As usual, after several paragraphs of this garbage, I could not read any longer.
I was there, bud. In San Francisco, during the 60s and 70s. The Jefferson Airplane’s 4th album, Volunteers, was an attempt by the group to stay in what they had come to believe was relevant to the times, to be political.

They tarnished their art with that nonsense. Their tracks and that album marked the band as followers not leaders and they became less viable in the public’s eye, eventually forcing the group to morph into the Jefferson Starship and then just Starship, with a poppy, bubble-gum-y sound that allowed the group to slog along as a profitable enterprise for a bit longer.

What Kesey said: it is not at all clear what he meant by that cryptic statement, least of all what the author interprets it to be. Kesey used to write for Rolling Stone long after he had retreated to Oregon to raise cows or whatever it was he was doing. Lots of things he said made no sense at all. Some of them made some sense. I can still remember one of his articles talking about some shooter somewhere in America. Kesey said: Just another nut with a gun.

That stuck with me.

But the idea that George Harrison was echoing Kesey is ignorant. Harrison had been studying Eastern religions (of some type; not sure which one(s)), and his lyrics reflect that, and nothing more.

This lunatic writes about things he knows absolutely nothing about and tries to assess one or two words in a song to the entire generation or the entire “movement” back then wanted to tear down the walls all walls.

That is simply preposterous. But here’s a mind riddle for you.

Let’s say that you have the idea that group marriages are great, as the Jefferson Airplane (from a lyric written by David Crosby of Byrds and CSN&Y) sang in the song Triad on their third album.

And then let’s say that people in that generation believed that as well, or were influenced by the art, the song, Triad, and they tried out group marriage.

And let’s say that they found out, in most cases, it doesn’t really work for anyone: the adults, the children, their neighbors, etc.

They tried something that was new and had potential, they thought. You know, like how people grow by trying new things, making mistakes, learning from their mistakes and not doing that thing that they tried ever again?

So, saying that 50 years ago the hippies wanted to tear down the walls is ……meaningless!!

50 years ago, living in a commune with 100 other people was considered cutting edge! And now?

Is this another idiotic piece from one of the idiots who write for TomDispatch?

Yes it is.

The American Reinvestment and Recovery Act and the brain initiative are the worst scams ever perpetrated on the American people. Former U. S. Surgeon General Regina Benjamin Warns: Biochips Hazardous to Your Health: Warning, biochips may cause behavioral changes and high suicide rates. State Attorney Generals are to revoke the licenses of doctors and dentists that implant chips in patients. Chip used illegally for GPS, tracking, organized crime, communication and torture. Virginia state police have been implanting citizens without their knowledge and consent for years and they are dying! Check out William and Mary’s site to see the torture enabled by the biochip and the Active Denial System. See Terrorism and Mental Health by Amin Gadit or A Note on Uberveillance by MG & Katina Michael or Safeguards in a World of Ambient Intelligence by Springer or Mind Control, Microchip Implants and Cybernetics. Check out the audio spotlight by Holosonics. The truth is the biochip works like a sim card. It received pulsed modulated laser beams and millimeter wave which it converts into electromagnetic waves that your brain interprets into digital images and sound. It then takes what your brain sees and hears and converts electromagnetic waves into digital and acoustic waves that a computer translates into audio and video. In other words, it allows law enforcement to see what you see, hear what you hear and communicate directly with your brain.

“Former Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) director and now Google Executive, Regina E. Dugan, has unveiled a super small, ingestible microchip that we can all be expected to swallow by 2017. “A means of authentication,” she calls it, also called an electronic tattoo, which takes NSA spying to whole new levels. She talks of the ‘mechanical mismatch problem between machines and humans,’ and specifically targets 10 – 20 year olds in her rant about the wonderful qualities of this new technology that can stretch in the human body and still be functional. Hailed as a ‘critical shift for research and medicine,’ these biochips would not only allow full access to insurance companies and government agencies to our pharmaceutical med-taking compliancy (or lack thereof), but also a host of other aspects of our lives which are truly none of their business, and certainly an extension of the removal of our freedoms and rights.” Google News

The ARRA authorizes payments to the states in an effort to encourage Medicaid Providers to adopt and use “certified EHR technology” aka biochips. ARRA will match Medicaid $5 for every $1 a state provides. Hospitals are paid $2 million to create “crisis stabilization wards” (Gitmo’s) where state police torture people – even unto death. They stopped my heart 90 times in 6 hours. Virginia Beach EMT’s were called to the scene.
Mary E. Schloendorff, v. The Society of New York Hospital 105 N. E. 92, 93 (N. Y. 1914) Justice Cardozo states, “every human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body; and a surgeon who performs an operation without his patient’s consent, commits an assault, for which he is liable in damages. (Pratt v Davis, 224 Ill. 300; Mohr v Williams, 95 Minn. 261.)

This case precedent requires police to falsely arrest you or kidnap you and call you a mental health patient in order to force the implant on you. You can also be forced to have a biochip if you have an infectious disease – like Eboli or Aids. Coalition of Justice vs the City of Hampton, VA settled a case out of court for $500,000 and removal of the biochip. Torture is punishable by $1,000 per day up to $2 million; Medical battery is worth $2.05 million.

They told my family it was the brain initiative. I checked with the oversight board, and it is not! Mark Warner told me it was research with the Active Denial System by the College of William and Mary, the USAF, and state and local law enforcement. It is called IBEX and it is excruciating.

Glad you checked out the link, Geo.

I felt just the same as Ken Loach, after hearing Davids testimony.

As I told RobinG, I had to listen to it, several times over, to actually try to absorb what I was hearing.

I do think Roger Waters would be an excellent addition to your roster.

I wonder how aware our President is, of these recent manifestations of (what could only be described as) a “Genocidal” Judeo-Fascist Supremacism creeping over and into what was once, perhaps, a more tolerant democratic Israel in search of a just resolution to its conflicts ?

I wonder how” aware” our Congress and our State Department is also ?

Don’t you?

.

The “link” might also supply you with an additional ” list” of persons who would likely be willing to speak at your “million man march” on D.C.

Thanks for sharing, Alexander. I wasn’t aware of the Russell Tribunal 2014.

Two comments about the video:

1. I liked the reaction of one of the members of the panel, Ken Loach, I believe, who @29:30 says:

I think we’re all deeply shocked by what you showed us. And I just want to say in passing, we don’t see this side of Israel in our reporting, we don’t see it on our televisions. And it is very interesting that this is really kept quite private within Israel.

2. As for potential speakers, I definitely would invite Roger Waters to the mass rally. He seems like a man with tremendous compassion, has an excellent command of the English language, and, as a member of a popular rock band (Pink Floyd), he would be a popular draw.

Geo,

Take a look at the comment(#145) I sent to RobinG.

The testimony given by David Sheen, that I refer to, might well be worth your time, too.

The “link” might also supply you with an additional ” list” of persons who would likely be willing to speak at your “million man march” on D.C.

Check it out.

If you haven’t had a chance…..take a look at the testimony given by “David Sheen, Russell Tribunal 2014″ on You tube , It seems to depict, pretty fairly, what is going on inside Israeli society.
I had to watch it several times….just to try and absorb the level of ” hate”,” terroristic extremism” and” fascistic supremacism” emanating from within the very “centers” of Israels current political and religious power structures.

It seem shocking to me, given the integrity of Mr Sheens’ testimony, and what the United States is “supposed to” stand for, that “any” American representative in Congress would stand for Mr Netanyahu ( in his most recent oratory for war) even once, let alone thirty five times….absolutely shocking!

There is something terribly , terribly wrong.

“David Sheen, Russell Tribunal 2014″ Youtube.

Check it out ,RobinG ,and let me know what you think.

If questioning these contradictions impugns the high moral character the State of Israel claims for itself….why is that my fault ?

So who said it was your fault? I was referring to your premise that the Israelis would massacre a few million Palestinians to prevent any challenge to their Jewish majority state. I’d say that was a pretty strong indictment of Israeli character.

