. Most people would just cut and paste what they saw on a website to support their views. I go to enemy territory and analyze them.
whats the difference between ‘some’ and ‘many’ in your view?
And parts of Aladdin were anti Arab. You remember the opening theme? If you actually think that’s good harmless fun for kids then there’s not much else to be said. And I’m glad that Arabs are over sensitive. Wouldn’t want them to turn into whitey whose become so used to being fucked up the ass by the tribe that he’s desensitized to it. (sorry BAG, i wish more whites were like you, but i had to make this point)
“”I am a critical thinker””
Err no. You elevate banality to an art form.
“”Most people would just cut and paste what they saw on a website to support their views. “”
Even that would be a step up for you.
Their “anti arab” claims about Aladdin were pretty petty at best. One argument against it was that the two heros (Aladdin and Jasmine) had “buttercream” features aside from their dark skin and the villains (Jafar and Gazeem) have long noses. But if you watch Al Jazeera, you’ll see plenty of female news anchors with traditional European features.
Arabs are every bit as arrogant, chauvinistic, and over sensitive as the tribe. They would have an easier if they kept a low profile but they let you know they’re Arabs. I met a (half Lebanese) guy, who was lily white and had an Italian name and was always claiming that he was the victim of “anti arabism.” I told him that he could easily conceal it simply by not telling people. I reasoned that I could understand not wanting to hide it, but the average person doesn’t need to know. I don’t talk about Jewish culture to every person I meet. He was outraged.
You don’t have to insult someone simply because they disagree with you. That reflects more poorly on you than it does on me.
I already said that the creation of Israel on anoher’s land was an injustice to the Palestinians, though I will never embrace Palestinian nationalism or bring myself to love them. I will not fawn over Arabs or parrot their arguments; there are millions of naive, starry eyed idealistic morons doing just that. They don’t need a realist like me. I am more concerned with addressing dual loyalty among American Jews, and relieving Germans of Holocaust guilt.
@Gay State Girl
Most of the controversy alleged against Disney cartoons is that they insert hidden subliminal sex images in their films although they end up just being things misinterpreted.
Arabs are every bit as arrogant, chauvinistic, and over sensitive as the tribe.
Twin brothers, separate mothers. 😉
Actually it might have some to do with migration from the Caucasus region that seem to be extremely tribal and ethno-centric with a mass migration of Caucasus Muslims in the 19th Century and after WW2 to the Mid East and Jewish migration from the Caucasus to the Pale of Settlement under Catherine the Great then during the Czarist period mass immigration to the US under the Czar in the early 20th Century and Caucasian Jews migrating to Israel after the collapse of the USSR and various conflicts in the region.
Correction “something” instead of “some”.
@ GSG
“I already said that the creation of Israel on anoher’s land was an injustice to the Palestinians, though I will never embrace Palestinian nationalism or bring myself to love them.”
Noted. However we’re talking about anti Arab sentiment in Hollywood, what does the Arab Israeli conflict have to do with this right now? (it does indirectly, but has no bearing on the immediate discussion)
“One argument against it was that the two heros (Aladdin and Jasmine) had “buttercream” features aside from their dark skin and the villains (Jafar and Gazeem) have long noses. “”
The protagonists have White features whereas the antagonists appear stereotypically Arab. Yeah, nothing wrong with this, merely a coincidence.
“”Arabs are every bit as arrogant, chauvinistic, and over sensitive as the tribe. They would have an easier if they kept a low profile but they let you know they’re Arabs””
Khaleeji Arabs perhaps, but not the Shami ones. They have become reactionary because their identity is constantly attacked. These aren’t your harmless funny stereotypes like family guy, but malicious and hateful defamation. Germans are given a similar treatment. When I hear the word Germany, the first thing that comes to my mind is Johann Strauss (technically Austrian I know), to the average white person, it’s Nazi Germany. I’ve tried this with many white friends so dont bother arguing about it. There was a similar vicious anti German smear campaign run by the Jews around the time of ww1.
@ Dota
Yeah, it is kind of pathetic how blind the white masses are to the Jewish Question.
Even for those who occasionally make stereotypical remarks about Jews, it typically revolves around tired, rehashed big nose and money grubber stereotypes.
They know little about the actual role the organized Jewish community has played in attacking white America.
When I hear the word Germany, the first thing that comes to my mind is Johann Strauss (technically Austrian I know), to the average white person, it’s Nazi Germany. I’ve tried this with many white friends so dont bother arguing about it.
Oh believe me, Dota, I certainly know this to be true. Unfortunately, I admit, I too used to be one of those white people who thought German = Nazis.
I look back on those days with amused shame.
Oh believe me, Dota, I certainly know this to be true. Unfortunately, I admit, I too used to be one of those white people who thought German = Nazis.
I look back on those days with amused shame.
Most Germans are Nazis. It’s true. I am 3/8 German myself, and of course I am a Nazi, and even those with German blood are still Nazis.
SEIG HEIL MOTHERFUCKER!
@Robert Lindsay
Most Germans are Nazis. It’s true. I am 3/8 German myself, and of course I am a Nazi, and even those with German blood are still Nazis.
SEIG HEIL MOTHERFUCKER!
Would explain your support for the anti-Christ alliance of Turkish separatist state union.
http://stosstruppen39-45.tripod.com/id10.html
John
What do you make of the claim (by Reverand Jeremiah Wright among others) that AIDS was man made? It seems that there is legitimate evidence to back that up.
“I need a Jewish man like a fish needs a bicycle”
Given your obvious unfortunate past experiences explains your hostilty to some degree.
But , I think your generalisations are a bit sweeping. Are ALL non- Jews the same as each other? All Blacks, or any racial or religious group?
After all, you never met me, and I’m charming.
“It’s rumoured that Jews are not that bad in bed. Well, the men, anyway.”
Translation. They have $$.
Dear Lady
I hadn’t realised that your hatred was that deeply ingrained. You must have made some pretty bad choices.
That remark was not directed at Jewish men, but at the shiksas who love them.
Do the shiksas actually LOVE them?
Or are you saying that shiksas only sleep with Jews for money?
And JAP’s don”t?
This may come as a surprise to you, but not ALL Jews actually have money.
So how do they get laid?
True. Jewish women can be materialistic and judgemental as hell. But when a JAPs seeks out Jewish men, she does so for tribal reasons. When a shiksa says she loves Jewish men, it’s always for financial reasons.
A Jewish man might not be rich, but shiksas always assume that he can become rich or has good connections.
Really? You mean all those shiksas were lying to me over the years? I’m mortified
You sacrifice yourself to protect Israel and defend the indefensible, but you still won’t give a Jewish woman the time of day? A typical Jewish man.
I guess I’m biased. All of my male relatives who married non Jewish women ended up being screwed. I’ve heard young women talking about finding Jewish sugar daddies or young Jewish boys so they can leech off their trust funds (not those exact words.) My mother also taught me that shiksas who sought out Jewish men do so for financial reasons.
My dear lady
You totally misjudge me and I’m sorry for giving the wrong impression.
Whilst it is true that ladies, not of the Jewish persuasion, have occupied some important times in my life, I only ever married Jews. And each of my children has a Jewish mother. It’s just that they each have a different one.
I can see how the experience of your family and your mother’s attitude has affected your judgment of this subject and has caused this bias. I guess that suggesting that not all people are the same, will fall on deaf ears.
I don’t regard putting forward an alternative viewpoint about Israel as a sacrifice. On the contrary; on this forum it’s a challenge. And I defend the defensible. Those presenting the opposite view are taking care of the indefensible.
