A plan championed by House and Senate Republicans to fix the Kansas Public Employees Retirement System will cost the state $10.9 billion more than the repair passed last session, individuals against the proposal said Tuesday.
The figure comes from the state’s actuary and is included in reports from the KPERS Study Commission. The 13-member special commission was formed in 2011 to fix the pension for state, school and local government workers, which serves 290,000 Kansans. KPERS currently carries an actuarial deficit of $8.3 billion through 2033.
The plan working its way through the House and Senate attempts to fill that gap, which is known as an “unfunded actuarial liability” — or how much more the system has to pay out than what it will likely take in during the next 30 years.
The plan was proposed by Sen. Jeff King, R-Independence, who served as chairman of the KPERS Study Commission. Eight members of the commission recommended King’s plan, and five voted against it.
King’s plan leaves the current network in place for employees with at least five years of service by January 2014. It also allocates hundreds of millions of tax dollars to stabilize the system and eliminates the unique benefits available to legislators.
A central strategy of the proposal is to create a 401(k)-style pension plan for new employees and workers not vested by January 2014. Employees who haven’t worked five years before then would be enrolled in a defined-contribution plan, which would require employees to contribute 6 percent of their salary each year. The state would match that contribution as much as 5 percent — 1 percent in the first year and half a percent in each year following that. Employees then wouldn’t get the maximum employer contribution until they have worked with the state for eight years.
State contributions, however, go into a separate coffer that isn’t guaranteed an interest rate — meaning employees aren’t guaranteed to earn money on it.
Opposers Tuesday said King’s plan does nothing to address the $8.3 billion gap, won’t save the state money and doesn’t provide livable retirement plans.
“Nobody wins with this plan,” labor lawyer Rebecca Proctor said during a conference call Tuesday. “There is no valid reason to vote for it.”
Proctor wrote the KPERS Study Commission’s minority report, which was signed by five commission members, including Sen. Laura Kelly, D-Topeka.
Kelly, who joined Proctor on the conference call, said she and others who oppose the plan will be educating legislators about its shortfalls in the hopes of finding a real solution to the problem.
“There is no way that anyone can look at the facts of the plan and conclude that it is in anybody’s interest to switch” from the current plan to King’s plan, she said.
The bill still is gaining traction, Kelly said, because of a flawed ideology.
“There are some folks who firmly believe that public employees should have the same type of retirement plan that corporate America has, and they are just bound and determined to make the switch,” she said.
That line of thinking is flawed, she said, because the corporate world differs from the public sector on multiple levels, including the scope of work, the culture and the level of income.
The average public employee works 22 years on a salary less than $40,000 before retirement, she said. That doesn’t leave them much to save while they are raising a family, she said. That is why public employees need more in retirement to make sure they can survive.
King wasn’t available for comment Tuesday afternoon.
The plan’s deficiencies will have dramatic effects on state employees — including police officers, said Peter Fogarty, president of the Fraternal Order of Police for the state of Kansas.
“These officers simply will not be able to survive after they retire,” said Fogarty, who also was on Tuesday’s conference call.
That means officers will stay on the force longer, a conclusion that isn’t safe for the officers or the public, Fogarty said.
“Do you really want a 65-year-old officer out there patrolling your neighborhood? It just doesn’t make any sense,” he said.
Fogarty also said he worries about officers leaving the profession and the state’s ability to recruit quality officers as a result of the proposal, which he described as ”just ridiculous.”
Comments (33)
Who gets the interest?
5% is the max the state will contribute, and the employee doesn’t get any interest off of it. And it doesn’t show up to the employee. Sounds like bull to me. Who gets the interest off the 5% for 20 or 30 years of service? Every private sector job I have ever had they gave 6%, I gave 6% and the money went right into my account. If stocks go down I lose both of our moneys if stocks go up I get the interest off both of our moneys. So in reality we are setting up a retirement plan that is worse than most private sector jobs out there.
When I say private sector jobs, I know little ma and pa stores don’t have a retirement fund. But most big companies do.
This is Crazy
At least put the money in a CD where it will at least earn interest.
This plan is like taking all your money to the casino and thinking
you are going to retire the next day on your winnings.
This is smoke and mirrors legislation.
You're doing a heck of a job Brownie!
What?
