NHL PLAYOFFS |OT| PUCK THE PAIN AWAY

Oct 25, 2017
6,428
Let me preface this quesiton by saying that I don't watch hockey regularly, or have any reliable conception of its rules or mechanics. I've only kept up a little bit this year because I have a friend that's become an obsessive Tampa Bay band wagoner.

That said, can someone explain the suspensions and penalties on Kadri and Kucherov? To a casual observer they don't really look that any more vicious or brutal than the usual hits and checks that only merit a couple minutes in the penalty box. What did they do that was particularly dangerous or unsportsmanlike? Why is it that flat-out fighting after play has stopped is not penalized as harshly as in-game rough-housing? To be clear I'm not defending Kadri or Kucherov nor do I think that the league or its officials made the wrong call......I just can't discern what makes their behavior particularly egregious.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,948
I say this: what Kadri did was entirely his fault, and no one elses. HOWEVER, the refs did let that game get way out of hand. Not excusing it. It's just they failed to set the tone like refs should. They are to blame for the environment, not the actions. That very first debrusk nonsense on kadri, should have been a penalty on debrusk alone. That shit with debrusk on dermott should have been a penalty... that knee by debrusk should have been a 2 and 10 (if he was still being wreckless at that point)

penalties aren't just giving a team advantages, they are setting the standard of acceptability. you don't call things and it's going to get out of hand. And it did. Leafs would have likely still lost, boston would have likely not have done all the stupid shit they did and kadri wouldn't have been so hot headed and stupid like he gets. doesn't mean he wouldn't have done something stupid, just the odds of it would be much lower.

Call both teams fair and strict, don't just call one for petty shit and the other gets away with pretty much everything. Like... fuck. All that does is fuck up the whole game and it's not enjoyable to watch and makes it even more aggravating to play. Dirty shit needs to be stamped out when it happens to prevent it from happening again. That's the point of it all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,948
Let me preface this quesiton by saying that I don't watch hockey regularly, or have any reliable conception of its rules or mechanics. I've only kept up a little bit this year because I have a friend that's become an obsessive Tampa Bay band wagoner.

That said, can someone explain the suspensions and penalties on Kadri and Kucherov? To a casual observer they don't really look that any more vicious or brutal than the usual hits and checks that only merit a couple minutes in the penalty box. What did they do that was particularly dangerous or unsportsmanlike? Why is it that flat-out fighting after play has stopped is not penalized as harshly as in-game rough-housing? To be clear I'm not defending Kadri or Kucherov nor do I think that the league or its officials made the wrong call......I just can't discern what makes their behavior particularly egregious.
Kucherov hit a player who was vulnerable... you cannot hit people in vulnerable positions (like from behind, for example). Kadri crosschecked the bruin in the head. That's a head hit, using the stick as a weapon.

Both are easy suspensions. Dirty plays that don't belong in the game. The actions themselves can lead to injury... there's only a few things in hockey where they suspend you even with no injury and both kadri and kucherov did a couple of them. Other examples are spearing (literally using your stick as a spear), or using your stick as a baseball bat (two handed slash)
 
Let me preface this quesiton by saying that I don't watch hockey regularly, or have any reliable conception of its rules or mechanics. I've only kept up a little bit this year because I have a friend that's become an obsessive Tampa Bay band wagoner.

That said, can someone explain the suspensions and penalties on Kadri and Kucherov? To a casual observer they don't really look that any more vicious or brutal than the usual hits and checks that only merit a couple minutes in the penalty box. What did they do that was particularly dangerous or unsportsmanlike? Why is it that flat-out fighting after play has stopped is not penalized as harshly as in-game rough-housing? To be clear I'm not defending Kadri or Kucherov nor do I think that the league or its officials made the wrong call......I just can't discern what makes their behavior particularly egregious.
Pretty much any time you hit an opposing player with a stick intentionally you're gonna get a penalty at the minimum and sometimes a suspension if it's bad enough. There's no set rule about how bad it needs to be to get a suspension, it's on a case to case basis.

Can't comment on kucherov because I Never saw what he did but Kadris was pretty bad and he'll probably get minimum 3 games for it. He charged the guy and cross checked him ( hitting horizontally with your stick) in the face with an obvious intent to injure. Hitting someone with your stick, especially in the face, is not legal because it can cause some bad injuries (knocking out teeth, broken noses, losing eyes etc.).