@Gay State Girl
“You don’t have to insult someone simply because they disagree with you. That reflects more poorly on you than it does on me.
Couldn’t have put that better myself!
Does it also apply to people who insult me?
@ GSG
“the creation of Israel on anoher’s land was an injustice to the Palestinians”
( unquote)
But when Israel was established the only “Palestinians” were Jews. The invention of a Palestinian identity for Arabs was created decades later.
I was also interested to notice your reference to Germans and the Holocaust. How do you feel today’s Germans should relate to their history?
And how should they have related to in the decade after the war?
Regarding dual loyalty; do you assert that is an exclusive domain of Jews? Do not other ethnic groups give support to their cultural origins even after taking the oath of allegiance?
Well, after High School, I joined the U.S Army. Other classmates joined other branches of the U.S military. Some of the Jewish guys joined the Israeli Defense Forces. I asked them, why don’t you serve your country? They said they are!
FTR I am very uncomfortable with the idea of diaspora Jews serving in the IDF and then returning to their home countries rather than staying in Israel. I have tried to address the issue of dual loyalty rather than the Palestinian cause with them because that will go nowhere.
Two of my cousins are currently serving in the US air force and I know about ten others who are serving in the US military.
I got a second cousin serving in the IDF, so there!
@GSG
“LadyBoy Randy- I’m only out of piss for the moment, because I just got done pissing all over an Israeli flag and pictures of you from your childhood”
LOL
My Dear Lady,
Aren’t you just a tad ashamed of your “LOL” after your “insult” post?
@Dota
“There was a similar vicious anti German smear campaign run by the Jews around the time of ww1.
Were you aware that over 100,000 Jews served in the German army in WW1, and that over 10,000 of them died for the Fatherland?
Which is only .008- eight-tenths of one percent of the 13 million in the German Army at the time. And they had no choice- they were drafted. None of which has anything to do with Dota’s point.
Why don’t you address the point instead of coming up with nonsensical red herrings? Obey the rules of logical debate.
@ Ben Carrion
Thank you!
By the way, which Israeli leader are you going to make fun of next?
I, following your example, briefly changed my name to Avigwhore Dweeberman.
We’ll keep our options open. One problem: every time I pronounce a Hebrew name, I wind up hocking a big loogie (from the deep back of the throat) on the person sitting three feet across from me… Alas, which makes be beg leave of my station and seek the pardon of others…whilst I must then must thus inquire of our Jewish colleague Randy: to what gives such remedy the aforementiontioned ejaculatory mucosal affliction?
One problem: every time I pronounce a Hebrew name, I wind up hocking a big loogie (from the deep back of the throat) on the person sitting three feet across from me… Alas, which makes be beg leave of my station and seek the pardon of others…whilst I must then must thus inquire of our Jewish colleague Randy: to what gives such remedy the aforementioned ejaculatory mucosal affliction?
Only cure is to move to Israel.They are a dirty, loathsome, rat-like, Marxist, professorial, media-controlling people who spit on each other all the time habitually as they converse. They have the Dead Sea on their faces most of the time when they are just trying to have a pleasant conversation.
“Professorial” is a very low blow, even for them. I can’t believe you stooped so…
I see old habits die hard.
The Jewish population of Germany in 1914 was around half a million. So the proportion of Jews that served in the army was exactly the same as non Jews in respect of population size.
Seems logical to me, but you, I understand choose to operate under different rules and continue to obfuscate the truth.
None of which has anything to do with charge: whether or not
‘There was a similar vicious anti German smear campaign run by the Jews around the time of ww 1″
I believe that refers to the Baby-Skewering Hun propaganda campaign in the U.S. and U.K.
German Jews (those who were not drafted) were accused of undermining the war effort in Germany during WW1, also.
The accusation has also been leveled that Jewish financing of Britain helped defeat Germany in WW1, leading to the Balfour Declaration as a “payback”, and also contributing to anti-Jewish sentiment in Germany leading up to WW2.
Which has nothing to do with how many Jews were drafted into the German Army in WW1.
Actually it might have some to do with migration from the Caucasus region that seem to be extremely tribal and ethno-centric with a mass migration of Caucasus Muslims in the 19th Century and after WW2 to the Mid East and Jewish migration from the Caucasus to the Pale of Settlement under Catherine the Great then during the Czarist period mass immigration to the US under the Czar in the early 20th Century and Caucasian Jews migrating to Israel after the collapse of the USSR and various conflicts in the region.
John, they’re all fucking Chechens.
Jews are Chechens.
Arabs are Chechens.
Muslims are Chechens.
Chechens are Chechens.
The Caucasus is all Chechens.
Fuck em all, I say. Fuck the Chechens! Fuck the quasi-Chechens! Fuck the pseudo-Chechens! Fuck the Arabo-Chechens! Fuck the Judeo-Chechens!
Can I be an Aryan Chechen please? 😀
I’m not convinced that most Chechens, are indeed Chechens…Ossetians in drag, maybe?
Are you a Chechen? You sound like a Chechen to me?
ARE YOU A CRYPTO-CHECHEN????
I only go “Chechen” for pay…
Dota that’s just being petty. for all the alleged discrimination against them (real or not), Arabs still do a disproportionate amount of complaining, which is somewhat hypocritical on their part because the Arab world is hardly the most tolerant place in the world and many other groups such as South Asians, Central Asians, and African Muslims, who are harshly discriminated in the Arab world, are also on the receiving end of post 9/11 backlash. And while American Arab Anti Discrimination Committee has paid lip service to them, they have not done much to help them and deny any form of racism.
Is Al Jazeera also “anti Arab” because it hires Arab women with western features rather than stereotypical Arab features as its anchor women?
There is a difference between discrimination and defamation/hate mongering. Figure it out and then come back.
I’ve said before that I am appalled by the neo conservative movement and its efforts to drag us into unnecessary wars and its protrayal of Islam as the dark force, or ultimate evil. But calling Aladdin “anti arab” is a bit o a stretch. I don’t think any kid emerged from that movie with a newfound desire to kill Arabs. There are legitimate examples of anti arabism in Hollywood, particularly in political films, but much of their arguments are petty. Arabs are pretty petty. They complain about Western anti arabism, even among the PSM and anti war activists. I understand that many of the feminist and homosexual rights groups as well as Kurdish Solidarity and Save Darfur campaigns are a front for imperialism in the region, and would never align myself with a feminist group in the middle east (primarily because I don’t care about arab women. 🙂 but that doesn’t mean such problems don’t occur
@Gay State Girl
There are legitimate examples of anti arabism in Hollywood, particularly in political films, but much of their arguments are petty.
Are you kidding out of all the groups Arabs/Muslims are hardly tou other thhan that one special group because they are just angels. 🙂
I would like to see some good examples of anti-Arab sentiment in Hollywood and not some BS like the sand people in Star Wars: A New Hope.
The only example I can think of is the movie Network.
GSG???
Who the hell wants to “spank it” to an Arab chick with regular Arab features???…EEEeeewwwww….
You have something against Arabs?
No. Of course not.
Andy
Yes, establishing an ethnonationalist state on someone else’s land is an injustice, especially when it requires that you be the majority and leaves them as minorities within their ancestral homeland. It’s wrong no matter how you try to spin it. Regarding your Jewish children, I’m glad to know that you walked the walk.
I don’t see any possibility of a meeting of minds on the issue of the land.
70% of what was left of the British Mandate in Palestine (after 75% of the original territory was illegally given by the British to create the {Arab} Kingdom of Transjordan) was not owned by either Arabs or Jews. It was state owned land that reverted to Israel after it’s independence.
