“Without those “wild and barbaric Scots-Irish”, the Revolutionary War would have been lost.”

And every other war we won. And about half our Presidents would never have been born. When was the last war we won??? WW2 I believe.

I noticed that too. William of Orange conquered England in 1688 and the people he brought with him would have been from the Netherlands and present day Germany and Belgium, not France.

But the history of the Venables Fred mentioned would really not have been written down in pre 1066 France and Normandy. Only 10,000 came with William of Normandy and 5,000 of that group weren’t Normans actually revanchist Bretons who fled England 500 years earlier when the Saxons conquered it.

It’s an interesting story I enjoyed it.

Canada and the northern now US colonies were pretty much disease and filth free. The water unlike in Europe where it had been contaminated by animal and human waste for centuries was clean and drinkable. Food was abundant. The New Englanders could send the kids out to the lobster pots and they would come home with a 6 ft lobster. There were of course deer in abundance in some areas. The Spanish deposited some pigs in Florida in the early 1500s and within a century they were all over.

Few people and no old outhouses meant colonial America was clean which meant little disease. New England Mothers often had 10 or more children who all lived and didn’t kill the Moms either. All that abundant protein meant a generous supply of breast milk.

The colonials in the country often built their homes instead of moving into a 200 year old house full of TB, fleas, bedbugs, lice etc. The rural living helped a lot too as people were not crowded into towns where disease could spread.

Are you saying it in some meaningful regard?

And you buggered off to Mexico and abandoned your roots. Its a damn shame Fred.

“So you’re saying HBD analysis doesn’t have predictive power?”

In what regard?

After this, I am almost tempted to google fred.

but can’t seem to put a Virginian in the Governor’s Mansion to save their ass.

Look away, look away, and avert your eyes from this nonsense.

The slave holding aristocracy gave us the Civil War and the War Between the States.

That said, I support the celebration of every Confederate holiday, including Robert E. Lee’s horse’s birthday. As part of said celebrations, I think that we need to exhume the body of one fire-eater each and every holiday and hang the SOB and then rebury him. (With full and proper respect of course.)

The Southern secessionist states simply demanded their right to withdraw from the Union, nothing more. Lincoln maneuvered them in a most dishonorable way into firing on Ft. Sumpter, but remember, federal Ft. Sumpter was situated in a southern harbor and rightfully belonged to the State of South Carolina. Until the Ghettysberg campaign the Confederacy never attempted to invade Union territory. (forays into Maryland are arguable as Lincoln took over the Maryland Government for fear that they would in fact secede) The South fought an almost purely defensive war, was invaded and was subject to a naval blockade.

Before the Civil War, the United States was a republic composed of free states. The federal system now operates rather like the mafia, once in, you can never leave.

So you’re saying HBD analysis doesn’t have predictive power?

You’re taking things too personally, Fred:

Most readers will not care where I was born, and a fair few clearly wish that I hadn’t been. Well, this isn’t your day.

The main way you’d know how your readers feel is from reading comments below your articles. A few week’s back, when you posted your defense of illegal breaking and entering by 25-40 million Mexicans and of all things Mexican (it seemed), you got a lot of comments that were not in agreement with you, and rightfully so. In the PeakStupidity blog, here, well before your column, I gave my take on the matter – feel free to correct me, especially if you think that the US dollar will be King through the rest of your lifetime.

That’s one thing, but it does not mean I don’t enjoy the rest of your writing, or wish you hadn’t been born. Don’t be ridiculous. With that said, I’ll enjoy this article – I normally read all comments, and I am familiar with Bluefield VA/WVa, and all of the great land, but I won’t get into all the details that are being argued about – I don’t think any of this is as important as the ruination of our country (lots of ways, but the Mex. invasion sure ain’t gonna help, Fred.)

I remember reading an interview with Terry Venables – I can’t find it online – where he described how he emphasised his cockney accent when talking to posh people, and spoke posher when talking to working class people. I guess this gave him some advantage – appearing earthy and authentic to the upper orders, and authoritative to the lower orders.