The average public employee works 22 years on a salary less than $40,000 before retirement, she said. That doesn’t leave them much to save while they’re raising a family, she said. That’s why public employees need more in retirement to make sure they can survive. The average public retiree makes about $40,000, she said.
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So are puplic employees retiring with only 22 years service? The average pay in Kansas is $39,000. It doesn't sound like they are doing all that bad.
As for 65 year old officers - maybe they will be sober when they answer the call instead of out partying with their buddies.
Speaking of Casinos
The first state casino made over $36 million and Kansas now has 4 State casinos. If all 4 are as successful as the first the state of Kansas will have over $100 million annually to either invest or help with Kansas debt/ pension funds.
After the Governor pays off the parking garage bond with Casino funds then future state casino revenue should pay down state debt including debt owed to cheated veterans and further public education ,transportation and parks.
Kansas Police and Fire
What is this about KP&F? I have not heard that KP&F was included in this bill. If so, what about the Judges?????
Also, if KPERS goes away where does that leave all the other employeers who have KPERS? Will the state find a program for them to participate in or will they be out there like carcuses on the prairie; just waiting for the financial buzzards to pick?
No winners - don't you think the financial buzzards and other carion eaters will prosper??
Just my opinion.....
KP&F is not part of the madness-
The Kansas Police and Firefighter Retirement system is solvent and not part of the KPERS mess.
What I think he is referring to are the small towns and sheriffs offices where officers work under KPERS instead of KP&F. Agencies have to enroll in KP&F, participation is not mandatory or automatic.
The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Robert Peel
Typical Government Committee Solution
Fix a program with an estimated $8.3 billion deficit by ADDING an additional $10.9 billion to the cost of the program AND screw the employees at the same time!
Somebody needs to get a clue. At least 5 members of the committee seem to have some common sense. Let's hope they can educate the legislators in time to stop this madness.
More bad news the koch boys are at it again..........
Compact would take Kansas out of federal Medicaid and Medicare programs
TOPEKA — Kansas legislators are being urged to join a multistate compact formed to challenge the federal government’s authority to set health policy.
The measures – including the one being considered in Kansas, House Bill 2520 – are based on model legislation promoted by the American Legislative Exchange Council, a nonprofit, pro-business organization that includes state legislators – mostly conservative Republicans – and businesses as members.
http://www.khi.org/news/2012/feb/07/compact-would-take-kansas-out-federa...
Contraception use reduces need for abortion, so you'd think anti-choicers would embrace it. But fact is, they just hate sex.
Kansas Legislator Pensions Inflated More Than Ten Fold
Comparing pensions
A legislator retiring with an annualized pay of $85,820.52, and with 10 years' service, would have an annual KPERS benefit of $15,018.60, for a monthly benefit of $1,251.55, according to KPERS. If the retiring legislator had 20 years' service, the annual benefit would be $30,037.20, and monthly, $2,503.10.
The News asked some KPERS retirees about their pension benefits. Their answers varied widely.
A state employee who was a supervisor for juveniles on probation retired after 34 years with an annual benefit of about $25,000. A municipal wastewater treatment plant superintendent, with 24 years' service, estimated the earned benefit at $2,300 to $2,400 monthly.
A state social services worker in a supervisory role retired in 1995 after 15 years and draws a monthly KPERS benefit of $524. That is equal to the monthly benefit for a county-level commercial appraiser who retired at 65, vested at nine years with KPERS.
http://hutchnews.com/Todaystop/kpers-and-leg-2--2
Contraception use reduces need for abortion, so you'd think anti-choicers would embrace it. But fact is, they just hate sex.
Aly?
You say the average public retiree makes about $40,000? That isnt even close, when these folks retire they make maybe 1/2 of what they did when working full time. I know many retirees that get maybe $1,200 per month when they retire on kpers and thats after 25-30 years. They only way they survive if to stay on until social securiy kicks in.
It is apparent that the Brownback administration and his cronies hate public employees and will do nothing to help public employees or their families. This is the 4th year in a row with no pay increases for any state employees while city, school districts and countys continue to provide rewards for their employees such as cost of living, longevity, or merit raises. It is shameful that the commander in chief hates his fellow employees so much that he will not provide adequate wages or benefits. There are some great representatives and senators out there that need to stand up and introduce a pay bill this session to help our classified state employees some of them havent seen a raise since they scrapped the state pay plan 9 years ago.
