[…] http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-uss-liberty-wins-one/ […]

What would be the motives for the IDF to attack the Liberty. If any motive was suggested above, I missed it.

“The Jew cries out in pain as he is striking you”…

In addition to the death toll, 171 more of the crew were wounded in the two-hour assault.

Oh my – who could blame the Jews – even though it was a TWO-HOUR assault – clearly it was the “fog of war” that caused it. Those poor Jews never had the time to call it off. Did aircraft to ground radios even exist back then?

Clearly – this is just one more excuse to attack the truly virtuous of this world – the Jews. Face it folks, no matter what they do, they are always the victims.

(sarcasm off)

Think Peace — Art

It’s the only motive that has a modicum of rationale. Even so, you would have to have a small tight group of conspirators. You couldn’t have faked all the known communications traffic. Did they just hope that the “right” decision would be made by people who were not a part of the conspiracy?

What is the motive for the US to pass information to the Egyptians? Steal a chessboard piece from the Soviets? How many people would have to conspire to transmit that information to the Egyptians? How many Egyptians would have to remain silent all these years? Were there any Egyptians alive at that time, even one, much less one with military power that would take “intel” from the US at face value?

Incident was June 8. War was June 5 – June 10. Initial decision probably made June 7. Remember there is typically a lag time before decisions reflect the most recent state of knowledge.

e.g. they found out USS Liberty intelligence was finding its way to Egypt/Syria

Six-Day War. It was decided by the time of the Liberty attack. Why would they care about intelligence?

Based on what we know – especially the fact, as I have stated endlessly, that the U.S. knew what was happening in virtually real time, and Israel was aware of this fact, the most likely explanations (not necessarily in order of likelihood) would seem to be:

(1) Mistake at some level in Israel. This would have to be a relatively high level because both naval and air attacks were involved.

(2) Intentional but desperate/reluctant Israeli action to ward off some perceived major danger, e.g. they found out USS Liberty intelligence was finding its way to Egypt/Syria. A similar scenario would be LBJ deciding to muscle in on Israel’s operations, e.g. positioning the U.S. as a “peacekeeper” which would not necessarily be to Israel’s advantage.

(3) “Conspiracy” – LBJ himself or the Pentagon could have ordered Israel to attack the USS Liberty as a false flag to “justify” U.S. “retaliation” against Egypt. This seems hare-brained and very risky for Israel, but not impossible. If the Liberty had been sunk with the loss of all hands, the true facts could have been hushed up. Remember that Egypt was pro-Soviet in those days.

Reply could have been slotted more appropriately, sorry.

Discussion fizzled out, till next time.
Emotional needs fulfilled. Session completed.

For those couple into “digging in” no matter what: doesn’t “conspiracy to sink and murder” hinge on just one thing?
Listening, in real time, pilots-controllers communication.
Hebrew, real time, as it was going down.

If so, shouldn’t those guys who said they were quite sure it was “conspiracy….” write down that communication? As best as they can recollect. In Hebrew, of course, so we can see it. And then, if we wish, we find somebody to translate if for us.
In fact, shouldn’t they have done it as soon as the order to destroy all the tapes/document came? Would’ve been a smart move and we’ve been told they were smart guys.

There is nothing special here.
That’s how cops figure out conspiracy to commit murder by common criminals.
“You were there, you heard him talking”? “What did he say?””Write it down”. Then cross-examination…the works….

I must not be the bright person because I am befuddled by these comments from both of you.

Umm, was this reply intended for me?

So, would you agree that the reason for the incident was:
A mistake caused, most likely, by
-institutional arrogance
-lack of professionalism
-incompetence
-a certain level of exhaustion in command and control centers; probably even some callousness towards “Yanks” in some parts of the system
-and, of course – fog of war”

In essence, a mistake and not a conspiracy?

Just the incident itself, not the cover-up later on.

Agree.

Just a common sociopath or…..something more interesting for this topic?

The transcripts Block remembered seeing “were teletypes, way beyond Top Secret.

So the top dog on Crete “saw” teletypes, “way beyond Top Secret.” Nice airport novel scene, but: where did the teletypes originate? Obviously NOT in Crete but at some other facility, perhaps in Egypt.

Also, why do the teletypes already have a “way beyond Top Secret” classification? Somebody high-up must have decided that the contents/operation described warranted this.

This is either pure fiction (back-filling), or we are talking at least a day after the incident by which time Washington had had a chance to get involved and we are no longer talking about immediate tactical information.

“Don’t know what to say, really.”

Own up to having a long conversation with a bright person who made a show of sharing your concerns, but was only pretending to listen.

Why would Israel want to make itself directly answerable to a foreign country when not strictly necessary?

If you read the post you’re replying to, you would have read that I suggested a co-conspiracy. That means the US was already “in”, for its own purposes, not necessarily having anything to do with Israel’s.

In any case, that post has been long superseded by more interesting posts.

Actually, Israel was doing just fine on its own in the 6-day war. Assuming your scenario, which I don’t think is at all supported by any evidence or logic, bringing in the US would take away the independence of Israel to decide what to do with the conquered territories. Why would Israel want to make itself directly answerable to a foreign country when not strictly necessary?

This could be the answer to the conundrum: perhaps LBJ wanted to muscle in on Israel’s successful war effort for his own domestic purposes (1968 elections, etc), perhaps by posing as peacemaker etc. On a winning streak and with memories of the 1956 Suez crisis still fresh, Israel may NOT have wanted to share the laurels of its daring blitzkrieg with LBJ, and would not have wanted to become the South Vietnam in the relationship. Remember what happened to Ngo Dinh Diem – JFK had him offed in 1963, but JFK also found himself ferried across the Styx just weeks later.

This scenario would certainly explain the perplexing Israeli decision to attack a de facto ally with no perceptible benefit to itself.

Another alternative mentioned before is that Israel knew or had strong reason to believe that USS Liberty intelligence product was finding its way to Egyptian or Syrian military leaders.

Interesting info, thanks.

Was struck by this snippet:

A 1981 history report re-released with the NSA recordings shows two routes for airborne collection platforms during the 1967 Six-Day War.

So the transcripts were published in 1981? Are they in the Library of Congress? Surely somebody must have copies?

What is striking is that Israel did deal with the matter after a fashion, admitted that they had effected the attack, paid some compensation, and conducted public (and no doubt also internal) inquiries. Not entirely surprisingly, the public conclusion was that the attack was a case of mistaken identity, but nobody denies that the attack occurred.

By contrast, in the U.S. we have now had five decades of people telling us in some detail about what is in the much-vaunted transcripts, tantalizing moments of people telling us they heard the communications live on the air, etc., but the actual transcripts have never been seen. One suspects that 50 years on, the U.S. is still hiding SOMETHING that remains embarrassing to U.S. players in 2017.

Could we be looking at a huge charade where the ongoing talk about tapes and transcripts is merely part of an ongoing cover-up/misdirection to hide something MORE embarrassing on the U.S. side of this sad incident?

Well, if the event is the attack on the Liberty then it would not have happen had the Navy been competent at communicating with and among ships.

You mean U.S. Navy?
An interesting point.

I don’t see any cover-up

Don’t know what to say, really.

Actually, Israel was doing just fine on its own in the 6-day war. Assuming your scenario, which I don’t think is at all supported by any evidence or logic, bringing in the US would take away the independence of Israel to decide what to do with the conquered territories. Why would Israel want to make itself directly answerable to a foreign country when not strictly necessary?

And the reply that Israel would have been confident of its control over US policy wouldn’t hold water. Eisenhower forced Israel, Britain, and France to withdraw from the Sinai in 1956.

I support an open inquiry into the Liberty incident, but most of the alternatives presented here just don’t hold water.