Looks like the Venables are perennial class chameleons.

Without those “wild and barbaric Scots-Irish”, the Revolutionary War would have been lost.

My ancestors also came from Tidewater Va. Googling our names I see that my people mixed it up with your people. Would not be surprised if we had a common ancestor around 1700. We should do lunch sometime.

“Reality is extreme. Unfortunately, there’s this little thing about science in that it actually has predictive potential and can be used effectively as a tool.”

Science that has become politicized. You ought to follow Vox Day’s scientody and scientistry argument. The same “evidence” used 100 years ago is now dressed up to serve the masters of HBD. Again, few white people care about this pie in the sky, cultist philosophy.

But you just proved my point…the average white American has not heard of, nor is concerned about, HBD, in part because of its extremist nature. They have other pressing matters to attend to.

Reality is extreme. Unfortunately, there’s this little thing about science in that it actually has predictive potential and can be used effectively as a tool.

There’s a reason why educated leftists radicalize rather than try to deny the veracity of its claims.

You should definitely write more. You have a poetry to your prose.

“Ethnic Czechs from the Sudetenland, my mother’s people came to America around 1890. Definitely working class, but not particularly religious and somewhat prone to alcoholism.”

And, according to nativists at that time, they were incapable of becoming an American. So, how were nativists wrong?

“I’ve seen it common even among the leftist educated circles I am in. It mostly just provokes even more radical leftism, but the knowledge is indeed getting more common.”

It is becoming known to leftist educated circles because of Alt Right promotion of HBD, which in turn provokes both the Coalition of the Fringes.

“The “average white American” mostly cares about McDonalds, so that is a meaningless comparison.”

How elitist of you to say. But you just proved my point…the average white American has not heard of, nor is concerned about, HBD, in part because of its extremist nature. They have other pressing matters to attend to.

Thank you very much for sharing that. There are some definite similarities there with my own family history.

Ethnic Czechs from the Sudetenland, my mother’s people came to America around 1890. Definitely working class, but not particularly religious and somewhat prone to alcoholism. They nevertheless caught the rising tide of the American century and managed to do alright for themselves. My great-grandfather owned his own business which my grandfather inherited and later sold. Among my parents’ generation, some did alright and some not. Several of my aunts and uncles did relatively well (e.g. they at least managed to maintain middle class status); unfortunately my own parents were among the ones who made appallingly bad decisions and sent the family downhill to its ruin.

I have managed to hang on this long due to sheer dint of will, uncommon talents, my rediscovery of religion, my capacity for sacrifice, and constant self-education and self-red-pilling. However, I am barely middle class and scarcely have an outlet for my finer capabilities. I definitely have not achieved what I am capable of.

To live out the sickness of the times in one’s own being is a tragic fate indeed. The general downward trend, as it is so often discussed, is an aggregate of sociometric data that can be observed and weighed in the abstract by people in positions of comfort, but for me it is a daily struggle. I am one of the concrete individuals in whom the general trend is manifested. Every day I must fight the battle for survival (and heroic have been my efforts) but behind it all I know this doom has been laid upon me. I shall never enter the promised land.

I am consoled by the fact that before the face of God I shall be absolved for some of my failures to thrive. God will judge me fairly, taking my circumstances and opportunities into account. In the life to come, my resurrected body will be restored to that place of dignity of which my soul is worthy. In the meantime, however, in this world, there are only facts; only success and failure. There is no such thing natural indemnification for others’ lack of chivalry. It is quite the opposite in fact; the sons pay a heavy price for the sins of their fathers. The world does not care why you’re weak—that your family betrayed you, that your culture didn’t nourish you, that you are the uncared for, the unloved, the unwanted—only that you’re weak. The jackals stalk the wounded lion, and the flies bite at his eyes. These facts are what make family, culture, and the care of one’s own into the vitally important facts that they are. To reject them is to consign the future to the flames. Without them there is nothing between you and the abyss.

