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Automatic Emergency Braking Failure, the Movie

Discussion in 'Model 3: Driving Dynamics' started by Wingsy, Jul 23, 2019 at 4:06 AM.

  1. Wingsy

    Wingsy Member

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    This is the dash cam movie for the posting I made last week. I held off posting this until I heard back from Tesla, but it appears they don't want to talk to me about it. I'm posting this so everyone can see what happens if you rely too much on its collision avoidance software. It can fail you when you need it the most, so pay attention at ALL times. In this case Autopilot did just fine for an hour of driving, luring me into a false sense of security. So much so that I dozed off for a few seconds. (Autopilot detected this and said "Now we got him!" and steered me right into the barrels. J/K.) With all the phantom braking events I have experienced it does seem like it could have offered a little beep or something. But nothing. Hit the barrels at 75mph. I, being human, failed to maintain vigilance. Just like the software did.
     
    • Informative x 3
    • Funny x 2
  2. Wennfred

    Wennfred Member

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    Wow, do you have pictures of the front?

    Fred
     
  3. ewoodrick

    ewoodrick Active Member

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    Yep, no, I believe that it was functioning as intended. at 75 mph, the rules are different than at 25 mph.

    And instead of complaining, may celebrate the fact that the autopilot was able to maintain driving of the car while you were asleep!! The option in many other cars would have seen you running into the semi or the guard rails, flipping over and causing all sorts of collateral damage and death.
     
    • Like x 9
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  4. Saghost

    Saghost Well-Known Member

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    AEB in its current form is intended to keep you from running into other cars.

    Right now Autopilot doesn't have any protection against road damage, debris, or objects on the road that aren't cars.

    Hopefully that'll change soon, but right now it'll happily run into a cone or a deer. The only car I know of that won't is a Subaru with eyesight - and that will only stop short of impact up to about 40 mph.
     
  5. Wingsy

    Wingsy Member

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    It is also intended to keep you from hitting a human, a bicycle and a motorcycle. Those are the things mentioned in the manual as examples. They can't list *everything* that can get in your way. 3 of those 4 examples are metallic objects that can be seen with radar (and cameras), but the human object can only be detected with the cameras. So if it can detect a non-metallic object the size of a small child then I would expect it to recognize an object the size of a 50-gallon barrel (also non-metallic). Is this an unreasonable expectation?
     
  6. Wingsy

    Wingsy Member

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    I must have missed that. Can you show me where they state that AEB has reduced functionality at higher speeds? I thought Autopilot was good up to 90mph.
     
    • Funny x 1
  7. jjrandorin

    jjrandorin Another BMW convert

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    Its an unreasonable expectation to think that you can fall asleep (even for a short time) in a vehicle you are driving at 75 MPH and be surprised about damage, instead of being happy to be alive.
     
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  8. Wingsy

    Wingsy Member

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    You could easily miss the damage that it caused. Slight deformation of the front bumper, dent in the hood that's only visible at the right angle, destroyed mirror and scratches where the mirror slammed into the driver's door. There was also some damage under the car, cracking a coolant hose which caused a leak in the battery coolant (lost 3 of its 6 gallon coolant capacity in 2 days).
     
  9. Wingsy

    Wingsy Member

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    Don't put words in my mouth. I never said or implied that falling asleep goes without consequences. I'm saying that I expect AEB to recognize something the size of a 50-gallon drum when it can recognize something the size of a small human.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  10. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    So you came out lucky. Take that minor damage as a learning experience that you need to follow the instructions that are given to you when you operate a car.
     
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  11. mswlogo

    mswlogo Active Member

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    Right. And the car is supposed to come to a stop in the middle of the highway construction zone while he finishes his nap. Was the car suppose to play some nap time music as well.
     
