Date Posted:2/20 7:00pmSubject:
The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
Okay, Oh Great and Wise Mods, I know we already have a Mary Sue thread. Please keep reading before you lock.
Just as Mara Jade chastises Anakin Solo for using the Force as a crutch in Dark Tide I: Onslaught, this thread is for discussing how the Force is sometimes used as a crutch in storytelling.
By definition the Force is all encompassing. This means that as far as we've been shown, both throught the movies and through the novels, that there is almost nothing that can't be done with the Force as long as the being manipulating the Force can believe and imagine it, ie "Size matters not." "There is no try, only do." yadda yadda.
This sense of limitlessness in what the Force is capable of can sometimes lead to the tendency to use it as a quick fix to get out of a situation where a writer is has back themselves into a corner, plot wise. In that sense, the Force is kind of like a Mary Sue, it can do everything and everyone loves it (so to speak ).
Okay, so has anyone experienced this in their writing? I know that I have at times. Does anyone have any suggestions about avoiding this tendency or any suggestions about what they've done to recognize this tendency?
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Date Posted:2/20 7:17pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
Actually I think the term in fiction would be closer to deus ex machina, which is an unexpected or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly to resolve a plot.
Writing in Star Wars it's definitely a concern. Even Luke's use of the Force in profic recently has been borderline. The one nice thing is that Denning always shows the consequences of the use. I try to remember that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So we see Luke in the Dark Nest Trilogy actually aging from the exertion. So say I wouldn't expect Anakin Skywalker to think a building into collapse and at the same time show no toll on him personally.
It's always a good thing to keep in mind when composing our stories and examining where our plots are going.
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http://www.lominalecantina.com The wicked flee when no man pursueth... ~so says the Bible If you burn your neighbor's house down, it doesn't make your house look any better. ~Lou Holtz
Date Posted:2/20 7:27pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
THANK YOU for starting this thread! I am so sick of reading about the "all powerful nose picking Force" (as one of my Crechlings just put on his app) in fanfic and even profic these days. Whatever happened to equal and opposite reactions (if I may quote you, TKL)?
It is way, way too late for me to try and articulate anything intelligent of my own but I will be back tomorrow.
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Date Posted:2/20 7:33pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
I have the opposite problem... I keep putting characters into situations that would be really rough for a non-Force user, and sometimes fail to take into account that for a Jedi (or a Sith, Or Dark Jedi, or whatever as the case may be) it might not be so bad because the Force could get them out. Especially since some of the Jedi are so powerful now in the DN3-and-later era it's almost difficult to find problems for them that they will have trouble handling without resorting to acceptable but often overused plot devices like the bad guys holding someone hostage. (It doesn't help that profic uses the Force as a very pliable plot device as well.)
The only EU era that I've read quite a bit of is the post-RotJ period, so I don't know if this happens as much with earlier eras, but I keep seeing that more and more in canon, and it is not easy to come up with things to throw at the Jedi that they couldn't just use the Force to deal with, when push comes to shove, in profic.
I can see how using the Force as a crutch would be easy to do, but honestly I don't think there's a whole lot that it can't do canonically - the trick is that there would be some sort of consequence, or that not every Jedi would be strong enough and trained enough to do the task or at least not do it safely.
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Date Posted:2/20 7:35pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
TKL is correct.
The Force has long been handled as the biggest, baddest Deus ex Machina in existence.
With it, Luke can rebuild castles, feel people die, pilot the Falcon all by his little ole lonesome self and my all time favorite, bring himself back to life, not once, but twice.
And that is the pro fic.
With those examples, it is not unexpected that fanfic-ers would hold the Force as the 'get out of jail free' card for their writing.
Also, just as TK said, if you have your Jedi do something nigh upon impossible, then there needs to be ramifications. Luke's illusion caused aging, Luke playing with the Dovin Basil's voids caused exhaustion.
The other thing, is that nigh upon impossible power display should be a logical progression of an existing power or attribute that some Jedi has done.
Example of the good: the illusions, that was a more extreme use of the skill as learned from the Fallanasi
Example of the bad: we have Jedi with their healing trances, and their ability to control their bio-patterns (muscle control, nerve control, senses control, etc) all of the sudden, being 'given' life energy from badgers and worms.
