It’s getting so one is more surprised to discover that the female leader of any country has children than to find out she is a Lesbian.

It’s exactly the other way around. The more Germans have invested in Poland the more careful they have to be to not lose their investments.

EU funds – very soon Poland will pay more than it receivs.

I lived in Warsaw for about a decade until last summer.
There is a visible rise in non-European migrants there, especially hanging around in the Zlote Tarasy shopping centre. There’s also a push in advertising to normalise non-whites – makeup and clothing companies being the main ones.
There is a massive urban/rural divide on things like politics, abortion and homosexuality. If, as in most countries, public opinion follows the cities then look for more ‘Western’ attitudes and liberalised laws on all these things. The PiS government will also encourage the pendulum to swing back the other way when people get tired of them. They aren’t so much nationalists as a mixed bag of contradictory and messy ideas.
The real reason that Poland will be brought in line is economic. The Polish economy is something along the lines of 45% foreign controlled, 45% state controlled and 10% Polish and private. Most of that foreign ownership is German. You can be as based and nationalist as you want, but it’s largely the Germans and the EU (through state funds) that will call the tune through economic control.
It’s sad to say about a country I love, but Poland is largely treated as a colony of Europe and not an integral part.

I checked: the latest estimate of Poland’s GDP (PPP) per capita
in 2018 is $31,000 vs $29,000 for Russia and $34,000 for Lithuania.
And unlike Russia Poland has virtually no oil or gas.

And what you described is already happening in Poland to some degree (the consumerism and materialism). with funds pumping in, plus a decent interior economy,
people forget their morals, and forget the debt part, and tons of foreign businesses showing up.

Let’s not get hysterical. Poland’s GDP grew by about
4.2%

Remittances

I’m surprised nobody mentioned the popularity of Boney M in the USSR.

Visegrad and East Europe, should get a bit richer (but not too the top).

Agreed, but a focus on wealth soon becomes an addiction. And consumerism is very seductive. You have to be very very cautious. Young people are incredibly prone to abandon traditional values in favour of money, consumer goods and fashion trends.

The bigger danger is the embrace of western pop culture that always accompanies increased wealth.

I can tell you one thing–ABBA sounded way better than Beach Boys and like Beach Boys were immediately recognizable from the first seconds of anything they sang. Their music was deeply Swedish folkish (after all Bjorn started playing in the Hootenannies which was Swedish folk band) and, in a larger musical sense European. They never even remotely approached blues. Just to demonstrate it–the only, to my knowledge, instrumental in ABBA’s arsenal–Intermezzo . It is as European as Bach, Mozart or Tchaikovsky.

It is also a Europe which doesn’t exist anymore, that is why sometimes it hurts to listen to them–sweet pain.

Yes, the countries of Europe had their own thing going back then, and it came through in their pop music, even when artists did their best to sound American. ABBA, for instance, tried hard to sound like the Beach Boys, but their songs are still firmly planted in their time and place. One reason I feel so protective of Slavic culture is that it still has some of that European sensibility.

Hmm, interesting, thanks. I have a hard time believing though that panslavism will become really viable as a political ideology given the asymmetries between Poland and Russia. And Balkan peoples seem quite different in mentality, culture etc. (iirc commenter AP doesn’t even consider them “real” Slavs).

Did Marley get play in Russia?

In USSR, well he was but he was not, as was Reggae, that huge. UB40 concerts in Moscow, IIRC, in mid-80s were sold out. USSR was always more, if we talk about majority of people, oriented towards either top-notch art/progressive rock and hard’n’heavy staff. You had on several orders of magnitude larger probability to hear in 1976 or 1977 from any window songs by Rainbow or Genesis than by Marley.

Good stuff! Actually, I was surprised later in life when I discovered Bob Marley and my parents told me they were listening to that way back in the day in Karachi. Did Marley get play in Russia?

Peace.

I can imagine, heh. I once heard an ABBA song in some old Soviet film, but I sadly can’t remember which.

Three major West’s Soviet (Russian) virginity-losing pieces of music in 1970s:

1. Uriah Heep “July Morning”;
2. Eagles “Hotel California”;
3. Pretty much any ABBA’s lyrical mid-tempo song.

Honorable mention: Smokie.

I distinctly remember me stoping having sex with pillows and having it with real girls in between three of those, I think. ABBA was absolutely huge and it is simply beautiful music. It is also a Europe which doesn’t exist anymore, that is why sometimes it hurts to listen to them–sweet pain.

The craziness of it is that I remember listening to ABBA in Pakistan in the early 80′s – they were a hit all the way out there.

The moment ABBA’s Arrival and self-titled albums were released in USSR in 1976 or 77 that was it. Of course, ABBA was known well before, but first those albums then their concert in Warsaw on TV–Soviet Union went insane. Jokes aside, and my progressive rock and fusion heavy fan background aside, ABBA are immortal. Still have most of their albums in both mine and wife’s cars. Nazia Hassan with her Disco Deewane was huge in Baku in 1980. Charming.

You sure like to dramatize. You also appear to be know-it-all on all things Polish, especially what Poles should think or do about things that directly concern them.

Also, Russia PPP GDP per capita is almost $29K (2018 estimate), so almost $30,000 as well, which is by the way almost identical to Latvia. So Russia even on average is not that far behind at all… So I’m not sure what’s your point exactly.

Lithuania is generally not that different from most ex-Eastern Bloc countries west of Ukraine… So Lithuania is not a huge positive outlier, nor is Russia a negative one.

I must say that I’m surprised that Lithuania’s GDP per capita is higher than Estonia’s (well, actually identical and not in nominal though).

Agreed. Being top wealth is not so good.

