We can agree about that. Sadly, as usual, truth is the first casualty of war.

Sorry to disappoint again, but I live in the States since 1991 and have no access to Russian propaganda. But I do know the US propaganda about Ukraine, and I know the reality from many friends and relatives living there, from Lvov and Kiev to Kharkov region and Lugansk. That’s how I know that the US propaganda about Ukraine is 90% blatant lies and 10% truth twisted beyond recognition. Compared to it, Soviet propaganda was a paragon of truthfulness.

Solzhenitsyn was a liar and very likely a NKVD/MGB (later KGB) informer. If you want to know the truth, read Varlam Shalamov (e.g., Kolyma tales), and many others.

Sorry to disappoint, but I do speak Russian and Ukrainian, the latter better than most self-proclaimed Ukrainian “patriots”. What’s more, I grew up in Lugansk, and in 2015 had to organize evacuation of my 90-year old mother from Lugansk to Russia. Now she lives with us in TN. She was reluctant to move, but agreed to that after Ukrainian shell exploded near the multi-apartment building she lived in and broke all windows in one room. Ukrainian army continuously shelled the area where she lived, which had ~40 multi-apartment buildings, two schools (one of which I attended; Ukrainian shell hit it; luckily, only one of the entrances was damaged), three kindergartens, and nothing else. That’s one of the reasons I always call a spade a spade: current Ukrainian regime is Nazi in everything they do and aspire to.
I have lots of classmates in Lugansk and I have the accounts of those who crossed the border with Russia. Their stories match each other and my mother’s story, and I have no reason to distrust any of them. I don’t know about Saratov: my info is from the border crossing into Rostov region, Izvarino, which many refugees used, some enduring hours of waiting before crossing, with little kids and elderly parents.

I forgot. We had this conversation before. For someone with access to Russian language media you are not very skilled at interpreting the propaganda. Perhaps you don’t want to.

I saw that part of that exodus when it arrived in Saratov where I have a business. My PA, single, under 30 complained that the young Ukrainian men were in Russia. Most left when told that they would have to pick potatoes in rural areas to receive any support.

The refugees from Lugansk who made it as far as Cardiff were mostly families, without their fathers including the teenager whose school exchange made them eligible for a visa but those were a few hundred and largely the well off.

And what are your qualifications? How much Russian do you speak?

Part of the missiles payload was designed to slice through wings.

Solsjenytsyn explains the why excellently in his book on jews in Russia since 1800.
Jewry just had to blame themselves, harsh trading practices.
I have the book, trying to find out if there exists a translation of his second book, jews in the USSR since 1917…

The books you refer to are volumes 1 and 2 of Two Hundred Years Together, in his discussion of which, Adeyinka Makinde said this:

The book was published in Russia amid fears that it would electrify anti-Semitic sentiment and present an opportunity to calumniate the Jews. It became a bestseller there, but in the more than a decade which has elapsed since then no English language translation materialised. The reluctance of the publishing industry to put into print a substantive work created by the winner of a Nobel Prize is a development that warrants close scrutiny.

Solzhenitsyn: The Price of Blacklisting a Nobel Laureate’s Book
By Adeyinka Makinde
(published online as a free, 13-page, pdf download, 23 August 2013)

I believe it is still the case that no official complete English translation has been produced by “the publishing industry”. However, Makinde does say that

The unavailability of Solzhenitsyn’s work in the English language has meant that the limited translations available have been facilitated by White nationalists who, largely disinterested [sic] in the first volume, have unsurprisingly focussed on the second where they are keen to give emphasis to those passages which can be projected in a manner to fit in with their views.

In February 2017 The Occidental Observer site last year publicised one such “limited translation”:

There is a project to publish (long-overdue) translations of Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s 200 Years Together. So far, they have posted Chapters 2, 3, 6, and 7, with more on the way. The website is: https://twohundredyearstogether.wordpress.com/ The translation reads very smoothly and seems quite professional.

… you are right as long as you can explain the falling plane video. It is the cell phone video – the weak resolution one. Never the less the falling plane has the main fuseladge and the right wing intact while the left wing, the tail and the cocpit blown away.

the 2 out of 3 main construction points blown away by one rocket?
the 2 out of 3 blown by a rocket barerly strong enough to savadge one soft element on the other side of the plane?

Comparing to MH17 the Glivitz Radio hoax looks competent.

Boring theme. A few days after the shoot-down the reason was clear, crystal clear. A rocket, because pictures can talk if you can read them. Just some knowledge of physics needed. Nobody here?

Most likely nobody understands. So lets use Occam’s razor, the easiest answer contains the most possibility.

In this way the why is clear as the reason was. An accident caused by an systematic error in the weapon.

Simply by the fact that this radar bearing rocket developed in the 70ths of last century
comes to the world of 2014.

Full with frequencies in GigaHz bands from mobile phones, flooded with the radar waves from the plane itself (one or several systems in the front radome) and maybe the microwave in the business class pantry too.

Are you all too stupid to see this simple facts and the conclusions? Even if you know that a similar rocket shoots down a freight liner over the Mediterranean during a military exercise (which is near impossibility and the Ukrainians paid compensation for). I cant believe that you all are dumb as dry bread. But i have reason because i posted this in 2014 too. at this website.

Most people pick a side like they pick a sports team that appeals to them and stay with that side regardless of what the evidence reveals or does not reveal. It’s just a game of tribal bullshitting and posturing on the internet.

With no risk to life or limb and nothing important at stake it’s easy to confidently construct “truths” based on cherry picked “facts” that line up with ones geopolitical sympathies.

With some skin in the game I confidently predict that would change.

Of course.

Whenever I start taking all this “Internet conversations” serious I re-read a quote I picked from a post of some lady on some other forum:

One thing I’ve learned through my many, many years of having my blog and trying to figure out what’s happening for myself- That only a very few are interested in truth as can be discerned to the best of one’s ability- The rest just want, like high school, to follow the ‘in crowd’ and belong.

I’d just add a couple of psychopaths, several sociopaths and, also, handful of “paid guys”.

Apart from “paid guys” and a few persons who are trying to figure out things, the rest simply cater for their psychological, mostly emotional, needs.
Almost all of that is, simply, an “online therapy”.

Nothing wrong there, IMHO.
That’s simply how we are hard wired.
Just take a look at social media. That’s us.
This place is “populated” by “us”.

What is good, though, is that free speech is, still, allowed here and every now and then there is a very good comment.
Such comments are worth skipping/skimming/wading through the rest.
And, I really commend the owner for that “ignore” button. Helps a lot.

Good post. I wonder how many people who claim to “know” exactly what happened in instances such as the Syrian gas attacks and the airliner downing over Ukraine, where there are conflicting stories and propaganda from two or more players creating elaborate tales for the faithful to “debunk”, would bet their life against a Magic Truth Machine. So if the Truth Machine validates a theory as correct they win a nice prize, but if the theory is wrong they pay with their life.

My guess is not many would do so. Most people pick a side like they pick a sports team that appeals to them and stay with that side regardless of what the evidence reveals or does not reveal. It’s just a game of tribal bullshitting and posturing on the internet.

With no risk to life or limb and nothing important at stake it’s easy to confidently construct “truths” based on cherry picked “facts” that line up with ones geopolitical sympathies.

