What else is knew? He is not the only one. CIA has a history of hiring "useful idiots."
Obviously, somebody forgot to tell the CIA that their asset is toxic and is an ass, both as a hole and as a jack.
CIA has a history of hiring “useful idiots.”
If Saak was “useful” then I don’t know what CIA counts as a success. American geopolitical track record via Russia, or, in general, globally is atrocious.
Suckisvili is just a Georgian thug bandit in expensive Western suit.
What you will never hear from McCain:
“We are all Palestinians now.”
Before McCain reaches “Pa….”
AIPAC will have a choke hold on him.
True. Never thought I’d be cheering for cancer.
McCain:
“We are all Georgians now.”
“We are all Ukrainians now.”
“We are all South Koreans now.”
“We are all Syrians now.”
“We are all Crimeans now.”
Etc.
What you will never hear from McCain:
“We are all Palestinians now.”
No Johnny, we aren’t all stooges kneeling for shekels now.
Before McCain reaches "Pa...."
What you will never hear from McCain:
“We are all Palestinians now.”
Clinton family as sweetener
Ouch. Even as a joke, phrases like that risk tearing the universe apart. Thread carefully.
I am still baffled why no President didn’t go after Insane McCain for treason for his Tokyo Rose Broadcasts from Vietnam.
Because we have double standards. G.W. Bush jailed a Pakistani businessman for selling Hezbollah TV station Al-Manar in a cable package citing Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. John McCain and Lindsay Graham were photographed with the terrorists in Syria and are still serving in the US senate.
I am still baffled why no President didn’t go after Insane McCain for treason for his Tokyo Rose Broadcasts from Vietnam.
It would have done a great deal of good in terms of supporting the rule of law.
all well said -though on McCain – like a dumb dog that barks up every tree for no reason – he is that dumb dog – though obviosuly his handlers trained him to bark up the wrong tree – so maybe that is all he knows.
What’s hillarious is watch Exxon-Rex act as if its all Russia’s fault that there is no peace in the Ukraine. Meanwhile, the ‘right sector’, which can’t be mentioned in the corporate media as they are too much of real fascists to acknowledge, had given Der Porky Fuhrer a 72 hour deadline to clean up his mess or he was out. Meanwhile, the US puppet is leading protests in the streets, backed by a previous US puppet who like Saashkavili has been charged with corruption.
Any fascists system, which lives on the rule that might makes right and that grabbing power is all that counts, always has featured internal fights between its thugs as they scramble to get that power all to themselves. We are seeing that now in the fascist state called Ukraine. And of course, we are told by billionaires and a corrupt, fake media that its all Russia’s fault.
Pretty soon now, we’ll be told that Ukraine’s ‘democracy’ has push a new (or old) US puppet to the top of the pile.
All these different places, and all I can think is that we Americans would be much better off if McCain was a Senator from Georgia or a Senator from Ukraine. And we’ll throw in Hillary and the whole Clinton family as sweetener to close the deal.
Ouch. Even as a joke, phrases like that risk tearing the universe apart. Thread carefully.
Clinton family as sweetener
bellycackle
Both pictures show two crooks united in criminal undertakings.
Obviously, somebody forgot to tell the CIA that their asset is toxic and is an ass, both as a hole and as a jack.
I read somewhere that this clown is actually a useful idiot…a CIA asset….
Obviously, somebody forgot to tell the CIA that their asset is toxic and is an ass, both as a hole and as a jack.
What else is knew? He is not the only one. CIA has a history of hiring “useful idiots.”
If Saak was "useful" then I don't know what CIA counts as a success. American geopolitical track record via Russia, or, in general, globally is atrocious.
CIA has a history of hiring “useful idiots.”
Oh my, Hillary, what company you keep!
And what company does Mr. Saakashvilli keep!
Both need guidance on avoiding bad company.
LOL! Hilarious! What more can anyone say?
I read somewhere that this clown is actually a useful idiot…a CIA asset….
Obviously, somebody forgot to tell the CIA that their asset is toxic and is an ass, both as a hole and as a jack.
What else is knew? He is not the only one. CIA has a history of hiring "useful idiots."
Obviously, somebody forgot to tell the CIA that their asset is toxic and is an ass, both as a hole and as a jack.
I read somewhere that this clown is actually a useful idiot…a CIA asset….
Obviously, somebody forgot to tell the CIA that their asset is toxic and is an ass, both as a hole and as a jack.
I read somewhere that this clown is actually a useful idiot…a CIA asset….
“We are all Georgians”. The Main Stream Media presumably decides that Ossetians are Georgians. Ossetians themselves are not entitled to any input on this.
It speaks for the crookedness of the US political class that they supported a thug, weirdo, and gangster such as Saakashvili. This coward should have jumped. Nobody should have rescued him.
That the corrupt Ukrainian regime led by Poroschenko hired a crook such as Saakashvili speaks volumes. At the same time, it tells a lot about abysmal judgment by the US political class. That John McCain belongs to the most jaded warmongers in D. C. is widely known.
In the beginning, Trump could have reversed the expansionist US foreign policy, but the Deep State in cooperation with the media and the Dems invented the Russian meddling spin. Now Trump can only move in the direction of further wars.
One for Israel against Iran and God forbid, against North Korea. One can only hope that some reasonable people can reign him in. Changes are not that bright, considering his blunder recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. The Russians were much smarter; they recognized West Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. Rightly so, because Jerusalem is occupied territory and according to international law a Corpus seperatum. The US hypocrites should keep silent about Russia’s taking back of Crimea. In international relations, the word of the US is not worth a damn anymore, and the US elite can’t be trusted as the Iranian case shows.
http://observer.com/2015/02/georgia-president-who-ate-his-tie-advises-ukrainians-how-to-capture-all-of-russia/
Yet this clown was president of Georgia,
Oh, he was more than that–he, at some point of time, ended up a Senior Statesman of Tuft’s University School of Government and Diplomacy. It, then, should not be surprising to observe American Russian “expertise” being in a gutter, together with US foreign policy–it is inevitable when one collects all kinds of weirdos to shape US foreign policy towards Russia.
As colourful as Saakashvili is, the real story is McCain, the best doomsday weapon Vietnam could have ever hoped for. They didn’t just beat us in 1975 … they’ve been destroying us from within since the early ’80s.
[…] uprchlík před zákonem, za jehož vlády Gruzie dosahovala nejnižšího ekonomického růstu ze všech postsovětských republik (zato ale rychlého úbytku obyvatel), tak nyní v Oděse získal své další léno, a […]
“Trump Towers in Tblisi” is probably not cargo. Even worse it could be the export of capital.
Trump likes to license his brand. The Trump Towers are possibly an investment sourced possibly even from domestic capital by Georgian owners who pay Trump a fee for using the Trump brand.
if armenia has more GDP than Georgia…kim jung un is a truly great leader. This article has just a lot of untrue information, I’m not a fan of Saakashvili but come on, this is ridiculous. University dropout? really? really? are you kidding?
if you still think the WASPS are responsible for all the wars in the ME.
American WASP elites “fought” and lost to neocons. They lost because they were corrupted and neocon narrative fitted really well into the American old narrative of exceptionalism and American version of history. It doesn’t matter who was BSing whom–what matters that both were and are BSers. Same sh.t, slightly different smell. It WAS a good point for compromise, it is akin to singing praises to the enemy which was always very desperate for praise, so–voila’. As Clausewitz stated in Vom Kriege–it is prudent to judge the event by its outcome. The outcome is already in the open. Again, American exceptionalism was created by WASP elites way before neocons sprung into existence. In fact, in very many important aspects it precipitated neocons’ emergence. As I already stated, American WASP’s version of history and that by neocons differ only in small details–in both cases they are detached from the reality and are pseudo-academic. While neocons are disgusting traitorous demagogues and, in many cases, simple criminals, for WASPs it is a good idea to start looking in the mirror before trying to correct the situation, if it is possible at all. I know and knew many WASP (and simply European-descent) evangelicals, some with very serious political wherewithal, their views and views of neocons are virtually indistinguishable. I can break you some news here–these are the people who are GOP’s base.
Read the M&W book and tell us if you still think the WASPS are responsible for all the wars in the ME.
btw – have you read PNAC’s Plan (A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm) or Oded Yinon’s Plan (A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s)? If you have, your views might be a tad different.
