Criticizing Dems/Libs = Bad = You Deserve Trump? Is criticizing Dems/libs bad?When's the right time to do it?Not all comes from the right-wing, right?

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Iloelemen

Banned
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Oct 27, 2017
1,263
#1
There was a time when I thought all criticisms of Democrats / Liberals were racist, sexist, from the alt-right etc. Looking back, I now think the notion is absurd but, how can one separate criticisms that come from the right-wing vs genuine criticisms?

And speaking of criticizing Democrats, there seems to be the idea that criticizing them is bad, is just "eating our own", is just gonna lead to another year of trump, and how it's not the right time to do it. Are all these valid? When is the right time to do it?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,455
#2
This question seems to come from an uncritical view of the world. You are not beholden to political sides, you are only supposed to inform yourself on issues and make up your own mind. You can criticize people that come to different conclusions than you, or people that reason through an issue in a different matter.

Now, not all criticism is done in good faith, is constructive or is timely. I think the most important question you asked is "when is the right time". I would like add, "what is the best manner".
 
Oct 8, 2018
400
#3
There’s never a right time. That’s the grift.

It’s like every time there’s a mass shooting and gun nuts say it’s “too soon” to talk about gun control. It’s just an attempt to shut down a discussion they don’t want to have.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,453
#4
It's a problem when the Left becomes part of an echo chamber of criticism WITH the right, which will never happen in reverse because the right does not care and will always falls in line with their awful representatives. You have way to many disengaged voters who formulate opinions based on rolling negativity to be so unstrategic if you believe the candidate or party both should win and merits criticism.

For example: It was perfectly fine to have a problem with Hillary's history, her stupid use of a private email server, Bill Clinton and many aspects of her campaign (including DNC favoritism). It's not really a great idea to openly attack her as a criminal or a shrew or whatever else during an election because even if you think these things, you NEEDED her to be in the best possible position against something so much significantly worse.
 

Midramble

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,544
San Francisco
#5
It's a bit of a dilemma. The left is fundamentally about progression and contestation even against itself while the right is fundamentally about hardening your existing belief and resisting progression.

The comments about eating your own is more a frustration at this foundation of friction towards progress. It will always be there.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,455
#7
It's a bit of a dilemma. The left is fundamentally about progression and contestation even against itself while the right is fundamentally about hardening your existing belief and resisting progression.

The comments about eating your own is more a frustration at this foundation of friction towards progress. It will always be there.
Its not always Right-Left, that's a more modern and western view. Conservative vs progressive, in its deepest sense is a more accurate representation. Look at it this way, if in 100 years we reach a point were governments have attacked corporate interests and have really solved a lot of the social inequalities we see, most of us would be deeply conservative. We would never want the progressives to change the status-quo and start taking away power from minorities and giving it back to corporations. Progressiveness is always harder because you have to fight the inertia of your country's mindset.

Let me give an example. If we consider reproductive rights in the US. Liberal want to do two things at the same time. Defend the rights that have been so hard fought and expand them to cover more women and under more conditions. The other side just wants to bring the whole thing down. If you put society on the balance, the people wanting to expand the rights and the people wanting to regress are both trying to tip over the balance to their favor, but one side wants controlled movement and the other side just wants chaos.

This creates a response from liberal moderates, they rather keep the status quo than try and fight for positive change out of fear of a negative change occurring. Right winger do not have to argue in good faith anymore. They just need to create chaos between the center and the left and use the opportunity to throw the whole thing down. Progressives cannot afford to do this. They have the responsibility of holding down whats given and at the same time move it in a specific direction, a much harder task.
 
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guek

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
#9
Just fight for what you believe in and try to avoid generalizations or misdirected anger. Add a bit of routine introspection from time to time and you'll be fine.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,605
#10
The people who say "this is how you get Trump" in response to dems criticizing dems are people who aren't actually willing to internalize how insidious bigotry is within this country. They look for an easy solution to the reality of Trump's election, that there must be something inherently wrong with democratic communities that leads to republican success. I'm not going to at all deny that liberals can get better candidates and that we do need a focus on messaging but the real issue is that the GOP and Republicans are highly invested in white supremacy and will come out in droves to elect and protect gross candidates. Couple that with the amount of people who "don't think their votes matter" or just have and apathetic attitude toward politics and it means we're always on the razors edge of getting bigots into office either way. No political party is 100% united on literally every stance and even if there were, just by the nature of being human we will always but heads and have arguments. There's nothing more unique about liberals fighting than any other group of people. People want to pretend that it's all going to result in holding the party back when the reality is we can only grow as a party if we're willing to take these genuine criticism and advice and learn from it. There is also no such thing as the perfect time. Time doesn't wait for you to get all your ducks in a row.

