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Thanks, Sam. Have a safe flight back.

Thanks for sharing that piece DEFINITELY some interesting stuff. The Trumanites seem to be protected behind a wall of bureacracy. And I forgot all about that 60 Minutes fluff piece on the NSA. Forgot how disgusted I got when I watched it originally. I guess I must have blocked the traumatizing event out of my mind.

And I agree with you that Glennon and Moyers, are definitely on the same page along with Mr. Giraldi’s pieces on the Deep State… and it’s terrifying.

This guy would seem to agree with Moyers:

He decided to explore the similarities in a 30-page paper that he sent around to a number of his friends, asking them to validate or refute his argument. As it happens, Glennon’s friends were an extraordinarily well-informed bunch, mostly seasoned operatives in the CIA, the U.S. State Department and the military. “Look,” he told them. “I’m thinking of writing a book. Tell me if this is wrong.” Every single one responded, “What you have here is exactly right”

…

The NSA, the FBI, the Pentagon and elements of the State Department, certainly; generally speaking, law enforcement, intelligence and the military entities of the government. It’s a diverse group, an amorphous group, with no leader and no formal structure, that has come to dominate the formation of American national security policy to the point that Congress, the presidency and the courts all defer to it.

…

We are clearly on the path to autocracy, and you can argue about how far we are down that path. But there’s no question that if we continue on that path, America’s constitutionally established institutions—Congress, the courts and the presidency—will ultimately end up like Britain’s House of Lords and monarchy, namely as institutional museum pieces”

http://now.tufts.edu/articles/shadow-government

I would go on to simply point out this is circumstance ripe for exploitation

“The Secret Government is an interlocking network of official functionaries, spies, mercenaries, ex-generals, profiteers and superpatriots, who, for a variety of motives, operate outside the legitimate institutions of government. Presidents have turned to them when they can’t win the support of the Congress or the people, creating that unsupervised power so feared by the framers of our Constitution. Just imagine that William Casey’s dream came true. Suppose the enterprise grew into a super-secret, self-financing, self-perpetuating organization. Suppose they decided on their own to assassinate Gorbachev or the leader of white South Africa. Could a President control them and what if he became the enterprise’s public enemy Number One? Who would know? Who would say no?”

“Can it happen again? You bet it can. The apparatus of secret power remains intact in a huge White House staff operating in the sanctuary of presidential privilege. George Bush has already told the National Security Council to take more responsibility for foreign policy, which can of course be exercised beyond public scrutiny. And a lot of people in Washington are calling for more secrecy, not less, including more covert actions. This is a system easily corrupted as the public grows indifferent again, and the press is seduced or distracted. So one day, sadly, we are likely to discover once again that while freedom does have enemies in the world, it can also be undermined here at home, in the dark, by those posing as its friends. I’m Bill Moyers. Good night.” – Bill Moyers (The Secret Government 1987)

Hey RTW and Geo
Both you chaps are my favourite commenters on this site and honestly I have no wish to see a fracas lit up between the two of you!

I’ll say this: during the period (around June/July 2015) when I was debating a number of people simply for the sake of debating, caring not a whit about moral dimensions, it was entirely my style that led to a protracted stream of arguments with geokat; sophistry, polemics, gotcha and logical twisters were my weapons of choice, and I am afraid in that exchange both geokat and I were invoking Clintonesque erudition on articles of speech or the written word.

That was a period, shall we say was when Sam Shama had not quite emerged from the chrysalis!

So I fully own up to my own “dirtbag ” tactics. I am now a reformed man (except on rare occasions when the opportunity to goad a few true believers, is too difficult to resist!)

*** Have to break-off here, headed for a flight to Asia. Look forward to speaking when I am back on terra firma

I recall Sam Shama has covered your dirt bag style on multiple occasions…

Sam, care to chime in?

@ geokat

Finally, regarding the “dirt bag style” remark, I’d be interested in seeing just one example

Glad I could put a burr under your saddle. Meanwhile, I recall Sam Shama has covered your dirt bag style on multiple occasions, so it’s not merely been my experience which I’d pointed out to you, convenient, your short memory ; )

Among the many on-the-record bombshell disclosures she made that day, I don’t recall her mentioning anything about Operation Gladio, let alone suggesting that 9/11 was government mfged

There you go, throwing up a straw man. I very clearly stated: “it is not government pulled off 9/11 if you consider what amounts to organized crime cells integrated to government organs to be responsible” Or are you such a great analyst you can’t wrap your head around that?

And of course as any worthwhile investigator knows, you go to the most well informed sources for their knowledge, insights and opinions to shape your product. Particularly a source such as Edmonds who’d reviewed documents that continue to be classified. And being familiar with law, investigations and depositions, it’s easy for me to state depositions are highly controlled lines of questioning with certain restrictive parameters concerning the answers given. As well, just how much classified material do you expect Edmonds was at liberty to discuss in a transcript you can pull out of your hat and broadcast at Unz Review? Yeah, you’re a real winner geokat, call for more investigation from the USA, that’ll accomplish a lot (this last is irony, in case you missed it.)

I look forward to learning more about Edmonds (the transcript looks promising).

None deny 9/11 was a conspiracy. Identifying conspirators is the question.

Assuming fire (from plane fuel and debris) was ultimately responsible for the WTC collapses doesn’t detract from the question. On the other hand, controlled demolition, a difficult scenario, is a distraction.

Intentionally set fires and severed sprinkler mains (low tech, inexpensive) could have brought down WT 7. Finding proof is the burden. But why would anyone bother attacking WT 7?

Evidence of clear Iraq War criminality exists for the administration officials who would probably have been responsible for an ‘911 inside job.’ I’d be satisfied if they were indicted and tried for Iraq. They can’t serve more than one life term.

Apologies for an inaccurate previous post:

“How would one strip, mine and wire 60 exterior 14×14” exterior columns on each office floor of WT 1 & 2 without any tenant disruption in each 110 story building?”

The correct number is 60 x 4 = 240 on each office floor for each building. Assuming 104 office floors, that’s 49,920 columns.