With some skin in the game I confidently predict that would change

Did anybody tell you that lying requires more brains than telling the truth? You are unqualified. I know who was there from people who actually saw that exodus: the refugees were ~80% women, children, and older people. Your supervisor won’t pay you for something as clumsy as this.

The Donbass refugees going to Russia were mostly young men. In Saratov, 2000 out of 3500, for example.

As good ods fashion principles in investigating any crime.
FOLLOW THE MONEY
CUI PODESTA(BONO)?
Enough said as more mendacious accusations from pax-amaericana and all their vassals come storming through these events that have occured since Yugoslavia to this very day.
HAVE YOU NO SHAME OR IS HUMANITY DOOMED ?

Thanks! I never read most of these books. Will be in illuminating reading.
Meteor crater is an interesting place, but it’s a bit of a side trip if you go from Phoenix to the Grand Canyon. We went there on a separate trip, via I-10. Never been to Walnut Creek. Too late now: I moved to TN.
I was to Everglades with my daughter. My most vivid memory is the profusion of mosquitoes. Anti-mosquito spray works for all of 5 min, and then they are back. On the way back I bought a very appropriate bumper sticker, with red cross, mosquito, and words “I gave blood at Everglades”. I have better memories of the Biscayne reef in Florida (also a national park), although Hawaiian coral reefs and those on St. John island in the US Virgin Islands are much more impressive. I liked St. John best because we were there during the hurricane season in September, so there were very few people. In essence, you had every bay to yourself. The temperature of the water allows you to stay in indefinitely.
What I like about Tony Hillerman (in addition to the fact that he is entertaining) is that his perspective is not quite white. I think white man’s perspective on Indians distorts things. They have a different view of life, not clouded by the pursuit of money, which leads our elites to the destruction of the world right now. If Trump keeps current suicidal course in Syria, all these great places and most humans can be destroyed in the death throws of the Empire. Looks like boundless greed is the most destructive and dehumanizing force on Earth.

Quite pleased too see that more than 80% of the places you name I visited.
You do not mention Walnut Creek, or Meteor Crater.
From Meteor Crater I took an dirt road, still quite well remember the rocks I managed to drive over without uninsured damage with the RV, great admiration for automatic gearboxes with fluid coupling.
I made the tourist round SF LA Las Vegas twice, but along different roads.
Indian culture, quite a number of books, but of the SW
Edward H. Spicer, ‘Cycles of Conquest, The Impact of Spain, Mexico, and the United States of the Southwest’, 1533 – 1960′, Tucson, 1962, 1970
Las Vegas, the best meal I ever had.
Not cheap.
Grand Canyon, on foot until Plateau Point, when I was again in our RV my idea was that I’d ruined my knees forever.
Death Valley, going down there on a dirt road with an automatic gearbox and drum brakes, no great fun, engine braking just at 30MPH.
Near Mammoth Lakes so much snow that we had to buy chains.
Indian literature:
⦁ Paul Kane, ‘Wanderings of an artist among the Indians of America’, 1859, 1996, New York
⦁ Walker D. Wyman, ‘Nothing but prairie and Sky, Life on the Dakota Range in the Early Days’, 1954, University of Oklahoma
⦁ Margaret Irvin Carrington, ‘Absaraka, Home of the Crows, Experience of an officers wife on the Plains’, 1868, 1983 University of Nebraska
⦁ William Bartram, ed. Mark Van Doren, `Travels of William Bartram, Trough North & South Carolina, Georgia, East & West Florida, Cherokee, Muscogulges, Chataws’, 1791, 1955, New York
⦁ Hugh L. Willoughby, ‘Across the Everglades, A Canoe Journey of Exploration’, 1898, 1992, Port Salerno, Florida
⦁ Marjory Stoneman Douglas, ‘The Everglades: River of Grass’, 1947, 1995, Marietta, GA
⦁ J.W.Powell, ‘The exploration of the Colorado river and its canyons’, 1895, 1961, New York
⦁ Francis Parkman, ‘The Oregon trail’, New York, 2002, Boston, 1883, 1847
Stan Hoig, “The Sand Creek Massacre’, Oklahoma, 1961, 1982

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Only downtown SF looks European (even Chinatown), if you go further afield or come to Oakland, it’s “anywhere USA” or worse.
Personally, I like Las Vegas. It’s mindless entertainment that was not done on the cheap. If you know math and don’t gamble, it is also a bargain. I was there last time a few years ago and noticed that it is becoming more upscale. The fountain with classical music and light show in front of Bellagio, as well as their restaurant on the edge of that fountain, or the restaurant in Cosmopolitan with a view of that fountain, are pretty impressive (not cheap, though).
I never was in Badlands, unfortunately. There are many stunning places in the West, including national parks, such as Bryce Canyon, Zion, Sequoia (worth visiting twice, in summer and in winter – it looks very different), Grand Canyon (you want to come from the South), Saguaro, Redwood, Yosemite, Arches, Canyonlands, Mesa Verde, etc. South Dakota is also worth seeing; in fact, Mount Rushmore is the least interesting thing there, but the vistas are very impressive and surprisingly beautiful. If you have time and inclination, you can drive from Phoenix to Las Vegas via Hoover Dam – the drive is as long as from Madrid to Warsaw, but the views are stunning. The absence of people and towns improves them. Just make sure you have full tank of gas North of I-10 and a gallon of water per person. Or you can drive from Phoenix to Grand Canyon via Petrified Forest and Painted Desert: everything North of Flagstaff looks like the Moon or Mars.
In the East, I think only Mammoth Cave is worth visiting (both sides, so you want two tours that you need to book ahead to squeeze them into one day). You can also stay overnight in the motel inside the park and see deer coming close to your balcony in the evening.
As to locals, you cannot expect high school dropouts you encounter at gas stations, fast food eateries, and near-highway motels to know history (or anything else, for that matter). They usually do the only thing they know how: serve you in those undemanding capacities.
If you like Indian culture, you might enjoy reading Hillerman – all his stories are in AZ and NM, and although the stories themselves are rather simplistic, he conveys the spirit of the Indian country, Navaho and Pueblo Indians, pretty well. Gives you a different perspective on white culture.

Anything white over fifty years old got a historical marker, when I visited the USA for the first time in 1978, the tourist trip, LA, SF, las Vegas.
If anything astonished me it was Las Vegas.
On the one hand why people want to go there, on the other the organisation, 24/7 ‘entertainment’ going on.
SF looks European, LA is a disaster.
Miami, when one speaks english one is discriminated, my wife speaks spanish reasonably, when she switched to that language she was welcome.
Not far from Hyatville, a later trip, Seattle to Minneapolis, 30.000 years continued habitation was unearthed.
When I visited the place there was hardly anything to see, a girl I asked said ‘yeah, the petroglyphs’.
I saw them, and got some information in the visitor centre, a hut of maybe three by four metres.
Yet there were Indian civilisations galore
Walnut Creek is such a place.
USA madness, Hearst Castle, and the Spanish monastery in Miami.
Paul Kane, ‘Wanderings of an artist among the Indians of America’, 1859, 1996, New York
Ronald Wright, ‘Stolen Continents, Conquest and Resistance in the Americas’, 1992, London
But indeed the USA scenery is unbelievable when one comes from a country more and more resembling LA.
But I think the Badlands impressed me most, huge areas with nothing.
I was lucky in by accident entering at the back door, from the east.