I would gladly pay more taxes to reward some of these folks that deserve better from our so called leaders!
KP&F safe for now, but what about all the others
I did not think that KP&F was being closed out but the article was unclear. But the question remains, what about all the others, for instance city workers?
Will they be placed in some undefined plan that has been given no consideration? Who will setup, define, and fund the plan?
As the state goes to a more entreprenural system, then their system will be more like a market based economic venture. The employee will sell their services to the highest bidder. There will be more public servants that sell confidential information for a place at the table.
Anyone dealt with the Mexican government lately?
Just my opinion.....
I believe Aly was unclear
I believe that Aly was unclear. I believe she meant that the average state employee was being paid $40,000. as a salary.
KPERS is generally figured at (Final average salary) X (years of credited service) X (0.0175)
Years of credited service does not equal years worked because for many the initial year of service was not credited unless the employee purchased the year after joining KPERS. Other issues may have caused the employee to have a greater number of years worked than years of credited service.
The mulitplier, 1.75% is not uiversal. It may be as low as 1%.
$40,000 X 40(yrs) X .0175 + $28,000
Just my opinion.....
Liberal Fanatic
"So are puplic employees retiring with only 22 years service"
To retire from KPERS, you must be either (1) aged 65, (2) aged 62 with 10 years of KPERS-covered employment, or (3) have 85 points (age plus years in KPERS-covered employment, so for example a 55-year-old with 30 years at the state is eligible).
In other words, a 62-year-old with 22 years of public employment would be eligible, but that would be the earliest age s/he could receive KPERS benefits. Somebody who started with the state right out of high school (aged 19) and bought back their first year could retire as early as age 52 (52 + 33 years = 85).
KPERS retirement benefits are figured strictly on average salary times years of employment, so under the best scenario somebody retiring with 22 years service would draw 22 * 1.75%, or 38.5%, of their final average salary, with no COLA. (The lack of any cost-of-living adjustments means that even moderate levels of inflation will swiftly erode the value of that benefit: 3.5% inflation, close to the long-term average in this country, will cut the value in half over 20 years.)
Kansas legislators get credit for working 372 days a year.
Although Kansas legislators work part time and are paid only during the 90 legislative session and days their committees meet outside that window, lawmakers who choose to join the Kansas Public Employees Retirement System (KPERS) pay their contributions into the system as if they worked every single calendar day of the year plus one more week
Legislators are the only classification of Kansas public employee that can draw down benefits based on a annualized salary.
Kansas Legislator example
Salary: $7,979
Inflation #1: Based on 372 day year = $32,982
Inglation #2: Include $123 per diem (also for 372 days) = $45,756
Inflation #3: Include payments for expenses while not in session = $7,083
Total salary for pension calculation: $83,216
Government employees enrolled in KPERS and hired before July 1, 2009, make a 4 percent employee contribution. State employees hired after that date contribute 6 percent.
http://kansas.watchdog.org/7604/kansas-legislator-pensions-inflated-more...
Contraception use reduces need for abortion, so you'd think anti-choicers would embrace it. But fact is, they just hate sex.
cost
The plan to "fix" KPERs won't cost the government one thing dime; it will however cost the taxpayers.
I realize there is no
I realize there is no accurate sets of numbers or statistics (possibly, intentionally..to keep us confused). But, the general idea, as presented below, is likely not far off. Some variance may occur between "state, school and local" as presented in the story, and those only include KPERs-represented workers. Are there actually many more? If so, much of what I'm presenting would make things even more skewed against the private sector taxpayer (who actually covers all the taxes, since government workers use tax revenue paid to them, even when they pay taxes...and corporations just pass them along, so don't really pay much of anything.)
BTW, I do support the very wealthy INDIVIDUAL paying a bit more income tax on their earnings from "working", simplifying the tax code, and closing outrageous loopholes. That includes ALL wealthy politicians, entertainers, athletes, businessmen, etc. And, I support banning bonuses for any high-level individual involved in a publicly-traded company that is performing poorly, especially if they are laying off people or not giving raises, etc.
