why are the stars seen to be in the same place after six months of traveling around the sun. Answer:

they aren’t. the stars move all over the sky as the seasons change.

Then, since earth has to be a spinning ball going around the sun, what holds the ocean water to the ball?

probably the same thing that keeps any ball together. how come you don’t disintegrate when you turn around?

here’s a better question: why is there a curved horizon? why do soap bubbles form and float? why don’t baseballs fall apart in the air?

Enter Freemason Isaac Newton with gravity, a mysterious force unobserved anywhere else in nature.

try jumping off a roof, you’ll experience gravity in short order.

Then when 19th century experiments were unable to prove any motion of the earth

it’s been proven for the six thousand years of civilization and by life itself. all motion is relative: I could say the Earth is perfectly still and everything else is moving around it in some pattern. when I drive on a highway i’m really standing still, but the world speeds up. Coepernicus and Galileo and the Church were all right together, they were both right. Everything is relative to something else or it can’t be seen by comparison.

enter Jew Albert Einstein with a theory about relative motion and space time curvature that no one can understand.

everyone understands E=MC2, but it must be the Jews anyway

How can the sun “rotate around” a flat earth? LOL

The same way almost all Copernicanists still speak of the sun “coming up” or “going down”, i. e. it’s a figure of speech. The sun does rotate, after all – above a planar Earth, but within the firmament.

And why is the Copernican system “Masonic”? Both Copernicus and Galileo were devout Catholics.

If they would have been “devout Catholics”, they wouldn’t have created their systems in the first place. The essence of masonry (= judeo-satanism for the goyim) is the corruption of the natural and divine order: “Instead of on a motionless Earth at the center of the universe you are only living on an insignificant speck of dust shaped like a sphere, circling a central fire within a vast, meaningless emptiness, goy!” (Aristarchos, Pythagoras, Galileo, Copernicus, Newton).

That’s why the hypothetical angle between the equator and Earth’s “axis of rotation” is purported to be 66,6 degrees; that’s why Earth’s “orbital speed” is purported to be 66.6k mph; that’s why the polar circles are purported to be located at 66.6° N and S latitude.* There are many of those number games Masons love to play.

* https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/earthfact.html (you have to do some conversions, e.g. between km/h and mph)

Do you really believe the bible texts, 2000-3000 years old, are the last word in observable reality and quantifiable science?

Yes. Take your appeal to novelty and shove it.

I believe Eratosthenes used geometry/trigonometry. He knew that at the Summer solstice, a vertical pole at a certain town left no shadow. By measuring the length of the shadow at a location some 500 stade south and regarding the earth as a globe, he arrived at his figure.

The important part being, of course, “regarding the earth as a globe”. His computations assuming a spherical Earth and a much larger and distant Sun work exactly the same way as assuming a planar Earth and a small and near Sun instead. It’s a huge misconception, one usually fostered by the public school system, that Eratosthenes somehow “proved” that Earth is a sphere, or even set out to do so in the first place. Same as with Copernicus – people should actually read the sources (fragments in Eratosthenes’ case) they love to proffer.

So let’s make this very simple: the sunset. Impossible with a flat earth, right?

Not at all. Don’t be deceived by language – “the sun setting” is just a figure of speech, after all. What you – we – are actually perceiving is a luminous sphere gradually getting smaller and disappearing at the horizon, an observation completely in line with the classical cosmological model. From an observer’s point of view, a huge and far away sun “setting behind the horizon” is functionally identical to a small and near sun “disappearing into the night”.

You’re WRONG. The evidence that this was real is LAUGHABLE. Check out Jim Fezter’s and We didn’t Go to the Moon Either and a 2001 Fox Documentary “Did we really go to the moon?” which is censored by You Tube so you have to type in all of the words plus 2001 FOX. YT’s censorship alone should tell you you are WRONG.

“And you do know, don’t you, that different times of daylight in different parts of the world is explained just as well by a sun rotating around the earth, just as it appears to do?”

How can the sun “rotate around” a flat earth? LOL

And why is the Copernican system “Masonic”?

Both Copernicus and Galileo were devout Catholics.

Do you really believe the bible texts, 2000-3000 years old, are the last word in observable reality and quantifiable science?

So so true. I thought that the flat earth comments here are expressly designed for the purpose of making a mockery of Kevin’s well constructed argument about the Mooning of America.

Well stated. The goal of the American educational system is to teach people … until they are no longer able to think.

Another thing to consider from your perspective as a Muslim convert: going to the moon represents a conquest of the Divine Feminine (represented by the moon and manifested most clearly in Judaism and Islam) and an arrogant assertion of the primacy of the Masculine (represented by the Sun and manifested in Christianity).

Really well written Kevin. You must be a genius to be able to assimilate and articulate so much complex and variegated information!

BlesSings to you!

I believe Eratosthenes used geometry/trigonometry. He knew that at the Summer solstice, a vertical pole at a certain town left no shadow. By measuring the length of the shadow at a location some 500 stade south and regarding the earth as a globe, he arrived at his figure.

So let’s make this very simple: the sunset. Impossible with a flat earth, right?

I’m referring to the 20 to 30 pseudo-facts Copernicanists love to regurgitate without checking in the least if they actually support their masonic worldview.

Muh ship on the horizon, muh curvature, muh airplane routes, muh coriolis effect, muh satellites, muh moon rocks, muh moon reflectors, muh constellations, muh Eratosthenes etc. etc. ad nauseam, every single one of them having been answered to many times already – yet they keep coming back. Repetition really is the mother of indoctrination.

Rurik, you are still in top form. Many thanks for the literate, insightful post.

so basically this whole article is just saying jews lie about the real parts of their belief system. Thats one of the most cowardly things ive ever heard of in my life. In a millenia spanning battle against people whom dont even know theyre in a fight at all. I literally used to think Jewish people were cool and just like us Christians but I can finally see now. It isnt the Muslims at all, its literally you disgusting jewish filth. Hitler was right, you should have been driven out of every western country like the vermin you are. When the day comes again, and it will, there wont be any rocks for you to hide under or stories to make up and get out of it. This time it will be real, and you’ll deserve everything you get.

old BS debunked a thousand times already

By all means, do elaborate.