But, for the crux of the event, not important, IMHO.

Well, if the event is the attack on the Liberty then it would not have happen had the Navy been competent at communicating with and among ships.

I don’t see any cover-up. I see the normal lack of interest in examining the circumstances of warfare and the evaluation of the military’s actions, inactions and competency and the general reluctance to hold anyone responsible in the government in general and the military in particular for adverse events.

Did we get that report on the Tomahawk missile attack in Syria yet, or did I just miss it?

The only one that I have is whether or not the intelligence community deliberately diverted the Navy communications. My guess would be yes, but I don’t see how one could ever get at the facts.

Agree.
The reason could be just “we are more important than you” (turf battle), even some ego issue of some high placed individual. But, for the crux of the event, not important, IMHO.

A more interesting question is why some people keep focusing on the Liberty incident.

That, well…..true.
Discussing that, here, could be an exhausting exercise.

But, does make a lot of sense, actually.
Not about the incident itself so much. I guess we, until some new evidence comes in, could be rather clear as what and why happened.

But, the COVER-UP is totally different, and much more important issue.

Again, as some people already have said:if PTBs have been able to cover up this, what else they have covered up?
And, the sheer power to execute it. And the helplessness of holoi poloi to uncover it. Not cannon fodder on the ship, but even members of top echelon of military and intelligence community.

THAT is important.

I, personally, believe that poking at this, relentlessly, could help there.
At least: “You can pull it of, yes, but you shall not be smug about it”.
Or “You do have power, but we see it, we are not stupid”.
And, well, one thing at the time. This, that…bits and pieces of stuff like this can create a critical mass in public consciousnesses.
Didn’t Trump victory show that people do not like to be taken for fools?
Anyway…..

I can tell you that, far from taking a “a few weeks” to get a transcript in a critical situation like this, it was more like a few hours before the first relatively complete and accurate translations were available, while some other information and reports were sent “in near real-time.”

I know because that was my job. During this time, I was serving as an analyst for Air Force Security Service, and was also qualified as a linguist.

The guys chosen for airborne were at the top of the class of an already highly select group. We on the ground kept close tabs on these airmen while they were flying their missions.

In his 2003 lawsuit, Cristol cites Dr. Marvin E. Nowicki, who, as a U.S. Navy chief petty officer on an airborne collection platform the day of the attack, recorded voice transmissions of the Israeli attackers. Nowicki’s platform was a Navy EC-121 flying out of Air Force Security Service station USA-512J, a joint (“J”) station operated with the Navy.

According to the NSA, a Navy EC-121 had collected the transmissions. Follow-up NSA reports, however, state that the released transmissions were recorded by an airborne collection platform flying out of station USA-556. Because USA-556 was not a joint station, the airborne platform simply could not have been a Navy EC-121. Nowicki’s recordings are still at-large.

A 1981 history report re-released with the NSA recordings shows two routes for airborne collection platforms during the 1967 Six-Day War. One route was for Navy EC-121s, the other for Air Force C-130s. Besides operating control, there is a key difference between the EC-121 and the C-130. The former recorded and stored intercepts, which were analyzed after landing. C-130s, on the other hand, transmitted real-time to Air Force Security Service stations around the world.

Some former Air Force intelligence analysts said they read the complete real-time transmissions of an Air Force platform (this must have been USA-556, unless yet a third platform recorded the attack). Not only did the transmissions prove beyond a doubt that the attack was deliberate, but the analysts received a follow-up NSA report explicitly stating such. Yet, they later were ordered to destroy all copies.

https://www.washingtonreport.me/2006-may-june/uss-liberty-and-the-nsa-one-deceit-too-many.html

An Israeli military court of inquiry later acknowledged that their naval headquarters knew at least three hours before the attack that the odd-looking ship 13 miles off the Sinai Peninsula, sprouting more than 40 antennas capable of receiving every kind of radio transmission, was “an electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy,” a floating electronic vacuum cleaner.

The Israeli inquiry later concluded that that information had simply gotten lost.

Yeah, right. The Liberty information was “lost” in the same way that two tapes recorded by Nowicki and Prostinak have gotten lost:

One tape, designated A1104/A-02, begins at 2:29 p.m. local time, just after the Liberty was hit by the torpedo. Prostinak said there was a preceding tape, A1104/A-01.

That tape likely would have recorded much of the attack, which began with the air assault at 1:56 p.m. Prostinak said a second tape, which preceded one beginning at 3:07 p.m., made by another linguist aboard the same plane, also appeared to be missing.

As soon as the EC-121 landed at its base in Athens, Prostinak said, all the tapes were rushed to an NSA facility at the Athens airport where Hebrew translators were standing by.
[...]
One set of transcripts apparently survived in the archives of the U.S. Army’s intelligence school, then located at Ft. Holabird in Maryland.

W. Patrick Lang, a retired Army colonel who spent eight years as chief of Middle East intelligence for the Defense Intelligence Agency, said the transcripts were used as “course material” in an advanced class for intelligence officers on the clandestine interception of voice transmissions.

“The flight leader spoke to his base to report that he had the ship in view, that it was the same ship that he had been briefed on and that it was clearly marked with the U.S. flag,” Lang recalled in an e-mail.

“The flight commander was reluctant,” Lang said in a subsequent interview. “That was very clear. He didn’t want to do this. He asked them a couple of times, ‘Do you really want me to do this?’ I’ve remembered it ever since. It was very striking. I’ve been harboring this memory for all these years.”

–New revelations in attack on American spy ship, John Crewdson, Chicago Tribune, Oct. 2, 2007

Thanks. There are not that many unanswered questions concerning the incident. The only one that I have is whether or not the intelligence community deliberately diverted the Navy communications. My guess would be yes, but I don’t see how one could ever get at the facts.

A more interesting question is why some people keep focusing on the Liberty incident.

Tried to find some more info around re that particular element.
This link is full of decent information, before it, as always, descends into multiple quote/reply and name calling. Amazing how people slip into that so easily.
So, I gave up at around page 7.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/9846-the-uss-liberty-incident/

Picked up something within first couple of pages:

This statement by Stephen Forslund (US Air Force intelligence analyst) is clear enough: “The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target, which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller. The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace.”

He is contradicted by two of the three NSA Hebrew linguists who we actually know heard the Israelis (live or on tape).

Richard W. Hickman was an NSA linguist who served aboard the USNS Jose Valdez and was friends with people on the Liberty. He translated the NSA intercepts and had briefed the Director of the National Security Agency Lieutenant General Marshal S. Carter on them at NSA headquarters in June 1967. He told Judge Cristol the following:
So, because of the fact that I lost a good friend in Al and of course NAVSECGRU shipmates and other wounded civilians – I was ready to blame the Israelis, along with everyone else who was angry. But, based on what I heard, both from eyewitnesses and the tapes, my conclusion has always been that it was a case of mistaken identity.

In 1980 he was interviewed by William Gerhart, Henry Millington, Hank Schorreck and Robert Farley for a NSA 1981 report on the incident and had said basically the same thing based on what he head the Israelis were confused.

Dr. Marvin Nowicki (a friend of Hickman’s) was the US Navy supervisor on the EC-121 aircraft who heard the actual Israel Air Force radio transmissions, in Hebrew, on 8 June 1967 and thereafter listened to the tapes in Hebrew (Nowicki was an NSA/Navy trained Hebrew linguist). He also concluded based on what he heard the attack was accidental. He told James Bamford
“As you know, Jim Ennes and members of the Liberty crew are on record stating the ship was deliberately attacked by the Israelis. I think otherwise. I have first hand information, which I am sharing with you. I was present on that day, along with members of an aircrew in a COMFAIRAIRRECONRON TWO (VQ-2) EC-121M aircraft flying some 15,000 feet above the incident. As I recall, we recorded most, if not all, of the attack. Further, our intercepts, never before made public, showed the attack to be an accident on the part of the Israelis.”