“Ancestral Homeland” has a nice emotive ring to it – but the interpretation of “Ancestral” is extremely fluid in the Arab narrative.
Israel has been unfairly demonised in the allegations of how it treats its minorities. Those minorities enjoy freedoms that minorities in Arab and/or Muslim countries can only dream about. Assuming any minorities are actually allowed in those states.
And, those Arabs that have Israeli citizenship, have not demonstrated any eagerness to exchange that for Palestinian citizenship, should the opportunity arise.
Perhaps they know something that you don’t?
Those minorities enjoy freedoms that minorities in Arab and/or Muslim countries can only dream about.
Don’t bank on it. There is only one Jewish state, and something like 57 Muslim countries. A better comparison would be how Israel treat Arabs, in relation to how Arab states within the Arab League treat Israelis on average.
Then you point will hold some weight.
How can you make the comparison when a number of Muslim/Arab countries don’t allow Jews to even exist there?
Entry to many of them with an Israeli passport, or an Israeli stamp on an International passport, is impossible. And it would appear that they don’t treat Christian and other minorities much better either.
I guess it’s a bit difficult when the dominant religion regards all non believers as inferior infidels.
On the other hand, minorities inside Israel enjoy almost unlimited freedoms, notwithstanding all propaganda efforts to paint a different picture.
And if Israel is such a terrible place for minorities why do refugees from Africa risk their lives everyday to try to cross the border to live and work here. We are not talking small numbers, but tens of thousands from sub- Sahara Africa- 20, 000 from Eritrea alone.
Isn’t it ironic; most of them are Muslim and speak Arabic – but they only want to come to Israel, not to any of our neighbours.
Maybe they know something you don’t?
Muslim and Arab ain’t the same thing, sugar tits.
Just take a vacation in Turkey. You got to watch fat Israeli guys blow wads of bank on Turkish pussy(and dick), like their ain’t a tomorrow. Turkey is a Muslim country, last I checked…
@dbc
So I understand that you accept that Jews fought and died for the Fatherland in WW1 in the same proportion as non Jews. So much for your unjustified insinuation.
Regarding the war propaganda; all parties used propaganda and scare stories to promote their war efforts. That was a normal element of warfare.
You claim that the Jews were “accused” of promoting this tactic. Firstly, an accusation does not prove guilt and, secondly, most of the propaganda was developed and promoted by non Jews.
To the extent that the Jews participated, if at all, it would have been in relation to their proportion of the populations – which amongst the allied nations was miniscule.
The Balfour declaration was based on British self interest at the time.
Have we fallen down the rabbit hole?
So now you’re all about lovin’ der Fatherland? What?
Your non-answers logical contradictions are inane.
1. Jews getting killed in armies in WW1 is an interesting footnote. Has nothing to do with the question Doesn’t take a lot to get you to gloat, huh?. You didn’t win the logical point, and you prance around like you did.
2. I don’t “claim” Jews were accused. THEY WERE ACCUSED. Fact. In fact, the accusation is TRUE! Evidence? One minute at Wiki reveals:
” During World War I, President Woodrow Wilson hired Lippmann and Bernays to participate in the Creel Commission, which was to sway popular opinion in favor of entering the war” “The war propaganda campaign of Lippmann and Bernays (two Jewish experts on propaganda) produced within six months such an intense anti-German hysteria as to permanently impress American business (and Adolf Hitler, among others) with the potential of large-scale propaganda to control public opinion.”
“The Creel Committee also encouraged censorship of the American press.” “The Committee was so unpopular that after the war, Congress closed it down without providing funding to organize and archive its papers.”
Do you know nothing about propaganda? The anti-German campaign in WW1 is still considered ground-zero for modern propaganda, and is noted for it’s outright untruths- saying Germans were doing things they were not. You are uneducated on this subject.
“most of the propaganda was developed and promoted by non Jews.” I just proved you wrong.
As far as the ludicrous assertion that Jews participate in things only in proportion to their miniscule numbers- I’m still laughing!
I might add that you tried to use the same non-truth “logic” to claim two opposite things: that they were only a small proportion of propagandists or seditionists, but that they were in the army in proper proportion.
Seeing as propaganda uses every logical fallacy in argument, which is something you do also, I would have thought you weren’t so uneducated on the subject- but I suspect you are just playing stupid just to be an asshole- something you excel at.
As for your insult about my needing “therapy”, what kind would that be? Pro-Jewish Brainwash Therapy? Sorry, already had that, growing up in the good ol’ Jew S. of A. Got over it. Lekh tiz’da’yen, you dafuk barosh ben kelev ben zona. Fuck you very much!
.
I cannot help it if you interpret facts as gloating.
The numbers of Jews who fought and died for Germany is relevant to any discussion on the position of Jews in German society.
Regarding the Creel Commission:
“During its lifetime, the organization had over twenty bureaus and divisions, with commissioner’s offices in nine foreign countries.” (wiki).
And you managed to locate 2 Jews, one of whom:
“Walter Lippmann, a Wilson adviser, journalist, and co-founder of the New Republic, was a sharp critic of Creel “( wiki)
In the case of this Commission, it would appear that Jewish participation was even less than miniscule.
I note that you continue to have an obsession with one particular bodily orifice and a preponderance to resort to vile language in closing your posts.
If that’s not a case for treatment, then i don’t know what is.
Bernays is the acknowledged father of propaganda, Bernays and Lippmann were the leaders of the propaganda team. They weren’t just “two guys”. You are a liar.
Also, you lied about my language: I called you a fuckhead, told you to go fuck yourself, and called a son a dog, son of a whore. Get the record straight! I’m putting you on “ignore”….
@Robert
What happened to you today? Got out of the wrong side of the bed? A blanket accusation about ALL Israelis?
Take me, for example:
Dirty – I shower every day and more frequently in the Summer
Loathsome – only by a couple of your contributors ( and you, apparently)
Rat-like – something to do withe the nasal shape?
Marxist – you could find it a little difficult to locate many of those here.
Professorial – well, yes. we have a lot of those. Probably accounts for our Nobel successes.
Media controlling- I can’t deny it. Jews do control the media here in Israel.
Spitting – disgusting habit but never at each other. Only in the street.
Dead Sea on the face – only when I was there with Mr Tunick ( but you know about that).
And it’s true; we do indulge in many pleasant conversations.
Unfortunately, not to frequently on this forum.
Have a good week – and stop being so grumpy. Not good for your health!
It’s a joke. This is my humor. I am making fun of anti-Semitic slurs against Jews in the descriptive adjectives you went over.
I don’t know if Israelis spit in each other’s faces when they talk, I doubt it, but the language sounds like it. Just another joke.
You’re not getting my sense of humor. No anti-Israel or anti-Jewish intent was made. Sort of the contrary, actually, making fun of anti-Semitic slurs about Jews.
Takes a while to figure me out.
If I was going to diss Jews, and I do it sometimes, I would be a lot classier about it than that.
I will probably only pop up in this thread to crack bad jokes.
OK – You know, we Jews are a bit oversensitive. Comes from years of being on the receiving end of similar remarks that were not jokes.
I’ll try to understand your humour. Meanwhile, if you could indicate at the top of the post something like “this is a joke”, it would be easier.
Of course our friend bibi/david ( or whatever is flavour of the week) is not really joking.
And if he is, he probably is overdue in seeking treatment.
It’s pretty simple really.
I just don’t engage in what I would call crude or vulgar anti-Semitism, such as screaming that Jews are a low, vulgar, Marxist, professorial, ratlike and media-controlling race. That’s what anti-Semites say. I don’t talk like that. That’s beneath a man of my station, you must understand.