Whatever statements I have made which would evince you of my “low” opinion of Israeli “character”, I wish I could argue it the other way. RobinG.

But perhaps its finding out what facts are what…that determine how high an opinion one should have of anybody.

If one is taught all throughout school that the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Jews from Nazi Germany constitutes an evil, heinous crime against humanity…which I believe it is.

Then what is one to make of the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians from the state of Israel at the time of its inception ?

What is one to make of it ?

If one is taught all throughout school that the “land grabbing” or “Lebensraum-ing” of territory by the Nazis is also an “evil” crime against humanity, outlawed by civilization.

What is one to make of the “land grabbing ” or “lebensraum-ing” of the Palestinian territories by the state of Israel and its settlement enterprise ?

What is one to make of that ?

It seems to me that two wrongs can never make a right….so if it was wrong to have happened to the Jews…and it was…how can it be “right ” to have happened (and be happening) to the Palestinians?

Pointing out this profound moral contradiction should be essential to establishing behavioral norms that are acceptable to all civilization, not exclusive to some, and irrelevant to others.

If questioning these contradictions impugns the high moral character the State of Israel claims for itself….why is that my fault ?

I did not” create “the moral standards by which states and their behavior should be judged.

The idea of applying them “selectively” undermines the notion of having any moral standards at all. Doesn’t it ?

I like your idea of a private email group, but I would need a little assistance with how to setup my own website… so any tech advice is welcome.

Now explain please, why Pink Revolution?

I came up with that name in a moment of flippancy, when I responded to a comment in another thread:

Two words: people power.

Remember the neocons with their colour revolutions? Well, the US is overdue for its own colour revolution. As a tribute to the neocon’s Trotskyist roots, we should dub it the “pink revolution.”

In that spirit, I invite you to join the Pink Revolution scheduled for the summer of 2020 in DC, A Declaration of Independence from Israel.

So for marketing purposes, I agree that it should be dropped.

Great. Here’s a thought on how you could, temporarily at least, preserve your anonymity. If you make a website, people can use the ‘contact’ function. From there, you can decide if you want to make a private email group, which would facilitate discussion.

There are free website options: many use WordPress. I’ve never done it. Perhaps S2C or someone else here could give you some tech advice, if you need it. (We don’t know your experience, your age, your financial situation – but it’s better than mine if you can travel all the way to DC for a coffee!!!

Now explain please, why Pink Revolution? It’s a revolution all right, but pink has numerous dubious associations. Perhaps a name should have maximum SEO (search engine optimization) for effective marketing.

“A Declaration of Independence from Israel,” is the title of your list of demands….

“Keeping the powder dry” doesn’t sound like active engagement.

A big march and active engagement don’t have to be mutually exclusive. As I’ve indicated before, the regularly scheduled anti-Lobby activities should continue per usual. My only point is if there a desire to organize a mass protest, the likelihood of pulling it off for next year is relatively small, IMHO.

Second, you put too much faith in a big march. In 2003 millions marched (more in Europe than here, of course) but Bush still invaded Iraq.

While it’s true that the big marches in 2003 did not prevent the invasion of Iraq, they made a big statement that despite the optics of the “Coalition of the Willing” the general public of these countries did not support the destruction of Iraq.

The same thing holds true for our “Pink Recolution”… it may not defeat the Lobby the next day but by raising awareness of the general public, the night flower will be forced to come into the light.

I think it’s great you want to do this, Geo, and I’ll help you in any way I can. BTW, as I said on another thread, there will be an AIPAC protest march this year. You should contact these people.

I appreciate your support Robin and I will take your advice and follow-up with the groups you provided me.

And, finally, as I indicated to Alexander, I believe breaking the Lobby’s stranglehold on US foreign policy hinges on 3 things:

1. Raising the awareness of the American people about the role of the Lobby (hence the importance of both regular and a large engagement).

2. Demanding from representatives that all 10 of the demands must be met, nothing less.

3. Making it clear to the Israelis that if they do not reach a mutually agreeable deal within a specified time period, all support – military, financial, diplomatic – will be terminated.

So the game plan is rather straight forward.. that’s the easy part. The hard part is finding the right group of people to implement it.

Geo, I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood your perspective for the next 4 years, but this struck me as a little too cynical: “My recommendation would be to keep the powder dry for a few more years to allow Killery enough time to put the finishing touches to their “remaking the ME” game plan, so having a march sometime in 2020 would have maximum impact.” Not your usual altruism that I’m used to.

“Keeping the powder dry” doesn’t sound like active engagement. Giving Killery time may mean killing another few hundred thousand or more. As far as maximum impact, that’s debatable on 2 scores.
First, you’re assuming Americans might care if some foreign countries are destroyed. Some will care, but since most don’t now unless US boys are killed, and since the wars are increasingly fought by mercenaries, proxies and drones, I don’t foresee any general outrage.
Second, you put too much faith in a big march. In 2003 millions marched (more in Europe than here, of course) but Bush still invaded Iraq.

So, I apologize for my childish un-PC-ness of calling you Canadian. You could be in downtown Damascus and suggest giving the K-Woman time to make things worse, and I would have been just as disappointed.

Phil Giraldi wrote. “Actually I think something like a million (person) march on Washington to protest against the Israel relationship is a good idea and probably worth trying but I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year…”

The obvious implication is that March of 2017 is not too soon. (The less obvious implication is that it is “worth trying” as part of an overall strategy.)

Now that I’ve probably made things worse, maybe Alexander will smooth things over by reminding us of his low opinion of Israeli character. I think it’s great you want to do this, Geo, and I’ll help you in any way I can. BTW, as I said on another thread, there will be an AIPAC protest march this year. You should contact these people. Even among veteran pro-Palestinian campaigners, there is often a surprising lack of knowledge of the Israel Lobby.

http://al-awda.org/

also sponsored by ANSWER

http://www.answercoalition.org/national_march_on_washington_d_c_to_support_palestine

National March on Washington D.C. to Support Palestine
March 20, 2015 at 12pm – 5pm

I think the fear the President, as well as the State Department might have, is what would happen the day after Palestine is recognized as a state ?…

Would ” total war” break out in the West Bank.?

Let’s be clear, under present circumstances – i.e., the tight stranglehold the Lobby has on Congress and WH, the President and the State Department can’t wipe their bottoms without the Lobby’s permission.

Got any ideas for the President between now and November ?

Not sure about November, but here’s how the process of breaking this stranglehold has to unfold:

1. The American people must be convinced that the special relationship is detrimental to their interests (and so the great significance of the march).

2. The people must relentlessly demand from their representatives that all 10 of these demands must be met, nothing less.

3. With the support of the people behind them, US representatives must make clear to the Israelis that if they do not reach a mutually agreeable resolution to the conflict within a fixed timeframe, all support – financial, military, diplomatic – will be terminated.

So it seems, Geo, any solution has its price.

It does indeed, Alexander. And, for the sake of peace, the Israelis must be forced to pay one.

Geo,

Another idea that might have more impact, faster,is to target the next U.N.S.C .session on Israel/Palestine and put together an online petition….signed by 30 million people (.or more)..and send it to the White House…..that might give a little impetus to the POTUS…..to carry the day on Palestinian statehood……I don’t know ?

I think the fear the President, as well as the State Department might have, is what would happen the day after Palestine is recognized as a state ? I think they have thought about that more than you have given them credit for.

Would ” total war” break out in the West Bank.?…would Gaza undergo another devastating “blitzkrieg”….one that doesn’t”stop”this time , until Israel runs out of ordnance ?

Need I remind you that King Bibi’s Israel is, if nothing else, a true “killing machine “….with its finger on the trigger just ready to go.

The United States “desire” for a negotiated solution” is not” just” in deference to the will of the Israel Lobby (that doesn’t want one), but an understanding that absence “a peace deal ” everyone can live with, the amount of killing likely to occur, might reach unconscionable proportions,very fast…like two million dead (mostly Palestinians)inside of three weeks….maybe more.

