Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

[Stalker]

Not going to bicker about those words.

The fact is "boy" means "male".

Boy is not a good word to use to speak to a group of people like Era who include women and non-binary/gender fluid people.

I have no idea why you want to fight for that word, and I don't think anything I could say could convince you to stop.

As I said, you do you.

I don't use the word outside of irony.

The fact is you're purposefully ignoring the larger topic and focusing on your own self issue here.

Folks can be offensive
Mates can be offensive
Guys can be offensive

To specific individuals anything can be offensive, you don't seem to give a shit about anything else or the larger topic that you have created just your personal opinions and that's fine you do you but don't start moaning because others don't share that belief.

As an aside
As I said previously dismissive posting of contrasting opinions is blatantly an attempt to offend and that's all over this thread because Era has this culture that descend from the rafters to mock and bully people of different opinions because they put themselves as bastions of progressiveness. That's not a good thing to do either but it happens and nothing gets done about it.

Also if anyone has issues or is offended by any posts I've made my intent has not been to antagonise but attempt actual discussion. I apologise if I've offended inadvertently

If guys is not gendered, mate is not gendered.

If dude is not gendered, mate is not gendered.

How far are you taking this?

Boys IS gendered. 100%.

Mate, guys, dudes.... all better than Boys.

But Guys is gendered in the UK and so is Mates, again you personal opinions don't speak for everyone stop acting like they do.

Guys even has the opposit terms "Gals" in the US. It's a gendered term.

"Mate, guys, dudes.... all better than Boys." <- to you, not to others. My GF would be offended by guy or mate so lets stop that shit to eh?

 

[doodlewhizz]

But how do you know if someone you think is male is actually NB and keeping quiet about it? Best to remove gender entirely to be safe.

No qualms about that either. I was more referring to instances where you know everyone is a guy (probably by knowing the people you're playing with)

As I said, completely unintentional mistakes do happen especially for a term like 'guys'which is so ingrained, but it's an easy change to make if someone alerts you to the fact.

 

[DistortionOfReality]

I live in the UK and can confirm mate is just neutral (unless there is a gendered history I'm unaware of?)

I would also like to take this opportunity to suggest my personal favorite way to address a collective;

Listen up sports fans

EDIT: just realised this is in gaming side - does this not need to be moved?

 

[astro]

I don't use the word outside of irony.

The fact is you're purposefully ignoring the larger topic and focusing on your own self issue here.

Folks can be offensive
Mates can be offensive
Guys can be offensive

To specific individuals anything can be offensive, you don't seem to give a shit about anything else or the larger topic that you have created just your personal opinions and that's fine you do you but don't start moaning because others don't share that belief.

As an aside
As I said previously dismissive posting of contrasting opinions is blatantly an attempt to offend and that's all over this thread because Era has this culture that descend from the rafters to mock and bully people of different opinions because they put themselves as bastions of progressiveness. That's not a good thing to do either but it happens and nothing gets done about it.

Also if anyone has issues or is offended by any posts I've made my intent has not been to antagonise but attempt actual discussion. I apologise if I've offended inadvertently

Simple fact:

Boys is 100% gendered. So don't use it to refer to all genders.

That's it.

 

[kamineko]

I gave it up a while ago, have been weeding out "you guys," too. I prefer "y'all" anyway

I can be slow picking up on shit, as I've been conditioned not to pick up on shit. One I notice I try to adjust

 

[astro]

I gave it up a while ago, have been weeding out "you guys," too. I prefer "y'all" anyway

I can be slow picking up on shit, as I've been conditioned not to pick up on shit. One I notice I try to adjust

Good work. :)

 

[Razor Mom]

If guys is not gendered, mate is not gendered.

If dude is not gendered, mate is not gendered.

How far are you taking this?

Boys IS gendered. 100%.

Mate, guys, dudes.... all better than Boys.

To you. These findings apply to you. In the same way some people feel boys isn't gendered, or mate, or guys etc. These rules apply to you. Somebody with comparable life experiences to you, who grew up where I did, where "mate" has inherently male implications, would feel differently to you and could well be offended by its use just like you are by "boys".

 

[Laughing Banana]

Folk
Y'all
Everyone
All
Mates
People
Peeps
Friends
Pals
Etc...

Honest, serious question: What do you feel about ladies and gentlemen? Because I often used it when I play with my friends.