Now people do accuse me of anti-Semitism and have done so pretty regularly. Some consider Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Jeff Blankfort, Karl Marx, Jimmy Carter, Kevin MacDonald, the PFLP, the Angry Arab, the Guardian, Counterpunch, Alexander Cockburn, the UN, the Democratic Party and Barack Obama to be anti-Semites. Except for MacDonald, I don’t agree with that.
Well, if I am an anti-Semite, than it would be in the spirit of these folks. Are things clearer now?
PS. There was a Wikipedia article about me once saying that I was a prime example of some weird thing called “the New Anti-Semitism,” which is supposedly anti-Semitism dressed up in anti-Zionist garb, but the article got deleted.
“Well, if I am an anti-Semite, than it would be in the spirit of these folks. Are things clearer now?”
Crystal!
BTW I really didn’t know much about MacDonald’s history. On a superficial glance at the reviews and critiques of his work I’m not sure whether Jews should feel flattered or insulted.
Whilst there is a whiff of the “protocols” and despite him appearing to have been adopted as a voice for white supremacy, some of his views are interesting.
For example, his theories relating to Jewish development in certain skills I see as quite Darwinian. Survival of………..etc.
In one of my early posts here i mentioned ( only half tongue in cheek) that I had developed a better understanding of anti-Semitism since living in Israel.
But it’s on a different level from the intellectual, politically orientated anti-Semitism in the USA.
Living in a society almost entirely surrounded by Jews can be quite stressful for someone whose formative years were spent in England where the anti-Semitism was much more genteel (then!).
MacDonald’s first three books do not have a hint of anti-Semitism in them if you ask me. In addition, that 3 part series of essays called “Understanding Jewish Activism” or something like that are outstanding!
These works are simply true! You can read them anyway you want to read them, but the truth is just the truth. These are pretty much just ethnographic studies of the Jewish people. I did a brief interview with MacDonald a while back.
Well, after those works got written, a lot of Super Jews got really freaked out. You know, the Abe Foxman kind that scream anti-Semitism constantly like a broken alarm clock. The Jews really slammed it to MacDonald, and then they tried to get him fired from his job. As this wore on, he seemed to get increasingly anti-Semitic.
His writing now is still often pretty factual, but it has some really ugly undertones to it that he didn’t have before.
I don’t think MacDonald started out as an anti-Semite, but I think the Jews turned him into one! You hit a man enough times and he might just start hitting back.
In my interview with MacDonald, done in 2006, I didn’t think he was anti-Semitic. He seemed more of a Judeophile, or like a Gentile who was fascinated by Jews. I think he also admired Jews and thought that Whites should be more like Jews.
Since then, his tone has turned rather ugly if you ask me.
I can’t debate MacDonald in depth as I haven’t read his material.
I’m also not really into the American Jewish Scene but it does seem to me that the American Jewish Organisations act in exactly the opposite way to their British equivalents.
In the UK the tendency is, and, I think, always has been , to adopt as low a profile as possible. Don’t rock the boat. Don’t do anything to upset the goyim.
They have been frequently criticised for this, including by me. It smacks to much of a ghetto mentality. On the other hand, I can see that being too strident can produce an effect opposite to that intended.
There is also a difference in how Jews are perceived in the UK. The basis of the antagonism is almost universal, but the difference is in the numbers and the power.
There are only around 250,000 Jews in the UK in a total population of around 62 million. More than 50 % live in London with the balance distributed over half a dozen major cities. So you might understand that being a Jew in England is not the same as being a Jew in America. The ability to influence anything is limited. I don’t think many people feel threatened by them, but that doesn’t mean that Jews are not demonised in stereotypical fashion. It’s just done in an understated British way.
The new dimensions are, of course, the Muslims and Anti – Zionism, with the usual knock on effects.
Maybe if you knew more British Jews it would assuage your anti-Semitic inclinations!
Well, I don’t agree that I am an anti-Semite. I’m no more of one than you are, let’s put it that way. But that’s just my opinion. Others have definitely called me that, but more in the past than they do now. Lately it is just some Far Leftists who have called me that. Jews haven’t called me that for some time now, but I used to write more about them than I do now. In fact, the Comments Policy was developed because of those damned Jews always coming around and acting terrible towards me in the comments. For a long time, a large number of the banned commenters were Jews, but that’s changed now, and we hardly ban any Jews anymore. In fact, GSG, Jewamongyou and an Israeli guy whose handle escapes me now are regular commenters.
We don’t ban anti-Semites though, and they do appear regularly in the comments section. Perhaps you may have run into one or more of them yourself here?
Good to know that your anti- Semitism, if it ever existed, has mellowed over the years.
If you continue along this path ,you could, eventually, end up as one of the tribe.
Although at your age that could be a tad painful.
Oh I was an anti-Semite all right for a while. But after a while, I realized that I had basically gone insane, so I worked my way out of it. Now I am very careful not to get back into that. Realizing that my anti-Semitism was really a form of insanity, I wonder about a lot of other anti-Semites. Are they going nuts too?
I’ve actually always wanted to be a Jew. Even when I was an anti-Semite, I wanted to be a Jew. Which is weird, but I suspect that that is going on with more than one anti-Semite.
Come on Robert. You are like the biggest Judeophile there is. I actually thought you were Jewish at first. No way you could ever be a real venomous anti-Semite, unless you are of the self-hating kind. I mean this in all seriousness. You even admitted to loving their intellectual ways. What independent thinking man wouldn’t? If you swapped “Judeophile” for “Pedophile,” you’d have to register anytime you moved within a few miles of a Synagogue, after doing a twenty year prison stint. That’s what a serious Judeophile you are.
You’re right. I love the Jews. I confess.
Sorry everyone.
Time to bust out some of that kosher porn we all love. I’ve been told by my Imam, that when no Halal XXX is available, that the Kosher kind is acceptable under those circumstances. So long as it contains no alcohol of any sort.
I really cannot understand if you are being serious or if, as you Americans so quaintly put it: “pulling my chain!”
But, FYI, as far as Israel is concerned, under the Law of the Return, a Jew can be defined as:
a) Being born of a Jewish mother
b) A convert to Judaism
c) Having no prior religious affiliation, but claiming to be Jewish.
The last one is of course problematic but relates to an apocryphal story I think attributed to Ben Gurion, who said that if someone was crazy enough to call himself a Jew, with all that entailed, then he should be accepted.
( actually, it was a wider definition than that, but this is the essence).
Of course this is not accepted by the ultra orthodox and there are daily battles here about Jewish status between the religious and secular.
The only reason I tell you all this is to reassure you that it is possible to be a member of the tribe , even if you were not born into it.
Just to give you something to aspire to!
Lookin’ out my window right now here in Southern California, I have decided to bypass become Jewish. Seems being Mexican for now is a better choice. Later down the road, probably Chinese.
As I pointed out earlier to Robert, becoming Jewish at your age could turn out to be a painful experience.
Stick with the Mexicans or Chinese.
No changes needed!
Well, if I wanted to become Mexican, no big deal. I already speak Spanish, am half way brown, and I’d just hook-up with a Chica, and bust out a few dozen kids.
Chinese is harder. I’d need to learn a very hard language, plus lots of plastic surgery would be needed. Penis delargemnt surgery is very expensive, I hear.
“As Deputy Prime Minister of Israel, I order you to end your hasbara campaign!”
Why would you do that?
Forgive me, but sometimes I have difficulty in adjusting to the humour on this forum.
Consequently I don’t understand your quote. Where did it come from?
And what is it supposed to mean?
A Jewish guy with no sense of humor…Definitely an Israeli.
Explain the joke.
Maybe I’ll laugh!