American WASP elites "fought" and lost to neocons. They lost because they were corrupted and neocon narrative fitted really well into the American old narrative of exceptionalism and American version of history. It doesn't matter who was BSing whom--what matters that both were and are BSers. Same sh.t, slightly different smell. It WAS a good point for compromise, it is akin to singing praises to the enemy which was always very desperate for praise, so--voila'. As Clausewitz stated in Vom Kriege--it is prudent to judge the event by its outcome. The outcome is already in the open. Again, American exceptionalism was created by WASP elites way before neocons sprung into existence. In fact, in very many important aspects it precipitated neocons' emergence. As I already stated, American WASP's version of history and that by neocons differ only in small details--in both cases they are detached from the reality and are pseudo-academic. While neocons are disgusting traitorous demagogues and, in many cases, simple criminals, for WASPs it is a good idea to start looking in the mirror before trying to correct the situation, if it is possible at all. I know and knew many WASP (and simply European-descent) evangelicals, some with very serious political wherewithal, their views and views of neocons are virtually indistinguishable. I can break you some news here--these are the people who are GOP's base.
if you still think the WASPS are responsible for all the wars in the ME.
There are two schools of thought on this issue: "the dog wags the tail" and "the tail wags the dog."
"Neocons are helpers, not drivers."
Yet, America’s military-industrial-complex owners, the owners of its energy companies, and its political leaders are mostly WASPS.
The Middle Eastern Christians whose communities have been destroyed thanks to American intervention are traditional Christians – the type that Protestants such as GW Bush don’t care much about (indeed, read Protestant leader Hagee’s anti-Catholic diatribes).
It would be interesting to see if Jeb Bush, a convert to Catholicism, would pursue similar policies.
“Neocons are helpers, not drivers.”
There are two schools of thought on this issue: “the dog wags the tail” and “the tail wags the dog.”
The first school is led by Prof Noam Chomsky, the second by Profs. Mearsheimer and Walt (authors of The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy).
While Chomsky’s thesis of American imperialism appeared to be a plausible explanation of events in the ME during the Cold War years, it has fallen into disrepute since 9/11 and the thesis put forward by Profs. Mearsheimer and Walt has become the dominant one.
“So, yes, spare me this narrative.”
You’re right… forgive me, “Vicky Nuland [along with the other neocons/Israel Firsters] is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.”
Neocons are helpers, not drivers.
I wish I could believe this. It would certainly make me feel better. But I don’t think that’s true.
Just one piece of evidence out of many:
The Christian community in Iraq was hurt by the US invasion even more than the Muslims. I think they’ve all had to flee the country. Now, G.W. Bush is a devout Christian. If he was the real driver of his administration’s Iraq policies, then presumably the Christians’ almost-2000-year-old history in Iraq would not have ended under his watch.
Same thing about the Syrian war. The Christians there support Assad.
Correct. And, much of such behavior actually predates America. The Scotch-Irish who provide the backbone for much of this were the same ones who were killing the Irish Catholics and settling their lands. The WASP elite planners and financiers are not unlike their British counterparts and have essentially taken on their role, now that Britain has faded. Neocons are helpers, not drivers.
There are two schools of thought on this issue: "the dog wags the tail" and "the tail wags the dog."
"Neocons are helpers, not drivers."
AP, I just noticed that you typed “No blood baths” in your response to me. Are you denying that the junta has killed thousands of civilians in Donetsk, Gorlovka and other cities?
1. What junta? Ukraine wasn’t taken over my a group of military officers. The government is elected.
2. Thousands of civilians dead, in a civil war due to anti-government fighters and foreigners hiding among civilians.
Why don’t the pictures of women, children, old people torn limb to limb lying on the streets of the cities of the Donbass move you?
If they truly moved you, then you would condemn the Russian wannabe Rambos who chose to use civilian areas as cover. Ukrainian government response is was fairly predictable. Poroshenko is doing nothing that other post-Soviet leaders such as Putin or Yeltsin did under similar circumstances. Actually, he was milder than them: his war only cost 7000 civilian lives. Yeltsin’s resulted in 50,000-100,000 dead, Putin’s war 25,000-80,000 dead.
Because you’re a hardcore nationalist
I am not any sort of nationalist. I am anti-Soviet, for what it’s worth. But for a Russian nationalist, someone who opposes Russian nationalist goals becomes a “nationalist.”
Anyway, there is a bloodbath going on and unless the junta is stopped or contained it will get worse.
So, since you compared them to Bolsheviks, what is your prediction? 500,000 deaths? More?
The economic dimension of that plan is described by the libertarian-neoliberal continuum of ideas. It’s possible to kill a lot of old people by cutting them off medical care and central heating.
Well, we’d expect a massive jump in the death rate then. 2014 showed a slight increase in death rate (to 14.7 from 14.6) – not in all oblasts – but it is still lower than it had been from 1994 to 2010 (other than one year, 1998). Given that Ukraine’s population has aged, this suggests no real difference.
If you want to know what the junta’s equivalent of the famines of the 1920s and the 1930s will be, that’s the best guess right now.
So in your world dying a few years earlier due to poorer health care is the equivalent of starving to death? Because in both cases there is an increased death rate? Amazing.
Obviosuly, if the Maidanites thought that they could win an election, they wouldn’t have mounted a coup. If they could have, they would have. Since they didn’t, they couldn’t.
Obviously, few people in Ukraine thought that Yanukovich, given time to prepare his forces, would have allowed free and fair elections. Sorry that they chose not to wait so that with clean hands, in exile or prison, they could say that President Yanukovich cheated.
At this point however they do appear to have majority support in the country. Perhaps not in Odessa or Kharkov but that’s impossible to know now.
Good that there is some understanding of reality. Odessa is probably evenly divided, Kharkiv is the only place in Ukraine that is certainly anti-Maidan. It is not completely “impossible” to know opinions there. In the last election, for example, one can compare votes to pro-Maidan Parties, votes for anti-Maidan parties, and compare 2014 turnout to 2012 turnout, with whatever lower % turnout in 2014 being attributed to disaffected anti-Maidan voters. Or examine poll results, and assuming that most “don’t know” or “refuse to say” answers indicated clandestine anti-Maidan attitudes. It is not exact, but one can get a good picture of public opinion in Ukraine.
To get majority support in the country they had to crush dissent. All anti-junta journalists have either fled the country or been killed. Elections held in an environment of rigid control over the media, of deadly violence against the regime’s opponents, of widespread intimidation are not democratic.
Well, for some reason pro-Maidan parties won the popular vote in the 2012 election. Polls conducted during Maidan – when Yanukovich was still in power – showed about twice as much support for Maidan as for Yanukovich. Remember that Ukrainian elections always used to be close. Remove the pro-Russian heartland of Crimea and urban Donbas and that alone would account for an easy pro-Western advantage, pushing the pro-Western electoral “floor” from 45% to 55%, at least.
You also forget the effect that the Russian annexation of Crimea and support for Donbas rebels has had. This has probably turned previously Russia-friendly ethnic Ukrainian areas such as Dnipropetrovsk into pro-Maidan ones. Thus further boosting pro-Maidan support in the country.
The idea that support for Maidan is a post-Maidan phenomenon, or that its increased support is primarily attributable to repression, is absurd.
Control over media is not as rigid as you imagine it to be and be easily circumvented through internet or satellite. And be careful about attributing causality with respect to flight of pro-Russian mouthpieces and attitudes towards Russia vs. the West. Did people turn towards the West because pro-Russians weren’t allowed to speak publicly and openly? Or were pro-Russian public figures faced with harassment because the people had turned against them?
Not so. Victoria Nudelman is married to Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC, the "think tank" that pushed hard to get the US to invade Iraq. PNAC was (and its successor FPI still is) comprised of Zionists/Israel Firsters, who are the antithesis of the "Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball."
Oh, please, spare me this US is an “innocent child” subverted by neocons BS. Vicky Nuland is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.
American exceptionalism, messianic ideas and imperialism started long ago, before Trotsky was even born and no one heard anything about neocons. Monroe Doctrine, Manifest Destiny are not products of Zionists. While influence of neocons on the US foreign policy is baneful and, often criminal, while the neocons have mostly their tribe’s interest at heart, constant, ad nauseam references to them as some kind of omnipotent conspiracy kings pursues merely two things:
1. Absolving US from the responsibility of its actions abroad by blaming it on neocons only, evidently the fact of very large strata of purely WASP evangelical Israel-firsters, to name one of many, who are ready to support neocons even if they unleash nuclear war, is being very conveniently overlooked.
2. Neocons are not alone, large swaths of American “elites” and simpler public are fine with any kind of intervention even WITHOUT any Israeli or other influences. The issue here runs much deeper than political discourse–it is cultural and it has a lot (and I mean a lot) to do with Continental Warfare or, in the case of US, lack thereof.
But in the end, and I know it sounds cruel, but neocons merely utilized what was already there and any nation deserves the politicians it elects. Until neocon ideological and pseudo-academic institutions are demolished (which I think is not in the plans–too many non-Jewish actors are well satisfied with their existence), there is nothing to talk about. So, yes, spare me this narrative.
You're right... forgive me, "Vicky Nuland [along with the other neocons/Israel Firsters] is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball."