So I think something like the GDP PPP / capita of Poland to Italy is okay.
Once you get to US/Germany/Sweden levels, society is becoming more focused on money, and little else.

Visegrad and East Europe, should get a bit richer (but not too the top)..
I think from Czechia/Poland to Russia we can afford to have more children, with so much land.
Atm the rates are only 1.3-1.7 fertility. Also make sure not to become to Westernized,
but keep eye on technology not to fall behind.

Re: GDP growth is not going to save you.

I previously referred to GDP per capita, and how
Poland’s GDP per capita is still suboptimal (at
$30,000). I tend to divide countries into underdeveloped,
developed, and overdeveloped because I’m always
looking for Aristotelian optimality. Overdeveloped
countries (such as the U.S. and W. Europe) have done
a tremendous amount of damage to the world through
environmental degradation (e.g., Germany has one of
the lowest levels of biodiversity in Europe) and through
slavery and resource extraction. That’s one reason
I champion Central Europe (mostly V4)
as an optimal level of development. Belgium was a
colonialist power as recently as 1960, and it has the
nerve to tell Poland how to run its affairs. Germany
practiced slavery as recently as 1945. Also as someone
who thinks highly of Buddhism, I cannot stand countries
with huge national egos (mostly W. Europe and U.S.).

Having said that, I think wealth per capita is a better
measure of the country’s economic development than GDP
per capita. Here, compared to W. Europe, the V4 countries
still have next to nothing, and Eastern Europe(Russia, Ukraine,
Belarus) virtually nothing. When was the last time Britain or
France were completely destroyed? Not in centuries, if ever.
For the last 500 years the W. European families have been
accumulating wealth through industrialization, resource
extraction from colonialized countries, and slave trade. The
Slavic countries are still recovering from being almost
completely destroyed by the Germanic countries. That includes
Sweden. For 250 years (very roughly from its conversion to
Lutheranism to the 18th century) Sweden kept invading Slavic
countries, esp. Poland (read about Deluge) and Russia. Even today
on a per capita basis Sweden is the world’s foremost “merchant
of death” in terms of arms exports (so much for moral leadership!).

In conclusion, the countries of Central and Eastern Europe need
to emphasize economic development for a few more years because
they still have so little.

Oh, come on!! ABBA. dominating most high school dancing parties in 1970s in USSR (Bee Gees being second, but than again Australia has it coming for that).

I can imagine, heh. I once heard an ABBA song in some old Soviet film, but I sadly can’t remember which.

In the American context I’d describe myself as
middle-of-the-road (although I used to be a Democrat
in my younger years. In the U.S. there is a saying,
“If you’re not a liberal at 20, you haven’t got a heart;
if you are not a conservative at 40, you haven’t got a head”).

As to atheism, no I wouldn’t describe myself as an atheist.
Think Christianity mixed in with Advaita Vedanta and
Buddhism. This type of mixture is slowly becoming popular
in the U.S.

The craziness of it is that I remember listening to ABBA in Pakistan in the early 80′s – they were a hit all the way out there.

Peace.

Swedish Navy hunting for Soviet submarines, and probably sank one Soviet submarine. In addition, the Swedes sank one of their own submarine (another Swedish submarine was lost on mines delivered against Soviet submarines). Soviet submarines sank a number of Swedish merchant ships ( in most cases ships supply Germany)

How interesting! We had another clash with the USSR 10 years later, when a Swedish spy plane was shot down over the Baltic. (They also shot down the search-and-rescue plane for good measure.) The official Swedish line was always that it was out on a training mission, but some years ago, we learnt that it was actually spying on behalf of NATO.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_affair

RIght-wing atheist? Because there were quite a few poles, but (a) not many (b) atheists are small minority in Poland (c) right-wing atheists are small minority of atheists and that’s why I was surprised

Success has been shiny but it is still behind, and access to the West is very easy.

For at least two reasons, 1. Lithuania’s economic success
is very recent (last 5-7 years); 2. Its WEALTH (rather than GDP)
per capita is still extremely low compared to W. Europe.
(Both factors apply to Poland as well). I’ll have another post
referring to wealth in a few minutes

I’m also Polish (urodzony w Polsce – born and raised
in Marxist-ruled Poland) although I have now lived
in the United States for a number of decades. Witam!

If Lithuania was such a shinning example of economic success how come hundreds of thousands of its young people live and work in the UK, France, Germany etc.

E.g. this piece is not a satire for sure (note Donatan is a guy who is producing this, the fat guy with a horn appearing in the “we are slavic” video.

And finally Percival claims they were cheated by Donatan and they do not want cooperate with him anymore.

The authors claimed it was a satire, however (a) they made bunch of other videos about slavic soul – just hear the “introduction” to his album (b) I’ve heard that Donatan himself has panslavic ideas (“we are the same people, of the same ethnic group: we are Slavs” he stated once), he feels half-Russian, considers Catholic Church a propagator of hostile culture…

I have an impression that there is a puny, but growing sympathy for the idea that we are the Slavs, separate from the westerners. I admit it might be skewed a bit, because I got it mainly from reading hundreds of comments under Percival and Percival Schuttenbach videos (you know, the band known for the Witcher soundtrack).

I was panslavist once, for a short time btw

It’s that one iirc:

I thought that was satire tbh.

You mean in the context of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_Baltic_Sea_campaign_in_1942

That’s interesting indeed, I had never heard of that, didn’t even know there was an active Soviet submarine force at that time.

Yes and no. We don’t have much in the way of historical guilt, it’s true

Oh, come on!! ABBA. dominating most high school dancing parties in 1970s in USSR (Bee Gees being second, but than again Australia has it coming for that). IKEA, moving part of its manufacturing to China. This is down right inhumane.