US NE looks funny to Europeans: a building constructed 100 years ago is considered old, whereas in countries that actually have history anything built in the last 300 years is considered new. One of the best thing about Americans is their sense of humor. In AZ you can buy a sign saying “On this spot 100 years ago nothing happened”. It describes most of the US.
The nature is great in the West. I lived 6 years in AZ, we traveled every other weekend, always saw something new, and did not even exhaust all possibilities. The East is boring by comparison: from Atlantic to Chicago everything is the same, except near the coast the concentration of people is many times greater. Small towns in most of the Eastern US are best described “anywhere USA”. Appalachians in the East are considered mountains, whereas they are hills at best. But there is a lot more science in the East, whereas in the West only California has something to be proud of in this regard. Seattle in the only place in the WA state that has decent research.
Modern US crossed out its pre-Columbian history, but you can tell where there is history by comparing art. In the East someone like Warhol is considered an artist, which shows well how barren the field actually is. In the West there is true art that clearly grew out of Indian traditions. Art is a good illustration of the old British joke: “there is nothing easier than creating a perfect English lawn – just sow the grass and mow it for 300 years”. Yet most of Europe accepted the US as its overlord. Looks like cultures also have their old age dementia.

How about Flight 370? Far more interesting and
controversial.

Why on earth would Russia gain anything from shooting down the plane? Western sanctions assault on the Russian Federation had been ongoing for some time before this incident. The US is willing to kill its own people, ala 9/11. The deep state is malicious and dangerous and it is the alt internet that makes our use of same to glean information that we would never to see in the MSM. The US has been trying to provoke Russia into a war and Putin hasn’t taken the bait. The senseless idiots in the west don’t seem to realise that Russian nuclear weaponry is supperia to our own and life on earth would surely end; except for the wealthy elites who run our country who would be safe in our D.U.M.B’s

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Not quite, I long ago drove from Seattle to Minneapolis, blue highways.
What kind of people the farmers were was, I did not ask them, obvious to me.
French farmers, like one sees French farms in France, Dutch or German, the same.
Orange City, the Netherlands of the fifties, as Jonathan Raban describes in his book on how he went down the Missisippi, teaching evolution in Orange City, out of a job.
The USA does have cultural differences, such as Chinatown in San Francisco.
But I agree, in general, a hamburger culture.
I must add that I never visited the NE, what interested me in the USA was the scenery, and USA history, history that most in the USA deny that it existed before white man entered.
Yet USA history goes back at least 30.000 years.

Indeed:
Eric Zemmour, ‘Le Suicide Francais’, 2014 Paris

Americans are a nationality in a political, but not in an ethnic sense. I always appreciated cultural variety of Europe. I liked the difference between France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria, Czech republic, Switzerland, UK, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, etc. It used to be that in Europe you drive a couple of hours and enter a different country with distinct language, culture, architecture, cuisine, etc (whereas in the US you drive six hours on a highway and see exactly the same red barn). So, I agree with you 100%. In fact, I am sad that because of EU bureaucracy Europe is committing suicide.

I think you are purposely conflating things that are not the same. Tried and true arguing technique: claim that your opponent said something nonsensical, then show how nonsensical it is.
I am against open borders, I strongly believe that each country should keep its borders closed and should not fall for the ruse of “refugees”. I also believe that many EU countries are committing suicide by admitting lots of people with incompatible cultures. Besides, genuine refugees are usually women, children, and elderly (say, like Donbass refugees going to Russia). When the “refugees” are mostly able-bodied young males of draft age, they are not refugees, they are an invasion army. You can thank your EU bureaucracy for the surrender of Europe, which I used to like as a great vacation destination and will miss.
My point is that people of all colors, religions (or lack thereof), and national origins can be smart or dumb, hard-working or lazy, law abiding or prone to breaking the law, etc. There is no correlation between any of these things with their color, nationality, or religion. What’s more, smart people change their ways to fit the prevailing culture of their country of residence. BTW, the US population (with the exception of Native Americans who survived genocide) is composed of a variety of immigrants. It used to be the strength of the country, before elites took over and imposed “political correctness”.

I am just against any kind of nationalism

Ah, so you won’t mind if your neighborhood is settled by an influx of mosque-building, polygamous Muslims opposed to girls’ education, or Africans practitioners of Voudoo, or Sikhs for a Sikh homeland. All good people no doubt, but more concerned with taking advantage of high American wages, cheap housing, reliable electrical supplies, etc. than in assimilating to American culture.

You are, in other words, for open borders, even if that means American wages and the American standard of living converging with those of the Third World while America’s social cohesion disintegrates, as tens and even hundreds of millions flood in across the borders in order to take advantage of America’s prosperity created through the sweat and toil of the native born or their ancestors.

No idea what nationality you have, but if any nation is proud of itself, it is the USA.
But nationalism has nothing to do with judging, or being proud.
I’m a Dutch nationalist, I valued the country that existed, that my forefathers created.
It no longer exists.
Yet, half the year w’re in France, and respect the French.
They’re different, but so what ?
I respect them too for resisting the attempts to destroy the French culture.
In any country I visited I respected the people and the culture, it is theirs, not mine.

I am not complaining, as antisemitism does not affect me in any way. I am just against any kind of nationalism, as my experience shows that judging people by their national or racial origin is simply stupid. Usually people who have no personal achievements to be proud of (simply put, losers) take pride in their nationality, religion, race, and similar things they acquired without personal effort.

” Anti-Jewish pogroms were a long-standing tradition in much of what now is Ukraine. ”

Never heard of pro jewish pogroms.
But the problem with you, and people like you, that they like complaining, but apparently never asked themselves why.
Yet, Solsjenytsyn explains the why excellently in his book on jews in Russia since 1800.
Jewry just had to blame themselves, harsh trading practices.

I have the book, trying to find out if there exists a translation of his second book, jews in the USSR since 1917, to my surprise the cheapest book on sale, the first book, is some $ 70.
This $ 70 is the german translation.
Prices like this often indicate that books are bought up, to prevent that they are read.
Cannot remember what I paid long ago, but I hardly ever pay more than € 20 for a book.

Please do read
‘From prejudice to destruction’, Jacob Katz, 1980, Cambridge MA
This jewish Israeli historian explains German antisemitism.
He’s the exception, all the others just ‘explain’ antisemitism by antisemitism.

” The nation state system fosters uncontrolled capitalism. ”

What do you think the present strikes in France are for ?
To prevent that uncontrolled capitalism is introduced in France.
The French strikers know quite well that just the nation state can protect them.
They fear privatization, and they’re right.

I thought we established a few years back that the plane was taken down by Howard Stern:

An interesting point.

Now, there is another.
Starting from:

….payment is due to the capitalist owner …

what happens if the payment is not paid?
We know what happens. The state enforces the law which demands the payment.
Key word “enforces”.

So, you are, maybe, correct, up to a point, but missing that “enforcement” element. For me, the key element.

There is a mechnism to enforce that payment.
Let’s follow it.
International laws, international courts, then economic pressures…all nine yards.

And when all that fails what happens: Regime change. The…”power projection mechanism” of West steps in. Cutting to the chase, US military.