This level of bloodletting…will overwhelm the” Arab street” with profound indignation, anger and a near unquenchable desire for vengeance….leading to massive upheavals in most of the world.

Things, as bad as they are, could get much, much worse… very rapidly.

So it seems, Geo, any solution has its price.

Got any ideas for the President between now and November ?

I am sure he is all ears.

Again she sees the urgency. I think that is all she meant by it.

I guess Robin is the only one who can tell us what she really meant by it.

As far as your comment:

I think if there was a 300 million man march on Washington…tomorrow…..it will still not have the impact that our President can have

While a march of significant numbers will not have an immediate effect, I believe it would make a significant statement that the game can no longer be played the same way. It will demonstrate that a large segment of the American public are no longer willing to abide by the special relationship and, with the 10 demands we’ll be making, it will provide policy makers a clear indication of the reforms that are required to steer the ship back in the right direction. But for all this to happen, it is imperative that a significant number of people attend the march. That’s why I’m advocating 2020, but if there is a consensus that 2017 is preferable, I’ll still show up.

I see the difference, Geo.

Again she sees the urgency. I think that is all she meant by it.

I think if there was a 300 million man march on Washington…tomorrow…..it will still not have the impact that our President can have….through the powers we have granted him….in acting in a profound way to alter the outcome of this conflict.

I hate to say it, but the President of the United States carries the torch of human justice for all Americans right now…..what he does with it, if anything at all, remains to be seen.

I don’t think RobinG was being disrespectful…..just honest.

So just so we’re clear, if you are saying you’re in agreement with Robin that it makes more sense to schedule the million person march for 2017, while I think it will impact the size of the turnout, I’m ok with that. I don’t have a problem with people suggesting that it should be held sooner than waiting another 4 years, given the urgency of people dying. What I took issue with and still do is saying the following: “Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency.”

See the difference?

Hi Geo,

I don’t think RobinG was being disrespectful…..just honest.

2020 may be the earliest date at which a massive, well coordinated “march” on Washington, could be organized to have a meaningful impact…. and there is no reason ( given that doing something as opposed to nothing is always a better course) not to strive for it.

But by 2020, the Israel/Palestine conflict, which many have argued, is the epicenter of all the conflicts in the middle east, may have resolved itself in the complete dissolution of Palestine.

As a matter of fact, the “ship” of the internationally mandated two state solution, may have already sailed “off the cliff” on the heels of the most recent Neocon” stymying efforts” at the last U.N.Security Council vote on Palestinian statehood in 2012.

Palestine was able to achieve ” non-member observer status” with an overwhelming majority vote of 138 to 9 in the U.N.General Assembly, but unable to cross over the Rubicon into statehood, due to the “mysterious” 9-8 vote (against) in the U.N.S.C.

It will be fascinating to see, if the vote comes up again in the Security Council before President Obama has completed his term, whether the US will “abstain” from the veto, and allow true Palestinian “statehood” to enter into existence.

This would have the most profound impact on” Greater” Israels illegal settlement enterprise, since much of it has underpinned its expansion , and the argument for it, on the grounds that there is “no” Palestine ….and never will be.

Whatever the outcome, it may well be that the United States, in allowing its stewardship to have been commandeered by the Neocons, will collapse from ” sheer” insolvency, having expended too much money that it doesn’t have…fighting wars of aggression , on behalf of Israel , against countries that never attacked us.

Protecting Israel from” extermination”, may be grounds for many in the US to take an aggressive posture towards Israels “enemies”. Protecting Israels desire to “exterminate” Palestine, on the other hand, should never be (and never have become) one of them.

Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency.

Look, Robin, how do I put this delicately, I’m well aware of the urgency… that’s why I come here and try to convince others that something must be done. I don’t believe I suggested anywhere that this event such preclude other preliminary events. By all means, these events should continue to take place. My suggestion is that the optimal timing for a million person march on DC would be in 2020, and I still stand by that. That’s it. And just because I reside north of the border doesn’t mean that I value human life any less than those that reside south of the 49th parallel.

If we’re going to have any success in organizing this event, we’re going to have to be a little more respectful to one another… wouldn’t you agree?

Geo, it may take until 2020 to prepare a million people, but part of that preparation is having preliminary events. I’m with S2C on this. Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency. Enlightening the general public needs outreach, diplomacy, psychology. It’s a project. And while S2C is right that you can’t win by street actions, they have their place.

Put your thinking cap on. How about some sort of cyber-conference this fall?

Brainstorming also means looking around to see what’s going on, what you can build on. The Israel Lobby conference people – a good mix of conservatives and progressives (Phil has presented there) – have done tremendous work. This year, they moved up their day of seminars from April to March 18, to coincide with the AIPAC conference. This is the 3rd annual conference. (The first one was filmed and archived by CSPAN. The second, not. They probably got the word from Zion.)

ISRAEL’S INFLUENCE: Good or Bad for America?

http://www.israelsinfluence.org/

Washington, DC – March 18, 2016 at the National Press Club

Further to the appropriate timing for this event, here’s my response to RobinG on another thread:

RobinG: If you want a million people in 2020, a lot more folks have to wake up to the Israel Lobby between now and then.

geokat62: You’re right, of course, Robin. That’s why I’m suggesting 2020. I think the Lobby will do the heavy lifting for us during the intervening years. Just watch how enthusiastically Killary will implement the final chapters of their “remaking the ME” game plan. The evidence will be so overwhelming that even Avery and annamarina will have to admit the neocons/Israel firsters bear primary responsibility. Ironically, time and The Lobby are on our side.

Another list to start: people who should speak at this important event.

I like most of your recommendations, S2C. I’m a little skeptical of the one year timeframe for two reasons that are related to ensuring the greatest turnout possible:

1) sufficient time to organize such an event

2) knowing that under a new administration things will deteriorate even further, such that more Americans will be convinced that something must be done

As for a speakers list, here are my preliminary recommendations:

Phillip Giraldi of CNI
Alison Weir of CNI
Congressman Paul Findley of CNI
Profs. Mearsheimer & Walt
Phillip Weiss of Mondoweiss
Justin Raimondo of Antiwar.com
Sibel Edmonds of Boiling Frogs
Ray McGovern, former CIA Analyst
Robert Parry of Consortium News

I”m sure others will kindly point out some key people I’ve left out.

Thanks for the list — and the coffee offer — geokat62, and for the encouragement, Phil. “Feisty,” absolutely, but no hip-hop, yelling or cheerleading, s’il vous plaît.

Another list to start: people who should speak at this important event.

there were some impressive speakers at The American Conservative Summit on Realism and Restraint

I would suggest we start planning for next year, before Killary or anybody else gets to kill more people. Ed Royce is gearing up to impose more sanctions — actually, an ultimatum — on Iran. He & his ilk have to be named, shamed, and stopped.

There should be books and their authors, and cut-out sessions where authors talk about their books.

There should be a take-away: Marchers should not only be educated and energized, they should be armed with a program — maybe the ‘syllabus’ for a Salon that they could host in their own living rooms back home. The energy needs to get pumped up in DC but spread out over the nation. Each March participant must become an educator in his/her own neighborhood — Each One Teach One.

It’s not for us to ask them to take the blows if we are not willing to march with them.

That’s what virtu is.

Couldn’t agree more. btw – the list is growing exponentially:

geokat62
SolontoCroesus
Alexander
RobinG

Let me know if others would like for me to add their name to this list. And remember, if you act now, the first 13 get a coffee on me.

Meeting up can be done electronically.

This issue is so important to me, I’m willing to do my part to ensure its success.

I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year (it should coincide if at all possible with aipac).

Phil, glad to hear you think the idea has merit. My recommendation would be to keep the powder dry for a few more years to allow Killery enough time to put the finishing touches to their “remaking the ME” game plan, so having a march sometime in 2020 would have maximum impact. Whether it should coincide with the AIPAC conference or held during the dog days of summer, I’ll leave it to the strategic planners to decide.