Someone pointed out that I wrote William of Orange when I meant the William of 1066. Oops. I am reading Marlborough: His life and Times as well as a book on William and Mary and apparently suffered brainlock. Apologies. Apologies.

Yes, one looks like an ancestor, but how many genes can have been transmitted from someone who was one’s sixty-fourth part ancestor. Not many, but if the family had been living in the same area for a long time and mating with others from the same area, there must have been quite an overlappage of genes.

Actor Richard Burton came from South Wales. Many years ago I found myself at a bus station cafe in the early hours of the morning in Swansea, and was surprised to see that nearly all the bus drivers looked like Richard Burton or Anthony Hopkins.

Thank you, iffen. It’s always striking how little many Americans know about their own country’s history. Not to know that the South was handicapped by disease is woeful ignorance. The trouble is that the ones with most need to read your link probably won’t.

Mercenaries have a bad press these days, not so much in those days.

Warrior was an honored profession then.

I think there was enough killing and dead on both sides to satisfy everyone for a while.

The war didn’t start because of an abolitionist drive

Yes and no.

Abolition was coming at some point in the near future. More than that, the political power of the South could only decrease. Even more importantly, the cotton/new slave states bubble was going to pop, because, as you pointed out, there was not going to be any new slave states.

The slave aristocracy thought they might win, otherwise the end was in sight. It was the logical decision for them if all the killing didn’t put you off.

So Fred´s family became a victim of the re-entry of the jews to Britain with Cromwell and then Charles II. Perhaps this explains why it was Charleston and Newport that became the major (jewish) slave-trading centers in the US rather than Virginia? Or Fred is nostalgic for the period when the Brits still had their independence from the corruption of the “city of london” and produced people like Newton and Shakespeare?

As far as I am aware, the south wanted the war and fired the first shots at Fort Sumter. The war didn’t start because of an abolitionist drive but because the south could not abide the prospect of slavery being banned in new entrants to the union. The southern planter class could have shown some wisdom and let well enough alone but elected for secession, war and extinction instead.

“Lincoln is honored as one of our greatest Presidents”

Oh! Using Foreign mercenaries to subdue the people was condemned when George III did it.

I wonder why Lincoln gets a free pass.

Lincoln cause the deaths of around 660,000 servicemen in this war. Maybe 800,000 died, though

There can be no exact count of the women and children of the South who were burned out of homes & their food destroyed by Sherman, Sheridan & Custer in the Shenandoah Valley , Georgia and elsewhere.

..and he recruited about half of those from Europe.?

Yes, and that doesn’t even count the effective use of some 200,000 freed slaves. Lincoln is honored as one of our greatest Presidents, and while most think that it is because he deserves credit for saving the Union and freeing the slaves, a close reading will show that his genius was indispensable to the actual strategy and pursuit of the war effort.

Actually, Lincoln raised around 2 million men…..and he recruited about half of those from Europe. His recruiting agents promised land to Germans, Irish, Italians, French if they survived the war. A lot didn’t, of course. So, a good many non-Americans , by preponderance of numbers allied to the greater population and industrial might of the North, defeated the South.
Using these foreign mercenaries ( cf. the “Hessians” of the Revolution era) made it easier for Lincoln to damp down the home-grown opposition to his war. That and locking up journalists and thousands of Northerners who opposed it.

Fine forebears. It is a pity they were parties to insurrection against the first mass democracy on Earth, in favour of a form of human bondage that no decent Christian could reasonably suppprt.

“(…) My New England friends … ”

That’s the problem: your having New England friends.

(Just kidding).

Scots/Scots-Irish of the Tidewater area–which operated the coastal area down to Charleston, South Carolina (and Barbados).

No. Coastal Carolina was English, no Scotch-Irish, they would have been more attuned to the Cavaliers.

the Scots-Irish simply liked fighting.

Yes. My thought was that if you had Scotch-Irish on both sides, the officer corps could have carried the day.

Fred writes well on this particular subject matter. In a previous life I travelled extensively in the Carolinas and Virginia whilst engaged in B to B merchantile commerce and also attended international trade shows. You learn a lot about peoples in that environment.

