36

I'm stepping down as admin because of some shit I did - emma will be returning as webmaster and leftous will take a temp admin position until Tequila can find someone else

Submitted by ziq in lobby (edited )

This is going to be a long read, sorry about that. I'd rather just go straight to the apology, but few people will understand what I'm apologizing for unless I give some history first.

When I first made this site, it was pretty dead around here for a long time. I made several different accounts to post articles and start convos. I wanted to make the site appear more active so people would be more willing to participate. It's a pretty standard strategy to get a new forum started, I told myself.

Most of those accounts were interchangeable - cherimoya, avocado, karlmarx, binary, radditnews. I just switched between them to post news articles and make throwaway comments. Since I was posting 95% of all the content for the first 8 months or so, I figured it would be better if the front page didn't look like there was just one user here.

It worked, and more people started investing themselves in the site when they saw it wasn't completely dead.

When things started to pick up, I decided to make parody accounts that attempted to inject humor into the site...

I read complaints that the place was too doom-and-gloom with all the horrible news stories, and I wanted to give the place a better sense of community and fun. So I made accounts like Chomskyist, BigGeorge and Kylie. But in retrospect, creating Chomskyist was a giant misstep.

I used that account to repost / recut years-old reddit comments I found on r/anarchism. A lot of them were good comments, but occasionally I'd throw in something ridiculously liberal. Then I would use another account to point out the absurdity of those liberal comments and poke fun at them.

I'm usually online at work in a timezone when most raddlers are asleep, so I did that mainly to amuse myself on my lunch break when there was no one around to talk to.

I didn't think anyone would take Chomskyist seriously with a username like that, but I was very wrong. Soon people were having heated discussions with my parody account, and I kept posting increasingly inane replies with it - a lot of them adapted from old reddit comments.

I retired Chomskyist when I started to feel bad about the users that were making a real effort to engage with what was effectively a giant strawman. It felt like I was trolling the whole community, when I only ever intended to poke fun at some liberal viewpoints and create colorful characters that everyone could join together in laughing at.

I learned early on that if an admin says something controversial, some people will have a very hostile reaction to it and leave the site. On raddit 1.0 before the redesign, I talked about my postciv and postleft politics openly, and it led to a communist user (really, the only regular contributor other than me) quitting the site in anger because "fucking filthy primmie scum" I think were the words they used.

After that clusterfuck, I was incredibly careful what I said with ziq; to avoid people holding my personal politics against the whole site.

I made a couple of accounts where I could speak my mind without causing people to ragequit. This is where things get really hairy.

One of these 2 accounts was postcivver, which was me holding back a lot like you'd do in polite company. But the other was defasher, which was an extreme unfiltered version of myself. Anti-civ, post-left, full-on nihilism, fuck the world and fuck you.

I'd say the real me, if such a thing exists, is probably in constant conflict between those 2 personalities. The hopeful postcivver that wants to create a better, greener world, and the cynical defasher that just wants this society to burn.

Anyway, you can tell by now where this is going. On slow days when the site seemed dead, I'd spend my lunch break using defasher to create controversy. I'd use a strawman (spock) to say something ridiculous, then have defasher talk shit to the strawman and any real users who later defended the strawman. This created divisions between raddle's userbase - specifically between communists and postleftists, transhumanists and anticivs.

My best friend and fellow-admin emma knew about my antics, and she didn't say anything at first, but she was silently hurting. I was abusing her small group of friends for my own amusement and I think I was turning her only safe space into a nightmare for her...

Finally she told me how she felt, told me how horrible it was for her to have to lie to her friends and cover for me while I used alts to make a mockery of their ideologies. She indicated she wanted to tell them the truth because she couldn't deal with the stress.

I didn't handle that very well at all. I felt completely horrible that I had caused her so much grief, so I deleted defasher. But at the same time, I got incredibly paranoid that she had considered telling her friends (who have a strong hatred for anticivs) the truth, and I cut myself off from emma because of it.

Communication between us was non existent for several days and I was bracing to get doxxed again, because one of the user's involved in the spat knew my private info.

Things got worse with defasher gone. The users began to direct their anger at my admin account - and even at tequila, who knew nothing about my weird roleplaying antics, but had opposed their proposal to ban 'trolling' without having any idea what I was up to.

One of the users involved (gnu_ponut) demanded that emma tell them private things about me. In my paranoia, I felt like this person was stalking me and that I was in danger of being doxed again.

When their proposal failed, 2 users, good friends of emma, quit the site.

I started badmouthing the person who I felt was stalking me after they quit, and emma watched silently as I insulted her good friend. Then she left the site too. ShiningWing followed her. Then sudo. I'd effectively pushed 5 people off the site with my toxic behavior.

So, I think that's everything. I don't think anyone will disagree that I have to step down. I want to work to mend my friendship with emma, and do the right thing by tequila, who until recently was completely in the dark about all this.

emma has agreed to come back in a limited capacity as the webmaster, and Tequila will remain admin, and look to promote another user to replace me. leftous has agreed to fill the role for now. I'll keep paying the bills but won't be involved in administration or moderating the site at all; and will just be a regular user. I'll retire all my accounts other than this one.

And if you decide you don't want me posting here any more, then that's fine too. I want to take full responsibility for my actions so raddle can have a chance to recover from this mess I made.