Utu, I am not saying it was wise. I would say rather someone thought it would be a great idea to say “stop demanding we conform to your ideas of how UE should be run because we owe you something. We owe you nothing”.

Also, there is no basis for Jewish reperations. Jewish citizens of Poland who died during the holocaust were POLISH citizens, and Israel or all other Jewish organizations demanding reparations can go a f* themselves, as there is no basis for demanding reparations from Polish government for things done to Polish citizens by foreign government. Also, if Jewish citizens died, the only successor to their property is Polish government. End of argument.

Conservatives are liberals. There are left-leaning liberals and there are right-leaning liberals who call themselves conservatives. But they’re all liberals.

A brother once stated; conservatives are simply liberals on a time delay. The conclusion is inescapable once one observes things over an extended period of time.

Peace.

THEN reparations suddenly started to be a thing. Seems to me like a gigantic “f* you” shown to all those German journalists and politicians trying to lecture us.

Absorbing ‘a gigantic “f* you”’ does not cost Germany a single pfennig but apparently gives Poles lost of satisfaction. You won’t get a single pfennig form Germany. Do Poles realize they are opening themselves to demands for Jewish reparations? This will be the only real outcome of the operation called “German reparations.” This was the only reason somebody came up with it. You are being played like a fiddle and your political class is a bunch of fools and probably traitors.

Thanks.

I’d say the high support for the liberal attitudes basically is due to the state-sponsored propaganda. For the years all the medie were speaking with the same voice, constantly instilling a message that it’s not OK to dislike gays. They were also all in love with the west, with their nigger attitude of apeing everything coming from the west. If the shit eating was fashionable in the west, some of our so called “liberal elites” would be the most eager shit-eaters of them all.

However, the fact is that something started to change – first right-wing medias appeared and survived the attack by the government; and then right-wing party took over and cleansed the TV from the leftwing idiots.

That makes me somewhat more optimistic. Youngstas are less willing to admire the west, because basically as some point of development, they seem stop to matter that much. When you are dirt poor, earn 500$ per month and your neighbour earns 5000$, well, that’s huge. But when you earn 2500$ and you neighbour earns 6000$, that’s different – and when you earn 6000$ and your neighbour 10000$, you just start to see that maybe he is a bit richer, but he is also fat, disgusting and should take care of his own business instead of lecturing us.

SO that’s the two factors: media are no longer 100% liberal; and the younger population stopped to care about the west.

As for the German: this is pretty much common attitude to the Germans:

Few people know about it, but in 1942 the Swedish and the Soviet fleet were in a real naval war in the Baltic (though without much results).

Source please. Not challenging you, just want to learn about it.

In English I dont know of publications on this subject. In Russian:

Почтарев, А. Цена взаимных отступлений от принципов Морской сборник. – 1994
the summary of the article ( in Russian):

https://navy-chf.livejournal.com/2812767.html

Swedish Navy hunting for Soviet submarines, and probably sank one Soviet submarine. In addition, the Swedes sank one of their own submarine (another Swedish submarine was lost on mines delivered against Soviet submarines). Soviet submarines sank a number of Swedish merchant ships ( in most cases ships supply Germany)

THis takes the discussion out of context. From my point of view, I have first seen newses about Germans claiming we are just taking money from EU and not contributing by taking the refugees in, then about how Poland should be ashamed by how racist and nationalist we are (statements made by Germans), and THEN reparations suddenly started to be a thing. Seems to me like a gigantic “f* you” shown to all those German journalists and politicians trying to lecture us.

I admit it was a bit misguided and emotional – and I might be wrong of course – but this is how it looked from my perspective.

It is real. If someone is liberal and thinks “well, it’s ok for Poland to being just a province of EU”, then he laughs at “Slavic identity”. However, when someone is nationalist, then he will _at least_ accept we are Slavs and because of that we have peculiar Slavic traits.

We got even Eurovision entry song called in original “we the Slavs”

” At Smolensk the commander of the Air Force entered the cockpit (this was already against regulations), and pressured the captain to land regardless of the circumstances.”

He had not. You are repeating the leftist propaganda. There is a probability that he entered the cockpit, but it is not 100% sure.
As for the pressure, the captain said already before that he will try to approach for the landing. He even said so to the president’s guy “we will try to make one approach, but we probably fail. ” Then he continued to point that plane has no fuel to hang over the airport and that president has to make to decide, which backup airport to choose.
Then they went on with their original decision to make and approach. Then they decided to break the approach using automatic pilot – a fatal mistake, it seems.

Maaan, two Polish right-wing atheists on Russian’s blog. What are the chances

Pretty much support everything you have written.

Few people know about it, but in 1942 the Swedish and the Soviet fleet were in a real naval war in the Baltic (though without much results).

Source please. Not challenging you, just want to learn about it.

We last saw war in 1814

Few people know about it, but in 1942 the Swedish and the Soviet fleet were in a real naval war in the Baltic (though without much results). This is not for “guilt” just an interesting fact.

I agree to the extent that excessive affluence generally
results in decadence. Case in point: Western Europe and
the United States have become corrupted by their
power (e.g., centuries of colonialism) and affluence.
But life is about optimization, not maximization.
Hence I would argue that Poland’s GDP per capita
(at about $30,000) is still suboptimal. Once it
reaches $35-40,000, I’ll be satisfied that Poland
has reached an optimal GDP level, and it’s time
to focus on more important indices like National Happiness
Quotient or something along these lines.

That’s a reasonable position to take.

Being conservative is NOT ENOUGH. Conservaitives destiny is to lose to pervertedLiberalism.

Conservatives are liberals. There are left-leaning liberals and there are right-leaning liberals who call themselves conservatives. But they’re all liberals.

The entire existing political establishment in the West needs to be rejected. It sounds like the situation in Poland is much the same.