As far as fighting is concerned, you actually can get suspended if you're involved in multiple fights in a night. Fighting however is not really ever used in an actual attempt to injure someone. It's about honor, sticking up for your teammates or trying to fire up your team. Most fights amount to a bunch of grappling with few to no punches actually landing. I've never heard of any player severely injured after a fight. A bloody nose maybe but nothing incredibly serious.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,428
Both are easy suspensions. Dirty plays that don't belong in the game. The actions themselves can lead to injury... there's only a few things in hockey where they suspend you even with no injury and both kadri and kucherov did a couple of them. Other examples are spearing (literally using your stick as a spear), or using your stick as a baseball bat (two handed slash)
Can't comment on kucherov because I Never saw what he did but Kadris was pretty bad and he'll probably get minimum 3 games for it. He charged the guy and cross checked him ( hitting horizontally with your stick) in the face with an obvious intent to injure. Hitting someone with your stick, especially in the face, is not legal because it can cause some bad injuries (knocking out teeth, broken noses, losing eyes etc.).

As far as fighting is concerned, you actually can get suspended if you're involved in multiple fights in a night. Fighting however is not really ever used in an actual attempt to injure someone. It's about honor, sticking up for your teammates or trying to fire up your team. Most fights amount to a bunch of grappling with few to no punches actually landing. I've never heard of any player severely injured after a fight. A bloody nose maybe but nothing incredibly serious.
So the rules are more about safety than sportsmanship? It seems weirdly counter-intuitive, coming from watching NFL..... in football fighting in between plays will get you easily suspended or ejected, but a particularly nasty or unsafe hit during play only draws a yardage penalty or at worst some kind of monetary fine. I guess I understand the NHL rules since throwing fists is probably not going to hurt someone as bad as a full-speed check from behind against the boards. At the same time though I wonder why fighting isn't as harshly discouraged. I don't really mind or desire to see the fighting eliminated though.

This is the Kucherov hit, just for reference:

 
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So the rules are more about safety than sportsmanship? It seems weirdly counter-intuitive, coming from watching NFL..... in football fighting in between plays will get you easily suspended or ejected, but a particularly nasty or unsafe hit during play only draws a yardage penalty or at worst some kind of monetary fine. I guess I understand the NHL rules since throwing fists is probably not going to hurt someone as bad as a full-speed check from behind against the boards. At the same time though I wonder why fighting isn't as harshly discouraged. I don't really mind or desire to see the fighting eliminated though.

This is the Kucherov hit, just for reference:

It honestly does make more sense to me as I would rather they eliminate unsafe plays that are gonna get someone hurt than plays that could be considered unsportsmanlike.

And again fighting is not really done in an attempt to injure someone. It's more to show team spirit and that you have your teammates back when they get hit hard or something. Actually a common argument against getting rid of fighting is that it would only increase dirty hits as that would be the only way to retaliate against the other team. Fighting allows players to settle their differences in a relatively safe manner.
 
I say this: what Kadri did was entirely his fault, and no one elses. HOWEVER, the refs did let that game get way out of hand. Not excusing it. It's just they failed to set the tone like refs should. They are to blame for the environment, not the actions. That very first debrusk nonsense on kadri, should have been a penalty on debrusk alone. That shit with debrusk on dermott should have been a penalty... that knee by debrusk should have been a 2 and 10 (if he was still being wreckless at that point)

penalties aren't just giving a team advantages, they are setting the standard of acceptability. you don't call things and it's going to get out of hand. And it did. Leafs would have likely still lost, boston would have likely not have done all the stupid shit they did and kadri wouldn't have been so hot headed and stupid like he gets. doesn't mean he wouldn't have done something stupid, just the odds of it would be much lower.

Call both teams fair and strict, don't just call one for petty shit and the other gets away with pretty much everything. Like... fuck. All that does is fuck up the whole game and it's not enjoyable to watch and makes it even more aggravating to play. Dirty shit needs to be stamped out when it happens to prevent it from happening again. That's the point of it all.
I agree

The refs let the game get out of hand, and failed to do their jobs. They let both teams away with things, but let Boston away with a lot of runs and cheap shots. The things you referenced should have been called, but they weren't, and they contributed.

Kadri let Boston get into his head again, and that was their goal. He's a dumbass for doing it. But it was just the tipping point of a poorly called game that got nuts.

DeBrusk is a piece of shit, who was out there trying to injure. I don't feel bad for him. He also tried to milk any time he got hit. Typical Bruins: Don't mind making lots of cheap hit attempts and trying to injure, but if one of their players gets hit -- even if it's a big, clean hit -- they act like their dog was shot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,948
So the rules are more about safety than sportsmanship? It seems weirdly counter-intuitive, coming from watching NFL..... in football fighting in between plays will get you easily suspended or ejected, but a particularly nasty or unsafe hit during play only draws a yardage penalty or at worst some kind of monetary fine. I guess I understand the NHL rules since throwing fists is probably not going to hurt someone as bad as a full-speed check from behind against the boards. At the same time though I wonder why fighting isn't as harshly discouraged. I don't really mind or desire to see the fighting eliminated though.