I want to apologize to emma for the stress I put you through, to tequila for having to spend their time and energy mediating squabbles because of my shitstirring, to nodefunallowed for being a bad friend to you and speaking ill of your ideology, to gnu_ponut for villainizing you and blaming you for everything when I was largely responsible, and to shiningwing and sudo for making you both feel unwelcome because of my nihilistic aggro anti-ML bullshit.

Most of all I want to apologize to the whole raddle community. You deserve better.

Comments

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20

365degrees wrote

Hi ziq, I'm actually no_defun_allowed. (Not that I really tried to hide it, hah. :)

I'm sorry too for badmouthing you and ruining what we had set up way back. That wasn't very nice of me. Honestly, I'd rather you had let it out without using alternate accounts, though I'm not sure how agreeable that would be, but it would be more accountable and it would put less pressure on you, which would make anything like this easier to manage as well.

It's okay, you made a mistake and you've come clean about hiding it. That's perfectly fine. Would you be alright with a hug after all this?

16

Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

Hi all!

Your friendly neighbourhood Tequila_Wolf here with damage control.

I’ve known about this since soon after emma left. Since that time, I’ve been steadily working on resolving the situation, in hopes ultimately that the right thing would be done, and that emma would return as admin and an active part of Raddle's growth. I’ve had an intense amount of personal stuff separate from the site to deal with, so it’s been slower and less effective that I would have liked, but this final outcome is something I’m happy with (given the circumstances).

Though this is all news to you, I should say that since I have found out, I’ve expressed to ziq the problems I’ve had with their behaviour, and I have seen real steps taken by them to avoid doing it further. That, in conjunction with the apology here, I consider significant amends after a long period of stress and suffering on all our parts.

I’m really glad this has happened, because it’s been quite painful keeping it quiet while being sensitive to each persons individual personal involvement and their privacy.

To be clear, the problems I’ve had with ziq was not that they used alts at all (I think the creation of alts is a useful tool for establishing a new site like this, and for maintaining privacy, among other possible reasons) - what I did have a problem with what ziq’s representation of certain viewpoints through individuals, in bad faith. In particular here I especially mean Chomskyist and Spock, two transhumanist characters who were parts of bitter fights with ziq’s other alts, which often came with a significant emotional burden for other users who participated - and also for those of us who felt like curators of the space, leaving us like we had to spend a lot of time putting out fires was totally not ok.

Personally I hope ziq will remain active on the site, and I understand their vacating the position of admin as a process of making amends.

Though this does not mean that emma will return as an admin, she has agreed to return as webmaster. With leftous stepping forward to take on the role of admin temporarily, the work-arrangement of the site will be as follows:

Tequila_Wolf: admin
emma: webmaster
leftous: (temporary) admin
ziq: site registered and maintained/paid for in their name

Ok, that’s the short version that I’ve written up ahead of reading what ziq has to say. You’re welcome to ask questions or whatever. So far as I’m concerned, this is a good thing for Raddle, because it’s taking a step forward in being transparent and doing meaningful work to remain responsible. I don't think many communities are cool or strong enough to do this kind of intensive internal work in itself, so I'm proud that we are.

edits: some clarifications on vagueness.

3

Tequila_Wolf wrote

I should add, it's very likely that the alts influenced voting procedures and cut corners with due process, and as such these things may need revisiting. I haven't had the energy to go through the forum history and am surprised that nobody here has checked since this information has emerged, because I had imagined that would be what happened, and that people would be less ok than they have been with all this.

6

SouthsideGrackles wrote

"I had imagined that would be what happened, and that people would be less ok than they have been with all this."

No offense to all the people apparently so cool with this, but, honestly, it makes me worried some of them are ziq alts too being used to manipulate how this is being received. I know that sounds paranoid, but considering the level ziq took the use of alts in the past, it seems quite possible -- at least to me.

2

Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

I think it's in part because of the way I framed things, which was perhaps extra positive in my relief. That said, I don't think that ziq is using alts to make things seem better here now.

4

SouthsideGrackles wrote

I'm not saying they definitely are, but considering the extremely bizarre, manipulative and shameless extent to which they used alts in the past, and considering how surprising it is how cool everyone here is with it, I think it is more likely they are still doing so, and that them doing so is in part an explanation for the surprising level of acceptance by people here.

I just think them doing so still is more likely than people being this cool with what they did, which was pretty fucked up.

3

leftous wrote

I think the reality is that a lot of us really like ziq and see him as a friend. He did do something really shitty and he's owning up to it, even giving his admin rights away. If you had a friend betray you and admit it was fucked up, you'd (possibly) want to give them another chance too.

It is possible that they influenced votes and policies on this site with their alts, which might be the most egrigious part of this. But I hope it wasn't that extreme.

9

GNU_PONUT wrote (edited )

the reality is it was this extreme, take some time to look back in the meta threads and you will find plenty of evidence, not only were they voting in meta but they were using the extra voices to fabricate opinion

here is an example of that where almost every single parent comment is a ziq alternate account (turniphead hasn't been disclosed but their account has been set to deleted, which it wasn't yesterday)

7

leftous wrote

Holy fuck that thread is disturbing knowing what we know now. We definitely need to reevaluate pretty much everything in f/meta.

2

throwaway3295634 wrote

Another case is the /f/mediation policy vote, where ziq voted three times in support: https://archive.fo/6CKql

8

SouthsideGrackles wrote

If I had a friend who lied and manipulated people in a hurtful way I would be much more hesitant than people are being here to believe their story and sincerity. I would never trust them to the same level again, and it would take much more than this for me to trust them at all.