Oh, boy… 😦
“A Jewish guy with no sense of humor…Definitely an Israeli.”
You had me laughing.
Welcome to the American “flavor” of humor. Thanks to Robert, unleashed and with no strings attached.
It seem no one can explain this joke.
As it’s your post, can you?
Much appreciated. I’m waiting to laugh but I don’t yet know at what!
@cyrus
Is that an explanation?
Yes. No. Maybe. Fuck it. I don’t know. Who cares.
Well, you cared enough to make an issue of it.
Now I don’t know whether to laugh or cry!
@Cyrus
“Penis delargemnt surgery is very expensive, I hear.”
I’m not sure that in your case such drastic reduction is necessary. But, anyway, don’t do it.
From personal experience I can assure you that it is not obligatory and many Chinese ladies welcome the challenge.
I prefer butt-sex, so smaller is better.
In that case I,m sure you’re adequately equipped.
@Cyrus
Cyrus: Who the hell wants to “spank it” to an Arab chick with regular Arab features???…EEEeeewwwww….
Reply
andyboy
You have something against Arabs?
Reply
Cyrus
No. Of course not.
So, can you explain this?
Of course I got something against Arabs. I listen to right-wing pro-Israeli FOX News propaganda all day, that has convinced me our only choice as civilized white people, i.e Americans/Israelis, is a final solution of sorts.
We must fire up the ovens at Auschwitz again, but this time it is for Arabs/Muslims. We got the wrong tribe last time.
I’m sure you agree. 🙂
You’re sick!
@ car guy
Maybe you can explain what is funny about the following from Gay State Girl:
{“As Deputy Prime Minister of Israel, I order you to end your hasbara campaign!”
Why would you do that?}
I’m still waiting to laugh!
Irony is a finely tailored suite, my friend. You should try it on some time.
Is that “suite” or “suit”?
One I could try on.
The other would be a bit heavy!
“GSG???
Who the hell wants to “spank it” to an Arab chick with regular Arab features???…EEEeeewwwww….”
@Cyrus
Yeah, full burkas do serve an important purpose!! 🙂
I actually don’t think Arab women are ugly at all. Lebanese women are considered to be among the most beautiful in the world (though genetically they are more similar to Mediterraneans. North African women are quite attractive as well. I don’t find women in the gulf states to be attractive, but it seems that the marines disagree 🙂 Among Palestinian women, I find Huwaida Arraf and Jackie Salloum to be hideous but Carolyn Hanania (daughter of comedian Ray Hanania) is gorgeous.
What do you think of Jewish women?
No way. Some Gulf women are extremely beautiful. I am thinking some Saudi women.
I have also seen some hot Syrian women (Alawis and Christians) and some Palestinian women look great too. Even some Iraqi women are very beautiful.
It’s really hard to tell how good most Arab women look though because they’re usually wearing bags.
I have seen pics of a lot of Mizrachi women in Israel and a lot of them are very beautiful. I almost like them better than Ashkenazi women.
Sephardic women, Moroccans, Algerians, and Tunisians are very attractive due to the Iberian contribution to their gene pool. Mizrahi women from Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Yemen tend to have very Semitic features, so are not very attractive.
Most Palestinian girls I’ve seen are not very attractive. There is a sharp contrast between the appearance of Lebanese and Syrians, and Palestinians and Egyptians which is strange given the close proximity of the countries.
OT: two 14 year old Israeli girls made a dancing video and somehow it wound up as the fourth most viewed on Youtube. Inevitably, there was a whole slew of comments calling them “racist little zionists” and what not.
I’ve noticed that to. Syrians and Lebanese women= hot. Palestinians = fat and ugly. It gives credence to Andyboys passionate call for the eradication of the Palestinian race, all on the U.S funded tax dollar.
@Robert Lindsay
”No way. Some Gulf women are extremely beautiful. I am thinking some Saudi women.”
Yes those Burkas sure do bring out the beauty in their eyes. 😯
@Cyrus
Inbreeding makes you ugly and decreases IQ.
That is very true, John. Inbreeding does lower I.Q. Which explains my Scottish girlfriend.
There is no evidence that inbreeding lowers IQ or that it “makes you ugly” or that biracial offspring will form some sort of master race. That is pure multicultural extremism.
There is no evidence that inbreeding lowers IQ or that it “makes you ugly” or that biracial offspring will form some sort of master race. That is pure multicultural extremism.
@ GSG
Preach!
Indeed, if inbreeding really does cause lower IQ, Jews would be the dumbest people on earth, but that’s hardly the case.
And if racial mixing were really so wonderful and resulted in healthy offspring, Latin America and Brazil would be on top of the world.
@ Cyrus
You and I generally get along and I consider you a pretty cool commenter, but man, you are one of the most cynical and pissy people I have ever encountered online! 🙂
I too happen to be looking for answers.
Oh, and it appears our Andyboy friend still has trouble locating humor.
You and I generally get along and I consider you a pretty cool commenter, but man, you are one of the most cynical and pissy people I have ever encountered online!
BAG, you are the first person to ever say that to me, either online or in the real world. Nobody has ever said something to me like that to me before. Ever. I am hurt. Crushed. Utterly shattered. My life has been turned upside down,
@Gay Sate Girl
There is no evidence that inbreeding lowers IQ or that it “makes you ugly” or that biracial offspring will form some sort of master race. That is pure multicultural extremism.
Yes that is why as Andyboy has pointed out that Jews have a higher IQ than any other group is merely coincidental and has nothing to do with the fact of Jewish endogamy within Jewish communities.
There is plenty of evidence that family inbreeding causes higher rate of birth defects and health conditions and lower rate of IQ, a reason why the Mid East is in such constant social turmoil.
There is a series that aired on Channel 4 here in the UK and the Discovery Channel called “Human Mutants” that dealt with the issue of genes and how it effects the human body.
@ Bay Area Guy
Preach!
Indeed, if inbreeding really does cause lower IQ, Jews would be the dumbest people on earth, but that’s hardly the case.
And if racial mixing were really so wonderful and resulted in healthy offspring, Latin America and Brazil would be on top of the world.
I’m talking about inbreeding within the family of the Mid Eastern/Islamic cultures practice of marrying their first cousin not simply marrying within the same ethnic group.
Inbreeding does increase the rate of birth defects which is a problem among the Pakistani community in England and the main reason of lower IQ of the countries in the Mid East.
John
I know that at least one of my sets of great grand parents were third or fourth cousins and none of their children had physical defects. My great aunt on the other side married her second cousin and her sons grew up to be healthy and successful.
I’m not sure about that. Many of my fat, inbred, lazy, diabetic, high school drop-out white American co-worker subordinates tell me that those same “gulf” Arabs are not really human, while Jews are the lamb of God? Any truth to that?
I’m just a lost boy in a crazy world…Trying to get some answers.
Cyrus
The American Gulf states have a lot in common with their counter parts in the Middle East: an abundance of oil, little brainpower, and religious fanaticism.
True…Like brothers from another mother.
True. Lots of khaleeji women are quite attractive and generally just cover their heads, not their faces. They certainly do not look like darker Barbara Streisands.
Babs is hot. Don’t be hatin’ on Barbara
“Babs is hot. Don’t be hatin’ on Barbara”
An even better reaosn for me to be a parsiphile-they love Jewish women!
Parsiphile? You mean you got a thing Indo-Zoroastorians, and vice versa? Paraphiles always had a thing for me, for some reason. Don’t know why.
Wait! Just looked it up on Google…There really are “Parsiphiles” out there! People actually got a thing for Persians!?!?!? What the hell is the world coming to???