"So, yes, spare me this narrative."
You really compare the estimated 7000 civilian deaths during a Civil War that would have been over if not for Russian support, to the 10,000s murdered by the Cheka? If you want to include civil war deaths, than the Bolshevik death toll would be in the 100,000s. Compare to 7,000 here.
The junta is engaging in terror, yes. It has killed many thousands of people through terroristic shelling of civilians in the Donbass.
Funny you should mention Syria. A civil war that would have been over if not for foreign support and volunteers. Does that sound familiar? Your side should be grateful that Poroshenko is no Assad, or Yeltsin.
Hundreds of thousands died in the Syran war.
I didn't realize Bolsheviks had a monopoly on the word "Revolution."
By the way, you’re denying the Bolshevik analogy while using Bolshevik terminology.
I didn't realize that Old Bolshevik ideology supported free markets, multiparty elections, sell-off of state assets, and integration with western capitalist states.
All they’ve had time to do in the Ukraine so far is illegally sezie power and start a civil war. Where they, the ideological descendants of Old Bolsheviks,
that would have been over if not for Russian support…
The war wouldn’t have started without the support of the US State Department and Western NGOs. They financed the Maidan coup. The war would have ended long ago without the military and financial support of the US. From what I’ve read a lot of the junta’s heavy military equipment is being supplied by Eastern European NATO members.
Putin’s offer to the junta’s owners is a neutral, federalized Ukraine. They haven’t accepted it. The people he’s dealing also want to organize a Maidan in Moscow in order to loot and partition Russia. It’s not a fight that Putin started, but once it began he can’t capitulate to them.
You really compare the estimated 7000 civilian deaths during a Civil War that would have been over if not for Russian support, to the 10,000s murdered by the Cheka? If you want to include civil war deaths, than the Bolshevik death toll would be in the 100,000s. Compare to 7,000 here.
The junta is engaging in terror, yes. It has killed many thousands of people through terroristic shelling of civilians in the Donbass.
Funny you should mention Syria. A civil war that would have been over if not for foreign support and volunteers. Does that sound familiar? Your side should be grateful that Poroshenko is no Assad, or Yeltsin.
Hundreds of thousands died in the Syran war.
I didn't realize Bolsheviks had a monopoly on the word "Revolution."
By the way, you’re denying the Bolshevik analogy while using Bolshevik terminology.
I didn't realize that Old Bolshevik ideology supported free markets, multiparty elections, sell-off of state assets, and integration with western capitalist states.
All they’ve had time to do in the Ukraine so far is illegally sezie power and start a civil war. Where they, the ideological descendants of Old Bolsheviks,
The vast majority of the civilian deaths occurred on the Novorossiyan side.
I hate Yeltsin and his legacy and won’t defend anything he did.
I made my prediction in my previous comment, before I saw your last comment.
On privatisation:
Both communism and libertarianism are radical schemes to remake society according to very simple, very rigid ideological rules. All attempts to put either of them into practice are bound to increase human suffering.
Plus any major repartitioning of assets is bound to involve major amounts of theft.
Do you really believe such nonsense?
What’s the difference between that gang and the junta? Not as many victims? Give them time. They’re just getting started. This is their 1918.
AP, I just noticed that you typed “No blood baths” in your response to me. Are you denying that the junta has killed thousands of civilians in Donetsk, Gorlovka and other cities? Are you denying that it deliberately targets civilians in a terroristic manner? Why don’t the pictures of women, children, old people torn limb to limb lying on the streets of the cities of the Donbass move you? Why is that not a blood bath to you? Because you’re a hardcore nationalist. These people aren’t your people, so they might as well not exist. And things that happened to them, like the bloodbath that’s being perpetuated by the junta against them right now, might as well not be happening as far as you’re concerned. And in the same breath you tell us that nationalism is a social construct invented in the 19th century.
Anyway, there is a bloodbath going on and unless the junta is stopped or contained it will get worse. The junta’s owners also have a radical plan for remaking society. Just like the communists did. The economic dimension of that plan is described by the libertarian-neoliberal continuum of ideas. It’s possible to kill a lot of old people by cutting them off medical care and central heating. By privatising the system, stealing all the equipment and selling it abroad, jacking up the prices. If you want to know what the junta’s equivalent of the famines of the 1920s and the 1930s will be, that’s the best guess right now.
Privatisation sounds like the opposite of collectivisation to those who don’t know any Soviet and post-Soviet history, but the 1920s and the 1990s were actually quite similar. The ideological fervor, the kind of people pushing radical change, the results. What’s happening to the Ukraine right now is the 1990s squared.
Concerning your talk of majorities and pluralities:
Obviosuly, if the Maidanites thought that they could win an election, they wouldn’t have mounted a coup. If they could have, they would have. Since they didn’t, they couldn’t. At this point however they do appear to have majority support in the country. Perhaps not in Odessa or Kharkov but that’s impossible to know now.
To get majority support in the country they had to crush dissent. All anti-junta journalists have either fled the country or been killed. Elections held in an environment of rigid control over the media, of deadly violence against the regime’s opponents, of widespread intimidation are not democratic. The Bolsheviks could have also mounted elections in the 1920s and 1930s. And they would have won them. The brainwashing was near-total.
Could you tell us explicitly if you expect there to be millions of people killed by the Ukrainian government, as millions of Russian, Ukrainians etc. were killed by the Bolsheviks?
I expect that in the parts of the former USSR that color-rev regimes control the percentage of the population that will die due to preventable causes per year will be similar to the percentages achieved by the Old Bolsheviks. The mechanisms will be continuing wars, continuing massive political repressions and economic collapse induced by looting and privatization.
1. What junta? Ukraine wasn't taken over my a group of military officers. The government is elected.2. Thousands of civilians dead, in a civil war due to anti-government fighters and foreigners hiding among civilians.
AP, I just noticed that you typed “No blood baths” in your response to me. Are you denying that the junta has killed thousands of civilians in Donetsk, Gorlovka and other cities?
If they truly moved you, then you would condemn the Russian wannabe Rambos who chose to use civilian areas as cover. Ukrainian government response is was fairly predictable. Poroshenko is doing nothing that other post-Soviet leaders such as Putin or Yeltsin did under similar circumstances. Actually, he was milder than them: his war only cost 7000 civilian lives. Yeltsin's resulted in 50,000-100,000 dead, Putin's war 25,000-80,000 dead.
Why don’t the pictures of women, children, old people torn limb to limb lying on the streets of the cities of the Donbass move you?
I am not any sort of nationalist. I am anti-Soviet, for what it's worth. But for a Russian nationalist, someone who opposes Russian nationalist goals becomes a "nationalist."
Because you’re a hardcore nationalist
So, since you compared them to Bolsheviks, what is your prediction? 500,000 deaths? More?
Anyway, there is a bloodbath going on and unless the junta is stopped or contained it will get worse.
Well, we'd expect a massive jump in the death rate then. 2014 showed a slight increase in death rate (to 14.7 from 14.6) - not in all oblasts - but it is still lower than it had been from 1994 to 2010 (other than one year, 1998). Given that Ukraine's population has aged, this suggests no real difference.
The economic dimension of that plan is described by the libertarian-neoliberal continuum of ideas. It’s possible to kill a lot of old people by cutting them off medical care and central heating.
So in your world dying a few years earlier due to poorer health care is the equivalent of starving to death? Because in both cases there is an increased death rate? Amazing.
If you want to know what the junta’s equivalent of the famines of the 1920s and the 1930s will be, that’s the best guess right now.
Obviously, few people in Ukraine thought that Yanukovich, given time to prepare his forces, would have allowed free and fair elections. Sorry that they chose not to wait so that with clean hands, in exile or prison, they could say that President Yanukovich cheated.
Obviosuly, if the Maidanites thought that they could win an election, they wouldn’t have mounted a coup. If they could have, they would have. Since they didn’t, they couldn’t.
Good that there is some understanding of reality. Odessa is probably evenly divided, Kharkiv is the only place in Ukraine that is certainly anti-Maidan. It is not completely "impossible" to know opinions there. In the last election, for example, one can compare votes to pro-Maidan Parties, votes for anti-Maidan parties, and compare 2014 turnout to 2012 turnout, with whatever lower % turnout in 2014 being attributed to disaffected anti-Maidan voters. Or examine poll results, and assuming that most "don't know" or "refuse to say" answers indicated clandestine anti-Maidan attitudes. It is not exact, but one can get a good picture of public opinion in Ukraine.
At this point however they do appear to have majority support in the country. Perhaps not in Odessa or Kharkov but that’s impossible to know now.