All members of NATO will fall to the liberal disease.

That’s what NATO is for. It exists to enforce liberalism.

then there is weird thing where 1/3 of Russians like Lenin despite claiming to be Orthodox..

Putin: Communist ideology similar to Christianity, Lenin’s body like saintly relics

https://www.rt.com/news/415883-putin-communist-ideology-christianity/
Communist ideology is very similar to Christianity, in fact: freedom, equality, brotherhood, justice – everything is laid out in the Holy Scripture, it’s all there. And the code of the builder of communism? This is sublimation, it’s just such a primitive excerpt from the Bible, nothing new was invented.”

“GDP growth isn’t going to save you”

I agree to the extent that excessive affluence generally
results in decadence. Case in point: Western Europe and
the United States have become corrupted by their
power (e.g., centuries of colonialism) and affluence.
But life is about optimization, not maximization.
Hence I would argue that Poland’s GDP per capita
(at about $30,000) is still suboptimal. Once it
reaches $35-40,000, I’ll be satisfied that Poland
has reached an optimal GDP level, and it’s time
to focus on more important indices like National Happiness
Quotient or something along these lines.

Isnt that strange as hell?! (no its not).

NATO moves in, liberals start winning,
and you get an Indian and homosexuals as leaders in Ireland,
you get a Lesbian leaderr in Serbia.

Divide and conquer is Anglo speciality and its very difficult to stop,
unless you are something like Russia or China.

Its quite the opposite.

In faith:
Poles are the most faithful in Christianity (Catholicism). Larger amount of weekly Church goers,
larger amount are “more serious” types, compared to Russia.
In fact no large Western nation comes close in Europe.

Its the Russians who mark down 50 or 75% Orthodox (depending on poll), while having tiny amount of weekly Church goers, most of them do it for cultural reasons.

Now as for organized religion, the priests can be active in Poland, but this isnt 1500s anymore.
Lots of people want the Church away from government.

(PS. Im not saying Poland is better, in fact the cultural part which Russians have more (slightly) than Poland is important so society doesnt crumble. And even Poland is culturally kilometers ahead of West)… then there is weird thing where 1/3 of Russians like Lenin despite claiming to be Orthodox..

Kinda true. But since the end of Soviet Bloc,
Poles are more open/okay to all neighbours,
Germans, others, and even Russians as people.

Is that good? bad? Ill say its okay.

On the other hand PIS may seem populist for liberals and internationalists,
but they were the major parties group, not really populist, just resisting the Soros, Merkel types, etc. Their Catholic views may piss of the Freemasons in the West. Kukiz was more populist.

You can NOT have Catholic or Slavic right wing parties allied with Neoconjackasses or Liberal perverts.
The country will fall if it continues.
Slowly rainbow flags, then foreign troops, then abortions, then womens rights, and it will keep coming in. Look how many American movies are running.

Already 30% of the Population is Liberal or leaning. Look at the voters of PO, Nowoczesna, etc.
Honestly half the population is like German or US wannabes in some ways.

Im not happy with whats happening, and im pessimistic with this garbage democracy
and little independance.

“In the more recent past, we have also generally been a force for good on the world stage.”

Dag Hammersjkold was a real force for good, alright.

There is a Jew called Friedman, he wants to rebuild a Miedzymorze type thing,
but with antiRussian hysteria, heavily pro American,
and a wedge to prevent Europe from being united.

Hes a typical Neocon, with Pale of Settlement thinking.

Majority of those Polish thinktank organizations in the US are CIA, pro US governments, etc.
with neocon input masquereding trying to get Catholic conservatives, and right wing to support them.

If Poland recognizes fag marriage, then Ill be awful.
And it means the Catholic Church in Europe would be completely dead.
As I myself have almost gave up on religious Catholicism.
I dont see Catholicism or Christianity much, just Satan winning.

While I doubt some of the data up there,
its true younger generations are more open, especially towards US, westernization, faggotry,
abortions, etc.

All members of NATO will fall to the liberal disease.

Polish establishment has a messed up attitude toward being pro US in so many ways.
They refuse to even lift sanctions and grow a pair.

Let me tell you 50% of Poles think Western Democracy is a good thing. Thats 50% too much.
Poland alone can not win against Liberal and Neocon.

You have PO which is LiberalConservative.
PIS which is NationalConservative allied with Neocons.

Fertility rates are super low despite, being conservative.

Being conservative is NOT ENOUGH. Conservaitives destiny is to lose to pervertedLiberalism. Always! Thats what democracy is today.

we have also generally been a force for good on the world stage

Agreed.

(1) even if we weren’t involved in conquest and exploitation ourselves, we still piggybacked on other European countries that were and therefore should share the burden of colonial guilt

Not a solid argument.

(2) we avoided war and destruction by plain luck and therefore have an obligation to make room for the unfortunates of the world.

This argument is already mitigated by the first point of being a force for good in the world stage.

The Swedes have no reason to feel guilty, same with Norwegians, etc. nobody cares about the Vikings other than to use them for sports mascots.

I’ve got in-laws in Sweden (Swedish ones) and I do feel bad that the traditional family unit is basically a thing of the past. My wife’s grandparents got married in one of those quaint little churches. All of my wife’s cousins have just a few kids between them all and I don’t think any are married. I don’t think people get married over there anymore right? They seem to kind of scoff at the idea; they just kind of live together and slip into some legally recognized union. I feel protective over Swedes (one of the most wonderful people in the world) and I don’t like people pushing nonsense on them or guilt-tripping them into self-destructive policies.

Peace.