My 2 cents.

You’re going to have to elevate yourself from ‘schmuck’. Don’t underestimate yourself. (Remember Erin Brockovich.)

As for the Council for the National Interest, you asked, Phil didn’t answer. (Have you asked him thru the CNI or other email/phone contact, or just here anonymously?) My guess is that Phil is already doing what he finds most suitable and effective for himself. He is educating people through his writing and speaking.

Meeting up can be done electronically. Besides the internet, there are services like FreeConferenceCall.com which may also apply in Canada.

(my New Year’s resolution was to stop obsessively commenting on Unz. Maybe next year.)

Thinking about the whole Million Man March thing, and how it’s not something AIPAC does —

This scene from Gandhi

Phil Giraldi, Grant Smith – and so many others — have already taken leadership positions.

It’s not for us to ask them to take the blows if we are not willing to march with them.

That’s what virtu is.

Very good questions, S2C and RobinG.

I’m just this schmuck who is trying to make a difference by proposing an idea that might get people to call for real change.

As for making this thing happen, I realize that it is not a trivial matter. That’s why I suggested that it might make more sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead in organizing such an event.

Alternatively, I am also willing to meet up with a few other fellow travellers to brainstorm how to turn this idea into reality.

Given how corrupted the political process has become, I am convinced that real change will only come from the grassroots.

sorry — I’m confused about which of you, Robin and/or geokat62, is organizing marches or lobbying Congress.

Having participated in some Code Pink contra-AIPAC activities, I no longer put much stock in street activism. Whatever else one can say about the Israel lobbies, they are organized and effective; their practices are useful models from which to pick and choose effective elements, and I don’t see AIPAC using street protest since the Jewish Veterans march in 1933. True, that started a major snowball rolling . . .

Of course, the I lobbies have a lot of money — in Der Judenstaat Theodor Herzl wrote of the “terrible power of the purse” that was key to Jewish triumph (not necessarily success, but coming out on top) since at least the 1880s.
I’m a student of the authentic Machiavelli; he scorned the use of wealth to gain power and considered power gained by throwing wealth around to be ephemeral and oppressive. Machiavelli dedicated his life to — “would trade his soul for ” — a republic in which the people of his beloved Florence freely participated in and supported their own government. People power, a dynamic uniting the support of the people committed to virtu with their leadership, was his crusade. A prince who failed to gain that support was doomed to failure.

I don’t think the Israel lobby has the authentic support of the American people; if they did, it would not be so essential that so much wealth be expended to lie to the American people so relentlessly; lying is not a quality of manly courage — virtu.

Do you have a think-tank, geokat62?

Do you publish position papers, distribute them to congressional staffers, etc?

do you have some organizing mechanisms, a 501 to collect donations, etc? How can someone get in touch with you to turn a cyber/internet campaign into real live ‘boots on the ground’?

OK, those are solid demands. (Sorry if I missed that. Did you list those before?) And since you’ve pushed back to 2020, seems like enough lead time. BTW, I never said I wouldn’t join your parade. I just mentioned some difficulties of the task, plus the questionable effectiveness of the march itself. But as an element of a campaign (you may hope/believe the crowning element) it’s fine.

You have a big challenge. Probably the biggest part is education about the Israel Lobby influence. Things are coming more in the open, but there are also the vehement deniers, and those with the most toxic influence are people like Chomsky. So there’s cognitive dissonance in all directions, plus the covert Zionists who are embedded within the “Palestinian Solidarity” movement itself. (You might want to talk to Alison Weir.)

Second, you’ll probably find that everyone has their own schtick. When you meet actively engaged people and pitch your idea, chances are they will say, “That’s great; now here’s what I’m doing…” And they’ll proceed to tell you about their upcoming conference or trip to N.Korea. So you’re going to have to take leadership, and create some sort of team, make strategy including social media –FB, twitter, a website, etc. And it will be hard for you to remain anonymous. (Are you an American fugitive up there?… Do you know Arthur Topham?)

You’ll find allies. Grant Smith (director of IRMEP, the Institute for Reasearch: Middle Eastern Policy) is hard core. Check out his work. He’s organizing this year’s Israel Lobby Conference, “Israel’s Influence: Good or Bad for America?”, March 18 at the National Press Club. Grant has plenty of experience with FOIA requests, lawsuits, etc. If you just take your “2. all foreign agents must register under FARA”, that’s quite a briar patch.

I didn’t put any links here b/c for the past week I can’t usually post them to UNZ. (Small amount of paranoia setting in.) Best of luck.

As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.)

I thought the name of the campaign indicates quite clearly what we’ll be demanding… “A Declaration of Independence from Israel,” no?

And here are the top 10 demands we’ll be making to break free from Zionist rule:

1. public money for public elections
2. all foreign agents must register under FARA
3. no more wars for Israel
4. end the occupation, now
5. the perpetrators of the illegal invasion of Iraq must be brought to justice
6. the facilitators of torture must be brought to justice
7. no dual citizens in positions of high office
8. Israel must become a signatory of the NPT
9. no more tribute paid to Israel
10. no more UN vetoes for Israel

One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself.

Once again, I commend you for your activism. Not sure why you’re not willing to participate in this proposed March. If we could get a few key people to spearhead this initiative, we could try and rally support from those who are anti-war. A good starting point would be to appeal to readers of Unz, Antiwar.com, Mondoweiss, Boiling Frogs, and Consortiun News. As I indicated before, perhaps it would make sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead on something like this. All we need is for someone to get the snowball rolling.

In the meantime, good luck with the “Dear Colleague” letters. Hopefully, you’ll get to double digits before the current session of Congress ends.

Geo,

This will be a learning experience for both of us. First off, you sound like it’s over, but it’s still just begun. Next week (I’ve been promised) Tulsi Gabbard will circulate a “Dear Colleague” letter. That’s the standard way to appeal for co-sponsors. No time-line has yet been determined. (The Speaker of the House designates how long the bill will remain in committee.) Indeed, this may come to naught, but I’m not throwing in the towel before the first round.

As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.) Are you just crossing the border to rant and rail, or do you have a plan? The Spring protest season is ramping up. April 20 is the AIPAC convention. One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself. It’s grown into quite a scene, and this year there will be a rally at the White House followed by a march to the Convention Center. Not that the MSM cares, and not that the general public will notice.

Only one man has ever succeeded in getting the million. This year, the 10th anniversary, he had at least half a million, which MSM dismissed as a weak showing. I’ll take my free coffee in 2021, to celebrate the peaceful dissolution of the state of Israel.

I am re-reading M&W. Will be back in the fullness of time if I have anything useful to offer

Geo, I’ve lost my Christmas wager, but onward.

I commend you on your efforts, Robin. But my skepticism was based on the reality that the US political system is completely corrupted… and the fact that only 3 co-sponsors will willing to support this initiative bears this out. That’s why I’m in favour of a “root and branch” approach. Listen, my offer of a free coffee still stands. Let me know if you’d like to be added to my Million Man March, A Declaration of Independence from Israel, scheduled for the summer of 2020.

In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.

Sam, from one absolute statement to the next. While I agree that not all US FP is driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively, I think a strong case could be made (and has been made, see M&W) that the Zionist project is the primary beneficiary of US MENA policy.

This week I told a friend that although there are critics of various aspects of the Holocaust, I didn’t know of anyone who denied it outright. Wouldn’t you know, the next day someone at UR did just that.

wow Robin, that’s rather extraordinary!

I’ve been going around here recently saying that no one in their right mind would ever deny the Holocaust happened. In fact that is specifically why I was mocking the very use of the meaningless pejorative Holocaust “denier” as ludicrous because it’s always used dishonestly to smear honest people like the ones your friend mentioned – “critics of various aspects of the Holocaust”. But that was because I had never imagined anyone could be as ignorant as to deny the very existence of the Holocaust!

Who was this fool who said it was all a total fraud. I’d can’t wait to get a piece of them!