Date Posted:2/20 8:06pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
I am so sick of reading about the "all powerful nose picking Force" (as one of my Crechlings just put on his app) in fanfic and even profic these days.
See, I would be one of those kids who washes out of the five-step padawan program and gets thrown in the AgriCorps. While all of my fellow students were practicing and studying and all of those other things that good little Forcespawn do, I'd be picking my nose with the Force, crashing "Ultimate Fight Championships" on Coruscant, and trying to pick up women by using Jedi/Force-related pickup lines ("Heh heh want to see my lightsaber, etc.) - and failing when they realize I force-choke in my sleep.
Anyway, back on topic, I'd have to agree. The Force is interesting because it allows for much more than is possible in the world we know, but once you use it as that "get out of jaii free" card every time the characters get into a fix and once you have superhero-caliber Force users flinging planets at each other while doing crossword puzzles it starts to weaken the credibility and coherency of the plot and it begins to show in your story as a whole. Not to mention, it doesn't make things very interesting. How can a reader really feel any sense of tension or concern for a character who has been known to implode suns when he/she gets a Jeopardy question wrong? They know the character always has an out, and will never take seriously any threat they face.
In order to avoid from doing that (and it is tempting at times to make a "Neo" in the Star Wars Universe), I try to keep a humanistic perspective when approaching my Force-sensitive characters. Even among the most powerful of them, I always paint them as beings who suffer from indecision, confusion, and even doubt (whether Luke Skywalker or a Hutt-Jedi) when delving into a deeper understanding of the Force. They are beings like us who use the Force to enhance their abilities, not Force-users who are occassionally beings like us. And as such, they can even make mistakes. I find that when you build a character from that perspective - powerful but not a lightning-bolt tossing Thor - you tend to avoid placing yourself into situations where it proves difficult to excavate yourself and the character without stooping to a belief-suspending improbable Force-aided escape.
After all, we've not seen anything to suggest the Jedi are god-Kings who manipulate the fabric of time and space for fun on weekends. Even Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan chose to flee from two Destroyer Droids, and they were accomplished Jedi. Sure, we've seen Yoda and Sidious tossing Senate pods at each other, but they were presented as the absolute pinnacle of their kind. Like I said, just exercise restraint when assigning abilities to your characters or you'll end up with a cast that seems at home on Mount Olympus than Corellia.
If the reader can at least relate to them at least on some level, I think you've . There's nothing wrong with using the Force as a plot device - after all, that's basically Star Wars in a nutshell - but never forget it's the characters who make things interesting. As TKL said, if you're going to go with extremely powerful Force users, I would try to demonstrate incredible actions by the difficulty of their accomplishment. Just as Yoda didn't look like he was drinking a strawberry daiquiri on Tahiti while he was holding back Sidious' force lightning, see what you can do to temper the improbability by emphasizing the reason the character is able to do it, the effort needed to achieve it, and the consequences (see TKL's post) of it.
In my opinion, that would make for a far more interesting work. Don't be afraid of using the Force to further the plot, but just make sure it's in keeping with who you are dealing with. You wouldn't see Saesee Tinn levitating folks like Dooku, and if Bail tried to absorb a gout of force lightning he'd probably just end up with a bad case of indigestion.
Herman Snerd Title: - Archive Editor Registered:Oct '99
Date Posted:2/20 8:21pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
- Date Edited:2/20 8:22pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:Herman Snerd
It brings to mind a problem that James Fenimore Cooper had with his famous character.
In the second and third books of the Leatherstocking Tales series (chronologically), Natty Bumpo was written as such a larger than life woodsman character that it's basically impossible for him to be bested in that setting, so Cooper had to work around that. It would have been inconceivable for someone to sneak up on him and kidnap one of his companions, but if Natty wasn't around, then it was okay.
It's a huge problem to have a hero who is too far above his contemporaries in ability. The hero is good only if he defeats a believable villain, and with no Sith to draw on post-ROTJ, the number of contrivances to counteract the abilities of the Jedi has had to grow. Myrkr anyone?