This is the Kucherov hit, just for reference:

the hits part, for example... has rules. must hit shoulder to shoulder or chest. or hip on hip or whatever. the person you're hitting must have the puck or had the puck within like a second. and you must hit them head on or side to side. you must not leave your feet and cannot use your elbow or target the head. also cannot take many strides before hitting. cannot hit from behind and don't hit someone in a vulnerable position (like if there's room between them and the boards) so hitting outside of those conditions can get you in trouble. a lot of time it's interference, charging, elbowing or hit targeting the head penalties. You can injure players and be fine... as long as the hit is done in the proper conditions.

but there's certain things you can't do. some things they will give you punishment based on the result instead of the action. like jumping off your skates before a hit may not injure the player so it's just a charging penalty. but if they're injured you could get a 5 minute major... or more. It depends on severity. Kucherov and Kadri are special cases where they were suspended for intent rather than the severity... most suspensions aren't like that.

fighting is slowly being removed from the game. you can't even remove your helmet and you can't pick a fight now. fighting on a faceoff can get you removed from the game. so only thing that's allowed is really heat of moment fights.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,428
It honestly does make more sense to me as I would rather they eliminate unsafe plays that are gonna get someone hurt than plays that could be considered unsportsmanlike.
Well yeah, at least in my experience baseball and football have always in part been about setting a good example for all the kids watching......so it makes sense to heavily penalize unsportsmanlike behavior. Hockey is just more pragmatic I suppose.....trying to eliminate behavior that leads to permanent or significant injury, and not worrying if some young viewer gets the wrong idea.

the hits part, for example... has rules. must hit shoulder to shoulder or chest. or hip on hip or whatever. the person you're hitting must have the puck or had the puck within like a second. and you must hit them head on or side to side. you must not leave your feet and cannot use your elbow or target the head. also cannot take many strides before hitting. cannot hit from behind and don't hit someone in a vulnerable position (like if there's room between them and the boards) so hitting outside of those conditions can get you in trouble. a lot of time it's interference, charging, elbowing or hit targeting the head penalties. You can injure players and be fine... as long as the hit is done in the proper conditions.
At least to me, the Kucherov hit looks like a side-to-side check. Is the problem that the player he hit was barely on his knees? Or was that considered a hit from behind?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,948
Well yeah, at least in my experience baseball and football have always in part been about setting a good example for all the kids watching......so it makes sense to heavily penalize unsportsmanlike behavior. Hockey is just more pragmatic I suppose.....trying to eliminate behavior that leads to permanent or significant injury, and not worrying if some young viewer gets the wrong idea.



At least to me, the Kucherov hit looks like a side-to-side check. Is the problem that the player he hit was barely on his knees? Or was that considered a hit from behind?
it would have been because he's on his knees. he's defenseless. more of the concern is the head in that situation.
 
Well yeah, at least in my experience baseball and football have always in part been about setting a good example for all the kids watching......so it makes sense to heavily penalize unsportsmanlike behavior. Hockey is just more pragmatic I suppose.....trying to eliminate behavior that leads to permanent or significant injury, and not worrying if some young viewer gets the wrong idea.



At least to me, the Kucherov hit looks like a side-to-side check. Is the problem that the player he hit was barely on his knees? Or was that considered a hit from behind?
Thing is fighting has always been a part of the game unlike other sports. It's a part of the game at every level as well. I've seen bench brawls involving 12 year olds in my time lol. Fighting is so associated with the game that it's just become an accepted part.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,129
Bennett is a walking charging penalty, the dude cannot stay on his skates when he hits. There was the Cole hit at the end of the 3rd and then this seconds before Cole's penalty in OT

 
Oct 25, 2017
6,428
but there's certain things you can't do. some things they will give you punishment based on the result instead of the action. like jumping off your skates before a hit may not injure the player so it's just a charging penalty.
What does it mean when you say someone jumps off of their skates? What constitutes charging?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,948
What does it mean when you say someone jumps off of their skates? What constitutes charging?
So like if someone jumps off their skates in the act of a hit so you're basically flying at the player, that's charging. Also taking like 5 strides before hitting someone is also charging because you're going full speed into a hit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,129
So like if someone jumps off their skates in the act of a hit so you're basically flying at the player, that's charging. Also taking like 5 strides before hitting someone is also charging because you're going full speed into a hit.
Pretty much. Exploding up and leaving the ice after you make contact is acceptable but leaping before and making a hit would be charging.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,189
I’m glad I missed the entire Leafs game. I don’t think I’d be able to mentally handle that. I spent the night at a comedy show at my friend’s college; it was awesome.