Geo, I’ve lost my Christmas wager, but onward.

Paul Pillar explains why the Iranian missile tests are NOT a violation of the JCPOA or any other agreement.

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/03/hyping-more-fears-about-iran/

Hyping More Fears about Iran

What can we call the Saudi move, castling? ;(

Sam, you are right. This week I told a friend that although there are critics of various aspects of the Holocaust, I didn’t know of anyone who denied it outright. Wouldn’t you know, the next day someone at UR did just that. You said, “…I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.” Well, that word exclusively does it: of course not. Many motives are in play, and sometimes they converge. (I’ve so far restrained myself from berating human nature.)

Now, I’ll try posting this w/o the link, in case that’s what the problem is. (I’ve tried to post this several times..) This is at The Saker’s blog, where the commenters astutely deconstruct Flynn’s lies, from his mission to Moscow. Knight to Rook 4.
“Interview of Michael T. Flynn, retired United States Army lieutenant general, former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)”

Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters?

Hi Geo,
you are not, nor Robin. Many on this forum are, and far too many for me to list, as any cursory count on a random day will bear this assertion out, I am quite sure. Yet my observation is not at all to afford any particularist support for Israel’s position, as much as it is to identify a likely error committed as a result of such a position. For it fails to recognise the seminal source of our troubles. A win for Hillary? Are we counting Bernie quite out?. My preference is for Trump. In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.

Much to think about.

… that ascribing all ills to “Israel-firsting” is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.

Happy New Year, Sam.

Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters? What I, and most others, are ascribing to the neocons/Israel firsters is their decision to lobby the US gov’t to implement their game plan – i.e., to remake the ME by regime changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionist project, all in an effort to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle.

Nothing more, nothing less. And we all know what the consequences of that decision have been, don’t we? Trillions of taxpayer dollars wasted, over a million lives lost, and millions more displaced from their homes.

And just wait till the “darling of the neocons” takes power in January 2017 and puts the finishing touches to their game plan… the Israel firsters will be cackling almost as loud as Killary.

Hello Robin,

[The anti-war warriors were now primed for subversion]

Gainsaying or otherwise whitewashing the transparent motivation of neocons, is a reprobate’s labour; and being well stocked in them, the Beltway toils quite indefatigably at it. Which is why the likes of Flynn are a vanishing breed.

I hold the view that neocons carry version 2.x of the same gene that has found expression in humans from the time homo habilis (?) started including flesh in their diet. With perhaps a mutation or two.

I will submit to you, that in the ranks of their leadership, are a disproportionate number of jews, [I wonder why?] which then begs the question, as to what the far vaster intelligentsia of gentiles busy with? Even if the hoi polloi are utterly unaware of the state of affairs, what, one is compelled to ask, are the gentile leadership up to? [here I am making the untenable concession that all jewish leaders are 'Israel firsters']. Are gentile leaders all corrupted, mountebanks to the woman [ ] , and entirely compromised by jewish financial power? Or is it that they happen to share the same gene, and financial succour is a mere detail?

These questions have plagued me for some time, and my early thoughts lead me to believe, that ascribing all ills to “Israel-firsting” is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.

Is your command of English such that you know the saying about Pots and Kettles?

Your command of language and logic appear to be of the same order as your prudence and your conversational courtesy. E.g. You don’t seem to have noticed that I was asking whether Carroll Price had heard correctly. I could have added a query as to whether he had been told that there were at least 7 language groups but it is not idiomatic to describe someone as speaking a language group.

If you seriously wish to flaunt pretended knowledge you might care to do something important by taking on Wikipedia, Google and the Hindustan Times. Try searching for “How many different languages in India” and you need not make a fool of yourself again over something as simple to check before opening your mouth as a would-be know-all. True there is a lot to be said about languages and dialects, just as there is about what defines a biological species, but you need to equip yourself for the discussion if you are not to stick out like a boorish and boring sore thumb. (Try practising on why Ukrainian and Russian and/or the old mother tongue of Belarus are different languages or just dialects).

Nor do you help your case by asserting as if it related to my conversation with Carroll Price that Chinese is one language with “about 50 dialects”. True there is one written language in a couple of forms which allows written communication between Chinese people whose languages (or varieties of Chinese, or dialects) are mutually incomprehensible when spoken but you could only regard Cantonese and Putongha (Mandarin or Standard Chinese) as the same language if you were willing to call Russian and French – or Polish to avoid silly quibbles – the same language.

“For you language and dialect are the same thing”!!! That clumsiness is a clue to me, as is your “similar to China which have [sic]” that English is not your first language. True? Or are you just sufficiently lacking in courtesy and common sense to start a dispute over language without making sure you get your own contribution right?

Michael Flynn’s opening gambit was his “willful decision” comment. This ‘lost leader’ gained him sympathy with the anti-chaos and anti-regime-change crowds, and some misplaced confidence.

Ex-DIA boss Michael Flynn: White House took “willful decision” to fund, train Syria Islamists ISIS

The anti-war warriors were now primed for subversion.

As usual, you type about things you do not know much about. For you, language and a dialect are the same thing. India may have 700 dialects, but definitely not 700 languages, similar to China which have about 50 dialects of one Chinese language.

Sam,

I’m trying to reply (4 times now). If this goes through, I’ll follow with a gambit.

Hello Robin,
my Chess game is not where I should wish it, but I must say, that little Allemande-ish, felt oddly effective; wonder if Rurik agrees…..:-)

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/01/venality-and-the-surveillance-hawks-by-cp.html#comment-6a00d8341c72e153ef01b8d18b47a3970c
Let’s say Islamic nukes destroyed Israel this year, would history record brought on by Israel self-destructive acts or U.S. FP errors?

who cares

I think people in awakening mood to know the surround situation that real truth. Especially the abc of israeli penetration in decisive US foreign politics as well as domestic politics THAT harming genuine US interest, dragging US people into uncertainty.

” . . . Judgeships, particularly on the federal level, are highly sought-after political prizes awarded only to those who faithfully serve the interest of the State. . . .”

Federal judges are creatures of politics. They’re ex-political hacks, ex-campaign managers, personal friends of U.S. senators, and the like. And, yes, some of them–like the infamous Jay Bybee of the torture bullshit–get their judgeships for “services rendered,” as it were.

In any case, there’s nothing special about “a lawyer who knew a politician.”

Did he have a thick accent? I think you may have misheard:) What about “at least 700 languages”?

yes

agreed bondo,

but the only reason it’s become significant at all is because the Fiend is using those ethnic and religious fault lines to foment their strife and wars with..

just like they do everywhere. Always.

war and strife and hatred are mother’s milk to the Fiend

a laudable agenda Geo,

in and of itself

no less so than stopping more of the senseless bloodshed and I think you’d agree

my view, question irrelevant

right now all syrians of whatever group, region are syrian.

before the appearance of the fiend, they managed to live together, intermarry as happened in iraq before the fiend appeared there

Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?

I think you know where I stand on that matter, Rurik.

As you know, my overriding concern is to discover the truth. So I was merely trying to confirm one way or the other whether Alawite Syrians are ethnically distinct from Sunni Syrians. Nothing more, nothing less.

If anyone else could shed some light on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated.

Happy New Year Geo!

let’s make it a great one shall we

Not sure how reliable this source is, however.

from this sentence, I would have to say not very:

“The Syrian conflict is a democratic struggle against a tyrannical government”.

this sounds to me like exactly the way they would dishonestly and predictably characterize the conflict in Ukraine as “a democratic struggle against a tyrannical government” – The “tyrannical” government being Vlad Putin. While ignoring that the foundations to the conflict are between ethnic Ukrainians vs. ethnic Russians- and territory and resources and tribalism and historical grievances, and so forth. Things almost never mentioned, but are at the heart of the conflict. And more to the point, are being cynically manipulated for the agenda and greater designs of the Fiend.

Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?