[WASHINGTON’S BLOG]: In terms of 9/11, what’s your opinion about whether there were countries involved, or whether it was rogue Gladio personnel?

As any intelligence analyst worth his salt knows, there is a big difference between someone’s opinion and having documented evidence that supports the US gov’t mfged 9/11. To be fair, he did hedge his bets, though:

I’ve never said with conviction it was government per se.

Thanks to a subpoena, we finally got to see and hear Sibel’s remarkable allegations while she was under oath, during her August 8, 2009 deposition.

Among the many on-the-record bombshell disclosures she made that day, I don’t recall her mentioning anything about Operation Gladio, let alone suggesting that 9/11 was government mfged.

Here’s a copy of the 241-page transcript, if you’d like to read it for yourself:

http://www.bradblog.com/Docs/SibelEdmondsDeposition_Transcript_080809.pdf

Finally, regarding the “dirt bag style” remark, I’d be interested in seeing just one example.

I call the WTC 7 collapse ‘died of fright.’ I notice no one else is calling out Marias on her straw man style when pushing the official collapse explanation. I’ve never said with conviction it was government per se. But now that Sibel Edmonds has been given some backing, here’s the source of the quote geokat would have liked if I’d been a bit more specific. It wasn’t in the videos and I knew that, but I think he can hardly complain, given his own tendency to dirt bag style (time to time.)

[WASHINGTON’S BLOG]: In terms of 9/11, what’s your opinion about whether there were countries involved, or whether it was rogue Gladio personnel?

[SIBEL EDMONDS]: You have to separate the pawns from the main players. There might have been elements involved within countries: for example Prince Bandar in Saudi Arabia, or Turkish people at the MIT.

But the people who ran the show at the top were NATO and Gladio. And Gladio was under the U.S. It was – and is – an operation under the U.S., for U.S. empire.

As far as people who ran the show, it was the highest levels of NATO, the U.S., MI6, CIA and the Pentagon.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/09/sibel-2.html

I agree with Edmonds. So, in a broad sense, it is not government pulled off 9/11 if you consider what amounts to organized crime cells integrated to government organs to be responsible. But certainly government structures were proactively involved with perpetrating 9/11.

Obscure WT 7, far from being an “extreme weak link,” is enigmatically redundant unless it housed a still-secret tenant/target. Otherwise, given the prior spectacular collapse of WT 1 & 2, it was a spontaneous event.

A spontaneous event for sure–spontaneous combustion!

Other than negligence, was the administration complicit in the attacks? Were they intentionally negligent? That’s truly worth an independent investigation. I just don’t think the answer lies in the rubble of WTC.

I concur, completely.

Given your post, I’ll reserve time for the Gladio interviews and BFP in future.

My skepticism is not of a 9/11 conspiracy, but rather of the theory of wholesale WTC mining by the GWB admin. It was unnecessary. The planes alone (fuel load, probable dislocation of floor truss/central core column fire protection, sprinkler main severance) could probably heat steel beyond the plastic limit and cause the complete failure of WT 1 & 2.

Obscure WT 7, far from being an “extreme weak link,” is enigmatically redundant unless it housed a still-secret tenant/target. Otherwise, given the prior spectacular collapse of WT 1 & 2, it was a spontaneous event.

Rice’s 9/11 Commission testimony (8 Apr 2004) and the 6 Aug 2001 PDB revealed a weak link: criminal negligence (at the very least). Subsequent sources (Clarke, 36 PDBs dealing with Al Qaeda from 10 Jan 2001, 7 PDBs from 1 May 2001 dealing with US targeting) augment the evidence.

Other than negligence, was the administration complicit in the attacks? Were they intentionally negligent? That’s truly worth an independent investigation. I just don’t think the answer lies in the rubble of WTC.

Administration incompetence argues against prior 9/11 planning involvement. Rice’s bizarre testimony, for example, is either brilliant acting or genuine ineptitude. The latter appears most probable.

On the other hand, Iraq war criminality, corruption, and the long history of malicious policy advocated by many admin. officials prevents settling the question. There’s no doubt those officials used 9/11 as a pretext in crimes that would hang them at Nüremberg.

San Gimignano’s survival as a desirable venue (visited Apr 1972) is welcome news.

…four months before 9/11.

I take no issue that there was foreknowledge about the attacks. I’ve even commented about this myself:

http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-tale-of-two-world-orders/#comment-1008947

What some are suggesting, however, is that there is hard evidence to suggest that 9/11 was manufactured by the US government. And I don’t believe SE made statements that supported this view, unless you can furnish information that says otherwise.

Giraldi/Edmonds interview. (Thanks to RTW for posting elsewhere.)

http://www.unz.com/article/whos-afraid-of-sibel-edmonds/

excerpt:
“The monitoring of the Turks picked up contacts with Feith, Wolfowitz, and Perle in the summer of 2001, four months before 9/11. They were discussing with the Turkish ambassador in Washington an arrangement whereby the U.S. would invade Iraq and divide the country.”

In that case, we’ll just have to hook up the next time I’m in DC. Although the backdrop won’t be the same, there’s nothing to stop us from having a glass of Chianti or Brunello.

I happen to be a big fan of Sibel Edmonds.

Given that both these videos are about an hour long, it would have been helpful to provide the points in time that were most relevant for viewing.

That being said, I happened to view both clips from start to finish and nothing Sibel says refutes what you have written above.

Here’s a quote from The Independent article that summarizes her position:

She added: “There was general information about the time-frame, about methods to be used ­ but not specifically about how they would be used ­ and about people being in place and who was ordering these sorts of terror attacks. There were other cities that were mentioned. Major cities ­ with skyscrapers.”

She said said it was clear there was sufficient information during the spring and summer of 2001 to indicate terrorists were planning an attack. “Most of what I told the commission ­ 90 per cent of it ­ related to the investigations that I was involved in or just from working in the department. Two hundred translators side by side, you get to see and hear a lot of other things as well.”

The accusations from Mrs Edmonds, 33, a Turkish-American who speaks Azerbaijani, Farsi, Turkish and English, will reignite the controversy over whether the administration ignored warnings about al-Qa’ida. That controversy was sparked most recently by Richard Clarke, a former counter-terrorism official, who has accused the administration of ignoring his warnings.

