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In Germany the fan is king. The Bundesliga has the lowest ticket prices and the highest average attendance of Europe's five major leagues. At Borussia Dortmund their giant stand holds 26,000 and costs little more than £10 for admission. Clubs limit the number of season tickets to ensure everyone has a chance to see the games, and the away team has the right to 10% of the available capacity. Match tickets double as free rail passes with supporters travelling in a relaxed atmosphere in which they can sing, drink beer to wash down their sausages, and are generally treated as desirables: a philosophy English fans can only dream of.
The Bundesliga may be Europe's only fit and proper football league – the sole major domestic competition whose clubs collectively make a profit – yet no German team has won the Champions League for nine years. This success rate, though, could be about to change following Bayern Munich's advance to the semi-finals, following their thrilling disposal of Manchester United last week at Old Trafford.
"The Bundesliga as a brand, a competition, is in good shape. We have a very, very interesting competition, a stable and sustainable business model that relies on three revenue sources," the Bundesliga chief executive, Christian Seifert, tells Observer Sport. A holy trinity comprising match-day revenue (€424m), sponsorship receipts (€573m) and broadcast income (€594m) is the main contributor to the Bundesliga's €1.7bn turnover.
A glance at the continent's other major leagues confirms the state the sport is in. On these shores Portsmouth dice with extinction, while Manchester United and Liverpool build mammoth debt mountains. In Spain, where debts are just as high, La Liga players may strike because of unpaid wages in the lower divisions. The stadiums of Italy are half-filled, and in France their clubs spend more of their income (71%) on players' wages than those of any country.
Seifert says the success of the Bundesliga is because of the "core value" of the supporter coming first at its clubs. This is why tickets are kept so cheap. "Because the clubs don't ask for more money," he explains. "It is not in the clubs' culture so much [to raise prices]. They are very fan orientated. The Bundesliga has €350m less per season than the Premier League in matchday revenues. But you could not from one day to another triple prices.
"Borussia Dortmund has the biggest stand in the world. The Yellow Wall holds 26,000, and the average ticket price is €15 (£13) because they know how valuable such a fan culture and supporter base is.
"We have a very interesting situation. First, tickets are cheap. Second, many clubs limit the percentage of season tickets. For instance, Borussia Dortmund, Schalke 04, Hamburg, Bayern Munich. They want to give more fans the chance to watch games live. If you have 80%, 100% then it is all the same people in the stadium. Also in Germany the guest club has the right to 10% of the tickets for its fans."
Last season La Liga attracted an average of 28,478 fans, Ligue 1 21,034, Serie A 25,304 and the Premier League 35,592. These figures are dwarfed by the Bundesliga's average of 41,904. Its soaring attendances are matched by a balanced approach to salaries. "The crucial thing in last year's €1.7bn turnover and €30m profit was that Bundesliga clubs paid less than 50% of revenue in players wages," Seifert says. This is the continent's lowest. In 2007‑08 [the most recent available year] the Premier League paid out 62%.
All this prudent financial management is achieved despite the Bundesliga's television income being a modest €594m compared with the Premier League's lucrative return of €1.94bn. Seifert explains the disparity. "The TV market in Germany is very special. When pay-TV was introduced in 1991 the average household already received 34 channels for free. Therefore we had the most competitive free TV market in the world, so this influenced the growth of pay-TV very much. We were forced to show all of the 612 games of the Bundesliga and second Bundesliga live on pay-TV. So we have to carry the production costs of this."
No Bundesliga team has won the Champions League since Bayern Munich beat Valencia in 2001 and its last finalist was Bayer Leverkusen, eight years ago. But Seifert disputes whether the small return from television rights has been a defining factor in this record. "Money-wise, Bayern Munich is ranked in the first four clubs of Europe. And bear in mind even Chelsea, which spent a hell of a lot of money in the last years, didn't win it. Sometimes you could have the feeling that the ability to win the Champions League goes in line with your willingness to burn a hell of a lot of money. For that reason I think Uefa is on very good track with their financial fair play idea."
Deloitte's accountancy figures for the 2007-08 season show all but one Premier League club (Aston Villa) to be in debt. Compare this with the Bundesliga report for last season, which offers a markedly disappointed tone when recording that "only 11 of the 18 clubs are now in the black".
Pressed further on the lack of success in Europe's premier club competition Seifert argues for sport's cyclical nature. "At the end of the 1990s the Bundesliga was the strongest in Europe. In 1997 we had won the Champions League [Borussia Dortmund] and the Uefa Cup [Schalke]," he says.
