About RSG §1.2.2, capitalization and contraction

Has a discussion already been opened on this subject? If so, please send me back.
These are the exceptions for abbreviations. The Discogs rule requires that after an abbreviation, the next letter be in lower case. This is logical in English because the apostrophe replaces the letter which, without the abbreviation, would be in capital. Example: I'm = I Am, It's = It Is, etc. But in French, the abbreviation always concerns the last letter. Example: Je t'aime d'amour = Je t(e) aime d(e) amour. There should therefore be a fifth exception in RSG §1.2.2 that would concern the French language, in which case it would be allowed to write for a title: Je T'Aime D'Amour and not Je T'aime D'amour. What do you think ?

Une discussion a-t-elle déjà été ouverte à ce sujet ? Si tel est le cas, merci de m'y renvoyer.
Il s'agit des exceptions concernant les abréviations. La règle Discogs impose qu'après une abréviation, la lettre qui suit soit en minuscule. Cela est logique en anglais car l'apostrophe remplace la lettre qui, sans l'abréviation, serait en capitale. Exemple : I'm = I Am, It's = It Is, etc. Mais en français, l'abréviation concerne toujours la dernière lettre. Exemple : Je t'aime d'amour = Je t(e) aime d(e) amour. Il devrait donc y avoir une cinquième exception dans les RSG §1.2.2 qui concernerait la langue française, auquel cas il serait autorisé d'écrire pour un titre : Je T'Aime D'Amour et non pas Je T'aime D'amour. Qu'en pensez-vous ?

Kracan9
Has a discussion already been opened on this subject?

FYI: https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/403468

Edit: https://www.discogs.com/release/8367192-Toi-Je-Taime-Damour/history#latest
My answer there:

An extensive thread about that already exists in the Forum … it was discussed in length. And resp. French: we don't have language-specific rules which only are valid for one language. One rule for all languages … but hey, if you think – try your luck.

Well, I just wonder as Discogs allows the Cyrillic, Japanese or Hebrew alphabets, may also accept the nuances between different languages.
OK, thank you typoman2 for linking the thread.
But when you write : The French language has a variety of contractions, similar to English but mandatory, as in C'est la vie ("That's life"), where c'est stands for ce + est ("that is"). The formation of these contractions is called elision.
You forget one thing: in "That's life", the apostrophe replaces the first letter of the word "Is", which would be in capital if it was not replaced. In French, this is the last letter of the word "Ce" that is replaced and this letter "e" would be in lower case if it was not replaced. That's all the difference, this is simple and very important. You must understand that in "d'amour" (for "de amour"), the last word stays in full letters A-M-O-U-R, so it should keep his initial in capital letter. Like in "That's Life", "That" stays in full letters. If we had to follow the same rules in French, for "D'amour" which is the contraction of "De" and "Amour", we should write "De'mour", which would be correct for Discogs rules but means nothing in French. And I guess it's the same problem in Italian. Anyway Discogs rules are not written in a day, can they still be improved? This is all that is to wish

Kracan9
You forget one thing

No, I haven't. It's just a rule which covers several languages and therefore it can't be perfect for all.
You forget that we can't cover all language differences in these exception rules and that the next thing then would be special rules for German, exceptions for Italian and I'm pretty sure also many others would find things which aren't suitable for their specific grammar.

This topic has been debated (not only once – I remember other threads – but not that explicit as the one I gave you), decided by majority and management.
If you wanna change it you need to find a majority for this (I'm for one am against special rules for every language) and file a Support Request that the existing rules get changed.

My time is limited so please appreciate that I'm not wild about discussing this the umptieth time in detail.
You might use the Forum Search Field above and find more arguments …

Sorry typoman2 I may have expressed myself poorly. I don't want one more exception, I use the term exception only because of the RSG §1.2.2. It may be necessary to understand how contractions work in English before making it a general rule for all languages. The English language use the same way for all English words: it's always the first letter of a word that is replaced by an apostrophe to make a contraction, never in French. In French (or Italian), it's always the last letter of a word. This is a huge difference, I think. As As this could be stated simply and clearly for everybody, could this process (replacing the first letter of a word by an apostrophe when there is a contraction, so the second letter stays in lower case) be clearly explained in the Discogs guidelines so that we do not make any mistakes anymore? That's just the question I ask. ;)

Moreover, in English, we take care to leave a space after a word when the apostrophe replaces the last letter (like in "I'm Comin' Home"), but not in French. Maybe that's why there is a misunderstanding.

Kracan9
Maybe that's why there is a misunderstanding.

If you've read my answer you'd know there is no misunderstanding.

typoman2
It's just a rule which covers several languages and therefore it can't be perfect for all.

I was taught French in school and know the difference.
Please don't ping me anymore, I already said what I think and:

typoman2
My time is limited so please appreciate that I'm not wild about discussing this the umptieth time in detail.