Plus, from what I hear ziq engaged in very similar behavior in the past on reddit. This wasn't an accident or one time thing. They acted like this for months or longer, watched people get upset, watched them leave, blamed the people they fucked with instead of themselves...convinced others (like emma) to lie for them and be complicit.

I'd be pretty hesitant to call someone capable of acting like that a friend or to believe what they say.

But, to each their own I suppose.

6

leftous wrote

You make a good point, I hadn't considered that this really was a pattern of manipulative behavior. I wasn't on reddit at the time, but it is clear that ziq was aware of what he was doing here and the damage it was causing.

-2

attentionwhore wrote

if the really has been a pattern(which it has because everybody doez this on the ethernetz), then as the saying goes "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me"

1

SouthsideGrackles wrote

Not everyone does this. That's deranged.

This is bizarre and exceptionally disgusting behavior, and is in no way typical.

Stop trying to normalize it.

0

ziq wrote

Please don't call people deranged, you have no idea what mental health issues people might have.

3

SouthsideGrackles wrote (edited )

Fine, it is extremely fucked up and comepletely devoid of any connection to reality to think that the way you behaved is normal or typical behavior. I hope that's better, because that is what I was trying to convey.

-2

ziq wrote

Okay, I've apologized 100 times, I've given up my role on the site I created and devoted 1000s of hours to, I've violated my privacy and opened myself up to being doxxed by angry tankies.

You reddit trolls won't be satisfied until raddle has been burned to the ground (yes, I saw your proposal to remove raddle from r/@ on reddit). So just fuck off back to reddit where you're happy. K thx.

1

SouthsideGrackles wrote

See, you apologize and attack simultaneously.

You're not really sorry, you're sorry you had to stop.

And I don't even think you have stopped. I think you have more alts that even emma doesn't know about. Or maybe ziq is a strawman and emma is the real person, and that's why she kept your secret while you abused people. I don't know, but you've demonstrated yourself as someone people would be foolish to trust, and, like it or not, it is hard to trust this site and the claims that anyone makes about it because of that.

-1

ziq wrote

I never apologized to you, troll. Just to people that actually give a shit about raddle and haven't badmouthed it all over reddit for months and used this as an opportunity to ban the site from r/@.

Fuck you tho :)

1

SouthsideGrackles wrote

I never said you did apologize to me. And, also, you calling someone a troll is pretty absurd considering the lengths to which you took trolling.

And you can say "fuck you" to me all you want, and disparage me all you want -- the facts are the facts, and your character and anything you touch is covered in shit right now based on those facts.

-1

ziq wrote

Yo, you got your pound of flesh already so fuck off back to reddit now.

2

SouthsideGrackles wrote

One reason why I don't think you're apology is sincere and why I don't think you have any intention of changing your behavior is because, if you really were sincere, you would know that the main part of taking responsibility for one's actions is not attacking and blaming everyone who doesn't immediately forgive you or who shows concern or anger still about your actions.

Take my advice: shut your mouth for a bit. Realize you dug yourself into a whole, stop blaming others, and, for fuck's sake, STOP DIGGING.

-2

attentionwhore wrote

Abused people? Calm the fuck down, this is not a rape-quiz

1

ziq wrote

Idk what that means but rape jokes aren't good.

-2

attentionwhore wrote (edited )

no joke, on the contrary he is making a joke of the term abuse by using it in this context compared to what it means in the context of rape(or any other context for that matter), now you should be disgusted with yourself SouthsideGrackles

-3

attentionwhore wrote

fair enough, not everyone but a whole fucking lot. The only reason you don't hear about it is because most people don't get this butthurt and just move on

3

SouthsideGrackles wrote

I don't believe a whole lot of people do this. If you do this you should be ashamed and disgusted with yourself.

And don't you realize that running people off is one way people control online communities?

16

amongstclouds wrote

This really does upset me here. I haven't stopped by in a few weeks because I REALLY did not like the direction Raddle was going and I guess I hope things change.

8

ziq wrote

I'm sorry.

8

amongstclouds wrote (edited )

You've already apologize and I am very thankful for it. It takes a really strong person to be real with everyone, especially a community you do definitely do love.

We should be using Raddle for organizing against capitalism and the bizarre form of 'civilization' we live in and not for petty drama. This is why we left Reddit and why I personally gave up on Leftbook ('Leftism,' as a whole really, especially the spectacle that is US 'leftist' politics.

14

GNU_PONUT wrote

Hi ziq

you've done a brave and responsible thing by apologizing to us all like this.

I don't really have much to say right now, I'm kinda shocked it was this widespread.

I want you to know I accept your apology and hope we can go about building a community that accepts each other and their hiccups together.

13

throwaway3295634 wrote

...Hey, it's Shining Wing here. I'm going to say this, because everyone seems to be forgetting exactly what it is that you've done over the history over the site. But I'm not, so I'm going to say it here, because it needs to be said. (This is a really long comment btw, sorry)

Nobody's even considering that the revelation of most of your alts, it basically proves that the site's "democracy" was sham to begin with. When you have multiple alts that everyone thinks are different people, on a site this small, it completely shifts the public opinion in your favor, and any proposals made are largely determined by whether or not you liked them and decided to use your alts to vote on them.

Not to mention that you and your alts were some of the largest voices on the site. If someone disagreed with you, you had the ability to shout them down with multiple alts and nobody would question it. And that's pretty much exactly how it went, loads of people were afraid to speak up against you and your alts because you had the biggest presence on the site and it seemed like it was really loads of people.