So, there it is………
I guess that’s it.

Good observations about organizational behavior.

Re jamming, as detailed in #277, the USS Liberty could certainly have TRANSMITTED an alert “blind” despite the fact that their RECEIVERS were jammed. But it would not be surprising if the radiomen failed to consider this in the heat of the moment. They did, of course, continue trying valiantly and actually managed to establish two-way communications with the U.S. Navy, so ultimately the attempted jamming served only to delay.

Alternative scenario: as mentioned in a previous post, one should consider the possibility that the Israelis knew or strongly suspected something that objectively made the USS Liberty a dire threat to Israel at that particular time. In other words, perhaps they did not over-react or suddenly go crazy, but acted with cold rationality based on knowledge (or suspicions) that are still classified.

Possibilities include information being passed to Egypt (perhaps through spies within the U.S. intelligence or military services), or perhaps LBJ wanting to enter yet another war in a manner that Israel considered deleterious.

To respond to the direct questions: it sounds to me as if both Forslund and Gotcher are reporting third-hand information.

Forslund seems to say that he was part of the military hierarchy that would have received some information. However, it could well be that he is in retrospect attributing to the ground station statements that he believes they would have said in light of what transpired later. There is no indication that Forslund himself heard the communications or understands Hebrew.

Gotcher seems to have been in far-away Vietnam and probably heard about the incident through the grapevine, without authorization. Again, one suspects that alleged statements were attributed to the ground station based on what later transpired. Again, there is no indication that Gotcher himself heard or saw the communications himself, or that he understands Hebrew.

As Mr. Unz has pointed out (and I fully agree), even if there were solid intercept recordings of various transmissions, getting these turned into decent, usable transcripts for a “post-mortem” would have taken at least days if not weeks.

If anyone wants to argue about what was actually said, I want to SEE what was actually said. If the records don’t exist, third-hand hearsay from people with a stake in the matter is merely a distraction.

Apologies for sounding formal.

My question.
Q:So, the question for you then, would be: what’s your take on these statements?

I guess your answer is:
A:These claims strike me as exaggeration and back-filling. Getting such intercepts and transcripts is not as easy as it sounds.

Then, it looks, to me, as those two statements, then, could be taken as not reliable.
Especially when discussing the magnitude of the crime.

Again, the absence of transcripts of pilot communications does not mean that Israel did not attack the USS Liberty.

Well….of course. I am, at this stage, just trying to figure out some details.
The most important, which one:
“Conspiracy to sink and murder” by Israeli leadership at the time.
“Grave mistake and attempt to cover it by following through the mistake” by certain elements of Israeli CiC then and there.
“Grave mistake caused by institutional arrogance, lack of professionalism and incompetence, with tons of who cares attitude, including certain callousness”.
“Grave mistake only, caused by institutional arrogance, lack of professionalism and incompetence”.
And, of course, put ‘fog of war” everywhere with pinch of men and material exhaustion.

No wonder one can spend a lifetime trying to untangle all this now.

A very efficient cover-up indeed.

Re-read the thread above, and my other comments under this post.

Check if you like – I have pointed out for the longest time (including under previous stories on this sad incident) that the U.S. did have virtually real-time knowledge of the fact that the USS Liberty was attacked by Israeli forces, in part through signals intelligence complemented by humint from Israel and Egypt.

There is no need, however, to over-egg the pudding by claiming to have word-for-word transcripts of communications with and among the pilots. These claims strike me as exaggeration and back-filling. Getting such intercepts and transcripts is not as easy as it sounds since the Israelis will have taken at least basic steps to avoid easy interception of their communications. Also, how many U.S. analysts had functional Hebrew back then? If the NSA has the original Hebrew, let’s see them. Linguistic and historical experts can easily check them for consistency with Israeli military usage at the time. If the NSA mysteriously lost the original transcripts, then we are looking at government types asking us to “trust us.”

Remember the Israelis were well aware that the U.S. Navy was nearby and would be trying to listen in.

Again, the absence of transcripts of pilot communications does not mean that Israel did not attack the USS Liberty.

Ah….

There is a huge difference between intercepting and tape-recording raw transmissions, and disentangling and analyzing signals, voices, etc. in those transmissions, followed by the challenging process of translating pilot jargon from Hebrew – a language little spoken outside Israel then. A time estimate of several weeks sounds about right.

Could you expand on this please?

Reason:
The most damning for Israel are two statements I’ve found (so far….) on Internet.
They were, apparently, listening in REAL TIME. Or, better, having transcripts in real time (so, with a bit of delay, of course).
From one of my posts above here they are, for clarity:

Steve Forslund, an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha

“The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors.”

And

James Gotcher, now an attorney in California, who was then serving with the Air Force Security Service’s 6924th Security Squadron, an adjunct of the NSA, at Son Tra, Vietnam

“around the time Liberty got off a distress call, the controllers seemed to panic and urged the aircraft to ‘complete the job’ and get out of there.”

So, the question for you then, would be: what’s your take on these statements?

However, the idea that the U.S. had full or even adequate intercepts of ground-to-air and air-to-air communications strikes me as slightly doubtful.

Well, what slightly puzzles me is sort of, I haven’t seen, so far, a REPLAY of all that anywhere.

I am NOT an expert in that particular area. You know, particulars of that hardware, frequencies, media at time/place, procedures, let alone physical layout of all the assets at the time.

I’ll use an example from similar subject.
Tactics, for example.

A battle happened.
If one wants to understand that battle, well, that one has to, essentially, REPLAY it a lot of times to really get it. Even walk the battlefield. Move around it, even, in similar gear.
Good example of that is the book “Not mentioned in dispatches” about a particular battle in Falklands war.

So, in this particular case, say, this, “jamming” thing.
If we want to do it right I mean, not having a pub conversation.

Well, where is a reconstructed map of the event, for example, just for starters.
Ship…jammers……detailed data about the jammers, operators..the works.
That’s how, say, land forces guys reconstruct a battle. Create a map first with all the players.
And then move the pieces. And again, and again…

So, has anyone in all these years replayed the event re “jamming” wise?
I could probably easily replay the boat attack if I want. Would require a lot of additional digging and a lot of work, but, can be done. Personally, haven’t been looking for it much, but what I’ve found recently isn’t much.
THAT makes me wonder a bit.

Some ‘flyboy” can easily reply air attack.

As I mentioned before it’s standard police procedure when putting a murder case together.
So, where is the similar for this?
That Slade’s material is the closest I’ve found, and, well…..not that great really. Almost as preamble/outline.

The short answer is that jamming aims at a RECEIVER not at a transmitter. The aim is to overwhelm the targeted transmitter’s signal as seen by the receiver.

Oh ya — change the subject from shooting up life boats – to a broad discussion of signal jamming — how clever of these loser hasbara Jews.

The Jews are so clever, that payback can never happen to them. When the old lies fail, they always have a new set of lies on the ready.

If you do not like their new lies, they will attack you – call you bad names. They will always find a way to be the victim again. (Jews are always top victim.)

Think Peace — Art

p.s. Problem for these losers — “you cannot lie to everyone all the time.”

In the earlier thread referenced by Mr. Unz above, Mr. Unz suggested the following explanation which seems to make eminent sense (emphasis added):

The NSA naturally has all the [raw] radio intercepts between the Israeli pilots and their military commanders, repeatedly ordering them to destroy the U.S.S. Liberty and leave no survivors (I suspect there’s actually a chance that their failure was partly due to their considerable reluctance to follow such seemingly astonishing orders). Since those radio intercepts were presumably swept up along with everything in the entire region, it presumably took them at least a few weeks to separate those out and get them translated from the Hebrew.