You are right, however, in the sense that other sources of guilt dominate over our perceived historical guilts. These are too numerous to go into, but I would point to our Lutheran tradition

It seems more and more obvious that Christianity is the crucial weakness of the West. Christianity in the West no longer exists as an actual religion but the civilisation-destroying elements within Christianity (like guilt, universalism and touchy-feely niceness) survived and they’re destroying us.

That is simply incorrect, immigration means miscegenation and replacing whites with non whites, homosexual marriage can come and go through the ages, however once the whites have race mixed then the white race is simply extinct forever.

You’re missing my point. If you lose the culture war you will end up losing the demographic war. It’s the loss of the culture war that creates the situation in which defeat in the demographic war is inevitable.

The acceptance of mass immigration is a symptom. It’s not the disease. If you concentrate on treating external symptoms without attacking the disease itself the patient will die.

A nation that surrenders on feminism, homosexuality and the trans madness will cease to reproduce and will willingly accept extinction.

On the other hand if you win the culture war you will win the demographic war.

There is no reason to be as pessimistic as is the case
with some commenters here.

GDP growth isn’t going to save you. It’s the cultural rot that destroys nations.

In fact a focus on GDP growth is one of the signs that cultural rot is well advanced.

The counter-argument is your own country. It also doesn’t have any real basis for historical guilt but somehow Swedes have been made to be ashamed of their country anyway.

Yes and no. We don’t have much in the way of historical guilt, it’s true. We last saw war in 1814 (excluding the mostly peaceful annexation of Norway from 1814 to 1905), and our colonies were very small and short-lived (Saint Barthélemy being the best known). In the more recent past, we have also generally been a force for good on the world stage. Still, there are two common arguments in that spirit: (1) even if we weren’t involved in conquest and exploitation ourselves, we still piggybacked on other European countries that were and therefore should share the burden of colonial guilt, and (2) we avoided war and destruction by plain luck and therefore have an obligation to make room for the unfortunates of the world.

You are right, however, in the sense that other sources of guilt dominate over our perceived historical guilts. These are too numerous to go into, but I would point to our Lutheran tradition, our liberal and socialist traditions, the strong influence of cultural marxism since the 1960s, and maybe some others.

I partially agree. This is why I don’t buy the meme of “Eastern Europe will save the white race”. It’s nonsense. However, I don’t think I agree with your (unspoken assumption) that we’ll be quite as peripheral as you seem to think we will, either. It will have to be a combined effort.

Of course. I don’t disagree with this at all.

Obviously, he wasn’t also bothered by the fact that Poland’s tank forces today are equipped primarily by German Leopard-2.

Poland has more PT-91 and T-72s than it does Leopards:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Land_Forces#Equipment

Poland and Ukraine are jointly developing a MBT:

http://defence-blog.com/army/poland-and-ukraine-jointly-develop-new-main-battle-tank.html

Polish and Ukrainian defence companies have unveiled the new PT-17 main battle tank prototype during the MSPO-2017 defence exhibition. The new tank is an upgraded version of the Soviet T-72 MBT with NATO-standard ammunition.

Polish Zaklady Mechaniczne “Bumar – Labedy” S.A. and Ukrainian concern “UkrOboronProm” have agreed to a deal to jointly develop upgraded versions of the T-72 main battle tank (MBT) in April 2017. For the implementation of this project, UkrOboronProm has begun integration of the best Ukrainian technological developments: it has developed and supplied autoloader, a new engine, transmission, new 120mm main gun, fire control system, a system of dynamic protection, a demonstration tower.

Main purposes of modernization:

Increasing firepower and fire maneuver modernization;
Increasing survivability on battlefield;
Increasing mobility;
Increasing crew working comfort and extend mission duration.

The PT-17 is equipped with a 1,000 hp power pack, which includes an S-1000R engine. The manufacturer has stated that a 1,200 hp power pack is available as an optional upgrade.

The PT-17 tank is equipped with 120mm smooth-bore gun KBA-2 and autoloader for gun loading with fixed ammunition manufactured by the Ukrainian firm Kharkov Morozov Design Bureau. In order to be able to use 120mm NATO-standard fixed ammunition, the automatic loader of the gun is installed in an isolated self-contained compartment in the turret bustle. The level of armour protection of the automatic loader compartment is analogous to that of the Leopard and Abrams tanks.

The total allowance of ammunition of the tank includes 40 rounds, of which 22 are positioned in the automatic loader.

The PT-17 is equipped with the OBRA-3 system of laser warning receivers, which are linked to the vehicle’s smoke grenade launchers, and bar armour has been fitted over the turret bustle.

In addition to losing 6 million of its citizens (3 million
Christians and 3 million Jews), Poland also lost territories
in the east as well two major cities Lvov and Vilnius. Lvov,
specifically, was a major university center where world-class
mathematics was being done (e.g., people like Banach or Stanislaw
Ulam who came to the U.S. and helped develop nuclear weapons.)
However, I’m not one to bemoan the loss of those territories.

You got an ethnically pure country for that.
According to people here, that is ideal, ergo Poland benefited from that.

@bb

I hear you. Agree. In general, I always had and still have suspicion about “artsy” types.

Waste of time!

So in fact homosexual marriage really is a bigger threat than immigration.

That is simply incorrect, immigration means miscegenation and replacing whites with non whites, homosexual marriage can come and go through the ages, however once the whites have race mixed then the white race is simply extinct forever.

Someone with that job out to try to be at least a little respectful.

I think this may have something to do with
the small country vs large country dynamics.
There are traces of the same type of dynamics
in Lithuania’s attitude toward Poland. I think
the relationship has improved recently but several
years ago a couple of Polish journalists went to
Vilnius to investigate, and although generally
they found nothing wrong with Lithuanian
hospitality, they did encounter a waitress and
a couple of local men who acted suspicious.
They’d say, “Why are you coming here? What
do you want?” But most realize that Poland
left a lot of history in Vilnius (e.g., poet Mickiewicz),
and they have every right to visit. Similarly, the
Germans are welcome to visit Wrocław or Szczecin.