At the moment the enforcer of global capitalism is US military, when you think about it.
Yes, I know it’s oversimplification but it is the core of all this.

So, those multinationals do need an enforcer.

True, ideally they’ll want some multiracial/multicultural force, as any preferable workforce today.
The problem is…motivating people to kill, let alone die for something, demands a bit more than a paycheck and medical.
And, at the moment, only the “blood and soil” provides that type of motivation.

Even the modern empire’s military is based on US flag and US patriotism. That’s sort of (tragicomic) funny because the biggest losers in the current game are the troopers in that military, but let’s stick to the topic here.
Second best, Russian, Russian flag and patriotism.
Third, China…….
Etc.

So…things are a bit more complicated there than simply “corporations rule the world”.
Just a little bit more.

I think the question of what is best for the world is best left to the 8 million that live in it; humanity should decide on its government every ten years.
The nation state system fosters uncontrolled capitalism. The nation state system is a middle man between the global wealth of a very few and the slave poverty of the mass of 8 billion.. The problem with capitalism is that it is such a powerful system of economics nothing can block its path.
Uncontrolled, capitalism is like the game of monopoly: in that game, payment is due to the capitalist owner at most landing spots on the playing board; unless the party landing on such spot already owns the spot landed on with each turn at play. In the end, the game of monopoly wipes out everyone; it transfers everyone’s wealth to but one player, the winner. Everyone else is a broke worthless loser.
Without internationally enforced rules that prevent powerful, large mega monopolies corporations (the public is unable to vote to change the corporate nature or to restructure by voting those Board of Directors who mange the mega-corporation) to reach the size of nation states and to amass the much more capital to burn than most nation states, nothing is going to change. Bottom up insistence that nations write laws to control the mega-capitalist powered, monopoly secured corporations go unheeded because no politicians or group of politicians is strong enough to write laws that the nations can enforce, hence mega corporations are virtually operating in a completely lawless environment { meaning mega corporations can do whatever they want }. There is no nation powerful enough to reel in many very large corporations; those certain few corporations own and enjoy the security from competition that monopolies guarantee in most of the extremely profitable markets in the world.
No one, including Russia and China can expect to survive trying to compete against the masses of capital, the earning capacities and the wealth building power of monopolies. Monopolies rule the nation state law makers , not the other way around. If I were you, I would add to your list of possible MH-17 bashers several global corporations; the one’s I have in mind, cannot be completely identified to a single nation in the world because they are so large they own the lawmakers, most of the assets and all of the earning power in many of the nations.
One the 9/11 clouds is the possible corporate involvement.

You might go along the pay-per-click route and buying traffic through Google Ad – Words and similar.
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solve a problem.

Well, if we are to dive into history, here are a few tidbits.
Anti-Jewish pogroms were a long-standing tradition in much of what now is Ukraine.
The first widespread case that came into stories and even literature (Shevchenko’s poem) was Haidamacks rebellion in 1648 (Google it, you can find a lot of info). Another well-known case was mass murder of Jews by Petlura’s regime in 1918-21. It was so atrocious, that when a Jew Shalom-Shmuel Schwarzbard murdered Petlura in Paris, the French court acquitted him in 1927, even though he confessed to the murder, citing as his reason that Petlura goons murdered his whole family and countless other Jews.
All this was well before Bolsheviks took over Ukraine (what was Ukraine back then; they added a lot to it, including Donbass, some Southern parts, and Western Ukraine, which was among their crimes, in my view).
BTW, In Volhynia during German occupation Ukrainian nationalists murdered Poles and mixed Polish-Ukrainian families, including women and children of all ages. Murdered brutally. You can see the pictures of the heinous crimes of Bandera followers all over the Internet. Here are a few examples (weak-hearted should not watch this)

Uhm…..ahm…..that

” In this case a hastily organized crew in a middle of heavy conventional war apparently could not.”

was related to the people who shot down THIS plane (Ukraine).

So, my point was/is:
A properly trained crew, in a peacetime, on US Aegis type cruiser, made a mistake.
Again, a hastily organized crew of a separatist movement, in a middle of heavy conventional war, made a mistake.

That’s for actual shooting down.

The circus from then on, including prevalent attitude here, is another matter.

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In order to see how it began read
Voline ( Vsevolod Mikhailovitsch Eichenbaum), ‘The unknown revolution (Kronstadt 1921 Ukraine 1918-21)’, New York 1955
Bolsjewist jews driving the Ukrainians from their farms.
For an eye witness account of these people trying to sell a few left possessions at railway stations, in order to postpone death by hunger
Morgan Philips Price (edited Tania Rose), ‘Dispatches from the Weimar Republic, Versailles and German Fascism’, London 1999
Price travelled by train through the Ukraine.

Thanks, I did not know that. Now it all makes perfect sense. Croatian Ustaša were devout allies of Hitler in WWII, just like Western Ukrainian nationalists. Ustaše militia is well known for its atrocities that made even German Nazis blush (https://dirkdeklein.net/2016/06/16/ustase-the-fascists-that-made-the-nazis-look-like-boyscouts/). Again, exactly like Ukrainian OUN and its armed wing Ukrainian Insurgent Army. No wonder this personage supports the descendants and admirers of those “Ukrainians” who committed Volhynia massacre and weren’t even smart enough to hide their crimes, so that today Internet is full of pictures of Polish women and children brutally murdered by those monsters. Even Wiki has a well-illustrated page about Volhynia massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia).
Ustaše are exactly like Bandera followers, the worst scum on the face of the Earth.

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This probably again not for peter, but for everybody including me.

I deeply resent that Nazis turned what could have been a decent country into a shithole.

Dont’t agree with “could have been a decent country ” Ukrain never been and never will be a decent one. Just because it’s made artificially from a piece of shit by Austrian and Germand hands.
But peter is a Croat AFAIK which also made by Germans from shitty serbs, so Uki’s Nazis are relaives to him.

” In this case a hastily organized crew in a middle of heavy conventional war apparently could not.”

There was no war whatsoever.
The USA crew deluded themselves into thinking there was one, by just looking at their screens.
They were so nervous that just at the 23rd or so effort they could feed the correct code into the missile for firing.
Why the USA ship was inside Iran’s territorial waters has never been explained.
The occasional firing with machine guns at tankers from Iranian rubber boats did no harm whatsoever, just a nuisance.

” Do you believe that Saddam’s soldiers were tossing babies out of incubators? ”

This propaganda tale has been debunked.
About the bullet holes in MH17, a bit more complicated.
A BUK does not have to hit, in the vicinity of the target it shoots a lot of projectiles, shrapnel, resembling bullets, on the target.
The interesting point here is that the BUK did what a fighter pilot would have done, kill the crew, in order to prevent that a mayday with specifics could be sent.

This website has some of the best comments on the Internet. I learn more from the comments than from the articles.

Sorry to disappoint again, but my mission is my day job. It is very interesting and satisfying. Very successful both scientifically and career-vise. But my job makes me very intolerant: I can’t stand BS from colleagues, grad students, and propaganda alike.
As to Ukraine, I was born and grew up there, and I speak better Ukrainian than most self-proclaimed “patriots”. I deeply resent that Nazis turned what could have been a decent country into a shithole.