And as with popular fables, the hero gets more and more powerful with each re-telling throughout the generations. It seems to be the same deal with different authors handling Jedi powers. A sort of one-upsmanship
Qui-Gon lamented that young Anakin was right that nobody could kill a Jedi, but he knew it wasn't so. Speaking as someone who quit reading the EU quite a while ago, is it still believable that someone 'ordinary' could face off with a Jedi and win?
The Force too often seems to make characters so super-human that they're really not human at all (or whatever the species may be).
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Date Posted:2/21 4:14amSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
Great idea for a thread! I seem to remember there being a similar discussion about this some time ago (I've been away for a long time, so I mean quite some time ago ) about Jedi that are written solely for the purpose of slice'n'dice action sequences. More or less if a force-using character is written for the purpose of being able to say "Look! My Jedi character is just the best thing to happen to the universe ever!", then there's problems.
You've always gotta take these things back to basics. If you think about why the Force was written into Star Wars in the first place - I mean waaay back in the day of the first drafts of Luke Starkiller and the Journey to the Great Planet-Destroying Orb, or whatever GL originally penned - then you can kinda get a grasp of what the Force is all about. GL didn't write it so everyone would think "Wow, those Jedis sure are the bizniss." It was a plot device to separate the main characters from the secondary ones. There needed to be two primary characters that somehow embodied the opposing sides and wielded enough power to symbolically play out the inevitable battle between those two sides, if that makes sense.
There's nothing wrong with using the Force as a plot device - after all, that's basically Star Wars in a nutshell - but never forget it's the characters who make things interesting.
That's the crux of the matter, Exeter. The force is a plot device, but was never intended as a miracle cure to the problems of the galaxy. In the end it wasn't the force that killed the Emperor but an internal character struggle between right and wrong.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Force is less a mystical power for the characters than it is a mystical power for the author. In my opinion it should only be used to underline and reinforce already existing elements of the plot, never to create new elements of the plot and overcome them purely on its own merits. If you stick to that sort of logic, then it's very much possible to have a non-force user square off against a Jedi and come away the winner because the battle between them isn't about the force, it's about their character development up until that point.
Ha, I'm sorry if that sounded a bit confusing. It's late at night over here
Date Posted:2/21 4:38amSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
- Date Edited:2/21 7:55am (1 edits total)
Edited By:Inara
While I will concede that Jedi powers and mysticism is the core of Star Wars, I also think that the Force users have become too powerful.
The Jedi in Dark Nest were becoming too powerful (almost KOTOR level, in fact). Even though Denning showed some consequences of such blatant displays of power, Luke's invisibility trick (and he really doesn't need to be aging a whole year in a five minute span), Jacen's "hiding" from the assassin bugs and when he left a message in the future, and even when Jaina used the Force on the pilot's flight stick, really downplayed prequel era Jedi like Obi-wan Kenobi (who, in Denning's hands, would have shut off the Death Star's tractor beam using the Force while sitting in the Falcon lounge playing holochess with Artoo).
Being so powerful in the Force doesn't do anything for one's character. After all, Luke was great in TTT even though he was without the Force. He didn't have it as a crutch on Wayland. He could only rely on his wits, his knowledge, and his training - and that is what made him really shine. Obi-wan killed Grievous using parlor tricks (that handy little trick of pushing him around - Obi-Wan did not just reach out with the Force and open his organ compartment). Traitor was great because we saw Jacen as a strong person without the Force.
It's why I enjoy Zahn's novels. I like how he makes things more challenging for the Jedi, such as in SQ. A lot of people didn't like the fact that it took Luke and Mara so long to deal with that droideka, but it was a nice change from Luke blasting it with his eyes closed.
But perhaps the Jedi have always been this powerful, and the waning of the Jedi Order towards the end of the Old Republic narrowed the ways a Jedi could use his powers (especially taking KotoR into account), but it's still hard for me to accept, especially after so many years of more subtle displays of the Force.
I tend to use an understated approach in my writing. Making a Jedi invulnerable doesn't make a story fun, and it can make a plot weaker when there is an easy solution. For example, in of my fics, Jacen tries to cut through a wall, but the lightsaber has a difficult time cutting through it, and it's easier just to break through it with a big vehicle.
I like seeing Jedi sweat, and at times, I like to see the Force not be the best solution to a problem.