P.S. To Phil Giraldi:

In reviewing various sources about the SE case, I went back and viewed the documentary, Kill The Messenger, for a second time. One surprising tidbit that I had forgotten is that you were featured in that film. It indicated that you were a retired former CIA analyst who lived in the beautiful Tuscan town of San Gimignano. I have travelled to Tuscany myself on two occasions (spring 2012 and summer 2015) in the nearby village of Greve in Chianti, and I plan on visiting again. Next time I’m there, I’ll be sure to pay you a visit.

Here’s my last comment at this thread and then it’s adios to you Trollette, bye-bye to you and your mission to bog people down in a professional liars non-sense; Sibel Edmonds statements (the links I’ve provided) are all people really need to study up on to have a reasonable grasp of who’s actually behind 9/11, her expertise and knowledge is truly remarkable, here’s the links again:

Part one

Part two

No answers. What a surprise.

Allegations of diabolical conspiracies absent subject knowledge (in this case of basic steel structures, construction and demolition) are tiresome. I’m sure this doesn’t apply to you, so I’ll ask again. If the World Trade Center towers were intentionally demolished on 9/11/01 in a stage-managed event:

• Why did WT 1 (the first tower hit, burns 102 min) fall after WT 2 (burns 56 min)?
• Why, after the spectacular collapse of WT 1 & 2, would one bother with obscure WT 7 (burns 6+ hours) since it housed nothing important?
• How would one strip, mine and wire 60 exterior 14×14” exterior columns on each office floor of WT 1 & 2 without any tenant disruption in each 110 story building? Uncover, strip, mine, and wire WT 1 & 2 central core columns on 2 x 110 floors without detection? Mine and wire freestanding consolidated load columns exposed to public view at grade? How was mine placement concealed from building tenants, management, maintenance staff, visitors, CoNY building inspectors, etc?
• Were demolition engineers observed in the area on 9/11?
• Why have only 0.24% (at most) of licensed architects and engineers asked Congress for a new “truly independent investigation” justified by “significant doubt about the official story?” Are 99.76% (at least) of licensed architects and engineers part of a conspiracy?
• Are WTC architects and engineers from Minoru Yamasaki & Associates, Emery Roth & Sons, Worthington Skilling Helle & Jackson, Joseph R. Loring & Assoc, Jaros Blum & Bolles, and the numerous other firms responsible for the WTC part of a conspiracy? Are WTC building contractors and subcontractors part of the conspiracy?
• Why would one bother hijacking passenger jets when a simpler, less expensive repeat of the 1993 bombing, with larger charges, could be as successful?
• Why, when ample proof of administration criminal negligence and gross incompetence in the months leading to the 9/11 attack exists (as well as Katrina and Iraq 2003), would one assume the same administration is capable of a remarkably difficult staged event without detection?

Part one

Part two

In terms of 9/11, what’s your opinion about whether there were countries involved, or whether it was rogue Gladio personnel?

“You have to separate the pawns from the main players. There might have been elements involved within countries: for example Prince Bandar in Saudi Arabia, or Turkish people at the MIT.

“But the people who ran the show at the top were NATO and Gladio. And Gladio was under the U.S. It was – and is – an operation under the U.S., for U.S. empire.

“As far as people who ran the show, it was the highest levels of NATO, the U.S., MI6, CIA and the Pentagon”

Sibel Edmonds Says about all needs said

On the other hand, maybe they read the reports and were satisfied

Inclusive of the large amount of those who’re landscape architects and sanitation engineers etcetera, inflating your numbers, I suppose. You really imagine yourself quite good and it’s always a sort of ‘left handed compliment’ to draw the attention of someone such as yourself:

http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/04/18/military-sock-puppets-nsa-trolls-cia-shills/

But then, Phil’s columns tend to attract the flies, when he reveals the stink -

“Nice try trollette.”

Nice ad hominem: can’t think of anything substantive?

“…99.76% architects and engineers are either too timid to put themselves on the line, never concerned themselves with the issue, are too busy…to be interested,…”

On the other hand, maybe they read the reports and were satisfied.

“Over 2,000 architects and engineers putting themselves on the record stating the USA’s explanation is false is actually fairly impressive.”

Chances are you’d find the same percent (or more) who believe in any number of controversial subjects or alleged conspiracies. How many from Minoru Yamasaki & Associates (if any) signed? Is Leslie Robertson (chief structural engineer) part of a conspiracy? Are the forensic experts involved in the report(s) in the conspiracy? The building management and maintenance staff? The building tenants? Building visitors? CoNY building inspectors? What would their motive(s) be?

(LR)

(PBS)

“You’re splitting hairs [re certification]”

It’s a small point unless you’re the one who went through the effort/expense to be NCARB certified (like physicians with board certification).

The GWB administration was criminally corrupt, negligent and remarkably incompetent under the most favorable conditions. Widely known facts (ignoring numerous PDBs, demoting the terrorism czar to deputy status Jan 2001, conspiring to invade Iraq as early as Feb 2002, fabricating intelligence, launching aggressive war March 2003, failure to protect Iraqi monuments and citizens, torture, kidnapping, etc) are more than enough for indictments and convictions. Trying to prove them diabolical masterminds with remarkable skills seems an unnecessary implausibility.

Conspiracy theories can be as addictive as pornography, but are seldom as productive.

BTW “certified” isn’t mentioned on Richard Gage’s ae911truth web site, which lists “licensed” and “degreed.” A licensed architect is not the same an certified architect

You’re splitting hairs:

Mississippi State Board of Architecture

The Board accomplishes its goals and legislative mandates through the licensure and certification of architects…

http://www.msboa.ms.gov/Pages/default.aspx

In other words, 99.76% are presumably satisfied with the studies already completed

Nice try trollette. But your 99.76% architects and engineers are either too timid to put themselves on the line, never concerned themselves with the issue, are too busy with family and other responsibilities to be interested, are looking for hookers in their free time, watching the Redskins play, don’t care, are having a pint at McSorley’s in Greenwich Village (I’ve had a pint there with an engineer who is Zen about it), and most certainly have not signed on with any non-profit whose stated mission is polling architects and engineers that endorse the government’s report on 9/11 per your straw man. Over 2,000 architects and engineers putting themselves on the record stating the USA’s explanation is false is actually fairly impressive.

