Testimony of Cleo Gates in the
Trial of Arlo Looking Cloud
February, 2004

THE COURT: Call your next witness then.

MR. MANDEL: United States would call Cleo Gates,

Your Honor.


called as a witness, being first duly sworn, testified and

said as follows:


Q. State your name, please?

A. Cleo Gates.

Q. Where do you live?

A. I live in Manderson, South Dakota.

Q. What do you do down there?

A. I work at the school, I am the payroll accountant.

Q. How long have you been working there?

A. About eight years.

Q. You lived on the Pine Ridge Reservation all your life?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Back in 1975 where were you living?

A. Allen, South Dakota.

Q. Who were you living with at that time?

A. With my husband.

Q. Who was that?

A. Dick Marshal.

Q. How long had the two of you been married?

A. Oh, geez. Probably about six years then.

Q. How long did you remain married?

A. We remained married about four years after that.

Q. Were you living in the housing area there in Allen?

A. Yes, we were.

Q. Was anybody else living in the house with you at that time?

A. Our children.

Q. How many kids did you have back then?

A. Two.

Q. How old?

A. I think eight and five. Eight or nine, something like that.

Q. Was that a period of time when Dick got in to some trouble?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you just tell us briefly what kind of trouble he got

involved in at that time?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, relevance and 403, Your

Honor, and can we approach?

THE COURT: You may.

(Bench Conference).

MR. RENSCH: He is going to get in to some matters

where Dick Marshal was charged with murder as result of a

shooting that occurred in the Scenic bar. He defended the

case on the theory of self defense. Our position referring in

any way to the fact that her husband was charged with a murder

would be more prejudicial than probative, and doesn't have any

place, and would make it appear as though this defendant is

going over to a person's house who later was convicted of

murder. From that standpoint it is very prejudicial, I object

to it.

THE COURT: What's the relevance, if that is what

you are going in to?

MR. MANDEL: Probably not going to much detail on it

other than that it happened in the same time period, that that

is ultimately why they got divorced, just background.

Frankly, I am not going into the details of the shooting or his --

THE COURT: What does the shooting have to do with anything?

MR. MANDEL: I said I don't intend to go in to anything.

THE COURT: Without going in to it then it is a moot issue.

MR. RENSCH: I am afraid the witness will slip and

say something about that. The way the questions are being

broadly framed she could do that. If the prosecutor could

instruct her not to bring that up, I would appreciate it, and

I would request it.

THE COURT: I think you can frame the questions so

you don't get in to it, alright.


(End Bench Conference).


Q. I want to draw your attention to early December to mid

December of 1975. Were you and Dick both together at home at

that time?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember a night when some people came to your house?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Particularly do you remember a night when Anna Mae

Aquash arrived at your house?

A. Yes, they told me that the girl was Anna Mae Aquash.

Q. Prior to that time you didn't know her?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Can you tell us first of all who arrived at your house

and when they arrived?

A. I think it was before midnight, it was after 11:00, we

had gone to bed, and it was Theda Clark, Arlo, and John Boy is

what I knew them by.

Q. Was Theda somebody you had known for a long time?

A. I had known Theda like probably three or four years

before that.

Q. What about John Boy?

A. I knew him in passing. I had seen him at different

activities, pow-wow's or whatever, and that's how I knew him.

Q. Do you recognize him seated here in the courtroom today

A. Oh, geez. I don't know, he was a young, really young at the time.

Q. Anyhow, and what about John Boy, how did you know him?

A. I thought you asked me already about John Boy.

Q. I am sorry, Arlo you said?

A. I knew Arlo through my brother. My brother Joe Morgan.

I knew Arlo was from Wounded Knee, about nine miles from where

I live, but I didn't know him growing up, I just knew him from

my brother Joe.

Q. And if I misspoke before, let me ask you, do you

recognize Arlo seated here in the courtroom today?

A. That's Arlo. I recognize Arlo.

Q. Can you tell us where he is seated and what he is wearing?

A. Arlo is seated right there.

MR. MANDEL: I ask the record reflect the witness

pointed to the defendant.

THE COURT: It may.


Q. When they came over what took place?

A. They came in and they brought the girl in, and she sat

on the chair in the living room, and they went into the

bedroom with my husband.

Q. They meaning who?

A. Arlo, John and Theda.

Q. Anna Mae stayed out with you?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Can you tell us anything about what you noticed about

her at that time?