Plus, this reveals that you removed me from spambuster all those months ago pretty much entirely on your own, as it's been revealed that just about every single comment in that thread was made by your alts (the thread itself was created by Defasher). And then you had the nerve to lie to my face and say that you appreciated my term there, when you clearly wanted me out as soon as possible, even though I wasn't even doing much other than thinking we needed to do more about the site's toxicity.

...And then there's the harassment. It did happen. You used accounts like Defasher to attack anyone you disagreed with, no matter what they did to you, and then used your other alts to stick up for them so that people would think it's okay. For example, when a proposal was made to ban trolling on the site, you (as Defasher) attacked both the creator of the thread, and me, even though Defasher wasn't even mentioned in the thread. Personally, I had never even done anything to Defasher in the past, yet you attacked me a lot as Defasher. And yet, when I was a spambuster, I was constantly trying to work with you and Emma to make the site a less toxic place specifically because I was being attacked for disagreements, mostly by Defasher. And yet you constantly refused to do anything about it, which we now know was because you yourself got some kind of entertainment out of trolling and harassing people.

I see that other people in this thread are forgiving you for this, and saying that it was "okay" and "a little mistake", but it's not. I can't really forgive you for this, you've caused me so much hurt in the past, and done so much to make the site the terrible place it was for the longest time. This has been going on for so long that it's not simply a "mistake", you full well knew what you were doing.

I've been silent on this whole thing for so long, but now I feel that I have to speak up, now that I know that it was you that was the cause of so pain I've went through, someone who supposedly respected me for so long. I know I'm probably gonna get some shit for this, but it really needs to be said. What you've done over the site's history has caused so much harm, and it can't be left unstated. With all that considered, I'm sorry, but I can't accept your apology.

...One last thing. I never announced at the time why I left, so I better say it here while I have the chance. Some of you seem to think I'm a spiteful asshole, partly due to ziq shit-talking me immediately after I left, but I'm really not trying to be. I was just trying to get along with people on this site, but being attacked by mostly ziq's alts made me hate using the site more and more, on top of how they attacked my friends. Hell, I once tried to get along with Defasher, despite the disagreements, but eventually they just went back to attacking me, so I just stopped trying, and eventually stopped actively participating in the site more and more. Once it got really bad, and my friends left, there was nothing left for me to enjoy on the site, so I left.

6

leftous wrote

I'm really sorry I didn't understand this situation at all at the time :( It really is completely messed up and I think a lot of us hardly understand just how bad this is. I didn't take in how ziq was basically ruling this place with an ironfist under the guise of working at the community's will.

4

Tequila_Wolf wrote

Hopefully users will look around to find other dodgy cases like the one gnu_ponut has posted.

I had a sense that it might be happening, but until it was clearly pointed out to me in chat today for the second time, I hadn't processed the depth of it. Yesterday gnu_ponut had shown me as well, I think, but I'm a bit worn out and didn't give it the attention it needed.

It does make things more shocking, and I wish I had done a better job of being clear with ziq about what needed to be apologised for.

6

Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

I think it's an important part of this process that people say what they have to say, and I don't think you're being spiteful. This is important stuff, and it doesn't seem that most users here have engaged very deeply with the ramifications of ziq's admissions. This may be partly my fault, because I presented things in as good a light as I did.

Hopefully there will be more discussion and engagement so that everything is clear and heard.

edit: also, emma hasn't said anything yet. I know she had a lot on her plate today, so she may still say something.

2

ziq wrote (edited )

Just want to say you were never elected as spambuster and were only given the position temporarily while voat was flooding us with spam (because I was exhausted from waking up every hour at night to delete it). This was made very clear to you.

But you then started telling everyone you were an admin when you weren't (you even wrote in your profile 'I'm an admin"), and you were censoring / banning people for no good reason.

You had to go, and I'm not sorry for removing you the way I did - which is to say, by using (defasher?) to bring up the fact that you weren't elected and were not an admin - but represented yourself as such - and then removing your admin privileges once everyone was aware.

I was trying to protect raddle without causing your ML friends to ragequit the site because you're an ML and I'm an anarchist. You put me in that position by telling everyone you were an admin without there ever being an election held or an announcement. There was no need for a vote to remove you because you were never elected in the first place and you're misrepresenting what happened. You should have never let those temporary privileges go to your head. You should have never abused your temporary position which was only granted to you to remove spam during the raid.

And yes, I don't like tankies. I'm not an admin so I can speak my mind now.

From now on, you ban people for 'liberalism' (anarchism), and you try to make rules to ban disagreement, I'll tell you exactly what I think of you.

Your politics scare the shit out of me.

2

throwaway3295634 wrote

Okay, so let me get this straight, I temp-ban someone once from a forum (and deleted only two non-spam comments over my entire mod history at /f/Communism) because I felt they were breaking a vague rule, and later took it back and felt like it was a mistake, and suddenly I'm "censoring and banning" people? I mean, it's really petty of you to be bringing that up, because that happened months ago and was more or less an isolated incident that I thought we all moved past. For the record, this is why I'm saying you're shit-talking me. I make one mistake (absolutely nothing compared to what you've done over the site's history) that I later take back, and you go say I'm some kind of horrible person.

I hadn't done anything to Defasher then (they weren't the one I banned or removed comments from), yet they were the one attacking me more than anyone else on that thread. I later even tried to apologise to Defasher, and then proceeded to not interact with Defasher over the next months, yet I still ended up receiving attacks eventually. So don't try make me out to be the asshole here, because you were attacking me at every step.