DarthBreezy Title:CR Mos Everett Fan Force Registered:Jun '02
Date Posted:2/21 7:34amSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
Kidan posted:TKL is correct.
The Force has long been handled as the biggest, baddest Deus ex Machina in existence.
With it, Luke can rebuild castles, feel people die, pilot the Falcon all by his little ole lonesome self and my all time favorite, bring himself back to life, not once, but twice.
Oh Lord.....
OK, feeling people die I'll give a pass for - after all it's a change of a state of being, but as for the rest?
*Waits for some rogue Jedi to use the Force when the Charmin is gone.*
JadeSolo Title:Bathrobed Fan Fiction Manager Registered:Sep '02
Date Posted:2/21 7:47amSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
I sometimes liken the Force in a fanfic to playing a SW videogame. No, really, there's a point to this.
Take "Jedi Knight," for instance. You have cheat codes that give you umlimited weapons, ammo, Force powers, plus the ability to fly, "turn off" enemies, and skip whole levels. There are also secrets that give you bonus Force points, so to speak, that you can later divvy up among the various Force powers you'd like to have. But then, why waste points on Force healing when you've got a cheat code to bring your health and shields back to full?
That would be a Jedi who can get out of every scrape simply with a flick of the hand. Or in this case, a click of the mouse button, and the code to turn off enemies.
The limitations of a Jedi with the Force are shown through playing the game like it's meant to be played. That means Force jumping over a huge canyon instead of using the cheat code to fly, which then means you'll have to save often and maybe redo it a few times if you keep missing the ledge. The Force with limitations means looking high and low for those secrets, earning your bonus points the hard way. It means that with 30 stormtroopers and mercs coming out of the woodwork, sometimes it's better to hide and run away, rather than blast them with your unlimited ammo.
The second version is harder, it takes longer, and you feel like a fool for not knowing which switches to pull in what order. But you get your story's worth out of the plot. Not to mention those snarky one-liners from Kyle.
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Date Posted:2/21 10:30amSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
- Date Edited:2/21 10:31am (1 edits total)
Edited By:TKeira_Lea
I've mentioned this another thread but it bears repeating. Back to the equal and opposite reaction idea I go. Obviously Obi-Wan has even noted in canon that there are no limits to what a Jedi might do with the Force. And I think that's a fair mindset for a Jedi. Do, there is no try.
Even with humans of no Force potential there are moments when a person can exceed his/her ability. I had a friend literally rip the steel roof off her horse trailer when it flipped on its side. She did this with her bare hands. On a normal day, not even a strong man could have achieved what she did in the heat of the moment. There was no try.
So I believe that Jedi too can perform extreme feats in the heat of the moment.
Now, there is no way, beyond the critical exertion that a small woman could keep up such output from her body without something failing. Probably the same would hold true for a Jedi. So when considering this idea of extreme Force use at a critical juncture, I turned to a lesson I learned as a vet technician in my younger years. Polo ponies can only play at peak condition for so long. To maximize their output and speed, they are often given performance enhancing drugs. These polo ponies often perform above and beyond expectations.
The cost to the pony comes after this peak performance period. They actually go through a major down time, with low energy and lethargy. They just can't play anymore. A vet once described it to me like this -- Horses have a finite energy level, but with the drugs it's like borrowing from the pot. Here's one for you math fans -- In essence, the area under the curve for energy output of a horse will never change, but if you exceed the normal limit, then you've got to make up for the peak with a valley elsewhere. Thus keeping the area under the output level line the same.
So if we consider this in light of a Jedi, perhaps each Jedi has a different lifetime potential, but in order to perform some amazing feat he/she has to borrow from that potential. It's why in starfighter combat, Obi-Wan wouldn't just flick the buzz droids off with the Force if there was another way (or was that just a GL suspend your disbelief moment ), but Jaina might yank a stick out of a pilot's hand if there was no other possibility to achieve her end goal. Too, you have to balance the feasibility of the action.
I also tend to weigh the actions against how much energy the action would really take. To lift an X-wing the Force still has to overcome the effect of gravity. Lots of energy. To move a planet, I think a Jedi might implode from the effort. To perform a Force illusion requires reflacting light, definitely a doozy. Making a small sound happen on the other side of the tractor beam on the Death Star, down on the scale.