“CalicoTunaPro_2019”, “Greg Felton”, “Iris” – NAShA shills and fanboys regurgitating the same old BS debunked a thousand times already, exploiting the serial-position effect on a dying thread exactly as established in their laughable forum-busting handbooks.

Pathetic.

@Greg Felton

There is space junk on the moon: how did it get there?

It is undisputed that artificial objects were sent to the Moon during unmanned missions.

The Lunokhod 1 Soviet rover, sent in 1970, returned images and lunar soil analysis performed with an embedded spectrometer. It remains on the Moon to the day, and its retro-reflectors were located twice by independent US (2010) and French (2013) observatories.

Real samples of Moon soil, in the order of 100’s grams, were also collected by unmanned missions and returned to Earth, but nothing in order of the 300+kg of stones NASA allegedly brought back.

This is the sort of lazy, infantile drivel that gives dissenting opinions a bad name. NOBODY here has any evidence the moon landings were faked. We just have reflexive anti-government prejudice as shown by the first post:

“Mulegino1 says:
July 18, 2019 at 3:12 pm GMT • 100 Words

Given the long history of lies by the government of the United States and its camp followers in the establishment media, there is no appreciable reason to believe that men sent by NASA really walked on the moon.”

This is a false argument (guilt by association) and the prejudice it betrays explains why informed debate is now all but impossible. There is space junk on the moon: how did it get there?

We landed on the moon. My father was an engineer for Apollo 11 and wrote the software for the navigation system on the lunar module. As a child, I remember watching the Saturn V rockets liftoff on trips to Florida. The science is well-established; there is no way this could all have been a hoax. Some reports of studios filming the lunar walk may have their roots in efforts of television networks to have a ‘plan B’ in place in case the camera feed from the lunar module went dead (it didn’t). There was a lot of live television time that had to be covered. See the article here

http://naplesdailynews.fl.newsmemory.com/?publink=0f7701bde

I think it’s likely that the ‘moon landing as hoax’ theory has been propagated to discredit alternative accounts of events such as the JFK assassination, 9-11, etc.

This is indeed the dirty secret of the “muh reflectors!!” crowd. The Soviet did it as well at the Crimean Astrophysical Observatory in 1964 and 1966

So far the US, Soviets, Italians, French and recently the Chinese have accomplished this. The private SpaceL mission, with its own retroreflector, crash landed in april and the MoonLight/Moon Express mission is due later this year. The Chinese measured the distance to the moon from 385,823.433 km to 387,119.600 km.

The Indian Chandrayaan-2 probe is underway as we speak and is currently in a high eliptical orbit between 241.5 x 45162 km with Trans Lunar Insertion is planned for aug. 14. and expected moon orbit reached by aug. 20.

Hardly convincing.

No word on the photon reception rate at MIT in 1962, but the fact remains they didn’t need any reflectors to bounce a laser beam off the Moon.

Therefore, laser beams bounced off the Moon are proof only that laser beams do bounce off the Moon, a fact demonstrated already by 1962, long before the Apollo astronauts could have put any reflectors in place on the lunar surface.

This is indeed the dirty secret of the “muh reflectors!!” crowd. The Soviet did it as well at the Crimean Astrophysical Observatory in 1964 and 1966 (as cited in https://tmurphy.physics.ucsd.edu/apollo/doc/Bender.pdf). For a detailed overview why the reflectors couldn’t even work in principle I can recommend the following site: http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/xpascal/MoonHoax/ApolloReflectors/ApolloReflectors.HTM

The first laser light was bounced off the Moon on May 9, 1962 by a team of researchers from MIT. Despite what people think, even a laser beam spreads out quite a bit over a quarter million miles:

The first time this was done, MIT scientists using a ruby laser to bounce a light beam off the moon in a series of pulses, estimated that its area on the moon’s surface was just four miles in diameter. Later they were able to reduce this to under 2 1/2 miles.

According to the Wikipedia article, the laser beam width is four miles now.

At the Moon’s surface, the beam is about 6.5 kilometers (4.0 mi) wide and scientists liken the task of aiming the beam to using a rifle to hit a moving dime 3 kilometers (1.9 mi) away. The reflected light is too weak to see with the human eye. Out of 1017 photons aimed at the reflector, only one is received back on Earth, even under good conditions. They can be identified as originating from the laser because the laser is highly monochromatic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment

So, we were able to bounce laser beams off the Moon already by 1962, but we can do it better now, apparently, because of the laser reflector, even though it returns only 1 out of every 1017 photons beamed its way.

No word on the photon reception rate at MIT in 1962, but the fact remains they didn’t need any reflectors to bounce a laser beam off the Moon.

Therefore, laser beams bounced off the Moon are proof only that laser beams do bounce off the Moon, a fact demonstrated already by 1962, long before the Apollo astronauts could have put any reflectors in place on the lunar surface.

“An epic lunar laser experiment is still going strong, five decades after the Apollo astronauts set it up on the surface.

The moonwalking crew of Apollo 11, which landed on the moon 50 years ago this month, put special retroreflectors on the lunar surface, as did the later crews of Apollo 14 and 15, in 1971. (Another retroreflector, built by the French, sits on the Soviet Lunokhod 2 rover that landed without a crew in 1973.)

The NASA experiment, called the laser ranging retroreflector, is “a special type of mirror with the property of always reflecting an incoming light beam back in the direction it came from,” explained the Lunar and Planetary Institute (LPI) in a statement. And the reflector is key for measuring the distance between the Earth and the moon, the institute added.” https://www.space.com/apollo-retroreflector-experiment-still-going-50-years-later.html

Res ipsa loquitur.

Head of NASA’s human exploration program William Gerstenmaier demoted as not enough progress is made for Moon “return” in 2024:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20689737/nasa-william-gerstenmaier-associate-administrator-human-exploration-demoted

Shame NASA didn’t think of making photocopies of those magical Apollo 11 blueprints; they wouldn’t have lost their jobs.