You also really obsess over how I occasionally called myself an admin a few times. I mean, usually when I did that, I had a clarifier attached that said that I'm not really a full admin, but still, that's what the problem is here? That just sounds really petty, I mean I called myself the technically wrong thing a few times, so what?

And the way you put "censoring and banning people" implies that I was doing that as an admin, and that I was actually even doing that at all, when you know full well that I wasn't doing anything as a spambuster that the other admins were having problems with. I was working with you then, you know. If you think I was abusing my power as a spambuster, then you're outright lying, because I specifically only took action on extremely clear violations of the ToS, or when those 4chan trolls came in and spammed porn. I was doing that specifically so that I wouldn't piss anyone off, just ask Emma.

2

GNU_PONUT wrote (edited )

your ML friends to ragequit

while shiningwing is an ML, I don't think any of us consider ourselves to be and I've been vocal against the ML situation in the past

I was trying to protect raddle

seems ironic tbh because you've destroyed it

Spending weeks figuring out how to remove shining is a poor excuse for refusing to work with her on trying to make raddle safer, from what we realise were now your accounts, which weren't just going wild over the ML situation.

Edit: I was even vocal against shining in almost every single proposal back then, I didn't however have to insult her or even endanger our friendship

1

attentionwhore wrote

"From now on, you ban people for 'liberalism' (anarchism), and you try to make rules to ban disagreement" oh boy, sure good I'm in the community where everybody's viewpoint is respected, ri.. right, guys?

13

unlearning wrote

this is really getting confusing. I honestly thouht that that this small community really respects others perspective. But using alt ids to enage, troll or otherwise is pure evil. moreover some people declaring that they will be using multiple atl ids to do this and that? for what. IDK if i would really like to participate in serious discussions from now on? may be just one person doin all the pros and cons for me and having a jerk smirk.

1

jadedctrl wrote

I get it, but I really think it's over. /u/ziq regrets what he's done and just wants to remedy it. I think he's acting in good faith.

8

unlearning wrote

I really appreciate ziq for realising and apologising not only to the persons hurt by his actions but to the whole community. But I can't understand other users being so cool about it. Posting with multiple alt ids to get more traction IMO was okay but but using it to hurt people for fun is not (especially when the admins were involved and they seriously intend to engage more people). But i hope its past now and the community will learn from it and grow strong.

3

SouthsideGrackles wrote

I really don't see why people are so quick to believe someone who went to that level of bizarre deceit and manipulation. Ziq has demonstrated a willingness to lie in a grand and shameless way, and people seem so eager to believe their story and promises. It is very strange to me.

Personally I think I'm done with raddle unless/until it starts getting ran with something like konsent like someone proposed in this thread.

4

mofongo wrote (edited )

In my case is because the most of the hurted party (GNU_Ponut, No-defun-allowed, Shiningwing, Emma) have forgiven ziq and decided this course of action to make amends. As someone in the perifery to all this, I can do nothing but accept it.

  1. I know Shiningwing has not forgiven ziq.
  2. If I'm missing someone please let me know.
-1

SouthsideGrackles wrote

I think people are also missing that emma shoulr probably be seen as less trustworthy as well since they were willing to lie and protect ziq while they watched ziq fuck with and cause pain to people (such as shiningwing who doesn't seem to have forgiven them actually).

-1

attentionwhore wrote

no, this is so dumb think about what you are saying. If this "community" really respected all view-points, then a guy takin a piss at any ideology should not warrant someone running crying away fucking deleting accounts

"may be just one person doin all the pros and cons for me and having a jerk smirk." are you seriosuly this naive, the fuck you think is happening on all other forums? you think all accounts are unique, you think none is commenting just for the fuck of it???

12

untitled wrote

ziq, thanks for coming clean. self-responsibility is a big deal, so i'm glad you've done it. as long as you can do that, then i'm not worried. not taking responsibility for oneself has become the norm for society it seems, it's refreshing to see you take the opposite route.

that said, stepping down as admin.....i for one don't care if you do or don't. i just don't, not sure why. if people are mad, that's expected (it's deceptive after all), but i get the intentions and things get out of hand some times. you're only human. people should be be just as willing to accept an apology as you were in bringing this to the table. that took guts and integrity.

as an aside, i didn't know shit about postciv until i got here, and i'm finding myself more and more leaning that route (i may have always been, just didn't know it). i'd love to hear more from you about that, so tell us what you really think, you don't need an alt to do that. from what i've seen, raddle seems to be able to handle differences of opinions pretty well.

11

DaisyDisaster wrote

It must have been hard to come out about this, but I'm glad it's happening in a constructive way. I do hope you stay and feel free enough to express your viewpoints as yours without alts.

11

leftous wrote

Honestly I was very surprised and disappointed when I heard about this within the past 24 hours. I understand why you had to do it at first as you were in a tough position trying to build the community. However, unnecessarily creating drama was very toxic, especially when people were being unfairly attacked and many of us were stressed trying to diffuse the situation.

Overall though, I am glad things are out in the open now and we can move past this. I still think you're a great admin with a lot of integrity who would not abuse the administrative power the community trusts in you. That's why I find this situation very unfortunate.

I hope that the community can forgive you including those that left in emma, no_fun, gnu, Shining, and others. I forgive you, and I'd eventually want to see you back as admin if they can all do so as well.

11

Belsima wrote

if you decide you don't want me posting here any more, then that's fine too

I think you should certainly keep posting; you seem like a fine member of the community and a fine person, just not a fine staff member. IMO, this clearly demonstrates why we need a recall and election system for admins and such, as one with less integrity than yourself could do similar then refuse to step down.