In terms of how can one separate genuine criticism from right wing bullshit if it's really something that comes from being informed as well as the context it's shared in. Just as an example: I've heard the phrase "liberals need to stop focusing on identity politics" in one form or another more times than I've heard hello these past few years. And usually I hear it in the context of an issue involving marginalized groups. When you break down a criticism like that you start to realize what such a person is really trying to say. What's identity politics? Why is it less valid to be focused on than any other type of discourse? Who's identities are they trying to claim need to be ignored? With questions like these you start to get to the heart of a critique or argument. Just in general responding to a criticism with "Who does this favor?" you'll get a clearer picture. You'll start to figure out if a critique is borne out of good or bad faith. I'm half-asleep so I hope this is all coherent and makes some sense.

A really good political media podcast Citations Needed touched on this in a recent topic about the existence of Republicans who just want to give friendly advice to their neighbors across the isle. It's critique put forward like it's genuine but falls apart not only because of who says it but in what they're actually trying to push underneath the veneer of a friendly conversation:

Yeah. Thanks everyone for listening. It’s a trope that dates back more than a decade, but the rise of Senator Bernie Sanders and House Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has seen a recent surge in, what we’re calling the Liberal’s “Inexplicable Republican Best Friend,” a specific genre of concern trolling where a long-time Republican operative, politician or pundit offers supposedly well-intentioned “advice” to Democrats about how they can win elections, which always relies on, get this, avoiding veering “too far left.”

Adam: These takes — frequently featured as earnest appeals in liberal and centrist outlets — are ostensibly framed as straight-talk advice that should be accepted as objectively in the Democrats’ best interest, and never presented as an ideological argument that would otherwise make sense coming from a right-winger. “Republican hates socialism” isn’t that newsworthy of a headline, whereas “GOP operative identifies Democrats’ best interests,” somehow is. As with most ideological scams, it only travels in one direction: leftward. One seldom hears liberals or leftists give “advice” to Republicans about they ought to do to win. This isn’t a posture they ever mimic, or they’d be laughed out of the room.

Nima: Somehow the inverse is never true. Anti-choice, climate change denying, racist, rape apologist, warmongering, overpaid mercenary GOP “strategists” are treated like objective, neutral voices simply looking out for the best interests of the very people and institutions they’ve spent literally their entire careers trying to destroy.
Medium Transcript + Episode Audio
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,993
Fiddler's Green
#11
There's nothing wrong with substantive critique of candidate of establishment policies. There is something wrong with the cliquish tribalism that seems to bloom in every primary, where the critiques are often of the "bitch eating crackers" variety, and hurled with invective usually reserved for someone you hate, instead of someone in the same party, with the same general goals, but different methods of how to approach them. It's politics as sports, it's bad for the country, and people need to work harder to avoid it.
 
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Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,263
#12
There’s never a right time. That’s the grift.

It’s like every time there’s a mass shooting and gun nuts say it’s “too soon” to talk about gun control. It’s just an attempt to shut down a discussion they don’t want to have.
I think like this sometimes....
 

LinktothePastGOAT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
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Oct 27, 2017
4,879
#14
Criticize to strengthen the party is one thing. Tear down the candidate to defeat Donald Trump in arguably the most important election in a generation? Fuck you.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,446
New York City
#15
You criticize "your team" because you want it to do better and succeed.
What if criticizing your team prevented you from succeeding?

What if you were actually a player on your team but didn't realize it?

What if "the game" was an exersize in social engineering and criticism is a part of a strategy?
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,537
Japan
#16
I've been part of this community for quite a while and have witnessed a fair amount of political discussions, but recently it seems like there is a level of vitriol directed towards the left, and towards people who view themselves as being on the left that I haven't seen before. Some of these attacks are on fellow posters, rather than being criticisms of the left itself, and have involved jumping to wild conclusions that aren't supported by the posts that have been quoted. It has me taken aback.

I think we should all be critical of candidates on the left. It's good to want better things. But sometimes it feels like some of the attacks on the left serve no other purpose but to divide where there shouldn't be divisions, especially such bitter ones where people seem to be eager to assume the worst.
 