Von Braun never retired. He died. You have earned a doxxing by Buzz Aldrin. I’ve texted him your address. He prefers 2×4’s over golf clubs for breaking facial bones. It’s the arthritis in the hands…

Why are the so called “moon rocks” proven to be of Antarctic origin?

I’ve never heard that — but it seems pretty clear that a “moon rock” given to the Dutch PM (no less) by Neil Armstrong (“) is now known to be petrified wood — yet strangely, I do not believe there has ever been either an apology or an explanation for that — ?

Also, is it a coincidence if every time the public questions a real institutional conspiracy (the Moon Landing hoax, Nine Eleven “Planes” terror attack, the Bilderberg oligarchy), an obviously ludicrous counter-conspiracy theory (Flat Earth theory, Wood’s Directed Energy Weapons, reptilian Royals) suddenly appears, to muddy the waters and make all genuine truth seekers look like lunatics?

What is and what is not “an obviously ludicrous counter-conspiracy theory” obviously depends on your current state of knowledge – after all, for normies, the moon landing hoax, 9/11 and Bilderberg are ridiculous conspiracy theories. Believing state-sanctioned narratives is what makes them normies in the first place.

While smear-by-association tactics definitely exist, always remember the magical mantra “what is the evidence?”, and as soon as you apply this with due diligence to matters of cosmology, the holes in the Copernican paradigma will become glaringly obvious.

Regarding reptiloid beings and bloodlines, I don’t have an opinion on that topic, as until now I have never looked into it. I don’t even know if it’s meant to be taken literally or as some kind of metaphor. But I will say that in the famous/infamous “I Am a ROFSCHILD, Axe me a Question” thread the mysterious OP mentions some potentially very interesting things regarding different types of intelligences on this planet. The whole thread should be studied very diligently by anyone interested in the near and medium term future:
https://ia802300.us.archive.org/8/items/rofschildv1/IAmARofschildAxeMeAQuestion.html

To lighten the mood, enjoy “Flex Like David Icke” by Pink Guy:

Isn’t it interesting that the “space suits” that these high tech visors were attached to were made by Playtex out of their ordinary underwear fabric? Amazing, isn’t it, how this material was suitable for “pressurized space suits”, being impervious to radiation and micro-meteorites was well?

I’m just amazed that anyone still believes all of this hokum and remains willing to defend it just because they saw a TV program when they were 7 years old.

” Live news footage of the moon landing was not broadcast in the USSR.”

In fact “live news footage of the moon landing” wasn’t broadcast at all. Your mind may be coming to you after all.

Every American parent should be. “Kicked in the bottom” with this information, then vaccinate his children against the process.

John Taylor Gatto was in sync.

Much, much worse than that.

If you can convince the public that Nine Eleven truth seekers believe in Aliens having brought down the Twin Towers with hand-held DEW’s, than the public will accept ever-lasting mass murder and wars with resignation. The Deep State thanks Judith Wood.

Well, I actually quite liked many of your comments and would certainly never have dared calling you a fraud !!! So, thanks for the clarification, LOL. Yet another demonstration that most people don’t deserve a shred of respect…

You did not appear to be “distracting attention” from the Moon Hoax discussion: you seemed to be rejecting the Hoax too.
Take what people say at face value: some ridiculous conspiracies theories are deliberately produced by the powers-that-be to bury the truth about real political conspiracies. Flat Earth Theory is definitely one of them.

No nonsense, and let’s follow normal netiquette for any discussion forum: present the agruments you like from Dubey or any source, so that anyone can follow it without looking at Youtube videos.

Also, is it a coincidence if every time the public questions a real institutional conspiracy to muddy the waters and make all genuine truth seekers look like lunatics?

Hmmm…didn’t think about this. Good point.

I was thinking on the way to work that this might be an experiment to see and push the limits of what one can do with online tools of thought manipulation. If you can convince a number of people the world is flat, what else can you possibly pull off?

Peace.

Do you think that my purpose here is to distract attention from the moon landing hoax and discredit those who argue for it? Seriously?

If you listen to the interview again you might notice how the flat earth discussion got started. Neither Barrett nor Guyenot could think of any significant Jewish influence in NASA. I said there is some but you have to trace it back through the secret societies, and the people doing that are those challenging the heliocentric system. I presented the theory, and certainly expected all the intellectual frauds who like to strike poses of superiority to surface, and indeed you have.

Your example is not hard to understand, it simply is flimsy, unpersuasive evidence for the Copernican system. A last ditch effort to pull its chestnuts out of the fire.

Maybe I have a fragile intellect, but would you like to compare academic credentials, since the argument from authority seems to be the only one that carries any weight with you? Bring it then. I’ll give you my name and the institutions that granted the degrees so you can check. The Bar and Mensa membership — you can check it all.

By the way, is there a group of official aviators that are part of the flat earth society ?

Also, is it a coincidence if every time the public questions a real institutional conspiracy (the Moon Landing hoax, Nine Eleven “Planes” terror attack, the Bilderberg oligarchy), an obviously ludicrous counter-conspiracy theory (Flat Earth theory, Wood’s Directed Energy Weapons, reptilian Royals) suddenly appears, to muddy the waters and make all genuine truth seekers look like lunatics?

If the simple reasoning embedded in my walkway example tortures you extraordinarily, you are in possession of an extraordinarily fragile intellect.

Using trains instead of a walkway, it was my primary school intro to Relativity Theory many decades ago. Something tells me trains would have made it no less tortuous for you.

With the dumbing down of American education, perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised that the notion of a flat earth is making a comeback. My spidey sense tells me that it may be a leading indicator that the West’s mental constructs are heading back to the European dark ages from which the West sprang.

>Furthermore, the thesis was publicised without criticism on Russian state-owned RT Arabic TV channel.

It could be mistaken for the archtypical KGB disinformation plot. Remember, Putin was a career KGB/FSB officer for most of his adult life until he hit politics, and many of his closest allies in the Kreml have been former KGB comrades.