Well, for some reason pro-Maidan parties won the popular vote in the 2012 election. Polls conducted during Maidan - when Yanukovich was still in power - showed about twice as much support for Maidan as for Yanukovich. Remember that Ukrainian elections always used to be close. Remove the pro-Russian heartland of Crimea and urban Donbas and that alone would account for an easy pro-Western advantage, pushing the pro-Western electoral "floor" from 45% to 55%, at least. You also forget the effect that the Russian annexation of Crimea and support for Donbas rebels has had. This has probably turned previously Russia-friendly ethnic Ukrainian areas such as Dnipropetrovsk into pro-Maidan ones. Thus further boosting pro-Maidan support in the country. The idea that support for Maidan is a post-Maidan phenomenon, or that its increased support is primarily attributable to repression, is absurd.Control over media is not as rigid as you imagine it to be and be easily circumvented through internet or satellite. And be careful about attributing causality with respect to flight of pro-Russian mouthpieces and attitudes towards Russia vs. the West. Did people turn towards the West because pro-Russians weren't allowed to speak publicly and openly? Or were pro-Russian public figures faced with harassment because the people had turned against them?
To get majority support in the country they had to crush dissent. All anti-junta journalists have either fled the country or been killed. Elections held in an environment of rigid control over the media, of deadly violence against the regime’s opponents, of widespread intimidation are not democratic.
The junta is engaging in terror, yes. It has killed many thousands of people through terroristic shelling of civilians in the Donbass.
You really compare the estimated 7000 civilian deaths during a Civil War that would have been over if not for Russian support, to the 10,000s murdered by the Cheka? If you want to include civil war deaths, than the Bolshevik death toll would be in the 100,000s. Compare to 7,000 here.
Compare Poroshenko to Yeltsin. 7,000 Donbas civilians dead out of a prewar population of about 5 million, vs. 50,000-100,000 Chechen civilians dead out of a population of 1.3 million.
Hundreds of thousands died in the Syran war.
Funny you should mention Syria. A civil war that would have been over if not for foreign support and volunteers. Does that sound familiar? Your side should be grateful that Poroshenko is no Assad, or Yeltsin.
If this gang isn’t stopped or contained, of course it will kill millions of people in the former Soviet space.
By the way, you’re denying the Bolshevik analogy while using Bolshevik terminology.
I didn’t realize Bolsheviks had a monopoly on the word “Revolution.”
All they’ve had time to do in the Ukraine so far is illegally sezie power and start a civil war. Where they, the ideological descendants of Old Bolsheviks,
I didn’t realize that Old Bolshevik ideology supported free markets, multiparty elections, sell-off of state assets, and integration with western capitalist states.
Yanukovich was overthrown in February 2014. It’s been about 16 months. We are well into 1919 now. So where are the 10,000s arrested and murdered? Where are the lamp-posts full of hanged enemies?
Please be more specific in your prediction. If Poroshenko stays in power, do you predict, say, half a million dead Ukrainians via repression/starvation etc.? Maybe a million including wartime deaths?
Do you really believe such nonsense?
What’s the difference between that gang and the junta? Not as many victims? Give them time. They’re just getting started. This is their 1918.
The junta is engaging in terror, yes. It has killed many thousands of people through terroristic shelling of civilians in the Donbass. The SBU is tortuting people in basements. The war that the junta started has killed several tens of thousands. This is only the beginning. They’re trying to widen the war. Obviously, for the junta’s owners Moscow is the real prize and the Ukraine is partly a springboard. The czar is still alive and in power.
By the way, you’re denying the Bolshevik analogy while using Bolshevik terminology. You’re calling their illegal power grab a revolution.
The neocons have killed very large numbers of people in other theaters of operations. Look at the Wiki on the casualties of the Iraq War. Some scientific estimates (surveys where a representative sample of the population was asked how many relatives they lost) go over a million. Hundreds of thousands died in the Syran war. Vicky, her husband and brother in law were involved in both of those wars.
If this gang isn’t stopped or contained, of course it will kill millions of people in the former Soviet space. They want to widen the war, overthrow Putin and Lukashenko, divide Russia into dozens of states and loot, loot, loot. There have been attempts to organize color revs in Moscow and Minsk. They will try again and again.
All they’ve had time to do in the Ukraine so far is illegally sezie power and start a civil war. Where they, the ideological descendants of Old Bolsheviks, were at one point primrily opposed by Strelkov, an ideological descendant of the White Guard.
They haven’t yet had time to redraw the Ukraine’s economy. Libertarianism is exactly the same thing as communism and neoloiberalism is socialism, a softer version of the ideal. They say that communism and libetarianism are opposites, but they also say that their squalid coups are revolutions. They lie a lot.
Anyway, the Ukraine is already an economic disaster zone and they’ve only just started. If you don’t see the parallels it’s because you don’t want to see them.
Oh, please, spare me this US is an "innocent child" subverted by neocons BS. Vicky Nuland is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.
Vicky Nuland is a neocon, and neocons are old Trotskyists.
Oh, please, spare me this US is an “innocent child” subverted by neocons BS. Vicky Nuland is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.
Not so. Victoria Nudelman is married to Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC, the “think tank” that pushed hard to get the US to invade Iraq. PNAC was (and its successor FPI still is) comprised of Zionists/Israel Firsters, who are the antithesis of the “Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.”
Why not call a spade a spade and admit that she and they are traitors to the American Republic?
What’s the difference between that gang and the junta? Not as many victims? Give them time. They’re just getting started. This is their 1918.
Do you really believe such nonsense?
I’ll indulge you. Bolshevik gang never won an election. The parties behind Maidan won the popular vote in 2012, and actually ran elections after the Revolution, winning it.
Bolshevik Revolution was an armed takeover by a minority; Maidan was a popular revolt supported by a plurality of the people.
Bolsheviks ruled through Terror. Real Terror. 10,000s executed in the first few months. When Crimea was taken the streets were full of hanged Whites. Sloviansk? Hint: the crucified baby story was a fake. I wonder if you believed it though? You have to spin a story about the Odessa fire, and still get about 48 victims.
Could you tell us explicitly if you expect there to be millions of people killed by the Ukrainian government, as millions of Russian, Ukrainians etc. were killed by the Bolsheviks? You can keep those numbers in scale – say, half a million to a million murdered. Do you predict this? This would be nice to have on record.
The new Ukrainian government has been in power for over a year. No blood baths. Elections.
Vicky Nuland is a neocon, and neocons are old Trotskyists.
Oh, please, spare me this US is an “innocent child” subverted by neocons BS. Vicky Nuland is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.
Not so. Victoria Nudelman is married to Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC, the "think tank" that pushed hard to get the US to invade Iraq. PNAC was (and its successor FPI still is) comprised of Zionists/Israel Firsters, who are the antithesis of the "Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball."
Oh, please, spare me this US is an “innocent child” subverted by neocons BS. Vicky Nuland is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.
Vicky Nuland is a neocon, and neocons are old Trotskyists.
Oh, please, spare me this US is an “innocent child” subverted by neocons BS. Vicky Nuland is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.
The Soviet Union was radically different at different times. During the horrible 1920s and 1930s it was dominated by Russians, Jews, Latvians, and Georgians - an international gang. But even if it was dominated by Russians, it was not chosen by Russians. Bolsheviks (unlike Nazis in Germany) did not win an election. They hijacked the country during a chaotic time, and solidified their grip on power through unprecedented terror. The Soviet Union in its genocidal incarnation (Lenin and Stalin times) was no more a product or "responsibility" of the Russian people than the 9-11 attacks were a reflection of the planes' passengers.
The Soviet Union was dominated by ethnic Russians.
The Soviet Union was radically different at different times. During the horrible 1920s and 1930s it was dominated by Russians, Jews, Latvians, and Georgians – an international gang.
What’s the difference between that gang and the junta? Not as many victims? Give them time. They’re just getting started. This is their 1918.
Vicky Nuland is a neocon, and neocons are old Trotskyists. If you say that the 1920s and 1930s were horrible, why are you supporting the junta? Because today’s versions of Lenin and Trotsky convinced you that the blood bath they’ve started will benefit your people. It won’t.
Oh, please, spare me this US is an "innocent child" subverted by neocons BS. Vicky Nuland is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.
Vicky Nuland is a neocon, and neocons are old Trotskyists.
Oh, please, spare me this US is an "innocent child" subverted by neocons BS. Vicky Nuland is as American as Star Spangled Banner, Apple Pie and Baseball.
Vicky Nuland is a neocon, and neocons are old Trotskyists.
Do you really believe such nonsense?
What’s the difference between that gang and the junta? Not as many victims? Give them time. They’re just getting started. This is their 1918.
“How Britain Denies its Holocausts” by George Monbiot
http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/
Samples:
1. “In his book Late Victorian Holocausts, published in 2001, Mike Davis tells the story of the famines which killed between 12 and 29 million Indians(1). These people were, he demonstrates, murdered by British state policy.”