There is a huge difference between intercepting and tape-recording raw transmissions, and disentangling and analyzing signals, voices, etc. in those transmissions, followed by the challenging process of translating pilot jargon from Hebrew – a language little spoken outside Israel then. A time estimate of several weeks sounds about right.

Given that there were NSA dead, the agency would have found ways to disregard presidential orders to destroy all evidence.

This does on the face of it answer the original question – where are the original Hebrew transcripts or re recordings?

However, the idea that the U.S. had full or even adequate intercepts of ground-to-air and air-to-air communications strikes me as slightly doubtful. Technically, it would have been possible, but it was not a trivial undertaking given where the incident happened (on the Mediterranean, off the coast of Sinai).

Somewhat ironically, if there were such intercepts, they most likely came from the USS Liberty itself, thus proving the danger an signals intelligence ship can pose to military operations.

Perhaps the Israelis suspected or even knew that intelligence gathered by the Liberty was filtering through to Cairo or Moscow, in addition to causing problems for Israel in DC.

To the extent that this shocking story has been completely covered up for fifty years by almost the entire American MSM, aided and abetted by numerous “useful idiots,” you should ask yourself what *else* they might be covering up…

As Mr. Unz has been pointing out for a long time, the BIG story here is a U.S. story – what ELSE have the U.S. media, in cahoots with the Deep State, been covering up over the past 50 years? It is an AMERICAN story.

Re USS Liberty, it has long been clear clear that Israel did bomb and try to sink the USS Liberty. There is an ongoing debate about what the Israelis THOUGHT they were accomplishing (and, separately, what they may in fact have accomplished in tactical terms).

Three basic scenarios have been suggested: (1) Israel saw the USS Liberty’s operations as an impediment to its war objectives (e.g. Golan, Sinai) and reluctantly but intentionally decided to attack a known U.S. vessel; (2) there was some kind of error along the line, e.g. the vessel was thought to be Egyptian flying a false flag; or (3) Israeli leadership or parts of it (military) succumbed to hubris, and decided to avail themselves of the opportunity e.g. to retaliate for U.S. interference in the Suez crisis.

What is not in doubt is that over 50 years, the U.S. government opted to misrepresent, and the U.S. media opted to mis-report, what was actually known to the NSA, U.S. Navy and entire U.S. government, and what was readily discoverable to the media with a modicum of effort. Indeed, one suspects that the story was widely whispered about throughout Washington at the time given the large number of people who must have been in the know and the highly emotional undertones of the story.

“the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. ”

The short answer is that jamming aims at a RECEIVER not at a transmitter. The aim is to overwhelm the targeted transmitter’s signal as seen by the receiver.

To jam a receiver, a jamming signal must be emitted to cover the opponent’s transmission. Since the strength of radio signals decreases with the square of the distance from the respective transmitters (original signal and jamming signal), it is advantageous to place the jamming transmitter close to the targeted receiver. If the opponent’s transmitter is 100 miles from the receiver, then a jamming signal of equal strength emitted from 50 miles away will appear 4 times as strong as the opponent’s transmitter to the opponent’s receiver, so the opponent’s desired signal is effectively jammed.

What does this mean? It would have been relatively easy to jam INCOMING signals that the USS Liberty would try to receive from U.S. naval vessels etc. This would still leave the USS Liberty the ability to transmit an SOS-type signal blindly (without being able to hear any responses).

The USS Liberty would have been in routine contacts with land-based NSA stations in Egypt or elsewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean, as well as with military stations such as U.S. Navy units.

The idea that transmitting antennas on the Libery would have been completely destroyed etc. sounds dubious. We are basically talking about long wires strung along the deck of the Liberty. Also, there would be several sets of antennas for different wavelengths, directionality etc. Lastly, it is quite easy to jury-rig a simple antenna within 20 minutes. Of course, the “fog of war” can complicate even simple operations.

BOTTOM LINE: the USS Liberty probably remained able to transmit calls for help but MAY have been handicapped in receiving responses on standard frequencies. These handicaps were probably overcome within 15-30 minutes by trying different frequencies etc. that could not be comprehensively jammed.

So your contention is that Israel could set up a broadband (HF, VHF, UHF frequencies that would constitute the communications frequencies of the IDF) jamming network, from either Israel or Sinai, generate enough ERP in the direction of the USS Liberty to kill any signal intelligence, and this is not “necessarily” going to be harmful to Command, Communications and Control (C3) of the IDF.

Wow. What an administrative undertaking, even if you had the hardware at hand, to set up such a communications denial network, in the space of a few hours.

As compared to just ordering the AF and Navy to kill it.

I have just thought, and written, of the reasons why the Israelis wouldn’t have been cincerned about the US discovering that they were about to take the Golan Heights – assuming it hadn’t been squared with the US anyway. Landlines and encryption are the answer. And if one assumes that a lot of radio traffic near the Golan Heights might have been detected, so what? How long is it going to take for that to be turned into definite knowledge of Israeli plans? Days… if ever. If the US was interested it could have sent U2s flying over Israel/Palestine.

Your answer is a bit vague too inasmuch as the excessive undirected radiatiiin from jamming focusses on one ship isn’t necessarily going to be harmful to the jamming side. And of course the Israelis would have been able to use landlines and encryption which sould at least cause sufficient delay. That last actually goes close to sinking the protection of secrecy for the Golan Heights attack as a motive for attacking the Liberty.

Will try, in my own time, to dig more

The USS Liberty “incident” is a favorite here at Unz. Please come back and share your results with us as good information is always welcomed by some of us. The 2nd to last time this incident floated to the surface here, I did a little research myself. I found the obituary of the “Jewish Officer” from the USS Liberty who “cried” when he saw the Star of David on the attacking planes. Turns out he was a Deacon in a Pentecostal Church in Virginia for most of his life. Needless to say he was not the same witness who described planes as having no identifying markings.

Back a few years ago, there was a major Chicago Tribune article by a couple of their top journalists finally “breaking the MSM blockade” on the story, with a number of quoted sources. Also, I think there’s a public NSA report that says the same thing.

This one :
http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html

Now, this won’t make me much popular around, but………..

I’ve gone through all that, really damning material and, well, I am not positive it was “conspiracy to sink and murder”.
When I say that I mean conspiracy of the higher echelons of Israeli political and military leadership at the time.

The only statement I’ve found that could point to that is:

Steve Forslund, an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha

“The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors.”

That last part.

The next level is, mistake was made, it was recognized, and decision, on the fly, was made to cover the crime.
This one:
James Gotcher, now an attorney in California, who was then serving with the Air Force Security Service’s 6924th Security Squadron, an adjunct of the NSA, at Son Tra, Vietnam
around the time Liberty got off a distress call, the controllers seemed to panic and urged the aircraft to ‘complete the job’ and get out of there.”

For me, the rest points to, again, “mistake, arrogance, criminal negligence and total lack of professionalism”.

I’ll try to explain.

Jet pilots, apparently, recognized the ship as US, but controllers/superiors kept ordering them to keep attacking because they simply didn’t trust pilots’ observation/judgement.
“US flag you say, so what….Egyptians simply put the flag there”.
“Looks as US ship…..you are wrong, it isn’t…obey the order”.

Also, less likely, controllers/headquarters just didn’t care. That element, “didn’t care”, isn’t that implausible as it sounds. The war was going on for 4th day now. The pilots, controllers and headquarters were, IMHO, exhausted, emotionally spent, brutalized and desensitized.What is a crew of a US ship on top of thousands of dead and crippled all around in the last couple of days……….Own Israeli casualties were (yes, Wikipedia…) 776–983 killed and 4,517 wounded.