A few exerpts from a 1983 interview with Soviet defector and KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov:

>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUMMDJf6Q7Q

quote:
“To change the perception of reality of every american, to such an extent that despite the abundance of information noone is able to come to sensible conclusions
Exposure to true information does not matter anymore
A person who is demoralized is unable to assess true information
The facts tell nothing to him, even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents and pictures. …he will refuse to believe it..

Eliminate the principle of free market competition
Put in place a big brother government
with a benevolent dictator who will primise lots of things
never mind if the promises will be fulfilled or not
He will go to Moscow to kiss the bottoms of the new generation of Soviet assassins
He will create false illusions that the situation is under control
It’s a great brainwashing process
/quote

Hey look, if you feel it is just as well explained by the sun rotating around a flat earth (I assume my mom is on the other side) then that’s great. I really have no inclination to convince you otherwise. It doesn’t bother me that some people live their lives believing the earth is flat.

Again, I would just not want to be flown by a pilot that believes that. By the way, is there a group of official aviators that are part of the flat earth society and willing to put their name on it?

Peace.

I get some extraordinarily tortured reasoning deployed to explain away why no motion of the earth can be detected. One of the very slender threads the Copernican model hangs by.

Nah, not worth the time. I’ve said most of what I know, and you’re not interested in clarifying anything, just obscuring the issues into pointless nonsense.

Do have a look at Dubay. If you can refute any two or three of his proofs — let’s say so that a literate adult can assent to the argument and then paraphrase it without looking — then you too can be an internet star. The globalists seriously need reinforcements, so if you think these probing questions and hypotheticals of yours would carry the day, go for it.

Viewed from a technical standpoint alone, 3 flawless moon landings and retreivals could not have occured. As would be readily confirmed by anyone, like myself, having spent his entire working career of 50+ years in the technical field.

certifiable nutcase idea that the USSR colluded with NASA to pull off a moon landing hoax

Nice to see you can do without the Tourette syndrome, FB.

I have already replied 476 times to the question you keep repeating in hope of a different answer: the collusion between USA and USSR to hide the Moon Hoax was reported in a Russian book, published and widely read in Russia, and translated to English on the Aulis website.

Furthermore, the thesis was publicised without criticism on Russian state-owned RT Arabic TV channel. All links posted in my comments above.

I suggest you make a call to President Putin and tell him to lock his “nutcase” journalists in some asylum. Best.

Seems like NIDF (NAShA internet defence force) is out in force again. As always, strong on insults and ad-homs, weak on actual arguments that couldn’t be debunked by a curious 14-year old. Masons and their moonie fanboys are getting desperate, and rightly so: without the moon hoax as a baseplate, the whole Copernican house of cards comes tumbling down.

> You Moon Hoax idiots are all the same. You bring up A. A is refuted. Then you move to B. B is refuted, then you mention C, etc.

That’s the Creationist tactic called the “Gish Gallop.” Same mentality.

>The prima facie case is that the earth is flat and motionless because that is what we perceive.

What about blind persons? By this logic, one can not prove that anything exist beyond the line of sight either; that I do not exist because you can not see me; that the airplane is motionless because I can not perceive that it is flying at 500mph. But that would be rather silly perceptions, I think you would agree.

So how, exactly, would you prove by scientific means that the Earth is flat and not, say, a qube or trangle?

How would you, for instance, explain why we are not falling off the flat Earth, seing as our vision is actually projected upside down on our retina and simply rearranged by our brain: our perception is diametrically reversed and we are all stuck to the ground on an upside down Earth and thus we should be falling off into the sky below us.

And do take the time to put it in writing, not links to videos, if you don’t mind.

I should say rather that I am unaware. Unless you’re just going to talk about Einstein and relativity, which I truly don’t understand and I doubt you can clarify it. And I’m a bit more inclined to credit the Michaelson-Morley experiment in which no movement of the earth was detected, which Einstein was attempting to explain away.

Yeah, you definitely want somebody who’s adept at hitting landing strips that are moving away or towards you at 800 mph. That’s got to take some serious skill.

But you know, pilots don’t make any adjustments downward to adjust to the curvature and avoid flying off into space. The official story apparently is that the plane is carried along by the earth’s atmosphere, which keeps it at a uniform distance from the earth a it traverses the curve.

And you do know, don’t you, that different times of daylight in different parts of the world is explained just as well by a sun rotating around the earth, just as it appears to do?

In his book The Grand Design Stephen Hawking wrote that the Ptolemaic system explains all observable phenomena just as well as the Copernican system, and was not disproved by the Copernican system. He simply preferred the Copernican system because math equations were easier to work out by assuming the sun as stationary (within the context of the solar system).

Do enlighten.

At #58, you said:

You can fire a cannon ball from the same point both east, while the earth is supposedly spinning in the same direction, and west presumably against the earth’s rotation, and it will travel the exact same distance.

Imagine yourself on a moving walkway, walking first one way and then the other. Now imagine yourself watching a person do that. What’s the difference?

Get it now?

Some Greeks postulated a ball earth, but every map known of until Copernicus was of a flat earth.

Rubbish. You’re confusing helio-centric cosmology first conclusively established by Copernicus with the spherical model of the Earth, which is indeed ancient.

Strabos described Crates’ globe ~150BC. Since a century before that, and right through the “dark ages” to Copernicus, the spherical Earth was a given amongst educated persons. The oldest surviving terrestrial globe, the “Erdapfel” dates from the early 1490s, 50 yrs before Copernicus published his De revolutionibus.

“PS: gsjackson seems to be unaware of moving frames of reference.”

I’m not. Do enlighten.

The prima facie case is that the earth is flat and motionless because that is what we perceive. Its motion and curvature cannot be proved, according to Einstein, ergo burden of proof over to the globalists.

But you want some proofs it’s flat:

That is another good experiment.

I know when the sun sets here in Illinois, and I call my mom in California, she says it’s still light outside, and I’ve done FaceTime with her so I know it’s true.

Honestly though, I don’t particularly care if someone thinks the world is flat – more power to them. I just don’t want them piloting the aircraft I’m flying in, but otherwise, I’m sure they’re fine folks.

Peace.

That’s probably a good way to figure this out.