My own origins are a mixture of the gentile English tobacco growers, disorderly Scots-Irish and industrious Germans. Unfortunately (or fortunately) my personality and MO were overly influenced by the Scots-Irish. (non-Hillbilly however– Robeson County, NC settlers– some rough ass people)

I found SE Virginia and NE North Carolina Tidewater folk to be unreasonably prissy and formal beyond their own commercial importance to me or my competitors. (e.g. insist on a formal appointment for a sales call in some dried up pissant town like Emporia, VA or Henderson, NC that may, with any luck, have resulted in $1000.00 worth of gross commissionable business twice a year) In short, their pain exceeded their pleasure in terms of both human interaction enjoyment and income to me. Many colleagues in allied industries and even some of my competitors concurred with me.

Only Charlotte, NC approached the level of futility experienced in the Tidewater area, but that’s another story with other pathologies.

I soon learned to only deal with the aforementioned at trade shows on my terms in my exhibition booths and showrooms.

It was far more lucrative and enjoyable to spend my sales call resources elsewhere.

iffen, I would think quite a few. Scots-Irish fought on both sides, to be sure, but I would think that a large portion of the Northern officer corps were of strictly English (non-Saxon) stock. Union General Hooker’s family had been in New England since the 1600s and were 100 percent English, which means, given immigration patterns, were likely of East Anglia/Mercia stock, vs. Wessex. However, his replacement at Gettysburg (Union Gen. Meade’s family does appear to have been Saxon, from Somerset). Sedgewick’s family was from Connecticut (from Cumbria, England originally). Howard’s family were Anglo-Norman, etc etc.

I think what’s clear is (since surname’s are only a small part of your genetic makup), if your family was in New England, they most likely were from England and most likely part of the Puritan, Quaker culture, versus the Anglican Saxons and Scots/Scots-Irish of the Tidewater area–which operated the coastal area down to Charleston, South Carolina (and Barbados). To be certain, there were Scots-Presbyterians on both sides (I would imagine more the Pennsylvania area, and what would become West Virginia).

As Kevin McDonald notes, the Puritan Anglos, unlike their Saxon and Celtic cousins, were MUCH MORE willing to go fight and die for another tribe, than the later–out of a sense of (social) justice. Those Puritans, like many English, may have been somewhat mixed with Norman and Saxon (if not Welsh and Scottish blood), but culturally, they were egalitarians. The cavaliers were the fox-hunting English (largely Saxon) who GZF about fairness or equality, and wanted to preserve a quasi-feudal system.

It would seem, as the Jackson, Carter and Knox families showed in our history, the Scots-Irish simply liked fighting.

Scotch-Irish from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and Border States defeated the Scotch-Irish from the South and Border States. I wonder what percentage of the Union Officers were from Puritan stock.

My most famous ancestor who lived in the tidewater was so aristocratic that he picked the wrong side of the American revolution and got his ass kicked out of here. I’m prouder of the one who was charged with treason for his failure to pay taxes to the crown on the rum he was smuggling.

The Tidewater whites were largely of Saxon stock, while the Northeastern Whites were primarily Anglo, from Mercia/East Anglia and some from Northumbria (mixed with Picts and Scots). Despite being a Martial culture, the Saxons lost the wars in England and likewise, here in the states, even with the help of the Celts (primarily Scots-Irish, which means, a mix of Nordic/Viking for good measure).

America may have been envisioned by the Anglo-Saxons, but it was enforced and fought for by my ancestors, the Scots-Irish.

The accounts of the era didn’t seem to make it particularly disease ridden.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/28/6/1734.full

“the clan came to England with William of Orange”

In 1688?

More from Vox Populi: “See, that’s precisely the problem, Fred. They’re not your children’s people. You’re the end of the line. Whatever comes after is not that pure Cavalier stock of the Virginia Tidewater of which you are so proud.

Indeed, if my experience is any guide, people will very likely tell your grandchildren that they have no connection whatsoever to the Cavaliers and they are lying if they claim they do.”