Demolition of WT 1 & 2 would require striping interior column finish and placement of charges throughout the exterior ‘structural cage’ (tubular columns). The chances of doing this without anyone noticing is 0.00%. Especially by a “heck of a job,” grossly incompetent administration.

A stage managed event would likely collapse the towers in the order they were hit: yet WT 1 (the first tower hit, burned for 102 minutes and collapsed after WT 2 (the second tower hit, which burned for 56 minutes and was the first tower to collapse). The explanation for failure sequence lies in the anatomical location where each plane struck the respective towers.

A stage managed event would hardly need to demolish obscure WT 7: all PR value was already garnered from WT 1 & 2. There wasn’t anything particularly vital in WT 7. Why would anyone bother?

Detailed reports on WT 7′s collapse, which was unusual, are not unpersuasive given:
• Debris for WT 1 hit the building causing extensive damage and igniting fires;
• Building sprinkler systems/water pressure failure;
• The building burned for 6+ hours (from 10:28 am – 5:20 pm);
• Structural emphasis on a central column bay that ultimately failed;
• Codes stipulate fire protection ratings for building components 1-3 hours (depending on function) to enable safe egress of a burning building. Longer fire exposure risks failure. High-Rise buildings are not ‘fireproof’ (design weight and budget concerns) and greatly depend on sprinklers for life safety.

Thanks for the film link (I’ve seen it).

2,200 certified architects and engineers would call your parroting the official line on WTC 7 complete bs:

The number of licensed architects and engineers in the US is 105,847 + 822,575 = 928,422 (source: AIA & NCEES). 2,200 is 0.24% of the total. In other words, 99.76% are presumably satisfied with the studies already completed.

BTW “certified” isn’t mentioned on Richard Gage’s ae911truth web site, which lists “licensed” and “degreed.” A licensed architect is not the same an certified architect (NCARB certified for national practice, usually holding multiple state licenses). A “degreed” architect is not legally an architect and are not entitle to practice as such.

Excellent question to which I’ve never seen an adequate explanation. Probably why those who’d like people to believe the official report focus on ‘the twins’, to detract from WTC 7 and and fact of 2,200 certified architects and engineers disputing the clearly failed WTC 7 explanation:

http://architects-engineers.org/

Returning to the twin towers, if only the bottom of the towers had been set up with explosives, they’d have fallen over instead of fallen in their footprint. If they’d not been wired with explosives for a proper implosion, they wouldn’t have fallen as the did. If they had been properly prepared for implosion (which they clearly had been based on how they came down) it would have taken not weeks but many months or (more likely from my understanding of demolition preparations) easily more than a year to prepare them, requiring access to structural support that would hardly be unnoticeable. How it was done is the great enigma and meanwhile the images of the planes striking them is powerful evidence for the towers destruction in the minds of people without a clear understanding of the physics. Tough and good question you ask.

My manner of looking at this is to compile what doesn’t fit the official explanation and that is a whole lot of material, bearing in mind tons of stuff out there that doesn’t fit the official explanation is clearly deliberate disinformation. But its not difficult to sort through the worst of the disinformation applying open source intelligence analysis technique that doesn’t get bogged down; as opposed to where propaganda artists and related trolls would prefer you would get trapped when looking for a better focus. This is why WTC Building 7 is key to unraveling the facts of any factual ‘whodunnit.’

Meanwhile, here’s a rather tongue in cheek ’9/11 in five minutes’ (but very good setting up the problem of the official ‘whodunnit’ explanation.)

And here’s my little bit on the so-called ‘facts’

http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2013/05/12/1617/

^

[…] Source: Faking the Terrorist Threat – The Unz Review […]

2,200 certified architects and engineers would call your parroting the official line on WTC 7 complete bs:

http://architects-engineers.org/

WTC 7 is the extreme weak link in the official story

” . . . The ME and the Ukraine are perfect examples of how the US plays in the world’s sandboxes.”

Yeah, and don’t forget that Washington, District of Corruption is a sandbox filled with some of the worst problem children in the world.

http://911blogger.com/node/2487

I have question to posters.

I accept that there are too many unanswered questions re 9/11.
US Gov is hiding something, but can’t figure out what.
And I know governments, including US Gov, are quite capable of killing their own people to perpetuate their rule.
Operation “North Woods” is no myth.

However, assuming twin towers were brought down by controlled demolition, how were the explosives placed without anyone noticing ?
I mean somebody would have noticed something strange and said something.
A janitor, maintenance worker, a building supervisor,….
The buildings were never completely empty.
So how is it possible to keep something like that secret.
How is it possible for a bunch of demo guys laying down wires, explosive charges, etc for several days in an occupied building without an outsider calling cops.

I am no expert, but from what I have seen in TV programs, when they need to bring down a building, a specialized crew works in the empty building for several days.
Apparently it is a very precise job, to time the explosives just right, etc.

Maybe somebody who knows can explain.

I put the wrong Eric Lawyer video in my above post. Please watch the one below instead which doesn’t have the “spooky” music and deals with a very serious issue in a much better way.

I would also add to this the first-hand EYEWITNESS accounts of the firemen who were actually there. Do the people that call truthers “conspiracy-nuts” also call these firemen “conspiracy-nuts”?

Building 7’s sprinkler system/water pressure failed. Struck by debris from Tower 1 at 10:28 am, it was allowed to burn for 6+ hours. The structural design emphasized a central column bay that ultimately failed, leading to collapse at 5:20 pm. Codes usually stipulate fire protection (fireproofing) for structural members 1-3 hours (depending on function) to enable safe egress of a burning building.

It’s ironic Giuliani, now making a handsome living as a security expert, located the NYC Office of Emergency Management in the building, never thinking that the WTC would continue to be a prime terrorist target after the 1993 bombing. One wonders how much he charges his current clients.