So, I guess that “deliberate” can be taken on a couple of levels.

Conspiracy to sink and murder.
Cover own mistake.
Just don’t care.

Anyway, this is something.
Hell, if I’d known all this before I wouldn’t have even started posting in this thread.
This here is nothing compared to all that material already available on Internet (plus some books). Including official documents.

Cover-up, itself, IS scary.
Now, if one isn’t an American, he/she could think:”You know, if they can pull this against their own people…imagine what they can do to us”.

Not good.

Anyway, I am out of this topic here.
Will try, in my own time, to dig more, especially related to Steve Forslund and James Gotcher stuff.

The histrionics on threads like this by Israel-firsters, hasbara trolls and associated eccentrics really are a sight to behold.

“The truth hurts” has never been truer.

next – the “six million lie” is to follow.

Holocaust denial? Say it ain’t so, Arts.

Sorry – I polled all 88 of my IQ’s – it was 88 to zero – the six million is a lie!

Got to go with my guys.

Think Peace — Art

next – the “six million lie” is to follow.

Holocaust denial? Say it ain’t so, Arts.

Where are the original untranslated transcripts in Hebrew? How exactly are they phrased?

“If the gloves do not fit – you cannot convict!” Simpson was guilty – so too are the Jews guilty of the USS Liberty attack.

You hasbara losers can post a million billion comments – but the truth comes out – 9/11 is next – the “six million lie” is to follow.

Think Peace — Art

Where are the original untranslated transcripts in Hebrew?

Well, maybe

A few days after the report arrived, another message came through directing the document control officer to gather and destroy all copies of both the rough and final intercept transmissions, as well as the subsequently issued report. After the destruction of these documents, I saw nothing further on the subject.

and

I was a witness to the collection and order to destroy ALL traffic regarding the attack on the USS Liberty

answer that question.

And if those three guys I’ve found on Internet are telling the truth…….
And I found them just in 5 minutes, after Googling “Forslund Liberty”,was just checking on “Sparkon” quote at #262.
Something is just not right.

The transcript [of radio communications] … that in 1967 rolled off the teletype machine …

So the transcript just “rolls of the teletype machine.”

How many U.S. military or NSA personnel were fluent in Israeli Hebrew in 1967?

Since this was obviously a crucial event at the time, the whole sequence of communications would have been the subject of multiple internal investigations in the wake of the incident. Where are the original untranslated transcripts in Hebrew? How exactly are they phrased?

The fact that this incident has been buried from history, and that few Americans know anything about it at all, is damning evidence of the perfidy behind the attacks.

USAF intelligence analysts have stated that they have read the transcripts of Israeli communications before, and during the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty. Those documents make it crystal clear–beyond any shadow of doubt–that the attack was intentional.

The transcript published by the Jerusalem Post bore scant resemblance to the one that in 1967 rolled off the teletype machine behind the sealed vault door at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha, where Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force.

“The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it,” Forslund recalled. “The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag.

“The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors.”

Forslund said he clearly recalled “the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely.”

“He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots’ responses that it didn’t sink.”

Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. “Everybody saw these,” said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military.

Forslund’s recollections are supported by those of two other Air Force intelligence specialists, working in widely separate locations, who say they also saw the transcripts of the attacking Israeli pilots’ communications.

One is James Gotcher, now an attorney in California, who was then serving with the Air Force Security Service’s 6924th Security Squadron, an adjunct of the NSA, at Son Tra, Vietnam.

“It was clear that the Israeli aircraft were being vectored directly at USS Liberty,” Gotcher recalled in an e-mail. “Later, around the time Liberty got off a distress call, the controllers seemed to panic and urged the aircraft to ‘complete the job’ and get out of there.”

Six thousand miles from Omaha, on the Mediterranean island of Crete, Air Force Capt. Richard Block was commanding an intelligence wing of more than 100 analysts and cryptologists monitoring Middle Eastern communications.

The transcripts Block remembered seeing “were teletypes, way beyond Top Secret. Some of the pilots did not want to attack,” Block said. “The pilots said, ‘This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?’

“And ground control came back and said, ‘Yes, follow orders.’”

New revelations in attack on American spy ship
John Crewdson, Tribune senior correspondent
Chicago Tribune
October 2, 2007

Because as I have pointed, you have to generate a sufficient RF field strength to degrade the S/N ratio of the received signal, in this case the received signal of USN command chain. Your statement is vague.
Do you mean engage in broadband (“comprehensive”) jamming in order to prevent reception of signal intelligence? That would result in communications fratricide on the part of Israeli forces; no antenna, however directional, has zero radiation outside of it’s forward lobe.

Wiz,

I trust Mr. Giraldi will (wisely) not respond to your hasbara comment # 257 so I will.

Israeli mass murder of the USS Liberty crew also served as an unspeakable EXPERIMENT.

Axiomatic was Israeli foreknowledge that the Liberty’s cry for military help would be denied, and they knew the LBJ administration would not hold them accountable for the mass murder at sea.

Key to the demonic experiment was to prove how the U.S. “Prestige Press” and TV news channels would reliably “water down” Israel’s murder of American sailors and not provoke a great public outcry for justice.

Despite the present American Legion’s noble murmur, Israel’s Liberty experiment succeeded mightily and the results hold to this very day. There will be no accountability!

Such early experimental success (1967) gave Israel great confidence to do the 9/11 mass murders & wage subsequent immoral wars, minus a smigeon of accountability and having to undergo real U.S. investigations and justice being served.

Nice show, eh?

(Sigh) Sharing interests with the Wizards of Tel Aviv, you are just a farm hand Wizard of Crawford Ranch. Sad, the trick is on you.

Selah.

See #257

See #257.

PG…. would you not agree that the most plausible rational motive for Israeli villainy actually becomes implausible on inspection? I refer to the Israelis treating the US spying on their communicatiins as hostile, and dangerous inasmuch as the intention to attack the Golan Heights and the treatment of POWs in Gaza might be disclosed.

Objection 1. Why would the Israelis assume that the US would not know from other sources than the Liberty? At least why would they be so sure that they would attempt mass murder against Americans?

Objection 2. Why wouldn’t the Israelis simply engage in comprehensive jamming from shore, ship and plane? Failure at that would be a lot less risky than failure at wiping out 294 Americans.

OMG I’ve just followed the link enough to read the assertion that the Israelis attacking USS Liberty and trying to kill “every one of its 294 crew” (or words to that precise effect) without an “explicit order to the IDF to that effect” from President Johnson. C’mon, why rely on nut cases who can write that sort of tripe.

Excuse me not leaping to find out more of what an author who wrote a book with that title says on an important historical subject when I haven’t yet read Robert Caro’s renowned biography of LBJ. Have you read what Caro says about the issues raised here about Johnson’s mental stability, that alleged conversation about the Holy Ghost, the USS Liberty, relations with Macnamara etc.? If so, what does he say? If not why are you content to ignore the most authoritative writer about LBJ when you care so much about the possibly malign conection between him and the Liberty (beyond a degree of cover up because Israel had become a power in the ME)?

Agree.

I mean, we could write a Clancy type thick book about this.

From a pilot just realizing what he’s done, reporting all that to his immediate superior element, they processing all, reacting, passing it up their own (AirForce) and “aside” (Navy, Army).
Those higher levels realizing what’s being done, processing all that and giving orders, reporting “up” and informing “aside” again.
And all that flow most likely to the highest levels of Israeli military and political establishment at time. And back.
In the middle of war…….not just exercise went bad. With that technology. With that, apparently, Israeli attitude towards “staff work”.

How about visualizing, just recently, how the latest US destroyer collision went?Up, down, aside……?
With today’s technology and in peacetime.