2. “Three recent books show how white settlers and British troops suppressed the Mau Mau revolt in Kenya in the 1950s. Thrown off their best land and deprived of political rights, the Kikuyu started to organise – some of them violently – against colonial rule. The British responded by driving up to 320,000 of them into concentration camps(3). Most of the remainder – over a million – were held in “enclosed villages”. Prisoners were questioned with the help of “slicing off ears, boring holes in eardrums, flogging until death, pouring paraffin over suspects who were then set alight, and burning eardrums with lit cigarettes.”(4) British soldiers used a “metal castrating instrument” to cut off testicles and fingers. “By the time I cut his balls off,” one settler boasted, “he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one, I think, was hanging out of its socket”(5).
There are more…
I never claimed Chernobyl was in Russia. Are you illiterate?
And Chernobyl is Russian or in Russia, or did I read this statement of yours incorrectly as well?
You will be ignored from now on.
Lenin’s mother wasn’t Jewish, but half-Jewish. She had a Jewish father but a Swedish mother. So Lenin was 1/4 Jewish and not Jewish according to traditional Jewish law (because his matrilineal descent was not Jewish).
Kamenev had a Jewish father but a Russian Orthodox mother.
It should be noted that while Jews were over-represented among Communists, Communists were still a small minority among Jews. Most Jews in the Russian Empire were either traditional Orthodox ones or they were involved in business (such as Ayn Rand’s parents). Neither group liked Bolshevism.
The Soviet Union was dominated by ethnic Russians.
The Soviet Union was radically different at different times. During the horrible 1920s and 1930s it was dominated by Russians, Jews, Latvians, and Georgians – an international gang. But even if it was dominated by Russians, it was not chosen by Russians. Bolsheviks (unlike Nazis in Germany) did not win an election. They hijacked the country during a chaotic time, and solidified their grip on power through unprecedented terror. The Soviet Union in its genocidal incarnation (Lenin and Stalin times) was no more a product or “responsibility” of the Russian people than the 9-11 attacks were a reflection of the planes’ passengers.
Your stupidity is only exceeded by your lack of education. Khurschev was an Ukrainian
Such irony. You can’t even spell Khrushchev, and of course he wasn’t Ukrainian. He was born in Russia to Russian parents, and moved to Ukraine at age 14:
The Ukrainian election of Yanukovich all of a sudden becomes a “stolen election”?
Read my comments more carefully and you won’t make such silly replies.
I never claimed Yanukovich’s election was illegitimate. Indeed, I wrote about him: ” a guy who after having won an election legitimately”
Interesting how you utterly failed to understand, and based on your failure to understand you wrote a couple paragraphs, essentially making fun of yourself.
I never supported a violent coup. What you falsely claim was a coup was a popular revolution involving the support of the winners of the previous parliamentary popular vote, against a guy who after having won an election legitimately, then illegally and without the support of the people usurped all power over the country.
As someone who has whole-heartedly supported a violent coup you have no credibility and no standing to criticize the degree of freeness of any elections anywhere ever.
Nonsense. Soon after coming to power the "junta" ran elections in which the winners of the popular vote actually got power. Yanukovich never did that.
Whatever Yanukovich’s commitment to democracy was, it was higher that of the junta
Is this the new talking point that your handlers gave you? The Ukrainian election of Yanukovich all of a sudden becomes a “stolen election”? Care to supply any facts, or is it “because Obama say so”, or “because the person paying my salary says so?” The international observers, including from US and UK, did not find any irregularities at the time of this election.
This is the last time I am even reading your rubbish, let alone commenting on it.
But yours is a case study example of how the Western regimes manipulate the reality for a domestic audience with chicken memory. We invaded and occupied Iraq (and killed a million people) because of 911, then because of WMD, and finally because we wanted to rid the World of a dangerous dictator, pick your choice.
“…the winners of the popular vote ..”
These ones?
Victoria Nuland shopping for the “winner:”
“Yatsenyuk Invites American Oligarchs To Take Ukraine’s Assets (if there are any):” https://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/yatsenyuk-invites-american-oligarchs-to-take-ukraines-assets-if-there-are-any/
“Wikileak Cables: Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko in Washington’s Pocket Since 2006:” http://scgnews.com/leaked-documents-ukraines-new-president-works-for-the-us-state-department
As someone who has whole-heartedly supported a violent coup you have no credibility and no standing to criticize the degree of freeness of any elections anywhere ever.
I never supported a violent coup. What you falsely claim was a coup was a popular revolution involving the support of the winners of the previous parliamentary popular vote, against a guy who after having won an election legitimately, then illegally and without the support of the people usurped all power over the country.
Whatever Yanukovich’s commitment to democracy was, it was higher that of the junta
Nonsense. Soon after coming to power the “junta” ran elections in which the winners of the popular vote actually got power. Yanukovich never did that.
Trying to answer my own question. We think about GDP per capita as a proxy for the standard of living but I guess you can’t apply that 1990 USSR. The standard of living was about the same throughout Soviet Union, in fact it was higher in Ukraine vs. Russia (probably higher in Armenia, too.) But the GDP is calculated by valuing the produced goods at the world prices (adjusted by PPP in this case, but that coefficient had to be nearly the same for all Soviet republics so it doesn’t matter.) This shows that in the USSR Russian-produced goods were badly undervalued compared to the Ukrainian or Armenian ones. In other words, Russia subsidized other republics.
One example is 1943 Bengal famine. Three million dead. This is why the Indians consider Churchill as bad as Hitler or Stalin.
I respect the tone of this comment, which is not ad hominem as before. That is a basis of an open discussion about issues. The opposing opinions are the necessary prerequisite for a good quality discussion. Please do not jump to a conclusion that I am trying to patronize you with this statement, I am just stating the obvious.
British genocides are totally off-topic to this article and I have written elsewhere about them. Thus, I will respond only briefly.
The only remote excuse one could give to the British is that one cannot create an empire without braking a few eggs (a nice euphemism for genocide). Being raised in an Anglo culture you are not expected to have been taught about own crimes against humanity. Therefore, most Anglo people I spoke with never comprehended two simple items of information that other nationalities know about:
1) the British invented concentration camps and ethnic cleansing during Boer wars, not the Nazis around WW2, and
2) the British invented the firestorm bombing and carpet bombing of cities (commonly called Total War), not the Nazis.
The strongest argument that this was an Anglo invention is that this type of bombing requires a specific type of bomber which only UK and US had during WW2. Germany had Stuka bombers which were a weapon of terror and destruction but definitely not a weapon of mass destruction (WMD). It takes many, many years to develop a new model of a military plane (look at F35 development), therefore Lancaster and B17 were developed much before WW2. Therefore, a pre-mediated intention to spread war on civilian population, an ultimate war crime and crime against humanity.
So much about the lessons in humanity by the Anglos, given to Russia together with Jews and Poles who may have at least some right to lecture, although Jews less and less considering Palestine.
Well someone who munches on his suit tie does not strike one as a future genocidal maniac, more a village idiot. Saakashvili simply does not have the intellectual capacity (of Stalin) to cause great harm in the general area of the former Soviet Union. His greatest achievement will remain an attempt to start a war on Russia by killing several tens of Russian soldiers in Ossetia in a surprise attack. Yes, his appointment to Eastern Ukraine is a provocation to Russia, but I believe that Russia is much more concerned about the constant shelling of civilians in East Ukraine by the Nazis in Kiev than with a new tie-munching governor of East Ukraine.
Be that as it may, Saakashvili is not someone who would have been appointed unless the current leadership in Ukraine believed it could gain by provoking Russia.
What are the genocides you attribute to the UK? Certainly the Amritsar massacre of 1921 (by Indian troops) was bad enough to get General Dyer into trouble back home. A few Union generals after the Civil War committed massacres of native Americans which might be described as genocidal but where are there UK equivalents? I suppose the kind of propagandists who got up The Protocols of the Elders of Zion may have written up the inadequate relief efforts during the famine in Ireland caused by the 1840s potato blight as if it was some similar crime to what went on recently in Rwanda or Srebrenizca or Cambodia (cf. also Burma and Islamic State) and Australian colonies in the 19th century never had an equivalent of New Zealand’s Treaty of Waitangi but, appropriately perhaps for a people much less advanced than the Maoris, there were “Protectors of Aborigines”. Maybe you are thinking of the fact that, before Canada was a nation, the Newfies largely disappeared. A pity about those Eurasian diseases getting loose in British colonies….
Thanks very much for this detailed summary, which is not official history but is as close as one could get to it. This kicks the Western BS of equating the crimes of the Soviet Union with Russia (do not let me get started on the endless crimes and genocide of US and much worse UK).