"Then in 1999, 2001 and 2002 we were in the final at least. In those days the Premier League had more money, too. It depends not only on money but the quality you have – if it only depended on money then Porto wouldn't have played Monaco in the 2004 final."
Seifert also points to German football's success in producing its own players. This is borne out by Germany being European champions at under-17, under-19, and under-21 level. "The Bundesliga and German FA made a right decision 10 years ago when they decided that to obtain a licence to play you must run an education camp [academy]. The Bundesliga and second Bundesliga spend €75m a year on these camps.
"Five thousand players aged 12-18 are educated there, which has now made the number of under-23-year-olds in the Bundesliga 15%. Ten years ago it was 6%. This allows more money to be spent on the players that are bought, and there is a bigger chance to buy better, rather than average, players," Seifert says of a league in which the stellar performers currently include Bayern's Frank Ribéry and Arjen Robben.
"When Bayern played against Manchester United Philipp Lahm, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Holger Badstuber and Thomas Müller were all homegrown," Seifert says. "So yes, it's a cyclical environment and you have to deal with that. Therefore I'd deny that you could really say whether a league is strong or weak just because one club wins or does not win the Champions League."
Seifert's view is supported by Arsenal having followed United out of the competition last week, when Arsène Wenger's team were dismantled by Barcelona, to leave no Premier League presence in the semi-finals for the first time since 2003. And for the 2012-13 season Germany should have four places in the Champions League as by then they should have overtaken Serie A in Uefa's five-year coefficients.
Seifert also has Spain in his sights. "If we consider our financial capabilities and the stability of our business model, then the aim of the Bundesliga in the long run has got to be second place behind the Premier League," he says.
Of all the Bundesliga's regulations, the recent history of English football suggests it might have benefited most from the 50+1 rule. This states that members of a club must retain at least 51% ownership, so preventing any single entity taking control. Portsmouth are the most glaring example of how an outsider might potentially ruin a club – their administrator is currently searching for their fifth owner of this season – and the Bundesliga recently reiterated the commitment to the rule following a challenge from Hannover 96.
Martin Kind, Hannover's president, wished to change the regulation. He told Observer Sport: "The rule means the loss of many Bundesliga clubs' ability to compete nationally and internationally. And in some ways it prevents further development of German football, especially those clubs who play in the lower half of the Bundesliga as they do not have enough financial resources. The ownership rule should be abandoned or modified."
While Kind adds that his lawyers believe he has a "good chance" of winning the case when it is heard at the court of arbitration for sport this year, Seifert is proud that when the 36 clubs that comprise the Bundesliga's two divisions voted on the issue "35 were against".
There are exceptions to the 50+1 rule. Yet even these appear couched in common sense. Seifert again: "Bayer Leverkusen and Wolfsburg [whom Fulham knocked out of the Europa Cup on Thursday] are two. If a company is supporting football in a club for more than 20 years then it can acquire the majority. The idea is that a company has by then proved to fans and the league that they take their engagement in the Bundesliga seriously, that it's not just a fancy toy or part-time cash injection that [could] change from one day to another."
What the Bundesliga does allow to be transformed from one season to the next is the prospect of any and all its clubs mounting a realistic tilt at the title as Wolfsburg's triumph, the first in their 64-year history, proved last season.
"In the last three years of the Bundesliga we have three different cup winners and three different champions," Seifert says. "Sepp Herberger, the coach of the West German team that won the 1954 World Cup, said: 'You know why people go to the stadium? Because they don't know how it ends.'"
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Comments
11 April 2010 12:24AM
Can only hope that they and other teams which are run sensibly receive their day in the sun.
11 April 2010 12:37AM
don't mind the article - but why do you have to make it out to be a premier league issue in such harsh terms - maybe the bundesleaga is competitive, ticket prices sound great, winning is not the be all and end all? hard one to sell i think, for what reason have Byerrn lost their top spot - if my memory serves me they are the top club, wealthiest, best supported - won most completions - only recently it has changed?
Ticket prices are too expensive in the UK, so is the underdevelopment of new talent, but if you can make a buck, make a buck - that is only human nature i think?
11 April 2010 12:52AM
So how can the German model be implemented when greed is right at the core of the Premier League..?
11 April 2010 12:52AM
Finally a decent article after the shitty "messi love-in/wars" and whatever else of the last week!