Scientific mind for sure at works here. You know, reading carefully, checking/rechecking facts etc.

In that first link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

there is
7.1 2001 Siberia Airlines Flight 1812

That’s fine.
I recognize a guy on a mission.

Good luck.

If you are such a fan of Wiki, here is the Wiki page about the first civilian aircraft shot down by Ukraine, back in 2001, when Ukrainian oligarchs controlled the presidency, but before an oligarch actually became President:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

In that case Ukrainian authorities also denied their crime for years.
As the joke goes, Ukraine is the only country on Earth that shot down two civilian aircraft and not a single military one.

Yeah……

In meantime, for the minority here (mature and/or reading a bit of history, say, 5 %):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

especially:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

US Navy Cruiser, Aegis type, during peace, made a mistake.
In this case a hastily organized crew in a middle of heavy conventional war apparently could not.

That’s for the shooting.
Now, the “fallout” from the shooting is another matter altogether and something definitely highly politicized against Russia.

The only which interests me here is the inability of interested public to get the truth. Even in this era of instant communication and access to all sorts of data and computing power, when it really matters, public is helpless.

Addressing that could, maybe, be somewhat productive here.

And those who spout they know how about this: would you sign a death sentence against the crew that did it? You sign it with full confidence and they’ll get executed 2 hours later. If you can that’s another interesting thing around here.

Whoever that personage is, a lot of honest people read these comments. So, even if arguing with that person makes as much sense as having a heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost, it still makes sense to present arguments for the sake of other readers.

There are three possibilities:
1 rebels shot, our thought they shot, at an Ukrainian bomber, and hit a passenger plane
2 a Ukrainian bomber used the passenger plane as shield, in the expectation that the rebels would not fire
3 a western plane deliberately shot down the plane, possibly a stealth plane.

no, there is only one possibility, and that is that a Ukrainian jet shot down MH17, because no other scenario can account for the OBVIOUS bullet holes to the cockpit of the plane.

The western interest at the time was clear, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions, our export to Russia.
The 300 deaths changed that literally overnight.

good point,

only it’s worth pointing out that these zio-interests – to destroy Iraq and Libya and now Syria

are all evils that in no way benefit the actual people or institutions of the West, hardly.

Rather it’s a catastrophe for the people of the West, that these evils are being perpetrated in their name, by the zio-scum who hold our governments hostage.

So let’s just remember, when you say ‘the west’, what you’re referring to is the zio-west, which is the enemy of the actual West.

It doesn’t serve the West to be at odds with Russia. Just the opposite. It’s doesn’t serve the people of the West to be at war with Muslim nations. Just the opposite.

So the same forces in the world that have destroyed Iraq and Libya and Afghanistan and Donbas and tried to destroy Syria utterly before Putin heroically came to its aid, are the same forces trying to destroy the West as well, with mass-immigration and everything else ((they)) can think of to sow hatred and strife. ((Their)) calling cards.

Rutte told Asscher that the Russian had to be blamed.

no doubt

The asserted BUK is, they say, not to be seen,

a BUK missle leaves a distinctive trail that would have been visible for a long time on that clear day.

no such trail was witnessed or photographed. There was no BUK. MH17 was shot down with air to air 30 caliber machine gun fire from a Sukhoi Su-25, flown by the Ukrainian air force. They may have also used air to air anti-aircraft missiles. But there’s no doubt about the machine gun bullet holes, which are obvious.

Those who followed the murder of Bin Laden in Abottabad know that the USA used a helicopter there invisible for Pakistani military radar.

the account of the killing (and secret burial with zero proof) of Osama is patently absurd.

How in God’s name anyone would believe the zio-western press and government liars who lie to us every time they talk, about something like the killing of Osama, with not even a photo, other than the fake ones they got caught putting out, is beyond me.

Do you also believe that Putin killed that spy in England recently?

Do you believe that Assad used chemical weapons against his own people?

Do you believe that Saddam’s soldiers were tossing babies out of incubators?

do you believe that Saddam had WMD?

Do you believe that Osama did 9/11?

do you believe that ‘they hate us for our freedom’?

Sorry, but do you really can’t see who you are arguing with? This is payable or sincere, but certainly a player of anti-Russia team, whatever the truth is he’ll stick to that line.
He did not give a chance to doubt it.

There are three possibilities:
1 rebels shot, our thought they shot, at an Ukrainian bomber, and hit a passenger plane
2 a Ukrainian bomber used the passenger plane as shield, in the expectation that the rebels would not fire
3 a western plane deliberately shot down the plane, possibly a stealth plane.
That the plane was ordered to fly lower by Kiev air control might support the last two possibilities.

In any case, neither the rebels, nor the Russians had any interest in shooting down the plane.
The western interest at the time was clear, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions, our export to Russia.
The 300 deaths changed that literally overnight.

What never has been explained was the telephone call from prime minister Rutte to vice prime minister Asscher, at the time on holiday on vacation in the south of France.
Rutte phoned Asscher on his mobile, but asked him to call back on a land line ‘so that the Russians could not listen in’.
What at the afternoon of the crash was so secret that the Russians were not allowed to hear, I have just the suspicion that Rutte told Asscher that the Russian had to be blamed.

The Dutch investigation, with suspect Ukraine, drags on until now.
Here my suspicion is that that is the objective, continuing with vague accusations against Russia, but never something concrete.
Two unnamed experts just investigated Russian radar tapes, and came to a different conclusion than Russia.
The asserted BUK is, they say, not to be seen, alas, this means very little, a BUK goes so fast that ordinary radar does not pick it up, the antenna rotates too slowly, people who might know, say.
Radar of course also does not pick up a stealth plane.

Those who followed the murder of Bin Laden in Abottabad know that the USA used a helicopter there invisible for Pakistani military radar.
This became known beecause the helicopter crashed, and Pakistan allowed Chinese technicians to examine it.
I suspect this helicopter had active stealth, that is, it neutralises radar pulses that are received.

But monuments and remembrances all over the place.

BTW, theory 2 seems to be in a top secret Australian report on the disaster.

And I’d make damn sure I know who planned this provocation and who executed it in cold blood.

that’s how some of the widows of 9/11 felt, and when Dubya told us all we don’t need any stinking investigation, since the government had told us all who did it (Osama and his 19 henchmen), they just wouldn’t’ buy it.

and a sham ‘investigation’ was commenced, much of the motivation for which came from these heroic women.

but then when they went to the other families of the victims, and promised them billions of shekels to leave it alone, and move on, a critical mass of them were willing to get paid off for the murder of their loved ones.

Probably told something like ‘your loved one is dead, and demanding to know who did it, is going to anger a lot of powerful people. Do you really want to do that? when you can have so many millions of shekels instead?

so they bribe and bully at the same time

I recently watched a documentary on drug kingpin Escobar, and his mantra for anyone who got in his way, was that they had a choice; ‘Lead or silver, take your pick’. IOW a bullet to the gut, or a bag of cash. It worked well.

It is a simple relationship – the Jewish controlled MSM support the US Deep State position on everything and in return the US government supports Israel, no matter how illegal or inappropriate the Israeli behavior has become. And the citizens of the USA suffer greatly because of this.