11

Fossidarity wrote

2

ziq wrote (edited )

yie, shadowresidue, communistfox, punk_kropotkin, will edit if I think of others.

most were just used to post news articles. I would post maybe 50 a day, so I used to switch between 3-4 accounts so the front page wasn't all ziq. Also, a lot of the askraddles were posted by me.

10

dellitsni wrote (edited )

Hey ziq, thank you for coming clean and being transparent. Yeah, you fucked up, but i have to respect the way you, emma and t_w are handling things. I hope you'll stay. I think the others expressed what i feel about all this pretty well, so i have nothing more to say on that matter.

To the community: i think this is a good time to consider alternate decision making and administration paradigms. Surrealbytes, iodbh and i have been working pretty hard on Konsent lately, and it's made it clear to me how viable this system actually is. I propose that Raddle be community-run using Konsent once it's in an acceptable state.

8

leftous wrote

100% on board with this.

It would be cool to have an admin bot that is remote controlled by Konsent

3

dellitsni wrote

That would be cool. It'll be a little strange to implement since there is no API for Raddle, and we want to keep Konsent universal and hardcoded for Raddle, but I have a few ideas that i think would work.

4

leftous wrote

If konsent adds webhooks, any decisions made could be posted to a user-defined server. From that server, we can run a bot that recieves and performs those actions.

2

dellitsni wrote

I was thinking something along those lines yeah. Depends on the skills of the other devs and what they've done before, I'll open an issue on Github tommorow, or maybe make a new post in /f/Konsent.

4

Tequila_Wolf wrote

This sounds exciting, I'm looking forward to hearing more about what it can do and how it would work.

2

dellitsni wrote

That's good, really happy to hear there's a mindset for it! We'll just continue working on it, I'll post updates now and then in /f/Konsent.

10

MaxStirner wrote

Just commenting to say I hope you stick around ziq. You seem like a cool person.

9

DissidentRage wrote

Thank you for apologizing for this. I personally didn't really have an emotional horse in the race, so to speak, in many of the instances you mentioned, but I can see how that was problematic.

I do have a positive thing to say about you: your creation of u/BigGeorge was a real boon to f/SorosPSAs, even if it doesn't really get much use. I created that subforum in a fleeting moment of creativity, but the humorous persona you created for it took it to another level. It inspired me to start working on a blogging platform that would be used to create a full on parody site.

I think as your primary persona u/ziq you've admirably served as a good administrator, curbing fascists and handling disputes democratically. I do agree that with your multiple accounts and the drama unfolded from them it probably is best that you step down, but I think from a surface observation you provided a good grounding for future staff. I do hope you'll remain with us as an active participant now that you have a fuller understanding of what not to do.

8

squat wrote (edited )

Hey... for what it's worth, this is a brand new account, never posted here before, I'm a complete outsider to this situation. I only came here because I saw this comment on Reddit and it reminded me of this Raddle thing that I'd heard about before so I went over to check it out and started reading this thread.

I don't (and probably can't) have an opinion about whether ziq should be forgiven or whatever. I don't know them or any of the other people affected; I wasn't around then and none of this stuff affected me. (I can say though that despite not knowing her, I do have a lot of respect for emma's technical accomplishments in creating Postmill, so I do feel saddened that she was hurt in all of this.)

Anyway, I have been involved in meatspace left-wing/anarchist spaces for nearly a decade. And obviously with that I've witnessed my fair share of drama and community turmoil, and a lot of this sounds really familiar. It always deeply saddens me when communities like these are torn apart because of bullshit and I always feel compelled to try to get involved and try to salvage things and help people understand each other's points of view and to stop people from hurting each other even more. And it's a really delicate balance between the forces at play, even just within myself: because obviously, when you're somebody who wants to create an anarchist society, you need to try to see the best in everyone and believe that people can and do change for the better, while at the same time having a degree of understanding and forgiveness for people who act seemingly in bad faith, but obviously from a place of understandable hurtness (but there also must be limit to this). But as anarchist, you also have a strong sense of injustice, and sometimes you have no choice but to pick a side and righteously fight for justice on their behalf. And when everyone has this sense of righteousness about them (which they often do if they're anarchists), it can be a complete clusterfuck. Anyway, people here probably understand all of that already.

How does that apply to this situation? Just from reading ziq's post and the rest of this thread, there's a few things I'm noticing.

The standard of discussion in this thread is actually really high, given the circumstances. This seems like something that has hurt a lot of people, and usually people who are hurt, are, well, hurt, and often a discussion full of people who have been hurt by each other is not the most polite. But I'm seeing very little shitslinging. But maybe that's just because all the people who have been hurt have already left.

Without making any moral judgement about it, it seems that a lot of people have left directly or indirectly because of all this stuff. Is there anything we can do to get them back? Like, I used to spend a lot of time arguing with (ostensibly) comrades on the Internet, and it's very emotionally draining. I've mostly "retired" from doing that just for the sake of my mental health. To think that there was so many unnecessary arguments on this site that sucked people in who were acting in good faith, I can see how that would cause a lot of damage and I find it completely unsurprising that many people would have left. Not to mention the second-order "toxicity" that that would create and the effects that would have. (For example, the social centre in my city, without which I would never have made the friends I have today, has been closed since 2014 because interpersonal bullshit tore it apart, and the whole scene has been slowly dying ever since.)