Another way is to have 2 ships leave the same port and travelling at the same speed over the ground (SOG) heading for the same destination, but one steering a constant compass course and the other steering a Great Circle Route.

The team that comes out of it with their legs intact wins.

For some extra urgency, provision ships for the shorter anticipated voyage. The first one into the destination port determines the argument. The other one goes adrift and starves after running out of fuel along the way. If one uses airplanes instead, the contest ends catastrophically for the loser.

Until reading this thread, I hadn’t considered the possibility that some flat-earthers were earnest. Live ‘n learn. The human psyche is capable of dredging up all manner of silly notions and embedding them in a world view. Of course, not all of them can be lived by for long and the worst of them can mean the loss of more than one’s legs.

PS: gsjackson seems to be unaware of moving frames of reference.

>the burden of proof is on a contention that is utterly preposterous on its face.

So it would seem you are acknowledging you can not prove that the Earth is flat, so you instead avoid the issue alltoghether by simply shifting the burden of proof?

>The point I was making is simple: why have the “tubular” cooling jacket American technology used on the Saturn V F-1 rocket engines been completely abandoned, and the US (and everybody else) reverted to “double-shell” cooling jacket Soviet technology , which is the technique overwhelmingly used today?

Firstly, it would be prudent if you could provide exact references on the “Soviet technology” assertion.

>when flying in commercial plane at cruise speed (above 10,000 feet), one doesn’t see any clouds above

Clearly not the case, and so I can only hope you get the chance to fly on a airliner some day.

https://tinyurl.com/y6s4qhnh

All that are pushing this crazy certifiable nutcase idea that the USSR colluded with NASA to pull off a moon landing hoax at the height of the Cold War are truly missing the bigger picture. If what you assert is true, then the Cold War itself was a complete hoax, and even a bigger hoax than the moon landing. And even bigger than that, bigger than war is peace, bigger than slavery is freedom, bigger than ignorance is strength, is the idea that Eurasia is really Oceania.

I counsel reality. My words have ended.

I can see the Soviet Union maybe being in on it, but I don’t see why China would or how.

Back then China was poverty-stricken and, on top of that, was very technologically backwards even though they had their own national science councils. Doubt they cared to monitor Apollo 11’s communications (with the consideration in mind of whether or not they could do it with consistency and reliability) unless they could gain some scientific/technological knowledge from it, which I don’t see how they could. According to moon landing researchers, Russians, having their own space program and research, knew by that time that reaching the moon and coming back would be impossible; so there would be a reason for them to monitor communications so they could have a card to play against the Americans in the future.

China did not have a space program. They probably believed and went along with the American narrative that it was possible to go to the moon. So what would be the point for them to monitor American space communications? All the “photos”, “film footage”, and “audio communications” were all publicly broadcasted to the international press anyways; so if China believed the Americans, in their minds what they would have gotten from monitoring communications would be just a duplicate of what would be available publicly.

Plus, China had way bigger concerns at that time, like trying to feed all the poor and malnourished and building up basic industrial production.

FB, is that you? At the same time you’re racking up all those points on the Teaching Holocaust thread you’re over here devastating us as well with skillfully deployed vituperation? Impressive versatility.

Live news footage of the moon landing was not broadcast in the USSR.

Exactly. Which is why a Soviet cosmonaut needed security clearance and special equipment to watch live American TV.

It wasn’t “Soviet instrumentation” he watched, it was simple old American TV. (Except that you need special equipment to do that in 1969 USSR.)

With the LEVA on and the visors down, the moonwalkers were looking through three layers – the EMU pressure helmet, the protective visor and the gold sun visor.

So obviously Armstrong didn’t have his gold sun visor pulled down for at least some practice sessions, probably so he could see better what he was doing, but such defeats the purpose of the practice or training, I’d suggest, because it wasn’t being conducted under realistic conditions, i.e. with reduced light. Of course, they didn’t have the reduced 17% lunar gravity either…

With the gold visor down, the Apollo astronauts would have filtered out 90% of the visible light, according to this guy, along with almost all UV, and nearly all IR.

The transmittance of the total visor assembly was 10 percent in the visible range (.39 to .75 microns) and one percent in the UV range (.25 to .39 microns). The total transmittance’ in the IR range was 5 percent (.75 to 2.5 microns).

http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/001289.html

With their vision obscured by the reflective gold sun visors, the Apollo astronauts would have had a rather dim view of their surroundings. No wonder they needed to practice. Too bad they didn’t pull down their visors to make it even more realistic.

Why don’t you address the original point? You claimed that American engines are all Russian.

They aren’t. You are wrong. Go back and address that, you stupid ninny.

In any event, you are an idiot, who knows nothing about rocketry. There is more to a rocket’s overall performance than that of it’s first-stage. A rocket has several stages; their performance differs to meet different needs for a given flight profile. And performance is not all that is important. Cost is a factor too.

You are just a bloviating nitwit, opining about things you don’t understand at all.

Gosh. Maybe they used different visors when they were training on Earth. Ones that weren’t gold-coated. Maybe they used different suits.

This is supposed to be proof that it was all fake?

You people are such ridiculous clowns.

He’s wrong.

You think the World is flat. I don’t give a flying f**k what you think. You are a nitwit.

Thirteen insults, zero counter-arguments. An exemplary “believer”.

I’ve provided plenty of counter-arguments. You’ve ignored them. Your kind always does. It was you who asserted that all American rocket engines are derived from Russian designs. I made a post proving you wrong – which you interestingly ignored.

You Moon Hoax idiots are all the same. You bring up A. A is refuted. Then you move to B. B is refuted, then you mention C, etc.

You are stupid people who make stupid arguments.

And – frankly – insults are all you deserve.

According to this American astronaut, we didn’t precisely forget the technology, we “destroyed” it.

Thank you

I bad forgotten the name, so really randomly picked Demokritos. So a double thanks for it. OTOH, I only want to be coorect on the flow of things.

My own opinion on the Eastern Roman Empire, they had things we don(t know of know, look at the dome of the Ctathedral of Saint Sophia.

I may be repeating myself here.