Sorry I don't want to disturb you typoman2, I just ask to the community.
And I also have another question about the nuances between the different language scripts. In English, punctuation never changes, whether simple or double, it always sticks to the precedingword. In French, this punctuation sticks to the preceding word only if it is simple (point or comma), but imposes a space when it is double, like the semicolon, the exclamation mark or the question mark. Discogs allow these nuances or impose to always stick to the preceding word and no matter the language ?

Kracan9
Discogs allow these nuances or impose to always stick to the preceding word and no matter the language ?

If a space has been used on the release before i.e. the exclamation or question mark you can also use the space in the submission form.
Over and out.

I do understand your time is limited typoman2, so please don't bother ;)

Kracan9
it's always the first letter of a word that is replaced by an apostrophe

Just the first? No...

'n' = and (1 letter removed from each end)
n't = not (1 letter removed from middle)
've = have (2 letters removed from beginning)
'll = will (2 letters removed from beginning)
'd = would (4 letters removed from beginning)

or last letter only...

Thinkin'
Goin'
Drinkin'

Kracan9
Has a discussion already been opened on this subject?

many, there was the link given by typoman2 but also more recently https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/758030

I think it may be best to capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction.

This would pretty much cover everything but 'n' and might hopefully cover all languages?

I can't say how much I agree with you. Clearly explained like this, The Lovin' Spoonful - Six O'Clock is no longer an exception. I'll remember. Thanks.

It would justify we write L'Amérique and not L'amérique.

Sorry othall, this example is not very adequate and could have been confusing, Amerique, like America, must be written with a capital initial in any situation. But nevermind, the future is clear enough now. Hats off to Diognes_The_Fox.

I've been searching rules that impose capitals for proper names (when contracted) and didn't find.

As I couldn't find more English examples of contractions implying the elision of the last letter of the first word, apart from O'Clock ...
One last question: How to write ? C'mon Everybody or C'Mon Everybody ? Only one is correct for sure or both ? Ooops, too complicated 😊

Diognes_The_Fox
I think it may be best to capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction.

what about this was mention before? https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/403468?page=1#3742356

Diognes_The_Fox explanation is crystal-clear !

It is contradict what was decided before, as 'clear as rock water' the explain may be.

The Diognes_The_Fox explanation is crystal-clear.

4theLuvOvMusic
what about this was mention before? https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/403468?page=1#3742356

I don't know. I think this might be a slight improvement / simplification? Thoughts?

Kracan9
C'mon Everybody

I would use C'mon. the 'm' isn't the beginning of a new word.

+1
Like it's written on Eddie Cochran - Eddie Cochran LP back cover. Thanks.

Diognes_The_Fox
I think it may be best to capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction.

This would pretty much cover everything but 'n' and might hopefully cover all languages?

Diognes_The_Fox
I don't know. I think this might be a slight improvement / simplification? Thoughts?

We have two comments here, both of which are questions / proposals.

DTF btw did support the current GL in a similar discussion
https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/374821#3591062
The only clear voice I can see agreeing is, of course, the OP, Kracan9

There have been several discussions on this, from just over three years ago this was written

nik
RSG §1.2.2.c.
I think that guideline covers "C'est" ok. The only thing it doesn't cover is "D'Hollywood".

The majority view from all the forum mentions I can find is that, for instance
'C'est' is Correct and 'C'Est' is incorrect

Sorry to ping users who have discussed this over and over, but I recently corrected a sub, my correction was reverted by Kracan9 with the comment

Edit A2, B1 typo according to Forum Topic #759779 Diognes_The_Fox conclusion.

https://www.discogs.com/release/4211559-Alors-Tu-Verras/history#latest

So maybe more opinion is needed here, I've tried to include users from most countries :)
velove
marcelrecords
syke
phallancz
typoman2
ChampionJames (you out there?)
loukash (you have your notifications on)
la-voie-du-sabre
eiki
_jules
Juanfraner
Fauni-Gena
snickersnots
DetroitBootyBass

There is no conclusion in this thread that I can see and RSG §1.2.2.c is still in the guidelines
1.2.2.c.Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

4theLuvOvMusic
It is contradict what was decided before, as 'clear as rock water' the explain may be.

Exactly!

avalon67
1.2.2.c.Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

absolutely

as in:

C'est...
N'est...
J'ai...
D'après...
etc.

exceptions indeed when a word is explicitly capitalized otherwise on the release, eg a proper noun

The fact that Diognes_The_Fox is asking questions and thinking about it (and I might recommend: Read the old threads closely, think hard about it and discuss the repercussions with nik because it's a VERY complicated topic which has to be applied to many languages.) doesn't mean something has changed.

RSG §1.2.2.c is still valid … every Guideline is valid as long it hasn't been changed officially.
As long as I look it up in RSG and the text is like it is … it is valid.
This is a mere discussion whether or not.

C'Est is nonsense … I'm not French but even I know that with my limited French knowledge.
And since when RSG get binned because exactly ONE user is not happy that their subs get changed?