As much as I love the bundesliga (at least compared to the premier league) I do have a couple of grievances with the league;
1. The way it's affected the lower leagues, obviously they sweep that under the carpet and just show us their shiny top division and growing second tier, but the money cut off at the third division level seems more devasting than cutting it off at second tier level like here, especially when 20% of your games in the 3. Liga are against reserve sides of the big clubs, not to mention lower divisions where it is far more than that.
I was looking at German football tables this season and once famous east german stasi club Dynamo Berlin are stuck behind Energie Cottbus reserves in their 1 up, 1 down league so will probably endure another year in the fifth tier, but as long as the Bundesliga and it's clubs are happy!
2. I've never liked the 50+1 rule as the bigger clubs will always get more for their 49%, and then the hypocrisy of allowing Bayer Leverkusen and Wolfsburg (clubs who would be in the lower divisions without this backing) to be bankrolled because Volkswagen and Bayer are "fans" is a joke too!
Why rebuff Hannover if your just gonna let Wolfsburg (Hannovers local rivals who are signifcantly smaller) buy trophies they can't sustain.
But to be fair it's about 50 billion times better than the shit we've got in England, but I still believe no country has got it anywhere near right!
Oh and bring back terracing in the top two divisions in England!
11 April 2010 12:56AM
So how can the German model be implemented when greed is right at the core of the Premier League..?
11 April 2010 12:56AM
The Bundesliga is a perfect league, although it does not have as many stars as the Premier League or La Liga it has some great football and almost always a packed stadium. Dortmund's Westfalenstadion must be a great place to watch a game of football. The ticketing policy is a great incentive to get fans coming back every other week unlike here where it is ridiculous the price even to watch a rather average game. A great league and one more people should watch. They may have no Messi but they do have a long list of quality players, with many of them featuring in the World Cup.
11 April 2010 1:08AM
Sorry, but this article smacks a little bit of sensationalism and shows the reporter's limited knowledge of finance (or, alternatively, his patronising attempt to take advantage of some readers' poor knowledge thereof):
"Deloitte's accountancy figures for the 2007-08 season show all but one Premier League club (Aston Villa) to be in debt."
Debt is NOT a bad thing, except when it's excessive, as may be the case with Portsmouth, Liverpool and Man Utd. If Villa really doesn't have debt, then they SHOULD borrow to buy better players and compete better. Basic, basic finance theory (and practice).
"Compare this with the Bundesliga report for last season, which offers a markedly disappointed tone when recording that "only 11 of the 18 clubs are now in the black".
Fallacious comparison. Being "in the black" has nothing to do with debt, since it means recording a profit. These are 2 completely different things. A club can be "in the black" and have debt at the same time; in fact, many are including Arsenal and Man Utd.
So either write correctly about finance, or don't write about it. But don't write wrong things just for the sake of adding sensationalist spice to an otherwise decent article.
11 April 2010 1:09AM
Once upon a time going to football was a day out. It was a buzz, it was a crack. We could wake up on match day have a few jars, turn up at the station and buy a ticket (yep, we could do this on the day of travel and not pay a premium for the luxury of it) get to the stadium and decide which part of the ground we wanted to go in
Not today. All the spontaneity has been kicked out of the game and we now have a game that seems to exisit purely for celebrity gossip magazines and tourists
Check out this clip from I game went to recently in Indonesia
http://jakartacasualtv.blogspot.com/2010/04/arema-v-pelita-jaya-6-1.html
Non stop noise from the terraces that started 30 minutes before kick off. Won't get that in England. Not now. Not with puffed up jobsworth stewards reminding you of the terms and conditions of entry into the stadium.Not with stuffed animals walking round the pitch. Not with logistics requiring you to prepare to go to a game two months in advance. Not with old bores who whine through the game non stop but who cares eh? 'Cos we're all customers now...
11 April 2010 1:29AM
supermj,
Your final points make me recall a Churchill quote (I think it's from him) that "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other ones." Maybe the same edict applies to forms of football governance.
Anyway, at 15 euros a ticket, even for well-supported clubs, it's no wonder they have great attendance levels. Really, why wouldn't you go attend a game when one ticket costs just as much a a few cups of coffee, rather than a family's weekly grocery bill? Add free train tickets, and the excellence of Germany's train network and it's little wonder why even travelling supporters will invest the effort to watch away games, therefore keeping overall attendances high. I think the Bundesliga also regularly records higher levels of goalscoring than other mainstream leagues.