The only thing that gives me some hope or optimism is this: it sounds like 90% of the bullshit was actually just one person, and now they've openly admitted that and seemingly will stop in the future. I wish all the conflicts I've been witnessed could be traced to a single individual's bad faith. I've seen conflicts where I'm sure certain individuals are acting in bad faith, but I've never been able to "prove" it, and it creates a lot of difficultly, because obviously some people believe them and some people don't, and then some people are "bad" for not believing them and so on. I know that if I was one of the people who left in the middle of all that toxicity and bullshit, I would feel vindicated knowing that the person I was arguing against was actually doing so in bad faith, and that all the people who appeared to be on their side actually weren't. I would actually find it really validating to find that out. I could erase all the self-doubt that those arguments caused me. I would probably give the community a second chance if I thought that wouldn't happen again.

What am I saying? I don't know any of the people involved. But if anybody does, do you think they should be contacted with this new information, and be invited back? It sounds like a lot of them were "tankies", and yeah, like, maybe tankies are weird, but I have a lot of respect for some of the individual tankies I know in real life, there are definitely things towards which we can work together. I don't know, it kinds of warms my heart to think that this was (at least at one point) a community where all sorts leftists (and "post"-leftists) recognised they had a common enemy (Reddit and its closed-sourceness and fascism-enabling and whatnot), put aside their differences to come together to create a valuable alternative to that. It saddens me to think that infighting and bullshit damaged that, but if, as it now seems, the "root" cause of that has been identified and rectified, then it gives me hope that maybe we could go back to being that community.

2

leftous wrote

Hey, thanks for the post. More people should read it because it is enlightening and wise.

7

Dumai wrote

thank you for coming clean about this and thank you for trying to account for what you did. please don't rope us along like that ever again because more often than not i was on defasher's side in this whole mess and now i feel like a piece of shit for blaming the wrong people. but i'm glad you've apologised and i'm glad you're trying to fix this. i still value what you contribute to this site and i still agree with you most of the time!

7

mofongo wrote

Damn, I knew some of them were you, but not that many. Much less Chomskyist. Anyways, do what you feel is best and what's important to you. I would love to see you again as admin some time in the future.

On another note, I would like Emma to train someone as substitute webmaster as a preventive measure.

6

glokaya_kuzdra wrote

I am new here. It's weird for so much of your personal shit to be aired so publicly.

That said, it makes sense of emma's response to me when I wanted to help with the site, so maybe this is just part of small internet communities.

I would argue admins should not be permanent - like any position of power, I think it should be alternated within the community. As you grow, I don't understand why you couldn't work as an admin again in the future, for a short stint - like anyone else. If your behavior continues to be toxic, though, it seems like the community would need to respond some way. It seems so far that has meant leaving.

Your behaviors seem really odd (replying to yourself, creating fake conversations, etc.). I don't want to judge such behavior on its own, it's really only worth judging because it negatively impacted your friends and this community.

Thanks for coming clean and being honest. Good luck working on yourself!

6

braketheboxes wrote

Life is too short for drama. I hope you stick around.

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

-- The Buddha

6

SouthsideGrackles wrote

When I said in the past that raddle was a great idea being done by shitty people, this sort of behavior was what I was talking about.

I'm glad you admitted to it and took responsibility, I just hope you don't once again convince yourself in the future that you're justified in doing that sort of toxic behavior yet again.

5

jadedctrl wrote

You made this place toxic for a while, but you also helped make it great in the first place. You're still a good and well-meaning member of the community. I for one hope you remain a member of raddle.

5

therealmidnite wrote

I have no idea where people get the energy from to keep a menagerie of alts like that running... one is exhausting enough (this is my first time posting either here or on reddit in about a week's time, and I've honestly been loving the peace so far).

3

drh1138 wrote

Yes, well if you're familiar with ziq/defasher/other-raddle-alts/KropotkinZombie/nowaydaddioh/brocialistslaughter/dielibeals/eeplox and their antics on reddit, they're, uhm, a "special" sort with boundless time and energy.

2

ziq wrote (edited )

I just really wanted the place to take off. And, wanted to talk back to people that were attacking me or my politics (or voicing authoritarian viewpoints) without dragging raddle down. When an admin insults someone, it's a much bigger deal that if some rando does it, and it leads to people quitting the site in rage.

1

GNU_PONUT wrote

why were you insulting people in the first place?

1

ziq wrote (edited )

Because I didn't like you or your politics (specifically your colonialist remarks about invading my country and taking our resources by force for your transhumanist utopia). I'm trying not to be an asshole any more when I'm offended.

1

GNU_PONUT wrote

I wasn't the first person to cross your path, you were the one who straw manned the whole colonialism thing just so you could turn round and out me because I wasn't post civ like you

2

Tequila_Wolf wrote

I was there for that, you were being a colonialist (and this is regardless of whether someone has an anticiv viewpoint or not), I'm surprised you're denying it now since you seemed to accept it then. I'm kinda bummed that you're saying this since up until now I'd imagined that you could be working in good faith.