I am not Russian, but in my personal opinion the two individuals who have done the worst crimes against humanity (genocide) in the Soviet Union (including the above mentioned Holodomor) and the big massacre in Katyn are:
1) Stalin – ethnic Georgian just like Saakashvili, and
2) Beria – also ethnic Georgian just like Saakashvili.
This does not make all Georgians genocidal maniacs, but it definitely cannot be allocated to Russia or the ethnic Russian Slavs, as the Western Propaganda Industry keeps repeating over and over. On the contrary, it appears that the US is searching the former Soviet Union for a new genocidal maniac to put in power via another “democratic” coup, to repeat this sad history.
{“I do not have such information and would love any Russians or citizens of the former USSR to provide reliable information.”}
Not sure what the composition of Politburo was prior to USSR dissolution, but Bolsheviks who violently took power in 1917, and subsequently murdered millions of Orthodox Christian Slavs/Russians, including the entire family of Tsar Nicholas II, were mostly non-Slavs.
Composition of the first central executive committee of the Bolshevik party after the so-called “Russian revolution” of 1917:
1. Sverdlov (chairman). Jewish
2. Avanesov (secretary). Armenian
3. Bruno. Latvian
4. Breslau. Latvian
5. Babchinski. Jewish
6. Bukharin. Russian
7. Weinberg. Jewish
8. Gailiss. Jewish
9. Ganzberg (or Ganzburg). Jewish
10. Danichevski. Jewish
11. Starck. German
12. Sachs. Jewish
13. Scheinmann. Jewish
14. Erdling. Jewish
15. Landauer. Jewish
16. Linder. Jewish
17. Wolach. Czech
18. Dimanstein. Jewish
19. Enukidze. Georgian
20. Ermann. Jewish
21. Ioffe. Jewish
22. Karkhline. Jewish
23. Knigissen. Jewish
24. Rosenfeld (Kamenev). Jewish
25. Apfelbaum (Zinoviev). Jewish
26. Krylenko. Russian
27. Krassikov. Jewish
28. Kaprik. Jewish
29. Kaoul. Latvian
30. Ulyanov (Lenin). Russian (matrilineal Jewish)
31. Latsis. Jewish
32. Lander. Jewish
33. Lunacharsky. Russian (matrilineal Jewish)
34. Peterson. Latvian
35. Peters. Latvian
36. Roudzoutas. Jewish
37. Rosine. Jewish
38. Smidovitch. Jewish
39. Stoutchka. Latvian
40. Nakhamkes (Steklov). Jewish
41. Sosnovski. Jewish
42. Skrytnik. Jewish
43. Bronstein (Trotsky). Jewish
44. Teodorovitch. Jewish
45. Terian. Armenian
46. Uritsky. Jewish
47. Telechkine. Russian
48. Feldmann. Jewish
49. Fromkin. Jewish
50. Souriupa. Ukrainian
51. Tchavtchavadze. Georgian
52. Scheikmann. Jewish
53. Rosental. Jewish
54. Achkinazi. Imeretian
55. Karakhane. Karaim (Karaite)
56. Rose. Jewish
57. Sobelson (Radek). Jewish
58. Schlichter. Jewish
59. Schikolini. Jewish
60. Chklianski. Jewish
61. Levine (Pravdin). Jewish
Out of 61 members of the central committee: 5 were Russians (of whom two–Lenin and Lunacharsky–were matrilineal Jewish), 6 were Latvians, 1 was a German, 2 were Armenians, 1 was a Czech, 1 was an Imeretian (a region in Georgia), 2 were Georgians, 1 was a Karaim (Turkic speaking people in Crimea), 1 was a Ukrainian, and 41 were Jewish.
Composition of the first Politburo (formed in October 1917) of the central executive committee of the Bolshevik party:
1. Lenin. Constituted himself Russian. Matrilineal Jewish
2. Rosenfeld (Kamenev). Jewish
3. Apfelbaum (Zinoviev). Jewish
4. Sokolnikov (Brilliant). Jewish
5. Bronstein (Trotsky). Jewish
6. Dzhugashvili (Stalin). Georgian
7. Bubnov. Russian
Out of 7 members of the Politburo, 1 was a Russian, 1 was a Georgian, 1 was a matrilineal Jewish constituting himself Russian, and 4 were Jewish.
NOTE: I shamelessly copied the above lists from a very knowledgeable compatriot, John: at an Armenian-American news site we both visit and comment frequently.
Bolshevik psychopath Stalin, an ethnic Georgian, murdered and exiled (one way ticket) to Siberia millions of people of Soviet Union.
And since ethnic Russians were the super-majority of the Union, his victims were mostly ethnic Russians/Slavs.
Stalin’s right hand man and number #1 henchman, Beria, was also ethnic Georgian.
During the attempted coup against Yeltsin (ethnic Russian) in 1993, the man leading the coup attempt was one Ruslan Khasbulatov.
He had risen to the position of Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR/Russian Federation.
Essentially the #2 man in the government.
Ruslan Khasbulatov is a Muslim Chechen. Chechens are maybe 1.5 million in a nation of about 145 million (about 80% ethnic Russian).
If the coup had succeeded, a Muslim Chechen would have become the leader of Russian Federation at that time, a predominantly Orthodox Christian nation.
Imagine a Christian being the leader of a predominantly Muslim nation: the Earth would stop spinning.
It goes to show how really – what is the word ? – “too nice”, “naïve”, “too accommodating”, ….Russian/Slav people are to allow themselves to be (mis)ruled by non-Slavs.
Also, that ordinary Russian/Slav foot-soldiers obediently carried out orders of non-Slavs to murder fellow Slavs in such enormous numbers.
As a non-Slav – that one is beyond my comprehsion.
Side note: an attempted Bolshevik/Communist revolution and takeover attempt in Germany (1918-1919) was crushed by German nationalist Freikorps.
As to the original question about Politburo: have no stats, but the above facts should at the minimum strongly question the claimed 75%.
Actually, you have received a good argument but preferred to answer with unnecessary insults. Cannot stomach the obvious results of the “democracies on the march?”
Before anyone accuses me of defending the Eastern Block, I just want to dispel the mythomania of the Western propaganda. Eastern Block was not good. Soviet Union was not good. Both had huge faults. This is why they are not around any more. Russia was not occupied by Soviet Union, as I wrote, but it did not occupy or always dominate the other national of the Soviet Union. The truth is much more nuanced than a lame Western brain could comprehend. I took an extreme position regarding Russia in both only to contrast the simplistic propaganda BS emanating from the Western Brainwashing MSM. It is just funny how the Western propagandists and their trolls are desperately trying to put an equality sign in the minds of its peoples between Soviet Union and Russia, and are making even Stalin and his pogroms Russian, milking any bad association for propaganda no matter how untrue it is.
The appointment of a completely discredited US agent Saakashvili to a leadership position in Ukraine’s East is a clear sign that the US will continue confrontation in Ukraine. The 30-year civil war is on track, Second Holodomor will follow, Russian “guilt” will be a historical fact (again).
I love it too. Not only are you so poorly educated to know what belongs to who, then also you spew the standard Western myth that Soviet Union was Russia-dominated. This myth was originally developed by the US propaganda machine during the dissolution of the Eastern Block. It was wrapped up into the victimhood of the “oppressed nations” of the Eastern Block. The purpose of the myth was to explain why they must join EU and NATO – because they are “free” now. This same myth has later been applied to the constituent parts of the former Soviet Union, such as Ukraine and Georgia. After NATO has swallowed and devoured all Eastern Block countries, it has occupied several of the former Soviet Union republics (via Western military advisers and puppet governments) and is now right at Russia’s border.
Your figure of 75% of Politburo being Russian, I strongly suspect, comes from the same propaganda kitchen which cooked up all the other BS that you and the other Western regime lapdogs spew. I do not have such information and would love any Russians or citizens of the former USSR to provide reliable information.
Regarding how oppressed the Eastern Block nations were, it was very interesting to read a few years ago that some 42% of Germans thought that East Germany was a good way to live. On top of this, the economics indicators in all Eastern European countries which joined EU and NATO are absolutely catastrophic. Nobody even bothers to ask those nations now – did you live better under the “oppression” of the Eastern Block or under the “freedom” of NATO (the US tool for the control of Europe, which is evolving into a tool for the control of the World).
Just look at Greece which was not even a part of the Eastern Block. Of course, it is all Greek’s fault, according to Western media.
Absolutely the same “freedom” awaits the Ukrainians. One of the biggest problems of Communism was that it thought people to expect someone else to provide (similar as Western Social Democracy). Many of those dumbwits of Maidan expected that US and EU will share their riches with Ukraine and that only the ethnic Russians of Ukraine stand in the way: go kill those Russians in Eastern Ukraine and you will live happily ever after (Odessa as dress rehearsal). But the West is up to its neck in financial and economic troubles and it has nothing to share, even if it wanted to. Ukraine will have a “30-year-civil-war” during and after which a famine will come, the second Holodomor. Then Russia will be “guilty” again, instead of NATO which turned Ukrainians against each other just like the Nazis did in the previous century.