 

[Fatoy]

Even removing gender from the equation, everyone has a vastly different life experience that could make some seemingly benign terms have emotional value to them, or a different meaning from their small corner of the world, or anything. If it's not as easy as deciding what is hurtful to you, and using that as a template for others to follow (which is what you're doing in this case, but also what people that disagree with you are doing) then it has to become an exercise in trying to understand the potential impact of supposedly harmless words on people who find them offensive. There are suggestions for alternatives here that would insult some people, even mate like you've suggested. The question is ultimately how far is any individual willing to go to accommodate all of these potential situations, whilst also understanding they will never humanly avoid all of them.

This is absolutely it.

Guys may not gendered to some people, but it is to others. I'd use it generically, but someone who grew up in the 50s being segmented into guys and dolls/gals might not. Dude is also generic to me, but it's not to others.

I don't think anybody is, in good conscience, saying it's great to call mixed gender groups "boys". I'm certainly not. But what I think people are trying to do (and what I'm certainly trying to do) is encourage you to look at how trying to force a universal opinion in an area as complex and varied as language is not necessarily a good idea.

 

[astro]

To you. These findings apply to you. In the same way some people feel boys isn't gendered, or mate, or guys etc. These rules apply to you. Somebody with comparable life experiences to you, who grew up where I did, where "mate" has inherently male implications, would feel differently to you and could well be offended by its use just like you are by "boys".

This thread is about the word boys.

Which is 100% gendered.

So don't use it to refer to groups where all genders are present.

Honest, serious question: What do you feel about ladies and gentlemen? Because I often used it when I play with my friends.

Well, that wouldn't cover me. If it covers your friends it's perfectly fine, you're covering everyone present, that's the goal.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

No, because mate is non-gendered and boys is.

Not everyone will like every word, that's fine, they can let you know.

This is about simply not assigning gender to people where you don't have to, and not using the dominant gender to refer to people who are less included.

Earlier, you were talking about impact versus intent. What makes the impact on gender fluid individuals more important than the impact on individuals who take offense to certain words? Shouldn't we be cognizant of impact of all words on all peoples?

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

The post doesn't equate this with those, in fact it literally says "this is not as severe as those" so it actually distances itself from them.

What it does do is use those exampels to show Intent Vs impact, to try to help you understand how that happens here too.

Oh then I wasn't careful enough during reading. I agree with your opinion, though I think it should be a minor annoyance (and something that should definitely change sooner or later).

 

[PrintedCrayon]

Simple fact:

Boys is 100% gendered. So don't use it to refer to all genders.

That's it.

But this isn't policing words people can use, nah?

What if a group you're with isn't offended by its usage? Doesn't the intent of the word change alongside who you're using it with?

I'm not particularly keen on trying to limit or dismiss people's language use...

 

[astro]

Earlier, you were talking about impact versus intent. What makes the impact on gender fluid individuals more important than the impact on individuals who take offense to certain words? Shouldn't we be cognizant of impact of all words on all peoples?

Do you consider the word guys non-gendered?

 

[Stalker]

Simple fact:

Boys is 100% gendered. So don't use it to refer to all genders.

That's it.

Simple fact:

Intent is important and the term boys is used inclusively,

The problem is yours and not others.

That's it.


^ See we can all use dismissive nonsense to reply but it's meaningless and your opinion isn't everyones and you stance here is becoming more and more that only your opinion is one we should give a shit about.

 

[WhiteNovember]

But what I think people are trying to do (and what I'm certainly trying to do) is encourage you to look at how trying to force a universal opinion in an area as complex and varied as language is not necessarily a good idea.

Exactly.

 

[Razor Mom]

This thread is about the word boys.

Which is 100% gendered.

So don't use it to refer to groups where all genders are present.



Well, that wouldn't cover me.

You can't use the rules you've come to, which may make perfect sense to you, and apply them to everyone. "Mate" is 100% gendered to other people, and neither boys nor mate has any gender to other people. You saying that boys is "100% gendered" may be the truth to you, but it's not the truth to everyone. It's not about disregarding other people's feelings, or people would assume you're being purposefully disrespectful by using the term "mate" to refer to people who aren't male, and I don't think you're trying to be disrespectful when you do that.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

Do you consider the word guys non-gendered?