Next time you see that curvature make a video of it and Youtube will ensure that you get millions of viewers. You will be a hero to a flagging (though still arrogant) band of global polemicists who try to engage in the Youtube wars on this subject, mostly young Brits. Seriously — you will be DA MAN.

Eratosthenes. His experiment works the same assuming the sun going around a flat earth is about as far away as it appears to be. He probably got the distance of the sun’s daily rotation about right.

As far as what the actual circumference of the earth is, that figure apparently has been arrived at by satellites, which flat earthers believe are also a fraud, sprung straight from Freemason Arthur Clarke’s imagination into space within a decade.

Glad you are amused. Life is best journeyed through laughing as much as possible.

Thirteen insults, zero counter-arguments. An exemplary “believer”.

When flying outside of Earth’s atmosphere, rocket engines make a hole and leave a trace in the cloud layers they traverse. Ordinary clouds are located at a maximum of 12-13 km high above see level. This is why, when flying in commercial plane at cruise speed (above 10,000 feet), one doesn’t see any clouds above .

You sound like a stupid person. There are lots of kinds of clouds, at various altitudes. Commercial aircraft fly at 30,000 – 35,000 ft., much higher than 10,000 ft.

NASA, as it happens, never released a continuous footage of Apollo 11 ascent. But people had personal Super 8 cameras at the time, and such a continuous amateur film was found with enthusiastic NASA/IBM employee Phil Pollacia.

NASA released lots of footage of the launch. There is no continuous footage because no single camera could film it at both low altitude with high resolution and high altitude with any resolution.

Pollacia’s film frames were checked and perfectly match NASA footage. The amateur film shows that the Apollo 11 rocket first crosses the cloud layer at second 105 of its flight. So Physics and meteorological science tells us that at sec 105, Apollo 11 was at about 8km above sea level.

That is a ridiculous assertion based your child-like understanding of clouds.

As I said, you appear to be an exceedingly stupid person, who understands nothing about technical matters. Your opinions are worthless and irrelevant. Nobody cares what nobodies like you think. That is why you are reduced to howling at the Moon from an obscure internet chat-room.

You people are ridiculous and laughable. I’m laughing at you now.

Because it is “your” authorities, not “mine” who claim having achieved something completely out of the ordinary 5o years ago, and having “forgotten” how they did it, so cannot repeat their “exploit” today.

It was not out of the capabilities of the time. And we have not “forgotten” anything. It is simply not worth repeating – not for a government. For private entrepreneurs that it is a different matter, and some of them ARE trying to go to the Moon.

This is a discussion forum about political cover-ups, remember?

I don’t care what it is supposed to be. It is evidently a forum for technically illiterate people to gas on about things they know nothing about.

Are you pretending not to understand the point I repeatedly made?
Aulis website is merely translating to English some of the very rich scientific and technological literature publicly available in Russia, debunking the Apollo hoax.

No, it is a fringe website publishing horses**t. What journal are these articles in?

The “stupid people” who believed Apollo was a hoax were first the Chief Designers of the Soviet Space Industry Sergei Korolev, Valentin Glushko, Vladimir Chelomey, as stated in their recently released letters and reports to the CPSU Central Committee.

I don’t read Russian. And, anyway, yeah – soviet flunkies would never lie to their commissar masters, would they?

Other “stupid” people debunking the myth are Physics and technology professors A. Popov and A. .Velyurov, who have PhD’s and accomplished professional careers:
http://www.manonmoon.ru/
http://free-inform.ru/pepelaz/pepelaz-13.htm

Wah, wah, wah. So what? America is full of much more distinguished physics and engineering professors who don’t dispute that America landed men on the Moon.

One last thing: I don’t interact with people who use foul, vulgar and gross language, so not likely to reply to you again if you don’t tone down.

Good. Don’t interact. Do you think I care? You are an idiot.

Wrong. Live news footage of the moon landing was not broadcast in the USSR.

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/15023/what-was-the-internal-soviet-reaction-to-the-moon-landing

Caption: This detail of a July 20, 1969 photo made available by NASA shows astronaut Neil Armstrong reflected in the helmet visor of Buzz Aldrin on the surface of the moon.

We’ve all seen the famous pictures allegedly taken on the Moon where an astronaut’s visor acted like a fun house mirror, and we could see one astronaut reflected in the visor of the other, but on Earth, the astronaut’s helmet visors were strangely transparent.

FFS, an ancient Greek mathematician made an accurate estimate of the Earth’s diameter well over 2,000 years ago.

You are very correct.
Earth’s circumference was calculated with an amazing accuracy by Greek scientist Eratosthène (276 to 194 BC), at 39,375 km calculated against 40,075 km actual.

So what is his argument? Can you say? Do you know?

There are many striking arguments, which I already posted in the Lind Dinh Moon Hoax article.

I will repeat one argument I favour, because it is a black-and-white Physics-based argument, but also one pretty easy to understand by almost any logical mind.

When flying outside of Earth’s atmosphere, rocket engines make a hole and leave a trace in the cloud layers they traverse. Ordinary clouds are located at a maximum of 12-13 km high above see level.
This is why, when flying in commercial plane at cruise speed (above 10,000 feet), one doesn’t see any clouds above .

This is illustrated by a photo taken from a NASA aircraft located at 10,000 feet high, showing the Columbia shuttle having made a hole in the cloud layer and progressing higher in a completely clear sky.

NASA, as it happens, never released a continuous footage of Apollo 11 ascent. But people had personal Super 8 cameras at the time, and such a continuous amateur film was found with enthusiastic NASA/IBM employee Phil Pollacia.

Pollacia’s film frames were checked and perfectly match NASA footage. The amateur film shows that the Apollo 11 rocket first crosses the cloud layer at second 105 of its flight. So Physics and meteorological science tells us that at sec 105, Apollo 11 was at about 8km above sea level.

On the other hand, NASA Apollo 11 postflight trajectory record states that at sec 105, the rocket was 24 km up, the altitude necessary to escape Earth gravity after having used 60% of its fuel.