Not only that but let's look at the competitiveness of the game. Despite Bayern's general dominance, there's been 6 different champions in the last 15 years, twice the number of the Premiership (though you can include Blackburn if you go back one more year), and it does seem a little more open than the game in England. Sure, they haven't had the best time in Europe of late, but I agree to an extent with the cyclical nature of the game. And anyway, even most prestige clubs don't win European trophies (they generally go to the Barcelonas, Milans and Man Utds), so why worry about them?
Ultimately, football is meant to be about entertainment, and I know I'd rather have cheap access to entertaining games, with beer, sausages and train journeys thrown in, than have to mortgage my house simply to watch a one-sided thumping of of some top-division makeweights.
11 April 2010 2:16AM
Terrible to watch though.
11 April 2010 2:19AM
I agree totally HughD, but a couple more observations if I can...
I've always felt it was a blessing germany losing it's fourth champions league spot because it's meant there is no fourth placed safety net that we have in England which has allowed us to create the so called big 4.
Also it seems Bayern sign the best players of their rivals (Olic, Altintop, Gomez), or those players are sold abroad (Diego) so Bayern can't get them meaning no one can build a squad long enough to reap the rewards of contiinued champions league football except Bayern.
The other thing that is bad about German football is the 36 team top two divisions, even in France (where they can take or leave football) they have 40 teams in their top two divisions (which was challenged last season by frankfurt apparently and shot down by the let's not share our pie brigade), add to the fact that German promotion relegation is essentially 2 up, 2 down with a play-off it seems more and more like a closed shop to me with potentially only 11% of the league changing every year. Oh and before Germans mention the winter break, there are plenty of free dates in the spring and autumn to play the four extra games a 20 team league requires.
11 April 2010 2:22AM
"The Bundesliga is a perfect league"
Oh yeah...
This is the umpteenth almost identical article in the guardian about the superiority of german football culture, and it's becoming as tedious as the wanking over barcelona.
Anyone with any football knowledge knows these things already, we don't need to be told again, and again, and again..
It'd be more worthwhile to propose some achievable ways english football can be improved, although that would mean you'd have to work to produce something original for a change.
11 April 2010 2:24AM
All well and good but by no means the whole picture.
Dortmund and Schalke have huge financial overdrafts brought about by excessive spending and but for understanding bank managers would have been closed down by now. The cheap tickets for instance are not sustainable. Both clubs are practically gasping for more money.
Schalke I think have the kind of eye watering expenditure that would make even premier league clubs squeal for mercy.. Try 100,000 per week for moving the pitch in and out of their fancy stadium. So many financial directors have fallen on their sword and with the advent of Felix Magath, he is now not only the manager of footballing affairs, but also in charge of the balance sheet too. In a style more common with English club management.
I am no expert on this, but if you are going to make these comparisms, you surely have to look beyond the issue of cheap tickets and huge stands. Dortmund have been in financial meltdown for years.
There is a time and place for good housekeeping stories and football clubs, but this should not be one of them.
Must do better.
11 April 2010 3:07AM
Erm Jamie - hasn't this topic already appeared (or at least been a sub-topic) a couple of times on this blog? Oh yes, this is an Observer article. Gottit.
Anywho, even as a Dortmund fan, I have to agree with Speaktruth, there is always the risk of silly overspending, and Dortmund and S*****e have been very guilty of that. Dortmund almost went bankrupt and the old joke about S*****e is that they are always paying three gaffer's salaries, the current, the most recent (who they sacked in contract) and the next one (preparing for the next panicked sacking).
Yes the BL is great for the fans with decent prices, excellent transport and tasty snacks. Yes there are too many TraditionsVereine outside the top division (Kaiserslautern, St. Pauli, 1860 Munich, anyone from the old East), but for the most part, it does work.
I don't think that anyone will argue with the success of the national team over the decades, so what does this all mean?
That if you think of your customers, and are sensible in your financial management, you will have a successful business. Next!!
11 April 2010 3:55AM
Given that England has a population of, what, 50m (?) and Germany about 82m people, you should probably expect the Bundesliga to muster an average attendance of 42,000 compared to the EPL's 36,000. As it stands, the EPL musters an average attendance of about 85% that of the Bundesliga from a population only 60% of the size.
Having said that, I'm not really picking any issue with the article. My one and only experience of a Bundesliga game was the lovely stadium in Freiburg, which backs up against the Schwarzwald. Stood on one of the end terraces, and once I had downed my first two beers, was able to turn the seemingly indestructible plastic cups upside down and stand on them to get the extra height I needed!
11 April 2010 4:09AM
Are the Bundesliga's crowds not due to the fact that Germany has a population 60% higher than England with much fewer professional teams?