If I may repeat the opinion of Diognes_The_Fox: I think it may be best to capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction.
What is wrong with this line ? Nothing would change for English language and everyone would be happy. No need to declare war...

I also may remind: In all these old discussions several French native speakers have taken part and were for "C'est" as it is written normally. Like la-voie-du-sabre above. I really don't get it that we are discussing the change of an old established Guideline because there's exactly ONE voice against this although many in the old threads including the former database manager (I won't count them all now) have okayed RSG §1.2.2.c.

And NO, not

Kracan9
everyone would be happy.

You would be happy. Ignoring the above mentioned crowd.

to be more precise and accurate, Diognes_The_Fox, RSG §1.2.2.c should be amended as follows:

Abbreviations, contractions, hyphenations and elisions should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

la-voie-du-sabre
Abbreviations, contractions, hyphenations and elisions should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

Yup, and maybe mentioning the subjects as well (as in l'Hollywood, l'Amerique) to make it "crystal clear".

Again and again: This is logical in English because the apostrophe replaces the letter which, without the abbreviation, would be in capital. Example: I'm = I Am, It's = It Is, etc. But in French, the abbreviation always concerns the last letter of the first word. That makes all the difference. And if we follow the guideline, The Lovin' Spoonful - Six O'Clock should be written Six O'clock then. But not and why not ? Because Clock, the second word of the contraction, is still in full letters, like in French for most of the French contractions.

Same thing about The Vogues - Five O'Clock World.

Kracan9
Again and again:

Yeah, and again: It's a Guideline which is for meant for all languages.
This may all be valid for French (even if it's of course written C'est …) but we have to ask ourselves: Will this differentiation between contractions, hyphenations and elisions be comprehensible for users of ALL nations with lack of linguistic knowledge?
IMHO it'll become overcomplicated. Once you have to write You've, once you have to write C'Est.
And if somebody doesn't grasp the difference between contractions and elisions?
I'd say the subject is already hard to grasp, this change would make it even harder.

Edit: typo

typoman2
C'Est is nonsense … I'm not French but even I know that with my limited French knowledge.
And since when RSG get binned because exactly ONE user is not happy that their subs get changed?

Why nonsense? Once you accept first letter of each word has capital, Est is a entire word so C'Est seems logical.
Why "One"?
It would be fine to give real linguist arguments as Kracan9 to show why some entire words would not have capitals.
What suggested Diognes_The_Fox would be the more simple.
Forget who would be happpy or not. That's not a battle but a discussion.

typoman2
Kracan9Again and again:
Yeah, and again: It's a Guideline which is for meant for all languages.
This may all be valid for French (even if it's of course written C'est …) but we have to ask ourselves: Will this differentiation between contractions, hyphenations and elisions be comprehensible for users of ALL nations with lack of linguistic knowledge?
IMHO it'll become overcomplicated. Once you have to write You've, once you have to write C'Est.
And if somebody doesn't grasp the difference between a contraction and an elisions.
I'd say the subject is already hard to grasp, this change would make it even harder.

When I write a sub in a language I don't understand, it's not a problem if someone more competent in this domain correct me.

Somebody please could give an explaination why capitalization of The Lovin' Spoonful - Six O'Clock doesn't follow the guidelines? It would help a lot. For sure. But if this is only considered like an exception, same as for The Vogues - Five O'Clock World, just accept it also for French or Italian languages, which use the same way to make a contraction : most of them consist of an elision of the last letter of the first word, just like in O(f)'Clock ! As simple as that. Why is this a problem? That's the reason why the Diognes_The_Fox suggestion is as short as clever. And The Lovin' Spoonful - Six O'Clock or The Vogues - Five O'Clock World won't be exceptions anymore.

This seems to be a recurring theme in your comments, why do I have to submit according to the guidelines when....
Imagine if we all had that attitude, this sub is incorrect so I'll make mine incorrect too....

Anyway

Kracan9
the last letter of the first word, just like in O(f)'Clock

This is incorrect.
The phrase being shortened is "Of the clock". so the contraction is 'Of the', represented by "o'", Clock is a new word. It's slipped into English usage as " O'Clock", but it should be O' Clock

othall
Once you accept first letter of each word has capital, Est is a entire word so C'Est seems logical.

But why? In French the word is "C'est", or "c'est".
Discogs guidelines tell us it's "C'est".
Why o why do we need to change it? What does it bring to the database, except to cause confusion?

othall
What suggested Diognes_The_Fox would be the more simple.

No, it wouldn't, it would mean having different rules, where currently we have a universal rule.

Kracan9
the Diognes_The_Fox suggestion

So you accept now it's a suggestion, and not as you stated earlier a conclusion?

You say it's a suggestion, let's go for a suggestion. I thought as there was no more other following suggestions since a while, it would be ok to consider it like a conclusion. But as you wish. Maybe a real conclusion would be necessary.

avalon67
The phrase being shortened is "Of the clock". so the contraction is 'Of the', represented by "o'", Clock is a new word. It's slipped into English usage as " O'Clock", but it should be O' Clock

This changes nothing at all, the last word of the contraction (Clock) is still in full letters and, you can take it by any end, that's why the Diognes_The_Fox so called 'suggestion' is so clever and absolutely relevent.