Sorry to disappoint, I am not from Taiwan and not in my mid-twenties. I am a scientist, a biochemist. I take into account evidence and dismiss empty talk. Arguments like “we have evidence but we won’t show it to you” do not cut ice with me. If you put something like this in a paper, you’d be booted out of any scientific journal. For a good reason.

Laughable arguments.

I am sure your responses to the rest would be just as “convincing”

What took you so long?

Curious.
Is that you, personally, or it’s “Eastern” thing? You appear to be from Taiwan. Is that your cultural thing? You know…start a discussion and as soon as the other guy disagrees it’s “laughable” and condescending.
Or it’s age thing? Like, you mid twenties?
Badly hidden reverse racism, even?
C’mon…tell me. At least something to get from this…”discussion”.

Laughable arguments.
1. If anyone on the US/Ukraine side saw on their screens anything that could place the blame on Donbass freedom fighters and/or Russia, they would have presented their evidence straight away. The US and its vassals (e.g., UK) go into lengthy hysterics even when they have no evidence whatsoever (US elections in 2016, Skripal affair, etc).
2. The US was so eager to hide its surveillance capabilities that Kerry blabbered about it from the get go. Then presented zilch. Very believable.
3. If Malaysia was excluded to make the investigation impartial, than Ukraine, Netherlands, Australia, and UK should have been excluded, as well. The investigation should have been conducted by a party who has no stake in the matter. Instead, it is conducted by one of the prime suspects and countries who lost citizens in that crash. For four years! With non-disclosure agreement, to boot. Inspires lots of confidence.
I am sure your responses to the rest would be just as “convincing”.

Well, actually I believe that those points do not contradict my theory.
You:
1. Donbass freedom fighters were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated “guilty party” without any investigation
Me:
1. Donbass freedom fighters were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. They saw, on their monitors, what happened.
You:
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. If they could prove that Donbass freedom fighters were the perpetrators, these pictures would have been publicized by the US more than any Hollywood movie. My conclusion is that the perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
Me:
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. They could’ve pointed to actual surveillance capabilities of the US, either way.
You:
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the “investigators” meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it
Me:
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. The investigation was supposed to be as impartial as possible. Interested parties were kept out as much as possible.
Etc….

No need to keep see-sawing this. Being done plenty of times before and it is being done, as we speak, all over Internet.

You believe what you will; I do the same.

Moving on.

Interesting hypothesis, but there are several publicly known facts that contradict it:
1. Donbass freedom fighters were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated “guilty party” without any investigation.
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. If they could prove that Donbass freedom fighters were the perpetrators, these pictures would have been publicized by the US more than any Hollywood movie. My conclusion is that the perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the “investigators” meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it.
4. The UK, Australia, the Netherlands, and one of the suspects, Ukraine, signed a non-disclosure agreement. It makes no sense unless one or more of the signatories is guilty. Donbass freedom fighters are not a party to that agreement.
5. The “investigation” is going on for four years, longer than any investigation in the history of civil aviation. The experience shows that a lot less time is needed to uncover the truth. Thus, the length of this “investigation” shows that the real purpose is cover-up.
6. Ukraine never provided the records of pilots’ communications with air traffic controllers, or any other air traffic control records. Thus, it must have had something to hide.
7. Malaysian Airlines filed a flight plan at 35 000 feet. Ukrainian air traffic controllers told the plane to reduce altitude to 33 000 feet over Donbass. This was never explained.
8. The “investigators” keep pushing the theory that MH17 was shot down by a Buk missile. Many facts contradict this theory. One, the “investigators” produced just a few allegedly Buk fragments, whereas it is well known that Buk missile generates thousands of these fragments, many hundreds of which would be lodged in the plane debris and passenger bodies. Two, Buk missile leaves a smoke trail visible for many miles around, which remains there for more than an hour. Nobody in this densely populated area captured that on video, or even saw that. Three, many witnesses saw the second airplane in the vicinity. Actually, this info first appeared on BBC news. BBC then deleted this footage from its site, which strongly suggests that whoever controls BBC is complicit in the crime. This certainly excludes Donbass freedom fighters. Four, there are round holes in the pilots’ cabin, which are totally inconsistent with Buk missile elements, but remarkably consistent with the damage from 30 mm gun, a standard equipment of Soviet Su fighter jets that both Ukrainian and Russian air force has, and that Donbass freedom fighters most certainly don’t have.
Overall, my hypothesis is that somebody smarter than those pathetic puppets in Kiev planned this crime specifically to blame Donbass freedom fighters and, by extension, Russia, for it. The crime was executed by the Ukrainian army, well known for its ineptitude and general ham-handedness. The operation was botched, so that an extensive cover-up became necessary. Hence unprecedented four year “investigation” with direct participation of one of the most obvious suspects.

Well….you believe that none of people who had a loved one among those dead has been “willing to invest some effort and intelligence into it.”
It’s a lot of people……and I don’t buy it.
Feels a bit…condescending.

My point is that a serious investigation can’t be done without access to highly classified data.
No amount of work with public available data is good enough to produce a proper result.
Or at least a result which would prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, who was the perpetrator. I mean….the person/persons coming to that conclusion will, literally, spend their life/lives on that. Not something to be taken lightly.

I, personally, believe the plane was shot down by the guys in Donbass, by mistake. Happens in such wars. Don’t blame them. Just an error in judgement.
Maybe the blame should be placed on “civilian” part of that tragedy, from company management, through air controllers to the plane pilot/copilot. Still, just several levels of negligence.

The circus after the shooting is another matter. From media to top politicians. All sides.
Of course that the top players know exactly what happened. They just don’t want, for different reasons, to present that evidence to the public.
That is interesting.
Or simply proving the fact, again, that when real interests of the big guys are concerned, public outrcy means nothing.

Well, it isn’t easy, but I think it is doable, at least if you are willing to invest some effort and intelligence into it. First, as far as the execution of this crime goes, there are three bona fide suspects: Ukrainian government, Russian government, and Donbass freedom fighters. I’d analyze the timing of events and statements: when the plane was shot, when the actual info from the crash site appeared, when the statements were made. Any accusations that preceded evidence could have originated only from the perpetrators or those who directed the criminals. Second, there is an old Latin question that is as appropriate today as it was two thousand years ago: cui prodest? That applies to perpetrators and those who directed them. Third, who had the means to commit the crime? Shooting down an airplane at 33 000 feet requires technical means and skill. For example, I wouldn’t be able to do it without special training. Fourth, who conducted the investigation? Does it seem honest? If not, who resorted to shenanigans? Who was in the best position to produce red herrings? If the investigation appears to be a cover-up, who participated in it and who facilitated it? Who was excluded from it? If the investigation was a ruse, those excluded from it clearly aren’t guilty. And so forth. That would take time, but, as we all know, vengeance is a dish best served cold.

If I were related to any of the victims, I’d feel vindictive. I’d want to kill whoever is responsible, not whoever the liars found it expedient to blame.
And I’d make damn sure I know who planned this provocation and who executed it in cold blood.

Good to see that before going onto suicide murder rampage you are willing to do some forethought and preparation.
So…..how exactly would you “make damn sure I know”?
You must be well connected.

If I were to do the same I wouldn’t know how to do it.
I mean, save hacking into some highly classified data banks of major world powers I really wouldn’t have an idea how to proceed. And I just can’t hack there…..just thinking how much hard work would even trying to develop a proper “zero day exploit” require….just no way.