You are an Internet nobody who can’t even respond to with an actual argument.
People in the leading US military magazines (and I don’t mean some internet-based blogs), certainly don’t think so, since publish me but, sure, whatever floats your boat.
Exactly how someone without a counterargument would respond. Appeal to authority.
Yes, exactly. In serious academic world it is called both reference materials and bibliography. This is exactly how you make an argument–appealing to authority on the issue. Just to give you example, if you open any serious work on any subject, in the end of the book you will find bibliography and commentaries. Quotes are used very often to “appeal” to the authority.
nerd
Yes, I am nerd. In fact, very often I characterize myself as a book worm. On the issues of warfare, military history and geopolitics I, certainly, am one. I also can tell a lot about these subjects from my own experience but I doubt you will understand. Can you imagine me making a counter-argument appealing to….myself;-)
Ha love it. Responds to a post about the intrinsic Russian lack of accountability with you guessed shrieking aggression and a refusal to accept accountability. You claim to not be Russian, but you sure have assimilated the national characteristics.
The Soviet Union was dominated by ethnic Russians. That some of the Soviet premiers were not ethnically Russian does not obviate that fact. Something like 75 percent of the Politburo and its successors where Russian. The abysmal failures and unrelenting of the regime fall squarely on the shoulders of the sleepy eyed, empty headed Russians who will aquiese to any evil so long as their bellies are full and pride massaged.
The Soviet Union was radically different at different times. During the horrible 1920s and 1930s it was dominated by Russians, Jews, Latvians, and Georgians - an international gang. But even if it was dominated by Russians, it was not chosen by Russians. Bolsheviks (unlike Nazis in Germany) did not win an election. They hijacked the country during a chaotic time, and solidified their grip on power through unprecedented terror. The Soviet Union in its genocidal incarnation (Lenin and Stalin times) was no more a product or "responsibility" of the Russian people than the 9-11 attacks were a reflection of the planes' passengers.
The Soviet Union was dominated by ethnic Russians.
Exactly how someone without a counterargument would respond. Appeal to authority. I know history what I can’t figure out is where your unconstrained egoism comes from. You are an Internet nobody who can’t even respond to with an actual argument. Pathetic. Delusions of grandeur and spittle are no substitutes for logic and facts nerd.
People in the leading US military magazines (and I don't mean some internet-based blogs), certainly don't think so, since publish me but, sure, whatever floats your boat.
You are an Internet nobody who can’t even respond to with an actual argument.
Yes, exactly. In serious academic world it is called both reference materials and bibliography. This is exactly how you make an argument--appealing to authority on the issue. Just to give you example, if you open any serious work on any subject, in the end of the book you will find bibliography and commentaries. Quotes are used very often to "appeal" to the authority.
Exactly how someone without a counterargument would respond. Appeal to authority.
Yes, I am nerd. In fact, very often I characterize myself as a book worm. On the issues of warfare, military history and geopolitics I, certainly, am one. I also can tell a lot about these subjects from my own experience but I doubt you will understand. Can you imagine me making a counter-argument appealing to....myself;-)
nerd
The similarities are superficial: physical acts of seizing buildings. But on the one hand such acts were blessed by winners of the popular vote in the previous national election, during protests attracting over 100,000 people, with the support of a plurality of the national population and easy majority of the local population. On the other hand, in Donbas, the acts were conducted forces who had never won any election, who had far less national and far less local support. And there is difference between foreign financing and advice, and actually foreigners leading the movement. Donbas actions were like a parody of Maidan.
The seizure of buildings and the defying of the government began with the Maidanites. Who were financed and directed by the US State Department and foreign NGOs.
You do realize that nobody in Ukraine felt that Yanukovich was going to run a free election (that he would certainly lose, and lose to people who promised to prosecute him) and that giving him time would simply allow him to better vet and beef up his security apparatus, or to come up with some other scheme to circumvent the elections.
You’ve said before that the leaders of the Maidan got a lot of support in parliamentary elections. But the fact that they violently seized power means that they thought they’d lose the next presidential election. Which was going to be held in a few months I think. If they thought that they had the support of the majority, if they thought that they had a good chance of winning the presidency, they wouldn’t have gone ahead with the coup. They would have simply waited for Yanukovich’s term to end.
“You do realize that nobody in Ukraine felt that Yanukovich was going to run a free election (that he would certainly lose, and lose to people who promised to prosecute him) and that giving him time would simply allow him to better vet and beef up his security apparatus, or to come up with some other scheme to circumvent the elections.”
As someone who has whole-heartedly supported a violent coup you have no credibility and no standing to criticize the degree of freeness of any elections anywhere ever. Whatever Yanukovich’s commitment to democracy was, it was higher that of the junta, which you support. Unlike the junta Yanukovich participated in zero violent overthrows of a legitimate government.
And if anyone could have the standing to call Yanukovich’s government illegitimate, it would be some naive, wide-eyed, literal-minded believer in the ideals of democracy and the rule of law, not a supporter of bloody coups, violent crackdowns on dissent and terroristic shelling of civilians like you.
You’re so blind to how your “arguments” might look from outside of the Ukro-echo-chamber that you even included the phrase “to circumvent the elections” in the above comment. The junta circumvented the elections. Yanukovish’s term wasn’t over. And you applauded them circumventing the elections.
I never supported a violent coup. What you falsely claim was a coup was a popular revolution involving the support of the winners of the previous parliamentary popular vote, against a guy who after having won an election legitimately, then illegally and without the support of the people usurped all power over the country.
As someone who has whole-heartedly supported a violent coup you have no credibility and no standing to criticize the degree of freeness of any elections anywhere ever.
Nonsense. Soon after coming to power the "junta" ran elections in which the winners of the popular vote actually got power. Yanukovich never did that.
Whatever Yanukovich’s commitment to democracy was, it was higher that of the junta
Your stupidity is only exceeded by your lack of education. Khurschev was an Ukrainian, Chernobyl is Ukraininan.
One could make an argument that Chernobyl was a result of a sick Soviet political, social and economic system, which would then extend the responsibility over all nationalities of the Soviet Union. But to blame everything that happened in the former Soviet Union on the Russians can only be done by a hate-blinded moron.
If you knew anything about what you are writing about, then you would know that most communist countries suffered from national de-majorization. In other words, a larger nationality was always surpressed in decisions making to favor smaller nationalities in the union. Under such, Russia had much less say about how Chernobyl was operated than Latvia for example. Therefore, I would not lay all the blame for Chernobyl on Ukraine, but if you blame it solely on Russia – see my comments above about the hate-blinded morons.
Such irony. You can't even spell Khrushchev, and of course he wasn't Ukrainian. He was born in Russia to Russian parents, and moved to Ukraine at age 14:
Your stupidity is only exceeded by your lack of education. Khurschev was an Ukrainian
Good to know that you are a psychoanalyst of the whole countries.
Regarding Ukraine, it “lost” territory which one of its own thieves (Khurschev) has grabbed off Russia during the Soviet occupation of Russia, when such territorial thievery was possible and common. Crimea was recently returned to its rightful owner. As long as Russia can defend it, it is not coming back to the U.S. controlled Ukraine. NEVER.
Legally, Ukrane’s ownership of Crimea is as strong as the U.S. ownership of Iraq, for example. occupied is not owned.
I’m in Split, Croatia at the moment and the gay pride parade only managed a turnout of 100 people, most of whom were politicians and activists from Sweden, Holland, the USA and the UK. 400 cops in riot gear to protect 100 people who for the third year running were IGNORED by everyone in the city.
The gays are upset at the lack of attention that they received and many have declared the pride parade a miserable failure.
The widely-accepted shunning strategy has been successful in Split after some global backlash from a few years back when local families showed up to pelt the professional gays with eggs. The gays were much more provocative that year, wearing Communist Partisan uniforms and iconography.
No one pays attention to them anymore, and they’re upset.
“All free nations are vainglorious, but national pride is not displayed by all in the same manner. The Americans in their intercourse with strangers appear impatient of the smallest censure and insatiable of praise. The most slender eulogium is acceptable to them; the most exalted seldom contents them; they unceasingly harass you to extort praise, and if you resist their entreaties they fall to praising themselves. It would seem as if, doubting their own merit, they wished to have it constantly exhibited before their eyes. Their vanity is not only greedy, but restless and jealous; it will grant nothing, whilst it demands everything, but is ready to beg and to quarrel at the same time. If I say to an American that the country he lives in is a fine one, “Ay,” he replies, “there is not its fellow in the world.” If I applaud the freedom which its inhabitants enjoy, he answers, “Freedom is a fine thing, but few nations are worthy to enjoy it.” If I remark the purity of morals which distinguishes the United States, “I can imagine,” says he, “that a stranger, who has been struck by the corruption of all other nations, is astonished at the difference.” At length I leave him to the contemplation of himself; but he returns to the charge, and does not desist till he has got me to repeat all I had just been saying. It is impossible to conceive a more troublesome or more garrulous patriotism; it wearies even those who are disposed to respect it.”