Are they fighting over the particulars of Islam,… or are they fighting over ancient to contemporary tribal (ethnic) differences and hatreds? And the religion is window dressing.

Happy New Year, Rurik.

I guess I, along with everyone else, simply assumed the Sunni and Alawite of Syria were ethnic Arabs. You are the first to question this assumption, as far as I know. I did a little digging and here’s one reference I managed to find:

Alawites are ethnic Arabs and members of a Shi’ite sect located in the eastern Mediterranean region, whose syncretic and secretive religious practices have historically made them suspect to Sunni religious authorities. United under the Ottoman Empire and, for a time, under the French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon (1923-1943), they became divided when the borders of the modern Middle East were drawn up.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/william-eichler/turkey’s-arab-alawites-and-syrian-conflict

Not sure how reliable this source is, however.

Several years ago, a man who had been born and raised in India told me there’s at least 7 different languages spoken in India. He made the comment that, generally speaking, if you leave your own province to enter another, you will very likely be unable to converse with local people due to their language being completely different from your own. It appears that English has emerged as somewhat of a universal language of the country, although many rural dwellers never learn English, or any other language, than their own.

You’re right about the soccer teams, especially in places like Ireland.

So for the purposes of simplicity, let’s leave out the Kurds and Turks and let’s just limit the scope of the question to today’s conflict between the Sunnis and the Shiites fighting in Syria.

Are they fighting over the particulars of Islam, (some silly rift from the seventh century over Muhammad’s heirs) or are they fighting over ancient to contemporary tribal (ethnic) differences and hatreds? And the religion is window dressing.

here’s a map of the ethnic breakdown of Syria

as with all of these that I could find, they all draw a distinct division between the Sunni Muslims who appear to inhabit much of the eastern and central mass of Syria, and the Alawites and others who appear to inhabit the Western coast on the Med.

Again, all the information I can find on the particulars seems to draw an identifiable ethic distinction between the Sunni Arabs (who are likely closely related to the Sunnis of Saudi Arabia for instance, or the Sunnis of Iraq) vs. the Alawites who are distinct.

Yet, I don’t think this ethnic (tribal) divide is ever mentioned. They always color the conflict as being a religious one between Sunni and Shiite. But I suspect there’s more to the story.

You certainly open up the scope of “tribalism”. Within India alone you could probably find as many consciously distinct “tribes” as in the rest of Eurasia including far more than those called “tribal(s)” in India.

To examine the questions you raise I think I would start with finding some universals like “team spirit” and its possibly vicarious version in sporting fan groups on the evo-psycholological side and near universals like shared economic conditions or interests on the possibly next most important side. Then one might look at conditions for crossovers like Indians of all religions and ethnicities supporting their cricket team against Pakistan and everyone else… Come to think of it that leads to thoughts about diverting the unthinking instinctive masses into relatively harmless “tribalisms” thereby perhaps creating a struggle for young souls between grim jihadist preaching Imams and the charismatic head coach of the All Arabia Football Confederation…

You can n’t surveil everybody.

“That the very same people who support surveillance of Americans and vehemently denounce efforts by civil libertarians to end the NSA’s scooping up our data indiscriminately are now screaming foul when confronted with their own canoodling with Israeli foreign agents is the kind of hypocrisy we have come to expect from this crowd. Spying on ordinary Americans is fine with them, but when it comes to stopping Israeli espionage – well, that’s just not cool.”

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/12/31/mossad-caucus-exposed/

Phil, Two things I hope are constructive:

1) There is no conflict “in principle” between security and liberty. You either have both or neither. The key is to remember that you are the only one that can keep yourself safe from the government.

2) You are a writer now. Learn how to use a f-ing comma! Geezus. Seriously if some writer became a spy and never tried to learn a damn thing about it, you would point and laugh. So why are you torturing me with this amateur bullshit? You are a hard man to parse, sir.

Macroman

I see you’re back Sam. Things a little slow these days with the loan shark business? But not to worry. Since most business are somewhat seasonal, things are bound to pick up once those deferred payments become due on Feb. 1st.

But you do aim most of your criticism at Israel, as opposed to Sam’s “KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., “. No objection here, they deserve it.

If it appears I criticize Israel most, that is a shame, because they’re not the ones I feel are most deserving of reprobation. Rather it is the likes of Clinton and Bush, Hagee and Woolsey, Obama and McCain whom I’m most appalled at. They make Bibi look like an angel by comparison.

Whatever. He’s quite right: the Chomsky Deflection is a chess move!

you’re often rather oblique in your schwerpunkt Robin ; )

Hello Wizard,

your premise is wrong in suggesting that most Sunni are Arab and most Shia Persian or Alawite. The Alawites in Syria are Arabs

yes, you’re right, the Alawites are Arabs, but yet they seem a bit removed somehow from the Arabs farther to the east, it seems to me. And just as the indigenous citizens of Europe are all European, yet there are distinct and often hostile sub-groups among them. Sort of the same way the Irish and English have seemed to use religion (Catholic vs. Protestant) to exacerbate what might otherwise simply be a tribal conflict between the tribes of England and the tribes of Ireland.

So if you forget for the moment all the other Sunni Muslims in Pakistan or Indonesia, and concentrate for the purposes of the query on the greater Levant, is it possible that the divide between Sunni and Shiite has tribal motivations?

Or, on a related note, is it possible that the hostilities between Pakistan and India are not wholly due to religion, but also include tribal realities?

“I wince at that characterization of “targeting” anyone”

If you insist. But you do aim most of your criticism at Israel, as opposed to Sam’s “KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., “. No objection here, they deserve it. I’d like to stop thinking about Israel, but unfortunately they’ve made themselves the schwerpunkt. Also, I think Sam (purposely?) misconstrued your use of “universal”. Whatever. He’s quite right: the Chomsky Deflection is a chess move!

Art,
You make a very valid comparison. How many know criminals within the US government have ever suffered so much as a weak indictment for their criminal conduct? To name only two, torturer enablers, Roberto Gonzales and John Yoo are still running around scot-free.

You over-rate Federal employees, with State employees being far worse. If you ever meet and converse with a few, you quickly realize that most are well below average intelligence and most are entirely void of ambition. Which explains why working for the government is one of the few things they could ever be successful at doing.

Hello Sam

I notice the party most vocal about ‘gentlemanly behaviors’ continues with a desultory fire from beyond the truce line. If indeed I have on occasion or two been guilty of being ‘crude’ it shouldn’t require rocket science to understand why. How is it, do you suppose, we can have an agreement suggested by the one party, accepted by the 2nd party (meself) and said 1st party cannot sit still and observe the agreement? It’s like so many of the neo-Platonic pansies who, when setting up a debate with rules made to suit themselves, endlessly object to any point that does not suit their fancy, even to the death of the matter under discussion, and that’s the rule they embrace; no matter they took a hit, like the Black Knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail, denial is paramount, for instance in a case where a truce is repeatedly violated by the one party claiming the high ground of ‘gentlemanly’ behaviors .. but isn’t keeping to one’s word the very pinnacle of the ‘gentlemanly’ concept? (rhetorical question.)

One would think that, because of my indigenous philosophical background, a Mormon, taking offense at the consequent necessary, culturally integrated humor in debate required of myself to be true to my origins, has labelled this errant soul a ‘new world’ meshumad ;o)

On related topic, due to certainty my recent (you found to be “balanced”) more lengthy than typical comment would draw sufficient disapprobation, I’ve blogged it at my page with some amendments and a swipe at Plato in new conclusion

http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2015/12/30/throwing-stones-from-glass-houses/

Cheers!

The only terrorist Americans have to fear are the of 5th column, dual loyalist, Zionist Jews

Or, those Others afflicted by Astigmatism with the advancement of years.

I reckon the Spanish were the most extractive, followed by the Portuguese and French, yet I would not paint with the same brush nor brand exiguous, the contributions of the British to their colonial subjects. I do realise that my position stands sharply discordant with the received view of colonialism, but there it is, after weighing the subsequent events and conditions of many of its former colonies, I remain firm in the conclusion that the British system imparted benefits far beyond the scope of simple arithmetical calculus.