Second best would be kidnapping and questioning a person who knows all that. Unfortunately that’s somebody rather high up, with decent protection. I don’t think I could pull that of even in my best days. It’s simply out of question now.

So…how would you do it?

You are even more cynical than I am. I have no doubt that the politicians, Dutch, US, Australian, Ukrainian, and all others, are totally amoral and unscrupulous. Naturally, they are all venal. As the US saying goes, “honest politician is the one who, once bought, stays bought”.
But I thought that a person who lost someone in that crash would like to know the truth, rather than “official” US BS. It would be sad to think that none of almost 300 people on board had anyone who cared about them more than about money. If I were related to any of the victims, I’d feel vindictive. I’d want to kill whoever is responsible, not whoever the liars found it expedient to blame. And I’d make damn sure I know who planned this provocation and who executed it in cold blood.

Don’t they want to know who killed them?

no, not if you pay them enough money

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/mh17-compensation-could-hit-1nbspbillion-in-latest-disaster-for-malaysia-airlines/news-story/6b553d929d3de6fba845dfd0ae346562

(just like with 9/11)

http://www.latimes.com/la-110804compensation_lat-story.html

the wreckage of MH17 was obviously riddled with machine gun fire

only Ukraine could have done that

the way the zio-west immediately blamed Putin proved it was all a lie

it was the zio-west that foisted the political strife in Ukraine

it was the zio-west that allowed the Ukraine to have veto power over the “investigation” into the shooting down of MH17

the whole thing is a devil’s farce

just like all the other atrocities and war crimes committed in this century by the zio-fiend

Yes. I can understand the Dutch government: they serve the US overlords first and foremost. They don’t give a hoot about the lives of ordinary Dutch people. What I do not understand is the behavior of the people who lost loved ones in MH17 crash. Don’t they want to know who killed them? Don’t they object to being grist for the mill of amoral and cynical politicians?

See my comment nr 230: There is not one investigation. The Dutch manipulated this into two separate investigations. There was a technical UN mandated transparent Dutch Safety Board investigation. The Dutch organized a second criminal investigation together with Australia, Belgium and the Ukraine and instigated A Joint Investigation Team (JIT).

https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2017/07/05/jit-countries-choose-the-netherlands-for-mh17-crash-prosecution

The manipulation and exploitation of the MH17 incident by the Dutch seems to rival that of Skripal incident by the UK.

https://www.government.nl/search?keyword=mh17

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lösen mein Problem. Vielleicht das ist Sie! Ein Blick vorr schauen Sie.

In my blog ‘contraviews’ http://www.contraviewing.blogspot.com post 148 you will find a recording of the conversation (mentioned in this article) between the Estonian Foreign Affairs Minister Urmas Paet and EU Foreign Policy chief Catherine Ashton. Go to the year 2014 in the margin and scroll down to post 148. One may find more interesting articles on MH17.

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Thinking people smelled a rat in the case of MH17 straight off. No sensible person can fail to smell it now. Just a few considerations:
1. Donbass freedom fighters (and, by extension, Russia) were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated “guilty party” without any investigation.
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. The only logical conclusion is that the perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the “investigators” meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it.
4. The UK, Australia, the Netherlands, and one of the suspects, Ukraine, signed a non-disclosure agreement. It makes no sense unless one or more of the signatories is guilty.
5. The “investigation” is going on for four years, longer than any investigation in the history of civil aviation. The experience shows that a lot less time is needed to uncover the truth. Thus, the length of this “investigation” shows that the real purpose is cover-up.
6. Ukraine never provided the records of pilots’ communications with air traffic controllers, or any other air traffic control records. Thus, it must have had something to hide.
One can continue in this vein, but what’s the point? Suffice it to say that all international airlines drew their conclusions: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like they avoid Iranian and North Korean airspace. Sapienti sat.

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Actually this “Who shot down MH17?” is the wrong question.

The question is “Who is liable?”.

In which connection, as may already have been noted:

Malaysia Airlines filed a flight plan requesting 35,000 feet through airspace but was told [by Ukrainian air traffic control] to fly at 33,000

Yes, we did discuss that back in 2014, along with many other debates on Ukrainian social achievement in the Hapsburg and Russian Empires. I never mentioned back then that part of my family came from Galicia (Ottynia), so the subject has a degree of personal interest to me.

Anyone can carry out a new magic trick efficiently.

About him:

Marked by many orders and sent to the General Staff in Vienna. As Field Marshal of the Austrian Army was known as one of the best Austrian strategists. He was a frequent visitor to the Imperial House. In Vienna, was from 1884 to 1890. As a general, from 1872, was a member of the House of lords (Izby Panow) in Vienna. He was tall and imposing. Marshall was not married, frequently visited Lemkivshchyna (Krynica village). As a pensioner living in Krakow, Wawel Castle. He died at 54 years because of pneumonia. He was buried in Krakow on Rakowicki Cemetery. On his grave monument with an iron cross, the image of Our Lady and the inscription in German: “Gewidmet von ihrer treuen Freundin”. Source: Krakow newspaper news (weekly) ch.1-2, 1943 Assigned rank: Major General – 01.05.1887 Field Marshal Lieutenant – 01.05.1891

His brother and uncle were heads of the Greek Catholic Church.

That would make a certain amount of sense. But detractors claim that these migrants are returning for only a week or two every few years to normalize their citizenship status and then taking off again to the countries they truly reside in

I don’t know how this is statistically across the country. I have two relatives from Ukraine who are migrants. One lived and worked in Germany for 6 months (before visa-free travel!) in 2015. He is intelligent and skilled (finished a medical institute but ran his own small construction company in provincial central Ukraine because medicine doesn’t pay) so worked as a skilled worker in Germany, not like someone just hauling stuff. He made enough to buy a 4 year old VW polo, and have a nest egg during the economic crisis, which has now passed in his region. He wants to build a new roof on his house and do some other upgrades so he may return for another 6 months, though his wife isn’t happy about it. Second person went to Poland after his baby was born to build up some savings. In 6 months one can make as much in Poland as one makes in 2 years in Ukraine. These are anecdotes but I suspect they are not exceptional cases. The West is a good place to make money but family, friends, are home, and the money goes much further at home too. And it takes less than a day to come back to Ukraine from Poland. Warsaw to Vynnytsia in central Ukraine is an 11 hour drive, for example.

I know illegals in the USA. Those guys stay for years and years, because it’s their only chance. They often go back eventually, with a lot of savings, but the lengthy absence is difficult; most aren’t faithful to their spouses while here, their kids forget them, divorce is typical.

Kiev also seems to be growing in part of sustained internal migration. This must be causing a hollowing out of lots of mid-sized cities and small towns.

Probably. However the mid-sized cities like Zhytomir are also seeing new factories being built which mitigates this.

OT: Did we once discuss Galician generals in the Austrian military? I stumbled across one of my great-great-great grandparent’s first cousins during geneological research: Ludwig-Alexander Sembratowitsch (we knew about the Metropolitan of the Greek Catholic Church in the family, but not about this guy). He was the son of a Greek Catholic priest of petty noble origins.

Actually this “Who shot down MH17?” is the wrong question.

The question is “Who is liable?”.