You didn't answer the question. What makes impact on non-gendered individuals more important? If we are advocating for impact based analysis, shouldn't we consider everyone's feelings?

 

[Stalker]

I live in the UK and can confirm mate is just neutral (unless there is a gendered history I'm unaware of?)

Shipmate being exclusively male, Large portions of the UK's women will not be comfortable being called Mate. My GF and her friend group actively have discussed how much they didn't like it in the past.

 

[astro]

Simple fact:

Intent is important and the term boys is used inclusively,

The problem is yours and not others.

That's it.


^ See we can all use dismissive nonsense to reply but it's meaningless and your opinion isn't everyones and you stance here is becoming more and more that only your opinion is one we should give a shit about.

That's not how it works.

Boys means men.

Many non-men don't mind being called men you say? Cool.

Many do because it excludes them.

So let's just not refer to all genders as men?

Cool.

 

[astro]

You didn't answer the question. What makes impact on non-gendered individuals more important? If we are advocating for impact based analysis, shouldn't we consider everyone's feelings?

I am getting there. If you answer my question you will see why I'm asking.

Do you think guys is non-gendered?

 

[Razor Mom]

That's not how it works.

Boys means men.

Many non-men don't mind being called men you say? Cool.

Many do because it excludes them.

So let's just not refer to all genders as men?

Cool.

This logic can be applied to words you use, by people who see words differently than you do. I've already mentioned how "mate" is inherently male in certain parts of the world, and therefore to certain people, but it doesn't really seem like you're interested in discussing that.

 

[Van Bur3n]

That’s why you just use “y'all” and “folk” like a proper gent.

 

[Hilarious_Bearious]

Honest, serious question: What do you feel about ladies and gentlemen? Because I often used it when I play with my friends.

I think you should be careful with the word "lady". It implies a standard or degree of femininity and behaviour that a woman must comply with in order to be acceptable or high status. Sure, the vast majority of people using it mean nothing by it, and I'm sure most people hearing it don't care, but the word is certainly loaded.

If you're saying ironically or to muck around with friends, it's probably OK I guess?

 

[Driggonny]

Uhhh how the hell are we arguing boys isn't gendered lol

 

[Fatoy]

Shipmate being exclusively male, Large portions of the UK's women will not be comfortable being called Mate. My GF and her friend group actively have discussed how much they didn't like it in the past.

That's actually not the etymological root of the word mate, I don't think, but it's a good example because it is how the word has its most contemporaneous historical usage, which is where it gets a lot of its context from.

Maybe it's a Northern UK thing (I'm from Manchester) but this is the precise reason my sister-in-law gave for not wanting to be called "mate". Is she objectively, academically "wrong"? Yes. Are her feelings valid anyway? Yes, to the same extent as anyone's subjective feelings are, which is why objectivity doesn't work in these situations.

 

[Resilient]

They matter very little to me because.

1. I don't personally know them.
2. Anyone can be offended by anything and on a personal level you have to find your balance of how offensive you want to be.
3. It's incredibly minor in the grand scheme
4. Opinions of unknown others are for the majority of existence pointless to me.

I can't give a shit and emphasis with everyone over everything it's not humanly possible. You could not get out of bed in a morning if you did. Imagine giving a shit about every single starving or abused child or animal or adult or insects you step on or the countless past atrocities of humanity and the infinite number of dead life in the universe. It's not possible you and I and everyone else make a judgement on how much we give a shit about something. Yours and mine are just different buddy.

dude, WTF? nobody is asking or bringing up anything in that last paragraph of yours.

i find it really interesting you would go to these lengths to justify it VS acknowledging that it's a minor correction people could make that would positively impact others.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

I am getting there. If you answer my question you will see why I'm asking.

Do you think guys is non-gendered?

My personal opinions do not matter? I am simply asking you to apply your analysis equally to all individuals. If you are asking individuals to consider the impact of their words on gender fluid individuals, why shouldn't we also ask you, or anyone else for that matter, to consider their own words and their impact on individuals? What makes gender fluid people more important than the feelings of other people?

 

[PrintedCrayon]

I think you should be careful with the word "lady". It implies a standard or degree of femininity and behaviour that a woman must comply with in order to be acceptable or high status. Sure, the vast majority of people using it mean nothing by it, and I'm sure most people hearing it don't care, but the word is certainly loaded.