More to the point, Britain had great expenditures on conquering armies and most of the taxes collected financed local expenditures and therefore benefited the local economies. While gold, mahogany and spices were shipped back home, it couldn’t economically justify having empire. And you don’t need to control a country to operate commercially: E.g., international companies extract oil in the Third World today, paying off the local dictator. It is true that the process of conquest, starting with the East India Company’s own army, was mostly aimed at forcing local nabobs to agree to trade, one would have thought the nabobs would realize the value of free trade, but apparently they saw no more benefit in trade than robbing or heavily taxing it. Still, you don’t need to control a country to trade with it, and conquest is expensive. So why did their Majesties’ governments do this for a few centuries? [The answer to this has certain implications for the USA-Israel-UK dynamic]

To be contd.

I disagree. Judgeships, particularly on the federal level, are highly sought-after political prizes awarded only to those who faithfully serve the interest of the State. When it comes to promotions to the next level, what few honorable judges there are, stay where they are.

Hi Robin,

I’ll try not to be too long-winded. I know I’m often guilty of that ; )

he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is ‘the worst’ or words to that effect.

for the record, Israel is “the worst” offender of the use of American foreign aid by using it to oppress and torment and murder innocent people whose only ‘crime’ is that they exist on their own land. Just so we’re straight on that ; )

his justification for targeting Israel.

but I wince at that characterization of “targeting” anyone. I’m not targeting them, I’m criticizing them. I want them to stop murdering and humiliating people. I want them to stop targeting children in the crosshairs of their sniper rifles and shooting them with ammunition I’m forced to help pay for. – And then claim I’m morally complicit in the crime. That I and all other Americans are just as bad as they are. No, we’re not!

Hi Sam,

“the Jew is at the root of all ills”

hmm, that little ditty is in quotes. Almost like you’re quoting me. But you would never do that now would you Sam, put nasty words in my mouth and imply I said something really dumb and objectionable, would you?

And for the record, ‘the Jew” is not at the root of all ills. Sometimes I think there’s some of them that’d like to think so. As if they were a Dr. Evil of sorts with megalomaniacal fantasies of controlling the world. But it’s not so. They just wield unfair and often negative influence over a lot of the West today, especially when it comes to Israel or wars or wars for Israel, and for that, I do not give them a pass. But then again, neither do a lot of Jews, who also happen to be some of the best voices against the madness and evil of these wars.

I suspect geo that we are simply of a like mind in many respects. A shared esteem for the ancient virtues of veracity for instance. ~A love for the truth.~ But yet I’m none the less humbled (floored ; ) by your generous forbearance.

I hope I can endeavor to aspire to a small shred of such an honor, coming as it is, from you.

The only terrorist Americans have to fear are the of 5th column, dual loyalist, Zionist Jews installed at virtually every level of the US government, including the Pentagon. Certainly, there’s no other group of people whose activities can be traced directly to the sorry state of affairs in which this country finds itself today.

I don’t want to let down the reputation of the empire on which the sun never set Sam but your closing parenthetical par. surprised me. Actually on two grounds but take the idea of the great colonial powers giving much money to foreign nations as the first surprise in itself.

Britain subsidised many foreign nations in its 18th and 19th century wars but that doesn’t seem to be what you had in mind. Nor should the European colonial powers be given credit for the missionary activity which actually helped their subjects. Spain in particular, was almost wholly extractive apart from its conferring the gift of the Catholic faith on the heathen. France probably did more through government to educate its colonial subjects than Britain although clearly Indians got huge and valuable doses of western education once the Brits ruled India.

Maybe the word “gives” should be the starting point because it suggests no quid pro quo, or even an expectation of one. So what do the “givers” demand in return, what do they expect, how much institutional inertia is built in to the system including employment of jobsworths in NGOs, departments of state and at or under the UN?

Apart from making politicians and many voters feel good when giving (other people’s) money to save starving Ethiopian children I suppose the logic of the welfare state flows over to world citizenship especially for those of Christian background (and possibly Muslim if their countries were richer: as the Saudi financed madrassas suggests). Ancient Judaism didn’t show strong feelings for non Jews but modern Jewry has presumably internalised Enlightenment values and certainly seen how the big man business applies everywhere, not just amongst medieval aristocrats and pig owning Papuan chiefs but self-made businessmen too so Jews now famously reach out with charitable giving to all the people of the countries they live in. (Yes, “famously” perhaps does imply “not anonymously” but there is a very good argument that humble anonymous giving is not necessarily the best in effect because it doesn’t inspire others to give),

I find myself having read some of Rurik’s stuff appreciatively and have just replied to one of his posts so I struggle to remember why, early on, I had him on my short list of Commenters to Ignore. I suppose it was the intemperate language which had extended sometimes to casting doubt on his capacity for rational thought. You mention WTC 7 and it could well have been his furious passion on that subject and our naïve stupidity in not seeing it his way which was the big off-put. It is interesting how often intelligent people can let themselves down as persuaders because they become so sure about something on inadequate evidence and get frustrated and furious at their consequent inability to prove what they are so certain about. Of course that tendency is built in to a creature that ran Inquisitions and burned witches (just for two of a hundred examples) and no doubt is closely associated with the ability of teams and tribes to bond. I so dislike false certainties and bad arguments (including ones thought sufficient but just missing something) that I think I will do my poor best at the bonding business by the human equivalents of defleaing which for me includes being willing to play handicap matches with almost anyone at my tennis club. (Handicap? Yup. Court/Real/Royal tennis).

gaza exceeds all crimes imputed to the nazis. not the actual nazis but the much worse fictional nazis created in the fevered brains of jews.

nazis had hospitals for its work camps inmates. jews bomb hospitals, ambulances, doctors, patients. of course some patients are created to be organ donors. lots of bad organs the jews have.

in the judaized/zionized west, the jew is behind the curtain and controlling, influencing, creating – wars, corrupt politicians, corrupt judiciary, corrupt banks, corrupt govt agencies, corrupt media, corrupt academia.

then there is degraded art and literature and cinema and tv and radio. all reduced to trash which is the level of jew art. art brought down to the level of the jew and proclaimed “art”.

then we have that monstrous wall snaking throughout the west bank. created by snakes to steal land, water, destroy communities, families.

so much of this done by a collective whose god is themselves. they are the higher authority. a few believe in a god outside the collective – a small, incomplete g-d. this g-d would be the devil.

then there is a separate class for the murderers of olive trees. these insane thugs do know that olive trees have a long history, a long, truthful memory.

this memory has to be destroyed by the fakes, frauds, aliens. the people whose entire history is a fiction.

all funded by u.s. taxpayers dollars.

Point taken, but I don’t think RTW is ever crude. Biting humour? Yes.

Also haven’t you noticed, that here at the UR, politeness is a tradition observed more in its breach than in its observance?

“The Chomsky Deflection” – sounds like a chess strategy Robin, one whose existence and efficacy I was unaware of ; until now, that is. The criticism should be self-evident. Nevertheless, after having just verified Chomsky’s arguments, I discovered that Rurik’s reply was the precise version drawn from the stock in trade handbook of SJW brigades.

I don’t mind at all that you support his position [why should I?], however, if you follow my argument carefully, you will notice that I was simply insisting that he practice and accordingly diversify his self-proclaimed universality of choice, morality etc. occasionally away from his exclusive target. I hope you see that. It isn’t at all that Israel should be shielded from criticism, but if one preaches the universality of lofty principles, they ought be invariant under all schemes, in other words, universal. Chomsky’s was not a response to universality and therefore subject to your criticism.

(Furthermore, ever make an accounting of why America gives so much money to so many foreign nations [Israel being the largest]? And why did all the great colonial powers do the very same? I am sure you have an answer in mind, but I suspect it is simpler than the reality.)