In addition to losing 6 million of its citizens (3 million
Christians and 3 million Jews), Poland also lost territories
in the east as well two major cities Lvov and Vilnius. Lvov,
specifically, was a major university center where world-class
mathematics was being done (e.g., people like Banach or Stanislaw
Ulam who came to the U.S. and helped develop nuclear weapons.)
However, I’m not one to bemoan the loss of those territories.
Borders are never perfect but on the whole I think the European
borders today are more fair than those in the 1930s.

Re: the Polish-German issues – One way to think about it is
that since Charlemagne, i.e., in the last 1200 years, the history
of the Eastern Central Europe was dominated by the competition
between Slavia and Germania. By Germania I mean the territory
occupied by Germanics: 100 million German speakers plus 20
million Scandinavians. By Slavia I mean the (enormous) territory
occupied by the Slavs. There are roughly 240 million Slavs living
today compared to 120 million Germanics, 2:1 ratio. Based on the
population (and territory) ratio, the competition is one the Germanics
were destined to lose. In many ways WW II was the last desperate
attempt by Germany to win control over the Slavic territory, and the only
possible outcome was Germany’s loss. In 800 AD Charlemagne kept
the Germanics confined to the Elbe-Saale rivers (so called Limes Saxoniae).
But after his death, for 1200 years the Germanics kept pushing east
with the Western Slavs (Polabian Slavs, Bohemia, and Poland) bearing
the brunt of Germanic expansionism, the Drang nach Osten.

The Swedes, once they became fundamentalist Lutherans in the
1500s, also inflicted a lot of damage on Slavia, for about 250 years
in fact, so the Swedes also have a great deal to atone for. And they spent
WW II basically going to the beach and having fun while getting
obscenely rich on lucrative contracts with Nazi Germany.

Nevertheless, the 1200-year project for the Germanics to occupy
and impose their will on the Slavs finally came crashing down
in WW II. How could 100 million win over 240 million?
The Germans would have had to first kill 140 million Slavs
to achieve rough parity. Good luck with that! I realize I’m
obviously glossing over many details, e.g., the presence of the
Ottoman Turks who presented a mortal danger to both Slavia
and Hungary but I think the population and the territorial
ratio was to the Slavs’ advantage even 1000 years ago, so the
there was no doubt about the ultimate outcome even though
the Slavs’ main weakness (internal bickering) has taken its toll
over the centuries.

All I said was that Lithuania (and the rest of the Baltics) are doing very well economically,
much better than when they were part of the Soviet Union.

Again, this is not exactly true. Especially when one looks at the contemporary dynamics in EU and NOT from mostly monetarists indices by Western economists.

I never claimed that Russia is planning to invade the Baltics

I never claimed that you claimed that, governments of Baltic States, however, is a completely different story. It has as much of an economic driver behind Baltics’ paranoia as it has insanity.

“Climate is not an issue”

I mentioned climate as one issue in addition
to higher welfare payments in Germany, etc.
However, the fact that Poland is much farther north than
Austria or Hungary gives it a definite advantage.
For example, Poland was not in immediate danger
of being flooded by migrants in 2015 like Hungary and
Austria were. Hence, unlike Hungary, Poland didn’t have
to build a wall. Unlike the countries to the south, Poland
has access to the sea. The latter is a major advantage.
That’s not to say that geography is destiny but the country’s
location (incl. climate) does count.

don’t forget the term ‘humanitarian bombing’ which he only inspired…another dude coined the exact words (only further proof he was a mediocre writer)

otherwise, the adoration of this fool is one of the most depressing realities of political life here. (Granted, he’s much less popular in Slovakia)

also, in another example of elite hypocrisy, one of the main charges against Milos Zeman’s presidency(the main being him literally saying he does not wish a war with Russia and that’s why he is actively promoting trade with them – naturally, he is Putin’s slut, go figure..), is his, granted, excessive alcoholism and harsh bon mottism. With that old drunk Havel, who pissed himself on several occasions, it was considered ‘cute’.

I never claimed that Russia is planning to
invade the Baltics, so your answer was
completely unnecessary.

All I said was that Lithuania (and
the rest of the Baltics) are doing very well economically,
much better than when they were part of the Soviet Union.
You need to read more carefully.

Actually, Lithuania (and the rest of the Baltics) ranks surprisingly high on the International Innovation Index, higher than Russia or Poland. For example, in the area of femto lasers.

Sure. LOL. It is a well-known fact that Russians sleep and dream of how to occupy and add about 2.5 million freeloaders to Russia precisely because of their laser technology. You see, during 1960s and 1970s in USSR it was cute–you know, Baltics, the ersatz West, theatrical culture, distinctly “European” city centers, etc. This charm is long gone. Well-off Russians prefer (justifiably so) Nice, Barcelona or Italy (some get to London), some medium income Russians buy real-estate in Czechia, the rest travel to Thailand (some have property there), Malta, Turkey or elsewhere but not Baltic states. Per those indices–specifically Lithuania fares extremely poorly on any STEM metric, below average. So, what’s the catch? What’s in it for Russia, which already completed a transport bypass of Baltic states (ports, etc.)–a distinct sign of impending “invasion” /sarc. The only real product Baltic States have, apart from fish and some other minor things is a visceral Russophobia–the only currency which has real value among US and European “elites”. So, for them, to remain somewhat relevant and financially supported the only thing to export is a myth of impending, any minute now, invasion and occupation by Russians, logic and geopolitical and military sense be damned. Same applies to Poland, whose former MoD, as an example, accused Russia of… Holocaust. The guy now heads commission on Smolensk crash. As Alice would say–it is getting curioser and curioser.