In other terms, Physics tells us that the Apollo 11/Saturn V rocket assembly was lagging 3 times behind its official flight plan (8km instead of 24 km), and could have ended nowhere but in the Atlantic ocean.

So what should we believe? Physics, or yet another Deep State “miracle”?

On, a clear day, one may see the curvature of the Earth from a seashore, or, better still, a mountain near the sea.

One of my small regrets in life, is not having been a Concorde passenger in a window seat, as for the first time in my life, I would have been able to afford it.

Still, the ancients in Europe, and later China knew that the Earth is round. The Catholic-Orthodox also knew, because of visible evidence and access to ancient sources.

FFS, an ancient Greek mathematician (Demokritos, IIRC, who also discerned the nature of matter as based on atoms) made an accurate estimate of the Earth’s diameter well over 2,000 years ago. I may be attributing that wrongly, but it was known.

The ‘flat earth’ representations, at least in Europe and, later, China, were purely symbolic.

However, mndern flat Earthers are amusing.

How odd.

I mentioned these photos as the fourth (or thereabouts) answer in this thread and it was blocked by the Admins.

And yet, yours got through the filter.

How odd.

So you are just taking it on authority. Why are your authorities better than mine?

Because it is “your” authorities, not “mine” who claim having achieved something completely out of the ordinary 5o years ago, and having “forgotten” how they did it, so cannot repeat their “exploit” today.
This is a discussion forum about political cover-ups, remember?

Aulis is “forum drivel”

Are you pretending not to understand the point I repeatedly made?
Aulis website is merely translating to English some of the very rich scientific and technological literature publicly available in Russia, debunking the Apollo hoax.

Russia is a large country, with a respected space industry tradition, and has a credible voice outside her frontiers. A lot of people worldwide can see that the Apollo king is naked, even if Americans can’t.

Because it’s a waste of time trying to talk stupid people out of being stupid.

[Shrug]
The “stupid people” who believed Apollo was a hoax were first the Chief Designers of the Soviet Space Industry Sergei Korolev, Valentin Glushko, Vladimir Chelomey, as stated in their recently released letters and reports to the CPSU Central Committee.
http://www.epizodsspace.narod.ru/bibl/biblioteka.htm

Other “stupid” people debunking the myth are Physics and technology professors A. Popov and A. .Velyurov, who have PhD’s and accomplished professional careers:
http://www.manonmoon.ru/
http://free-inform.ru/pepelaz/pepelaz-13.htm

The only reasonable and honest argument brought up by a “believer” in the UR main Moon Hoax article was that, by now, some qualified whistleblowers would have spoken up. Well, they did, albeit in Russian.

One last thing: I don’t interact with people who use foul, vulgar and gross language, so not likely to reply to you again if you don’t tone down.

During the Cold War none were Russian.

The point I was making is simple: why have the “tubular” cooling jacket American technology used on the Saturn V F-1 rocket engines been completely abandoned, and the US (and everybody else) reverted to “double-shell” cooling jacket Soviet technology , which is the technique overwhelmingly used today?

The F-1 rocket engines allegedly used by NASA to propel the Apollo missions (1969-1972) had truly “miraculous” performances in terms of payload.
According to NASA publicity material, the Saturn V first stage mass ratio (the ratio of the rocket’s wet mass to its dry mass) was an astonishing 17,5. It would make it the best ever, and unbeatable to date, as mass ratios are 14.4 for US H-1 first stage, 15 for Russian Proton booster, 15.2 for Soyuz 2nd stage, 16 for Atlas II, and finally 17 for the Space Shuttle.

So how come such miraculously powerful and efficient engine technology (F-1) was completely abandoned after the Apollo missions ?

Speaking of our “line of sight,” watch someone walk a mile down the road and see if you have any thoughts about the limitations of human vision. Because the jerry built Copernican system, with the sun 93 million miles away and the stars quadrillions, apparently holds that there are none.

I’m sorry, but regardless of what many millions of people believe without giving the matter a second thought, the burden of proof is on a contention that is utterly preposterous on its face. Not just extraordinary claims, but apparently absurd ones. Especially when it is all jerry built on dodgy theories that can’t be proved by dodgy characters like Newton and Einstein.

“…. a spherical earth had been accepted knowledge since the ancient Greeks.” This almost certainly isn’t true. Some Greeks postulated a ball earth, but every map known of until Copernicus was of a flat earth. Again though: “accepted knowledge” doesn’t really cut it as an arbiter of truth, especially in this era of easily propagandized masses.

There is a lot you don’t understand.

>The burden of proof is on Copernicans to show

It’s rather the other way around. In law or philosophy the burden of proof usually lies with the one opposing or disputing a generally accepted norm or status quo. Hence the famous quote by Carl Sagan: “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”

>that everything we can see and experience with our senses is wrong

Can you see the electrons running your computer? Does anything exsist if you can’t see it?

There is no contradiction between our senses and Copernicanism. Our senses (I suppose you mean our vision) simply does not care whether the Earth is flat or spherical. Everything outside our line of sight is simply invisible regardless of our mental perspective.

Indeed, Copernicus wasn’t even proposing a spherical Earth: it had been accepted knowledge since the ancient Greeks. Then Newton came around and pointed out that the Earth wasn’t actually spherical, but an ellipsoid.

>All modern rocket engines, without exception, including post-Saturn American engines, use Soviet/Russian technology.

During the Cold War none were Russian. Of the vehicles today, Falcon, Delta, Minotaur, Pegaus etc. and all the new ones under development, use american engines. And boosters. It’s only the first stage on Antares and Atlas that use Russian engines. And thats only quite recently, from 2000. The second stages, however, use american engines.

Pr Popov did not “make claims on the Internet”. He wrote a book published in Russia, a first-class country in space industry, where there is plenty of competent aeronautical scientists and engineers able to understand and contradict his arguments, if they were wrong, demolishing his professional reputation in the process.

What does he claim? You don’t even seem to know. So you are just taking it on authority. Why are your authorities better than mine? Or my own personal knowledge?

So what is his argument? Can you say? Do you know?

I don’t think you understand a single goddamned thing about any of it.