Too you have to be reasonable with the action. Moving a lever might be no big deal with the Force, but doing it from across the ship in a hanger never seen before, should be impossible. There is no visual or physical reference to start from for the Jedi. Really it's about perspective.
It's something to chew on, and pretty much the theory I use when balancing a Jedi's ability.
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http://www.lominalecantina.com The wicked flee when no man pursueth... ~so says the Bible If you burn your neighbor's house down, it doesn't make your house look any better. ~Lou Holtz
Date Posted:2/21 1:17pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
Excellent topic.
I think that, especally in profic, the Force is being used as too powerful. It goes along with all the bad guys in the EU being beaten in a single trilogy (Thrawn, the Killiks, Thrackan Sal-Solo, etc.). Even when they made the NJO really long so as to aviod that, it's implied that they weren't betaen as easily because the Jedi couldn't feel them in the Force.
I like that Corran Horn and his family can't lift objects with the Force. It's a handicap, but he gets around it using his gift, the ability to make people think he lifted the rock (or whatever). I think very Jedi should have a handicap like that. Maybe not something as extreme, but not everyone should be good at fighting and flying and healing. A line needs to be drawn. Jacen and Luke, especally, seem to be immortal with the Force. I liked that in Rebel Stand Leia had a hard time opening the prison door. It shows that they can't rely too much on the Force.
Because they do, it sets them apart from the 'regular' people. That was one of the downfalls of the Old Jedi Order--they were too far removed from the regular people, so those people didn't necessarily feel their loss (at least at first) when Palpatine and Vader killed them. In the last NJO books, Jag doesn't understand what about Jaina makes her so sure the Force will take care of her parents when she can't feel them in it, and it drives a small wedge between them. Like Han in AHN, he can't see or feel it, so how does he know that it exists? Only on the word of the Jedi (and in his case, seeing the effects of that use, but not everyone is that involved with Jedi. Most people would not have that benefit). Also, because the Jedi rely too much on the Force, when there are ysalamiri around, the Jedi are horribly crippled. The Force is being used too much as a crutch, and that is making it a handicap for the Jedi.
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Date Posted:2/21 3:25pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
Great answers all, and I personally feel that is a problem in my writing if I do try to make my Jedi "vulnerable" when many folks think a Jedi wouldn't be so vulnerable.
So I think of it and present it as "limits" - a Jedi can do much more than non-Jedi, but they might be tired and make mistakes, face too many enemies, whatever.
One of the somewhat early EU books actually had that Yoda and Obi-Wan could have defeated Vader but chose Luke to, as the more powerful a Jedi was, the less they liked to use their full power. I'm not quite sure I buy that view, but I can buy the view that a Jedi is aware that there is consequences, many unseen, to any action, and the older/wiser/more experienced are more aware of this than the younger.
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Date Posted:2/21 8:29pmSubject:
RE: The Force - SW's Ultimate Mary Sue
The Force can be all powerful...
...it's the Jedi that you have to set rules on, like:
-- How much attention do they have to devote to do something?
-- How much time do they need to do things?
-- How much can they really sense?
-- How fast can they move?
-- How long can they go without sleep with the Force?
There are limits to what a Jedi can do; they just need to be laid out and stuck to in a story.
I haven't been writing any Beyond the Saga fic, but whenever I get around to it I'll likely go nuts over the cortosis sheilds. ARG! they drive me nuts. And those Force-repelling critters in the Thrawn books. Double ARG! They're like Jedi kryptonite. Yech. A cheesey plot device to limit the energy field defined as being created by all life. But, oops! I guess not? Let's take back that energy field generated by all living things because it doesn't give us enough plot complications? Double yech.
Well, if you don't have the Force then that must mean that you're DEAD, at least in the GFFA. And even dead Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin STILL have the Force.
In my AU perspective, nothing 'blocks' the Force. You can block the Jedi, but not the Force.
).
) about Jedi that are written solely for the purpose of slice'n'dice action sequences. More or less if a force-using character is written for the purpose of being able to say "Look! My Jedi character is just the best thing to happen to the universe ever!", then there's problems.