“Poles had not much luck with their politicians”

Let’s not get hysterical. Poland’s GDP grew by about
4.2% in 2017 compared to Germany’s 2.2% growth
and Russia’s roughly 2% rate of growth (after two
years of negative growth). Since 1989 Poland’s economy
has grown at roughly the same rate as that of South Korea,
and has not experienced even a single year of recession,
not even in 2008. Moreover, Poland’s economy is roughly
the combined size of the economies of Czechia, Slovakia,
Hungary, and Austria. Also, unlike Czechia, Slovakia,
Hungary or Romania, Poland has virtually no Gypsies.
There is no reason to be as pessimistic as is the case
with some commenters here.

It’s just showing up as an issue in the party controlled media recently and Morawiecki’s trying to make nice with Brussels.
At this stage it might be nothing or it might turn into an about face.

What were those hints?

We’ll see how that goes. I don’t know if the public will warm to dry-as-dust Morawiecki. I think he’s very competent but I suspect he’s more effective as a behind-the-scenes rather than fronting the show.

Szydło did connect with a lot of people as does Duda but both are on the outs with Kaczyński who continues as the most powerful person in the country.

And yes, the opposition continues to suck donkeys and is in total disarray. Polish politicians don’t really work well together without a dominant personality keeping them in line and PO lost that when Tusk went to Brussels.

Because the Polish opposition is even worse/more incompetent.

Despite all this PiS gained in popularity since elections.

None of what you say addresses my points. No doubt the Russians did organise a less competent information op against the chosen narrative on MH17.

True, but I didn’t intend to since Karlin has already summed up the matter from a pro-Russian point of view:

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/mh17/

“There’ve even been hints of softening on the migrant issue but I think that just means maybe finally accepting the minimal number promised by the last government. Everyone assumes they’ll just go back to Germany at the first opportunity anyway.”

You know that old American military saying: “ASSUMPTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCKUPS”.

The “fuckup logic” here: 1. They will ALL go back to Germany; and 2. No more will arrive AFTERWARDS.

Terrific comment and strong analysis. I do have minor quibbles.

A historical reason would be that the Polish have no easily identifiable historical guilt

The counter-argument is your own country. It also doesn’t have any real basis for historical guilt but somehow Swedes have been made to be ashamed of their country anyway.

The only development I see putting an end to this is the widespread discreditation of multiculturalism in its heartlands, either through obvious economic retardation or scientific breakthroughs (e.g. HBD going mainstream).

I partially agree. This is why I don’t buy the meme of “Eastern Europe will save the white race”. It’s nonsense. However, I don’t think I agree with your (unspoken assumption) that we’ll be quite as peripheral as you seem to think we will, either. It will have to be a combined effort.

I disagree. Territory is the only thing one can never produce. Therefore, it is the most valuable. Infrastructure can be rebuilt. New people can be born to replace the dead. But the territory is gone forever, and it limits the size of the population, which is the ultimate source of both the infrastructure and wealth and of the new people being born. It is, for example, probably no accident, that the post-war population growth rates were lower in Germany than in Poland.

The only thing more valuable than territory are cities which are a combination of territory, infrastructure and concentrated population.
Losing Stettin, Danzig, Breslau, usw. was a huge loss for Germany, something the country did not recover from.

Too bad, since that’s an issue where Poland is not isolated at all

That’s how it seems. Hungary and Czechia seem to be more determined than Poland in this respect. It might be the case that Poland is actually the weakest link in V4. I do not mean Polish population but Polish political class. Which is nothing new. Poor Poles had not much luck with their politicians in last 300 years.

People who want it all black and white and keep on sticking to some story are missing most of the amusing things in life.

Since you wrote, which I am glad you did, perhaps you will appreciate this story:

http://www.unz.com/article/books-banned-by-banned-books-week/#comment-2039030
Not well known mind blowing story. I learned about it just few months ago. Former women prisoners of Ravensbrück KL helped escape the SS-women Johanna Langefeld (in charge of Auschwitz women camp) from prison in Poland in 1946 (she was handed over by Americans to Poland) and sheltered her for 10 years in convents and private families until she could get back illegally to Germany in 1957.

“This is the wrong approach”

I agree, but the hints are out there in public. One problem is that PiS (I’m not a fan) wasted way too much political capital on idiotic squabbles with Brussels on the court system and cutting down the Białowieża forest.
Now they’re trying to make nice (since a majority of voters like the EU in principle) and that means caving on a lot of issues, Kaczyński isn’t going to give up on putting the court system under direct partisan party control (his pet project) so something else will have to give and that’s probably migrants.
Too bad, since that’s an issue where Poland is not isolated at all, maybe that’s part of the idea accept migrants after Hungary and Czech and Slovakia and Austria do…

There’ve even been hints of softening on the migrant issue but I think that just means maybe finally accepting the minimal number promised by the last government. Everyone assumes they’ll just go back to Germany at the first opportunity anyway.

This is the wrong approach. It means that

- the principle that Brussels can force countries to accept migrants will be accepted

- once Germany finds a way to make itself less welcoming to migrants (or simply becomes poorer, or Poland richer) the migrants will start to flow to Poland and there will be no way to stop them.

slightly harsher climate – Climate is not an issue. If it was climate they would not be crowding Sweden or they would stay in Greece or Bulgaria Poland or Lithuania do not pay enough money. That’s all. Perhaps also having a bad reputation for not being immigrant friendly may help.

IINM there have been noises made about holding countries responsible if migrants leave, but on the other hand no one has explained how Poland (for example) is expected to keep a bunch of migrants from crossing an uncontrolled border with Germany…. ankle monitors? put them in a camp?