11 April 2010 4:28AM
The overall population of the countries is pretty irrelevant, you'd need to look at the populations where the teams are actually based.
11 April 2010 4:46AM
If I'm not the first person to reply: "Typical Germans" than you should all consider yourselves a disgrace.
11 April 2010 5:18AM
Someone throw me a bone here ... why does Borussia Dortmund have "the largest stand in the world", holding 26,000 people when, last I checked, the Maracana in Brazil holds more than 200,000?
Btw, the Bundesliga sounds great, if you're German.
11 April 2010 5:24AM
Stand != stadium, perhaps? And the Maracana doesn't hold 200k seated, which is what the figures are usually given in.
11 April 2010 6:15AM
@ supermj
I think the league of 18 clubs has served Germany pretty well over the last 45 years. I don't know what two more mediocre teams playing in midtable for nothing would be in aid of.
@ wordsmith /11 Apr 2010, 5:18AM
Must have bee quite a while ago. Hint: give Wikipedia a go.
Else, what I respect about the Bundesliga is the membership based concept of the clubs - unlike the company based British model. I still don't know why I would support someody else's company.
11 April 2010 6:22AM
Hi everyone,
This was a decent article.
I have a question for the readers tho that is completely unrelated and a bit odd maybe. A couple of weeks back on the "Our Favourite Things This Week" section in the football section of this website mentioned a website and I am going crazy trying to find it. I don't remember the name and can't seem to find it on Google. The website is a football website of course but its match reports and the website is general focuses extensively on tactics. I was wondering if any of you know what site that is? I would really appreciate the help.
Cheers
11 April 2010 6:31AM
The Bundesliga is far from a fairytale league - even though it may appear to be in comparison with the other leagues. A measure of financial prudence and ownership restriction is hardly worth harping on about - it's more surprising that in other countries orgiastic debts, dubious investors and fan acceptance have let it happen.
Prices in the Bundesliga have risen considerably over the past few years; more business tickets, less terracing and an increase in the prawn-sandwich brigade. Kick-off times have also been spread - the days of a 15:30 kick-off for all clubs sacrificed on the altar of television rights - not that it is necessarily a bad thing to be able to catch them on telly...
All in all not much to this article that has not been regurgitated at length elsewhere, but anyone familiar with the Bundesliga and the match day rituals of beer, bratwurst and chants on the terraces will not disagree that it is a (comparatively) fan-friendly league.
11 April 2010 6:42AM
The true story about Borrusia Dortmund, a "Typical English" football club based in Dortmund, North Rhine-Westphalia and is best known as once upon a time one of the most successful clubs in German association football.
At the turn of the millennium, Borussia Dortmund became the first ? and so far the only ? publicly traded club on the German stock market. Two years later they won their third Bundesliga title. Borussia Dortmund had a remarkable run at the end of the season to overtake Bayer 04 Leverkusen, securing the title on the final day. In the same season Borussia lost the final of the 2002 UEFA Cup to Dutch side Feyenoord.
Dortmund's fortunes have steadily declined since then. Poor financial management led to a heavy debt load and the sale of their Westfalenstadion ground. The situation was compounded by failure to advance in the UEFA Champions League 2002?03 when Borussia Dortmund was eliminated on penalties in the qualifying rounds by Club Brugge. Borussia was again driven to the brink of bankruptcy in 2005, the original ?11 value of its shares having plummeted by over 80% on the Frankfurter Wertpapierbörse (Frankfurt Stock Exchange). The response to the crisis included a 20% pay cut to all players.
The team still plays at the leased Westfalenstadion, named after its home region of Westphalia. To raise capital, the stadium was renamed Signal Iduna Park, after a local insurance company, in 2006 under a sponsorship agreement that runs until 2011. The stadium is currently the largest football stadium in Germany with a capacity of 81,264 spectators, and hosted several matches in the 2006 FIFA World Cup, including a semi-final. Borussia Dortmund enjoys the highest average attendance of any football club in Europe, at Average attendances of European football clubs per match (2007/08).
Current notables on Borussia Dortmund roster include Alexander Frei, Sebastian Kehl, Roman Weidenfeller, Dedê, Nuri Sahin. The team suffered a miserable start to the Fußball-Bundesliga 2005?06 season, but rallied to finish seventh. Borussia Dortmund failed to gain a place in the UEFA Cup via the Fair Play draw. The club's management recently indicated that Borussia Dortmund again showed a profit, however this was largely related to the sale of David Odonkor to Real Betis and Tomas Rosicky to Arsenal F.C..