Jun 10, 2018
1,267
#17
The left has a serious serious problem of guilt tripping minorites (specifically black people) into toeing the line whenever they levy grievances against them. As if not actively wanting me and others dead somehow gives them a pass to neglect constituents or worse, promote the same hateful rhetoric as those in the center/right.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,161
#18
There's criticism and then there's burning the bridges thinking you'll never need them again only to figure out that, hey, you need them and you'll keep seeing them every single day and they will make you sit next to them in every wedding and office meeting forever.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,112
#19
I've been part of this community for quite a while and have witnessed a fair amount of political discussions, but recently it seems like there is a level of vitriol directed towards the left, and towards people who view themselves as being on the left that I haven't seen before. Some of these attacks are on fellow posters, rather than being criticisms of the left itself, and have involved jumping to wild conclusions that aren't supported by the posts that have been quoted. It has me taken aback.
We're entering primary season for the Democrat party, I fully expect it to rip this forum to shreds the way Bernie Sanders did on the old site.

Democrats are a party more naturally inclined towards being a coalition of sort similarly minded groups and factions - they'll never have the racial/philosophical cohesion of a party like the GOP (and that's a good thing). I think that fact is why parties like this often see a lot of "petty" infighting. Their consitutency represents a more broad palette of social attitudes and cultural differences than the lily-whiteness of the GOP.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,034
#20
It's a problem when the Left becomes part of an echo chamber of criticism WITH the right, which will never happen in reverse because the right does not care and will always falls in line with their awful representatives. You have way to many disengaged voters who formulate opinions based on rolling negativity to be so unstrategic if you believe the candidate or party both should win and merits criticism.

For example: It was perfectly fine to have a problem with Hillary's history, her stupid use of a private email server, Bill Clinton and many aspects of her campaign (including DNC favoritism). It's not really a great idea to openly attack her as a criminal or a shrew or whatever else during an election because even if you think these things, you NEEDED her to be in the best possible position against something so much significantly worse.
I agree. I find that far too often the left is happy to carry the right’s water for them and tear down those most aligned with the left’s agenda. Oftentimes while using conservative talking points. You saw it with Clinton. You see it with Pelosi. You will eventually see it with AOC, or pretty much any prominent woman in the Democratic party.
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,088
Western New York
#23
It's a problem when the Left becomes part of an echo chamber of criticism WITH the right, which will never happen in reverse because the right does not care and will always falls in line with their awful representatives. You have way to many disengaged voters who formulate opinions based on rolling negativity to be so unstrategic if you believe the candidate or party both should win and merits criticism.

For example: It was perfectly fine to have a problem with Hillary's history, her stupid use of a private email server, Bill Clinton and many aspects of her campaign (including DNC favoritism). It's not really a great idea to openly attack her as a criminal or a shrew or whatever else during an election because even if you think these things, you NEEDED her to be in the best possible position against something so much significantly worse.
Yea, this is what the real issue is. Don't adopt conservative talking points or conspiracy theories and mask them as "legit" criticism of candidates.

I often see articles posted here or on Twitter that are written with dubious, misleading headlines or missing key pieces of the story to try and rile up liberals to fight themselves and I just shake my head at how easily people buy into that nonsense. It comes across that they want to hate other liberals and they're looking for any excuse to justify that. Whether that excuse comes from a legit place or far right conspiracy theories or misleading articles.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,859
#24
It’s all about the rhetoric, hardly matters where criticisms originate from when it all ends up horrendously sensationalized in the process of public discourse. Boil them down to their base facts and it’s easy to judge their legitimacy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,471
#25
The right constantly eats itself and wins easily. So it's a bit of an overstated problem in my view.
The right doesn’t eat itself when it ‘matters.’ All the hand ringing and snipes at Trump, but when it comes time to vote for a nomination or bill or whatever they fall in line.

All the laughing about trump from ‘conservative’ voters but once he won the nomination they fell in line.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,537
Japan
#26
Democrats are a party more naturally inclined towards being a coalition of sort similarly minded groups and factions - they'll never have the racial/philosophical cohesion of a party like the GOP (and that's a good thing). I think that fact is why parties like this often see a lot of "petty" infighting. Their consitutency represents a more broad palette of social attitudes and cultural differences than the lily-whiteness of the GOP.
I'd say this rings true.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,179
#27
When the left starts regurgitating right-wing talking points, it’s pretty frustrating.