A. Well, she was real quiet. I asked her if she wanted

coffee, because we, there was food and I thought maybe she

might be hungry. She had a cup of coffee I think, and she

might have ate a donut and that was it, and she didn't offer

any conversation. Actually I didn't know her, so I wasn't

really sure what to say to her myself.

Q. Did you notice what she was wearing?

A. It was cold out and she had a jacket on and I would say

it was like a knee length, it was a light colored jacket, but

I didn't notice the clothing that she was wearing.

Q. I am going to show you what's been marked Exhibit 4 and

ask you to take a look at that. Are you able to recognize any

of her clothing in that photograph?

A. No, I don't.

Q. You just don't recall?

A. She doesn't have the jacket on. It was like a warm

jacket that she had on, a heavy jacket.

Q. Was there some request made of you and Dick that evening

by these people?

A. Well, they came in and they went, they came out of the

bedroom and called me in the kitchen and he said they want us

to keep her here.

Q. Who said that?

A. Dick. I said what for? I don't know, just keep her

here. And I said no.

Q. You refused to allow them to do that?

A. Right.

Q. How come?

A. Because I had, this was Anna Mae, and I had heard just

different things going on on the reservation, and I didn't

want to be any part of it.

Q. What kind of different things were you aware of?

A. Well, people were saying that Anna Mae was an informer.

I never knew her myself, so I didn't, wasn't sure. So I just

told Dick no, I said I don't think we should.

Q. Were you and Dick both AIM members at the time?

A. Yes, we were.

Q. What happened when you refused to keep her there?

A. Dick went back and told them and they left. They

weren't there very long.

Q. About how long altogether?

A. I would say maybe a half hour maybe.

Q. They say anything about where they were going?

A. No, they didn't, not to me.

MR. MANDEL: No further questions. Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may cross examine.


Q. Morning, Ma'am.

A. Good morning.

Q. You knew Theda before that date, did you not?

A. Yeah, I knew Theda, who she was.

Q. I think you testified at your grand jury she was kind of pushy?

A. Theda was that type of person.

Q. How so?

A. They didn't want me to go in the bedroom with them, they

just took Dick.

Q. I am talking how is she a pushy person?

A. Just takes control of the situation.

Q. About that time how old did she appear to be, thirties,

forties, fifties?

A. Probably forties, fifties. Close to fifty maybe.

Q. She was older than the others that were with her?

A. Right, much older.

Q. Was there a phone at your residence in '75?

A. Yes, we had a phone.

Q. Did Ms. Pictou-Aquash ask to use your phone?

A. No, she didn't.

Q. If she would have asked, would you have let her?

A. I think I would have.

Q. So there was a period of time when you were out in your

living room or kitchen area alone with Ms. Pictou-Aquash?

A. Right.

Q. About how long would you say that was?

A. Probably five minutes maybe.

Q. Cars outside the house?

A. You know, I didn't look out.

Q. Did you folks have a car then?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Did the people who came in give you any indication that

they had walked?

A. No, they didn't.

Q. And no one was standing guard over Ms. Pictou-Aquash as

she was with you?

A. No, they weren't.

Q. You never dreamed that when she left that house anything

bad would happen to her, did you?

A. No, I didn't, sir.

Q. If you would have thought something bad was going to

happen, would you have tried to help her?

A. I think I would have.

MR. RENSCH: Thank you.


Q. You said you weren't allowed to go back in the bedroom

when they were there?

A. Well, they said stay out here, they took Dick back there.

Q. Do you know, did your husband Dick give them anything

when they were back in that bedroom?

A. I don't think he did.

Q. Did he keep any guns in that bedroom?

A. No. At the time he had, he had gotten in trouble and

wasn't allowed to have any kind of guns. He was on release

before his trial.

MR. RENSCH: Okay -- well --


Q. Had he had guns in the past?

A. We had a rifle, hunting rifles, but he had taken

everything over to his dad's, mother and dad's place.

MR. MANDEL: Nothing further, Your Honor.

MR. RENSCH: No questions.

THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down. Now we

will take our morning recess. Remember what I told you

before, don't talk to each other about the case, keep an open

mind until you have heard all of the evidence. We will be in

recess for fifteen minutes.

(Recess at 10:30 until 10:45).

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