In the Fußball-Bundesliga 2006?07 season, Borussia Dortmund unexpectedly faced serious relegation trouble for the first time in years. The team went through three coaches and appointed Thomas Doll on 13 March 2007 after dropping to just one point above the relegation zone. Christoph Metzelder also left Borussia Dortmund on a free transfer.
In the Fußball-Bundesliga 2007?08 season, Borussia Dortmund has lost to many of the smaller clubs in the Bundesliga. This season was one of the worst in 20 years. Nevertheless they reached the DFB Pokal final against FC Bayern Munich where they lost 2?1 in extra time. The final appearance qualified Dortmund for the UEFA cup because Bayern already qualified for the UEFA Champions League.
11 April 2010 6:57AM
that would be www.zonalmarking.net
11 April 2010 7:05AM
Sauravfrmnepal
You're thinking of '
League structure and fixturing
As far as I'm aware, the only thing the Bundesliga has over the Premier League is that it has 18 teams in the league.
20 teams is too much for the Premier League. The gulf in quality is exposed far too often. So I would prefer if they cut two teams from the Premier League (although I'm not sure how that would affect commercial rights).
That said, 18 teams also means 34 fixtures - presto, you've solved another problem: no fixture congestion, player burnout, and we can take a two week break in January!
While I'm at it, can someone please scrap the League Cup. Just have the FA Cup! All of a sudden, you increase the value and importance of the FA Cup, while reducing the number of fixtures!
Bundesliga 2nd division also has 18 teams. The English 2nd division has 24 teams. Incredibly daft if you ask me, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
Finances
The course that the Premier League has taken has made it the most attractive and popular football league in the world. You can talk about prudence and financial parity all you want, but you can't argue with what a success the league has become.
The great thing is that while Manchester United or Liverpool has debt, they're not going anywhere. Through financial doping they've become the brands that they have, and best of all, a number of English clubs are more profitable than many German clubs will ever be.
Someone will always be there to bail out a Liverpool or United if they get into strife. Mind you, Manchester United never needed to possess the debt that they do today. We all know the reasons.
Arsenal's debt is as a result of the Emirates, and they are slashing that debt faster than anyone could imagine.
Liverpool, again victims of external forces, will be bailed out. Chelsea's debt completely wiped by Abramovich in the form of shares.
Then there are clubs like City or Villa, who without the prestige of the Premier League would probably have never found owners who are not there to bleed the club. Same can be said of Chelsea.
Ticket prices
As far as I'm aware, there are plenty of people willing to pay the prices in the Premier League. They are not being taken advantage of - the people are the ones who are complicit in the sale of expensive tickets. They wouldn't be expensive if people weren't prepared to pay for them. If people start staying away in droves, prices will come down. It's just how the world works.
Football fans aren't entitled to cheap ticket prices. What happened 30 years ago is entirely irrelevant.
AND, here's the clincher, average crowds are higher than they have ever been. Considering there is so much entertainment available today, that's quite an achievement.
Standard
Just one sentence needed here: The Premier League is technically far superior to the Bundesliga, and while Bundesliga matches can be entertaining, the level of play is undeniably better in England.
Standing in terraces
Stadiums in England are some of the best in the world, and I think this debate needs to fade away. If people want to create a better atmosphere, they are more than entitled to do so in all-seater stadiums. Re-introducing standing won't guarantee anything.
Overall, much ado about nothing. I think the Premier League is in a much more enviable position than the Bundesliga. There is really nothing it needs to learn from the Bundesliga.
11 April 2010 7:17AM
My friend, are you Derk in disguise?
11 April 2010 7:45AM
miroljub
Sadly, I don't understand the Derk reference. A Google search didn't help me either. On another note, the Premier League is in a better position than the Bundesliga, irregardless of all that's happened.
11 April 2010 7:45AM
A very good article. I'll try to keep it brief but there's SO much I could say.
We have been travelling to Bundesliga games for five years now. It has the perfect balance of 1980s fanbase attitude with 21st century grounds. Every footy fan should stand in Schalke's Nordcurve at least once in their life.Outside the grounds fans mix freely, there's a heavy police presence and we've never seen any trouble despite the fact that cheap alcohol is sold at stands everywhere. Grounds are brilliantly served by public transport.
Tickets can be got from internet exchanges ( or if you're happy seating, from Dortmund's german speaking website by email!!) and standing in Dortmund's home end of 25,000songs and flags with pints of their lovely Brinkhoffs is a quite amazing experience.