This is one reason there is no meaningful support at street level for the idea of accepting migrants.

Earlier Poland did accept a group of Christian Syrians giving them rent free apartments and free Polish lessons…. and within a week almost all of them went to Germany without so much as a thank you or goodbye.

Lithuania did accept a few migrants as required by
Brussels. Within weeks they were gone. Nobody
knows what happened to them. Most likely they
made their way to Germany. What partly protects
Poland and the Baltic countries from the migrants
is the slightly harsher climate as compared to
Germany (not to mention the generous welfare programs,
pre-existing ethnic communities, and the fact that
German is easier to learn than Polish). The climate in
western Germany is a bit milder than in Poland.

The ROC then can have significant influence in policies without actually being involved in running things directly.

And indeed it does. The liberal crazies who rail about a lack of secularism in Russia are in this case correct.

“Jaroslaw Kaczynski claims his brother was murdered at the Smolensk crash? I didn’t pay much attention to this and only noticed recently…does he really push that theory?)”

I don’t think so. He appointed a conspiracy theorist as Minister of Defense and a commission was set up and a huge amount of time and resources were poured into finding the ‘truth’ and…. nuthin’

For a time there would be supposed leaks about new evidence every couple of months or so but none of it ever showed up and most people in Poland don’t care.

Kaczyński himself has been walking back his commitment to the conspiracy theory and called for an end to the monthly rallies devoted to it (he wants the last one to be in April of this year). I think the really committed will continue them but he’s clearly done.

I myself think that the Russian government (any Russian government) would not to hesitate to engineer something like Smolensk (they’ve done far worse) but there’s really no evidence tying them to this that makes sense. The best guess is the pilot was being pressured to land and…. it didn’t work out.

And what Kaczyński _really_ wanted was to tie his domestic political enemies (like Tusk) to it or at least try to make the public associate the two – he hates Tusk far more than he hates any Russians.

Right now his focus is trying to win back younger (and win for the first time) the better educated by replacing the popular PM with a dry-as-dust technocrat and getting rid of some of the ministers who resonate the least with the more educated public.

There’ve even been hints of softening on the migrant issue but I think that just means maybe finally accepting the minimal number promised by the last government. Everyone assumes they’ll just go back to Germany at the first opportunity anyway.

“Given that PiS and Kukiz’15(the two main right-populist parties) won a majority of the youth vote in the last election”

But PiS kept Kaczyński well out of sight and there was an implicit promise that Macierewicz would be kept out of the government, many young people regretted that having voted for Szydło they ended up with the same old same old.

there was always the option for a Czech to declare himself of ‘German’ nationality and go off to fight for the Reich. Some did it.

So, then, some Czechs did indeed fight for the Germans.

You are nutty (and passive aggressive as usual). A European country doesn’t need Russia to keep out migrants, what it needs is stricter border controls. It is totally possible to do within the bounds of the EU. When it comes to the potential migrants from Western Europe, all that needs to be done is rescinding the free movement of labour (that, too, could be done with a bit of work). None of this has anything to do with Russia. And besides, hardly anybody in the EU wants an open border / free movement of labour policy with Russia.

Most 3rd world migrants actually arrive into the Baltic states via the Russian border (Vietnamese, Congolese on trains from Moscow, Afghans, etc). The nationalists there actually proposed mining the Eastern border (but it would require exiting the Ottawa treaty).

How did he calculate Free French losses?

I actually don’t know. It was an informal speech at a university, he might had counted only losses after the occupation started and before D-Day. In any case, a lot of French (and Belgian) volunteers died fighting on the German side and not that many died in the Resistance.

Germans didn’t want to recruit Czech soldiers

True, although there was always the option for a Czech to declare himself of ‘German’ nationality and go off to fight for the Reich. Some did it. Czech industry kept on humming, as much as 20% of German war material was produced by the Czechs.

I find these counter-intuitive facts were revealing. People who want it all black and white and keep on sticking to some story are missing most of the amusing things in life.

Almost, but not exactly

Actually, it was exactly as I described it. The Wiki’s “flush the men out by flooding the crypt” politely omits that it was the local Czech firemen who flooded the crypt and in effect killed the 5 resistance members. Yes the firemen had Germans standing over them with guns, but it was still strange. There is a movie of the firemen pulling their oversized hoses to the Church and flooding the crypt. They looked like they were just doing a job like any other. That’s a part of Czech mentality too.

I agree with you about the irony that it was the tiny Orthodox Church that did more for resistance to Nazi occupation than most others.

As the owner of a major film studio he of course had contacts with the occupation authorities

He worked for them. He was by definition collaborating with the German occupation – by the way, Germans killed at the same time around 100,000 Czechs.

he also used these contacts to help a lot of people.

That’s what they all say. Goering helped a ‘lot of people’, so did most high level Nazis. It is probably true, but it doesn’t change the fact that he collaborated with the occupation.

and went to jail for it

Yes, Havel went to jail under commies. The first specific ‘crime’ that he was sentenced for was ‘refusing to pay tax on an imported vehicle‘. He was awarded a brand new Volvo as prize from a West German foundation – when it crossed the border he was asked to pay an import tax. He refused. The clueless communist byrocrats charged him with tax evasion. Havel’s story is more complicated than the usual dissident hagiography.

Do you actually like Havel’s plays? He might be courageous, but his ‘art’ is pretty dismal.

Casting your lot with Western Europe will get you Sharia.

Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians will find themselves stuck between an increasingly poor, violent, Arab/African/Turk Muslim-dominated Western/Central “Europe” (and a Muslim “Sweden”) and … Russia. Ironically, Russian help and even Russian annexation won’t look so bad then.