Come to think of it, I do kinda got a thing for Jewish chics. And Italian chics. Definitely Jewish chics. Always thought it would be fun to slam Bette Midler for a night.
Oh, and then there is that woman from Seinfeld. I’d hit it. Let’s see. Natalie Portman. No question there. Jennifer Connelly is Jewish. I’d do things to that body, that are still illegal in some states. The list goes on…
I haven’t met too many non Jewish Iranians in person, so I don’t know. But I love Iranian culture, Iranian food and I would love to visit Iran.
I assure you GSG most heartily, non-Jewish “Persians” are just as annoying as their Jewish counterparts. You probably couldn’t tell the difference at first or second glance.
As for visiting Iran someday, give it time. It’s tourist potential is virtually untapped. Maybe in a decade down the road, things will be a little different.
“Babs is hot. Don’t be hatin’ on Barbara”
She was actually hot in “Hello Dolly”. Not a classic American beauty, but the total package. Then she got too self-important as she got older and I couldn’t couldn’t get a hard-on for her anymore. : (
“Some Gulf women are extremely beautiful.”
So true. Very peculiar features and haunting, feline intuition quality to these women, something you don’t get from European women or even East Asian women. Nothing on the planet like them.
Sounds to me like you got some kind of fetish.
@ Cyrus
“Muslim and Arab ain’t the same thing, sugar tits.
Just take a vacation in Turkey. You got to watch fat Israeli guys blow wads of bank on Turkish pussy(and dick), like their ain’t a tomorrow. Turkey is a Muslim country, last I checked ”
Firstly, thanks for the “sugar tits”. Nicest thing anyone has called me on this forum ever.
Now – regarding Turkey:
It may have escaped you attention over there, but relations between Israel and Turkey are not exactly warm at the moment. Israeli tourism to Turkey is virtually zero. So – no Israeli guys, fat or otherwise!
And, remind me, what was the relevance of this reply to my post on minorities flocking to Israel?
So what. Israeli money gets replaced by Gulf Arab money. One group of Semitic fat-asses replaces another.
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=241836
@ Cyrus
“Always thought it would be fun to slam Bette Midler for a night”
In your dreams!
( and, given your previous claims about your equipment, don’t you think it would be a little unfair on her?).
Hey, as long as I “get mine.”
@ DBC
Last paragraph of your response to me:
“Also, you lied about my language: I called you a fuckhead, told you to go fuck yourself, and called a son a dog, son of a whore. Get the record straight! I’m putting you on “ignore”….”
I think I will have to revise my feeling that you were in need of treatment. I feel that you are getting close to being certifiable.
I think everyone would appreciate it if you actually stick to your “ignore” phase this time so that we can continue our debates for grown ups.
@ Robert
Based on his last post, i think this DBC guy has finally lost it.
But I assume he will reincarnate himself as some other mythical Israeli politician and grace the forum with more of his erudite perceptions in the near future.
That’s what you think. Take your erudite perceptions and cram it.
Sidenote: You’re ugly, too. Your picture makes for good target practice.
You know, you admit that the Israelis aren’t good at Olympic Sports…but didn’t the 1972 Team win the Gold in the Lead-Eating Competition?
Just to get an indication of the standards of this forum – does anyone think that this guy is funny?
Answering his rants is no longer an option.
In another era, without the anoymous protection of the blogoshere, the men in white coats would have been standing in line to strap on the straitjacket and cart him away to the nearest loony bin.
Nope. Nobody thinks he is funny. Of course, nobody thinks you’re funny either.
Okay, so that last joke was over the top. Call it Black (September) Humour. It was to prove a point- if killing Israelis is not cool, then why is the killing of non-Israelis so acceptable? Why is one Israeli’s life worth 1,000 non-Israelis? That is truly disgusting- that mentality.
Anyway, if it got you, Andy, to stop responding to me, then- great! Mission Accomplished! I don’t want you to respond, because you and I cannot have a logical discourse. Feel free to talk to others- if they’ll talk to you.
Being a one-note trumpet is boring- the subject of Jews/Israel is tired and worn out. There are a lot of more interesting things to think about, and talk about.
He’s funny. I’m not wild about the vulgar insults though. Though I guess it’s funny to do it in Hebrew lol.
Shalom, goyim. It’s your president, Baruch Herzl Obamawitz!
Based on the order of massa Bibi, I have commanded the CIA to monitor the internet to see if there’s anything that might piss off humorless Israelis, cuz you sho know how massa Bibi and his fellow Israelis get when you say something bad about them!
Therefore, I order Mott to stop provoking Andyboy, and to acknowledge that as an Israeli Jew, he is the most supreme human being on the planet.
Please, follow my order. I don’t want Bibi to publicly humiliate me again!
LOL.
Baruch- Your wish is my command. I have now seen the light, I order all my previous remarks stricken, and I recognize that not only are they superior but that they are truly the Chosen People of God. May Yahweh Bless the Jews, and the People of Israel! I am making out checks now to the top 12 Jewish charities (as featured in Forbes’ Top 200 Charities List).
Given the juicy language that occasionally finds its way onto this forum, I thought that now might be a good time for you guys to really appreciate your 1st amendment rights.
I found this story in a UK newspaper today:
“A man who used a social networking website to post sectarian comments about Catholics and Celtic supporters has been jailed for eight months.”
What was his offence?
“He admitted writing the religiously and racially motivated comments between February 28 and March 8 this year.
Sentencing him, Sheriff Bill Totten said the courts had to send “a clear message to deter others who might be tempted to behave in this way”.
One of the comments, posted a day before a Celtic v Rangers game on March 2 this year, read: “Hope they all die. Simple. Catholic scumbags ha ha.”
Two days after the match, he wrote: “Proud to hate Fenian tattie farmers.”
“They’re all ploughing the fields the dirty scumbags.”
He also posted abuse directed at the Pope.
Well, apart from trying to imagine what could he have written about the Pope that could possibly have been abusive, you will note that he made no personal attack on individuals .
He was referring to a Football Club!
It was only because he said sorry that he didn’t get 2 years in jail.
Savour your freedoms……………………
You do not seem to have an understanding about how “free speech” is interpreted in the U.S. That man’s “scrawl” could been easily interpreted as both a direct threat of violence, but more importantly, as a means to intimidate another group in public, and thus deprive them of their civil rights.
Nothing of the sort has ever taken place on this website, and I doubt Robert would tolerate it for even a second.
We probably would ban on that actually, thx for bringing it up.
No problemo.
@Hacienda
( “I couldn’t couldn’t get a hard-on for her anymore”).
Sorry to hear about your problem……………….
Are you offering to fix his “little” problem?
What’s your problem, kid? Every time I post here I get dick jokes out of you.
What can I say? You bring it out of me.
@Cyrus
(“Nobody thinks he is funny. Of course, nobody thinks you’re funny either.”)
And you are speaking on behalf of everyone?
Why, yes I am.
Yes.
Right wing Israelis and super jews are annoying and I’ve heard too much from them. Arabs are far more entertaining. It’s fun to watch them make asses of themselves.
Arabs NEVER stop talking about being and everything to do with anything Arabic. EVER.
Then there are “Super Jews” as you said…Someone brings them the wrong order at Denny’s, and it is the ultimate act of anti-Semitism.
Everyone just needs to drink and screw. That’ll fix it I think.
“Then there are “Super Jews” as you said…Someone brings them the wrong order at Denny’s, and it is the ultimate act of anti-Semitism.”