If you're saying ironically or to muck around with friends, it's probably OK I guess?

I honestly can't tell whether this is satire.

 

[Razor Mom]

That's actually not the etymological root of the word mate, I don't think, but it's a good example because it is how the word has its most contemporaneous historical usage, which is where it gets a lot of its context from.

Maybe it's a Northern UK thing (I'm from Manchester) but this is the precise reason my sister-in-law gave for not wanting to be called "mate". Is she objectively, academically "wrong"? Yes. Are her feelings valid anyway? Yes, to the same extent as anyone's subjective feelings are, which is why objectivity doesn't work in these situations.

Grew up in North Yorkshire here, where mate is absolutely male. And yeah I basically agree with what you're saying.

 

[Gacha Santa Alter]

No offense OP but you acting so dismissive and above it all when someone raises similar concerns about the "safer" alternatives you provide isn't really doing you any favours.

 

[Fatoy]

This thread is about the word boys.

It is, but it also has broader applications and implications that you're wilfully ignoring because they don't fall within your particular sphere of experience. I'm totally happy not to use boys to apply to mixed-gender groups because I never used it that way anyway, but this is not a conversation you can have in a vacuum.

In fact this isn't even a conversation; this is part of a conversation.

 

[DeusOcha]

I don't know about y'all but I personally use
- Y'all
- Peeps
- People
- Everyone
- Everybody
- Erryone
- Errybody
- Scumbags

In both text and voice comms and get by with no problem.

 

[BearPawB]

I think that for us CIS people we honestly don't think about our gender very often.

Being male is a fact about me. But I am almost never thinking about it. Or what my maleness means.

Which is probably an issue, and why these things creep up. This is male privilege. Part of my privilege is not having to really think about being male.

If as I was playing Apex, someone said, I "where we dropping ladies?" i would probably chuckle but that's about it.

But I can see why, for people who gender is something they think about every day, regardless if they want to, this would be annoying. If I were someone who was constantly misgendered. If I were someone who had to fight for people to call me my name I want to be called...i can totally see why I would care a lot about this topic.

I say guys a lot. And it is a hard habit to stop. But I think that anyone who considers themselves someone who respects all people you should probably try to do that.

 

[Stalker]

I am getting there. If you answer my question you will see why I'm asking.

Do you think guys is non-gendered?

Why does it matter what they think? If some people consider it gendered and others don't. Or are you arbitrarly going to start decided who is wrong and right based on his answer and shy away from the actual discussion in favour or lording your own opinion above others as the "Fact"?

You're not actually interested in this topic as much as you are in being right and others being wrong. Anyone who sides with you gets a lovely little "thank you for being considerate post" yet you refuse to be considerate about others opinions and world views and localised experiences

dude, WTF? nobody is asking or bringing up anything in that last paragraph of yours.

i find it really interesting you would go to these lengths to justify it VS acknowledging that it's a minor correction people could make that would positively impact others.

You asked why I didn't care about specific opinions of specific people. I used the example to show how minor and small such a tiny problem is and to state that it's not actually possible to give a shit about everything and we all draw our line in the sand somewhere and yours and mine are just at different locations. However some people and maybe I incorrectly identified you as such and for that I apologise act like they don't draw a line and are infinitely empathetic and it's bullshit because we all pick and choose what we give a shit about.

As evidence here.

Uhhh how the hell are we arguing boys isn't gendered lol

That's not really the discussion

We are talking about how as a term it's used inclusively and aside from gender and that OP only gives a shit about their opinion and no one elses and holds it as the only truth and actively deflects others opinions on the subject.

 

[Moirayn]

I am getting there. If you answer my question you will see why I'm asking.

Do you think guys is non-gendered?

Guys is 100% gendered. You can't ignore a word's origin just because it has become colloquially used to refer to a mixed group.

 

[DistortionOfReality]

Shipmate being exclusively male, Large portions of the UK's women will not be comfortable being called Mate. My GF and her friend group actively have discussed how much they didn't like it in the past.

Actually had no idea. Having said that, I probably wouldn't use it when talking to women outside my friend group (who use it themselves), so I guess there is no reason I would have been aware of any offense. Noted for the future though.