Compare.
Draw, obvious, conclusions.

BTW, what exactly would you replicate?

The event. All of it. As a part of investigation.
In essence, REPLY the full scenario of the incident. In phases. Not live ammo of course, but close…
The closest example would be how police “reply” a murder. With the real suspect/perpetrator taken from jail/prison and back, if necessary.
US Government could have done it. Played Israelis by own guys/equipment.

Re the jammers on jets.
Plausible.

Still, for me, more plausible is, with all the current info I have, mostly from Slade’s material, that there was no jamming from the jets.

You appear to be knowledgeable of that particular part of the play.
O.K.
Could you please provide (a link would be good enough) info about those jets?
Type and, most important, ECCM equipment they carried at the time?

As of now, I know that there were two pairs of certain jets with certain weapons.
I am also aware of how they attacked the ship.
Makes sense to me.

You/ANYONE need to provide the type of the aircraft and the type of ECCM equipment they had.
It would be good to provide/explain, how they did it then (Slade provided as how they attacked the ship, from cannon to napalm, with corresponding casualties, damage etc.).
And I’d then, probably, make some sense of it.
At the moment it doesn’t.
True, I could be dumb.
Or, even better, who cares what I understand or not.

Still…….maybe some other people following this could find that helpful.

“Extraordinary ….evidence….”.

You seem to have a couple more IQ points than Art who whom it would be demeaning to answer even if one wasted time reading him, but your use of mere assertion and failure to add anything to your earlier assertion about Jews and Iranian civilization makes me wonder if you are up to elaborating what you mean by “intellectual dishonesty” and justifying your abusive generalisation.

Indeed complex possibilities rule, especially in times of great stress. And even “deliberately” isn’t so telling when you have to add “yes, but at what level?”.

“Two.
Frequences blocked by buzz signals.
Well, what were those frequencies? Could’ve they changed them? Was the all spectrum blocked? True, plenty of details here but easy to know and try to replicate it.
Three.
The most important detail here.
How did they know the jammers were on jets (multiples…..two or more….)?”

You raise interesting questions; too bad we are fifty-years past due for a thorough investigation. In defense of the USS Liberty crew, I am pretty sure if rockets are passing through crew compartments, sure as hell as a radio operator I am not going to run to the surveillance compartments and ask them to tune their spectrum analyzers to ascertain if a broadband or narrow-band jammer is being used. I would simply tune to daylight USN HF comm frequencies and determine if two-way information could be accomplished. A proper investigation during that time in 1967 would have answered the question easily (Did any shortwave radio listeners observe a broadband jammer?). BTW, what exactly would you replicate?

How do you know the jammers were on jets? The nature of RF emissions is a jammer has to be able to generate enough local RF Volts/Meter field strength in order to sufficiently degrade the signal/noise ratio of the particular modulation type in question. That in turn is a question of bandwidth. Morse code (CW) is harder to degrade than an SSB signal. That means that as the jets left and the local V/M of the jammer is observed to decrease on an S-meter or audibly goes down, you KNOW it was the aircraft(s) carrying RF emitters.

Roger Stone’s The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ includes this distressing passage:

Ronnie Dugger in hs book The Life and Times of Lyndon Johnson tells the story about LBJ having a long and deep conversation with Austrian ambassador, Dr. Ernst Lemberger. LBJ told Lemberger that he was being visited by God in the White House.

Dugger: “Didn’t the ambassador think, Johnson asked him, that the Holy Ghost might visit the leader of a very powerful country now that we had nuclear weapons? The ambassador still did not think so, and he told the president that he did not. With that, the president told him that he knew the Holy Ghost [God] was making such visitations, because the Holy Ghost was visiting him.

“Really!” the ambassador said, displaying amazement in a manner that conveyed acceptance.

Yes, President Johnson told the ambassador, the Holy Ghost was visiting him around two or three o’clock in the morning at about the time he received reports from Vietnam.”
[...]
LBJ was playing with nuclear hellfire and his mental instabilities were well known to people who had initimate dealings with him.

Maybe that is why Defense Secretary Robert McNamara…developed a curious case of amnesia when it came to the Liberty “incident.” McNamara did not mention the attack in his memoirs or that the Russians had to use the “hotline” with the Americans three times that day. June 8, 1967 was one of the most dangerous and intense days in US military history, yet McNamara would not mention it.

The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ
By Roger Stone
Chapter 21, Sinking Liberty

(my bold)

One more thing.

They were of Israeli pilots’ conversations, recorded during the attack. The intercepts made it “absolutely certain” they knew it was a U.S. ship, he said.

Was it in code or in clear?

If in code, was it along the “US ship, executing….” or “US ship…abort..abort…”?
If in clear even easier:
What they were EXACTLY saying? Plus tone, inflection…all of it. From then anyone could deduce was it, again “US ship, executing….” or “US ship…abort..abort…”.
“Conspiracy to sink and murder” or “a fuc*up of biblical proportions”?

Should be so simple.
As even any civilian incident management.

Too messy and complicated.
By both sides of this story.

Intellectual dishonesty is the hallmark of your posts on this forum. Supporting the mythological project of Eretz Israel by any means, while showing a hatred towards the old, noble, and rich Persian (Iranian) civilization, does not require taking seriously the “myths of the Hebrew Bible.” The exhilarating sense of “chosenness” is enough.

Wiz is a true Soldier of Zion – he has over 4,500 comments – most of them supporting Jews – telling outright lies, half-truths, obviations, distortions, and victimization screeds.

He should be very confident nowadays – with Javanka on the job in the White House.

Jared and Ivanka have their Jew hands on everything – foreign and domestic.

They are the modern-day Esther and Mordecai, twisting the head of the Persian King.

King Trump loves daughter Ivanka more than anything.

We do not realize it, but the Jews are dragging us into Old Testament biblical scenario.

Think Peace — Art

When the technicians jury-rigged an antenna in order to call for help, radiomen found the frequencies blocked by buzz saw signals from the jets

Well……
Getting there.
A bit too technical, but, let’s roll…..
Amidst all that carnage and damage on board technicians rigged the an antenna (ONE antenna). Then, the all system (from the antenna to all the parts to the operator and back) wasn’t working. Well, maybe because there was a damage/malfunction on any one/multiple parts of that communication system.
One.
We’d like to see diagnostics/checks run on all the system.
We’d like to know who was trying to operate the system (were they normal operators or those were incapacitated so some other guys tried to use it; their state of mind too at the time…..).
The same for techs doing the diagnostics/checks.
Two.
Frequences blocked by buzz signals.
Well, what were those frequencies? Could’ve they changed them? Was the all spectrum blocked? True, plenty of details here but easy to know and try to replicate it.
Three.
The most important detail here.
How did they know the jammers were on jets (multiples…..two or more….)?
What were those jets (Mirages, Mysteres or something else)?
We know that Israeli ECCM capabilities at the time weren’t great. We believe that both Mirages and Mysteres were diverted from original missions where they didn’t need to have any ECCM capability. Etc.
Again, “extraordinary claims…extraordinary evidcnce”.

You know what’s my take on this particular element?
Bullshit.
The crew tried to rig something, didn’t work and then they blamed it on…..something.

They were of Israeli pilots’ conversations, recorded during the attack. The intercepts made it “absolutely certain” they knew it was a U.S. ship, he said.

Slade’s material addresses that.
Jets realized it, passed the information along their command and control channel and it, apparently, got stuck there. Wasn’t delivered, in time, to parties involved. Procedural fuc&^p, incompetence, negligence…arrogance, as addressed, too, in Slade’s material.

Now……………there COULD HAVE BEEN another element in all that.
Whoever worked in such headquarters, centres etc. knows how those things work……….