Vox Populi’s got your number this week Fred: “All that illustrious lineage, and now Fred is reduced to denying human biodiversity in defense of the members of La Raza Cosmica with whom he cohabitates. It rather reminds me of the women who are ferociously proud of their blue eyes and blonde hair raising their brown-eyed, black-haired children. They have proven themselves wholly unworthy of their heritage by virtue of failing to pass it on.”

I’ve seen it common even among the leftist educated circles I am in. It mostly just provokes even more radical leftism, but the knowledge is indeed getting more common.

The “average white American” mostly cares about McDonalds, so that is a meaningless comparison.

Virginia is home to more U.S. Presidents than any other state and Tom Wolfe seems pretty prominent to me.

I’ll be vague, but give my own family story. I think it would be interesting in that it illustrates exactly what happened-not to overachievers in 1790, but to folks over the last 100 years.

Immigrants to America around 1900. Probably not peasants, but certainly lower middle class or upper working class. Essentially first generation of Americans were blue collar folks who were religious and worked hard. WWII generation (though missed WWII for health related reasons). Not perfect, not perfectly happy. But the family stuck together (i.e. no divorce, siblings lived near each other, and were close when they died in their 80′s, in the ethnic neighborhood they married in in their 20′s, etc) , the kids went to college (first generation to do so), one could say the kids achieved what they were capable of.

But those kids were the baby boomers or so. Matured in the 50′s young adults in the 60′s, young middle age in the 70′s. Thus, they weren’t destroyed by the 60′s; they were the people for whom we read ‘the 60′s reached middle America in the 70′s.’

Thus they did two things. Got into drugs to varying degrees (not enough to destroy them, but enough to set them back), and failed to teach their own children (religion, morals, values).

By and large their own children (i.e. the first generation’s grandchildren) had varying degrees of success. Some college, some not. Several divorces. Some drugs, some not. Folks have started falling through the cracks. People are not ‘achieving what they were capable of.’ Society was failing them, and you could say some chose well, some poorly-and they paid for their choices.

Next generation (the great grandchildren). No marriages. Several kids, of several parents. No college-even difficulty in finishing high school. They aren’t ‘achieving what they are capable of.’ They aren’t even achieving minimal family formation. They are sinking back into the morass of the lower class or peasantry. They are reasonably bright (Their parents and grandparents include professionals, doctors, and so on). They are simply products of their environment.

So my family is a bell curve, straddling the 20th century.
I’m guessing there aren’t a lot of families like Fred’s (Tidewater aristocracy). But, given immigration in 1880-1920, there are a whole lot of families like mine. You can see the century-long promise of America opening and closing through the performance of the people, over 4 generations of the 20th century.

joeyjoejoe

Are whites of the tidewater (Virginia and Carolinas) as smart as whites in Mass and CT? It doesn’t seem so based on the number of eminent people in the last 100 years. Why tidewater whites get dumber?

“(1) HBD (by any other name) is making a raging comeback and will serve as the belief-rationalization for a coming wave of social fragmenting that should make today’s headlines look like an Antebellum tea party.”

A raging comeback among the Alt Right crowd, to be certain. But not your average white American, who think that HBD is shorthand for Happy Birthday.

Just can’t resist turning something beautiful into something ugly!

Is this a subtle troll-job on HBD? Or did Fred just upend 3/4rs of his recent rants?

Two things about which I’m fairly confident:
(1) HBD (by any other name) is making a raging comeback and will serve as the belief-rationalization for a coming wave of social fragmenting that should make today’s headlines look like an Antebellum tea party.
(2) “Fake” is the meme that will label the slide down the Slope of Hope ahead. We’ll see “fake” applied to everything people recently embraced with both arms (and practically both legs.)
Fake News
Fake Americans
Fake Political Reps
Fake Foods
Fake Medicines
Fake Economists
Fake Bankers
Fake Bonds (and other IOU’s)*
Fake Stock Markets
Fake Judges
Fake Pope
Fake (fill in the blank)