You could be wrong.

http://phys.org/news/2015-10-historic-delft-einstein-god-dice.html#nRlv

Uh,totally backed by the rethuglicans.Stop the stupid polarization crap.They are essentially the same,both parties against our interests,with different window dressings to excite knuckleheads.

The whole 9/11 Truther argument for a conspiracy begins with, and ends with, the engineering and physics of the collapse of the Twin Towers.

You’re conveniently ignoring Building 7, which neatly imploded after the Twin Towers (Buildings 1 and 2) did, even though no plane ever struck it. That’s the strongest point made by truthers far and away.

http://lobelog.com/dennis-ross-blame-america-first/

Denis Ross has got the Blame America – ball rolling.

The clockboy from Irving Texas? He is from Sudan. that is a different country

Flight Simulators are not video arcade games..they are a very sophisticated technology that approximates real world flight very closely. The high-jackers got very good training if they passed the Flight Simulator tests. And don’t forget the unskilled Kamakaze Pilots of WW2…they sank a lot of US Navy Ships and killed Several thousand Americans serving in the Pacific.

The whole 9/11 Truther argument for a conspiracy begins with, and ends with, the engineering and physics of the collapse of the Twin Towers. If they loose this debate very badly…which they have…ignore everything that they claim is true that comes after the collapse of the TT-completely:its just jibber jabbering bullshit from psychotic delusionals and sociopaths such as Philosopher David Ray Griffith.

The tone-structure of the arguments by Truthers is very reminiscent of the deniers of species evolution.

Let me say at the outset that I am not making an appeal to Scientific Authority exclusively. I am asking people to read all the debates with the nutty Truthers that one can find on the internet and You Tube.

Recieved scientific opinion can be wrong and massively dishonest..a few examples:1)HIV causes AIDS…pumping vaccines into kids….Superstring bullshit physics……

Global Warming…I think its true…but the Global Warming Scientists are all arrogant filthy degenerate White Male Liberal Academics as is the Subhuman Scum Al Gore.

Ok..so what about Freeman Dyson’s recent comments. I take Freeman Dyson very seriously up to a point. If Professor Dyson wants to be taken seriously, he should refute all the research on elevated Co2 and abnormal plant growth.

It is the wrong move on Putin’s part if he is looking to raise the stakes. Imposing additional and tightening existing sanctions on Russia are easier for the West.

I have lately been imagining the world as a series of sandboxes where children play. In some of them, good times are had, everyone gets along, shares, laughs, etc. and then the bully from the US drops in–Fights start, pushing, shoving, bloody noses, sides taken. Ultimately everyone is removed from the sandbox, timed-out, or sent home, no one is left and the bully is sitting there all along, smug smile believing he has won. In the real world, that is a country (pick one) that has been totally destroyed and the US is celebrating how much better off everyone is. The ME and the Ukraine are perfect examples of how the US plays in the world’s sandboxes.

Dragon slayers need reinvent the dragon from time to time. Fear, after all, produces reliable budget growth. Terror threats for defense, sickness for health insurance, and unemployment for education. Few question the excessive inflation or attendant incompetence in any of these fields (easy credit is a great enabler).

If the pilots were in fact killed at the outset that would appear to prove that whoever killed them was confident of being able to control the aircraft adequately, presumably with reason. If you reject the report as unreliable then I’m not sure why you would accept thst the pilots were killed straightaway.

I don’t remember much of the detail about the flight training of the high jackers but half an hour spent Googling for “what aircraft did the 9/11 highjackers learn to fly” and reading the links suggests that quite a few of the highjackers got their pilot’s licences and then sought further training to become commercial pilots, that they were taught in simulators and that some were taught to fly multi-engined aircraft. Some of the “muscle” who also took flying lessons were reported as pretty bad at it. But they were only back up pilots.

Faking history to fake more of the same in the future .Blaming domestic industry of mass State terrorism on the foreign sources or on the enemies .- Israeli syle.

1 Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accused Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of “joining ISIS ..” http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4713779,00.html

2 Netanyahu Says Muslim Leader Convinced Hitler To Kill Jewish People
“Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews,” Netanyahu said.-http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/netanyahu-holocaust-muslims_56276ea5e4b02f6a900ea795

Oneday Netanhu’s great great offspring will blame America for supplying gas chamber, train compartments , locomotor rail engines to Hitler ,who did not know how to drive the Jews,( and will not mention Gypsies,Catholics,Polish ) to the camp -he would add.

Thanks for your persistence . Can you now please show us the Google search results on F 1 to F 35 current and future pilot’s testimonies /eye witness accounts and on the explosion of the muslim population?

Also, until it became clear that it wasn’t the usual high jack and was going to end with everyone dead the airline pilots would presumably have done what they were told. “Y

According to the 9-11 report the pilots were killed at the outset, not forced to fly around. Also, the small propeller aircraft that the hijackers trained on at the flight schools bear no relationship to flying jumbo-jets, no more than learning how to roller skate enables someone to race cars. Everyone has at least seen pictures of the cockpit of those jumbo-jets; it takes a lot of training and practice on those planes to be able to fly one, turning, changing altitudes, increasing speed, turning off transponders and auto-pilot, and so on, all things that were done by four teams that coordinated with each other. Not something simple that can be done by just anyone.

Always assumed the Litvinenko death was a result of smuggling of nuclear materials,that has somehow been transformed into another tedious propaganda piece against that great neocon hate figure. What patience the Russians have shown with us.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-litvinenko-files-was-he-really-murdered-819534.html

Mr. Giraldi, ISIS has chemical weapons they captured in Iraq? Does that mean chemical weapons that the U.S. gave the Iraqis or has ISIS succeeded in finding Saddam’s WMDs?