And since you insist

avalon67
In French the word is "C'est", or "c'est".

No, "C'est" is not a word but the contraction of two words : "Cela" and "Est".
In French language, at least.

And, by the way, "L'Hollywood..." is abusive French language.
Because of the aspirated H, which should be correctly written "Le Hollywood...", like in "Le Hibou" or "Le Hamburger" (for a song title). Thank you.

avalon67
But why? In French the word is "C'est", or "c'est".
Discogs guidelines tell us it's "C'est".
Why o why do we need to change it? What does it bring to the database, except to cause confusion?

It's not to change the rules, just to make them clear.
For example, as I already asked without having answer, I've been searching rules that impose capitals for proper names.
Some funny examples that show nothing is clear:
Arc-En-Ciel
Iceberg (2) - Arc-En-Ciel (no capitals on front but capitals on label.
And on this one
Lotti Golden - Motor-Cycle
is the title correct?

avalon67
There is no conclusion in this thread that I can see and RSG §1.2.2.c is still in the guidelines
1.2.2.c.Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

+1

typoman2
Yup, and maybe mentioning the subjects as well (as in l'Hollywood, l'Amerique) to make it "crystal clear".

+1

How pleasant it is to make quotes without reading and making answer to what is written above lately.

typoman2

I'd say the subject is already hard to grasp, this change would make it even harder.

+1

Why the subject would be so hard to grasp ? Sorry, it's all the opposite.
The Diognes_The_Fox suggestion ("think it may be best to capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction"), that suggestion is actually adapted to any case of contraction. Any case.

Furthermore, that would change nothing to all the previous or further English submissions. Absolutely nothing.
And this would be the only way for the "O'Clock" exception to follow the guideline, at last. Sorry again. What would be so wrong with that?

If the RSG §1.2.2.c evolves and becomes more precise, can't there be a kind of tolerance for all the previous submissions, date as proof, to avoid having to correct everything from the beginning?
Thanks for your understanding.

Diognes_The_Fox
I think it may be best to capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction.

For the record, I also support this change to the RSG §1.2.2.c. Under the premises of RSG §1.2.1 "First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized" it's completely logic, easy to understand and it works in every language.

Examples:

I'm = I Am
It's = It Is
Don't = Do Not
We'll = We will
C'mon = Come On
O'Clock = Of The Clock
Rock'n'Roll = Rock And Roll

C'Est = Cela Est
Je T'Aime D'Amour = Je Te Aime De Amour
P'tit = Petit
D'Enfer = De Enfer
L'Interview = Le Interview
L'Hollywood = Le Hollywood

If RSG §1.2.2.c in it's current for is really hard to grasp it's because it's neither simple nor logic. And for this very reason not respected on a large number of French releases. For the record, I am a French speaker, although not native.

IbLeo
If RSG §1.2.2.c in it's current for is really hard to grasp it's because it's neither simple nor logic. And for this very reason not respected on a large number of French releases.

Have to disagree, it's quite simple and makes sense in French too.

avalon67
In French the word is "C'est", or "c'est".
Discogs guidelines tell us it's "C'est".
Why o why do we need to change it? What does it bring to the database, except to cause confusion?

As a non native sometime French speaker (ie when I've been in France for a few days and it slowly reappears in my memory) it makes no sense at all having to write C'Est, it looks wrong, it's not correct French and the guidelines tell me it's wrong.

Kracan9
This changes nothing at all,

Your opinion. I disagree

If "C'Est" is nonsense, then "O'Clock" is also nonsense with regards to the guidelines. I agree to say "Five O'clock World" is as nonsense as "Au Nom De L'amour", "Rock'n'roll" or "Rock! Rock! Rock'n'roll!". So, frankly speaking, why it's so hard to admit that the Diognes_The_Fox suggestion, which is simple, short and easy to understand, solves all situations ?

avalon67
As a non native sometime French speaker (ie when I've been in France for a few days and it slowly reappears in my memory) it makes no sense at all having to write C'Est, it looks wrong, it's not correct French and the guidelines tell me it's wrong.

If I write "C'est La Vie" it's not correct French so I guess it hurts you

avalon67
Have to disagree,

That's your opinion, and I respect it, just as you respect mine. I am simply stating my point-of-view, as requested above by Diognes_The_Fox. And I will happily expand on it.

avalon67
it makes no sense at all having to write C'Est, it looks wrong, it's not correct French and the guidelines tell me it's wrong.

Writing "Il Y A De La Joie" makes no sense, looks wrong and is incorrect in French (it's "Il y a de la joie"). Nevertheless the guidelines tells me it's correct. So I don't see why "C'Est" could not be correct according to the guidelines: It would be completely logical to write "C'Est" as a contraction of "Cela Est". That's exactly why I wrote:

IbLeo
Under the premises of RSG §1.2.1 "First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized" it's completely logic, easy to understand and it works in every language.