Shooting down aircraft above a war zone is SOP. If a civilian air liner is guided and controlled over such war area where 3 days earlier an AN-24 has been downed from 6500m one really ought to question the competence and liability of the ATC involved. That ATC authority UkSATSE as a joint civil-military ATC was fully informed about the situation and still continued to guide some 100 civil air liners ad day for three days over that war zone.

Shooting down a civil air liner over a war zone is tragic but not necessarily always a crime. There was no motive for the East Ukrainians, but as shown by the relentless exploitation by the Kiev puppet regime this Kiev regime most definitely had a motive.

Any liability investigation with the Ukrainian secret service as an investigator like in the Dutch/Australian/Ukraine Joint investigation Team simply can’t be trusted to even look for the truth. The JIT was set up with the intention of evading the transparency requirements associated with the UN mandated investigation.

Would that be the phenomenon by which the Ukrainian Statistical Service claims that the country receives about 10000 more migrants per year than it loses? That would make a certain amount of sense. But detractors claim that these migrants are returning for only a week or two every few years to normalize their citizenship status and then taking off again to the countries they truly reside in. I have seen that trend in certain other post-Soviet Republics, in particular Georgia where the last census noted a big difference between registered citizens and those who were actively living on national territory at the time of the count.

I do not trust Ukrainian statistics as much as other countries in the region because no census has been carried out since 2001, and the government seems to put a new one off whenever the demand for it arises. Regular censuses are needed to calibrate population estimates, and I imagine the events of the past four years caused an even greater drift on the old calculations. I would not be shocked to find out that the country has one to two million people less than officially claimed, especially when you factor in the disruptions in Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts.

Kiev also seems to be growing in part of sustained internal migration. This must be causing a hollowing out of lots of mid-sized cities and small towns. A country where the capital achieves ever-growing and undue demographic weight is generally bad for births (I include Moscow as an example of this, but also London, Tokyo, and even Riga).

I am genuinely grateful to the owner of this website who
has shared this enormous paragraph at at this place.

http://uksatse.ua/index.php?s=94a63ae71adf1e881cd1901e2276a734&act=Part&CODE=247&id=272&lang=en

News
4th June 2014
UkSATSE ensures safety in Ukrainian sky under any conditions
Ukrainian State Air Traffic Services Enterprise (UkSATSE) informs that the enterprise keeps on providing the whole range of air navigation services. It ensures flight safety in the airspace of Ukraine, airdromes of Ukraine and in the international airspace over the high seas at the relevant level. Moreover, UkSATSE ensures trouble-free operation of branches of Joint Civil-Military System of Air Traffic Management of Ukraine irrespective of foreign interference in work of air traffic services bodies in Crimea and at the East of Ukraine.

The lengths Dutch Prime Minister publicly went (serving quote ‘geopolitical interests’) to get the EU-Ukraine association agreement ratified the clear rejection by advisory referendum notwithstanding, ought to make any well informed reader suspicious of how far Rutte went out of public sight to serve those same ‘geopolitical interests’ by manipulating both the investigation and public opinion in relation to MH17.

Rutte recently demonstrated his fealty to those ‘geopolitical interests’ again. When asked if new evidence was presented in the Skripal case to justify the Netherlands support for the UK, Rutte answered that ‘such evidence wasn’t necessary because May had stated that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible’.

The Dutch Government got a UN mandate to perform the investigation and as such that part of the investigation had to be transparent.

Clearly to serve those ‘geopolitical interests’ the Dutch separated the technical investigation from the legal liability investigation. The technical investigation was performed under the UN mandate and the second legal liability investigation was organized separate from any UN mandate.

The Dutch, Australian, Belgium government colluded with the Ukrainians to organize a ‘Joint Investigation Team’ which under the cover of performing a legal investigation refuses any transparency and at regular intervals hints that indictments are close but not there yet.

Also the Dutch Transport Safety Board technical investigation has concluded that the UkSATSE should have closed the Air Control area above Eastern Ukraine, but the Dutch government has thus far never taken any action to hold the Ukrainians responsible for that failure even when 3 days before MNH17 a AN-24 was downed from 6500m and UkSATSE (joint civil-military ATC) continued to control some 100 civil air liners a day over that area. The Dutch simply accepted that the Ukraine lost all relevant radar data.

What’s up colleagues, pleasant article and nice arguments commented at this place, I
am truly ebjoying by these.

I wasn’t clear perhaps. Yes, there is depopulation occurring, but it is not as large as suggested by the large number of migrants to Poland or other places, because most of these come back to Ukraine after making some money. Also, most make multiple trips, so the number of people coming to Poland every year is not new Ukrainians but often the same people coming back for another stint there.

I not so sure about that. A survey is a survey. This is a survey about *labor migrants*, not all types of migrants, for example not those who settle and receive citizenship. There is ukrainian emigration towards Russia too, or towards other countries. I’m aware that many eastern europeans go to the West not only to work, but also to settle there, for example many poles settled in Britain and many bulgarians in the US.

Since 1990 for example ukrainians living in the US have increased by 200k, ukrainians living in Canada by 250k

From the looks of it, lots of people moved out of Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_diaspora#After_1991

Then according to the IMF the impact of emigration has been negative for the sender countries, whether they are temporary or not.

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/Staff-Discussion-Notes/Issues/2016/12/31/Emigration-and-Its-Economic-Impact-on-Eastern-Europe-42896

Whatever the real situation with ukrainian emigration is, Ukrainian population has been falling, so yes, depopulation is occuring in Ukraine.

For 2017, russian TFR was 1,66 and Ukrainian TFR was 1,375. A bit less optimistic than your numbers. Another problem is that emigration out of Ukraine has been very large, with no immigration to compensate.

Most emigration is temporary.

https://theubj.com/news/view/ubjam-wednesday-march-21

“Poland is the destination of choice for 62% of Ukrainian labor migrants, according to a survey by the All-Ukrainian Association of International Employment Companies. Poland is favored because it is nearby, the salaries are high and the language barrier is low. The average stay is short – from one to six months. Three quarters of respondents had visited Poland more than once. Only 11% said they want to permanently settle in Poland.”

It’s a way of making good money, sending it back, and coming home soon. It’s not depopulation.

I haven’t yet had time to read it.

I know.

Teen snarks and reading such documents don’t go together. Thinking about that even more so.
Priorities. Understandable.

Nationalists’ first and foremost enemies are anti-nationalist compatriots, because they are traitors

Didn’t that pretty boy who ran the Romanian Iron Guard have a great quote about that?

That guy was dreamy. No homo.

reiner isn’t an anti semite.

That, probably. Whatever that means.

Too much blood in the head? It’s a natural consequence of hanging upside down all the year. Probably explains the difficulty in getting the logic of nationalism.

I haven’t yet had time to read it.

Have a nice Sunday morning!

Or just too much blood in your head?

That, probably. Whatever that means.

BTW, have you, so keen apparently on all this, read that document?
Any (independent) thoughts?
Or just “Dem Jews” thing? Easier, I concur.

Do you not have nationalists in Australia? Or just too much blood in your head?

Nationalists’ first and foremost enemies are anti-nationalist compatriots, because they are traitors. Traditional national enemies come after that. (Though anti-nationalist compatriots are easier to redeem, only have to renounce their views.)