0

GNU_PONUT wrote (edited )

right, what i said was colonialist but it had to be, there was no other answer in the hypothetical scenario that ziq gave me unless i were to say actually we should all be anti-civ, it was completely silly.

not sure what you're bummed about tbh?

ziq is trying to claw back still at some of this petty shit to cover their ass for the big picture

i don't even see how this is relevant to what's happened

1

Dumai wrote

right, what i said was colonialist but it had to be

it's quite possible to discuss these things without being racist

1

GNU_PONUT wrote

racist? wtf

1

Dumai wrote

do i really need to explain to you why colonial politics are racist, are we getting this far back to basics

i feel bad because this almost feels like derailing but seriously

5

HorrorPaleontologist wrote

Well, this doesn't inspire much confidence in the community. I know I'm new, I don't interact much, so it doesn't matter what I think. Others have made several points, some have uncovered the actual events in past posts (not sugar-coated as described), some have said great things about forgiveness.

But this is not something the community needed, and it's sad that one person got to decide over everyone else.

And since I don't know anyone here, am I to think everyone is ziq? That would be my typical luck...

3

zombie_berkman wrote

Sudo leaving was one of the best things to happen here. But yea this whole thing is pretty fucked

1

ziqfuq wrote (edited )

and it led to a communist user (really, the only regular contributor other than me) quitting the site in anger because "fucking filthy primmie scum" I think were the words they used.

So you weren't respectwomen? whoah: my mind=blown

-2

attentionwhore wrote (edited )

Why are you apologizing? WTF? This is nothing new damn it, all forums(excuse me, "communities") have this kind of behavior. What is all this bullshittery with the apologies, especially if you're afraid of being doxxed. i liked it when the alts were there, i was here 4 shits and giggles.

You fucked your own balls with this public apology, now all the others that a butthurt will have a much easier time collecting info on you. This entire shit is just a big ass faceslap. "Uhh w're glad you say sorry", "Uuh you did some fucked up shit", fucking kill yourselves. ziq, I admire you, you dun good.

2

ziq wrote

I've already been doxxed repeatedly. I know the risks I've taken by throwing away my privacy like this. I apologized because it was the right thing to do and because my friend emma was hurting because of my actions.

-1

attentionwhore wrote (edited )

Why even tell emma about this when you began? I don't get it.

Sent a pm, plz read. I'm desperate for attention LOL

1

ziq wrote (edited )

My nihilist anarchism isn't compatible with the collectivist politics of most people here. When I'm talking to friends like emma (a Marxist), I forget that; and just be honest about what I'm doing.

Emma kept her true feelings about it to herself until recently, and when she told me how she really felt, I stopped with the nihilist stuff because of it (after a brief ego trip). I also assumed she could tell the accounts were mine because in the early days of the site she could see the IP addresses if she wanted to. I wouldn't lie to a friend anyway.

2

SouthsideGrackles wrote

" I wouldn't lie to a friend anyway."

So all the people here talking about how they saw you as a friend, what you're saying is that they were foolish to do so since you, in lying to them, didn't see them as such. You were/are just using their positive feelings towards you as a tool to manipulate and be abusive towards people with impunity.

-1

ziq wrote

I don't troll my friends. I have no interest in answering to you. You've been badmouthing me and raddle for months. Fuck you :)

2

SouthsideGrackles wrote (edited )

I haven't been badmouthing raddle for months. I said it was a great idea being done by shitty people. And I was slightly wrong -- it wasn't shitty people, it was just one shitty person pretending to be multiple people.

And when I said that you used three or four different accounts to attack me and , ironically , to accuse me of being someone else:

https://raddle.me/f/AskRaddle/21954/comment/27513

some of those comments in there are pretty disturbingly hilarious in hindsight. Like when you said you shouldn't be expected to answer for defasher. That's fucking brilliant. Or you telling me to be honest, when you were the one who was indeed shamelessly lying and engaging in misinformation campaigns. Or when defasher says they had nothing to do with making raddle. Or when another account chimed in to back up your baseless accusations. Or when another account chimed in to say they hated when someone took a random persons posts as evidence against a site, -- but it wasn't a random person's post, it was an alt of the site's creator.

-1

attentionwhore wrote

yes yes yes, make it sound like he is being a sociopath, be mildly fucking suggestive about it by listing the most edgy comparison ever. please continue, because in the rare case he is one, he will either not care or be proud, and hopefully continue delivering top quality content

-1

attentionwhore wrote

"My nihilist anarchism isn't compatible with the collectivist politics of most people here. When I'm talking to friends like emma (a Marxist), I forget that; and just be honest about what I'm doing." strange how this beings to sound like people get offended by others views, and are maybe not equally respected. "I forget that; and just be honest about what I'm doing." so when you are not guardian yourself, watching out for what people might think, then you are honest? jeez, surely this is the most respecting setting ever heard of

-3

eeek wrote

Anyone else remember when karlmarx strolled over to the fempire to stir up shit?

This behavior is toxic for any community. I'd prefer if you were no longer part of this site.

7

ziq wrote

No? I just linked to a thread made here by sudo (about their community) and tried to convince them to merge with us. I wasn't doing anything malicious and they eventually adopted postmill because of that introduction I made.

1

eeek wrote

Well, I'd love to provide a link to the post so that people could decide for themselves, but due to the site relocation I think we're out of luck. If you have an archive link, please post it.

Some people on fempire already knew about raddle. It stands out as yet another red flag that you're taking credit for their decision to use postmill for the new site.

-5

ConnieCommie wrote

Hi ziq!

Please reconsider why you're basically eco-fash and why you're a worm.

-8

wooowdude wrote

Hey emma, glad you're the webmaster as that wasn't clear to me! If you're reading this, can you please have a look at my suggestion here https://raddle.me/f/meta/25562/raddle-me-should-ameliorate-its-mozilla-observatory-score-by for ameliorating raddle's security? I can help with that if you have any problems, cheers!