Capitalization rules don't produce results that are correct in ANY language: not English, not French, not Spanish. We don't need more changes or exceptions. -1 to the suggestion.

Fauni-Gena
We don't need more changes or exceptions. -1 to the suggestion.

I couldn't agree more.

The Diognes_The_Fox suggestion eliminates all the exceptions or avoids asking to be corrected in order to follow the guidelines all the English titles with "O'Clock" or "Rock'n'Roll" in the database. Among certainly a few other exceptions.

Almost a month now without any other thought? This is strange.

So, if we follow the current guideline about contraction (RSG §1.2.2.c), used for a title, a track title or a group name, between "O'Clock" and "O'clock", which one is correct? A clear answer would be welcome. Thanks.

Or maybe O'Clock is an exception? But, like Fauni-Gena says: we don't need exceptions.
So if O'Clock is uncorrect, there are a lot of corrections to do in the database, aren't they?
Unless... the suggestion of Diognes_The_Fox
("it may be best to capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction")
is finally heard and understood.

Fauni-Gena
Capitalization rules don't produce results that are correct in ANY language: not English, not French, not Spanish.

All the opposite. And you forget Italian language as well. The Diognes_The_Fox suggestion produces correct result in ANY language. No doubt about it. Even in English! If "O'Clock" is an exception, thanks to this suggestion, it would not be one anymore. Fauni-Gena and el-duro should certainly be among the first to be satisfied. Thanks.

Honestly, it's not broken. Don't fix it.

Fauni-Gena
Honestly, it's not broken. Don't fix it.

It's a bit smoky. It would enlighten me more if you answered the question above about O'Clock. Thanks.

Kracan9
It would enlighten me more if you answered the question above about O'Clock. Thanks.

There isn't a clear answer for that, sorry. I use O'clock which, while technically incorrect, is commonly used in written English as well.

Fauni-Gena
Kracan9It would enlighten me more if you answered the question above about O'Clock. Thanks.
There isn't a clear answer for that, sorry. I use O'clock which, while technically incorrect, is commonly used in written English as well.

OK, thanks. So O'Clock is not an exception. Unfortunately, when I select O'clock in the database, the majority, if not everything, of what arises is O'Clock. I can only find Okain - O'clock but there is also Okain - O'Clock. So which one is correct according to RSG §1.2.2.c ? Okain - O'clock or Okain - O'Clock ? Thanks for your answer.

Kracan9
So which one is correct according to RSG §1.2.2.c ? Okain - O'clock or Okain - O'Clock ? T

Trivia. Not a terribly important issue.

Yes, there are many errors in the database. We should be fixing them and not allowing for them. That's the same argument I made in your thread trying to change RSG 6,10.

Fauni-Gena
Yes, there are many errors in the database. We should be fixing them and not allowing for them. That's the same argument I made in your thread trying to change RSG 6,10.

Thanks Fauni-Gena for your reply but it doesn't answer to the question : which one is correct? The first one or the second one? I am a little bit lost here, so a clear answer would be very welcome.

As far as I can see with the more than 25,000 examples of O'Clock already in the database, the huge majority uses O'Clock and, between Okain - O'clock and Okain - O'Clock, for instance, which have been both voted Correct for five years now —how do you explain that? —, it seems that this capitalization question in contraction is left to the appreciation of the submitter. So it should be better to follow more wisely the Diognes_The_Fox suggestion which is adapted to English, as for O'Clock, and to all European languages using the same alphabet as well.
Any thoughts would be welcome. Thanks.

Kracan9
which have been both voted Correct for five years now —how do you explain that?

do not take correct votes too seriously on this site, many vote with no idea what they are doing when voting, and many just blindly vote things correct without checking, and some just miss some things when voting.

4theLuvOvMusic
Kracan9which have been both voted Correct for five years now —how do you explain that?

do not take correct votes too seriously on this site, many vote with no idea what they are doing when voting, and many just blindly vote things correct without checking, and some just miss some things when voting.

OK but it still doesn't answer to the question about, between Okain - O'clock and Okain - O'Clock, which one is correct, according to RSG §1.2.2.c? If it is the first one, which would make sense, why there is so much O'Clock in the database without disturbing anyone? O'Clock's contraction works in exactly the same way as contractions in many European languages using the same alphabet and that's why the Diognes_The_Fox suggestion, as short as precise, should fix everything. Why deny it?
So let's stop beating around the bush, as they say in English, and please give a real answer. Thanks.

Edit: typo

Kracan9
OK but it still doesn't answer to the question about, between Okain - O'clock and Okain - O'Clock, which one is correct, according to RSG §1.2.2.c?

Both? Ever thought of that?
The scans for Okain - O'clock are not very legible but I think to decifer that "clock" is written in lower case.
For Okain - O'Clock we have the Beatport page http://m.beatport.com/release/900820 as reference and they wrote Clock with a capital C.
So both follow the passage "The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release".