Anyway, Kansas population total: 2,871,238
A third of the population 16 and over is NOT in labor force, private or government.
http://www.uscensus2010data.com/20-kansas-employment-statistics-and-inco...
Not in labor force; 688,112; 31.4%
290,000 state, school and local government workers. (The story's numbers).
State, school and local workers comprise 10% of the population. Those jobs are 100% paid with tax revenue, which means their lifestyles are 100% funded by taxpayers. Even the property, sales, etc taxes they pay are actually paid by the the initial taxpayers since the money from their paychecks pays those other taxes.
Private wage and salary workers 1,062,129
About 36-37% of the population works in private industry.
Basically, a little over a third of the population who are private-sector workers are paying nearly all of the state's income tax revenue. (Unless we make so little/have deductions to pay virtually nothing.)
So, maybe a third of the population pays our own tax, and also covers the tax burdens of state employees, and everyone else who uses state government services.
Granted, anyone who pays state taxes on vehicles , etc., is contributing back into the coffers. The state workers use tax revenue paid into their paycheck to pay, and welfare-types use taxpayer funds given to them to put a little back in.
So, that leaves only...the third who are private sector employed paying for ourselves, and everyone else, to cover all state revenue.
"THAT'S WHY WE WANT TO TAX BUSINESSES!!!", the liberals will scream.
Go ahead. Tax them more. They'll just raise prices to cover it, and then we'll ALL pay more for product, while they still profit the same. It hurts most the least amongst us, who now must pay more to buy food, etc.
Tax them even MORE? Go ahead. They'll start laying off people. Or move out. Fewer taxpayers, more dependent on the fewer taxpayers' dwindling revenue.
Raise taxes on the private sector working stiffs? Sure. Drive more of them into poverty. That should equalize things in the quest for "fairness".
We NEED government workers for many things. I'm not bashing government workers, in general. They deserve to get paid fairly, and treated fairly. IF they are doing their job responsibly, and if their job is actually necessary.
Are they all? Working as efficiently as possible? All their positions necessary? Are there even things government shouldn't be involved with, that they should cut off?
We need a top to bottom review of ALL government agencies and departments. We need to determine if they are necessary under the actual responsibilities of any particular branch of government. And, any that are, we need to hold EVERY employee accountable for their performance. TOP to bottom.
We also need to find a better retirement system that is as fair to the government workers (the peoples' employees) as the system of private sector workers (the government workers' bosses and providers). Not better, not worse.
The third of us can likely afford to cover the entire lifestyle of every necessary and responsible government worker who does their job well, while they work. I won't complain about that. We can even likely afford to kick in a little toward their retirement, up until a reasonable retirement age. (NOT retiring at 57!) (Actually, if they'd save more instead of buying stuff to keep up with Jones, they'd have more...and that is actually supplied by the taxpayers, already.) We just can't afford to fund 20..30...40 years of retired non-workers. And, if they are contributing part of their paycheck toward it (supplied by the third, anyway) and it takes those funds to keep the Ponzi scheme afloat, the only way to cover more and more early retirees is to hire more and more government workers to chip in. Which means, eventually, more and more will be eligible for early retirement, at the expense of the third.
Which also means, the third gets hit even harder by paying for more government workers. OR, EVERYONE gets hit by raising taxes, which raises prices for EVERYTHING, and the third gets a double whammy, because they will pay higher income taxes AND higher prices. Driving many to the poorhouse. Which will necessitate more government workers to handle the load. It's a downward spiral.
The simple concept/difficult solution is to trim government. No...not "trim". Start clear-cutting. Cut the size and scope. Get rid of non-essential departments and agencies, and get rid of under-performers.
Stop the wasteful spending on nonsense, so there is money for necessities.
Draw private-sector companies to create a LOT of jobs...many to be filled by ex-government workers, who will now be tax-revenue positive, instead of negative, and won't burden the third with paying for 40 years of retirement.
More revenue, less spent = more prosperity for all. More jobs begets more jobs, which reduces the need for government assistance. Which creates even more revenue, and less spending.
Do we NEED this much government? Is every employee of ours the best there is, and most efficient? Do our employees deserve more than we by forcing us to pay for greatly-extended retirement, while most of us have to slave away to the bitter end to pay for ours AND theirs, and because we've already been paying theirs...we have less?