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  12. Msjulie

    Msjulie Active Member

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    @Wingsy Thanks for posting. Glad the outcome wasn't worse and for the reminder that the software, regardless of name, is still a driver assist not a replacement
     
  13. jjrandorin

    jjrandorin Another BMW convert

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    #13 jjrandorin, Jul 23, 2019 at 5:22 AM
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019 at 5:28 AM
    Im not putting words in your mouth, I am answering your question which was "do I have unreasonable expectations" and its my opinion that you do, because you seem to expect that the system is a replacement for you paying attention. Whether the system detected the barrel or not, its your responsibility to do so, not the systems. Even though it has pedestrian detection etc, that doesnt mean its impossible to run over a person.

    Its my opinion that your expectation of the system in general is unreasonable. You seem to be upset that the system did not detect the barrel, and not happy that nothing else happened to you while you fell asleep at the wheel. Its entirely possible that if you DIDNT have the system active, something far worse could have happened, but you seem to be focused on damage to your car.

    EDIT: I also have to give kudos to you for being willing to post the fact that you fell asleep, knowing that this was a contributor to what happened. Many people in your circumstances would have tried to avoid that fact, since they would not want to accept responsibility for that action.

    You are taking responsibility for that (at least it sounds like it to me) so it seems like you know this is your fault, not the cars fault. Saying that, you still seem to be saying "why didnt the car protect me from myself, is that an unreasonable expecation?" and its my position that, right now, with current software and abilities of the car, it is somewhat unreasonable.
     
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  14. Wingsy

    Wingsy Member

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    Thank you Julie for understanding the purpose of my posting, and not taking this opportunity to scold me for not paying attention to my driving (which I already admitted to). It seems some people thrill at the chance to criticize rather than to address the intent of the posting.

    The intent being the advice, with a demonstration, that one should pay attention at ALL times... like I said in my original.
     
    • Like x 2
  15. lolder

    lolder Member

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    I have had the EAP change lanes for barrels at 40 mph. Did the OP have AP or EAP?

    The thread title is also AEB "failure" implying a fault in the system when there apparently was none.

    Every time someone posts a thread with titles like these, someone else decides not to buy the car.
     
  16. Wingsy

    Wingsy Member

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    FSD with version 3 hardware
     
  17. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    #17 Az_Rael, Jul 23, 2019 at 5:44 AM
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019 at 5:55 AM
    Not everyone is familiar with the limitations of the system, so this is a good reminder for everyone to never let your guard down. As far as the manual here are some of the relevant sections:

    AEB is only designed to reduce your speed not stop the car at highway speeds.
    “If driving 35 mph (56 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 30 mph (50 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 26 mph (40 km/h).”

    Also, with regards to pedestrians the manual says this:
    Warning: Although Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is capable of detecting pedestrians and cyclists, never depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to adequately slow Model 3 down for them. Always watch the road in front of you and be prepared to take corrective action at all times. Failure to do so can result in serious injury or death.

    And in regards to Autosteer use in construction zones:
    “Do not use Autosteer on city streets, in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present.”


    And “Collision Avoidance features cannot always detect all objects, vehicles, bikes, or pedestrians, and you may experience unnecessary, inaccurate, invalid, or missed warnings for many reasons”

    On this last one, I had the car not warn me at all recently when a pickup truck almost sideswiped me while I was using AP. I had to take evasive action myself. So the system is not perfect by any means
     
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  18. Wingsy

    Wingsy Member

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    This is what I'm saying, and I'll say it again: I expect AEB to recognize something the size of a 50-gallon drum when it can recognize something the size of a small human. THAT is what I expect.
     
  19. alcibiades

    alcibiades Member

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    Weird, the OP is clearly saying:

    1. I screwed up.
    2. When I screwed up, I ran into a bunch of barrels.
    3. Running into the barrels was my fault, but it made me aware of what appears to be a limitation of the Tesla AEB system and this has given me concern about Tesla's AEB's overall function.
    4. Rightly or wrongly, I expect Tesla's safety systems to be able to detect and slowdown objects of this size.

    But for some reason, the replies are mostly:

    SHAME SHAME SHAME!
     
    • Like x 3
  20. Puddles

    Puddles Member

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    Thanks for posting. Informative. Also brave. Not everyone will be kind to you about this, but try not to feed the trolls.
     

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