Good stuff Phil. The FBI has ‘solved’ numerous terror cases in the USA by creating them to begin with, taking advantage of losers, the marginally mentally ill and just plain dumb people, set up with entrapment, to make it look like they’re doing their job to ‘keep America safe’

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/23/law-enforcement-entrapment-terrorists.html

Another case recently in the news is ‘new suspects’ in the Lockerbie bombing:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/13877258.Lockerbie_suspect_was_almost_tried__says_former_FBI_agent/

As the case against the original suspect who’d been tried and convicted had fallen apart over the years, with a police chief refusing to go along with faked evidence and testimony provided courtesy of the CIA & FBI:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/police-chief-lockerbie-evidence-was-faked-1-1403341#axzz3pBgNN0Dy

Insofar as creating a dirty bomb, I suppose the only thing giving hesitation to the utterly corrupt American law enforcement pursuing a false flag to enhance their importance would be they’d have the ‘shine’ taken off the image they’d worked so hard to pump up (with faked evidence and entrapment and sometimes stories concocted from thin air.)

Insofar as any post-Soviet ‘nuclear black market’, few if any would match the CIA ‘sting’ that ran away from them and was ultimately responsible for world-wide nuclear proliferation:

http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/11/22/reorganizing-murder-inc/

^

They already have the White House, why worry about a submarine when you have Air Force One?

I’ve only flown the sort of small aircraft that one could if reasonably well co-ordinated learn to take off and land in somewhere closer to three or four than ten hours in good weather but I can readily understand that anyone with a few hours training – which the 9/11 pilots had received – could turn off an automatic pilot and use the controls to change the direction of the planes up and down and laterally. They might even have been able to reset automatic pilot settings to do most of it. Also, until it became clear that it wasn’t the usual high jack and was going to end with everyone dead the airline pilots would presumably have done what they were told. “You buzz the White House/Congress/Pentagon or we kill you and you take the chance that everyone will die because I’m not as good a pilot as you” then “Move over, very sorry to have lied, now you must hope Allah will be merciful”.

Speak for yourself. Many things she said, are known to others. The problem with her is that she still has hope for US police state and the criminal Clinton family which is unfortunate.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me considering the hardships Western sanctions have brought down on Russia. What is another $3B for Victoria Nuland’s budget?

She appears to be, if not a nutter, a self-serving and self-publicizing schemer who even propagates the absurd idea of the faked moon landings. Don’t tell me you’ve wasted your time listening to all those hours of garbage.

On an even more important issue, namely whether the continued emission of CO2 from burning fossil fuels threatens catastrophic global warming by the end of the century, which lot of reputable scientists’ “consensus”, peer reviewed and/or officially propagated opinions do you accept?

Don’t tell me you conscientiously choose experts to agree with on the WTC (and Pentagon?) events of 2001 but haven’t attended to a potential catastrophe for all mankind within 50 – 80 years….

find out who is responsible for the terror in the world.

https://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/kay-griggs-colonels-wife-tell-all-interview-4-of-4/

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/did-george-w-bush-do-all-he-could-to-prevent-911/411175/

Why don’t you google what actual living breathing airline pilots…many of them former F-14..F-15…F-18…and F-16 Fighter Pilots….have to say about that point you make and about slamming a passenger jet into the Pentagon. Are they part of this Great Conspiracy also?

I have had this discussion with Wally before here, and a few other places. Wally has been disposed off in debate. I don’t want to waste time on Wally and his nutty kind anymore. They have devastatingly lost the debate on the engineering and physics issues.

And while the policy wonk nitwits over at isteve.com debate ferociously back and forth about what Bush W knew or didn’t…..the post-9/11 Muslim population is exponentially exploding in the US…And they will be voting The Historic Native Born White American Majority into a violently persecuted racial minority in post-white Toilet Bowl America…9/11 is an insignificant historical event compared to this.

You are another 9/11 Conspiracy Crazie. Some people just can’t accept the fact 9/11 was not all that difficult to pull off…but it was.

Do you see 9-11 mentioned anywhere in the comment?
But, since you bring up the subject, you claim that 9-11 was “not all that difficult to pull off”. Do you think that even a talented person like yourself could fly one of those jumbo-jets? Presumably you’re not one of those “sniffers” so it should be easy for a guy like you to hit the Pentagon, for example, with one of those planes. Easy as pie.

A bit OT – Russia is attempting to force repayment of a $3b Yanukovich era loan, extended at sub-market levels in 2013 and due in December 2015. Most commercial loans were previously re-structured as part and parcel of a broader economic aid to the beleaguered nation. A refusal by Putin to recognise new terms, as he currently is, will very likely precipitate a default on the part of Ukraine, thus triggering adverse clauses and a Russian veto of a new $17.5 b IMF loan facility. This will have very bad consequences.

Each nuclear payload has a unique atomic signature based on manufacture so the Israelis would be found out as the source if Dimona generated the materials. Of course, they or some other actor could always procure foreign materials and thereby pursue a false flag bomb.

Great piece, Solonto.

I do hope, however, that Russia is wary of a “fatal embrace” with the Israeli madmen. I can see why such an alliance would please the Israelis; I cannot see what good it will do for Russia – especially in the long run.

Get serious, denier of science.

Thousands of architects, engineers, and skilled science professionals signed a rigorously vetted petition against the USG’s 9/11 nonsense, meaning that it is you who is the “Conspiracy Crazy” for believing the government’s utterly impossible and laughable 9/11 conspiracy theory.

http://www.ae911truth.org

What Science Says About the Destruction of World Trade Center Buildings 1, 2, and 7

http://www.beyondmisinformation.org/#beyond-misinformation

And it’s an established scientific fact that military grade nano-thermite was used in the 9/11 attack.

Military grade nano-thermite was found in the WTC debris by the U.S. Geological Survey & Niels Harrit of the University of Copenhagen, and 8 more scientists.

http://www.ae911truth.org

The absurd ‘Muslims in caves’ cannot make military grade nano-thermite.

Brilliant comment, Solon !!!
Yeah, how about that ? How about asking our greatest ally in the world for a little favor in return ? We’re best pals aren’t we ?

As far as part 2 of the thesis is concerned, cozying up to Saudi sure is the fastest way to destroy them. You’ll know we’re almost there when they’ll be building holocaust memorials in Rihad and buying Israel F-35s

“Did the US Congress/Senate debate, advise and consent to the treaty that formed this alliance?”

Uh, which “treaty of alliance” between Israel and the U.S. would that be? You must be referring to “NOTO” (Not Our Treaty Obligation).