You are a part of a team (say, several NCOs/techs, several junior officers, and a couple of senior officers, say, LtCol/Cmdr level with a full Colonel/Captain as a team leader). Just an example….

The “thing” is going down (exercise or real, doesn’t really matter).
There comes a moment in time when SOMEBODY (say, junior officer) in the team realizes “oh my God”. Say, your own guys (a recce platoon) are receiving friendly fire. He passes that information to LtCol. LtCol was supposed to organize/prevent that. He knows that his career and maybe even his freedom are on line. He ……..hesitates…………He wants the information checked. And then rechecked hoping it was a mistake, or, hoping it would somehow go away….praying that something will happen and he’ll survive a court marshal. Maybe somebody will do something. Maybe somebody will take the ownership of it somewhere else and he’ll be in clear.
Time is passing by…..The platoon is still receiving friendly fire.
Then, no more delays, the fact is clear. The LtCol passes that information to the Colonel. Well…..the Colonel has responsibility too here. He’ll be at least a witness on the court marshal. Never good for getting that star he’s worked so hard so far. He wants the information checked and rechecked. And the time is still ticking on…..that platoon is now really having hell there.
See the pattern……
That COULD HAVE HAPPENED in this case too.
From the pair leader->to his next level (Air Force HQ/center)->next level (Navy HQ/center) at least…….at least TWO places where a delay of that type could’ve been done.
So, it would be good to see the chain of communication in THAT case.

But, still, overall, Slade’s material, for me, is the closest to the truth at the moment.

“… the attack’s deliberateness ‘just was not a disputed issue’.”

Thanks Joe Stalin!

Israel always strikes with impunity and has no limit. They even have a free attack hand in Syria right now!

They will not be held accountable for the USS Liberty and 9/11 mass murders. Ditto their role in JFK’ murder.

Unaccountable, President Obama awarded the Netanyahu government with $3.8 billion annually for “defense,” and a ten (10) year expiration date.

In comment # 241, & with noble optimism, Miro23
predicts a day of reckoning where “the Ziocs get the recognition they deserve… and the US becomes an independent & respectable country.”

However, Israel’s most precious public possession is their undisputed control over our 3-branch government system, education included!

Presently, we have little choice but to compose ourselves, become aware of the evil which has befallen upon the US, brace ourselves, and avoid the disgrace of having to do homage to it.

Selah.

James Ennis’ “Assault on the Liberty” states that the US Navy communications frequencies were being jammed; whether they were from a broadband dedicated HF jammer or narrow-band HF transmitter thrown into service as an ad-hoc jammer I don’t know. Never got an answer from him as far as I can recall.

“When the technicians jury-rigged an antenna in order to call for help, radiomen found the frequencies blocked by buzz saw signals from the jets.”

Israeli Attack on U.S. Ship Reveals Failure of C3, James M. Ennis, Defense Electronics, October 1981

————

Former NSA Officials Agree

David C. Walsh

The jamming of unique U.S. frequencies during the Liberty incident seems to establish deliberate intent. And in exclusive interviews with this author, several former high-level National Security Agency (NSA) officials agree.

On 14 February 2003, the “godfather” of the NSA’s Auxiliary General Technical Research program, Oliver Kirby, noted that the Liberty was “my baby.” Within weeks of the calamity, Kirby, deputy director for operations/production, read U.S. signals intelligence (SigInt)-generated transcripts and “staff reports” at NSA’s Fort Meade, Maryland, headquarters. They were of Israeli pilots’ conversations, recorded during the attack. The intercepts made it “absolutely certain” they knew it was a U.S. ship, he said. Kirby’s is the first public disclosure by a top-level NSA senior of deliberate intent based on personal analyses of SigInt material.

In an interview on 24 February 2003, retired Air Force Major General John Morrison, the agency’s then-second-in-command (and Kirby’s successor), said he had been informed at the time of Kirby’s findings and endorsed them. Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom said on 3 March 2003 said that, on the strength of such data, the attack’s deliberateness “just wasn’t a disputed issue” within the agency. On 5 March 2003, retired Navy Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, NSA director from 1977-1981, said he “flatly rejected” the Cristol/Israeli thesis. “It is just exceedingly difficult to believe that [the Liberty] was not correctly identified.” He said this was based on his talks with NSA seniors at the time having direct knowledge. All four were unaware of any agency official at that time or later who dissented from the “deliberate” conclusion

Naval Institute Proceedings, June 2003

“And how many Jews do you know who take seriously as history the myths of the Hebrew Bible?”
Intellectual dishonesty is the hallmark of your posts on this forum. Supporting the mythological project of Eretz Israel by any means, while showing a hatred towards the old, noble, and rich Persian (Iranian) civilization, does not require taking seriously the “myths of the Hebrew Bible.” The exhilarating sense of “chosenness” is enough.

Conspiracy theories nearly always give far too much credit to the supposed conspirators for near flawless conception and execution. In this case I like to remind myself and others of the crass incompetence shown by Israel against the Turkish boat aiming to lift (symbolically anyway) the blockafe of Gaza. All they had to do was disable it by entangling its propellers amd then towing it 50 k offshore. Instead they boarded and killed a lot of people which ruptured their previously acceptable relations with Turkey.

By keeping their ship afloat, the valiant crew of the U.S.S. Liberty defeated treacherous and perfidious Israel, and the devious machinations of American traitors like LBJ, by achieving one of the greatest naval victories of all time.

When they get the recognition they deserve, and the traitorous events of 9/11 are also taught in schools, then the US will be well on the way to being an independent and respected country again.

Of course, the Ziocs will do everything they can to stop it.

My main problem with the “conspiracy to sink and murder”.

Why Israelis tried to do that so….wrong?

I mean, they’d been proven to be competent and ruthless killers.

Why not:
Observe the area with land based radar. Track the ship.
Usual procedure, a couple of guys easy to keep under control.
Get one plane to exactly pinpoint the ship (Mark I eyeball vs radar…).
Again, usual procedure, two guys tops in the cabin, easy to keep under control.
Ideally dispatch a submarine, but Israelis had problems with that. Backup option, torpedo boats.
Dispatch two torpedo boats and use the plane to vector them on the ship.
One boat should be enough, other for backup.
Number of people getting not ideal, but….
Approach the ship and signal (naval signal lamp, not radio) to “heave-to”.
Approach at one side to have a length of the ship in sights, get as close as practicable (minimum arming distance etc) , two torpedoes, and launch.
That should sink her.
Let’s skip grim work now…..morbid enough……

Overall, small battalion sized unit which could even train and rehearse together, iron out communications etc day before.
Easy to keep under, say, Special Forces/intelligence community umbrella.

Minimum fuss, minimum number of people involved, minimum electronics footprint……

Instead, do the opposite.

Just doesn’t make sense.

Israel has never had a more willing sycophant and eager butt-kisser than Lyndon Johnson, but now that his beloved Israel had crushed the Arab armies and air forces, why would LBJ be worried on June 7th?

Was it because he knew the Liberty would be attacked on June 8th?

What might the generals have had up their sleeves, had the Liberty gone down with all hands?

By keeping their ship afloat, the valiant crew of the U.S.S. Liberty defeated treacherous and perfidious Israel, and the devious machinations of American traitors like LBJ, by achieving one of the greatest naval victories of all time.

Betrayed by their own leaders, the USN heroes of the Liberty nevertheless prevented a successful false flag attack on their ship that might have been blamed on some scapegoat nation as justification for US military action.

There are no greater American heroes than the crew of the U.S.S. Liberty.

Certainly, nobody with any knowledge of military affairs has ever accepted Israel’s pathetic excuse of mistaken identity, but then, everyone knows we’re dealing with The World’s Biggest Liars.