 

[astro]

Okay, so it mates is a word that is truly considered male, then let's drop that one too! :)

 

[Stalker]

That's actually not the etymological root of the word mate, I don't think, but it's a good example because it is how the word has its most contemporaneous historical usage, which is where it gets a lot of its context from.

Maybe it's a Northern UK thing (I'm from Manchester) but this is the precise reason my sister-in-law gave for not wanting to be called "mate". Is she objectively, academically "wrong"? Yes. Are her feelings valid anyway? Yes, to the same extent as anyone's subjective feelings are, which is why objectivity doesn't work in these situations.

Very Northern here too.

 

[Razor Mom]

Guys is 100% gendered. You can't ignore a word's origin just because it has become colloquially used to refer to a mixed group.

This works both ways. Mate has a non-gendered origin but has very gendered implications in parts of the world and to many people. A lot of these words are a matter of background and personal perspectives.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I think you should be careful with the word "lady". It implies a standard or degree of femininity and behaviour that a woman must comply with in order to be acceptable or high status. Sure, the vast majority of people using it mean nothing by it, and I'm sure most people hearing it don't care, but the word is certainly loaded.

If you're saying ironically or to muck around with friends, it's probably OK I guess?

Hmm well sometimes I used it with strangers too. I thought it was polite, if maybe a bit posh, but maybe you're right.

 

[Fatoy]

Okay, so it mates is a word that is truly considered male, then let's drop that one too! :)

You're completely missing the point. People have taken great pains to explain why you cannot be objective about something that has such a broad spectrum of subjectivity, and your response is "cool, let's roll out another blanket rule then!".

 

[astro]

This works both ways. Mate has a non-gendered origin but has very gendered implications in parts of the world and to many people. A lot of these words are a matter of background and personal perspectives.

So let's drop mates.

Let's also drop boys.

"Hey everyone"
"Hey pals"
"Hey people"
"Hey all"

 

[astro]

You're completely missing the point. People have taken great pains to explain why you cannot be objective about something that has such a broad spectrum of subjectivity, and your response is "cool, let's roll out another blanket rule then!".

No I'm not.

This thread is literally about the word BOYS, which means male.

In a male dominant environment, where we struggle for gender equality, another 100% male dominant word that literally MEANS male is a step backwards.

This is the point of the thread.

 

[Moirayn]

This works both ways. Mate has a non-gendered origin but has very gendered implications in parts of the world and to many people. A lot of these words are a matter of background and personal perspectives.

Agreed.

 

[Fatoy]

Hmm well sometimes I used it with strangers too. I thought it was polite, if maybe a bit posh, but maybe you're right.

You'll still find people using "ladies and gentlemen" at the start of speeches and the like, because public speaking tended to happen in 'polite society' where the speaker would be addressing nobility. It's probably not something I'd use today, because I recognise that it's outdated, but it is yet another example of how context and experience trumps pure etymology.

 

[Stalker]

So let's drop mates.

Let's also drop boys.

"Hey everyone"
"Hey pals"
"Hey people"
"Hey all"

Again missing the point, You can't be objective.

"Pals" can be offensive, "People" sounds like a robot speaking. "All" doesn't follow a traditional UK speech cadence.

You have actively shortened the list of acceptable words. Word policing something you said you arn't doing.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Uhhh how the hell are we arguing boys isn't gendered lol

Because "everything is offensive to someone else" and "people choose to be offended". Quality arguments right there, although nothing new; this "blame the offended" and "sticks and stones" narrative has been used for decades to legitimize the use of all and any word.

 

[Eien1no1Yami]

The Greek equivalent of “Hey guys” is “Hey children” so in my language it’s totaly gender neutral and to me it really sounds awkward when I use the Engish phrase.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

Okay, so it mates is a word that is truly considered male, then let's drop that one too! :)

It seems you missed the point of our socratic dialogue. it isn't just gender that matters for the purposes of impact analysis. You have to consider things like cultural appropriation, ageism, and all other kinds of experience discrimination that people go through. for example, you are advocating for the use of y'all as a common parlance of a group of people. Did you stop to consider the impact that would have on people from the south who feel that is a cultural appropriation?

did you stop to think about the impact of the word mates on people from Australia? The impact on gender fluid people is not the most important thing in the world. You have to consider the impact on everybody incoming to a cultural consensus. You don't simply get to change words and start using words that offend other people.