Why would ISIS want to use Toyota pickup trucks for that sophisticated work? They are ill-equipped for that task. ISIS probably acquired some of those mobile vans Saddam Hussein was using to concoct chemicals weapons of mass destruction (that former SOS and former Chairman of the JCS Colin Powell mentioned in his UN speech before the Iraq War) and some of those aluminum rods that were clearly designed for nuclear enrichment. With just a little tinkering, voila! Mobile nuclear enrichment vans. Toyota pickup trucks are so yesterday. Even ISIS realizes it by now.

McCain and Thornberry interviewed by the always upfront and super-honest Michael O’Hanlon (whose Brookings paycheck depends upon him being super-honest, dontcha know) –

McCain whacking away at Iran; bashing away at Russia and Putin;Thornberry interjecting Greek chorus-like: “America is a force for good!” (falsetto voice).

McCain said something interesting: “Israel is partnering with Saudi Arabia!”

Yes indeed Israel seems to be not so much pulling up stakes in USA (that would be too much to hope for) but rather heavily hedging.

Early in 2015 Yossi Alpher began talking about his book on Israel’s Periphery Doctrine. He explained, first, that David Ben Gurion established as one of the major elements of Israel’s “grand strategy” that Israel ally with a strong power, preferably a superpower, as Jews have done as far back as their earliest days. USA is the current superpower-of-choice.

(The question the popped into my mind was, Did the American people get a vote on this “strategy” of Israel’s? Did the US Congress/Senate debate, advise and consent to the treaty that formed this alliance? Did the US Congress/Senate debate the executive orders that formed this alliance?)

(Another notion that came to mind: Israeli rhetoric never speaks of the support Israel obligates itself to supply to USA; the relationship is one-sided. If it were a true alliance, then instead of USA worrying about finding “moderate rebels” to carry out tasks it wishes to perform in Syria, USA’s “closest ally in the region” Israel, the strongest military in the region, beneficiary of massive amounts of US taxpayer dollars and weaponry, and right next door to Syria, would be delegated to take care of the problem. Doesn’t that make common sense? Why hasn’t anything like that been berated by US legislators & policy makers?)

Part 2 of Alpher’s thesis is that Israel has relied on regional “pillars” in its neighborhood to protect its periphery. Iran had been a crucial pillar in that doctrine. Israel has flailed and floundered in the absence of that Iranian pillar.

The conclusion of Alpher’s book suggests that Israel will come increasingly closer to Saudi Arabia.

It appears this strategy is being implemented.

Enter Putin and the Russians.

In the above interview w/ O’Hanlon, McCain was nonplussed to note that Russia is selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, and later in the conversation, that Israel is drawing closer to Saudi Arabia.

Pat Lang’s blog, http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/09/httpwwwreuterscomarticle20150921us-mideast-crisis-israel-russia-iduskcn0rl0gv20150921-1.html
has hosted several thoughtful discussions on Putin’s conversations with Netanyahu.

The other day, Putin’s forces warned off Israeli jets that encroached on the Syria-Lebanon border, Russia’s zone of activity.
But Russia did not fire upon IAF.

Is it possible, and is McCain capable of wrapping his mind around the possibility that Putin is “keeping the options open” to an alliance of Russia-Israel-Saudi Arabia-China-Iraq and even Iran, either in a mutually respectful relationship with USA and Europe or as a grand alliance adversary, — your choice, Tokyo McCain.

Should such a choice ever be presented to the actual American people, count my vote as firmly in favor of a mutually respectful, free and fair trade and cultural exchange relationship of the USA with the Putinesque, penumbral grand alliance.
It’s a vote George Washington would endorse even if it gives Dennis Ross the agita. http://www.earlyamerica.com/milestone-events/george-washingtons-farewell-address-full-text/

“The supposed ‘war on terror’ has been a bonanza for many. They’ve raided the public treasury and billions upon billions have disappeared into the pockets and bank accounts of those involved with this supposed war. Contracts for this, contracts for that, increased spending for the military, more spying, more money for internal security, more everything, the money just melts away. This ‘war on terror’ is really the greatest plundering of the American treasury in our history.”

And that was a primary goal of staging 9/11.

Ultimately 9/11 is the foundation from which all this arises, all explanations revert to ‘Remember 9/11′.

It has provided the convenient and unchallengeable excuse for labeling anything that the US and the Israeli governments (one and the same) do not like as being “terrorist, terrorist inspired”, etc.

Staged 9/11 provides the rationale for censoring free speech & free inquiry, seizing control of the internet.

The impossible as claimed 9/11 has set in motion a security industry which knows no limits to it’s contrived “threats”. Very profitable.

Anything and everything can now be defined as a “threat” or any site can be labeled potential terrorist target”. Very profitable. Funding & more funding.

so essentially:

- The government’s laughable & impossible 9/11 conspiracy theory is what drives US / Israeli policies.

- ’9/11′ has been an immensely profitable scam for various players in the US and Israel.

- ’9/11′ provides excuses for our disastrous & mass murdering foreign policy of both the US & Israel.

- ’9/11′ provides excuses for the theft of our constitutional rights.

- ’9/11′ provides excuses for the enormous & continuous increase in government power.

Yet the US govt. cannot change laws of physics, the government’s bizarre conspiracy theory is impossible.

And it’s an established scientific fact that military grade nano-thermite was used in the 9/11 attack.
It was found at the WTC by the USGS & Niels Harrit of Univ. of Copenhagen, and 8 more scientists.

http://www.ae911truth.org

What Science Says About the Destruction of World Trade Center Buildings 1, 2, and 7 http://www.beyondmisinformation.org/#beyond-misinformation

Exactly.

Given it’s massive funding, due to the fraud of 9/11, how could this story even happen if the US security agencies were doing their job? What the hell are we paying for?

No matter how you look at it the story stinks to high heaven.

“The Democratic Party has over the past year murdered in COLD BLOOD three thousand Conservative Orthodox Christian Russian Ukranians including young pregnant women.”

Source?