Is there any chance Kadri is suspended only for one game if the Leafs make an argument regarding DeBrusk’s antics in the game? From what I read (I didn’t watch the game) DeBrusk played dirty hockey all night long and didn’t get called. Why didn’t DeBrusk get called is one question, and can the fact that DeBrusk played dirty and never got penalized, can any of that help Kadri receive a less severe suspension?

I feel angry right now. At DeBrusk, at Kadri, at the referees.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,567
I know that pretty much all Leafs fans are pissed off about it, but I did not think that Debrusk knee on knee was intentional. Kadri was trying to avoid the check and jumped sideways, which is what caused his knee to be in a vulnerable spot. If you watch the NBC replay angle(instead of the useless Sportsnet one), you can see that Debrusk didn't stick his knee out and was skating in a straight line at the time of the hit.

Kadri, on the other hand, needed to keep his emotions in check because the Leafs were perfectly capable of tying it up at that point in the game until that hit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,189
User Warned: Derogatory language.
Kadri should be suspended

But ugh I’m fucking disgusted at all the other plays that went unpenalized

Honestly if Toronto loses this series then Shanahan and Dubas should get fucking fired. Fuck them completely because all of this should have been predicted by them. You know the Bruins physically outmatch the Leafs. You know the refs will put away their whistles. And you know that no one on this team other than Kadri will step up to defend anyone. And you fucking know that Kadri isn’t a fighter, is fucking retarded and is going to lose his temper and make some kind of dirty illegal check.

Fuck off. Dubas and Shanahan did nothing to prepare for this. Another year. Another first round match with the Bruins and another suspension for Kadri. Of course Kadri is to blame but there are external factors here that shouldn’t be ignored. And Shanahan and Dubas’s inability to mitigate or account for those external factors is a hallmark of incompetence. Fuck then and fire their asses.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,189
Ugh I could see Kadri getting suspended for the rest of the series. It makes my blood boil that this could happen while DeBrusk himself gets no suspension.

Please, god above, let Toronto win this series.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,631
Really hoping for a Pens win today, if only to quiet the insane Penguins fans I surround myself with.

All I keep hearing is how Murray is garbage and never comes up in the big spots and is going to be let go rather than resigned and how Jarry is the future of the team.

Am I crazy or are they crazy? I can’t tell anymore lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,948
Montresor the Leafs and bruins match up fine physically.

The game was called differently for both teams. No roster decision can account for that. Two of the leafs penalties were non-existent. Third one was super super weak. Then you have Bs elbowing, punching, high sticking without penalty... It's easy to understand why that game looked bad, but blame the refs for that shit.

With that said, none of the goals were even the result of the bruins being better than the Leafs. Goals 1, 2 and 3 were direct results of errors by muzzin and Nylander. 4th was on the Kadri major.

Leafs didn't utilize their speed and their skill and got sucked into the bruins game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,920
Montresor the Leafs and bruins match up fine physically.

The game was called differently for both teams. No roster decision can account for that. Two of the leafs penalties were non-existent. Third one was super super weak. Then you have Bs elbowing, punching, high sticking without penalty... It's easy to understand why that game looked bad, but blame the refs for that shit.

With that said, none of the goals were even the result of the bruins being better than the Leafs. Goals 1, 2 and 3 were direct results of errors by muzzin and Nylander. 4th was on the Kadri major.

Leafs didn't utilize their speed and their skill and got sucked into the bruins game.
I'm sure this report is 100% unbiased and accurate
 
Oct 26, 2017
962
Kadri should get suspended but that wont chamge anything imo.

The Refs need to start taking control of the games. i mean all through the season you want players to respect the rules and emphasize safety. but as soon as the games start to matter the cowards keep the whistles in their pocket.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,631
Hoping for a better 2nd period here. Pens were looking good and a perfectly placed shot by Eberle and yet another giveaway leading to a 2 on 1 undoes everything.

Pens had some good chances too but keep fanning on wide open shots.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,631
Guess I was hoping for too much. Looks like we may once again walk away with a single goal scored.

Crosby line has been completely shut down so far.

And for all the shit Murray has been getting he has kept us in these games. For every soft goal he has allowed he has stopped 5+ odd man rushes.

Pens playing very irresponsibly.