Maybe it's time to clean out the attic. And the basement. And the garage. And....
Assignment: Provide an example of a pleonasm.
"Liberal hypocrisy".
Grade: A+
Hard to feel sorry for public employees
Throw them all into the Social Security bucket, and let them enjoy the same wonderful benefits they require us to enjoy...and not until age 62 or 65
Fair is Fair
How many times have we bailed out KPERS? the same number of times that Social Security has been bailed out? Is the KPERS pension called an "entitlement"? Payroll deductions for FICA and Medicare are put into our own separate accounts? Right? just like public employees? Right?
Why
By kansastaxpayer | 02/07/12 - 05:06 pm
You say the average public retiree makes about $40,000? That isnt even close, when these folks retire they make maybe 1/2 of what they did when working full time. I know many retirees that get maybe $1,200 per month when they retire on kpers and thats after 25-30 years. They only way they survive if to stay on until social securiy kicks in.
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What is it about being a public employee that makes them think they should retire at age 52 or 55? Most of the people I know don't retire until at least 65, several until age 70. According to labor statistics the average public employee make a little over 40K a year - the average "private" employee makes just under $39,000. So they get paid more, work less and retire earlier. I guess when you have it that good you ***** about anything.
...entitlement??? what are you smoking gramma? go back to sleep
"As Kansans we live by two basic rules: work hard and play by the rules. Kansas public employees have kept their word, never missing a contribution to their retirements. KPERS underfunding is the result of state failure."
Hey gramma, the State has failed to contribute their promised share into KPERS. State or public employees can not choose to opt out of their payments. From each paycheck these hard working employees contribute their share to their retirement plan. Your State government has failed to fully meet it's obligation. Why don't you quit ignorantly maligning the public employees retirement plan, and direct your diatribe against those in State government that have not delivered as promised.
"It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." --Abraham Maslow
no new ?
Keep something in mind when your throwing those numbers around. We pay taxes also. Federal, State, Property, Sales.
We did not have any choices, it was KPERS, period and Automatic deduction from your salary. No options.
The City and County workers fund is ok. The Judges fund is ok. KP&F is ok. the fund that is short is the State workers and School employees.
Doesn't look like there's much difference
in the average wages/retirement pay of private vs. public. What I notice is the years of service requirements. I've been at my job for 23 years. I can't retire for another 15 to 20 years. There's your difference. The grass is always greener on the other side. Or maybe those that don't have it so bad just bichtch because they want more fertilizer.
Nunya
Based on your theory above, government workers do not pay any taxes because their salary that they work to earn is funded by taxes. So by extension of this same theory, the "third" who work in private business/industry do not pay any taxes either because the money they work to earn is actually provided by their employer, thus the employer is paying the taxes.
However, by your theory, the employers do not pay any taxes because their income that they work to earn is actually paid by their customers, thus the customers are paying the taxes.
So now we come full circle to the fact that all taxes are actually paid by the consumers which includes EVERYONE, private AND government employees alike.
no pay raises
Correction to kansastaxpayer:
State employees were given a COLA by Governor Sebelius--a whopping 0.5 %. That's one-half of one percent. Also, a group of employees who were the most underpaid compared to the private sector received a raise a few years ago.
Outside of that ,the rank-and-file employees have gotten NO raise for at least 7 years. How many other employee groups have gotten so little, public or private? The only reason to work for the state any more is KPERS, and that's in trouble because the Legislature didn't live up to their end of the bargain in order to give tax breaks to their cronies. As a group, the legislature has little decency and no honor.
When the economy turns around, the state will be hard-pressed to keep many of their employees, let alone hire anyone. The exodus is already starting in some areas. Outsourcing doesn't save as much as advertised, if anything, as the private sector has learned. Too bad that a disproven economic policy is all our leaders want to hear.
Not really
Outside of that ,the rank-and-file employees have gotten NO raise for at least 7 years. How many other employee groups have gotten so little, public or private? The only reason to work for the state any more is KPERS, and that's in trouble because the Legislature didn't live up to their end of the bargain in order to give tax breaks to their cronies. As a group, the legislature has little decency and no honor.
================================================================
Actually most industries in Kansas have locked in wage rates or handed out wage cuts along with pink slips.