In means of use of English and RSG the writing "O'clock" would be the correct one following RSG §1.2.2.c and "The New Shorter Oxford Dictionary On Historical Principles" (Edited by Lesley Brown – Clarendon Press · Oxford) as reference work for modern English and it's history – as they define "o'clock" as [Contr. of of the clock].

Instead of just stirring the pot you might look at the releases in question and the scans and sources in detail and try to grasp the guideline. But that wouldn't be of course in line with your agenda and too much work – corresponding to the EP thread where others have done most of the research for valid refences and you just talking. Easier to make one search and then generalize. And for the record: I also still oppose the change of this guideline.
And please, again: no pinging. I prefer to make edits and correct data instead of being drawn into your schemes and making politics. Thanks.

Sorry, typoman2, it's anything. Your post is very complicated, all the opposite of the Diognes_The_Fox suggestion, which tries at least to propose a solution, simple and effective. What is the problem, in the end? If the purpose is only to stay put and never change, you are in the right direction. It's not mine and sorry, the database state over the years needs us to consider what's going wrong. Maybe the guidelines should reconsider too. For now, the guidelines go to one direction while the database is more and more messy. What are your solutions to fix it?

Kracan9
For now, the guidelines go to one direction

Yes, one direction. The iron principle to follow the "as on release" doctrine.
And that means cat #'s as on release and not what's more convenient for label owners, RSG §1.2.2.c dependant on what's on release etc.
And even with change – the passage "The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release" would stay. And that means again most cases with upper and lower case used on release would end up as "C'est" – because you don't write C'Est in French. And again I have to repeat myself: There will never be a guideline which satisfy everybody in every language.
We don't standardize – Discogs otherwise would be better off to use using scanning techniques and automated text recognition, that's exactly why humans with functioning brains are needed.

And now for the last time:

typoman2
And please, again: no pinging. I prefer to make edits and correct data instead of being drawn into your schemes and making politics. Thanks.

I don't fancy a dialogue with you. I stated my opinion and that should suffice. Take it or leave it.

You mix everything: and in French, we don't write C'Est La Vie, neither. So it has nothing to do with the subject and the "as on release" doctrine neither.
However you don't answer the last question: since the database is more and more messy, what are your solutions to fix it? The rest, as you say, is just a fancy dialogue.

typoman2
There will never be a guideline which satisfy everybody in every language.

That's the point. At least the DTF suggestion goes to this direction, trying to satisfy everybody in every language. Except you do not want it. In short, a kind of arrogance and self-satisfaction.

Kracan9
However you don't answer the last question: since the database is more and more messy, what are your solutions to fix it?

My solution is to get some work done and edit incorrect submissions instead blabber here all day.
I'm out now. Thank you.

Kracan9
Except you do not want it. In short, a kind of arrogance and self-satisfaction.

This type of behavior is not acceptable here. Please adjust your approach to our community and this database.

Kracan9
OK but it still doesn't answer to the question about, between Okain - O'clock and Okain - O'Clock, which one is correct, according to RSG §1.2.2.c? If it is the first one, which would make sense, why there is so much O'Clock in the database without disturbing anyone?

maybe it is not 'disturbing' anyone because this is not something that affects the actual release data? It also does not affect searchability, it is not incorrect spelling, so why would anyone be 'disturbed' really? There are many more actually 'disturbing' things in the database that people are rightful 'disturbed' about, do a search of how many releases are marked needs changes, that is really 'disturbing'....

I agree with you and I even used other tougher words to tell it. But this topic is about contraction (RSG §1.2.2.c). Diognes_The_Fox suggests a small adding to this guideline which is ("to capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction") and which would erase any problem and would be suitable to any language in the world that uses same alphabet. As simple as that and no need pinging anymore.

I think the suggestion made by Diognes_The_Fox would be a great addition to RSG §1.2.2..

"Capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction."

I submit many french language release and there's still a lot of confusion around the concept of "Capitalizing Each Word Of The Title".

In french, "Est" is a word. So we need to capitalize the "E" in "C'Est". With this directive, "C'Est" would be the right way to write it, and would still be consistent with RSG §1.2.1.

So if there is a vote, you can count me !

To summarize the purpose of opening this thread straying in any sense (sorry):

RSG §1.2.2.c is rather confusing and the first part "Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter" doesn't bring anything to RSG §1.2.1 that already says "the First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized".

IMHO RSG §1.2.2.c should be removed and replaced by, not an exception but, an adding about contraction as suggested by Diognes_The_Fox, suggestion which is logic, easy to understand and suitable to any language: "Capitalize the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction."

In this way, a lot of submissions including O'Clock in this typo already in the database would no longer be Entirely Incorrect in relation to RSG §1.2.2.c.

edit: more English (I hope)

It would resolve problems for:
Don Everly - Brother Jukebox (Juke-box?)
Jean Michel Jarre* - Rendez-Vous (Rendez-vous?)
Lotti Golden - Motor-Cycle (Motor-cycle ?)
Asgard (5) - Tradition & Renouveau (Les Landes D'harou?)