[* The Obama Administration's expropriation of GM bondholders in favor of the unions was radically one-upped by Schumer, Warren, Blumenthal and Feinstein in ripping off Puerto Rican muni bondholders to the tune of $70 billion, once again proving that the sanctity of contracts is up for sale in Washington DC. https://www.thecaribbeanradio.com/commentary-the-real-reason-new-york-us-attorney-preet-bharara-was-asked-to-resign/ ]

Most enjoyable. Have you the wrong William though? Would it not be William (of Normandy) the Conqueror rather than William of Orange. The former confers a distinct social éclat, the latter a hint of the parvenu. Not that we here in England are remotely snobbish.

Fred is probably lying in this post. Nice catch.

Wat? It’s just what they’re like.
Percy Reed is an ancient hero on the English side to this day. Betrayed by lesser men, in a world where lunatic violence was a chivalric virtue, and the true mark of a man.

Not to question your Tidewater pride, but wouldn’t Bluefield General Hospital have been in Mercer County, WV?

Here you go Fred. A proper Reed, captured in his natural environment. Not long after America was invented, either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Parcy_Reed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JtBC4hvFQ

How sick we have become when intelligence is gauged by how many insults one can give on any given article..

All the Reeds I know are unregenerate English savages from up by the Carter Bar. Otterburn way. Worse than Moscrops or Turnbulls for fighting and turbulence, to this day.
[NB! not "Reids", they're Scots, and foreign].
Still deadly feu’d with the Halls, Robsons, Ell’ots, Kerrs, Charltons etc. Hide the knives, Betty, Lord Percy’s grieve is coming to dinner.
I suppose you people call them “Scots-Irish”. Well they’re not. They just ended up that way, due to being a tad “antisocial”, even by medieval standards.

El Tel; potentially the greatest England manager of all time, in charge of the Golden Generation. But he never got picked again after his first run out. ” .. came under intense scrutiny and censure in the media for his business dealings, which led MP Kate Hoey to state in Parliament that Venables was unfit for the post of national team manager ..”
A very obvious wide boy and chancer, in the kindest analysis. But he did have the London press on his side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Venables
Still does. even though he’s in his 70s.

Fred thank you for spreading the word about the Tidewater. I am also descend from two FFV families.

My New England friends assume that we chowed down on hog’s knuckles and are amazed that my grandmother played Brahms.

Can you imagine any modern politician believably penning “We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor,”

A subject other than the normal one of mediocrity and the mankind’s lowest common denominator?
The horror!

I understand where you are coming from. My father’s family is similar. I got told once by my aunt that I should have done something because it was expected. Her children are majority university professors, while the only thing I did right was to master two foreign languages albeit with an accent, including our mostly forgotten family’s ancestral tongue, and be able to survive in three others.

The accounts of the era didn’t seem to make it particularly disease ridden. I imagine at least some of the vectors of illness, such as widespread rodent infestation, were not as common in the agrarian South.

The Cavalier aristocracy involved more a sense of what one should be, how one in a position of responsibility should behave. It is largely gone. I am not sure that we would not profit by its return.

A lot of it will return, because it is born of a truth that the current dispensation does not know. In those days men did not think so much of changing the world, but of how they were supposed to live in it as it was. This is what Jesus taught if you read the Gospels with your eyes open.

Once the world-savers of today have found themselves surrounded by the ashes and ruin born of their hubris we will find that virtue again and the world will profit.

“a tranquility undisturbed by the stench and clamor of today”: disease-ridden, though, wasn’t it? Was that poo-in-the-water related? Or mainly slave-related? Or something else entirely?