What people fail to admit is that while the wage scale is frozen public employees are moving up the pay scale with years of service. The only people that are actually "frozen" are the people that have already topped out on the payscale. Even with the "frozen" pay scale public employees are still making more than the average Kansan.
www.bls.gov/ro7/qcewks.pdf
Much like the federal government has "frozen wages" but last year federal employees averaged higher wage increases than the private sector.
http://www.federaltimes.com/article/20101206/BENEFITS01/12060301/1001
Liberal Fanatic
"What people fail to admit is that while the wage scale is frozen public employees are moving up the pay scale with years of service."
No, what you fail to understand is that the state has not funded a "step" increase in quite a number of years--I think there's been only one since 2001. The pay scale is really frozen for all state employees.
Some city and county employees have gotten raises, yes, but their pay is set by their city council or county commission, not the state. Some other cities and counties have had pay cuts and layoffs.
When comparing "average" salaries, you also need to keep in mind that public employees as a group are older and better educated than the average in the private sector. The average Kansas state employee, for example, is in their late 40s, and older more-experienced workers do tend to earn more. Also, a greater percentage of public jobs require higher education; teaching, e.g., requires, *minimally*, a bachelor's degree, and a lot of teachers have a master's.
What people fail to admit is
What people fail to admit is that while the wage scale is frozen public employees are moving up the pay scale with years of service.
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You are misinformed. My fellow workers and I have not received a salary increase of any kind in years.
Technical
When comparing "average" salaries, you also need to keep in mind that public employees as a group are older and better educated than the average in the private sector. The average Kansas state employee, for example, is in their late 40s, and older more-experienced workers do tend to earn more. Also, a greater percentage of public jobs require higher education; teaching, e.g., requires, *minimally*, a bachelor's degree, and a lot of teachers have a master's.
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Source for that claim - that doesn't come from a union?
As for teachers - the minimum is a bachelor's degree. But the same history teacher with a master's degree is doing the exact same job as the teacher with a bachelor's degree. And since merit pay isn't allowed there's a very good chance the teacher with only a bachelor's degree is the better teacher of the two but he'll still get paid less.
Liberal Fanatic
Average age of Kansas state employees comes from the State Workforce Report prepared by the Ks Dept of Administration in 2010 http://www.da.ks.gov/ps/documents/workforce10.pdf
p. 5: average age of employees 47, average salary of classified employees ("civil service") $38,049 (for unclassified employees it is $61,830--unclassified employees are predominantly university faculty, the judicial branch, agency directors/upper management, and employees at the Attorney General's and other elected offices).
See also Characteristics and Pay of Federal Civilian Employees [ http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/78xx/doc7874/03-15-Federal_Personnel.pdf ] prepared by the Congressional Budget Office, which used data from the Current Population Survey (CPS) of the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
"In 2005, according to the CPS, 44 percent of federal workers were in management, professional, and related occupations, compared with 32 percent of private-sector workers. In the same year, the average age for federal workers was 45 in the CPS data, and the average age for private-sector employees was 40 ... Among all federal workers, 43 percent held bachelor’s degrees compared with 28 percent for all private-sector workers."
My point about teachers was not comparing baccalaureate to master-level teachers, but the comparison of university graduates to those who have not attended higher education. There are relatively few minimum-wage or just-above-minimum-wage jobs in the government, because they've mostly been outsourced. Retail clerks, waiters, manual laborers, fast-food workers, meatpackers, agricultural laborers--those kinds of jobs are rare in the public sector, and pretty common in the private sector. Yes, every agency has its share of clerks and office assistants, but most also have architects or attorneys or librarians or teachers or doctors/nurses or skilled technicians.
State pay increases
The 2012 Legislator's Briefing Book prepared by the Legislative Research Dept ( http://skyways.lib.ks.us/ksleg/KLRD/Publications/2012Briefs/X-2-StateEmp... ) has on p. 5 a table of state pay increases over the last 15 years, including both COLAs ("base adjustments") and automatic increases based on tenure ("step movement").
The last step movement was in 2007; the one before that was in 2001. The last COLA was in 2009 (two and a half percent).
Then compare the COLAs that have been given to the inflation rate (e.g., http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/historicalinflation.aspx ); in the last ten years, COLAs have exceeded inflation twice, trailed inflation five times, and been non-existent three times.