And it would be easier to understand why the typo of Johnny* - Retiens La Nuit is logically correct in relation to RSG §1.2.1 :

A3: Nous Quand On S'Embrasse = Nous Quand On S(e) Embrasse (without contraction)

But

A5: Sam'di Soir = Sam(e)di Soir (without contraction)

Kracan9
To summarize the purpose (...)

Very well summarized, and for the record, I still support 100% the proposal.

No development efforts are required, it would resolve the current mess on French-language releases and have very little impact on other languages - at least those I know of. And in English, it would finally make "O'Clock" correct!

Same rules as in english or nothing, too many rules kill the rules.

Same rules as in english ? You mean like for O'Clock, for example ?

"First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized" is a good rule.

This has been discussed over and over again year in year out, nik has always decided to leave as is and declared that your bete noir is fine.
The first letter in a contraction is capitalised.
Easy to remember, worked for years. We don't need more exceptions.
It really makes no sense to introduce an exception which is opposite to the way it's written in the real world ;-)

www-the-shop-fr
Same rules as in english or nothing, too many rules kill the rules.

+1

othall
"First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized" is a good rule.

+1

avalon67
The first letter in a contraction is capitalised.

So what about examples (there are many more) I show one day ago?

www-the-shop-fr
Same rules as in english or nothing, too many rules kill the rules.

othall
"First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized" is a good rule.

Yes - this is exactly what is proposed: A single rule that works for all languages with no need for exceptions (contrarily to today): Extending the "First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized" to apply to contractions by capitalizing the letters in a contraction that would be capitalized if the words were not in a contraction. It can't be more logical and easy to remember.

The more I think about it, the more I like DTF's suggestion.

Thank you IbLeo for this kind of fresh air, because I just wonder who is pinging now.

Kracan9
Thank you IbLeo for this repeating what I say.

Fixed

avalon67
Easy to remember, worked for years. We don't need more exceptions.
It really makes no sense to introduce an exception which is opposite to the way it's written in the real world ;-)

And now who talks about exception again ? No exception, we all agree with that. O'Clock is an exception ? With DTF's suggestion, no more exception at all. Sorry to repeat it but we're only talking about a simple adding to RSG §1.2.1 and nothing else. What's wrong with that ?

avalon67
Kracan9Thank you IbLeo for this repeating what I say.

Fixed

Oh no ! Not again. Help !

avalon67
Kracan9Thank you IbLeo for this repeating what I say.

Fixed

OK avalon67 you are right, my message to IbLeo should have been a private one, it was not an argument. But that was just another way of saying +1, as everyone does here although it is true that it was not necessary this time. So let's be reasonable and put our arguments forward, that's what this forum is for. What are your new ones ?
Sorry but IMHO "C'est" is not ok, or what is this rule that says "C'est" and "O'Clock" are both correct ? And don't tell me it's because we don't write "C'Est" in French, I can tell you we don't write "C'Est La Vie" in French neither.

Kracan9
But that was just another way of saying +1, as everyone does here

So you were, effectively, confirming your agreement, with something you'd already said?
That's just like me giving a +1 to someone quoting me.
Pointless, like most of your posts which just say the same thing in various long winded and twisted ways.

Anyway....

Kracan9
What are your new ones ?

I don't really need any 'new' ones
You are repeating the same things over and over. There are mistakes everywhere in the db, if users can't read the guidelines, why change them to encompass these mistakes?
What should we do about these?
KYLESA, KIDS SEE GHOSTS, All About Magic records, TANZ89, BREK'M'PERE, , Chuck LEE (2)
all created because users didn't read / understand the the guidlines, why change them to encompass these mistakes?

RSG §1.2.2.c
Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release
So 'It is', contracted becomes 'It's' first letter of the word capitalised, none others, just as 'Ce est' becomes 'C'est', first letter of the word capitalised, none others. On discogs a capitalisation is treated as a word, much as it is considered in many online dictionaries and many English language sites. A contraction is also considered to be a word shortened from two other words in many articles, which answers your never ending quoting of O'Clock.
As I explained to you as well, nik has ok'd O'Clock.

There are always going to be exceptions in a project like this, but the fewer the better.

Kracan9
And now who talks about exception again ? No exception, we all agree with that.

On this point you're being obviously disingenuous. Where has anyone defending the guidelines as they are said they agree with that? Is this how you argue...twisting what others have said to support your argument?

Kracan9
Sorry but IMHO "C'est" is not ok,

IMHO, and that of the database manager and others, it's fine and it is how the natives would write it..

Kracan9
I can tell you we don't write "C'Est La Vie" in French neither.

And we don't write Such Is Life in English either. That was decreed many years ago, we're stuck with it and won't be changed. But you want to introduce more ways of recording information which is alien to those who speak the language.