Dortmund, Bochum, Schalke, Leverkusen, Koln and Bor Moenchengladbach are all within 100 miles around the Rhine which is about 3 to 4 hours from Calais. Even Bundesliga II teams like Duisberg and Aachen have great atmospheres and are easy to get to.
With Friday night and Monday night football, it's possible to get 4 games in in 4 days ( we've done it!) - a great summer weekend!
Tips/quirks: Schalke ground is cashless. You buy a card, load it up and queues are small. Holiday Inn, right outside Frankfurt's Commerzbank arena. Koln - amazing nightlife. Dortmund - Brinkhoffs!!
11 April 2010 7:49AM
The Premier Leaguel is more global than the German Bundesliga, ask yourself why.
The Bundesliga is financially sounder than the Premiership, because of less debt.
This may be true, but you also have to see how this work.
For instance Bayern Munich and Arsenal have a new stadium. While AFC financed the whole project by itself and is now in debt, Bayer M. got a bit of financial help from the Bavarian government.
Imagine AFC would have got some money from the City of London for building its stadium.
11 April 2010 8:02AM
Is it what you think about the league that owe 56% of European total footballing debt?
11 April 2010 8:13AM
Vidic
you need to go to see a game, i think. I reckon you will see the difference and see where the PL misses out. A game in Cologne or auf Schalke or even in Leverkusen (whose fans are seen as a bit of a letdown in comparison) will always generate a stadium atmosphere that you'll only find in some of the derbys in the UK.
11 April 2010 8:25AM
The vast majority of that debt is a result of the lack of regulation imposed on the ownership of English clubs - not due to obscene speculation and clubs living beyond their means.
It's precisely that sound financial footing and inherent profitability which undoubtedly attracted the leveraged buyouts of Man Utd and Liverpool.
And this laizze faire attitude to ownership exhibited by the supposed custodians of the game means clubs are vulnerable to the whims of bored billionaires and charlatan wannabe's.
Of course the Germans have it right. They are nothing if not generally organised, sensible and altruistic. They have an introspection completely absent from these Isles, and a socialistic orientated society completely at odds with British neo-Thatcherism.
English teams can never mimic this system as the laws governing finance, the morons at the FA and the adversarial partisanship at club level are too deeply entrenched. To say nothing of the mindset of the average Britain.
11 April 2010 8:31AM
"This is borne out by Germany being European champions at under-17, under-19, and under-21 level. "
Germans are rebuilding again. Premiership might be nice and cosy now but let's have a look in 5 years or so. Seems like an awful lot of home grown German talent is about to make its presence felt.
11 April 2010 8:32AM
TheLowestFormOfWit
I don't really care about an atmosphere. I'm someone who thinks the Emirates and Old Trafford have a great atmosphere usually. I've seen Bundesliga games on television, and I'm indifferent to the noise and flag waving. I'm more concerned about what I'm watching on the field. And in that respect, the PL wins hands down. Who makes more noise is not really a barometer of a great league for me personally. A half empty stadium in Serie A could make more noise than any in the Bundesliga, but that doesn't mean we should be jumping to copy them.
11 April 2010 8:34AM
Come on Murdoch........wade in there and ruin it.
11 April 2010 8:37AM
I guess that should be 'Briton'? United Kingdomer. Stiff upper lip-per. Lard butties with dirty thumbprints. Village cricket and binge-drinking. Used to own America. Hereditary regal insanity. You know the chaps.
11 April 2010 8:53AM
Let's just put a few things right here. Firstly, I agree totally with neconst in that being in the black does NOT equate with debt. Please compare like with like.
Secondly, England's population estimate in 2009 was 51.5 million and Germany's was 81.8 million. Using the percetage of 63%, the EPL on that basis should be getting an average attendance of 26,400, so its 35,592 is on average better.
Thirdly, supermj makes a valid point about the DBL. The leaugues outside of the Premier and Second are cash-strapped and only teams which can find a millionaire benefactor like Dietmar Hopp at Hoffenheim have any chance to make it through to the Bundesliga.
Fourthly, because of the lowest level of players' wages, not many of the top players want to play in the DBL (vid. Ribbery wants to go). This means that there are many players from the former East Bloc countries filling out positions at many clubs.
Fifthly, the advantage, however, of not having many of the top players in your league is that the clubs are more or less forced to bring through German grown talent. One good reason why the German national side is consistently better than England..