Yeah. They accuse Environmentalists of antisemitism, Jewish feminists are antisemitic, Occupy Wall Street is antisemitic. Marriage Equality is antisemitic. Now my dear queer congressman is a self hater as well because he did not publicly denounce anti Israel activity at OWS in Boston. It is fun to predict who they will go after next but it is pretty predictable since it mostly involves left wing organizations or, for older Jews, anyone who does not immerse themselves in Jewish culture.
Arabs are a strange animal indeed. They try to appear menacing to Israelis or Western neocons, but, in the presence of the UN diplomats and the Anti War Movement or Palestinian Solidarity Movement, they portray themselves as passive and non threatening and appear not to mind giving off the notion that they are a backward, uneducated, and impoverished as long as it evokes sympathy and donations. But in regards to other Muslims, they maintain their cultural superiority towards more backward Arabs never show an ounce of gratitude. In many instances they have employed Pakistanis or Afghans to do their dirty work and show no intention of repaying them. Of course now that they are gaining more international sympathy and interest, they seem to be seizing on it and taking advantage of the overall naivete and unquestioning loyalty of left wing idealists. They are using the newfound sympathy for the Palestinian cause to whitewash and glorify their culture. I’ve heard Palestinians make ridiculous claims about how advanced their society is and brag about how educated they are, but they’d gladly abandon that attitude when they want aid or pity.
Is it true that your coworkers believe Jews are the lamb of God? If so, I’d like to meet them.
Arabs are a strange animal indeed. They try to appear menacing to Israelis or Western neocons, but, in the presence of the UN diplomats and the Anti War Movement or Palestinian Solidarity Movement, they portray themselves as passive and non threatening and appear not to mind giving off the notion that they are a backward, uneducated, and impoverished as long as it evokes sympathy and donations. But in regards to other Muslims, they maintain their cultural superiority towards more backward Arabs never show an ounce of gratitude.
Well, let’s put it this way. Within the “Persian” cultural sphere, and Arab is someone who gladly befriends a traveler, invites them for dinner and to stay the evening. Gives them their own bed to sleep in. Then cuts their throat in the middle of the night.
This is actually a very common saying amongst Persian speakers, when asked about their opinion of Arabs.
As for an Arab’s view of “others,” it works like this. A Muslim Arab views none-Arab Muslims as inherently inferior. Why? Because Mohammed was an Arab, and Arabic is the language of the Koran. A non-Arab Muslim who can’t speak any Arabic(read most), is even less on the totem pole. After all, why wouldn’t any human being on Earth not want to master God’s own language? I.E Arab speak?
As for Arabs referring to Arabs. Gulf Arabs view themselves as “God’s chosen people.” Why? Because Mohammed for all intents and purposes was one of them(I know he lived closer to the Red Sea, but you get the point). Arab Christians hate Arab Muslims for many reasons, and have a superiority complex(the Christians have spent the last few centuries kicking the shit out of the Muslim world). Many Arab Christians do not even think of themselves as Arabs. Lebanese view themselves as superior to say Egyptians, well, becuase they look more “European” i.e “white.” Etc, etc.
Actually, I have met quite a few Arab Christians, and they all referred to themselves as Arabs.
It is only some of the hardcore Lebanese Falangist types who reject being called Arabs.
@Robert:
Actually, I have met quite a few Arab Christians, and they all referred to themselves as Arabs.
It is only some of the hardcore Lebanese Falangist types who reject being called Arabs.
I was thinking more along the line of Egyptian Copts when I wrote that, who are not technically Arab, but speak Arabic the same as any Muslim Egyptian, who call themselves Arabs, but are technically no more “Arab” by any metric than the Copts.
You are right though. Most Arab Christians are just that. Arab. They hate Muslims(namely Arab ones), but are still fanatically “Arab” when all is said and done.
Shit gives me a headache just thinking about it…
@Cyrus- I agree 100% with your and GSG’s comment about Arabs and Super- Js.
I disagree slightly, with your other point- I know I’ve gotten a least a few good chuckles recently- so at least a few of you think I’m funny, at least some of the time. You’ve said some funny stuff yourself on occaision. Credit where credit due!
GSG still hasn’t figured out the difference between shami Arabs (Lebanese, Pallys, Syrians, Iraqis) and Gulf Arabs (khaleejis), but that’s ok, she just recently figured out that Arabs and Muslims aren’t the same race.
Yes I know the difference, and the fact that Arab identity is an artificial construct since it encompasses a large amount of people and geographic area. Arabs of different nationalities may have different practices and may even have internal conflicts with Arabs of other nationalities just as 19th century Jews may have had differences or internal conflicts with Jews other nationalities. They all share(d) the same cultural chauvinism in the face of non Arabs or non Jews. That angry little Korean kid once said he hated Arabs from the Gulf and felt that Levantine Arabs were vastly superior and I’ve heard Palestinians talk about how superior they were to the Gulf Arabs and even the more local Arabs (Jordanians and Egyptians) but I don’t buy it. Can you tell the difference between Yekkes, Ruskis, Palishes, Galicianos (Sephardim in Eastern Europe), Litvaks, and Kavkazis (Caucasian jews)? Do those minute differences matter to you?
As Gay Area Guy once said, I’m one of the most reasonable Jews he’s met. Wade referred to me a “Shindler’s list quality Jew,” as opposed to a “Jew for the ovens” which was reserved for Angela.
I mentioned it because you had once said that non arab muslims owe the Pallys nothing since the Gulf Arabs (you mentioned dubai) mistreat them. The statement is totally illogical.
“As Gay Area Guy once said, I’m one of the most reasonable Jews he’s met. Wade referred to me a “Shindler’s list quality Jew,” as opposed to a “Jew for the ovens” which was reserved for Angela.”
This is amusing. You’ve said this before many many times. Why do you rely so heavily on others to validate your self worth? I do respect BAG and Wade but why do you keep dragging them into this?
Palestinians have had little opportunity to mistreat them but do show racist tendencies. I know that in neighboring Lebanon, Sri Lankan nannies are not allowed to go swim in the ocean with the children they take care of.
I don’t expect you to say anything good about the my tribe. Most of the arguments are overused and I find empty compliments to be superficial and I don’t need you to like me. I’m not that desperate. But don’t hurl out random insults. They detract from your argument and reflect more poorly on you than your opponents. you won’t win over any undecided onlookers by behaving that way.
GSG
I don’t dislike you, its just that you make emotional arguments and hence come out sounding irrational sometimes. Like your last argument. It’s irrelevant what character flaws the pallys have, their mistreatment should stop. This is morality 101. Morality is universal, not opportunistic. Similarly if you’re going to oppose Israel, it should be on moral grounds, not because they ‘don’t give diaspora jews anything in return.’ There are some arabs I like, some I don’t. I’m indifferent to the Pallys, I can’t stand the khaleejis, I like the Jordanians, don’t care much for the Egyptians, and I think Syrians are quite friendly. I’ve known and grown up around these people in Dubai, so I understand them.
Yes I know the difference, and the fact that Arab identity is an artificial construct since it encompasses a large amount of people and geographic area.
Yup. Sort of like the concept of “Hispanic,” I’ve always argued. Our calling us “Anglo.”
Of course, one could also argue that Israel and the U.S have a rather artificial origin as well, since they are both composed basically of immigrants from different primary linguistic backgrounds, who adopted a new language and made a new culture. Hell, you could make that argument about Pakistan, to.
Andy
It is counterproductive to trash Arabs. They do a better job of making themselves look bad. Just sit back and relax.
Drama queens. The lot of them. I’m gonna go watch some midget porn, and forget about it.