If despite the rigor of the guidelines, we need nik to say "C'est" is ok but "O'Clock" is ok too to allow us to continue to submit, excuse me to say that it means that these guidelines are not clear.

For the record, let's recall that "C'Est" is the contraction of two words: "Cela" and "Est", which gives "Ce̸l̸a̸'Est", and "O'Clock" is the contraction of three words: "Of", "The" and "Clock", which gives "Of̸ ̸T̸h̸e̸ ̸ ̸'Clock". It is clear that in these two cases of contraction, the last word remains intact and, logically, must keep its first letter in capital according to RSG §1.2.1. No doubt about it. So why one is ok, but not the other one ? That is the question.

IMHO, I think that DTF understood this very well and that's why, I suppose, he proposes to simplify the subject in order to eliminate any exception, so this problem of contraction could be very clear for everyone. It would be so simple that I don't even understand why there is a problem. And especially since it does not change anything in English.

othall
It would resolve problems for:
Don Everly - Brother Jukebox (Juke-box?)

Juke-Box is wrong under current rules - it should be Juke-box. With the proposed change, Juke-Box would become correct as it´s a contraction of Juke and Box.

othall
Jean Michel Jarre* - Rendez-Vous (Rendez-vous?)

Rendez-Vous is wrong under current rules - it should be Rendez-vous. With the proposed change, Rendez-Vous would become correct as it´s a contraction of Rendez and Vous.

othall
Lotti Golden - Motor-Cycle (Motor-cycle ?)

Motor-Cycle is wrong under current rules - it should be Motor-cycle. With the proposed change, Motor-Cycle would become correct as it´s a contraction of Motor and Cycle.

othall
Asgard (5) - Tradition & Renouveau (Les Landes D'harou?)

Les Landes D'Harou is wrong under current rules - it should be Les Landes D'harou. With the proposed change, D'Harou would become correct as it´s a contraction of De and Harou. Same thing for J'Ai Mon Ami Sous Les Brandebourgs, L'Alouette Est Sur La Branche, D'Ou Venez-Vous Belle and Le Lac D'Argent. So 5 of the 10 titles on this album are wrongly written according to current rules and would become correct with the proposes change.

IMHO all these "mistakes" demonstrate how the proposed change makes so much more sense than the current rule.

Sorry if I am repeating myself :)

I've never heard such illogical reasoning.

Change the speed limit on the roads and we can all drive at 80mph?
Legalise marijuana to reduce overcrowding in jails?

Excellent ;-)

Juke-box is a hyphenation, btw, not a contraction.

In English, the word "Isn't" is written just so.
In French, the word "C'est" is written just so.

Why the desire to change this?
"Abbreviations etc should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as; n release......"

It's quite easy

avalon67
I've never heard such illogical reasoning.

Yay, +1
Especially reasoning and speculating as if the part "The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release" would be deleted together with the addition. First and foremost we are obliged to follow the release. Not some clever ideas which would make most now correct French subs with one imprudent RSG change "Need Changes" …

If it's L'Amour on release it stays, if it's L'AMOUR or L'amour it's L'amour … where's the problem?
It won't be L'Amour in all cases anyway (AOR) so what exactly becomes easier? You have to check the original release this way or that way …

avalon67
I've never heard such illogical reasoning.

That's what they said in the Middle Age about people who claimed the earth is round.

avalon67
In English, the word "Isn't" is written just so.
In French, the word "C'est" is written just so.

You say some people are repeating but it's as an evidence you didn't understand in english the secord word don't begin with its first letter, in french, second word begins with it's first letter

avalon67
Why the desire to change this?
"Abbreviations etc should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as; n release......" .

1.2.2.c.Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

So the rule is for hyphenation and Les Landes D'Harou is contraction no?
It's not to change the rules but to adapt them.
So it would work for common and proper names.
For example, Harou is common or proper?

othall


So the rule is for hyphenation and Les Landes D'Harou is contraction no?
It's not to change the rules but to adapt them.
So it would work for common and proper names.
For example, Harou is common or proper?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, I thought the rule was hyphenations and contractions.

Also, read the guideline again, it mentions "The rest of the word's", not "The second word".

Yes it concern hyphenations and contractions.
Most examples I show were for hyphenations
About contractions, it should solve the problem when second word is a proper name.
For example, what do you think about this title: Isabelle* - La Journée D'Isabelle?
Would you write it La Journée D'isabelle ?
According to your logic, you should.

Hyphenation, contraction, the result is the same. When it comes to a word, if this word remains whole, the first letter must be capitalized, and no matter whether it is in a contraction or hyphenated. It's just mandatory according to RSG §1.2.1. "The First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized". Please keep this in mind and don't complicate. A little common sense does not hurt. And it's not because no one has reacted for years that a dubious practice must become a rule.
Don't you realize that RSG §1.2.2.c is so smoky that only few people understand it ? Especially when we have to talk about exception to this convoluted rule like O'Clock, for example... When a rule is so convoluted that it is followed by very little, it's better to fix it, don't you think ?