Amazingly, for as much practice as they’ve had, they’re not very good at it, relying mostly on Chutzpah.

Oy vey! If it weren’t so tragic, it’d be funny.

But internal White House documents obtained from the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library show that the Israelis’ explanation of how the mistake had occurred was not believed.

Except for McNamara, most senior administration officials from Secretary of State Dean Rusk on down privately agreed with Johnson’s intelligence adviser, Clark Clifford, who was quoted in minutes of a National Security Council staff meeting as saying it was “inconceivable” that the attack had been a case of mistaken identity.

The attack “couldn’t be anything else but deliberate,” the NSA’s director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress.

“I don’t think you’ll find many people at NSA who believe it was accidental,” Benson Buffham, a former deputy NSA director, said in an interview.

New revelations in attack on Navy spy ship
John Crewdson, Chicago Tribune, Oct. 2, 2007

strengthening Commonsense Corner

Ah…you have, I feel, a fundamental misunderstanding of how the “Internet debate world” works.
This (I think a lady) said it well:
“….only a very few are interested in truth as can be discerned to the best of one’s ability- The rest just want, like high school, to follow the ‘in crowd’ and belong.”
I have it plastered on my desktops as a constant reminder.

Actually, I am impressed by this site so far.
The owner and moderators do tolerate different opinions.
Well, at least so far……

I’ve been on the Internet since its beginning.
The trend is unmistakable.

A site starts as a free exchange of ideas->groups form->groups get leaders->leaders, supported by groups jockey for primacy->when primacy is achieved (getting into moderators group) sooner or later (slower or faster), but definitely, the losing group is evicted.->newcomers either get ‘domesticated’ or evicted.
Always.

So, we’ll see how it goes here.

As for this event I also believe there is a fundamental error in finding the truth here.
People not accepting “conspiracy to sink and murder” are, apparently, supposed to provide evidence here.
Wrong.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.
If we accept that the even IS extraordinary……..well……

So, yes, your suggestion that author of the article or, IMHO, anybody else, asses that material does make a lot of sense.

Maybe there is a hope. Look at todays Daily Mail

The conspiracies that won’t go away: Brother of 9/11 victim claim the US orchestrated the atrocity as new study shows it was impossible that the third tower collapsed from fire

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4867124/9-11-conspiracy-theories-persist-16-years-atrocity.html#ixzz4s9YM7cg0

Well….you do have a point.

I am not a specialist in that area for sure.

The excerpt gist, still, remains. There was not any intentional jamming of Liberty’s transmissions.

The physical damage from bombing and strafing, casualties and overall “combat mindset” (polite expression for breakup of usual procedures under fire and having own dead and wounded around….) were a reason for temporary loss of communications.
We do know that the communication between Liberty and the torpedo boats was attempted by Aldis lamp, not any radio. Points to damaged equipment.

Again, I do not have (who has?) access to proper sources.

The fact is that Israel didn’t have good ECCM capability in general at the time.
It appears that of those they had none was deployed there.

Airplanes were able to communicate between themselves and their command.
Torpedo boats were able to communicate between themselves and their command.
Allowing all that communication while jamming all of Liberty communication…then..by Israel….well……..not likely.

All I know at the moment makes me agree with Mr. Slade’s material.

Thanks for strengthening Commonsense Corner. But, in the absence of a proper public inquiry it wluld be good to have Philip Giraldi firm up his authority and credibility by giving his assessment of that material. (After all most UR readers must want to be able to respect any opinion expressed by its regular contributors like PG, SS and JD).

Isn’t it a bit silly to talk of “Jews’ tribal hatred towards a much older, nobler, richer civilization” when the ancient, noble and rich civilization(s) and culture(s) were destroyed by Muslim and Mongol invaders? It reminds me of cant about Australian Aborigines having the oldest continuous living culture which, apart from ignoring the pygmies and Khoi San who didn’t leave Africa, implies rather insultingly that they learned nothing much in 50,000 years which included travels along the tropical coasta of South Asia. And how many Jews do you know who take seriously as history the myths of the Hebrew Bible?

“the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. ”

First time I’ve heard that. A ship designed for radio-electronic combat would have numerous and powerful RF transmitters and directional antennas separate from those used for signal intelligence gathering. In short, such transmitters would be a detriment to the NSA vessel’s primary mission of picking up low-level HF/VHF/UHF signals due to front-end desensitization. The primary receivers back in 1967 would probably be Nems-Clarke/ Watkins-Johnsons. ( http://watkins-johnson.terryo.org/history/Nems-Clarke-history.htm ) I’m not sure what kind of ECCM is even possible from the standpoint of deliberate jamming of US Navy communications frequencies, which has been confirmed by GTR-5 personnel. Jamming of an HF communications link is pretty simple, especially if you have a tunable transmitter and some sort of modulation device.

You got it all confused. “Dark occult forces” can be exposed from the very beginning based on the date of event, its location(s) and/or coordinates, the names of objects or people pertaining to it, digital description(s) as a whole and by parts, etc. The proven presence of occult (i.e., a proven beyond any doubts presence of digital alignment) excludes the accidental nature of that event. And this is already a lot. As for “Selah” – according to Wikipedia nobody knows what it is (perhaps you do ?!), but one of its 3 numeric explanations has everything to do with this case.

To the author of this article, Phil Giraldi.

Dear Mr. Giraldi:

You could have made a lot of progress against the Jewish lobby which you so despise if you had written back in about 2007 about how that same Jewish lobby and Israel have hypocritically cooperated with Turkey to deny the Christian Armenian genocide it committed and have also assisted Turkey in preventing the US Congress from recognizing that genocide with a simple resolution.

Of course, the hypocrisy is that the Jewish lobby and Israel always require the world to recognize the Holocaust and pay for restitution for that Holocaust while they help to deny the genocide of Christian Armenians (and Greeks and Assyrians).

So you see, sir, people will for their own reasons from time to time either help to cover up the misdeeds of the Jewish lobby and Israel or not cover an important issue an all.

http://www.jimrogers.com/content/stories/articles/bombing_of_chinese_embassy.html

There seems to be an understanding, among governments, that actions deemed hostile — especially in military theatres, undertaken by one government against another (friend or faux), can be neutralized with lethal force.

Sloppy slanders aren’t very effective. Mathilde (not Matilda) Krim’s husband was the important Democrat Arthur Krim. Where does your “Mordechai” come from.

Current day Esther and Mordechai — Javanka!

Think Peace — Art

RE, the Liberty “incident” when you sign up for the wermacht oops I mean USSA armed forces sometimes your orders come from scum running agendas having nothing to do with defending the USSA. I would suggest a perusal of The Secret War Against the Jews by John Loftus and Mark Aarons. If the Izzies wanted to sink that ship it would have been gone in the first pass. What it was doing is what the political prostitutes cannot afford to reveal

This is an Iffen-dream committee to stall the investigation in order to protect the sensibilities of the Lobby. The prominence of Tokyo-Rose McCain can’t be overlooked.
Meanwhile, there is finally a really reasonable solution to the Syrian crisis (considering that Israel continues bombing the sovereign state of Syria AFTER the defeat of ISIS, to compensate for the ISIS’ “problems”)
Comment section: “We need to send all Syrian refugees to Israel. Also, all of the African economic migrants…” http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-08/israel-launches-air-strikes-syria-and-assads-waiting-game
This very reasonable solution would bring the dear “moderate” jihadis directly to their most dedicated protectors, healers, and arms-dealers.
Your zoicon geniuses broke it, now they own it.

Maybe if it works for the USS Liberty, it might work for the JFK assassination.

Proper inquiry is required.

Yes, a Senate Select Committee to investigate the USS Liberty incident. Co-chaired by Sen. McCain and Graham with lead minority member Sen. Cardin.