Finally, the actual quality of play in the games in the DBL is quite poor and even the "great" Bayern München only fires on all cylinders 2 or 3 times a season. This is why they are all raving currently since Robben arrived and pepped up their play.
Oh, and Jamie, whilst Lahm started his career at Bayern, he actually didn't become the good player he is today until he was loaned out for 2 years to Stuttgart. So much for home-grown players.
11 April 2010 8:56AM
A case of sport reflecting societal norms and values, I think.
Britain has become an unhealthy, miserable, rip-off society, but in Germany, it's citizens are, in my view, happier, healthier and more contented.
11 April 2010 9:05AM
@neconst
You say debt is NOT a bad thing?
Are you serious?
11 April 2010 9:11AM
amazing, i would imagine germans would scoff at paying 30-40 euros to watch a 3.bundesliga match.
11 April 2010 9:12AM
It seems that the Bundesliga is not an enormous launderette, unlike several others, with England on top
11 April 2010 9:14AM
@ e2theeyepie
While I broadly agree with your assessment of the friendliness of BL games, I would just qualify that I wouldn't recommend any Brits (or really anyone else) attending the RevierDerby between Dortmund and Schalke. Violence is not unknown at that fixture.
@ miroljub
Nice excerpt on BvB except that after the most recent African Nations Cup and the England v Egypt friendly, I think Mohammed Zidan deserves a mention.
@ hojo
Yes, yes and yes. I thoroughly agree about the challenges at the Amateur level (3rd and below). Also the comments about wages and how this impacts on who plays and who leaves. These days Bayern Munich are the only club who seem to be able to bring in "stars" (actually I do think RibRob deserve that title).
Speaking of Amateurs - hojo - weren't you a Wuppertaler? How are the WSV going these days? Still at the Zoostadion?
11 April 2010 9:15AM
With regard to ticket prices - if a stadium is full then the prices are not too expensive as all of the tickets have been sold - the basic law of pricing to the market.
But if the stadium is half empty then ticket prices are too expensive, unless that is the maximum number of interested people in that area.
So Bolton, for example, may not increase their turnover by halving the price of tickets, as they may only drag in another 10% of supporters. Perhaps the inhabitants of Bolton (or Wigan, Burnley, Blackburn etc) would rather pay higher prices at Man Utd or Man City to watch the best players etc.
It isn't as simple as lowering prices, it's about getting more people to see football as entertainment for the family, making it easily accessible, making it possible to decide on the day that it would be a good way to spend the day, making the meat pies better quality:-).
Oh and also making the game more of a sporting event by improving the standards of sportsmanship, and embracing modern technology.
11 April 2010 9:16AM
Oh and one more @ hojo.
Yes Mr. SAP did throw his euros behind Hoffenheim, but it isn't like they went all Chelski and bought up every name in sight. Their team sheet is (and has been) pretty low profile.
11 April 2010 9:28AM
Stoke, Blackburn, Wolves, Burnley, Boton, West Ham, Sunderland, and O'Neills Aston Villa now that's the sort of quailty you don't find in the Bundesliga
11 April 2010 9:33AM
German football fans are like ones out of crap films. They all wear scarves and sing rowdy yet unaggressive songs walking through the train stations.
They all support the German team in Europe, even if it's their biggest rival in the league. And the kits are simply fucking awful.
Basically, they haven't got a clue. They need to work hard to learn the fine art of genuine thuggery, blind hatred and money-driven insanity.
11 April 2010 9:44AM
@ Vidic15
While the top four in the PL are indeed better than their German counterparts the average is higher in the Bundesliga - lowly teams can beat the top teams on occassion and as stated in the article teams apart from Bayern regularly win the Championship. While there are quite a few foreign players in the Bundesliga, i have yet to think of a team in the Bundesliga that does not feature a single German - as the equivalent Arsenal does in the PL.
I would suggest you actually visit a BL game before you spout opinionated drivel.
11 April 2010 9:44AM
Give the Premier League a break. Maybe it has become a litle bit tired of being a role model for the of the world?
11 April 2010 9:55AM
Of course in England,the FA long ago handed over the running of the game to the Murdoch empire. Now we have a game structured to fit in with its TV schedules and designed to keep the SKY 4 as the main attraction.
While our boring predictable league is played out to the disinterest of most neutral football fans clubs 'real' football clubs are being extinguished every month......Chester, Scarborough, Kings Lynn etc. Now Stockport are about to go out of business despite living in the shadows of the world's richest club.
The English game stinks to high heaven.