Also, I’m personally completely over criticism toward Obama. Heard it so much for 8 years when he was in from the right that it’s all white noise to me now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,179
#29
What criticisms from the left are right-wing and what criticisms are left-wing?
Poster below touches on it. As do a couple others. Not really worth the effort to sit here and try to recall every specific instance I’ve seen it. For the record, I’m not saying every bit of criticism is representative of this. Also, the poster he quoted touches on it as well.

Yea, this is what the real issue is. Don't adopt conservative talking points or conspiracy theories and mask them as "legit" criticism of candidates.

I often see articles posted here or on Twitter that are written with dubious, misleading headlines or missing key pieces of the story to try and rile up liberals to fight themselves and I just shake my head at how easily people buy into that nonsense. It comes across that they want to hate other liberals and they're looking for any excuse to justify that. Whether that excuse comes from a legit place or far right conspiracy theories or misleading articles.
 
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Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,263
#32
It’s all about the rhetoric, hardly matters where criticisms originate from when it all ends up horrendously sensationalized in the process of public discourse. Boil them down to their base facts and it’s easy to judge their legitimacy.
I feel like what does get legitimized and sensationalized usually favors the right-wing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,978
South East Asia
#33
There's never a right time, especially if you're a minority. I've probably seen Era "allies" tone-police muslims and black people a million times by now. We're supposed to close our eyes to blatant islamophobia and racism and "take one for the team".

EDIT: I should also add that this doesn't apply to muslim/black democrats. I've definitely seen people go to town on Ilhan Omar but be the first to tell you you're wrong when you criticize Pelosi.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,714
#35
Should be fine to criticize everyone you like during primary season. Once the candidate is set, if you're still talking shit then yes, you're picking Trump.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,498
#37
There's never a right time because the political cycle is such that once you're in, you spend a lot of your time getting ready for reelection, and obviously any kind of critique at all is not going to help and also you need to obey pOlItIcAl ReAliTiEs which is why there's been fuck all movement on Palestine from America for the last half century.

If political reality says you have to ignore matters of Palestine and stand with AIPAC by god you ignore them and tell everyone else to ignore them as well.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,498
#40
There's never a right time, especially if you're a minority. I've probably seen Era "allies" tone-police muslims and black people a million times by now. We're supposed to close our eyes to blatant islamophobia and racism and "take one for the team".
When you frame the maintenance of the status quo of oppression and suffering as "necessary sacrifices", but constantly demand those around you to "take one for the team", what you end up doing is perpetuating the systems you supposedly are trying to dismantle, because the sacrifice can't come from you, oh no, it needs to come from the people who're already suffering, and they need to be channeled to you as political power. Only the white liberal can be trusted or relied upon to navigate the halls of power.

White liberals want a pat on the back for not being racist and caring about minority rights, like this is their personal sacrifice and contribution to progressive causes. There's an undercurrent of "I don't have to take time out of my life for you, you know, I can just leave you to rot because I have privilege and you don't, you should be thankful I deign to be on your side".
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,036
#41
When you frame the maintenance of the status quo of oppression and suffering as "necessary sacrifices", but constantly demand those around you to "take one for the team", what you end up doing is perpetuating the systems you supposedly are trying to dismantle, because the sacrifice can't come from you, oh no, it needs to come from the people who're already suffering, and they need to be channeled to you as political power. Only the white liberal can be trusted or relied upon to navigate the halls of power.

White liberals want a pat on the back for not being racist and caring about minority rights, like this is their personal sacrifice and contribution to progressive causes. There's an undercurrent of "I don't have to take time out of my life for you, you know, I can just leave you to rot because I have privilege and you don't, you should be thankful I deign to be on your side".
Boom shakalacka.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,318
#43
When you frame the maintenance of the status quo of oppression and suffering as "necessary sacrifices", but constantly demand those around you to "take one for the team", what you end up doing is perpetuating the systems you supposedly are trying to dismantle, because the sacrifice can't come from you, oh no, it needs to come from the people who're already suffering, and they need to be channeled to you as political power. Only the white liberal can be trusted or relied upon to navigate the halls of power.

White liberals want a pat on the back for not being racist and caring about minority rights, like this is their personal sacrifice and contribution to progressive causes. There's an undercurrent of "I don't have to take time out of my life for you, you know, I can just leave you to rot because I have privilege and you don't, you should be thankful I deign to be on your side".
+1
 
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