Furthermore, his thesis are translated to English and published on the Aulis website. Is there any reason why Western scientists believers of the “Apollo miracle” do not take the pain to pen a refutation?

Because it’s a waste of time trying to talk stupid people out of being stupid.

And I mean a serious, scientific refutation of an identical scientific level, not the forum drivel you posted.

“forum drivel”? Aulis is “forum drivel”.

Why would the US military rely on Russian rocket engines, ignoring the sanctions Russia has been under? Any clue?

Beacause they’re cheaper and some of them are pretty good.

The Atlas Rocket uses Russian engines. The Antares Rocket does do, but they have a tendency to blow up.

The Delta Rocket does NOT use russian engines. Neither does the Falcon.

Every rocket engine built in this country up through the end of the Cold War was built independently of Russians or their know-how, including the RS-68, the RS-25, the RL-10, the H-1, the J2, the F-1, the Space Shuttle SRB, and various other solids. The Merlin was also developed in the United States, and not by Russians.

You are an ignoramus. You know nothing of which you opine on.

gsjackson wrote:
>I’m all for two opposing artillery teams settling it in real time for the world to see – no problems whatsoever.

Hold on, didn’t you just claim this has already been done?
Quote;

gsjackson says:
July 20, 2019 at 5:06 pm GMT • 100 Words

[…]

“You can fire a cannon ball from the same point both east, while the earth is supposedly spinning in the same direction, and west presumably against the earth’s rotation, and it will travel the exact same distance.”

So given the choice between some conspiracy fellaw on RT.com, a propganda channel, and an actual cosmonaut who was actually present in Soviet russia – which was about to loose the moon race after spending billions of rubels and, infact, never called the Apollo missions a hoax – and who had a first row seat to watch the events unfold, you choose the former?

Lol, baselessly undermining Russian technological achievements is such an original counter-argument !!!

The US government ordered Russian-made rocket engines in 2018, at nearly the same time when the newly-created US Space Force was being established as a new branch of the US armed forces.

Why would the US military rely on Russian rocket engines, ignoring the sanctions Russia has been under? Any clue?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/08/01/us-space-contractor-signs-deal-continue-buying-russian-rocket-engines-a62409

You babbled:

He’s just a boomer with the usual ‘but I watched it live on teevee!!’ boomer canard.

(Boomers think TV is a source of ground truth, instead of a propaganda box. Go figure.)

Wrong. Apparently, you can’t be bothered with even simple fact checking before running your mouth.

Alexi Leonov was born in 1934, and is no Baby Boomer.

By contrast, I am a Baby Boomer — the last generation of Americans who had a good education. Those of us born between 1946 and about 1953 were the last generation of Americans who learned to read before the boob tube took over, and that is reflected in our very high SAT scores, among the highest ever.

But don’t let facts get in your way.
And don’t let Boomer Envy ruin your day.

Absent a compelling argument, why should I give a damn what some guys on the internet claim

Your comment displays basic comprehension problems.

Pr Popov did not “make claims on the Internet”. He wrote a book published in Russia, a first-class country in space industry, where there is plenty of competent aeronautical scientists and engineers able to understand and contradict his arguments, if they were wrong, demolishing his professional reputation in the process.

Furthermore, his thesis are translated to English and published on the Aulis website. Is there any reason why Western scientists believers of the “Apollo miracle” do not take the pain to pen a refutation? And I mean a serious, scientific refutation of an identical scientific level, not the forum drivel you posted.

Funny, that’s exactly what the official story sounds like to me: 15 billion years ago an explosion happened for some reason, and ever since earth and everything else has been flying away from the explosion at about 1 million mph. Eventually human beings showed up on one of the hurtling spheroids, having morphed from single cell amoebas into sea creatures who crawled onto the land, eventually became monkeys and finally people who write poetry and build civilizations.

Our spheroid spins around at 1,000 mph at the equator, while revolving around a sun that often looks close enough to touch but is actually 93 million miles away. This solar system is traveling around the Milky Way galaxy at over half a million mph, while the galaxy joins everything else in beating feet away from that explosion 15 billion years ago. None of this motion nor the curvature of the spheroid we’re on can be detected by our senses or proved through observable experimentation. Only through ‘thought experiments’ by ‘VERY SMART PEOPLE.’

All of this is taught in American public schools as fact. Not theory, fact. You want to talk about madness, indeed diabolical madness. Nothing fits the definition better than believing that horseshit unquestioningly. I believe they call it the madness of crowds. ‘Where are we all going? Over the cliff. Cool.’

It was a “boilerplate” capsule, used to train recovery crews.

http://www.astronautix.com/n/nasaslostbotoryofbp-1227.html

You people are all idiots.

All modern rocket engines, without exception, including post-Saturn American engines, use Soviet/Russian technology.

‘Tubular’ American engines, such as the “miraculous” Saturn V assembly that allegedly propelled Apollo 11 to the Moon, have now been dumped into landfill, have ended up in museums, or occasionally fly in old rockets, such as the US Delta II or the Japanese H-1.

You don’t know what the Hell you are talking about. You know nothing about any of this.

And their proof? Can you state what it is? Can you provide a list of their publications so that we might judge with what authority they speak. I mean – you are using an argument from authority here – so we have to evaluate it on those grounds. Absent a compelling argument, why should I give a damn what some guys on the internet claim. In any event, there are lots of PhDs in aeronautical engineering in the U.S. who say we did go.

I did find this on the web discussing Pokrovsky’s assertions:

http://www.moonhoaxdebunked.com/2017/07/710-is-it-true-that-saturn-v-wasnt.html

he watched the whole thing unfold from Moscow through the Russians’ high powered instrumentation

Translation error. He didn’t watch some secret Soviet ‘instrumentation’, he watched the same live TV feed that everyone else in the world watched.

He’s just a boomer with the usual ‘but I watched it live on teevee!!’ boomer canard.

(Boomers think TV is a source of ground truth, instead of a propaganda box. Go figure.)

Hey, like I said; I’m all for two opposing artillery teams settling it in real time for the world to see – no problems whatsoever.

Peace.