[…] From what I have read, the founding stock of both the Deep South and the British West Indies was drawn heavily from the West and Metropolitan London in England. Scots-Irish settled all over the backcountry while Cavaliers tended to settle the river valleys: […]

[…] the Tidewater and Deep South, the home of the English Cavaliers (see The Cavaliers) in Southwest England is evidence. The Scottish link (presumably Scots-Irish that settled in the […]

[…] modern civilized (Northwestern European) people by getting them to give up Islam. You can’t turn the U.S. Deep South and Greater Appalachia into Yankeedom or the Midlandsby getting the former two to give up fundamentalist […]

[…] of the country (see A Tentative Ranking of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers” and the The Cavaliers). To these peoples, there are is a natural division of and natural hierarchies and (and in this […]

[…] Flags of the American Nations – Here I discuss each of Colin Woodard’s American Nations, talking about the characteristics of each as well as a bit about each nation’s origins. The enduring features that make up Greater Appalachia, The Left Coast, the Deep South, etc. that live on in today’s America (and Canada and Mexico) can be traced to these ethnic differences in each region’s settling and subsequent immigration. […]

[…] areas of the British Isles. In the case of the settlers of the Tidewater and the Deep South, the Cavaliers, their ancestors hailed from southwest England. The founders of Greater Appalachia were the […]

[…] previously (see my posts A Tentative Ranking of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers” and Flags of the American Nations), the ancestors of the people that live in these areas came from certain, more aggressive […]

[…] we see, the Tidewater, the historic seat of the Cavalier Lowland South, leans towards team blue mostly because of the large Black population there (however, […]

[…] more on the nature of each “nation”, see my previous post Flags of the American Nations and/or this piece by Woodard on his book with respect to the Tea Party. This political split is not […]

[…] Flags of the American Nations – Here I discuss each of Colin Woodard’s American Nations, talking about the […]

[…] populations are interchangeable, not all Europeans are interchangeable. Nor, for that, matter, are all White Americans […]

[…] of the American Nations The Cavaliers Maps of the American Nations Rural White Liberals – a Key to Understanding the Political […]

[…] Flags of the American Nations The Cavaliers Maps of the American Nations Rural White Liberals – a Key to Understanding the Political Divide […]

[…] Big Data is kinda like their new younger brother, and is well-described by Salt Lake City. New Puritania (Ctrl-F for “Mormon” in the […]

“,,,and immediately battled the Natives in an attempt to subjugate and/or exterminate them.”

This is grossly inaccurate. The cavaliers were under strict orders from London to maintain peaceful trade relations with the indians and for the most part did so except when responding to indian aggression. After Samuel Argall’s diplomacy with Princess Pocahontas and her marriage to an English planter, peace was the norm until more indian surprise attacks and widespread slaughter of the English.

Governor Sir William Berkeley tried his best to suppress Bacon’s rebellion where some planters without authorization sought revenge for indian violence. Berkeley put down the anti-indian rebel planters and severely punished them.

Please revisit your history of Anglo-indian relations in tidewater Virginia.

Otherwise, good post.

[…] Church. This group is perhaps the most divorced from its origins of the representative church of the Cavaliers of the lowland South (the Tidewater and the Deep South). It remains quite alive in the Tidewater […]

[…] Flags of the American Nations – Describes the American nations as they exist today and their respective histories […]

[…] clannish elements of British American society, the descendants of the Cavaliers and the Ulster Scots, are indifferent to contributing a common pot, and they are certainly […]

I must say that I have some ideas of my own for the nations’ flags.

I find your Yankeedom flag rather cluttered, and I’ve thought of a simpler sort of graphic: a stylized lighthouse. Both in the literal sense of the numerous lighthouses of the New England coast, and also in the metaphorical sense of bringing learning and social justice. Lighthouses are for helping others find their way in darkness, so they don’t get hurt by hidden hazards.

I’d thought of putting Lux et Veritas / Light & Truth on it, but I was worried about cluttering.

I like your Left Coast flag, but I’ve thought of an alternative to that hippie theme. A version of the Cascadia “Doug” flag, with the tree in the middle a stylized Christmas tree, to represent the tall conifers of the West Coast, both Douglas firs and redwoods.

I’ve also thought of an idea for a Northern Alliance flag: a Left Coast conifer and a Yankeedom lighthouse, or other Left Coast and Yankeedom symbols, on a New Netherland flag. I couldn’t think of a good Dixie Bloc one, so I put Deep South, Tidewater, Appalachia, and Far West on each quadrant.