Interesting question about assessing whether religion or ethnicity is the bigger dividing criterion BUT… I think your premise is wrong in suggesting that most Sunni are Arab and most Shia Persian or Alawite. The Alawites in Syria are Arabs I believe. But, more to the point is the fact that Pakistan is overwhelmingly Sunni and has a bigger population than the Arab countries. Also Turkey is predominantly Sunni and, maybe, though I am not sure, Indonesia which has the biggest Muslim population of any single country I believe. Bangladesh?? Not Shia anyway. The Kurds are more Kurd than Sunni I guess and Hamas is probably Sunni but supported by Iran. I forgot Egypt which I suppose is mostly Sunni and Arab but no bigger than Turkey so my question re premise remains.

Several years ago I was driving in (I think it was Brazil) and asked a local for directions.
What was given included “turn right at the tree where the policeman was killed”.

…and he has been known not to hold back punches on occasion, eh?

Sam, if I wanted to see the exchange of crude punches, I’d tune into the UFC. What I enjoy most about coming here at Unz, is the exchange of ideas and arguments in a forceful, yet respectful, manner. These are the qualities I look for most in the person with home I’m debating. You definitely possess them… can’t say the same for your friend.

SAM’S USE OF “CHOMSKY DEFLECTION”

Hi Geo.
The “Chomsky Deflection” is calling someone a hypocrite for singling out Israel. It’s been publically debated and debunked. Now, I haven’t read all Rurik said, he’s too long-winded, and he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is ‘the worst’ or words to that effect. But his point is defensible.

Americans have every right to single out Israel because, unlike every other man-made Hell-hole, Israel is openly and unapologetically supported by our government. This makes us (the ostensible government by the people) directly responsible, via military and financial aid, UN votes and vetoes, for all the crimes the Zionist state has committed and is committing. Some of us don’t like it (or being scammed into wars for Israel’s benefit, but that’s a slightly different argument). In fact we are disgusted, ashamed, angry, etc., and we have a greater responsibility to address this.

So, even though I have had disagreements with Rurik on other topics, I support his justification for targeting Israel. I hope Sam can understand that.

Ah got it! I did suspect that you were needling us for allowing the Clintons’ to amass wealth which would have better served remaining in the pockets of us sheenies.

Hi Geo,
Don’t mind at all. If you vouch for him I’ll accept it. I can’t claim any capacity to peer into the souls of people, but can perhaps conjure it. Soul-wise I think we are all on safe ground. Call me eccentric if you wish, I actually don’t like many of my friends, but rather do enjoy jousting words with clever blokes[Rurik is one]. [in all seriousness, its worth reiterating my preference for RTW's nuanced approach in most matters; and he has been known not to hold back punches on occasion, eh? ]

Sam – I was more hoping to make funny then make a statement on intelligence. I failed – sad me! — Art

If unquestioningly submitting to the notion that “the Jew is at the root of all ills”, is the litmus test, then I am afraid I am tribal.

Sam, I hope you don’t mind my interjecting at this point, but you know me (passion for truth and justice… and all that).

If it’s true that one can take the measure of a man by gauging the quality of his soul, then based on my albeit limited interactions with these two individuals, but more importantly based on the content of their comments, I’d have to say that Rurik’s soul shines as bright as the north star.

Now before someone accuses me of bias (of being Rurik’s ilk), just remember that I suffered verbal abuse at Rurik’s hands, as well… when he repeatedly called me a “goat” for not agreeing with him that building 7 was an inside job.

My 2 cents, Sam.

I have never claimed, nor believe that jews are smarter [its a very difficult trait to define] than any other community [just the basic facts - they are on the average better educated in the USA and Ashkenazis have a higher average IQ, with the right tail of the distribution being quite remarkable. However I certainly do not subscribe to IQ being a great determinant of success].

I am afraid I don’t follow what Clintons’ amassing of wealth has to do with this. In general I would speculate that amassing wealth is perhaps only very weakly correlated with smarts.

I don’t need to criticize you Ronald, your words do more damage to your character than I could or would want to contribute to.

I just think it’s a shame that such intelligent fellows as you and Sam are so myopically and terminally tribal. In Sam’s case for his perceived tribe, and in your case, against Western (European/Christian/whatever) peoples. Yours is a kind of anti-tribal – tribalism. I’m reminded of those white orcs from those Tolkien movies who’re smarter than the grunting dark orcs but still full of hate and bloodlust, if not more so – it’s just much more focused.

Anyways, it’s always fun ; )

now go ahead and call me a homosexual or some other thing like you always do : )

Getting criticized by Rurik and his ilk is like a badge of honor (I didn’t read beyond his first lines.) Sort of like a certain cartoonist getting banned by Turkey’s Erdogan… one could be truly proud of that. But then we knew cretins crawl out from under rocks, whether in low places or high office, actually that’s normal. Maybe Rurik has a secret crush on Bibi and that clashes with denial in relation to his sexual identity .. making for an involuntary, angry anti-Semite ;0)

; )

I still hold out hope for you Sam

and my words, all of them, I leave for the reader to judge

Failed on each count; if you bothered to examine the internal inconsistencies of your approach.

Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to respond to basic rants, unsupported by evidence ["Jewish crys [sic]of ‘eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years’!….” etc], or transparently dodging the requirement imposed by your self-admitted ownership of Universal morality and wisdom [" I will when my government sends......" the same government that is both the object of your disdain and the convenient cover for your dodges, as it suits]

bye for now.

you might consider delivering the arrows of that “Universal” wisdom to KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., for universality demands it, does it not?

when my government sends them billions of dollars each year and weapons to slaughter their oppressed citizens with, then perhaps I will

you White Christian Supremacists

you’re out of your mind Sam if you’re trying to call me such things. Nowhere have I expressed even a hint of such sympathies. Hardly. But then you’re not beyond the occasional smear now are you? ; )

considered the Jewish G’d to be an entirely vengeful chappie.

yes, but that is in the literal sense, and we enlightened Westerners were optimistically hoping the Jews had evolved beyond the stone age tribalism of the religions of the past. Perhaps we were just projecting.

But, but….but, I struggle. My recollection is that you considered the Holocaust to be a wholly false construct, to be denied at every turn.

No Sam, what I said is that if every person who has some doubt about some detail of the Holocaust is going to be smeared and excoriated dishonestly as a quote “Holocaust Denier”, as if they said the whole thing was a fraud- then all people of good will who didn’t think it was right to force fealty to any dogma should all demand that they call us all Holocaust Deniers, that’s what I said. Because I think putting 87 year old ladies in prison for having a doubt about the official version of the Holocaust is an abomination to reason. Perhaps soon they’ll say that anyone who has any doubts about the official version of 911 is a ’911 denier’ and subject to arrest and imprisonment, and if so, well then I hope you’ll count me among them. Even tho it’s obvious that the Holocaust happened and that 911 happened, because they don’t want any questions raised, they think they can cow us all with these ridiculous smears, and intimidate us all into silence. But that has never been my nature ; )

Hamas was storing and launching rockets from schools and hospitals, and forcibly detaining civilians at these sites to “protect” these arsenals.

ahh. I see. I get it now. ; )

Jews were exclusively doing the finger pointing, if at all? And who may one ask, compels you to genuflect before Bibi? Aren’t you Rurik

not exclusively mind you, but anyone with even one brain cell clinking in their skulls knows of the Jewish crys of ‘eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years’!, and we all watched the endless Hollywood movies impugning all white people for slavery and how Washington and all the other dead white men were all evil, and other such rot. And you’re right, being Rurik, it riles my blood to see all the sniveling. It’s revolting.

Killing each other is a part of the human DNA, and why don’t we start taking an account of which nation/peoples/religions have killed how many?

How about we take account of our own souls?

For that to happen, an essential condition is for all potential citizens to embrace the idea.

you sound like Bibi; the prerequisite for any peace talks require the Pals to forsake their rights to return or any viable state, blah, blah , blah…

Understanding human nature? Not so much.

we’re all learning that