Alexis De Tocqueville, Democracy In America, Chapter 3.16 “Why The National Vanity Of The Americans Is More Restless And Captious Than That Of The English”.
P.S. Learn US history, you may get some idea but I don’t hold my breath.
http://mashable.com/2015/06/05/ukraines-poroshenko-supports-pride-parade-in-kiev/
Yup. Homo parade is the victory march of globo-Zio-imperialism.
Ukraine fell under Jew rule, and the first thing it endorses is the homo parade. Another nation fallen to the Soros-Adelson-Nuland Empire.
Victory parade masquerading as ‘victims’ rights’.
Jews are so clever.
This is too much coming from a Russia lap dog. Russia has never taken responsibility for any action in its history. Even Chernoybl it tried feverish to blame on someone else.
Many a gullible Russians bursted with pride when tubby Krushchev slammed his shoe on the table and wheezingly leered “We will crush you.” Poor gullible Russians always so boastful with so little to boast about.
True. In fact, this set of attitudes--a bizarre combination of the contempt for Slavs (especially Russians) and complex of inferiority--is a defining feature of US, and, to a degree Anglo-Saxon, "elites". The genesis of this combination could be a very good subject of the research for some post-graduate paper, but knowing intellectual "level" of contemporary humanities' "thought" in US, I wouldn't hold my breath.
The point of his comment was the subtext that Western Europeans are better than Slavs, despite their total faggotry and refusal to stand up for their own people in light of massive immigration.
What inferiority complex? Mid-grade psychoanalysis is your bread and butter, but this is completely at odds with reality. The Anglo-Saxon elite believes it is superior in every important way to Russia.
If Russia had taken on the cast of mind that Solhenitsyn (I’m well aware of your hatred for him so spare us) had urged it to assume, as a counterpoint to Western materialism in his Harvard Commencement speech, I’d probably have some reservations about this judgement. but as it is a thin gossamer of caeseropapism over a decadently materialistic society isn’t even as spiritually robust as Bible Belt Christianity.
You think Russia is superior, Karin thinks so as well but no member of the Western elite is even the slightest bit troubled by an inferiority complex towards Russia. Why would they be? In every metric that matters to them the West blows Russia away. Maybe those metrics are the wrong ones, but they certainly don’t think so.
A weak country can expect to get gains from escalating a conflict and drawing in great powers. Ukraine has the choice of accepting things as they are, which would mean accepting lost territory, or rolling the dice to make things fluid. Saakashvili being brought in shows they want to provoke Russia.
Whats exactly is the cause of your irritation with the Karlin paper?
Here are two more points of the paper, on which you seem to agree:
1. explaining the colossal indecency of Saakishvilly appointment by the US puppet Poroschenko
2. highlighting the US desire to have an ongoing conflict on a Russian border, Ukraine be damned
Yeah, yeah, Western hypocrisy. The gift that never stops giving. Lucky for Karlin otherwise he might have to come up with something faintly original for once.
Didn’t you see the first comment here?
AK Edit: Please take offtopic/ill-informed WN comments elsewhere. Thanks.
Do you still think that Karlin is ‘on your side’ or on the side of the West?
AK Edit: Here is his deleted comment if anyone is interested. I am lax about censorship and unlike most Unz articles you don’t even need preapproval to comment here but I do want some minimal level of quality.
And the Martians started the War of the Worlds. Many gullible Westerners ran away from their homes when Orson Wales broadcast the radio show.
When did a bully not claim that the victim made him do it? When did not a Western colonialist blame his victim for starting his war of occupation?
“Many of the men”.
How many ?
What percentage ?
“Many” doesn’t say anything.
In any case, the following sources contradict your rosy assessment of the manpower situation for the Kiev junta.
—–
[Dysfunctional Ukrainian Military]
http://www.globalresearch.ca/dysfunctional-ukrainian-military/5453239
.
[The president raised the age of military reservists up to 57 years]
(in Russian: Google translate does an acceptable job…)
http://www.ostro.org/general/society/news/470688/
{President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko has issued a decree number 274/2015 “On Amendments to the “Regulations on the passage of Ukrainian citizens service in the military reserve of the Armed Forces of Ukraine” . This was reported on the official website of the President.
According to the decree, in particular, the age of conscription military reservists increased from 40 to 57 years. }
.
[The Draft Dodgers of Ukraine]
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/18/the-draft-dodgers-of-ukraine-russia-putin/
——
I am impressed that young Ukrainian men are smart enough not to get into situations where they have to kill their ethnic kin (or be killed) for the glory of PorkyFührer, or Neo-Nazis, or corrupt oligarchs who have 3 or 4 passports (…read: when the fit hits the shan, they’ll pack up and flee to a nice safe country, while young men will be dead or crippled for nothing…. Their liquid wealth is already safely out of Ukraine no doubt).
Actually, manpower is not an issue anymore for the Ukrainian state thanks to the ruined economy.
Many of the men who lost their jobs as a result of the current de-industrialisation of Ukraine have joined the army or other forces for the sake of pay.
Serbia started WW1
Actually it is much less, although there are class differences. Educated Russians generally do not swear, and if they do it is mostly only in male company.
Well maybe it’s outdated but I read some time ago that Russians use obscenities around women more than westerners.
GOPNIK PRIDE WORLD WIDE
Lyashko is reliably called a faggot in every single Ukrainian discussion about him regardless of political stripe LOL. I report on it.
Well maybe it’s outdated but I read some time ago that Russians use obscenities around women more than westerners.
Actually it is much less, although there are class differences. Educated Russians generally do not swear, and if they do it is mostly only in male company.
Ukraine is not able to conduct any war, but it could start escalating and major powers will be forced to give support.
Well maybe it’s outdated but I read some time ago that Russians use obscenities around women more than westerners.
Find the trailer park nearest to you and observe plain white trash communications, especially women.
Well maybe it’s outdated but I read some time ago that Russians use obscenities around women more than westerners. Anyway, use of fuck and faggot does not add to your credibility in many people’s book. It makes you seem overly aggressive.
Find the trailer park nearest to you and observe plain white trash communications, especially women.
Well maybe it’s outdated but I read some time ago that Russians use obscenities around women more than westerners.
Actually it is much less, although there are class differences. Educated Russians generally do not swear, and if they do it is mostly only in male company.
Well maybe it’s outdated but I read some time ago that Russians use obscenities around women more than westerners.
Most Western “indices” and economic data processing “analyses” are fraud. The biggest fraud is the way GDP calculated–an inevitable result of the DE-industrialization and of the dominance of financial and service sectors.
Empty insults from someone with nasty obsessions:
http://www.unz.com/isteve/freeman-dyson-scientist-spies-arent-so-bad/#comment-909082
The decision to fire Kolomoysky was reportedly made by the US State Department.
The whole Ukrainian mess is a product of US State Dept and White House Administration’s complete loss of touch with the reality, add here Germany and voila’. Ukraine doesn’t have any geopolitical subjectivity–she is a pawn.
The point of his comment was the subtext that Western Europeans are better than Slavs, despite their total faggotry and refusal to stand up for their own people in light of massive immigration.
True. In fact, this set of attitudes–a bizarre combination of the contempt for Slavs (especially Russians) and complex of inferiority–is a defining feature of US, and, to a degree Anglo-Saxon, “elites”. The genesis of this combination could be a very good subject of the research for some post-graduate paper, but knowing intellectual “level” of contemporary humanities’ “thought” in US, I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Ukraine is not able to conduct any war considering the draft situation and the ruined economy. You are correct that appointment of Saakishvilli (the damaged goods) is a provocation and a clear sign that the Empire of Federal Reserve needs desperately to weaken RF, by any means possible including “local” nuclear conflict. Plutocracy gives orders, the vassal states and high-positioned servants obey.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/01/28/ukrainians-grow-unwilling-to-serve-in-the-army-media.html
http://www.focus-economics.com/countries/ukraine
1. explaining the colossal indecency of Saakishvilly appointment by the US puppet Poroschenko?
2. highlighting the US desire to have an ongoing conflict on a Russian border, Ukraine be damned?
3. exposing the evergreen hypocrisy of “democracies on the march,” US-style?
To me, Kolomoyskyi looks a lot like George R. R. Martin, creator of Game of Thrones. It’s a very apt coincidence.