[…] clannish elements of British American society, the descendants of the Cavaliers and the Ulster Scots, are indifferent to contributing a common pot, and they are certainly […]

[…] political disarray speaks to the increased conflict between the distinct American Nations, as discussed by David Hackett Fischer and Colin Woodard. Both Turchin and Woodard noted […]

[…] nations were, the Cavaliers and the denizens of the English-Scottish border areas (also see Flags of the American Nations). Indeed, while the “home” states of those two groups, Virginia and West Virginia, […]

[…] were founded by two much more aggressive groups of fore-bearers than the northern nations were, the Cavaliers and the denizens of the English-Scottish border areas (also see Flags of the American Nations). […]

[…] conflict between the various “nations” that make up the United States (and Canada). See Flags of the American Nations and Maps of the […]

[…] course, I don’t have to tell you that the Cavalier and Borderlander sentiment is still alive and well (the latter of which gave us the KKK – albeit […]

[…] of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers” Sound Familiar? Flags of the American Nations The Cavaliers Maps of the […]

[…] Tentative Ranking of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers” Sound Familiar? Flags of the American Nations The Cavaliers Maps of the […]

[…] of failure for which selection has only been weakly able to act against. But the Puritan will to perfect man and society causes us to fight against this – even blaming ourselves for not living “well” enough […]

Virginia was a very different place than the Deep South. From New England to North Carolina, there was a heavy concentration of religious dissenters and political dissidents. The Middle Colonies and North Carolina were particularly infested with rebellious people and radical thinkers, such as with Quakers clashing with Anglians in North Carolina which relates to the War of Regulation.

The War of Regulation is seen by some as the beginning of the American Revolution. During the revolutionary era, Tidewater elites gave more freedom to religious dissenters in seeking their support. Later on, they were unable to fully regain their elite authority which made religious disestablishment inevitable. Plus, Tidewater lites like Jefferson had become influenced by Northern thinking. Jefferson looked to Quaker Pennsylvania for an example of successful religious disestablishment.

There’s diversity within regions too. Check out Fischer’s section on ideas of freedom that developed in Virginia in his book *Bound Away*:

http://books.google.com/books?id=GFa7KVPWmKwC&pg=PA131&dq=%22new+patterns+of+social+thought+began+to+develop%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4MMLUvK5CdHB4APWnoC4DQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22new%20patterns%20of%20social%20thought%20began%20to%20develop%22&f=false

Sounds like all Tidewater Virginians believed in what Fischer calls “hegemonic freedom”, but the western piedmont, where Madison and Jefferson were from, were much more pluralistic, and had Enlightenment notions that they got from John Witherspoon, etc.

Note the nascent Appalachians wanted nothing to do with this. Patrick Henry opposed Madison in terms of non-establishment of state religion, was an autodidact, his populism was the opposite Madison’s gentlemanly political style, was against the US constitution (was an anti-federalist), and even tried to gerrymander Madison out of his congressional district…

[…] A Tentative Ranking of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers”, Sound Familiar?, Flags of the American Nations, […]

[…] the myddle people | hbd* chick) originate from the industrial North Midlands. The Cavaliers (see The Cavaliers) hail from southwestern England. And the Scotch-Irish Borderlanders (see “culture” of honor | […]

[…] Tentative Ranking of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers” and The Cavaliers – from […]

Even that map in your link backs up the point I made. It shows New York west of the Hudson valley as part of the North region and part of the Inland North sub-dialect which includes most of the territory on the Great Lakes including eastern Wisconsin. New England is an entirely separate dialect according to that map.

“These men represented the best of their culture; the sexual activities of other planters made even William Byrd appear a model of restraint. An old tidewater folk saying in Prince George’s County, Maryland, defined a virgin as a girl who could run faster than her uncle.”

Are these the “good ol’ days” and “American values” I keep hearing lamented today?