@Gay State Girl
Arabs are a strange animal indeed. They try to appear menacing to Israelis or Western neocons, but, in the presence of the UN diplomats and the Anti War Movement or Palestinian Solidarity Movement, they portray themselves as passive and non threatening and appear not to mind giving off the notion that they are a backward, uneducated, and impoverished as long as it evokes sympathy and donations.
So they are acting like Jews/Israelis then minus being backwards and uneducated. 😉
Palestinian inbreeding no doubt contributes to Palestinians dismal state of affairs whose most effective weapon against Israel is to simply overpopulate them.
Launching terror attacks is simply counter productive.
It’s amazing that the 2 tribes can not get along with each other seeing how Jews and Zionist Jews cooperate with Muslims all the time especially against Christians with many prominent Jews, Zionist and non-Zionist supporting this Turkish anti-Christ Empire which will eventually turn on Israel itself after the destruction of Russia and the Orthodox resistance.
Or so they think. 😉
It is all in biblical prophecy which is coming to fruition at an amazing rate.
In the words of Becker: Put the bible down, nobody gets hurt
@Dota
Is that a new US/Islamic law the Evil Empire is starting to impose?
Anti-Christ America finances and spreads Islam/jihadism around the world while burning bibles in Afghanistan.
US lame ass argument as always just doesn’t hold water.
I don’t think I trash Arabs as such.
I simply take issue with their actions and the fact that they are so much better at lying than we are.
After all, the Palestinian Arabs have pretty much convinced everyone else on the forum that the only true narrative belongs to them.
@ Andyboy
After all, the Palestinian Arabs have pretty much convinced everyone else on the forum that the only true narrative belongs to them.
That’s something you can relate to.
Maybe I could have related to it had I convinced anyone here that the Palestinian narrative is flawed and basically untrue.
However, we all know that truth is relative and perception is everything. Since you have all decided on your perceptions, based on inbuilt prejudices or I don’t know what, I understand that my truth has no meaning to you.
It’s almost like Religion or belief in a God. Those who believe cannot be persuaded by logic.
But I will continue to give you the facts; you will continue to reject them; and so we will proceed until we give up or die, whichever comes first.
Andyboy, if I’d have to categorize you…I probably put you in the ideological arena of fascism.
Oh, and don’t know about that. You guys helped lie us into a war, that has basically bankrupted our economy. Can’t pin that on the Arabs, now can we.
A perfect example of relative, or in this case, creative “truth”.
Whatever wars you got yourselves into had everything to do with what your leadership considered to be in the best interests of America at that time and nothing to do with us ( whoever “you guys”are.)
And you can pin anything on the Arabs that suits you.
As far as categorising goes, I guess I would have to categorise you as having a phobia about imagined Jewish power. is there a name for that?
Whatever wars you got yourselves into had everything to do with what your leadership considered to be in the best interests of America at that time and nothing to do with us ( whoever “you guys”are.)
Of course, Israeli lobbying and the pro-Israel lobby in the U.S had nothing to do with it, right? The war in Iraq has nothing to do with Israel’s interests in the U.S. Nothing at all.
And you can pin anything on the Arabs that suits you.
Oh, and think if you bother to look at my comments history…
As far as categorising goes, I guess I would have to categorise you as having a phobia about imagined Jewish power. is there a name for that?
I said Israel and the Israeli lobby. The majority involved in the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, are in fact Christian. You sir, and bringing up Jewish folks solely into this. You in fact, sound like an antisemite to me.
Of course Andyboy. You’re no bigot. Nobody would ever accuse you of anything like Islamophobia, ethnocentric thinking, and ethnic or racial sweeping generalizations. Never. Uh-hmm. No way.
Well – no thinking person would, but I’m not responsible for your worldview.
How goes it with the boys(and girls) over at the Internet Haganah lately? You folks staying busy?
Hey Robert, why is my Baruch Obamawitz alter ego being denied. I sense an anti-Semitic conspiracy here!
@Bay Area Guy
Guess what country your golden boy president has been in contact more than any other leader and no it is not Israel?
@ Dota
“Morality is universal,”
You really think so?
I think that there are few victims of Sharia Law who might disagree with you, ( well, if they were still alive they would).
Honour killings spring to mind. Stoning to death. Lashings. Hand amputation,executions of homosexuals etc.
Still think morality is universal?
“Still think morality is universal?”
It is, because reason exists. But it’s not a trivial thing. It has to be lived.
It seems to me that reason, itself, is not universal. Logically, applying the rule of natural law, it should be.
But, in reality the mix of morality, ethical action and religious belief is not constant in mankind. What is valid in one society is unacceptable in another.
It has always been like that, and I don’t see how it can possibly change in the future.
“What is valid in one society is unacceptable in another.”
It’s a strange world. Germany in the long run will flourish, all they have to go through is kabuki perfomance wrt to Holocaust guilt. Couple more generations, that’s all. And kabuki is a gift of the Japanese to the Germans.
Context, context, context. It’s one reason why Germans can’t make good movies. Jews are too few in number to ever possess true wisdom. Although that doesn’t prevent them from being a VERY interesting people. Never trust a tiny minority whether by class, race, ethnicity, education, training, religion, or whatever.
Wow. I don’t what your spoutin’ off about…But it kinda turns me on!
Executive Order:
“stop provoking Andyboy, and to acknowledge that as an Israeli Jew, he is the most supreme human being on the planet.”
This adulation, whilst well deserved, is nonetheless, appreciated.
@ Hacienda
I think you’re right about Germany; they deal with their “Holocaust guilt” very well simply by not having any. It’s called denial, and is a perfect example of relative morality.
Can you expand on your thought that wisdom and population size are connected, and why you wouldn’t trust a minority?
Germans are fundamentally nihilistic. In the something of the way Buddhists are nihilistic. But that doesn’t imply relative morality. You just haven’t thought it through.
Minorities, especially small ones overreact to events. They can’t stay balanced. It’s basically an matter of centeredness and equilibrium. Jews defines themselves wrt to Teutons, too much. The Aryan monster in the Jewish nightmare. Not good for chi. The Chinese, they went through a lot of shit, still do. They shrug of these things, mostly. There are so many of them. And they are blessed with good sense to begin with. Confucious, Lao Tze, etc. Abraham is a seething animal in comparison, eh?
Are Germans nihilistic about themselves – or only about other minorities whose life values they negate.
Don’t know much about Buddhists, but they seem to have a relaxed attitude to life.
Except,of course, when they’re immolating themselves in some political cause, as happened today. Is that any connection to nihilism?
The Jewish nightmare, as you call it, was not, unfortunately, just a nightmare; it was stark reality; so you can understand their reservations when Aryans and morality are used together in the same sentence.
I’m not sure about Abraham; but the God of Abraham is worse than just a seething animal. He redefined malevolence. On the other hand, his re-incarnation as the Christian God, and then the Muslim God, didn’t do a great deal for mankind either.
Hence my Atheism.
Hacienda
“It is, because reason exists. But it’s not a trivial thing. It has to be lived.”
I’ve got to frame this. Well said. I hate it when retards suscribe to an interpretist ontology just to justify bad behavior, whether Muslim or Jewish.
‘Confucious, Lao Tze, etc. ”
You forgot Mencius. Anyhow Hacienda I’ve been meaning to ask you this, you mentioned before that you grew up in a very confucian household. Can you tell me something about confucian morality? In Indian culture, morality does not exist, not in the western sense anyhow. Indians have Dharma, which emphasizes correct behaviour and practice, but not morality. Hence corruption and fraud are tolerated in ways that would be completely unacceptable in the West, so long as people care for their parents and educate their children. Indians are amoral.
@ Cyrus
(“You folks staying busy?”)
Well, I guess as long as you keep churning out your crap, we’ll be kept very busy.