One day…Clockboy Mohammad from Somalia will be the Commander of a US Navy Nuclear Sub with Trident Nuclear Missiles…Commanding a Somalian “American” and Pakistani”American” Submariner Crew….Clockboy is an Annapolis shoe-in!!!

You are another 9/11 Conspiracy Crazie. Some people just can’t accept the fact 9/11 was not all that difficult to pull off…but it was. The Muslim immigrant yoots just took advantage of a Nation of White Male jock sniffers who were more interested in jock sniffing than paying attention to post-1965 Immigration Policy which in the very near future will be a total-complete-irreversible death sentence for millions of jock sniffing White Males.

Every alleged ‘terrorist plot’ that have been supposedly foiled were government set-ups. Those who have been arrested in one ‘plot’ or another were invariably mentally slow patsies surrounded by government agents who egged them on and walked them through it all. The dull-witted patsies get sent to prison while the police agencies get more funding for them to continue their good work. Not a real terrorist plot in the entire bunch. It’s all about finagling more money and keeping people scared. The supposed ‘war on terror’ has been a bonanza for many. They’ve raided the public treasury and billions upon billions have disappeared into the pockets and bank accounts of those involved with this supposed war. Contracts for this, contracts for that, increased spending for the military, more spying, more money for internal security, more everything, the money just melts away. This ‘war on terror’ is really the greatest plundering of the American treasury in our history.

I think the neocons are diligently stealthily trying to impress the Americans again why and how to confront Russia and Muslim now it is a lot easier since Russia is supporting Assad, one old stone from out of Iraqi WMD underground palace would kill to nuisance birds .
Neocons are certain that if tomorrow Assad were called Arenda and a friend of US no one will notice and no one will raise voice even if one had noticed . They also know that the Americans would not stir in their chairs while glued to the TV if they were told that Assad were DEAS/ISIS because of so many “S” sitting in the middle of the names.
This story also carried by Chicago Tribune is just a little more complex than the Asssad-Deash-IS ( mainly due to the fact that the newspaper devoted more than few columns to string the lies together)

Creating a narrative can though be very dangerous . Neocons through GOP are suggesting for no- fly- zone now over Syria (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/19/us/elections/presidential-candidates-on-syria-no-fly-zone.html?ref=politics&_r=0)
imparting same time the old memory of successful intervention against Iraq and Ghaddafi but not articulating the reality of Big Angry Russian Bird’s ability to give a finger to the stalled caravan of therse murderous robots. Sure once one of these thugs get elected,the donors would remind the president through one of the TV chats of his promises to protect America from Russian planes flying over the desert thousands of miles away .To keep his next term,he or she might simply join the caravan or ratchet upressure or bail himself put by promising another 100 billions to Israel free and selling another 100 billions worth of gadgets to Saudis.This is the way they have become prisoners of their words in the past . Neocons are thinking – Why not again , it has worked- lets try again.

The blowback from Russia! That never happens. Why should it. Neocons have answered that question succeessfully in the past . 911 was not a blowback . To suggest so is antisemitism! Biden,Dempsey,and Petraeus suggested mildly of the difficulties US find itself in Arab because of Israeli behaviors to Palestine. Per neocons those ate lies . They simply hate us,our freedom our way of life,democratic Israel,and they hate their rulers,poverty,and their weakness! To suggest anything else Isarel antisemitism!

But now the same neocons are teaching Ashton Carter and a few other how Russia would face the wrath of Sunnis for supporting Assad .There would be blowback.American as an obedient sheep will , are grazing on the both ideas as their main diet .

I guess one can argue that Americans are looking into this nuclear smuggling report and thinking of blowback . But that is very unlikely . Americans are not only told what to read and what to think but also what to feel. The coverage leads one down all the three elements in a straight line . One at the end of the journey,doesn’t see lies,praganda,distortion but the evil angry violent conspiracies against West from Russia and Muslim.

In all the so-called “terrorist” prevention arrests stateside that FBI touted as successful anti-terror operations recent years, the “terror” plots were hatched and instigated by FBI informants who had infiltrated the clueless groups with overactive imaginations, and goaded them to do something stupid for which FBI could arrest them – and have one of their famous press conferences, with AGs, suits, and serious looking men and women sporting FBI breakers.

(ex: 2007 John F. Kennedy International Airport “attack” plot)

Yet FBI failed to do anything about the real Boston bombing terrorists, even after Russians warned FBI about the Tsarnaev brothers: several American civilians were killed and maimed.
And nobody has been held accountable for the negligence.

And of course all the $10s of billions American taxpayers annually give to a dozen US intelligence agencies was not enough to detect and prevent a real terrorist act that killed something like 3,000 people on American soil.

What a charade.

The Democratic Party has over the past year murdered in COLD BLOOD three thousand Conservative Orthodox Christian Russian Ukranians including young pregnant women.

Take the guns away from The Democratic Party!!!!…Gun Control we can all support!!!!

The SPLC=The Democratic Party=The number one TERRORIST ORGANIZATION on the Planet Earth!!!

Constructing an actual nuclear weapon would be well beyond its engineering and technical capabilities in any event

Oh come on Mr. Giraldi! Get real! Everyone knows that the beds in the back of those Toyota pickups that ISIS drive around in would make a PERFECT lab to build nuclear bombs in

Maybe Israel will use some of its leftover nuclear waste from their Dimona nuclear weapons facility to set off a ‘dirty bomb’ in the USA and get their War of Terror against the nations Israel doesn’t like back on track.

I must admit that I tuned out of this MSM story the moment I read Russia and FSB mentioned as a party involved in selling the nuclear material to ISIS. If I wanted to watch a story such as this, the idiot box is full of crappy US terrorism shows, with plenty of caricatures of the Muslim terrorists and the Russian KGB, FSB, mafia types.

US media: Russian women are all whores, Russian men are all mean mafiosi with bad English accents (unforgivable, why can’t they at least learn some decent English?). Americans who consume such shyte are just good little regime slaves. Besides, you have to live scared to be fleeced of taxes for all the wars that the US Government does.

This was just another failed plot of another failed screenwriter. All US MSM programs are merging into a single genre: scare.

Another day, another lie, in the heaven of freedom and democracy.